Thank you for this. I have always been very uncomfortable with this concept of polygamy in the church even though I had a testimony. I kept telling myself that I would understand one day, in the eternities.... Now everything becomes clearer and confirms the obvious contradiction between D&C 132:37-39 and Jacob 2:23-24 that always troubled me. Also, in the Volume The Saints, I was really shocked to learn that JS would have been secretly sealed to the young housekeeper when he was not yet sealed to Emma! All this does not destroy my testimony but confirms to me that, just as in the time of Christ, there is corruption among the modern scribes and Pharisees ! 🤥
While on my mission in France, I met with a newly baptized sister who just found out about polygamy. She was heartbroken. She had such a firm belief in the Book of Mormon. She said that Brigham Young was evil and wrong for starting Polygamy. She said that Joseph was a true prophet, not Brigham. Me being the know it all 20 year old missionary started to explain to her that polygamy was from Joseph Smith, not BY. But something shut my mouth, I couldn't tell her. I felt guilty not telling her and have ever since. I never considered that polygamy was not required by God. I always viewed it as a faith trial, some kind of stumbling block put in place by God to really try faith. Maybe that is complete nonsense. Maybe like the evil priesthood ban that BY taught came from JS, he did the same with Polygamy. It just doesn't make sense that Joseph Smith, mister "I make this my motto, if God commands it, I do it." Would run around secretly marrying women and girls. It always seemed inconsistent, unless God commanded him to conceal it. But why? I really hope this is true. I will have to spend some time on this. What's interesting to me is this information is not damaging my faith at all. I still have a deep testimony of the Savior, in the Book of Mormon and the restoration of the gospel. And I am excited to see how things will unfold in the future. Will this church ever be reclaimed by God, and will His power restored and greater things finally revealed. I think the Joseph ith papers project and the William Clayton Journals projects may reveal more and may be a catalyst to real change and real repentance. I will continue to be a part of it. Continue to hold my covenants as sacred, continue to love and serve others, focus more on the Savior and less on priesthood positions.
I am with you. Im so so Thankful to have been taught, in primary even to have Christ as the foundation to my testimony. The rains are tumbling down and its all good! I am excited for the future and to be part of the Church of the Firstborn!
Thank you for your account of the spirit shutting your mouth when you tried to tell that newly baptized sister Joseph started polygamy. With all the evidence now Emerging that no longer makes sense to me. Especially with the conflict between Brigham and almost all of Joseph’s surviving family including his mother.
The Book of Mormon is true. The Gospel has been twisted and turned into an abomination. D&C and the church history has been polluted by BY and his fellow pimps. The "Old Mormons" at the time saw through BY's lies and corruption. We should also!
I am coming to that understanding in my spiritual journey as well brother. We are not only commanded by the Lprd to ask him questions, but in that command he also tells us we must seek and knock as well. "You must study it out in your mind, then ask me if it be right."
In the Deseret News (July 1, 1874) Brigham Young is quoted in a speech he gave on June 21, 1874, saying he admits that he, not Joseph Smith, invented polygamy. Young reports that he had a “vision” of polygamy in England but never told Joseph: ”While we were in England (in 1839 or 1840, I think) the Lord manifested to me by vision and His spirit, things that I did not then understand. I never opened my mouth to anyone concerning them, until I returned to Nauvoo; Joseph had never mentioned this; there had never been a thought of it in the church that I ever knew anything about at that time; but I had this for myself, and kept it for myself.” - The Messenger, Volume 1, page 29. Well no one need blame Joseph anymore, for Brigham Young is the self-confessed channel for which polygamy was given to his people.” And by the way, as a historian, in my 20 years of research on this subject, I have tried posting this and several other primary sources from the time period that support your position (which is my position as well) on Wikipedia; however they keep deleting my citations, saying they’re primary sources and they aren’t “peer reviewed” and they go against the “historical consensus”; it’s absolutely maddening. Joseph Smith was definitely not a polygamist, Emma wasn’t denying Joseph’s polygamy because she was crazy or living in her own little “traumatized” world over Joseph’s supposed relationships with other wives (as Mormon historian Gracia Jones would have us all believe). Just wanted to express my thanks for your research and your posting this video, and I want to go on record as saying I endorse your info 100%!!
"Amateur Historian", or Professional Historian, .. ? Brian Hales smugly refers to anyone who doesn't agree w him as Amateur. (tho he is a retired aneasthesiologist) . We need some professional clout
Great job and very thorough! Praise be to the Lord for the Joseph Smith Papers and the truth finally being accessible to the public. May every Latter-day Saint and the whole world know the truth about Joseph Smith.
This is exactly what I have been looking for my entire life in the church, and didn't know it or where to find it. Thank you for your courage and your honest research. It is my responsibility now to ask God what is true. Again, thank you. I cannot imagine what trouble or problems with church leaders this sincere research has caused you. Are you still a member?
I think he is not, based on the titles of the other videos, but I haven't listened to them yet. I'm enjoying a polygamy podcast called 132 Problems (it's here on YT and also Spotify and probably the other places too).
@@amandadangerfieldpiano I am enjoying that series too! For the life of me, I cannot understand why the church does not address this issue clearly and honestly, looking squarely at Jacob 2 and the other evidence we have regarding Brigham Young and the emergence of section 132
More saints need to know this. I found this out by reading the Price's book a few years ago. No wonder the saints were not allowed to stay and establish Zion. If polygamy and adultery was not going on the Lord revealed in the D&C that he would send hornets across the land of Zion to rid it of their enemies. The Lord promised the people of Moses time the same thing if they would turn and trust God completely. They failed also to establish Zion. Now after 4 generations the time has come that the Lord is calling a people once again to be his and establish Zion. Pray for guidance and develop a personal relationship with Christ.
Brigham Young's statements treat women like chattel and social priesthood climbers. It is also exclusive and secret, only given to a few special ones, according to his own words. I find this to be very disturbing and I dont want any part of it. His quotes are making my skin crawl.
Fantastic work putting this together. Perfect juxtaposition of statements for consideration. It's really the crux of so many things in L-dS Church history. Is what we have taught for so many years what Joseph taught? The JST Mark 9 quotation is sobering. Why would the Lord have had Joseph make those changes? Thanks, Rob!
I just became aware of you over Thanksgiving break, through your Hemlock interview. I want to express a deep respect even love for you as you have been presented to me. I have lost faith completely. The gospel was the foundation of my life until I saw too many doctrines as untenable. Over Thanksgiving break 2024, my cousin told me about a dream he had that essentially said similar things to what you are saying and I felt a buzz in my chest. Then he recommended I listen to the interview. I did and felt such a kinship and boost of inspiration from the way you view life. It really resonated with how I wanted to live my faithful life when I believed. I will also tell you that had I heard your takes 15 years ago, I think I would not have lost my faith. That's not to say it's likely to come back. I have a love hate relationship with the concept of faith as I do with my feelings towards Jehovah, as portrayed in scripture. I am thoroughly convinced Joseph was a fraud and that he practiced polygamy, but, like you, I am open to being wrong. I will watch this with great interest and with/ out of respect for you and my cousins who feel as you do. I hope you don't mind that I often engage with content by making responses to my own initial comment, as notes of sort, especially when I can't watch in one sitting. So please feel no need to respond to any of it. I just find it a great way to engage with and attend to content. Much aloha, Braddah. Let's see what you got.
I don't know that we can couch this as either Emma is lying or Brigham. Certainly Brigham is in position to know and to lie about it, but Emma is in a less clear position. It appears Joseph wasn't forthwith about it all and she could believe his lie. It is also possible that Joseph said something like, it was not marriage or was "sealing" or something like that. I'll keep listening.
12:46 I am quite aware Joseph spoke out against it. I believe he lied. I'm hoping you eventually address the 41 wives, the Happiness letter narrative and the evidence from all those involved, why he was tarred and feathered and why Joseph would have the Nauvoo Expositor destroyed if not for polygamy or his actions with women and girls.
I agree!. LDS is rightly ridiculed for some of BY's crazier statements and doctrines. If only we could have the same level of missionary effort, but focused ONLY on God Truth, ... just imagine. Woe to these deceivers. I dont envy their position
I followed up on the sources cited and they appear to be spot on. It is time that things were questioned out loud and answers sought. If this is the Lord's true church and founded by him then it can stand a little scrutiny.
Sources like the one from Emma at 0:48 which is from an interview of Emma 35 years after Joseph’s death from the diary of a disaffected member who was ultimately involved in a religious group who killed their own leader and then became an apostle in the reorganised church and friend of Joseph smith III who went to her house with the specific agenda of proving Joseph was not involved in polygamy? Yeah, spot on.
My mind is literally blown!!! Thank you for this video. I had to go back multiple times to absorb some of what you were saying. This flies in the face of so many things I’ve been taught and told for decades related to polygamy and the prophet Joseph. More research to be done and I hope you are correct that the PJS was a monogamist. Now, my questions, and maybe these are answered elsewhere, and I’ll find them eventually, but anything you can help me with would be great: 1) If Brigham had been practicing secret, plural marriage for years or maybe just having what that one said were considered “adulterous affairs,” would Joseph not have seen it? He seemed to have exposed John C Bennett, for the same thing, but Brigham remained untouched? 2) additionally, the big elephant in the room to this would be that if Brigham had been doing a number of things against what PJS had said, and taught, and then became the prophet, or rather the leader of the church, would the church still have any official standing as the Lord’s church since it would be run by liars, philanderers and forgers? These are earnest questions and the answers can’t hurt my testimony, but this is serious stuff. It literally undermines everything through Brigham’s time as leader and calls into question everything thereafter. Christ lives. Joseph saw Him and God.
I don't have an answer for #2, but as for #1, Michelle Stone recently did a video on this. 132 Problems here on RUclips. just before Joseph went to carthage, he had learned that some in the 12 were practicing polygamy. Had he not been killed, BY and others likely would've been excommunicated just as Bennet was. Also, at the 26 minute mark it's included here, a quote from William Smith.
@@Kristy_not_Kristine thank you for replying. I had forgotten that I had made this comment and just was checking notifications this evening. I’ll go look for that video by Michelle Stone. Obviously, there’s a number of things we just can’t know in this mortal life and so we move on and move forward. We have to trust in God and Christ.
The question then becomes did they kill him. Visiting freinds somehow get pistols into the room? I came on here didn't listen and gave my best rebuke but that Joseph Smith letter doctored afyer hos death is just too damning. The fact that you can see the edits and the different handwriting and how it flips josephs whole meaning!
He was about to get after Brigham and others but then he was killled he knew he had been deceived! William Marks writes 15 years later that Joseph smith “had desired for a long time to have a talk with me on the subject of polygamy. He said it eventually would prove the overthrow of the church, and we should soon be obliged to leave the United States, unless it could be speedily put down. He was satisfied that it was a cursed doctrine, and that there must be every exertion made to put it down. He said that he would go before the Congregation and proclaim against it, and I must go into the High Council, and he would prefer charges against those in transgression, and I must sever them from the church, unless they made ample satisfaction. There was much more said, but this was the substance. The mob commenced to gather about Carthage in a few days after, therefore there was nothing done concerning it”
Jeremiah 17: 5 -6 "5 ¶ Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord. 6 For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited." Where did Brigham Young lead them? To an uninhabited salt land. So, did they get removed from Jackson county Missouri because they departed from the Lord and chose to follow flesh? Doctrine and Covenants 35: 4 and 90:6 are important. "4 Thou art blessed, for thou shalt do great things. Behold thou wast sent" forth, even as John, to prepare the way before me, and before Elijah which should come, and thou knewest it not. 6 And again, verily I say unto thy brethren, Sidney Rigdon and Frederick G. Williams, their sins are forgiven them also, and they are accounted as equal with thee in holding the keys of this last kingdom;" It looks to me as though they should have followed Sydney Rigdon and Frederick G Williams, but since they chose flesh, they get to remain in the wilderness until they return to the Lord. We should be reading Sydney Rigdon's words since Jesus called him a John the Baptist to prepare for His coming (Jesus' second coming) as well as Elijah's coming. I think that is how we return to the Lord!
Thanks for all your research on this topic - sure helps explain alot of things. Really enjoyed this presentation, can't wait until we get to know all the truth, and nothing, but the truth!
1:07 unless I missed it, you neglected to point out that Willard Richards was Brigham's cousin, very important fact for many reasons. It is hard to understand how anyone who looks at all the facts can believe that Joseph practiced polygamy. Thank you for putting out this information.
I've looked at the facts. Rob's presented half of the evidence here - anything that supports his narrative. There are dozens of journals, including 35 women who claimed to have been his wives, as well as from a number of his closest friends and confidants. I think the evidence is actually very strong against Emma on this matter.
@@TheRealDonLayton Having done the research I disagree. Todd Compton wrote a book on those alleged wives and started the book saying much of the evidence was ambiguous. And the Majority of those women were married to Brigham or Heber. And not ONE of those women claimed to be married to Joseph until his sons went to Utah telling people their father wasn't involved in polygamy. Polygamy had been out in the open for over 10 years by that time. Joseph F Smith went looking for evidence shortly after his cousins visit to Utah and he later "wrote to Orson Pratt on July 19, 1875, and stated that, as he began to put together evidence of Joseph’s involvement in polygamy and its historical unfolding, he “was astonished at the scarcity of evidence, I might say almost total absence of direct evidence upon the subject” (Brian C. Hales, Joseph Smith’s Polygamy 1:9; italics added) You should do deeper research into who was making the allegations, at what time and under what circumstances. Just because someone claimed to be close to Joseph doesn't mean they were, or that they weren't closer to Brigham and his clan or that they didn't have a reason to justify their own actions. After my research there is no doubt in my mind that Joseph had only one wife and that he never introduced polygamy to anyone.
This is one of my issues. I'm not losing sleep over it anymore as I was able to settle this issue for myself several years ago. Many women, almost all women, struggle and sweat over the idea of polygamy in the next life. I'm sure men do as well in some way.
My brother and I left the church but not the Jesus. We believe all the things that you have shown and had come to these conclusions ourselves after many hours of study. Thank you for showing the truth.
A superb treatise and testimony on Joseph Smith’s innocence of plural marriage and defense of Emma, an elect woman. He never practiced polygamy. Thank you for providing such compelling evidence and a reminder that we are responsible for seeking answers from God. When we realize it is a form of idolatry to depend solely upon the arm of flesh, may we repent and return to the Lord.
Rob this was amazing! I did the Brigamite thing for 27 years and it was the Church's denial of BY's statements that was my first crack in that faith. Thank you for such a well researched and presented presentation.
@@myeyepie I went to my Bishop in 1984 asking about the Adam/God theory. I had no issues with the teaching, I wanted to know why we didn't teach it in sunday school. Then the Bishop starts in with "Well... a prophet doesn't always speak as a prophet" And I'm thinking - "The dude is at the pulpit preaching, how is that not speaking as a prophet?
@@JordanBaumgardner you follow your bishops and all lower authorities as far as they are in line with the one keyholder, the president. The president has never said Brigham was wrong about what he said. There is no official denial of what he said, only what people interpret from what he said. Your Bishop can’t really be blamed though. Because until someone has a real necessity, they tend to just assume the cultural interpretations as if they were the gospel. In this case, most members think that because Pres Kimbal denounced the “adam-God theory” that it meant he was saying Brigham was wrong. That’s false and I uncareful logic but it is common logic. And for those that don’t really need or want to know that bad, it seems like enough so they accept it, and move on. It there is a whole lot more going on there than meets the eye. The reason the Bishop didn’t have a better answer is simply because the prophets aren’t actually allowed to answer. Alma refers to something called “the portion of the word”. That’s a small subset of truths, given to the saints to see if they will be true to and uphold it. If they do then the Lord adds line upon line. Everyone is familiar with that. But if they don’t uphold it. If they treat it lightly and delay accepting or acting on it. Or worse if they reject and resist it. Then quite another process occurs. The Lord withdraws that principle or truth from the “portion of the word” given to the saints. What does this look like? Well first the prophets start to deaccentuate that truth. If people bring it up they say it’s still in effect and they are still accountable for it and they should. But they bring it up less and less. Over process of time the prophets finally become entirely silent on the subject. If asked about it they change the subject, side step, or divert attention to another topic. As more time goes on the teaching falls into obscurity and begins to be looked at with suspicion by some members as rumor only and maybe even just a cultural thing people believed but was never really taught by the prophets. If the previous prophets words on the subject are brought up, they aren’t denied, but the importance of living prophets is accentuated and the subject is avoided again. Then bringing the subject up starts to sound heretical and dangerous to members that get almost angry anyone even ask about it. If people start taking it upon themselves to start doing the prophets job and reinterpreting the doctrine then things get interesting. These folks literally start converting people away or or out of the church with their interpretations saying that the living prophets are fallen and that they are using things from them. They tantalize people with hidden knowledge and this draws people away so that the living prophets, constrained from explaining the previously rejected truth, find a need to more directly address the deception taking place to protect the unsuspecting members. So they label the dissidents reinterpretation with a title. And then they denounce the titled reinterpretation. This is what I believe happened with Brighams words about Adam. So for folks like yourself that find it curious and want to know more about these past teachings, they are usually met with what others have found and assumed were brighams teachings but what was denounced was actually the fundamentalists interpretation of Brighams teachings. The bottom line though is that the living prophets aren’t allowed to actually answer questions on what Brigham actually taught directly. So they do their best to obey that counsel. Read any of their words about it knowing what I just said, and the careful lawyerly choice of words they use to dance around the subject start to become clear. The only way to truly understand what Brigham said is to talk to God about it and then be prepared to keep it to yourself. Why? Because then you too will be under a strict command not to impart more to others than the portion of the word. I’m not doing that. I’m just telling you about the pattern.
Beautiful presentation... thank you! You have probably read the books "Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy" 3 Volumes, by Richard and Pamela Price to get a true history of what really went on in my opinion. Knowing that the Prophet Joseph Smith never taught or lived polygamy but fought against it strengthens my faith in Christ and the restoration Joseph taught. As LDS people, we have been told many false narratives and lies respecting the Prophet, Joseph. I believe his main purpose was to bring forth the Book of Mormon and teach the true nature and character of God found in Lectures on Faith # 7 in particular. And Lecture 2 verse 55 is why we are here, to have the experience of speaking with Father and Christ "face to face!"
The prices book has been completely debunked. You would have to discredit dozens of women's journal entries and Their voices. The RLDS church tried the same argument as the Prices... But as more and more information and first person accounts have become available to the public.... Even that church has had to denounce their prior position that Joseph Smith was not a polygamist. The journal of Helen Mar Kimball is unambiguous. There are dozens more women. You cannot walk away from the three volume book of Brian Hales, a faithful member, or Lindsay Hansen Park's a year of polygamy podcast.... And still side with the Prices. It's crazy how 50-year-old arguments can be brought back up decades after being debunked.
@@randoman33just like in the allegory of the cave you are following shadows thinking they are real. Once you emerge from the cave, the light is blinding and hurts the eyes at first but only then can you finally see the truth, and once you see you can’t unsee it. It all makes sense now. IYKYK
@@kencard777 There’s too much data from too many parties from Joseph’s inner circle and antagonists that confirm Joseph Smith practiced polygamy and D&C 132 was read to the Nauvoo Council. There are affidavits made by William Law, Jane Law, and Austin Cowles that describe and corroborate key details of D&C 132 on May 4, 1844, published in the Nauvoo Expositor on June 7, 1844. Among the things about D&C 132 verified, William Law recalled it said “this is the law” and to “enter into my law.” matching D&C 132:32-34. Jane Law recalled that it authorized some men to have up to “the number of ten” wives, and that women who did not allow their husbands to have more than one wife would “be under transgression before God” matching D&C 132:61-65. Austin Cowles recalled that the revelation Hyrum Smith read to the High Council taught sealing up to Eternal Life against all sins except the shedding of innocent blood (D&C 132:26) and that David and Solomon had many wives yet in this they sinned not save in the matter of Uriah (D&C 132:38-39). In response to the Expositor Affidavits, both Joseph and Hyrum in the Nauvoo city council confirmed that these statements were not fabrications out of nothing, that indeed there was an authentic revelation received and read to the Nauvoo High Council. They even admitted that it was about polygamy, but they said it was just about polgamy in former days and/or in the afterlife. These minutes were published in the Nauvoo Neighbor on June 19, 1844. William Clayton recorded in his journal that he wrote the original revelation on July 12, 1843 as it was dictated to him by the Prophet: “This A.M, I wrote a Revelation consisting of 10 pages on the order of the priesthood, showing the designs in Moses, Abraham, David and Solomon having many wives and concubines &c. After it was wrote Presidents Joseph and Hyrum presented it and read it to E[mma] who said she did not believe a word of it and appeared very rebellious” Which Joseph Smith’s journal also says “Wednesday July 12 [1843] Receivd a Revelation in the office in presence of Hyrum & Wm. Clayton.” (Joseph Smith Papers: Journals Volume 3, May 1843-June 1844 page 57) Then one or two days later, Newell K. Whitney requested permission to have a copy made. Joseph C. Kingsbury described the copying process in 1886: ”Bishop Newel K. Whitney handed me the Revelation… the day [after] it was written or the day following and stating what it was asked me to make a copy of it. I did so, and then read my copy of it to Bishop Whitney, who compared it with the original to which he held in his hand while I read to him. When I had finished reading, Bishop Whitney pronounced the copy correct and Hyrum Smith came into the room at the time to fetch the original. Bishop Whitney handed it to him. I will also state that this copy, as also the original are identically the same as published in the present edition [1876] of the Book of Doctrine and Covenants.” Clayton later affirmed that the Kingsbury manuscript was an exact copy: “Towards evening Bishop Newel K. Whitney asked Joseph if he had any objections to his taking a copy of the revelation; Joseph replied that be had not, and handed it to him. It was carefully copied the following day by Joseph C. Kingsbury . . . The copy made by Joseph C. Kingsbury is a true and correct copy of the original in every respect. The copy was carefully preserved by Bishop Whitney.” (Andrew Jenson, “Plural Marriage,” Historical Record 6 (July 1887): 226.) Even people who were in the RLDS, whose claim of being the true Church was dependent on whether Joseph practiced polygamy or not, even admitted it was practiced. In a meeting of the RLDS First Presidency on May 1, 1865 “The Question arose as to whether Joseph the Martyr taught the Doctrine of polygamy. President [William] Marks said Brother Hyrum came to his place once and told him he did not believe in it and he was going to see Joseph about it and if he had a revelation on the subject he would believe it, and after that Hyrum read a revelation on it in the High Council and He Marks felt it was not true but he saw the High Council received it.” (RLDS First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve meeting, 1 May 1865, RLDS Archives) In 1883, RLDS apostle Zenos Gurley Jr. interviewed Leonard Soby, who confirmed that the Utah affidavits were truthful and also signed an affidavit confirming that D&C 132 was the same revelation that he heard Hyrum Smith read. Zenos Gurley Jr. resigned his apostleship in the RLDS Church in response to Soby’s testimony. Let’s also not forget that all of the women have said they were sealed to Joseph Smith, which you can read about in Brian Hale’s books. You can even see the deeds of the property he gave to some of his wives on the Joseph Smith Papers. The data is overwhelming and to deny it is to deny reality.
@deniseg.9503 You are so right!! When I learned the truth through personal revelation, I couldn't believe how clear everything was. The light was truly amazing and blinding but so beautiful
Just days before I asked in prayer 🙏 why everything is so confusing, the scriptures , the Apostles, the prophets , that many are conflicted with the coved vax . Because many are just following the prophet Neilson blindly . Threw your Resurch I HAVE ALWAYS believed that you must sort things out and take it to the lord . As you show here as well to find answers. My favorite quote from Joseph mouth . Teach the people to keep the spirt of the lord ect . I have tried to find this quote it is very hard to find . I understand this is some of the most important words that I cherish in my life . I understand so much more . Thank you . It never sat well with me when they tell you to do Resurch and they make it so hard to find it . You have done well . Thank you . I love Emma I have had many experiences with her that I understand she IS a wonderful woman.
Thank you for being bold & brave enough to reveal truth. Polygamy is not of God. Men got it wrong, some deliberately, some through error. I am excited for the future of all things being made known.
Joseph suffered all manner of persecution for the truth's sake. It makes no sense that he would lie about something God had allegedly commanded him to do just to avoid persecution. He translated the BOM and knew that there is only one who works in secret so it doesn't make sense for him to secretly be going around taking wives. It is well known that he had a close relationship with Emma and that they loved each other deeply. That wouldn't be possible if he was lying to her and taking wives behind her back nor would he do it if in D&C 132 God had commanded him to get Emma's permission. Him being involved in polygamy contradicts everything we know about him and his relationship with God and Emma.
George A Smith: "President Young has the best memory of any man on the earth." Joseph, Hyrum, Emma, Samuel, William, Joseph III, and Lucy Mac Smith: Um...
It's interesting that "Franklin D Richards said of George A. Smith that he possessed a very tenacious and powerfully retentive memory--any person or thing he ever saw or heard once committed to memory or even carefully read he seemed never to forget. He was a man of great versatility of thought and idea and seemed peculiarly adapted to that labor and responsibility." That comes from the "Writing of Joseph Smith's History" by Dean C. Jessee on page 458 at this link: byustudies.byu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/11.4JesseeWriting-0cf206e2-d48b-4b2a-b45c-59a31829d099.pdf
I re watched this for a second time, after months of reading and digging into history, I've concluded Brigham was a false Prophet as described in Ezekiel and Jeremiah, the abominations or secret abominations in scripture refer to Polygamy and or having concubines, the numbers of members "waking up to our awful condition" are the beginnings of the separation of Wheat from Tares. I noticed this time a mention of a "Secret Priesthood", could it be Satan brought some of them into his Priesthood, Mormon 8: 27, And it shall come in a day when the blood of saints shall cry unto the Lord, because of secret combinations and the works of darkness. Just a thought.
Rob, thank you for your research, your diligence in bringing so much to light, especially the truth that leaders can absolutely lead the church astray, it’s abundantly clear now! I have enjoyed your videos and posts, it’s sad that sharing this can create contention but sharing truth is vital, it’s the lies that bring contention.
Does the LDS church have the actual happiness letter? and if so do we have a public photo copy of it? It was reported to have been written by Willard Richards. We could compare it to other Willard Richards writings to find out. Also if Joseph was trying so hard to hide his private polygamy, having a letter written to explain his reason for proposing to Nancy Rigdon, was a very dumb idea.
I thought was written by John C. Bennett. In Joseph's lifetime he denied being it's author; it's crazy that it is still being attributed to him by the church!
Thank you for standing up and speaking out. I am in your debt for bringing this to my attention. I have struggled with these things for a long time and finally am coming to see what I think is the truth. I am seeking only the truth.
I become more amazed as I keep listening. Thanks for this video. In my opinion, this is such a muddled mess that the only way to get out from under it is to abandon the current structure and restore something from God individually. No more of this hero/prophet worship. It's time to put away our childish things and go straight to God, each person.
Yes, the irony of it all is that the mainstream LDS are really apostates just like the flds are and they don't even know it. It was a coup by Brigham Young to take over the church, so that he could set himself up as a king and practice is wicked behavior. He was a self righteous individual who had delusions of grandeur.
Thankfully the Church of Christ as found in the Book of Mormon has yet to be established. This scriptures, 3 Nephi 21:22 talks about the time when the branch of Joseph, the Lamanites, will again come to the truth of their Savior and the righteous followers of Christ in this land will be numbered among them: "But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance."
Well done! Used important data from other books that are difficult to read because they tilt at windmills. Especially the William Clayton missionary journals. We should doubt historical information from any of the following: Brigham Young, Willard Richards, William Clayton, and John Taylor, who set this thing up, it appears.
Siempre tuve un sentir incómodo en mi, q algo no concordaba con la historia oficial y era el caso de Emma Smith. Esto aclara mucho el panorama. Muy buen análisis de la historia con documentos y fortalece el testimonio sobre José Smith como un hombre Honorable, Verídico, y Espiritual. Es decir un Profeta real. Saludos
It appears that the record needs to be corrected as standard histories that I read continually repeat that Joseph Smith both preached and practiced polygamy. Someone needs to correct Joseph Smith's biography and the story of the LDS movement.
I’m on your side and that is why I suggest giving all the sources for all the quotes. Like the first quote from Emma, where did that come from? Thanks for the video.
I didn't keep track of the sources for all the quotes, but the first quote came from Mark Hill Forscutt's journal from an interview he did with Emma in 1877: Thur. Sep. 13/77. Spent day visiting at Nauvoo, Sister Emma (widow of the Martyr) told me that she remembered Joseph having said in answer to a question from Sister , Mother of the Brothers Brackenbury, as to whether Brigham would not lead the church in case of his (Joseph’s) death,-"I would pity the people that should follow Brigham as a leader," and in answer to another question as to why he would pity them, Joseph answered, "Because He would lead them to hell". She also related that after Brigham came into power in Nauvoo, she sought several times to see him; but did not succeed, and finally sent for him. He came, bringing witnesses with him, and enquired what she wished. She asked him why he was teaching or allowing to be taught the doctrines and practises [sic] he was [spiritual wifery and polygamy], to which he replied he knew of nothing of the kind she referred to, and if she knew of any one indulging in such practises, and would inform on them, they should be taken up and dealt with. She replied, "Why, Brigham you need not talk like that; you know these things are done. It is so plain, that even a stranger can not come and walk through our streets without witnessing it. You know too that Joseph in my presence told you that you had been teaching such things while he was alive, and that he commanded you in the name of the Lord, to teach them no more, or judgments would overtake you." He left and she had no conversation with him afterward (Mark Forscutt’s Diary, pages 81-82). This is a link to a paper on his life: www.jstor.org/stable/43201029
I thank you so much for making this information available. Many years ago my husband brought up the subject of Brigham Young. Many things about this man did not ring true and were in direct opposition to what Joseph and Hyrem Smith teached. My husband has not joined the LDS church. Presently I am still attending the church but with all the changes taking place I am having major doubts. 😢
Doubts are certainly understandable, dear Sister. But please read the Book of Mormon daily. That book is God’s Word directly to us in 2022. I received a powerful witness of Joseph Smith’s first vision. I will never forget that day. And I will never abandon Joseph Smith. He is God’s prophet of the last dispensation. Rob F is spot-on. Blessings to you
You have every good reason to have doubts about the religion that you are part of. Brigham Young was not a good person. He was a self righteous individual, who had delusions of grandeur. Emma Smith detested him for very valid reasons. Brigham was jealous of Joseph and he did everything in his power to get rid of him and Hyrum so that he could take over the church,, which he saw as a way to make himself rich and to practice his polygamy and to set himself up as a king. He used tithing money to build 4 mansions in Utah and for business adventures. When he died, he was worth $600,000, which in today's world would be roughly 16 million. I think that his take over worked out pretty well for him.
In William Claytons journal he writes the word supper in full, this leads me to believe that every time he has used the letter S he is not referring to 'supper' but to the sacrament. 'I took S with Rebecca' You can see why he would not want to write it in full. It was a ritual, sacrament and feet washing then _________.
Thank you for sharing your research! This makes so much more sense to me than the narrative I’ve been taught by the church and anti-Mormons. Thank you for the reading recommendations as well!
BY had other reasons to hate Emma - specifically that she opposed his take over of the church. She wanted her son, Joe Smith III, to take over. To this day the much smaller Community of Christ is the organization that descends from the small group of Saints that supported her. This organization owns the historic temple in Kirkland, Ohio. BY ruled the settlement in SLC as an autocrat.
I read that Emma wanted William Marks to lead the Church. Joseph III was only 11 yrs old when his father was killed. I believe Marks was the Stake President of Nauvoo. Marks wanted Sidey Rigdon to lead.
I always thought some of the stuff written about JS was incorrect in the sense that the people that wrote his history were also the same people that murdered him. History is written by the victors
This was put together so well. Thank you. I grew up RLDS but converted at the age of 26 to LDS never accepting polygamy and having ill feelings toward BY. I can't say I've changed those feelings but this confirmed, with facts, my personal beliefs.
Diana how are you doing? It's hard to make changes. Thank you for sharing. I know a few others who have joined the Church having bad feeling toward BY and not believing polygamy being commanded of God. I grew up in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. After learning all this about Brigham. I wish the RLDS Church was still around teaching that Joseph wasn't a polygamist. The Community of Christ isn't close to the church Joseph established. It is so true that we need to really on the Spirit and our own testimonies, just as our leaders have taught for a number of years now. I wonder why the Church isn't addressing these issues more directly. I believe my Savior died for me and I believe the B of M to be scripture. I believe that this is Christ church. And I'm so thankful for prayer!
Brigham Young disbanded the Relief Society in 1845 without a word to Emma or the women. He disbanded the Relief Society which Joseph said: the church was not fully restored until the women of the church were organized. If Brigham Young disbanded the Relief Society for 20 years and then placed Eliza R Snow, one of his wives, as general president THEN, Brigham took the church from full organization to a lesser degree- The church therefore, was NOT fully organized until the Relief Society was fully reinstituted with women serving as a general presidency. Obviously, Brigham disbanded the Relief Society to defeat their public resistance and opposition to polygamy. That said, what do you think of ancient prophets living polygamy? Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the barren women who were involved in polygamy anciently including Sarah, and Hannah?
There seems to be an important common element in the biblical descriptions of Abraham’s and Jacob’s polygamy (Isaac did not practice polygamy; he was married only to Rebekah) that was very different from the polygamy practiced by Brigham and the early members of the Church. In both Abraham’s and Jacob’s cases, it was their barren wives that instigated the taking of additional wives for the express purpose of having more children. Even though the Lord had promised Abram his posterity would be as numerous as the “dust of the earth” (Genesis 13:16) and the stars in the heavens (Genesis 15:5), “Sarai Abram’s wife bare him no children.” (Genesis 16:1) So, “Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the Lord hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.” (Genesis 16:2) It was Sarai that “gave her [Hagar] to her husband Abram to be his wife.” (Genesis 16:3) When things didn’t work out as Sarai had hoped and there was conflict between Hagar and Sarai, Abram indicated it was Sarai who was in charge in the situation when he told Sarai, “Behold, thy maid is in thy hand; do to her as it pleaseth thee.” (Genesis 16:6). Subsequent conflict with Hagar’s son caused Sarah to tell Abraham, “Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.” (Genesis 21:9-10) Abraham talked to the Lord about the conflict, and the Lord told him, “Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice.” (Genesis 21:12) The next morning Abraham sent Hagar and Ishmael away (Genesis 21:14). Abraham’s entry into polygamy was instigated and controlled by Sarah. As mentioned above, Isaac had only one wife. Jacob was tricked into polygamy by his father-in-law to marry both Leah and Rachel. Jacob’s anger toward Rachel for her inability to bear children resulted in Rachel suggesting, “Behold my maid Bilhah, go in unto her; and she shall bear upon my knees, that I may also have children by her. And she gave him Bilhah her handmaid to wife.” (Genesis 30:2-4) And subsequently “When Leah saw that she had left bearing, she took Zilpah her maid, and gave her to Jacob to wife.” (Genesis 30:9) Polygamy instigated by an existing wife, and in Abraham’s case terminated by Sarah when she saw fit, was vastly different from the brand of polygamy that Brigham unleashed in which men were in charge and constantly on the prowl to secure attractive young wives without regard for the feelings or opinion of the first wife. A 1987 study at BYU found that 60% of plural wives were under the age of twenty. In 1857, apostle Wilford Woodruff wrote to fellow apostle George A. Smith, “All are trying to get wives, until there is hardly a girl 14 years old in Utah, but what is married, or just going to be.” Public declarations of support for plural marriage by female participants could be very different from their personal views. Emmeline B. Wells, wife of First Presidency member Daniel H. Wells publicly editorialized in the Women’s Exponent that plural marriage “gives women the highest opportunities for self-development, exercise of judgement, and arouses latent faculties, making them more truly cultivated in the actual realities of life, more independent in thought and mind, noble and unselfish,” but confided in her diary that “O, if my husband could only love me even a little and not seem to be perfectly indifferent to any sensation of that kind…He cannot know the craving of my nature; he is surrounded with love on every side, and I am cast out…O my poor aching hear when shall it rest its burden only on the Lord…Every other avenue seems closed against me,” and on her 22nd wedding anniversary wrote, “Anniversary of my marriage with Pres. Wells. O how happy I was then how much pleasure I anticipated and how changed alas are things since that time, how few thoughts I had then have ever been realized, and how much sorrow I have known in place of the joy I had looked forward to.” (1874) Dr. Martha Hughes Cannon, a 27-year old physician became the third plural wife of 50-year old Salt Lake stake president Angus Cannon wrote, “How do you think I feel, when I meet you driving another plural wife about in a glittering carriage in broad day light? I am entirely out of money-borrowing to pay some old standing debts. I want our affairs speedily and absolutely adjusted-after all my sacrifice and loss you treat me like a dog-and parade others before my eyes-I will not stand it.” Church leaders fueled Mormonism’s particularly misogynistic approach to polygamy by overtly encouraging men with any religious aspirations to ignore women’s feelings. In 1875, apostle Wilford Woodruff announced, “We have many bishops and elders who have but one wife. They are abundantly qualified to enter the higher law and take more, but their wives will not let them. Any man who permits a woman to lead him and bind him down is but little account in the church and Kingdom of God.” One woman wrote to a friend during the Mormon Reformation of 1856-1857 that “Some of the brethren here have to take more wives, whether they want to very bad or not, and Bro. [Heber C.] Kimball says those that havn’t but one, she rules, and he makes so much fun of them, that they are ashamed, and get another as quick as they can.” Zina D. Jacobs Smith Young, one of Brigham’s plural wives, was a strong public advocate of polygamy with very different private views. When a woman whose husband had taken a second wife went to Zina in great anguish of mind and asked, “Does the fault lie in myself that I am so miserable; or is the system to blame for it?” Zina reportedly replied, “Sister, you are not to blame, neither are you the only woman who is suffering torments on account of polygamy. There are women in this very house [Brigham Young’s] whose hearts are full of hell, and in that room…is a woman who has been a perfect fury ever since Brother Young married Sister Amelia Folsom. Brigham Young dare not enter that room or she would tear his eyes out. It is the system that is to blame for it, but we must try and be as patient as we can.” (All these quotes came from “Mormon Polygamy, A History” by Richard S. Van Wagoner, see pages 91-101) When I taught Spanish classes at BYU one of my students was a Muslim from Jordan (and likely a descendant of Hagar and Abraham’s son Ishmael). He explained that his father had taken a second wife only because the first wife was injured by a land mine and subsequently unable to bear children. That cultural aspect of Abraham’s version of polygamy, that it’s justified when one’s first wife is unable to bear more children, seems to have survived over millennia. Abraham’s and Brigham’s versions of polygamy are essentially entirely different practices based on whether the woman or the man initiates and has the right to terminate the arrangement.
@@robfotheringham2289 Thank you so much. I've studied polygamy since I was first learned of it as a seminary student and as a BYU religion student taking Doctrine and Covenants. My professor told me in front of the class that I would have to live the plural marriage. And I looked him in the eye in all seriousness and told him I'd rather go to hell. He was taken back by my boldness. Excellent quotes. I will take a closer look at your sources and see there are significant differences in how Brigham practiced polygamy. What is the explanation for the Fanny Alger affair and Sealings to Joseph with Emma in attendance? I assume Emma understood those were a familial type of sealing with no expectation of intimacy. Ultimately, despite this era of deviation from Christlike leadership, and chastisement through the excersize of US law, in your view, we're the priesthood keys passed on to more worthy and refined men in post manifesto times, who are as Elder Holland says, "imperfect people are all God has ever had to work with"? Again, many thanks for taking the time to respond, much appreciated.
" Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven; Earth must atone for the blood of that man. Wake up the world for the conflict of justice. Millions shall know “Brother Joseph” again."
Can you address the following: 1. The letter to Nancy Rigdon ( June 27, 1843) 2. The letter to the saints in Nauvoo (march 17 1843) 3. The letter to the church of Jesus christ of later day saints (July 19 1843) 4. The letter to William Clayton (june 1843) 5. The letter to the elders in the church (July 2 1843) 6. The letter to his wife Emma (april 23 1843) All written by Joseph as far as we know
Fascinating research, thank you for sharing! Sounds like I have a lot of my own studying to do now. Where did you find the quote from Joseph Smith saying "I would pity the people that should follow Brigham Young as a leader...because he would lead them to hell"?
The Lord put his stamp of approval upon Brigham Young in the transfiguration event. The transfiguration is one of the most documented miracles in Church history.
@@cameronsmith5786 that never happened. Brigham didn’t transfigure into Joseph. That’s Mormon folk lore. Brigham was wicked and entrenched in the whoredoms of polygamy and adultery.
Rob, I love your videos and appreciate the work you’re doing. However, in this video, you share some quotes from Joseph where he references, Elijah and the keys that Elijah restored. On one of your other videos you make the point that Joseph never spoke of Elijah, the keys, or his visitation in the Kirtland Temple. Can you explain?
William Clayton's account of the first time he heard about polygamy from Joseph Smith in February 1843 he says that he never had feelings for Sarah. But his Manchester Journal says otherwise page 110 February 27th 1840. I was much troubled and tempted on her account and felt to pray that the Lord would preserve me from impure affections. She gave me an orange. I certainly Feel My Love toward her to increase but shall strive against it. I feel so much to covet her.
This website has some good historical resources on the subject (see the links toward the bottom of the page): restorationbookstore.org/pages/joseph-smith-fought-polygamy-online I served a mission in Peru in the 1980s, have two degrees from BYU, taught early morning seminary in Michigan, and worked for the Church for over 9 years in various departments.
Rob, this is a fantastic and very informative video. Thank you so much for taking the time to put it together. I do have one question though. If we are to believe that Section 132 came from Brigham and not Joseph, what are we to make of this statement by William Law in the Nauvoo Expositor stating that Hyrum described a revelation from Joseph that basically teaches everything that Section 132 teaches. I know people say William isn't trustworthy, but it seems odd that everything he wrote in the article is exactly what 132 says IF Section 132 was re-written and revised years after Joseph's death. Any insight here is appreciated. Thanks! Also the quote from the Nauvoo Expositor I'm referencing is copied here below for your reference. Thanks again! " In the latter part of the summer, 1843, the Patriarch, Hyrum Smith, did in the High Council, of which I was a member, introduce what he said was a revelation given through the Prophet; that the said Hyrum Smith did essay to read the said revelation in the said Council, that according to his reading there was contained the following doctrines; 1st. the sealing up of persons to eternal life, against all sins, save that of shedding innocent blood or of consenting thereto; 2nd, the doctrine of a plurality of wives, or marrying virgins; that “David and Solomon had many wives, yet in this they sinned not save in the matter of Uriah. This revelation with other evidence, that the aforesaid heresies were taught and practiced in the Church; determined me to leave the office of first counsellor to the president of the Church at Nauvoo, inasmuch as I dared not teach or administer such laws. And further deponent saith not. " Would love to hear your thoughts on this. Thanks again!
Trevor, That's a good question. I tried to address Austin Cowles' similar statement in the Expositor at 1:12:42 in the video by referencing minutes from a Nauvoo City Council meeting in which Hyrum "spoke to show the falsehood of Austin Cowles in relation to the revelation referred to." It seems likely (though speculative) that a false revelation may have been surreptitiously circulated by the same people who dishonestly claimed Joseph supported secret polygamy that later became the basis for part of D&C 132. Cowles and Law both seem to be referencing a revelation similar to 132 that is very different from the one Joseph and Hyrum describe in the Council minutes. I don't remember the source, but I recall that William Law claimed that when he finally saw D&C 132 he remembered the revelation being significantly shorter and different.
At around minute marker 1:27:40 minutes you state that you realize you needed to take personal accountability for what you believed / no longer outsource what you believe to the church. You had access to records and journals and history that not everybody has access to. I find myself wondering where to even begin. Everything that you’ve shared I’ve come to that feeling within myself long before you shared it. Access to the information is half the battle… I have been searching the journals of Joseph Smith ever since they released them Searching for why nothing ever makes sense and why I have felt like I just need to walk away from everything that looked like a great and abominable church to me And instead take the invitation of “come follow me” as a personal invitation to set everything else down, walk away from all religion, and simply walk towards Christ. This one video has shed so much light and so much clarity. How can I get in contact with you to ask more questions?
Anything about the Temple, sealing, plural marriage, is all post Joseph Smith. Have you read about this lawsuit? www.defendingjoseph.com/2008/10/why-is-temple-lot-suit-important.html
@@jsmalone I have... bought the book. The problem I see is that all the references I have found about the sealing issues were in the Journals of the main men of polygamy... nothing from Joseph primary source undoctored..
@@shanhibuddy8504 Yes.. that is the whole issue with defenders of polygamy ... its all 3rd party hearsay that does not stand up as a credible source.. Every single source can be traced to a polygamist and it was not brought forth until after Josephs death.
William Clayton's Manchester Journal page 145. April 25th 1840. William Clayton defends Jacob and David having many wives. Completely contrary to Jacob in the Book of Mormon.
Did you write "Joseph Smith's Monogomy?" If not who? I couldn't find the author in my quick glance of the document. Also, keep up the "Come Follow Me" weekly podcasts. They're great.
@@sampathrathnayaka3905 after seeing what great lengths his “friends” went what in the world could his enemies do? I’m glad I’m not left to make that decision. He definitely looks like he’s been maligned by everyone Which is fascinating as I study human behavior Whenever a family comes in to counseling pointing out the one “problem” member - there’s definitely a huge cover up going on in the system. Nothings what it seems I try to take an open approach and stand back and let truth speak for itself
your footnoe 45 link is expired " He gathered more than 20 affidavits and letters showing he was not engaged in or teaching spiritual wifery as was Bennett. " it no longer directs to the affidavits
This ignores so many accounts by those closed with Joseph on his polygamy. This is completely selective look at history. Clearly Joseph didn’t want people to know about his polygamy.
If Joseph had been commanded to practice polygamy he wouldn't have hid it. "To assert that Joseph Smith was afraid to promulgate that doctrine [polygamy], if the command to do so had come from God, is to charge him with a moral cowardice to which his whole life gives the lie. Nor does it charge him alone with cowardice, but brands his compeers with the same undeserved approbrium. The very fact that men are now found who dare to present and defend it, is proof positive that Joseph and Hyrum Smith would have dared to do the same thing had they been commanded so to do. The danger to the lives of those men would have been no more imminent, nor any greater in the preaching of "Celestial Marriage," than it was in preaching the "Golden Bible" and the doctrine that Joseph Smith was a prophet blessed with di vine revelation. For the preaching of these tenets many lost their lives; Joseph and Hyrum Smith were repeatedly mobbed, were imprisoned and finally died, in the faith originally promulgated, but- if we may judge from their public records,- not believers in polygamy." (Joseph Smith III, Reply to Orson Pratt [tract], 4) And if Joseph didn't want people to know about his polygamy he wouldn't have excommunicated those found practicing or preaching polygamy thereby shedding more light on the subject and risking being exposed himself. Joseph didn't practice polygamy
Yep, just goes to show the suppression of Joseph’s myth ‘s polygamy and how instrumental he was in its origination & perpetuation is still obscured from the lay Mormon even one who seems to honestly search for truth. Sorry, but you’ll have to stray away from church approved sources to find out the truth about JS the adultery.
@@dm7876 One would have to look at all sources both inside and outside the church. Look at who made the allegations, when they were made, under what circumstances as well as the credibility of the source, in order to find out the truth about JS and mormon polygamy. If one were to do so they would discover that not only did Joseph not commit adultery but that the only thing he had to do with polygamy was to preach against it and excommunicate those found practicing or preaching it.
@@annsertrue8782 the church itself even acknowledges he practiced Polygamy. His own secretary wrote that Joseph dictated DC 132 to him and Hyrum was sent to read it to Emma. Women such as Eliza Snow and Helen Mar Kimball (who was 14 when she married Joseph) said UNDER OATH that they were married to Joseph. Read "In Sacred Loniless" by Todd Compton who writes an entire book on the wives of Joseph. He even has a biography for each one.
@@jpenir That Todd Compton compiled the stories the women told, years after the fact, does not make them true. He even starts his book by stating that the evidence on many of the women is "ambiguous and problematic" He also was criticized by Anderson and Faulring, two other historians, who took issue with many things in his book. Compton himself admitted to using notes, regarding the Lawrence sisters, from a lecture he struggled to fully understand and was taking said notes in the dark and when he failed to get a meeting with the person who gave the lecture for more clarification he opted to add the info to his book anyway. Compton also stated, "Anderson and Faulring seem to suggest that William Law's memories were entirely false and deceptive, and I should not have referred to them at all" See the problem with relying on historians? For one thing they often disagree on what is valid and what isn't. As Compton stated in an interview, there are many factors that contribute to how a historian views the information and the conclusions they come to. Not only was Compton a Mormon but Jedidiah Grant, otherwise known as "Brigham's Sledgehammer'' and second counselor to Brigham in Utah, was his great-great grandfather. Whether or not that played into how he viewed the information he came across and how much he scrutinized those making the claims no one can say. But the fact that he used, toddler at the time, Mosiah Hancock's insertion into Levi Hancock's journal to support the claims about Fanny speaks volumes to me. Joseph Kingsbury, who allegedly copied the D&C 132 revelation, refused to testify in court under oath for fear of being charged with perjury. Eliza was married to Brigham, Helen as Heber's daughter by the time they made their claims they were entrenched in polygamy and had a vested interest in protecting the practice.
This information is an answer to prayer and has restored my faith in Joseph's calling. I'm incredibly gateful. In 47: 40 mark you quote the sealing power of Elijah but I'm wondering how you can justify Joseph talking of Elijah giving the sealing power when we know he never saw Elijah in the Kirtland temple?
@@THEENaners247 I found this from Rob..I too believe Joseph had the sealing power. I assume it was delivered to him by the voice of God, like Melchizedek (see JST Genesis 14:27-35) and Nephi (Helaman 10:3-11). The JST clarifies that God's greatest priesthood power isn't passed from man-to-man, but rather is received directly from God "which order came, not by man, nor the will of man...but of God...And it was delivered unto men by the calling of his own voice" (see JST Genesis 14:28-29). Page 172 of TPJS, which you mentioned, comes from a talk Joseph gave on October 5th, 1840, over four years after Elijah's supposed visit to the Kirtland temple in 1836, and specifically references Elijah's visit as a future event: "Elijah was the last Prophet that held the keys of the Priesthood, and who will before the last dispensation, restore the authority and deliver the keys of the Priesthood, in order that all the ordinances may be attended to in righteousness." Three months later Joseph received D&C 124, which reads: "For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood." (D&C 124:28) If the fulness of the priesthood was "lost unto you" (which I assume means lost unto the Church, not Joseph), it makes more sense that Elijah had not yet come to deliver "the keys of the authority to administer in all the ordinances of the Priesthood." (see TPJS p. 172) Claiming a visit from Elijah delivered sealing power to both Joseph and Oliver insinuates that the power was given to the Church, bolstering the claim that whoever controls the Church would also control the sealing power. The scriptures seem to indicate that's not how God distributes the sealing power. JST Genesis 14: 26-29 "26 Now Melchizedek was a man of faith, who wrought righteousness; and when a child he feared God, and stopped the mouths of lions, and quenched the violence of fire. 27 And thus, having been approved of God, he was ordained an high priest after the order of the covenant which God made with Enoch, 28 It being after the order of the Son of God; which order came, not by man, nor the will of man; neither by father nor mother; neither by beginning of days nor end of years; but of God; 29 And it was delivered unto men by the calling of his own voice, according to his own will, unto as many as believed on his name." www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/jst/jst-gen/14?lang=eng&ab=v02 Helaman 10:3-11 3 And it came to pass as he was thus pondering-being much cast down because of the wickedness of the people of the Nephites, their secret works of darkness, and their murderings, and their plunderings, and all manner of iniquities-and it came to pass as he was thus pondering in his heart, behold, a voice came unto him saying: 4 Blessed art thou, Nephi, for those things which thou hast done; for I have beheld how thou hast with unwearyingness declared the word, which I have given unto thee, unto this people. And thou hast not feared them, and hast not sought thine own life, but hast sought my will, and to keep my commandments. 5 And now, because thou hast done this with such unwearyingness, behold, I will bless thee forever; and I will make thee mighty in word and in deed, in faith and in works; yea, even that all things shall be done unto thee according to thy word, for thou shalt not ask that which is contrary to my will. 6 Behold, thou art Nephi, and I am God. Behold, I declare it unto thee in the presence of mine angels, that ye shall have power over this people, and shall smite the earth with famine, and with pestilence, and destruction, according to the wickedness of this people. 7 Behold, I give unto you power, that whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; and thus shall ye have power among this people. 8 And thus, if ye shall say unto this temple it shall be rent in twain, it shall be done. 9 And if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou cast down and become smooth, it shall be done. 10 And behold, if ye shall say that God shall smite this people, it shall come to pass. 11 And now behold, I command you, that ye shall go and declare unto this people, that thus saith the Lord God, who is the Almighty: Except ye repent ye shall be smitten, even unto destruction. www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/hel/10?lang=eng&ab=v02
Study up on how to recognize narcissism and why narcissists should never be trusted. If that is well understood then Brigham’s behaviors would be understood.
Polygamy or Monogamy or I choose whichever is right according to the God at his time. Pride or Humility. Matthew 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
The quote came from Mark Hill Forscutt's journal from an interview he did with Emma in 1877: Thur. Sep. 13/77. Spent day visiting at Nauvoo, Sister Emma (widow of the Martyr) told me that she remembered Joseph having said in answer to a question from Sister , Mother of the Brothers Brackenbury, as to whether Brigham would not lead the church in case of his (Joseph’s) death,-"I would pity the people that should follow Brigham as a leader," and in answer to another question as to why he would pity them, Joseph answered, "Because He would lead them to hell". She also related that after Brigham came into power in Nauvoo, she sought several times to see him; but did not succeed, and finally sent for him. He came, bringing witnesses with him, and enquired what she wished. She asked him why he was teaching or allowing to be taught the doctrines and practises [sic] he was [spiritual wifery and polygamy], to which he replied he knew of nothing of the kind she referred to, and if she knew of any one indulging in such practises, and would inform on them, they should be taken up and dealt with. She replied, "Why, Brigham you need not talk like that; you know these things are done. It is so plain, that even a stranger can not come and walk through our streets without witnessing it. You know too that Joseph in my presence told you that you had been teaching such things while he was alive, and that he commanded you in the name of the Lord, to teach them no more, or judgments would overtake you." He left and she had no conversation with him afterward (Mark Forscutt’s Diary, pages 81-82). This is a link to a paper on his life: www.jstor.org/stable/43201029
@@robfotheringham2289 Thank you very much! Amazing that these events were hid for so long. What do you think Brigham's motives were? Why would God fearing people do this?
ok I'm reading the Joseph Smith papers Documents vol 11 (first 5 pages) and it states that according to journals of his so called other wives Joseph hid in their various homes while the men from Missouri were trying to find him and take him back and that John C Bennett a former member quit the church suddenly and was going about condemning Joseph and the church for the polygamy practices. I personally do not want to believe that he was a polygamist but I would seriously like an explanation about this part of history please.
@@Kristy_not_Kristine I believe it was BY who started it. Look up Cochranites they were practicing spiritual wifery before the LDS church was organized in Saco Maine. Orson Pratt and Samuel Smith found them on their mission. BY was a missionary there too. Brigham married Augusta Cobbs who was a Cochranite first.
The adoption principal taught by Joseph Smith sounds similar to the early church doctrine of a Bridegroom in the time of first Christians when a church is sealed and accepted by Christ as a bride when he returns second time. It doesn't mean that everyone will become Jesus' literal husbands and wives but we are called a bride, and will be accepted in the family of Christ when we are ready symbolically, so we can access the Kingdom of God.
Over the Easter holiday recently, I thought about the metaphor of bride in the wilderness and realized that all the verses refer to just ONE bride. If polygamy were a doctrine of God, I suspect the metaphor would have had several brides hiding in the wilderness. That ONE bride, I believe, goes along with ONE Lord, ONE faith, and ONE baptism.
nothing you stated above is even remotely true. There is no, and has never been, a shred of evidence supporting your illogical statements. Now, if you had said Brigham Young, then your statements would be correct. You cannot just regurgitate what you have heard and expect those who have been reading actual primary source documents and studying this issue for years to believe you without proof. And we are looking for contemporary proof, not statements that were made decades after Joseph was killed.
Are you a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints? Can you explain Issac, Jacob and this being acceptable to the Lord. I believe plural marriage is accepted only when the Lord sanction the practice. The rule or standard is always one man and one women. But we know from the Old Testament that on occasion plural wives was accepted. What is your response to this. Thank you.
Austin Cowles claimed it was the same thing in the Nauvoo Expositor, but Joseph and Hyrum (and “many witnesses”) published that the contents of that “revelation” on marriage had only to do with marriage between man and woman being done in consideration for eternity and had nothing to do with present times. D&C 132 has EVERYTHING to do with present times. William Law also said that when he finally saw D&C 132 he remembered the revelation being significantly shorter and different.
Thank you for this. I have always been very uncomfortable with this concept of polygamy in the church even though I had a testimony. I kept telling myself that I would understand one day, in the eternities.... Now everything becomes clearer and confirms the obvious contradiction between D&C 132:37-39 and Jacob 2:23-24 that always troubled me.
Also, in the Volume The Saints, I was really shocked to learn that JS would have been secretly sealed to the young housekeeper when he was not yet sealed to Emma! All this does not destroy my testimony but confirms to me that, just as in the time of Christ, there is corruption among the modern scribes and Pharisees ! 🤥
So when are you going to leave the Mormon Cult Church? You are only lying and deceiving yourself by staying in the church.
While on my mission in France, I met with a newly baptized sister who just found out about polygamy. She was heartbroken. She had such a firm belief in the Book of Mormon. She said that Brigham Young was evil and wrong for starting Polygamy. She said that Joseph was a true prophet, not Brigham. Me being the know it all 20 year old missionary started to explain to her that polygamy was from Joseph Smith, not BY. But something shut my mouth, I couldn't tell her. I felt guilty not telling her and have ever since. I never considered that polygamy was not required by God. I always viewed it as a faith trial, some kind of stumbling block put in place by God to really try faith. Maybe that is complete nonsense. Maybe like the evil priesthood ban that BY taught came from JS, he did the same with Polygamy. It just doesn't make sense that Joseph Smith, mister "I make this my motto, if God commands it, I do it." Would run around secretly marrying women and girls. It always seemed inconsistent, unless God commanded him to conceal it. But why? I really hope this is true. I will have to spend some time on this.
What's interesting to me is this information is not damaging my faith at all. I still have a deep testimony of the Savior, in the Book of Mormon and the restoration of the gospel. And I am excited to see how things will unfold in the future. Will this church ever be reclaimed by God, and will His power restored and greater things finally revealed. I think the Joseph ith papers project and the William Clayton Journals projects may reveal more and may be a catalyst to real change and real repentance. I will continue to be a part of it. Continue to hold my covenants as sacred, continue to love and serve others, focus more on the Savior and less on priesthood positions.
Well said!
I am with you. Im so so Thankful to have been taught, in primary even to have Christ as the foundation to my testimony. The rains are tumbling down and its all good! I am excited for the future and to be part of the Church of the Firstborn!
Thank you for your account of the spirit shutting your mouth when you tried to tell that newly baptized sister Joseph started polygamy. With all the evidence now
Emerging that no longer makes sense to me. Especially with the conflict between Brigham and almost all of Joseph’s surviving family including his mother.
I have found learning these things has brought me closer to the love of Jesus Christ :)
Yes! I believe Joseph. They sent me home from my mission for teaching the truth
Did they really?
Very sad
Nothing bothers me anymore - I separated the Gospel from the Church. The Gospel is absolutely true.
😂 dissociative behavior right here
R U still member?
I’ve never left the gospel or the church, but I feel the church is leaving me. It’s unfortunate what’s happening then and now.
The Book of Mormon is true. The Gospel has been twisted and turned into an abomination. D&C and the church history has been polluted by BY and his fellow pimps. The "Old Mormons" at the time saw through BY's lies and corruption. We should also!
I am coming to that understanding in my spiritual journey as well brother. We are not only commanded by the Lprd to ask him questions, but in that command he also tells us we must seek and knock as well. "You must study it out in your mind, then ask me if it be right."
In the Deseret News (July 1, 1874) Brigham Young is quoted in a speech he gave on June 21, 1874, saying he admits that he, not Joseph Smith, invented polygamy. Young reports that he had a “vision” of polygamy in England but never told Joseph:
”While we were in England (in 1839 or 1840, I think) the Lord manifested to me by vision and His spirit, things that I did not then understand. I never opened my mouth to anyone concerning them, until I returned to Nauvoo; Joseph had never mentioned this; there had never been a thought of it in the church that I ever knew anything about at that time; but I had this for myself, and kept it for myself.” - The Messenger, Volume 1, page 29.
Well no one need blame Joseph anymore, for Brigham Young is the self-confessed channel for which polygamy was given to his people.”
And by the way, as a historian, in my 20 years of research on this subject, I have tried posting this and several other primary sources from the time period that support your position (which is my position as well) on Wikipedia; however they keep deleting my citations, saying they’re primary sources and they aren’t “peer reviewed” and they go against the “historical consensus”; it’s absolutely maddening. Joseph Smith was definitely not a polygamist, Emma wasn’t denying Joseph’s polygamy because she was crazy or living in her own little “traumatized” world over Joseph’s supposed relationships with other wives (as Mormon historian Gracia Jones would have us all believe). Just wanted to express my thanks for your research and your posting this video, and I want to go on record as saying I endorse your info 100%!!
I join with you!
Too bad you didn’t quote the whole of what I said dipsh*t 😂 nice try though!
"Amateur Historian", or Professional Historian, .. ? Brian Hales smugly refers to anyone who doesn't agree w him as Amateur. (tho he is a retired aneasthesiologist) . We need some professional clout
It’s so infuriating the restoration was buggered up! Foxes guarding the Hen house! You piecing it back together is saintly. Thank you
Great job and very thorough! Praise be to the Lord for the Joseph Smith Papers and the truth finally being accessible to the public. May every Latter-day Saint and the whole world know the truth about Joseph Smith.
Excellent presentation, Rob! Thanks for your hard work in furthering the truth.
We miss you Rock! Bring back Pure Mormonism
ruclips.net/video/pTuu6Y6C0o4/видео.html&feature=share
Maybe this is why Joseph was killed!
This is exactly what I have been looking for my entire life in the church, and didn't know it or where to find it. Thank you for your courage and your honest research. It is my responsibility now to ask God what is true.
Again, thank you. I cannot imagine what trouble or problems with church leaders this sincere research has caused you. Are you still a member?
I think he is not, based on the titles of the other videos, but I haven't listened to them yet. I'm enjoying a polygamy podcast called 132 Problems (it's here on YT and also Spotify and probably the other places too).
@@amandadangerfieldpiano I am enjoying that series too! For the life of me, I cannot understand why the church does not address this issue clearly and honestly, looking squarely at Jacob 2 and the other evidence we have regarding Brigham Young and the emergence of section 132
@@learnenglishwithstories3571you can’t figure out why the church doesn’t address it? It’s a cult.
This is put together really well. Thanks for putting your time into this research
More saints need to know this. I found this out by reading the Price's book a few years ago. No wonder the saints were not allowed to stay and establish Zion. If polygamy and adultery was not going on the Lord revealed in the D&C that he would send hornets across the land of Zion to rid it of their enemies. The Lord promised the people of Moses time the same thing if they would turn and trust God completely. They failed also to establish Zion. Now after 4 generations the time has come that the Lord is calling a people once again to be his and establish Zion. Pray for guidance and develop a personal relationship with Christ.
Wow! I really needed to hear that. Your perspective, I believe is accurate, very accurate.
Where is this hornet section in the Doctrine and Covenants?
Thank you for taking the time to make this video.
Brigham Young's statements treat women like chattel and social priesthood climbers. It is also exclusive and secret, only given to a few special ones, according to his own words. I find this to be very disturbing and I dont want any part of it. His quotes are making my skin crawl.
Fantastic work putting this together. Perfect juxtaposition of statements for consideration. It's really the crux of so many things in L-dS Church history. Is what we have taught for so many years what Joseph taught? The JST Mark 9 quotation is sobering. Why would the Lord have had Joseph make those changes? Thanks, Rob!
I just became aware of you over Thanksgiving break, through your Hemlock interview. I want to express a deep respect even love for you as you have been presented to me. I have lost faith completely. The gospel was the foundation of my life until I saw too many doctrines as untenable. Over Thanksgiving break 2024, my cousin told me about a dream he had that essentially said similar things to what you are saying and I felt a buzz in my chest. Then he recommended I listen to the interview. I did and felt such a kinship and boost of inspiration from the way you view life. It really resonated with how I wanted to live my faithful life when I believed. I will also tell you that had I heard your takes 15 years ago, I think I would not have lost my faith. That's not to say it's likely to come back. I have a love hate relationship with the concept of faith as I do with my feelings towards Jehovah, as portrayed in scripture.
I am thoroughly convinced Joseph was a fraud and that he practiced polygamy, but, like you, I am open to being wrong. I will watch this with great interest and with/ out of respect for you and my cousins who feel as you do. I hope you don't mind that I often engage with content by making responses to my own initial comment, as notes of sort, especially when I can't watch in one sitting. So please feel no need to respond to any of it. I just find it a great way to engage with and attend to content. Much aloha, Braddah. Let's see what you got.
I don't know that we can couch this as either Emma is lying or Brigham. Certainly Brigham is in position to know and to lie about it, but Emma is in a less clear position. It appears Joseph wasn't forthwith about it all and she could believe his lie. It is also possible that Joseph said something like, it was not marriage or was "sealing" or something like that. I'll keep listening.
The way B.Y. slandered Emma!!
6:00 What would trigger the rumors?
7:41 Didn't Joseph F hide Church history in his own safe?
12:46 I am quite aware Joseph spoke out against it. I believe he lied. I'm hoping you eventually address the 41 wives, the Happiness letter narrative and the evidence from all those involved, why he was tarred and feathered and why Joseph would have the Nauvoo Expositor destroyed if not for polygamy or his actions with women and girls.
Amen. Thank you brother for this wonderful video. May God bless your soul and family.
Thank you. This has been an answer to my prayers. Your testimony is beautiful and so inspiring.
I'm thoroughly convinced if polygamy and other non correct things had never been taughtt we'd fill the earth now!
I agree!. LDS is rightly ridiculed for some of BY's crazier statements and doctrines. If only we could have the same level of missionary effort, but focused ONLY on God Truth, ... just imagine. Woe to these deceivers. I dont envy their position
I followed up on the sources cited and they appear to be spot on. It is time that things were questioned out loud and answers sought. If this is the Lord's true church and founded by him then it can stand a little scrutiny.
Prophets should be tested!
Sources like the one from Emma at 0:48 which is from an interview of Emma 35 years after Joseph’s death from the diary of a disaffected member who was ultimately involved in a religious group who killed their own leader and then became an apostle in the reorganised church and friend of Joseph smith III who went to her house with the specific agenda of proving Joseph was not involved in polygamy? Yeah, spot on.
My mind is literally blown!!! Thank you for this video. I had to go back multiple times to absorb some of what you were saying. This flies in the face of so many things I’ve been taught and told for decades related to polygamy and the prophet Joseph. More research to be done and I hope you are correct that the PJS was a monogamist.
Now, my questions, and maybe these are answered elsewhere, and I’ll find them eventually, but anything you can help me with would be great:
1) If Brigham had been practicing secret, plural marriage for years or maybe just having what that one said were considered “adulterous affairs,” would Joseph not have seen it? He seemed to have exposed John C Bennett, for the same thing, but Brigham remained untouched?
2) additionally, the big elephant in the room to this would be that if Brigham had been doing a number of things against what PJS had said, and taught, and then became the prophet, or rather the leader of the church, would the church still have any official standing as the Lord’s church since it would be run by liars, philanderers and forgers?
These are earnest questions and the answers can’t hurt my testimony, but this is serious stuff. It literally undermines everything through Brigham’s time as leader and calls into question everything thereafter.
Christ lives. Joseph saw Him and God.
I don't have an answer for #2, but as for #1, Michelle Stone recently did a video on this. 132 Problems here on RUclips. just before Joseph went to carthage, he had learned that some in the 12 were practicing polygamy. Had he not been killed, BY and others likely would've been excommunicated just as Bennet was.
Also, at the 26 minute mark it's included here, a quote from William Smith.
@@Kristy_not_Kristine thank you for replying. I had forgotten that I had made this comment and just was checking notifications this evening. I’ll go look for that video by Michelle Stone. Obviously, there’s a number of things we just can’t know in this mortal life and so we move on and move forward. We have to trust in God and Christ.
The question then becomes did they kill him. Visiting freinds somehow get pistols into the room?
I came on here didn't listen and gave my best rebuke but that Joseph Smith letter doctored afyer hos death is just too damning. The fact that you can see the edits and the different handwriting and how it flips josephs whole meaning!
He was about to get after Brigham and others but then he was killled he knew he had been deceived! William Marks writes 15 years later that Joseph smith “had desired for a long time to have a talk with me on the subject of polygamy. He said it eventually would prove the overthrow of the church, and we should soon be obliged to leave the United States, unless it could be speedily put down. He was satisfied that it was a cursed doctrine, and that there must be every exertion made to put it down. He said that he would go before the Congregation and proclaim against it, and I must go into the High Council, and he would prefer charges against those in transgression, and I must sever them from the church, unless they made ample satisfaction. There was much more said, but this was the substance. The mob commenced to gather about Carthage in a few days after, therefore there was nothing done concerning it”
Jeremiah 17: 5 -6
"5 ¶ Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord. 6 For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited."
Where did Brigham Young lead them? To an uninhabited salt land.
So, did they get removed from Jackson county Missouri because they departed from the Lord and chose to follow flesh?
Doctrine and Covenants 35: 4 and 90:6 are important.
"4 Thou art blessed, for thou shalt do great things. Behold thou wast sent" forth, even as John, to prepare the way before me, and before Elijah which should come, and thou knewest it not.
6 And again, verily I say unto thy brethren, Sidney Rigdon and Frederick G. Williams, their sins are forgiven them also, and they are accounted as equal with thee in holding the keys of this last kingdom;"
It looks to me as though they should have followed Sydney Rigdon and Frederick G Williams, but since they chose flesh, they get to remain in the wilderness until they return to the Lord.
We should be reading Sydney Rigdon's words since Jesus called him a John the Baptist to prepare for His coming (Jesus' second coming) as well as Elijah's coming. I think that is how we return to the Lord!
My spirit has known this to be the truth for a long time. Thank you for doing the work brother
Thanks for all your research on this topic - sure helps explain alot of things. Really enjoyed this presentation, can't wait until we get to know all the truth, and nothing, but the truth!
I find your research so interesting and enlightening. I look forward to your next presentation.
1:07 unless I missed it, you neglected to point out that Willard Richards was Brigham's cousin, very important fact for many reasons.
It is hard to understand how anyone who looks at all the facts can believe that Joseph practiced polygamy.
Thank you for putting out this information.
I've looked at the facts. Rob's presented half of the evidence here - anything that supports his narrative. There are dozens of journals, including 35 women who claimed to have been his wives, as well as from a number of his closest friends and confidants. I think the evidence is actually very strong against Emma on this matter.
@@TheRealDonLayton Having done the research I disagree. Todd Compton wrote a book on those alleged wives and started the book saying much of the evidence was ambiguous. And the Majority of those women were married to Brigham or Heber. And not ONE of those women claimed to be married to Joseph until his sons went to Utah telling people their father wasn't involved in polygamy. Polygamy had been out in the open for over 10 years by that time. Joseph F Smith went looking for evidence shortly after his cousins visit to Utah and he later "wrote to Orson Pratt on July 19, 1875, and stated that, as he began to put together evidence of Joseph’s involvement in polygamy and its historical unfolding, he “was astonished at the scarcity of evidence, I might say almost total absence of direct evidence upon the subject” (Brian C. Hales, Joseph Smith’s Polygamy 1:9; italics added)
You should do deeper research into who was making the allegations, at what time and under what circumstances. Just because someone claimed to be close to Joseph doesn't mean they were, or that they weren't closer to Brigham and his clan or that they didn't have a reason to justify their own actions.
After my research there is no doubt in my mind that Joseph had only one wife and that he never introduced polygamy to anyone.
ty so much for this research, I will be reading it. Your hard work regardless of the outcome is extremely appreciated brother
This is one of my issues. I'm not losing sleep over it anymore as I was able to settle this issue for myself several years ago. Many women, almost all women, struggle and sweat over the idea of polygamy in the next life. I'm sure men do as well in some way.
My brother and I left the church but not the Jesus. We believe all the things that you have shown and had come to these conclusions ourselves after many hours of study. Thank you for showing the truth.
What sort of things, over these hours of study, convinced you that you have the truth? That there is a god, and that your religion is the correct one?
A superb treatise and testimony on Joseph Smith’s innocence of plural marriage and defense of Emma, an elect woman. He never practiced polygamy. Thank you for providing such compelling evidence and a reminder that we are responsible for seeking answers from God. When we realize it is a form of idolatry to depend solely upon the arm of flesh, may we repent and return to the Lord.
Rob this was amazing! I did the Brigamite thing for 27 years and it was the Church's denial of BY's statements that was my first crack in that faith. Thank you for such a well researched and presented presentation.
What denial of what statements?
@@myeyepie I went to my Bishop in 1984 asking about the Adam/God theory. I had no issues with the teaching, I wanted to know why we didn't teach it in sunday school. Then the Bishop starts in with "Well... a prophet doesn't always speak as a prophet" And I'm thinking - "The dude is at the pulpit preaching, how is that not speaking as a prophet?
@@JordanBaumgardner you follow your bishops and all lower authorities as far as they are in line with the one keyholder, the president. The president has never said Brigham was wrong about what he said. There is no official denial of what he said, only what people interpret from what he said. Your Bishop can’t really be blamed though. Because until someone has a real necessity, they tend to just assume the cultural interpretations as if they were the gospel. In this case, most members think that because Pres Kimbal denounced the “adam-God theory” that it meant he was saying Brigham was wrong. That’s false and I uncareful logic but it is common logic. And for those that don’t really need or want to know that bad, it seems like enough so they accept it, and move on. It there is a whole lot more going on there than meets the eye.
The reason the Bishop didn’t have a better answer is simply because the prophets aren’t actually allowed to answer. Alma refers to something called “the portion of the word”. That’s a small subset of truths, given to the saints to see if they will be true to and uphold it. If they do then the Lord adds line upon line. Everyone is familiar with that. But if they don’t uphold it. If they treat it lightly and delay accepting or acting on it. Or worse if they reject and resist it. Then quite another process occurs. The Lord withdraws that principle or truth from the “portion of the word” given to the saints. What does this look like?
Well first the prophets start to deaccentuate that truth. If people bring it up they say it’s still in effect and they are still accountable for it and they should. But they bring it up less and less. Over process of time the prophets finally become entirely silent on the subject. If asked about it they change the subject, side step, or divert attention to another topic. As more time goes on the teaching falls into obscurity and begins to be looked at with suspicion by some members as rumor only and maybe even just a cultural thing people believed but was never really taught by the prophets. If the previous prophets words on the subject are brought up, they aren’t denied, but the importance of living prophets is accentuated and the subject is avoided again. Then bringing the subject up starts to sound heretical and dangerous to members that get almost angry anyone even ask about it. If people start taking it upon themselves to start doing the prophets job and reinterpreting the doctrine then things get interesting. These folks literally start converting people away or or out of the church with their interpretations saying that the living prophets are fallen and that they are using things from them. They tantalize people with hidden knowledge and this draws people away so that the living prophets, constrained from explaining the previously rejected truth, find a need to more directly address the deception taking place to protect the unsuspecting members. So they label the dissidents reinterpretation with a title. And then they denounce the titled reinterpretation. This is what I believe happened with Brighams words about Adam.
So for folks like yourself that find it curious and want to know more about these past teachings, they are usually met with what others have found and assumed were brighams teachings but what was denounced was actually the fundamentalists interpretation of Brighams teachings.
The bottom line though is that the living prophets aren’t allowed to actually answer questions on what Brigham actually taught directly. So they do their best to obey that counsel. Read any of their words about it knowing what I just said, and the careful lawyerly choice of words they use to dance around the subject start to become clear.
The only way to truly understand what Brigham said is to talk to God about it and then be prepared to keep it to yourself. Why? Because then you too will be under a strict command not to impart more to others than the portion of the word. I’m not doing that. I’m just telling you about the pattern.
Or Brigham was a liar and a fraud... Yeah, that makes more sense.
Beautiful presentation... thank you! You have probably read the books "Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy" 3 Volumes, by Richard and Pamela Price to get a true history of what really went on in my opinion. Knowing that the Prophet Joseph Smith never taught or lived polygamy but fought against it strengthens my faith in Christ and the restoration Joseph taught. As LDS people, we have been told many false narratives and lies respecting the Prophet, Joseph. I believe his main purpose was to bring forth the Book of Mormon and teach the true nature and character of God found in Lectures on Faith # 7 in particular. And Lecture 2 verse 55 is why we are here, to have the experience of speaking with Father and Christ "face to face!"
The prices book has been completely debunked. You would have to discredit dozens of women's journal entries and Their voices. The RLDS church tried the same argument as the Prices... But as more and more information and first person accounts have become available to the public.... Even that church has had to denounce their prior position that Joseph Smith was not a polygamist.
The journal of Helen Mar Kimball is unambiguous. There are dozens more women. You cannot walk away from the three volume book of Brian Hales, a faithful member, or Lindsay Hansen Park's a year of polygamy podcast.... And still side with the Prices.
It's crazy how 50-year-old arguments can be brought back up decades after being debunked.
@@randoman33 I don’t know where you are getting your information at, but you are completely in the dark.
@@randoman33just like in the allegory of the cave you are following shadows thinking they are real. Once you emerge from the cave, the light is blinding and hurts the eyes at first but only then can you finally see the truth, and once you see you can’t unsee it. It all makes sense now. IYKYK
@@kencard777 There’s too much data from too many parties from Joseph’s inner circle and antagonists that confirm Joseph Smith practiced polygamy and D&C 132 was read to the Nauvoo Council.
There are affidavits made by William Law, Jane Law, and Austin Cowles that describe and corroborate key details of D&C 132 on May 4, 1844, published in the Nauvoo Expositor on June 7, 1844. Among the things about D&C 132 verified, William Law recalled it said “this is the law” and to “enter into my law.” matching D&C 132:32-34. Jane Law recalled that it authorized some men to have up to “the number of ten” wives, and that women who did not allow their husbands to have more than one wife would “be under transgression before God” matching D&C 132:61-65. Austin Cowles recalled that the revelation Hyrum Smith read to the High Council taught sealing up to Eternal Life against all sins except the shedding of innocent blood (D&C 132:26) and that David and Solomon had many wives yet in this they sinned not save in the matter of Uriah (D&C 132:38-39).
In response to the Expositor Affidavits, both Joseph and Hyrum in the Nauvoo city council confirmed that these statements were not fabrications out of nothing, that indeed there was an authentic revelation received and read to the Nauvoo High Council. They even admitted that it was about polygamy, but they said it was just about polgamy in former days and/or in the afterlife. These minutes were published in the Nauvoo Neighbor on June 19, 1844.
William Clayton recorded in his journal that he wrote the original revelation on July 12, 1843 as it was dictated to him by the Prophet: “This A.M, I wrote a Revelation consisting of 10 pages on the order of the priesthood, showing the designs in Moses, Abraham, David and Solomon having many wives and concubines &c. After it was wrote Presidents Joseph and Hyrum presented it and read it to E[mma] who said she did not believe a word of it and appeared very rebellious”
Which Joseph Smith’s journal also says “Wednesday July 12 [1843] Receivd a Revelation in the office in presence of Hyrum & Wm. Clayton.” (Joseph Smith Papers: Journals Volume 3, May 1843-June 1844 page 57)
Then one or two days later, Newell K. Whitney requested permission to have a copy made. Joseph C. Kingsbury described the copying process in 1886: ”Bishop Newel K. Whitney handed me the Revelation… the day [after] it was written or the day following and stating what it was asked me to make a copy of it. I did so, and then read my copy of it to Bishop Whitney, who compared it with the original to which he held in his hand while I read to him. When I had finished reading, Bishop Whitney pronounced the copy correct and Hyrum Smith came into the room at the time to fetch the original. Bishop Whitney handed it to him. I will also state that this copy, as also the original are identically the same as published in the present edition [1876] of the Book of Doctrine and Covenants.”
Clayton later affirmed that the Kingsbury manuscript was an exact copy: “Towards evening Bishop Newel K. Whitney asked Joseph if he had any objections to his taking a copy of the revelation; Joseph replied that be had not, and handed it to him. It was carefully copied the following day by Joseph C. Kingsbury . . . The copy made by Joseph C. Kingsbury is a true and correct copy of the original in every respect. The copy was carefully preserved by Bishop Whitney.” (Andrew Jenson, “Plural Marriage,” Historical Record 6 (July 1887): 226.)
Even people who were in the RLDS, whose claim of being the true Church was dependent on whether Joseph practiced polygamy or not, even admitted it was practiced. In a meeting of the RLDS First Presidency on May 1, 1865 “The Question arose as to whether Joseph the Martyr taught the Doctrine of polygamy. President [William] Marks said Brother Hyrum came to his place once and told him he did not believe in it and he was going to see Joseph about it and if he had a revelation on the subject he would believe it, and after that Hyrum read a revelation on it in the High Council and He Marks felt it was not true but he saw the High Council received it.” (RLDS First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve meeting, 1 May 1865, RLDS Archives)
In 1883, RLDS apostle Zenos Gurley Jr. interviewed Leonard Soby, who confirmed that the Utah affidavits were truthful and also signed an affidavit confirming that D&C 132 was the same revelation that he heard Hyrum Smith read. Zenos Gurley Jr. resigned his apostleship in the RLDS Church in response to Soby’s testimony.
Let’s also not forget that all of the women have said they were sealed to Joseph Smith, which you can read about in Brian Hale’s books. You can even see the deeds of the property he gave to some of his wives on the Joseph Smith Papers.
The data is overwhelming and to deny it is to deny reality.
@deniseg.9503 You are so right!! When I learned the truth through personal revelation, I couldn't believe how clear everything was. The light was truly amazing and blinding but so beautiful
Just days before I asked in prayer 🙏 why everything is so confusing, the scriptures , the Apostles, the prophets , that many are conflicted with the coved vax . Because many are just following the prophet Neilson blindly . Threw your Resurch I HAVE ALWAYS believed that you must sort things out and take it to the lord . As you show here as well to find answers. My favorite quote from Joseph mouth . Teach the people to keep the spirt of the lord ect . I have tried to find this quote it is very hard to find . I understand this is some of the most important words that I cherish in my life . I understand so much more . Thank you . It never sat well with me when they tell you to do Resurch and they make it so hard to find it . You have done well . Thank you . I love Emma I have had many experiences with her that I understand she IS a wonderful woman.
Thank you for being bold & brave enough to reveal truth. Polygamy is not of God. Men got it wrong, some deliberately, some through error. I am excited for the future of all things being made known.
My God it’s FRAUD of the highest magnitude!!! Thank you so much for this amazing work you have done
Joseph suffered all manner of persecution for the truth's sake. It makes no sense that he would lie about something God had allegedly commanded him to do just to avoid persecution. He translated the BOM and knew that there is only one who works in secret so it doesn't make sense for him to secretly be going around taking wives. It is well known that he had a close relationship with Emma and that they loved each other deeply. That wouldn't be possible if he was lying to her and taking wives behind her back nor would he do it if in D&C 132 God had commanded him to get Emma's permission. Him being involved in polygamy contradicts everything we know about him and his relationship with God and Emma.
George A Smith: "President Young has the best memory of any man on the earth."
Joseph, Hyrum, Emma, Samuel, William, Joseph III, and Lucy Mac Smith: Um...
It's interesting that "Franklin D Richards said of George
A. Smith that he possessed a very tenacious and powerfully
retentive memory--any person or thing he ever saw or heard
once committed to memory or even carefully read he seemed
never to forget. He was a man of great versatility of thought
and idea and seemed peculiarly adapted to that labor and responsibility." That comes from the "Writing of Joseph Smith's History" by Dean C. Jessee on page 458 at this link: byustudies.byu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/11.4JesseeWriting-0cf206e2-d48b-4b2a-b45c-59a31829d099.pdf
I re watched this for a second time, after months of reading and digging into history, I've concluded Brigham was a false Prophet as described in Ezekiel and Jeremiah, the abominations or secret abominations in scripture refer to Polygamy and or having concubines, the numbers of members "waking up to our awful condition" are the beginnings of the separation of Wheat from Tares.
I noticed this time a mention of a "Secret Priesthood", could it be Satan brought some of them into his Priesthood, Mormon 8: 27, And it shall come in a day when the blood of saints shall cry unto the Lord, because of secret combinations and the works of darkness. Just a thought.
Mormon 8: 36 is even better. All churches are polluted. All of Mormon 8 is a doozy.
Rob, thank you for your research, your diligence in bringing so much to light, especially the truth that leaders can absolutely lead the church astray, it’s abundantly clear now! I have enjoyed your videos and posts, it’s sad that sharing this can create contention but sharing truth is vital, it’s the lies that bring contention.
I love this. It is so well done!! Thank you.
Me, too. Great research, presentation and testimony. My FB ban ends May 30. Your paper on the origins of Freemasonry was BRILLIANT!
Does the LDS church have the actual happiness letter? and if so do we have a public photo copy of it? It was reported to have been written by Willard Richards. We could compare it to other Willard Richards writings to find out. Also if Joseph was trying so hard to hide his private polygamy, having a letter written to explain his reason for proposing to Nancy Rigdon, was a very dumb idea.
I thought was written by John C. Bennett. In Joseph's lifetime he denied being it's author; it's crazy that it is still being attributed to him by the church!
Wow, wow, wow! Such truth. Thanks for your hard work, study and for sharing this information. It's exactly what I've been looking for!
Thank you for standing up and speaking out. I am in your debt for bringing this to my attention. I have struggled with these things for a long time and finally am coming to see what I think is the truth. I am seeking only the truth.
I become more amazed as I keep listening. Thanks for this video. In my opinion, this is such a muddled mess that the only way to get out from under it is to abandon the current structure and restore something from God individually. No more of this hero/prophet worship. It's time to put away our childish things and go straight to God, each person.
Yes, the irony of it all is that the mainstream LDS are really apostates just like the flds are and they don't even know it.
It was a coup by Brigham Young to take over the church, so that he could set himself up as a king and practice is wicked behavior.
He was a self righteous individual who had delusions of grandeur.
Thankfully the Church of Christ as found in the Book of Mormon has yet to be established. This scriptures, 3 Nephi 21:22 talks about the time when the branch of Joseph, the Lamanites, will again come to the truth of their Savior and the righteous followers of Christ in this land will be numbered among them:
"But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance."
What is Rob’s stance? Joseph was a prophet, but the church fell into apostasy after his death?
she was chastised for trying to KILL her husband? That's all? For trying to kill? That in itself tells you it's a falsehood.
Well done! Used important data from other books that are difficult to read because they tilt at windmills. Especially the William Clayton missionary journals. We should doubt historical information from any of the following: Brigham Young, Willard Richards, William Clayton, and John Taylor, who set this thing up, it appears.
I believe this as well. What I was taught never really felt right to me. This was fascinating, thank you
Mind blown! I need to do my own research, but if the information presented in this video is accurate, it explains my own beliefs about Joseph Smith.
The provenance of the Mormon temple experience appears to be constructed using the same shenanigans.
Siempre tuve un sentir incómodo en mi, q algo no concordaba con la historia oficial y era el caso de Emma Smith. Esto aclara mucho el panorama. Muy buen análisis de la historia con documentos y fortalece el testimonio sobre José Smith como un hombre Honorable, Verídico, y Espiritual. Es decir un Profeta real. Saludos
Thank you for putting this all together, Rob!
It appears that the record needs to be corrected as standard histories that I read continually repeat that Joseph Smith both preached and practiced polygamy. Someone needs to correct Joseph Smith's biography and the story of the LDS movement.
It’s hard to fathom that The Lord can move hearts, minds and mountains and then let some small typos bungle the intent of his prophet.
I’m on your side and that is why I suggest giving all the sources for all the quotes. Like the first quote from Emma, where did that come from? Thanks for the video.
I didn't keep track of the sources for all the quotes, but the first quote came from Mark Hill Forscutt's journal from an interview he did with Emma in 1877:
Thur. Sep. 13/77.
Spent day visiting at Nauvoo, Sister Emma (widow of the Martyr) told me that she remembered Joseph having said in answer to a question from Sister , Mother of the Brothers Brackenbury, as to whether Brigham would not lead the church in case of his (Joseph’s) death,-"I would pity the people that should follow Brigham as a leader," and in answer to another question as to why he would pity them, Joseph answered, "Because He would lead them to hell". She also related that after Brigham came into power in Nauvoo, she sought several times to see him; but did not succeed, and finally sent for him. He came, bringing witnesses with him, and enquired what she wished. She asked him why he was teaching or allowing to be taught the doctrines and practises [sic] he was [spiritual wifery and polygamy], to which he replied he knew of nothing of the kind she referred to, and if she knew of any one indulging in such practises, and would inform on them, they should be taken up and dealt with. She replied, "Why, Brigham you need not talk like that; you know these things are done. It is so plain, that even a stranger can not come and walk through our streets without witnessing it. You know too that Joseph in my presence told you that you had been teaching such things while he was alive, and that he commanded you in the name of the Lord, to teach them no more, or judgments would overtake you." He left and she had no conversation with him afterward (Mark Forscutt’s Diary, pages 81-82).
This is a link to a paper on his life: www.jstor.org/stable/43201029
This is so well done. Thank you.
Yes yes yes, thank you soooooo much for this channel and this clarification!
I thank you so much for making this information available. Many years ago my husband brought up the subject of Brigham Young. Many things about this man did not ring true and were in direct opposition to what Joseph and Hyrem Smith teached. My husband has not joined the LDS church. Presently I am still attending the church but with all the changes taking place I am having major doubts. 😢
Doubts are certainly understandable, dear Sister. But please read the Book of Mormon daily. That book is God’s Word directly to us in 2022. I received a powerful witness of Joseph Smith’s first vision. I will never forget that day. And I will never abandon Joseph Smith. He is God’s prophet of the last dispensation. Rob F is spot-on. Blessings to you
You have every good reason to have doubts about the religion that you are part of. Brigham Young was not a good person. He was a self righteous individual, who had delusions of grandeur. Emma Smith detested him for very valid reasons. Brigham was jealous of Joseph and he did everything in his power to get rid of him and Hyrum so that he could take over the church,, which he saw as a way to make himself rich and to practice his polygamy and to set himself up as a king.
He used tithing money to build 4 mansions in Utah and for business adventures. When he died, he was worth $600,000, which in today's world would be roughly 16 million. I think that his take over worked out pretty well for him.
In William Claytons journal he writes the word supper in full, this leads me to believe that every time he has used the letter S he is not referring to 'supper' but to the sacrament. 'I took S with Rebecca' You can see why he would not want to write it in full. It was a ritual, sacrament and feet washing then _________.
Thank you, very helpful observation.
Thank you for sharing your research! This makes so much more sense to me than the narrative I’ve been taught by the church and anti-Mormons. Thank you for the reading recommendations as well!
BY had other reasons to hate Emma - specifically that she opposed his take over of the church. She wanted her son, Joe Smith III, to take over. To this day the much smaller Community of Christ is the organization that descends from the small group of Saints that supported her. This organization owns the historic temple in Kirkland, Ohio. BY ruled the settlement in SLC as an autocrat.
I read that Emma wanted William Marks to lead the Church. Joseph III was only 11 yrs old when his father was killed. I believe Marks was the Stake President of Nauvoo. Marks wanted Sidey Rigdon to lead.
Thank you for sharing your research. This is very well done!
I always thought some of the stuff written about JS was incorrect in the sense that the people that wrote his history were also the same people that murdered him. History is written by the victors
I found these two books to be very well documented- “No Man Knows My History” by Fawn Brodie and “RoughStone Rolling” by Richard Bushman.
This was put together so well. Thank you. I grew up RLDS but converted at the age of 26 to LDS never accepting polygamy and having ill feelings toward BY. I can't say I've changed those feelings but this confirmed, with facts, my personal beliefs.
Diana how are you doing? It's hard to make changes. Thank you for sharing. I know a few others who have joined the Church having bad feeling toward BY and not believing polygamy being commanded of God. I grew up in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. After learning all this about Brigham. I wish the RLDS Church was still around teaching that Joseph wasn't a polygamist. The Community of Christ isn't close to the church Joseph established. It is so true that we need to really on the Spirit and our own testimonies, just as our leaders have taught for a number of years now. I wonder why the Church isn't addressing these issues more directly. I believe my Savior died for me and I believe the B of M to be scripture. I believe that this is Christ church. And I'm so thankful for prayer!
Brigham Young disbanded the Relief Society in 1845 without a word to Emma or the women. He disbanded the Relief Society which Joseph said: the church was not fully restored until the women of the church were organized. If Brigham Young disbanded the Relief Society for 20 years and then placed Eliza R Snow, one of his wives, as general president THEN, Brigham took the church from full organization to a lesser degree- The church therefore, was NOT fully organized until the Relief Society was fully reinstituted with women serving as a general presidency. Obviously, Brigham disbanded the Relief Society to defeat their public resistance and opposition to polygamy. That said, what do you think of ancient prophets living polygamy? Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the barren women who were involved in polygamy anciently including Sarah, and Hannah?
There seems to be an important common element in the biblical descriptions of Abraham’s and Jacob’s polygamy (Isaac did not practice polygamy; he was married only to Rebekah) that was very different from the polygamy practiced by Brigham and the early members of the Church. In both Abraham’s and Jacob’s cases, it was their barren wives that instigated the taking of additional wives for the express purpose of having more children. Even though the Lord had promised Abram his posterity would be as numerous as the “dust of the earth” (Genesis 13:16) and the stars in the heavens (Genesis 15:5), “Sarai Abram’s wife bare him no children.” (Genesis 16:1) So, “Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the Lord hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.” (Genesis 16:2) It was Sarai that “gave her [Hagar] to her husband Abram to be his wife.” (Genesis 16:3) When things didn’t work out as Sarai had hoped and there was conflict between Hagar and Sarai, Abram indicated it was Sarai who was in charge in the situation when he told Sarai, “Behold, thy maid is in thy hand; do to her as it pleaseth thee.” (Genesis 16:6). Subsequent conflict with Hagar’s son caused Sarah to tell Abraham, “Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.” (Genesis 21:9-10) Abraham talked to the Lord about the conflict, and the Lord told him, “Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice.” (Genesis 21:12) The next morning Abraham sent Hagar and Ishmael away (Genesis 21:14). Abraham’s entry into polygamy was instigated and controlled by Sarah.
As mentioned above, Isaac had only one wife. Jacob was tricked into polygamy by his father-in-law to marry both Leah and Rachel. Jacob’s anger toward Rachel for her inability to bear children resulted in Rachel suggesting, “Behold my maid Bilhah, go in unto her; and she shall bear upon my knees, that I may also have children by her. And she gave him Bilhah her handmaid to wife.” (Genesis 30:2-4) And subsequently “When Leah saw that she had left bearing, she took Zilpah her maid, and gave her to Jacob to wife.” (Genesis 30:9)
Polygamy instigated by an existing wife, and in Abraham’s case terminated by Sarah when she saw fit, was vastly different from the brand of polygamy that Brigham unleashed in which men were in charge and constantly on the prowl to secure attractive young wives without regard for the feelings or opinion of the first wife. A 1987 study at BYU found that 60% of plural wives were under the age of twenty. In 1857, apostle Wilford Woodruff wrote to fellow apostle George A. Smith, “All are trying to get wives, until there is hardly a girl 14 years old in Utah, but what is married, or just going to be.” Public declarations of support for plural marriage by female participants could be very different from their personal views. Emmeline B. Wells, wife of First Presidency member Daniel H. Wells publicly editorialized in the Women’s Exponent that plural marriage “gives women the highest opportunities for self-development, exercise of judgement, and arouses latent faculties, making them more truly cultivated in the actual realities of life, more independent in thought and mind, noble and unselfish,” but confided in her diary that “O, if my husband could only love me even a little and not seem to be perfectly indifferent to any sensation of that kind…He cannot know the craving of my nature; he is surrounded with love on every side, and I am cast out…O my poor aching hear when shall it rest its burden only on the Lord…Every other avenue seems closed against me,” and on her 22nd wedding anniversary wrote, “Anniversary of my marriage with Pres. Wells. O how happy I was then how much pleasure I anticipated and how changed alas are things since that time, how few thoughts I had then have ever been realized, and how much sorrow I have known in place of the joy I had looked forward to.” (1874) Dr. Martha Hughes Cannon, a 27-year old physician became the third plural wife of 50-year old Salt Lake stake president Angus Cannon wrote, “How do you think I feel, when I meet you driving another plural wife about in a glittering carriage in broad day light? I am entirely out of money-borrowing to pay some old standing debts. I want our affairs speedily and absolutely adjusted-after all my sacrifice and loss you treat me like a dog-and parade others before my eyes-I will not stand it.”
Church leaders fueled Mormonism’s particularly misogynistic approach to polygamy by overtly encouraging men with any religious aspirations to ignore women’s feelings. In 1875, apostle Wilford Woodruff announced, “We have many bishops and elders who have but one wife. They are abundantly qualified to enter the higher law and take more, but their wives will not let them. Any man who permits a woman to lead him and bind him down is but little account in the church and Kingdom of God.” One woman wrote to a friend during the Mormon Reformation of 1856-1857 that “Some of the brethren here have to take more wives, whether they want to very bad or not, and Bro. [Heber C.] Kimball says those that havn’t but one, she rules, and he makes so much fun of them, that they are ashamed, and get another as quick as they can.” Zina D. Jacobs Smith Young, one of Brigham’s plural wives, was a strong public advocate of polygamy with very different private views. When a woman whose husband had taken a second wife went to Zina in great anguish of mind and asked, “Does the fault lie in myself that I am so miserable; or is the system to blame for it?” Zina reportedly replied, “Sister, you are not to blame, neither are you the only woman who is suffering torments on account of polygamy. There are women in this very house [Brigham Young’s] whose hearts are full of hell, and in that room…is a woman who has been a perfect fury ever since Brother Young married Sister Amelia Folsom. Brigham Young dare not enter that room or she would tear his eyes out. It is the system that is to blame for it, but we must try and be as patient as we can.” (All these quotes came from “Mormon Polygamy, A History” by Richard S. Van Wagoner, see pages 91-101)
When I taught Spanish classes at BYU one of my students was a Muslim from Jordan (and likely a descendant of Hagar and Abraham’s son Ishmael). He explained that his father had taken a second wife only because the first wife was injured by a land mine and subsequently unable to bear children. That cultural aspect of Abraham’s version of polygamy, that it’s justified when one’s first wife is unable to bear more children, seems to have survived over millennia.
Abraham’s and Brigham’s versions of polygamy are essentially entirely different practices based on whether the woman or the man initiates and has the right to terminate the arrangement.
@@robfotheringham2289 Thank you so much. I've studied polygamy since I was first learned of it as a seminary student and as a BYU religion student taking Doctrine and Covenants. My professor told me in front of the class that I would have to live the plural marriage. And I looked him in the eye in all seriousness and told him I'd rather go to hell. He was taken back by my boldness. Excellent quotes. I will take a closer look at your sources and see there are significant differences in how Brigham practiced polygamy. What is the explanation for the Fanny Alger affair and Sealings to Joseph with Emma in attendance? I assume Emma understood those were a familial type of sealing with no expectation of intimacy. Ultimately, despite this era of deviation from Christlike leadership, and chastisement through the excersize of US law, in your view, we're the priesthood keys passed on to more worthy and refined men in post manifesto times, who are as Elder Holland says, "imperfect people are all God has ever had to work with"? Again, many thanks for taking the time to respond, much appreciated.
" Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven;
Earth must atone for the blood of that man.
Wake up the world for the conflict of justice.
Millions shall know “Brother Joseph” again."
Good presentation!
Check out:
“Joseph Fought Polygamy”
… there are 3 volumes. The 4th is being worked on.
Can you address the following:
1. The letter to Nancy Rigdon ( June 27, 1843)
2. The letter to the saints in Nauvoo (march 17 1843)
3. The letter to the church of Jesus christ of later day saints (July 19 1843)
4. The letter to William Clayton (june 1843)
5. The letter to the elders in the church (July 2 1843)
6. The letter to his wife Emma (april 23 1843)
All written by Joseph as far as we know
If you have it, would you please share the citation for the Phebe Woodruff quotes shared at the 1:00:00 mark?
Rob, where can I find the statement where Joseph spoke to 3000 people saying that polygamy had crept into the church by some practicing it secretly?
Fascinating research, thank you for sharing! Sounds like I have a lot of my own studying to do now. Where did you find the quote from Joseph Smith saying "I would pity the people that should follow Brigham Young as a leader...because he would lead them to hell"?
The Lord put his stamp of approval upon Brigham Young in the transfiguration event. The transfiguration is one of the most documented miracles in Church history.
@@cameronsmith5786 did you watch the video?
@@cameronsmith5786 that never happened. Brigham didn’t transfigure into Joseph. That’s Mormon folk lore. Brigham was wicked and entrenched in the whoredoms of polygamy and adultery.
What a bunch of recycled rlds trash
@@myeyepie The scriptures are very clear that if a man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
Rob, I love your videos and appreciate the work you’re doing. However, in this video, you share some quotes from Joseph where he references, Elijah and the keys that Elijah restored. On one of your other videos you make the point that Joseph never spoke of Elijah, the keys, or his visitation in the Kirtland Temple. Can you explain?
William Clayton's account of the first time he heard about polygamy from Joseph Smith in February 1843 he says that he never had feelings for Sarah. But his Manchester Journal says otherwise page 110 February 27th 1840. I was much troubled and tempted on her account and felt to pray that the Lord would preserve me from impure affections. She gave me an orange. I certainly Feel My Love toward her to increase but shall strive against it. I feel so much to covet her.
I enjoyed this. Where did you get your resources from? Who are you? Can you tell us some of your background?
This website has some good historical resources on the subject (see the links toward the bottom of the page): restorationbookstore.org/pages/joseph-smith-fought-polygamy-online
I served a mission in Peru in the 1980s, have two degrees from BYU, taught early morning seminary in Michigan, and worked for the Church for over 9 years in various departments.
Rob, this is a fantastic and very informative video. Thank you so much for taking the time to put it together. I do have one question though. If we are to believe that Section 132 came from Brigham and not Joseph, what are we to make of this statement by William Law in the Nauvoo Expositor stating that Hyrum described a revelation from Joseph that basically teaches everything that Section 132 teaches. I know people say William isn't trustworthy, but it seems odd that everything he wrote in the article is exactly what 132 says IF Section 132 was re-written and revised years after Joseph's death. Any insight here is appreciated. Thanks!
Also the quote from the Nauvoo Expositor I'm referencing is copied here below for your reference. Thanks again!
" In the latter part of the summer, 1843,
the Patriarch, Hyrum Smith, did in the
High Council, of which I was a member,
introduce what he said was a
revelation given through the Prophet;
that the said Hyrum Smith did
essay to read the said revelation
in the said Council, that according to
his reading there was contained the following doctrines;
1st. the sealing up of persons to eternal life,
against all sins, save that of shedding
innocent blood or of consenting thereto;
2nd, the doctrine of a plurality of wives,
or marrying virgins; that “David and Solomon
had many wives, yet in this they sinned not save
in the matter of Uriah.
This revelation with other evidence,
that the aforesaid heresies were taught
and practiced in the Church; determined
me to leave the office of first counsellor
to the president of the Church at Nauvoo,
inasmuch as I dared not teach or administer
such laws. And further deponent saith not. "
Would love to hear your thoughts on this. Thanks again!
Trevor, That's a good question. I tried to address Austin Cowles' similar statement in the Expositor at 1:12:42 in the video by referencing minutes from a Nauvoo City Council meeting in which Hyrum "spoke to show the falsehood of Austin Cowles in relation to the revelation referred to." It seems likely (though speculative) that a false revelation may have been surreptitiously circulated by the same people who dishonestly claimed Joseph supported secret polygamy that later became the basis for part of D&C 132. Cowles and Law both seem to be referencing a revelation similar to 132 that is very different from the one Joseph and Hyrum describe in the Council minutes. I don't remember the source, but I recall that William Law claimed that when he finally saw D&C 132 he remembered the revelation being significantly shorter and different.
@@robfotheringham2289 Wow I'm super late responding here, but thanks again for the insight!
Thank you very much for this!
Well done!
At around minute marker 1:27:40 minutes you state that you realize you needed to take personal accountability for what you believed / no longer outsource what you believe to the church.
You had access to records and journals and history that not everybody has access to. I find myself wondering where to even begin.
Everything that you’ve shared I’ve come to that feeling within myself long before you shared it. Access to the information is half the battle…
I have been searching the journals of Joseph Smith ever since they released them Searching for why nothing ever makes sense and why I have felt like I just need to walk away from everything that looked like a great and abominable church to me And instead take the invitation of “come follow me” as a personal invitation to set everything else down, walk away from all religion, and simply walk towards Christ.
This one video has shed so much light and so much clarity. How can I get in contact with you to ask more questions?
Yes, walk away from religion and seek learning from all the ascended masters. When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.
Namaste 🙏.
Is there any other sources for Joseph being sealed to anyone other than the journals of the 12 of Brigham's era... or the women practicing polygamy?
Anything about the Temple, sealing, plural marriage, is all post Joseph Smith. Have you read about this lawsuit? www.defendingjoseph.com/2008/10/why-is-temple-lot-suit-important.html
@@jsmalone I have... bought the book. The problem I see is that all the references I have found about the sealing issues were in the Journals of the main men of polygamy... nothing from Joseph primary source undoctored..
@@shanhibuddy8504 Yes.. that is the whole issue with defenders of polygamy ... its all 3rd party hearsay that does not stand up as a credible source.. Every single source can be traced to a polygamist and it was not brought forth until after Josephs death.
@@jsmalone Exactly
Thank you for your presentations.
William Clayton's Manchester Journal page 145. April 25th 1840. William Clayton defends Jacob and David having many wives. Completely contrary to Jacob in the Book of Mormon.
Did you write "Joseph Smith's Monogomy?" If not who? I couldn't find the author in my quick glance of the document. Also, keep up the "Come Follow Me" weekly podcasts. They're great.
Thank you for all the research you’ve done on this, the prophet Joseph is truly a great man, it is a shame they’ve tainted his name for so long.
According to my understanding Joseph Smith was a one of history's greatest fraud. how do you say he was a great man ?
@@sampathrathnayaka3905 You're a fool
@@sampathrathnayaka3905 after seeing what great lengths his “friends” went
what in the world could his enemies do?
I’m glad I’m not left to make that decision. He definitely looks like he’s been maligned by everyone
Which is fascinating as I study human behavior
Whenever a family comes in to counseling pointing out the one “problem” member - there’s definitely a huge cover up going on in the system.
Nothings what it seems
I try to take an open approach and stand back and let truth speak for itself
your footnoe 45 link is expired " He gathered more than 20 affidavits and letters showing he was not
engaged in or teaching spiritual wifery as was Bennett. " it no longer directs to the affidavits
This ignores so many accounts by those closed with Joseph on his polygamy. This is completely selective look at history. Clearly Joseph didn’t want people to know about his polygamy.
If Joseph had been commanded to practice polygamy he wouldn't have hid it. "To assert that Joseph Smith was afraid to promulgate that doctrine [polygamy], if the command to do so had come from God, is to charge him with a moral cowardice to which his whole life gives the lie. Nor does it charge him alone with cowardice, but brands his compeers with the same undeserved approbrium. The very fact that men are now found who dare to present and defend it, is proof positive that Joseph and Hyrum Smith would have dared to do the same thing had they been commanded so to do.
The danger to the lives of those men would have been no more imminent, nor any greater in the preaching of "Celestial Marriage," than it was in preaching the "Golden Bible" and the doctrine that Joseph Smith was a prophet blessed with di vine revelation. For the preaching of these tenets many lost their lives; Joseph and Hyrum Smith were repeatedly mobbed, were imprisoned and finally died, in the faith originally promulgated, but- if we may judge from their public records,- not believers in polygamy." (Joseph Smith III, Reply to Orson Pratt [tract], 4)
And if Joseph didn't want people to know about his polygamy he wouldn't have excommunicated those found practicing or preaching polygamy thereby shedding more light on the subject and risking being exposed himself. Joseph didn't practice polygamy
Yep, just goes to show the suppression of Joseph’s myth ‘s polygamy and how instrumental he was in its origination & perpetuation is still obscured from the lay Mormon even one who seems to honestly search for truth. Sorry, but you’ll have to stray away from church approved sources to find out the truth about JS the adultery.
@@dm7876 One would have to look at all sources both inside and outside the church. Look at who made the allegations, when they were made, under what circumstances as well as the credibility of the source, in order to find out the truth about JS and mormon polygamy. If one were to do so they would discover that not only did Joseph not commit adultery but that the only thing he had to do with polygamy was to preach against it and excommunicate those found practicing or preaching it.
@@annsertrue8782 the church itself even acknowledges he practiced Polygamy. His own secretary wrote that Joseph dictated DC 132 to him and Hyrum was sent to read it to Emma. Women such as Eliza Snow and Helen Mar Kimball (who was 14 when she married Joseph) said UNDER OATH that they were married to Joseph. Read "In Sacred Loniless" by Todd Compton who writes an entire book on the wives of Joseph. He even has a biography for each one.
@@jpenir That Todd Compton compiled the stories the women told, years after the fact, does not make them true. He even starts his book by stating that the evidence on many of the women is "ambiguous and problematic" He also was criticized by Anderson and Faulring, two other historians, who took issue with many things in his book.
Compton himself admitted to using notes, regarding the Lawrence sisters, from a lecture he struggled to fully understand and was taking said notes in the dark and when he failed to get a meeting with the person who gave the lecture for more clarification he opted to add the info to his book anyway. Compton also stated, "Anderson and Faulring seem to suggest that William Law's memories were entirely false and deceptive, and I should not have referred to them at all"
See the problem with relying on historians? For one thing they often disagree on what is valid and what isn't. As Compton stated in an interview, there are many factors that contribute to how a historian views the information and the conclusions they come to. Not only was Compton a Mormon but Jedidiah Grant, otherwise known as "Brigham's Sledgehammer'' and second counselor to Brigham in Utah, was his great-great grandfather. Whether or not that played into how he viewed the information he came across and how much he scrutinized those making the claims no one can say. But the fact that he used, toddler at the time, Mosiah Hancock's insertion into Levi Hancock's journal to support the claims about Fanny speaks volumes to me.
Joseph Kingsbury, who allegedly copied the D&C 132 revelation, refused to testify in court under oath for fear of being charged with perjury.
Eliza was married to Brigham, Helen as Heber's daughter by the time they made their claims they were entrenched in polygamy and had a vested interest in protecting the practice.
This information is an answer to prayer and has restored my faith in Joseph's calling. I'm incredibly gateful. In 47: 40 mark you quote the sealing power of Elijah but I'm wondering how you can justify Joseph talking of Elijah giving the sealing power when we know he never saw Elijah in the Kirtland temple?
Yes, I thought the very same thing and am hoping Rob or another might be able to explain this.
@@THEENaners247 I found this from Rob..I too believe Joseph had the sealing power. I assume it was delivered to him by the voice of God, like Melchizedek (see JST Genesis 14:27-35) and Nephi (Helaman 10:3-11). The JST clarifies that God's greatest priesthood power isn't passed from man-to-man, but rather is received directly from God "which order came, not by man, nor the will of man...but of God...And it was delivered unto men by the calling of his own voice" (see JST Genesis 14:28-29). Page 172 of TPJS, which you mentioned, comes from a talk Joseph gave on October 5th, 1840, over four years after Elijah's supposed visit to the Kirtland temple in 1836, and specifically references Elijah's visit as a future event: "Elijah was the last Prophet that held the keys of the Priesthood, and who will before the last dispensation, restore the authority and deliver the keys of the Priesthood, in order that all the ordinances may be attended to in righteousness." Three months later Joseph received D&C 124, which reads: "For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood." (D&C 124:28) If the fulness of the priesthood was "lost unto you" (which I assume means lost unto the Church, not Joseph), it makes more sense that Elijah had not yet come to deliver "the keys of the authority to administer in all the ordinances of the Priesthood." (see TPJS p. 172) Claiming a visit from Elijah delivered sealing power to both Joseph and Oliver insinuates that the power was given to the Church, bolstering the claim that whoever controls the Church would also control the sealing power. The scriptures seem to indicate that's not how God distributes the sealing power. JST Genesis 14: 26-29 "26 Now Melchizedek was a man of faith, who wrought righteousness; and when a child he feared God, and stopped the mouths of lions, and quenched the violence of fire. 27 And thus, having been approved of God, he was ordained an high priest after the order of the covenant which God made with Enoch, 28 It being after the order of the Son of God; which order came, not by man, nor the will of man; neither by father nor mother; neither by beginning of days nor end of years; but of God; 29 And it was delivered unto men by the calling of his own voice, according to his own will, unto as many as believed on his name." www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/jst/jst-gen/14?lang=eng&ab=v02 Helaman 10:3-11 3 And it came to pass as he was thus pondering-being much cast down because of the wickedness of the people of the Nephites, their secret works of darkness, and their murderings, and their plunderings, and all manner of iniquities-and it came to pass as he was thus pondering in his heart, behold, a voice came unto him saying: 4 Blessed art thou, Nephi, for those things which thou hast done; for I have beheld how thou hast with unwearyingness declared the word, which I have given unto thee, unto this people. And thou hast not feared them, and hast not sought thine own life, but hast sought my will, and to keep my commandments. 5 And now, because thou hast done this with such unwearyingness, behold, I will bless thee forever; and I will make thee mighty in word and in deed, in faith and in works; yea, even that all things shall be done unto thee according to thy word, for thou shalt not ask that which is contrary to my will. 6 Behold, thou art Nephi, and I am God. Behold, I declare it unto thee in the presence of mine angels, that ye shall have power over this people, and shall smite the earth with famine, and with pestilence, and destruction, according to the wickedness of this people. 7 Behold, I give unto you power, that whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; and thus shall ye have power among this people. 8 And thus, if ye shall say unto this temple it shall be rent in twain, it shall be done. 9 And if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou cast down and become smooth, it shall be done. 10 And behold, if ye shall say that God shall smite this people, it shall come to pass. 11 And now behold, I command you, that ye shall go and declare unto this people, that thus saith the Lord God, who is the Almighty: Except ye repent ye shall be smitten, even unto destruction. www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/hel/10?lang=eng&ab=v02
If you dont brlieve that, what sbout his own plural wives statements, dummy?!?
Who were the men that Joseph sealed to himself? Where can I find that record?
Study up on how to recognize narcissism and why narcissists should never be trusted. If that is well understood then Brigham’s behaviors would be understood.
Polygamy or Monogamy or I choose whichever is right according to the God at his time. Pride or Humility.
Matthew 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Do you know what happened to the William Richards copy of D&C 132? Do we really only have one copy of D&C 132 which is the Kingsbury Copy ?
Where did you find the quote "I would pity the people that should follow Brigham"?
The quote came from Mark Hill Forscutt's journal from an interview he did with Emma in 1877:
Thur. Sep. 13/77.
Spent day visiting at Nauvoo, Sister Emma (widow of the Martyr) told me that she remembered Joseph having said in answer to a question from Sister , Mother of the Brothers Brackenbury, as to whether Brigham would not lead the church in case of his (Joseph’s) death,-"I would pity the people that should follow Brigham as a leader," and in answer to another question as to why he would pity them, Joseph answered, "Because He would lead them to hell". She also related that after Brigham came into power in Nauvoo, she sought several times to see him; but did not succeed, and finally sent for him. He came, bringing witnesses with him, and enquired what she wished. She asked him why he was teaching or allowing to be taught the doctrines and practises [sic] he was [spiritual wifery and polygamy], to which he replied he knew of nothing of the kind she referred to, and if she knew of any one indulging in such practises, and would inform on them, they should be taken up and dealt with. She replied, "Why, Brigham you need not talk like that; you know these things are done. It is so plain, that even a stranger can not come and walk through our streets without witnessing it. You know too that Joseph in my presence told you that you had been teaching such things while he was alive, and that he commanded you in the name of the Lord, to teach them no more, or judgments would overtake you." He left and she had no conversation with him afterward (Mark Forscutt’s Diary, pages 81-82).
This is a link to a paper on his life: www.jstor.org/stable/43201029
@@robfotheringham2289 Thank you very much! Amazing that these events were hid for so long. What do you think Brigham's motives were? Why would God fearing people do this?
ok I'm reading the Joseph Smith papers Documents vol 11 (first 5 pages) and it states that according to journals of his so called other wives Joseph hid in their various homes while the men from Missouri were trying to find him and take him back and that John C Bennett a former member quit the church suddenly and was going about condemning Joseph and the church for the polygamy practices. I personally do not want to believe that he was a polygamist but I would seriously like an explanation about this part of history please.
keep researching. John C Bennett was a scoundrel, and the practice of "spiritual wifery" likely began with him.
@@Kristy_not_Kristine I believe it was BY who started it. Look up Cochranites they were practicing spiritual wifery before the LDS church was organized in Saco Maine. Orson Pratt and Samuel Smith found them on their mission. BY was a missionary there too. Brigham married Augusta Cobbs who was a Cochranite first.
The adoption principal taught by Joseph Smith sounds similar to the early church doctrine of a Bridegroom in the time of first Christians when a church is sealed and accepted by Christ as a bride when he returns second time. It doesn't mean that everyone will become Jesus' literal husbands and wives but we are called a bride, and will be accepted in the family of Christ when we are ready symbolically, so we can access the Kingdom of God.
Over the Easter holiday recently, I thought about the metaphor of bride in the wilderness and realized that all the verses refer to just ONE bride. If polygamy were a doctrine of God, I suspect the metaphor would have had several brides hiding in the wilderness. That ONE bride, I believe, goes along with ONE Lord, ONE faith, and ONE baptism.
Thanks for this
Aren’t there recds of the prophet’s marriage to Eliza Snow and others?
Not that were contemporary. There are NO records, when records were required. There could have been some fabricated decades later.
Both, the only difference is Joseph Smith lied about it!! Plus, Joseph married women who were married to other men and he married 15-year-olds.
nothing you stated above is even remotely true. There is no, and has never been, a shred of evidence supporting your illogical statements. Now, if you had said Brigham Young, then your statements would be correct. You cannot just regurgitate what you have heard and expect those who have been reading actual primary source documents and studying this issue for years to believe you without proof. And we are looking for contemporary proof, not statements that were made decades after Joseph was killed.
retard
Are you a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints? Can you explain Issac, Jacob and this being acceptable to the Lord. I believe plural marriage is accepted only when the Lord sanction the practice. The rule or standard is always one man and one women. But we know from the Old Testament that on occasion plural wives was accepted. What is your response to this. Thank you.
wish he would have put references to all the quotes
How do you explain the fact that the Nauvoo Expositor quotes from the 132 revelation? Rob, do you have an email? Curious what your thoughts are?
Did you get my email?
Austin Cowles claimed it was the same thing in the Nauvoo Expositor, but Joseph and Hyrum (and “many witnesses”) published that the contents of that “revelation” on marriage had only to do with marriage between man and woman being done in consideration for eternity and had nothing to do with present times. D&C 132 has EVERYTHING to do with present times.
William Law also said that when he finally saw D&C 132 he remembered the revelation being significantly shorter and different.
Hopefully they can translate it into Spanish. We need to know history as it was. Thanks for the work done.
Rob is there a good way to contact you personally?