It just pisses me off. A Conservative government yet again scuttled hopes for a resurgence just a few short years ago when they opted for the F-35 which cant get off the ground during our winter months and is useless when compared to the Arrow.
@Tony Wilson i beleive harper spent billions on the f-35s...i think we got a few as well..it was the big news but i beleive we got screwed again..canada and australia we are now followers when we were actually leaders
@@Les537 Ok Boomer. All you guys remember the "good old days." Expo 67, avro arrow, etc. Trust me, as a gen z we got plenty of future. One that's different but still a good one! 👍
George McKenna, Trudeau Sr and the US department of defense ended up bankrupting us anyhow. At least with the Arrow we would have had something to show for it.
@@scottcourage9434 amazing how Canada did not retain the memory of trudeau. Then to vote jr back in recently. What is wrong with us?! I could never find a model of an Arrow when young. I was a jet model geek. I found one when I moved to Australia in my teens. I still have it over 30 years later. Great aircraft.. I still feel Canada was forced to give up one of its greatest technological marvels.
@mcketamd2 Edmonton, Alberta here. and everyone I know, even our Army bases here, glorify the CF-105 and are pissed that the Conservative Gov at the time claimed that pressure from the Army and Navy caused the demise of AVRO. I live in a neighbourhood that used to be an Army Base called Griesbach. we have monuments and parks named after the Arrow.
@@Jaws10214 I worked in Edmonton in 2008 at the Petro anada refinery. Edmonton is a great city. Back in 2007, I took my nephew to see the full size model of the Arrow at Downsview. Even the model was impressive.
The terrible thing is the brain drain after cancellation. I guess the USA needed help to get to the moon. It’s the what could have been that keeps me watching these videos
If only the Americans had not threatened to cut "The Chief's" wavy locks and then throw him in the Rideau Canal with a pair of concrete overshoes, things might have turned out differently. (Just a theory, but possessing a goodly amount of plausibility or something of equal persuasion..)
To the day he died my Dad (ex-RCAF) never forgave them for this. It's one thing to cancel a project. It's another thing to try to make it look like it never happened.
Unfortunately, there were confirmed Soviet spies within every aspect of the Arrow program. If Canada had gone through with the Arrow, the Soviet Union's avionics would've been that much better than the Americans'.
@@vincentgauthier2030 Why not. It's just a conversation. Similar situations arose in the UK. At the end of the 1950s Britain had a whole host of advanced aircraft designs, mostly militray but some civil as well. Unfortunately, there was chiefly one customer for all these projects, the UK taxpayer. And by the end of the 1950s the British government decided that UK taxpayers should not be funding grandiose and exotic aeroplanes and similar projects. I think the Canadian government of that era went through a very similar process.
As a Russian, I feel for Canadians, it feels similarly to hear about our Energia-Buran program and its untimely demise. It was about to revolutionize the entire space industry just as Avro was about to revolutionize the aircraft.
Some years ago I was working as a float pilot in northern Ontario, Kenora base. Had a charter to fly a pair of Realtors to a cabin northeast of town. Owner met us at the dock and invited me in for a coffee. As we walked in, owner was watching my reaction. Two walls of the living room were covered in 8x10 black and whites of the Arrow in various stages of construction. Turns out his Dad was chief engineer on the Iroquois engine!
I went with dad up to Steep Rock Mines when five and had to use the outhouse at the end of the load dock. I could read. "It doesn't do any good to stand on the seat, Steep Rock crabs can jump ten feet". We moved to the USA after Canada basically ran dad out of town. That's the story of so many Canadians. He became a multi-millionaire in mechanics with his work ethic.
I remember standing at the RCAF museum in Hamilton almost 15 years ago, when they had the recovered stuff on display. From the nose all the way back to the intakes. And right to the side of it there was this bench, and I thought: "Who could be seated in the presence of this piece of history?" And...you don't think that this piece of metal is going to hit you, but it does. Then I kind of realized why the bench was there because I was looking at the lines, the way certain screws didn't get flush with the fuselage around the intakes, and the paint was slightly worn where the canopy would move across it...and the strength just went right out of my legs. It just hits you: People touched this. They lived this. They BREATHED this. This thing flew twice as fast as any words to describe it. It's just amazing. Thank you for doing this one, History Guy. I'm sure I'm far from the only one that appreciates it!
I've been there and saw it. It was like seeing a ghost. I definitely paused, put my hand on it, and thought of how this is all that is left of what was once a proud moment in Canadian history.
"All modern aircraft have four dimensions: span, length, height and politics. TSR-2 simply got the first three right." - Sir Sydney Camm The Arrow suffered the same fate.
Thank you, History Guy, for respectfully searching outside the U.S. for history that touches us all. I love your passion for the subject, no matter what it is. Thank you for bringing your talent to RUclips!
As a Canadian and someone who thought i know everything there was to know o on the arrow; I was surprised and impressed by the details and the perspective of this video. Thank you.
@@MrShobar I read that Tim Horton's actually bought Burger King -- they structured it the other way around to take advantage of the lower corporate taxes in the US or something like that.
Important context: There were actually 4 separate programs - engine, air frame, navigation and fire control, and weapons system. Avro was airframe and engine (the Orenda Iroquois, which would have given the airplane basically F-15 performance). These programs were very successful and brought in at relatively low cost (couple hundred mil) up to the point of cancellation. The nav/fire cont (RCA Astra) and missile (Sparrow II) were Royal Canadian Air Force projects with Avro only integrator, and Avro had no control over them. Sparrow II (first fully active self homing radar missile) was a project abandoned by the US Navy. Astra was going to include look down radar and multiple target tracking, things that didn't happen until the F-14. The Royal Canadain Air Force took these on in its zeal to have the best of the best. But they were both simply impossible with the solid state electronics of 1959, and needed to wait for both Fairchild Semiconductor's integrated circuit revolution in the mid 60s, and Intel's microprocessor revolution of the late 60s early 70s. How far out to lunch was the RCAF? The first fire and forget radar missile was Phoenix in the 70s, which was way bigger, too big for the Arrow's weapons bay. The first fire and forget missile with the Sparrow II's intended envelope was AMRAAM in the 90s. The RCAF was pouring money into a concept literally 30 years ahead of its time. Almost two thirds of the program money went down those two rabbit holes until they were abandoned about a year before cancellation after hundreds of millions had been wasted. In the last year the plan was changed to go with off the shelf (Falcon/Hughes) but it was too late. I mostly blame the RCAF for the whole fiasco because I'm convinced it would have entered service if designed for the existing Falcon and Hughes fire control from the start, with a program cost of a 200 mil instead of 500+.
@John K: These are really excellent points you have pointed to. Carefully studied, they could put forward a whole different view of how many Canadians perceive the demise of the Arrow project. Perhaps the RCAF was emboldened by the qualified success of the CF-100. Viewed by some as an unglamourous machine, it was the conception of the RCAF. It was intended to fill a role for what was thought no other aircraft could qualify. As it turned out, for a time it was unique in its capability to fly 'all-weather' in conditions that grounded other aircraft. The added success of the excellent Orenda engines may have put the cap on the conceit. I am old enough to remember watching them fly.
They were way ahead of their time. Sadly, I seen firsthand those who are way ahead of their time trying to get those stuck in the past and presence their vision of what is possible. Like Windows. It wasn't invented or Jobs or Gates. A women lead Xerox team created it. In short, an "automatic transmission computers. But Xerox was more interested in copiers. Not being able to make computers usable by the masses.
F-15 performance in strait line speed maybe but the Arrow would have handled like a light bomber and woukd have been easy pickens for fighters like the F-4.
I heard from someone who was there that the US was unwilling to sell a weapons package to Avro. Apparently the US thought that Soviet agents had infiltrated Avro or perhaps the RCAF. I have no way of knowing if this thinking was true. Of course US firms went on to sell the alternative to Canada.
I used to live in the Alberta town that has the Canadian Aviation Hall of Fame. They were gifted a life-size replica of the Avro Arrow that was apparently incredibly precise to the original build (some gentleman's life-long hobby). Got to see it up close and even though it was made from plywood and scrap metal, it was not only a beautiful plane but a very intimidating one. It's freakin' huge!!
To add to, or emphasize some points after History Guy's excellent presentation: The CF-105 'Arrow' was a hyper-speed interceptor that was designed to intercept Russian bomber fleets over the high arctic under severe conditions. (The design called for engine changes taking merely 30 minutes.) It incorporated avionics and a weapons system that were groundbreaking in aerospace technology. The first production prototypes used American engines with which it broke successive records in performance. When AVRO's more powerful Iroquois engines were installed, performance was further enhanced. Tragically, the full potential of the Iroquois powered CF-105 was never fully realized. The newly elected Progressive Conservative government scuttled the entire Arrow program causing the dismantling of allied technologies before the ultimate testing of the Arrow was completed. Canadian aircraft design and manufacture was left to De Havilland of Canada. DHC produced very notable contributions to world civil aviation with often innovative designs that have included the Beaver, Otter, Twin Otter, Caribou and Dash 7 and 8 series. The Arrow's demise was a grievous blow to Canadian industry, which arguably reverberates today. And yes, according to some sources, there was some thought given to exploration of the moon using the Arrow as a launch vehicle in the upper reaches of the stratosphere. However fanciful this might be, it reflects an ongoing, national enthusiasm for the untested potential thought to have been in the Arrow program.
"Russian bomber fleets over the high arctic" That's the issue. By 1960 shooting down bombers was a nonconcern. The Liberals like usual were spending a boatload of money on a useless concept.
@@doogleticker5183 Canadair predates Bombardier by several decades, but don't let that get in the way of your Québec bashing. Btw, you realize that DeHavilland is also part of Bombardier, do you ?
@Peter Rogan Lol, grasping at straws there bud. You answered your own question. The YF-12 was a testbed for the SR-71 which actually saw production(limited). And what was the SR-71? A reconnaisance plane. Why didn't they arm it if it was such a great idea? Don't use a handful of prototype experiments to try to make a point. The YF-12 was a testing vehicle, they were trying different things. It shows the answer perfectly that weapons were dropped for the black bird, because it was found to be pointless. And for Avro? A company that bases its entire existence on a single government-funded project doesn't deserve to exist. A whole wack of companies went bust in the 50's and 60's. Not because of some conspiracy but because the jucy WW2 contacts that built them had run out. Avro would have died any other way, just like countless other major aerospace companies.
We feel your pain brothers, only a few years later the UK's TSR2 met a similar end (including the tooling destruction) thanks to short sighted politicians (and some oft rumoured brown envelopes from the US).
Thanks you for doing this excellent vignette on the Avro Arrow. As you can see from other posts, this is a sore point for us Canadians. You have managed to encapsulate the key elements of the Arrow's story and more importantly the effect it had on the Canadian aeronautical industry. This was a blow from which we have never recovered. We lost our place as a world leader in aerospace design and manufacturing. I think your channel is the best offering there is on RUclips. Congratulations and keep it up!
At 5:12, we see a complete Orenda 10 engine. I have one of those in my shop right now in final assembly. The canceling of the Arrow and its Iroquois engine was a shame, but the thinking behind it is something that can be understood. What bugs me is the way everything was destroyed, with a thoroughness that was almost malicious. Our aerospace industry has never recovered; we are a subcontractor to the USA. Not a bad consolation, but Jeez... what might have been. Lots of videos of working on and testing the Orenda 10 and 14 turbojets on my channel.
AgentJayZ Sadly circa that time tooling and plans for lots of projects were destroyed as espionage was a very real concern. They likewise destroyed the tooling and plans for the SR-71s after they got done building them. Hell even recently when the US Sec Def asked about the feasibility of restarting the F-22 Raptor line but when they opened Connex boxes that should have contained the tooling it was missing and they concluded it must have been destroyed.
The premises behind the Avro Arrow as a costly up front, critical path, mass production, crash program interceptor of soviet bombers were faulty. At the time of its cancellation it was a nice flying platform with no suitable weapons systems in sight. All the huge real world expenses involved in creating and operating the air defense bases and support facilities "at the front" were going to be mind boggling. Canada was heading into a big recession at the time and the governing party was pro western Canada in its outlook and winter works right now, bricks and mortar in its employment mindset. The RCAF and the aerospace industry thought they had created a set piece "too be to be cancelled by politicians" fortress. They were wrong.
@@GrizzAxxemann Yes all the "smart ones" moved to the province that can't figure out how to keep afloat when oil is less than $120/barrel. Hate to break it to you, but all the misassigned racist hatred you can muster up isn't going to change the global price of oil for you. Instead of using your "smarts" to whine about cultures you don't understand, maybe you should put that effort toward diversifying your economy.
For sure. Canada doesn't even has its own car make. Sure, we build cars for America, (Ford GT). That's why they see us as their little sister. Makes me feel like the fat kid.
@@altrag racist? where the fuck did you get that, bonehead? Since when were morons, idiots and commies RACES? Oh wait. Nevermind. I get it now. You're one of those demographics that gets offended by anything and everything. Keep chirping chickadee, I'm done with you.
Both of my grandfathers worked on that project. One ran an engineering company that did design work and he was present on that October 4 day. The other worked on the factory floor assembling aircraft. This is for many of us a very sore point, as well as a point of pride. On a slightly pedantic note: it's pronounced Deef N Baker without the long "a" sound in the last syllable. Thanks for your work.
All through school in the late ‘50s and early ‘60s, history was my least favorite subject. That might have been much different if I had had teachers like you. Thanks for producing one of the RUclips channels on my “must watch” list.
I hated history in school as well, way to intent on beating dates into our heads rather than discussing why it happened. Why will always be more interesting and important than the exact date.
Interesting time in aviation, late 50's early 60's. Some call it the "Golden Age" of aviation. To look at all the aircraft that was in development at that time, and realize it was done with slide rules and brain power. You go Mr. The History Guy!!! You go!!
Thank you so much for adding this story to your channel. As a Canadian involved in the aerospace industry it still pains me to think that we traded what could have been the best aircraft at the time for the dog that was the bomarc missle system. There are many theories as to where the last Arrow ended up. I'd like to think that it was taken by Lockheed and used in the development of their future endeavors
The TSR 2 was a high speed high penetration strike plane. Yes equally advanced and shafted none the less. Had a similar but not as drastic effect on the British aviation industry as well.
yep---I was going to mention that. This sort of thing has happened many times with British inventions and ''breakthroughs' only for Politics and US rivalry to crush them.
@@keitheckensviller250 The terrain following function that TSR2 pioneered was suspiciously similar to that later incorporated into the F-111. Allegedly.
Like the Arrow the TSR-2 was obsolete before it ever entered production. The Soviet bomber threat never materialized and ICBM's made advanced dedicated interceptors obsolete.
@@Bellthorian you sure about that? The TU-95's (introduced in 1952) still trundle down the North Sea testing that the UK is paying attention to this very day...
As a Canadian, that was one of the best compositions concerning the arrow I have heard in a long time. Many see Black Friday as the day Canada lost its greatness. Thankyou for making sure the legacy of the arrow has not been forgotten. I still dream of seeing one fly one day.
I’m sure the comment was made figuratively as the SR71 was just a little bit faster. But I understand what he meant. My second favourite plane is the 71. Many planes today have roots in the AA. A little side note...the Arrow the flew was using an engine that was not planned of staying in. The planned engine was still being made at the time of the flight test.
PikPobedy yes I know the speed difference and which one is the faster of the two. Let me type this slowly for you so you can understand. The original poster was speaking FIGURATIVELY. He was saying In The Same Era. Not in the same air space as they would not share said air space but for a fraction of time!
My great uncle was an engineer working on the Arrow's Iroquois Engine. He had a great amount of knowledge that did not go to waste in the end. It was always a touchy subject whenever Canadian aviation was brought up in conversation, as one of the few things that would ever cause his calm and cool demeanor to disappear was the Arrow. He felt robbed of an opportunity to make Canadian aviation something to be sought after and admired by the world. Not just for military application, but civilian and space application. I really enjoyed your segment on the Arrow and the history surrounding the company, while highlighting that the minds moved elsewhere and propelled some of the largest projects of the century.
Please do a piece on the British TSR.2 , again a great aircraft, as was the Avro Arrow, with lots of potential and pretty much came to the same end, both physically, with everything broken up and destroyed including manufacturing jigs and engineering plans and also politically destroyed as much as the Avro Arrow was.
It most certainly is to great to be ignored. 2 of the probably the finest aircraft of their time, consigned to the dust bin in pretty much the same way. Coincidence ? I think not, especially when taking into account the total destruction of the jigs, plans and almost nothing left, except a cockpit section of an Arrow in Canada, and also 2 complete TSR.2's in the UK, in museums and that is it.
Was fortunate to call one of those Avro engineers a friend. He retired to the west coast of Vancouver Island after working on the Apollo program. Was a navigator in ww2, worked at Avro on the Arrow, and then worked on the space program. Still razor sharp before passing away a couple of years ago. Accurately calculated the flight path for one of the more recent Mars missions. His dream was to set foot on Mars.
In fact it still is ahead of its time. Yes the electronic are not but the basic design would still hold its own on any aircraft today of course with the iroquois engines 2300mph
I can imagine how much better the world would be if there were educators(teachers) that had passion, and gave kids something to look forward to.. hats off your videos are top shelf.
Funny coincidence I just saw the remaining nose section at the Air and Space Museum in Ottawa last week. A key loss after cancelation was the Iroquois jet engine which was also highly advanced....damn that Diefenbacher ;-)
@Jon Tipping Yes there is one on display at the Air and Space museum as well....though there are no plans to refurbish it....it sits near the nose section against the wall. I subscribe to AgentJZ's channel from S & S Turbines in BC who are working on restoring the Iroquois from England. Good on them for taking that huge job on. ruclips.net/video/wKsNaeJJe24/видео.html
seaglider844 The engines were jawdropping, the complicated titanium engineering was world pioneering in advanced innovation, the design as a whole was highly spectacular, the performance was setting up to be so superior as to be a threat to everyone incl the Commies AND the USA. Sabotaging it was so easy... And the utterly useless Bomarc and followup substandard fighters we "agreed" to buy from the USA as an alternative? Disgusting, and greater waste of money over time. FFS, I hate every Canuck govt that ever existed since. And wait for five minutes to have some dicklark spout off on how useless, inconsequential and caveman Canadians are. Ive seen years of trogs state "the Arrow wasnt even half the plane of (fill in the blank American craft)". Usually the same flatheads who dismiss our involvement in both world wars in equal judgement. Pathetic thing is,mour "education system " up here consistently pushed the same socialist-based self loathing ideology that guaranteed no generation but the best one,would ever know appreciate or respect our own verifiable and worthy heritage, so losses on two fronts. YOU'RE WELCOME, re: all our scientists that filled so many brainspots south of our border btw.
What's that museum like? I have some of my father's hand tools from his employment at A.V. Roe as a machinist. Some might be from his time before that at Rolls Royce. When I google the museum/AVRO restoration groups, it's like they have locations around Ontario so I can't get straight what is still active and what is some other group. I got tired of learning of museums and groups popping up and then not getting enough funding so they folded, e.g. the place at the old CFB Downsview came and went. Anyway if I think it's viable, I'd reach out to see if they are interested. The Warplane Heritage Museum wasn't - never replied.
Thanks for the intriguing account of the Avro Arrow. What might have been was lost although some say there is still one of the original functioning Avros still around. I've heard stories of the Avro CF-105 breaking the sound barrier from Milton to Barrie and back. Most Canadians who know, still wish.
I know there are a lot of Canadians that see the decision as insane. However, from what I've seen of the Arrow's performance and capabilities, it didn't outperform the contemporary Phantom, and the Phantom wasn't just an interceptor; it was a general air superiority fighter and fighter-bomber as well. It covered every role from interceptor to fleet defense fighter to land-based air superiority to deep interdiction to Iron Hand/SEAD to nuclear strike to reconnaissance. About the only thing it didn't do well was close support, and it did close support about as well as any other high speed fighter. The Arrow on the other hand seems designed in a way likely to make it unsuited for any role other than intercepting high and fast bombers (and perhaps reconnaissance) although if others have a counterargument, I'd be interested to hear it.
I'd say Canada didn't need a multi-role fighter at home...what we needed was something to prowl and protect our vast north, and stop the bombs from falling on us, and the US. We had no world-wide interests to protect, and NATO commitments would be better served with other equipment.
I was lucky to be at the premiere showing at the CBC. Great evening as I sat between a movie star and an astronaut. The Arrow test pilot Janusz Żurakowski signed an autograph.
Thank you HG, You did the Arrow program and the Canadian aviation/aerospace industry justice in your history vignette. Much appreciated! Would be great if you also covered the Canadian aviation manufacturers Canadair in Montreal & DeHaviland Canada in Toronto of the same time period.
Been to your home town recently? It has made a miraculous and award winning recovery. From a desolate industrial ravaged moonscape it is now a jewel in Canada's near north.
@@TheOwenMajor give your head a shake, the only reason the Arrow was completely obliterated was because the States didn't want Canada to get ahead of them. The U.S. convinced Dief. the thief to destroy and cut up every scrap of the Arrow and destroy all of the blue prints, even though the first flight proved to be faster than any other aircraft in the air.
@@arnoldanderson1501 Please explain to me the logic of continuing development of the Arrow then. The Arrow was a great interceptor. It would have been great at shooting down Soviet bombers. The issue however is that shooting down bombers wasn't a concern by the late 50's. Their advantage of being able to fly high to avoid fighters was eliminated by better technology in missles, engines and radar ect. which allowed SAMs and cheaper more versatile fighter aircraft to shoot them down. In addition ICBMs rendered bombers redundant. They were not the primary nuclear threat anymore. The plans were destroyed because the Soviets had infiltrated the program. Perhaps a little drastic but it had logic behind the decision.
As a Canadian and an aviation enthusiast it breaks my heart that the Arrow never went to production. It never flew with the engines that were designed for it, and it still went to mach 2. If only they could have flow with the Iroquois engines, what could have been. Always mad at Diefenbaker, lets cancel the Arrow, then purchase the USA made Bomarc missile, then the USA made Northrop CF-101 Voodoo. So mad. But thanks for the great video!
@@davidvance6367 You can watch the whole thing right here on youtube, here's the link: ruclips.net/video/9PMnlnqRex4/видео.html I am proud, as a Canadian, to say that this show is a Canadian production.
The one good thing is a bunch of Canadian engineers decided to go to the moon using USA money! Joined NASA. My god father was one. Remember the days when our counties where good friends? We got shit done!
Thank you so much for posting this, and helping make people aware of this. To this day, many people in Canada refuse to let go of this. There has been a slow-building rise of a group looking to initiate a "Arrow II" project. Also worth noting is that the Arrow, from the 1950s, has a longer range than an F-35, a higher intercept speed than an F-35, and higher payload capacity than an F-35. And it was designed decades ago.
You are wrong on several levels. The F-35 has more than DOUBLE the range of the Avro Arrow. The F-35 also has a higher payload capacity when using external hard points.
@@gerrya4818 I am actually Old Enough to Remember when The Deif had Passed Away. So I got to hear the Correct Pronouncement of his Name a lot for several weeks.
You are right Diefenbacher pronounced his name Deifenbaker however now I live in Switzerland I realise he is pronouncing it as the German’s would and the name sounds German.
An excellent short on the darkest time in Canadian history. Apparently after Black Friday, my neighbour's father, an engineer at Avro, purchased the land our house is on with money from his settlement. In 1997 a movie on the CF 105 was made, with Kingstons Dan Aykroyd as Crawford Gordon. An interesting point is Aykroyd's mother was Crawford Gordon.'s secretary at Avro Canada, thus a strong, personal attachment for Aykroyd.
Dear Mr History Guy : This is a real gem. I was in high school at Burnhamthorpe CI , located close to Malton , Ont. Several of my class mates had parents working on the Avro Arrow., from test pilots to engineers So it we were all proud of the test plane When PM Defenbaker canceled the program. I still blame him for the loss of our promising aviation industry. I still feel pride at what we had the potential to accomplish. Imagine , today if we were still a contributor to the main thrust of space instead of on the fringe. Thanks again . Brian 79
The Nose section is at the Air and Space museum in Ottawa, they also have a set of wings tucked away in the Hanger next to the museum. The rollout model at 7:40 was amazing and its such a massive jet at full scale. Sadly even the Malton factory buildings are long gone, so much history around that area. Great video thanks.
One of my friends who is Canadian and now living here in the States told me about the Avro Arrow a few years back. Pretty impressive aircraft. His uncle was part of the brain drain and actually worked on the design of the landing gear for the LEM. Pretty cool.
Ok I then stand a bit corrected in that he then didn't leave Canada for the States. I was just assuming that after the statement in this video. Thank you for the correction.
And quite a few Canadian engineers and physicists assisted during the Apollo 13 accident. I'd say because so many NASA engineers were Canadians and former Avro engineers they called home for help.
I am old enough to remember seeing the Arrow fly over our home in Mississauga. I watched it a few times arc over our home and accelerate leaving the chase jets like they were standing still!
A time when science and technology advancements were not only frequent, but tangible to everyone from the youngest schoolboy to the eldest grandmother. Must have been an interesting and exciting time to be alive.
The flight records actually tell the tale. The Arrow easily did supersonic in climbs and one can only imagine what might have been if the testing and further modifications had occurred. Maybe we'll see a flying model come out of Springbank, Alberta someday.
R, 55 years ago Canada currency was worth 7% more than American. Canada shoppers had a great time buying on the American side of the border. There definitely is a border now though. Back then it was pretty much imaginary. Now might as well be the Berlin Wall
@@raynus1160 Perhaps, but I think that canada could have been like Switzerland as far as tech/military hardware if the Arrow went forward. Making some of the world's best hardware while not feeling like using it as other nations do
My new favorite RUclips channel. I love history and The History Guy is not obnoxious or politicized (so far as I’ve observed in the last dozen videos I’ve watched) like The Science Guy. Keep up the great work. I love it.
@@Justanotherconsumer - They're all similar in that canceling them was the right decision given the changes in technology of the day; the YF-12 bit the dust for the same reason. The development of the ICBM and high speed SAM meant high and fast bombers were obsolete and unsurvivable, and so therefore the high and fast interceptor was obsolete as well. The only one that survived this time was the MiG-25.
Enjoy your RUclips videos. Back in the early 80’s I worked for a Detroit manufacture of parts for Auto components and aircraft fastening. One of the older engineers design a fastening for engines going Mach something. He had worked at AVRO until, Black Friday. The computer power he needed was massive for his designs. Being a young computer guy we talked and had lunch together. I think of him when I fly and his rivet design for Mach 3. Thank you for this video.
This is the best researched concise piece on the subject, especially non Canadian perspective . Nailed all the key facts. My aunt worked on design on the project. Two other factors I remember her mentioning from back then.... a discussion on lobby groups from the south having influence and US concern over Boris & Natasha (soviet spies) having free reign over the plant. Apparently security was a, little too loose back then in Malton. Actually, I just found the security pass to the plant . Times have changed
Thanks History Guy and Canadians, I learned a lot. From someone else's piece partly about the Avro Arrow it mentioned that the parent companies and govt in the UK had majorly invested and overlapped investments in the V-bombers, Vulcan, Victor and another one. So much money and focus had gone into those and effort to keep British aero companies going well, there wasn't much left to build and keep the Avro Canadian projects, esp Arrow. And as mentioned here as well, the Interceptor type aircraft, which includes the beloved Vulcan, were being made unlikely to be used in real big war/ less Cold War need because of ICBM's becoming the future. British govt and air industry had enough to keep the Vulcan going, but turned away/ failed to support the Avro Arrow.
The US did not want Canada to have the Arrow. These two videos explain what happened, based on the actual archival documented record. ruclips.net/video/ulCTf-KJ2Eo/видео.html Update USA ruclips.net/video/fdxum2OiBeQ/видео.html The Avro Arrow: For the Record
Thank you, History Guy, for contributing to the awareness of the Arrow. One point I would like to make: sixteen months after the cancellation of the Arrow project, the Diefenbaker government purchased from the USA fifty-six F101 Voodoo all-weather interceptors for the purpose of front-line point defence of Canada's borders (precisely the Arrow's role). Therefore, "obsolescence" was never a true and valid reason for the cancellation of the Arrow.
Dandelion Down too: There were several reasons why the Arrow was cancelled, and obsolescence was a pretty big part of that decision. The moment Sputnik achieved orbit, the need for purpose-built interceptors designed to counter massed formations of high-altitude, supersonic bombers vanished. The U.S. cancelled several interceptor programs around the same time as the Arrow, so it was not simply a matter of politics confined to Canada, but a major realignment in strategic thinking all across the Western world. If the F-106 had first flown the same year as the Arrow instead of a year earlier, it likely would have been cancelled too and for the same reason. But regardless, Canada still needed a replacement for their aging, sub-sonic CF100s to counter intrusions by lone Russian bombers into their airspace, and the F101B was a logical and affordable choice that fit the role well into the 1980s.
As a Canadian it's a little ironic that the best and most well researched and presented snippets of Canadian history are from an American -- The History Guy. Although there are several documentaries about The Arrow, I've got to say this video is a very succinct and well researched presentation. My dad did service calls at A.V. Roe in Malton just before I was born. We grew up in the general area. He saw both the Arrow fly and also got a glimpse of the Aerocar. Well done History Guy!
"DiefenBacher" LOL!! I guess Oroville Redenbacher had a cousin. 🇨🇦. We got robbed. Plain and simple. Every aeronautical engineer was hired by US companies.
No, not all of them. There were a handful who insisted on staying in the country and work for deHavilland or Canadair. I met a few of them when I started working in the aerospace world back in 1978.
Some of them went to Europe and worked on the Concord. It was the concretive party that cancelled the plane. I have never voted for these destroyers and never will. They call then selves UCP, Con... PC etc but they are all want to go back to the dark ages and live in the dessert follow the 2000 year old superstitions
R TeBokkel, if every aeronautical engineer was bought off from America. Then no doubt it's anyones fault in the United States. Certainly seems Canadian intelligence flopped big time
Thanks for doing a video on this. This was my "boogie man" story my Dad and I would talk about growing up. It is a terrible sore spot that has reached mythical levels. The combination of bad decisions and circumstances really are maddening. Probably the most maddening part is that no one can seem to say who gave the destruction orders. Diefenbaker denied it in his memoir and all of the Avro personnel said they never gave the order as well. I think things wouldn't be quite as bad today if we simply didn't destroy everything. Great closing statements on this whole affair.
21 years ago there was a purge of nurses from Canada. My then infant son contracted RSV which is more times than not fatal to babies. By chance, at Sanra Rosa Childrens Hospital in San Antonio, Tx in the ICU for children was a one of those Canadian nurses. If she had to get more than arns reach from my son throughout her 12 hour shift, she would beckon someone to his side until she could return to his side. So diligent was she, that in that afternoon i was overcome with a feeling that my son was going to make it. Not only did he make it, he baffled the entire staff of doctors and nurses as to his amazing recovery and was discharged from the hospital within 48 hours that even when cured should have been7 to 10 days. Was she just a nurse or 1 of his guardian angels, i don't know, but i'll never forget her superhuman effort and the thought that she was the reason why my son was a miracaculous cure of that dreaded illness. My point is this. If the drain of talent in the aerospace industry was indicative of that nurse, god only knows what Canada and the World lost because of it. We might very well be colonizing Mars at the writing of this comment. Might note my son will be 23 in a few days and gave me a granddaughter last April that as or more beautiful than the Gerber baby. God Bless Canada and that nurse, wherever you are today. Thank you ain't enough...
The pronunciation the Deifenbaker name was changed during WWI for the same reason the monarchy was changed to Windsor. Dan Aykroyd starred in a four part miniseries, for the CBC, about the Avro Arrow, called "The Arrow".
The U.S. Government at the time couldn't stand the fact that the Canadians had produced a better interceptor aircraft than anything they had in their inventory. Diefenbaker caved to U.S. pressure, thinking that Canada needed Uncle Sams help to combat the Soviet threat. The Arrow was easily 20 years ahead of it's time. Love the History Guy.
Let me introduce to you the F-4 Phantom. First flight was just two months after the Arrow's first flight. The F-104 also had similar capability and cost 3-4 times less than the Arrow was estimated at in full production. So uh... Your claims don't hold much water.
The US canceled interceptor programs as well. The arrow myth is pure nonsense. The plane was outdated, very simple. Really good at shooting down Soviet bombers. The issue was nobody was concerned about shooting down bombers by the end of the 50's. They are big and slow. In the early 50's they could fly high which made fighter aircraft incapable of downing them, hence interceptors. By the late 50's missile technology combined with radar improvements and engine technology meant SAM and fighter aircraft could effectively shoot them down, no more need for an interceptor.
Beautiful aircraft envy of most airforces, saw the ‘105’ fly over “Malton” airport several times. Gutted me when Dief. Cancelled & hacked them to pieces!
You brought up a very interesting topic, 1942 Packard Motor Car Company stopped making cars, retooled their plant from SAE to Metric (Not sure if it was called Imperial or British) and started to produce the Merlin engine for the British. It was felt that it was easier for Packard to change to Metric rather than having the field units in the UK change to SAE. Packard also produced the marine engines used in the PT boats. Packard, one of the 4 orphan cars in the U.S. that still has a hugh following and some of their cars are very valuable today. Thank you for an interesting show.
Sounds like a peculiarly British story - engineers, designers and scientists do fantastic, groundbreaking work, then at the last minute the government pulls the rug out from under them. Where have we heard that before?
This has happened quite a lot in the States as well. X-33 had finished the bulk of development and construction, only to be canceled because politicians didn't like it's change from using carbon fiber to stainless steel fuel tanks. The vehicle would have been a single stage fully reusable crew shuttle, cancelled during final assembly because of the personal whims of politicians.
The "Never was ,what ifs". The Arrow was competition to the US aircraft of the day and was way over budget, way behind schedule and nobody wanted it. The TSR-2 only ONE was ever produced it was over budget, overpriced , over-politicized, and overdue.
What you didn't say. My Dad worked on the assembly line of the Avro Arrow. He was beyond proud of this. We lived in Brampton and would hear the test flights breaking the sound barrier. If you were outside, you would stop and watch and marvel. It was a beautiful sound. We would hear the wind tunnel tests too.
if the CF105 continued they could have also built one of the first super sonic passenger aircraft to compete with the Concorde. What a shame so much potential.
With continuous upgrades, the Arrow would still be a superior fighter bomber comparable to the F18 but with long range capability. It was designed with the defence of Canada in mind and Canada is a massive country. The total destruction of the project was sudden and unexpected and was never fully explained by the government. It is widely believed, as I do, that Washington threatened the Conservative government with economic reprisals if they continued to production of the Arrow. If so this was a direct infringement of Canadian sovereignty. Thank you, History Guy. This is an important part of Canadian history
Fergus, that most likely EXACTLY what happened. The US realized that they could not defend themselves against a squadron of Arrows so they twisted arms until it went away. And you're absolutely correct, with continued upgrades it would still be a wirld class figgter to this day.
60 years or so after the fact, as a Canadian, this still hurts.
It just pisses me off. A Conservative government yet again scuttled hopes for a resurgence just a few short years ago when they opted for the F-35 which cant get off the ground during our winter months and is useless when compared to the Arrow.
@@MatthewSmith-wv5fi There's a pattern in Canadian history: the Tories are shit.
@@MeanBeanKerosene You ids seem to have a convenient blind spot for how Trudeau Sr sold you all down the river...
@@badlaamaurukehu Citation needed. How?
@@MeanBeanKerosene one of the many reasons i have never voted conservative
As a Canadian I had a hard time clicking on this without getting a little emotional.
That's sad buddy
@Tony Wilson Excuse me while i dry my eyes that Australia is not a top weapons seller in the world.
@Tony Wilson stfu lol
@Tony Wilson i beleive harper spent billions on the f-35s...i think we got a few as well..it was the big news but i beleive we got screwed again..canada and australia we are now followers when we were actually leaders
Dan W You’re not alone
Thank you for showing that Canada has an history to be remembered.
A history yes, a future? Doesn't look like it these days.
@@Les537 Ok Boomer.
All you guys remember the "good old days."
Expo 67, avro arrow, etc.
Trust me, as a gen z we got plenty of future.
One that's different but still a good one! 👍
crush537: Looks, these days, as though Canada has a better future than our “plague ravaged” Southern neighbours!
@@Les537 ok boomer
Sandra Streifel the Canadian dollar was much higher back in the 50s so Canada was doing better anyway.
So awesome you did the Arrow. Real sore spot for Canadians.
Sore spot or wise move? Bankrupting the Canadian economy in an endless cold war with their immediate neighbors to the north.
@CLP Would there have been a level playing field with Boeing and the rest?
George McKenna, Trudeau Sr and the US department of defense ended up bankrupting us anyhow. At least with the Arrow we would have had something to show for it.
@@scottcourage9434 From where I sit on the Detroit side of the river I find there is much I admire about the Canadians.
@@scottcourage9434 amazing how Canada did not retain the memory of trudeau. Then to vote jr back in recently. What is wrong with us?!
I could never find a model of an Arrow when young. I was a jet model geek. I found one when I moved to Australia in my teens.
I still have it over 30 years later. Great aircraft..
I still feel Canada was forced to give up one of its greatest technological marvels.
This Canadian has been waiting 2 years for this video.
Thank you History Guy
@mcketamd2 Toronto.
@mcketamd2 Edmonton, Alberta here. and everyone I know, even our Army bases here, glorify the CF-105 and are pissed that the Conservative Gov at the time claimed that pressure from the Army and Navy caused the demise of AVRO.
I live in a neighbourhood that used to be an Army Base called Griesbach. we have monuments and parks named after the Arrow.
@@Jaws10214 I live in Ontario and grew up in Toronto. I remember Malton; my dad used to take me to watch the planes take off and land..
@@Jaws10214 I worked in Edmonton in 2008 at the Petro anada refinery. Edmonton is a great city.
Back in 2007, I took my nephew to see the full size model of the Arrow at Downsview. Even the model was impressive.
I took a trip up to Barry's Bay to the monument to Jan and the Arrow. Nice trip and I was able to infect my nephew with my love of the Arrow.
Canadian sees anything Avro Arrow related:
"Hmm I wonder if I feel like gettin angry today"
Fortunately, Diefenbaker is already buried.
@MG Stevens Just another puppet.
Obviously you're not a Canadian!!
The terrible thing is the brain drain after cancellation. I guess the USA needed help to get to the moon. It’s the what could have been that keeps me watching these videos
If only the Americans had not threatened to cut "The Chief's" wavy locks and then throw him in the Rideau Canal with a pair of concrete overshoes, things might have turned out differently. (Just a theory, but possessing a goodly amount of plausibility or something of equal persuasion..)
To the day he died my Dad (ex-RCAF) never forgave them for this.
It's one thing to cancel a project. It's another thing to try to make it look like it never happened.
Unfortunately, there were confirmed Soviet spies within every aspect of the Arrow program. If Canada had gone through with the Arrow, the Soviet Union's avionics would've been that much better than the Americans'.
@@moblinmajorgeneral Likely more American corporate/government spies.
@@vincentgauthier2030 It is quite common for cancelled projects and their associated tooling to be utterly destroyed.
@@EricIrl Why are you directing this response my way? Essential to delete potential world beaters of course.
@@vincentgauthier2030 Why not. It's just a conversation.
Similar situations arose in the UK. At the end of the 1950s Britain had a whole host of advanced aircraft designs, mostly militray but some civil as well. Unfortunately, there was chiefly one customer for all these projects, the UK taxpayer. And by the end of the 1950s the British government decided that UK taxpayers should not be funding grandiose and exotic aeroplanes and similar projects. I think the Canadian government of that era went through a very similar process.
One of the saddest stories in aviation, regardless of where you're from.
As a Russian, I feel for Canadians, it feels similarly to hear about our Energia-Buran program and its untimely demise.
It was about to revolutionize the entire space industry just as Avro was about to revolutionize the aircraft.
@@mihan2d I feel the same about Britain's Blue Streak program.
Nah, the TSR 2 and YF23 are sadder stories.
The fact that Canada could have been a leader in passenger jet aircraft and combat aircraft is something that keeps Canadians up at night.
History repeats with the a220
SOMETIMES .... THE SUN NEVER RISES FOR MONTHS.
Bombardier is the 3rd largest producer of commercial aircraft in the world. It is a leader in passenger jet aircraft.
@@sheriff0017 yup, thanks to all those government handouts that usually end up in senior executive bank accounts...
@@JohnHill-qo3hb That doesn't change the achievements, it highlights corrupt management.
Some years ago I was working as a float pilot in northern Ontario, Kenora base. Had a charter to fly a pair of Realtors to a cabin northeast of town. Owner met us at the dock and invited me in for a coffee. As we walked in, owner was watching my reaction. Two walls of the living room were covered in 8x10 black and whites of the Arrow in various stages of construction.
Turns out his Dad was chief engineer on the Iroquois engine!
Small world ! My father worked on the Iroquois, went up north with the beast strapped to the B47. We lived just over a mile from the airport.
Wow!
I went with dad up to Steep Rock Mines when five and had to use the outhouse at the end of the load dock. I could read. "It doesn't do any good to stand on the seat, Steep Rock crabs can jump ten feet". We moved to the USA after Canada basically ran dad out of town. That's the story of so many Canadians. He became a multi-millionaire in mechanics with his work ethic.
As an Australian, 60 years later, it still hurts
Australia also sold out to the Americans because of bloody stupid British politics
Thank you.
Both Australia and Britain got sold down the river by their own governments and the US
I remember standing at the RCAF museum in Hamilton almost 15 years ago, when they had the recovered stuff on display. From the nose all the way back to the intakes. And right to the side of it there was this bench, and I thought: "Who could be seated in the presence of this piece of history?"
And...you don't think that this piece of metal is going to hit you, but it does. Then I kind of realized why the bench was there because I was looking at the lines, the way certain screws didn't get flush with the fuselage around the intakes, and the paint was slightly worn where the canopy would move across it...and the strength just went right out of my legs.
It just hits you: People touched this. They lived this. They BREATHED this. This thing flew twice as fast as any words to describe it. It's just amazing.
Thank you for doing this one, History Guy. I'm sure I'm far from the only one that appreciates it!
That was very touching to read. Thanks for sharing your experiences.
I've been there and saw it. It was like seeing a ghost. I definitely paused, put my hand on it, and thought of how this is all that is left of what was once a proud moment in Canadian history.
"All modern aircraft have four dimensions: span, length, height and politics. TSR-2 simply got the first three right." - Sir Sydney Camm
The Arrow suffered the same fate.
Kim Jong Il it was like everything Canadians do .... too little, too late. At least that’s what my French Canadian hottie said about Canadian men!
Two of the coolest looking jets I’ve ever seen. So sad they both got canned
What would the TSR2 have been capable of doing that couldn't be done by a Phantom though? From what I see, the TSR2's only advantage was range.
The TSR-2 was after the Avro Arrow and followed a same type story, and that was all. I saw the TSR-2 in Duxford Museum back in the early 2000s.
Thank you, History Guy, for respectfully searching outside the U.S. for history that touches us all. I love your passion for the subject, no matter what it is. Thank you for bringing your talent to RUclips!
As a Canadian and someone who thought i know everything there was to know o on the arrow; I was surprised and impressed by the details and the perspective of this video. Thank you.
As a Canadian this makes me sad.
This may make you sad, but you should dam proud of the contribution Canada had in "landing a man on the Moon and returning him safely to Earth".
Tate Volk sick is what came to my mind.
Sadder still is the fact that Tim Horton's was recently sold to Burger King.
@@MrShobar I read that Tim Horton's actually bought Burger King -- they structured it the other way around to take advantage of the lower corporate taxes in the US or something like that.
@@rabbi120348 thats just sad.
Important context: There were actually 4 separate programs - engine, air frame, navigation and fire control, and weapons system. Avro was airframe and engine (the Orenda Iroquois, which would have given the airplane basically F-15 performance). These programs were very successful and brought in at relatively low cost (couple hundred mil) up to the point of cancellation. The nav/fire cont (RCA Astra) and missile (Sparrow II) were Royal Canadian Air Force projects with Avro only integrator, and Avro had no control over them. Sparrow II (first fully active self homing radar missile) was a project abandoned by the US Navy. Astra was going to include look down radar and multiple target tracking, things that didn't happen until the F-14. The Royal Canadain Air Force took these on in its zeal to have the best of the best. But they were both simply impossible with the solid state electronics of 1959, and needed to wait for both Fairchild Semiconductor's integrated circuit revolution in the mid 60s, and Intel's microprocessor revolution of the late 60s early 70s. How far out to lunch was the RCAF? The first fire and forget radar missile was Phoenix in the 70s, which was way bigger, too big for the Arrow's weapons bay. The first fire and forget missile with the Sparrow II's intended envelope was AMRAAM in the 90s. The RCAF was pouring money into a concept literally 30 years ahead of its time. Almost two thirds of the program money went down those two rabbit holes until they were abandoned about a year before cancellation after hundreds of millions had been wasted. In the last year the plan was changed to go with off the shelf (Falcon/Hughes) but it was too late. I mostly blame the RCAF for the whole fiasco because I'm convinced it would have entered service if designed for the existing Falcon and Hughes fire control from the start, with a program cost of a 200 mil instead of 500+.
@John K: These are really excellent points you have pointed to. Carefully studied, they could put forward a whole different view of how many Canadians perceive the demise of the Arrow project.
Perhaps the RCAF was emboldened by the qualified success of the CF-100. Viewed by some as an unglamourous machine, it was the conception of the RCAF. It was intended to fill a role for what was thought no other aircraft could qualify. As it turned out, for a time it was unique in its capability to fly 'all-weather' in conditions that grounded other aircraft. The added success of the excellent Orenda engines may have put the cap on the conceit. I am old enough to remember watching them fly.
They were way ahead of their time.
Sadly, I seen firsthand those who are way ahead of their time trying to get those stuck in the past and presence their vision of what is possible.
Like Windows. It wasn't invented or Jobs or Gates.
A women lead Xerox team created it.
In short, an "automatic transmission computers.
But Xerox was more interested in copiers.
Not being able to make computers usable by the masses.
F-15 performance in strait line speed maybe but the Arrow would have handled like a light bomber and woukd have been easy pickens for fighters like the F-4.
I heard from someone who was there that the US was unwilling to sell a weapons package to Avro. Apparently the US thought that Soviet agents had infiltrated Avro or perhaps the RCAF. I have no way of knowing if this thinking was true. Of course US firms went on to sell the alternative to Canada.
@@d.hughredelmeier1960 This was confirmed after the fall of the USSR. They had a complete set of plans.
I used to live in the Alberta town that has the Canadian Aviation Hall of Fame. They were gifted a life-size replica of the Avro Arrow that was apparently incredibly precise to the original build (some gentleman's life-long hobby). Got to see it up close and even though it was made from plywood and scrap metal, it was not only a beautiful plane but a very intimidating one. It's freakin' huge!!
To add to, or emphasize some points after History Guy's excellent presentation: The CF-105 'Arrow' was a hyper-speed interceptor that was designed to intercept Russian bomber fleets over the high arctic under severe conditions. (The design called for engine changes taking merely 30 minutes.) It incorporated avionics and a weapons system that were groundbreaking in aerospace technology. The first production prototypes used American engines with which it broke successive records in performance. When AVRO's more powerful Iroquois engines were installed, performance was further enhanced. Tragically, the full potential of the Iroquois powered CF-105 was never fully realized. The newly elected Progressive Conservative government scuttled the entire Arrow program causing the dismantling of allied technologies before the ultimate testing of the Arrow was completed. Canadian aircraft design and manufacture was left to De Havilland of Canada. DHC produced very notable contributions to world civil aviation with often innovative designs that have included the Beaver, Otter, Twin Otter, Caribou and Dash 7 and 8 series. The Arrow's demise was a grievous blow to Canadian industry, which arguably reverberates today. And yes, according to some sources, there was some thought given to exploration of the moon using the Arrow as a launch vehicle in the upper reaches of the stratosphere. However fanciful this might be, it reflects an ongoing, national enthusiasm for the untested potential thought to have been in the Arrow program.
"Russian bomber fleets over the high arctic"
That's the issue.
By 1960 shooting down bombers was a nonconcern. The Liberals like usual were spending a boatload of money on a useless concept.
Are you forgetting Canadair ?
@@CaptHollister - You mean Bombardier, a Québec based-tax leech?
@@doogleticker5183 Canadair predates Bombardier by several decades, but don't let that get in the way of your Québec bashing. Btw, you realize that DeHavilland is also part of Bombardier, do you ?
@Peter Rogan Lol, grasping at straws there bud.
You answered your own question. The YF-12 was a testbed for the SR-71 which actually saw production(limited).
And what was the SR-71? A reconnaisance plane. Why didn't they arm it if it was such a great idea?
Don't use a handful of prototype experiments to try to make a point. The YF-12 was a testing vehicle, they were trying different things. It shows the answer perfectly that weapons were dropped for the black bird, because it was found to be pointless.
And for Avro? A company that bases its entire existence on a single government-funded project doesn't deserve to exist.
A whole wack of companies went bust in the 50's and 60's. Not because of some conspiracy but because the jucy WW2 contacts that built them had run out. Avro would have died any other way, just like countless other major aerospace companies.
The AVRO Arrow isn’t just an aircraft, it’s a national grudge.
ARROW**
The Maples want more sunlight and the Oaks ignore their pleas.
@@SilverFox-qr1ci - Obviously, no "Rush" to give credit to the writer of that line.
We feel your pain brothers, only a few years later the UK's TSR2 met a similar end (including the tooling destruction) thanks to short sighted politicians (and some oft rumoured brown envelopes from the US).
You mad bro?!?!
I really appreciate the amount of Canadian history you cover. Thank you sir.
One thing they can never take aways is our pride. May we never let this story die.
Thanks you for doing this excellent vignette on the Avro Arrow. As you can see from other posts, this is a sore point for us Canadians. You have managed to encapsulate the key elements of the Arrow's story and more importantly the effect it had on the Canadian aeronautical industry. This was a blow from which we have never recovered. We lost our place as a world leader in aerospace design and manufacturing. I think your channel is the best offering there is on RUclips. Congratulations and keep it up!
At 5:12, we see a complete Orenda 10 engine. I have one of those in my shop right now in final assembly. The canceling of the Arrow and its Iroquois engine was a shame, but the thinking behind it is something that can be understood. What bugs me is the way everything was destroyed, with a thoroughness that was almost malicious. Our aerospace industry has never recovered; we are a subcontractor to the USA. Not a bad consolation, but Jeez... what might have been.
Lots of videos of working on and testing the Orenda 10 and 14 turbojets on my channel.
I KNOW YOU.
YOU ARE MASTER.
MEEKNESS.
SOLA FIDES AND BONA FIDES.
AgentJayZ Sadly circa that time tooling and plans for lots of projects were destroyed as espionage was a very real concern. They likewise destroyed the tooling and plans for the SR-71s after they got done building them. Hell even recently when the US Sec Def asked about the feasibility of restarting the F-22 Raptor line but when they opened Connex boxes that should have contained the tooling it was missing and they concluded it must have been destroyed.
Dude I love your videos!
The premises behind the Avro Arrow as a costly up front, critical path, mass production, crash program interceptor of soviet bombers were faulty. At the time of its cancellation it was a nice flying platform with no suitable weapons systems in sight. All the huge real world expenses involved in creating and operating the air defense bases and support facilities "at the front" were going to be mind boggling. Canada was heading into a big recession at the time and the governing party was pro western Canada in its outlook and winter works right now, bricks and mortar in its employment mindset. The RCAF and the aerospace industry thought they had created a set piece "too be to be cancelled by politicians" fortress. They were wrong.
@@keithpennock Either that or they were shipped to China.
The greatest travesty in Canadian aviation history.
@@GrizzAxxemann Yes all the "smart ones" moved to the province that can't figure out how to keep afloat when oil is less than $120/barrel. Hate to break it to you, but all the misassigned racist hatred you can muster up isn't going to change the global price of oil for you. Instead of using your "smarts" to whine about cultures you don't understand, maybe you should put that effort toward diversifying your economy.
For sure. Canada doesn't even has its own car make. Sure, we build cars for America, (Ford GT). That's why they see us as their little sister. Makes me feel like the fat kid.
@@altrag racist? where the fuck did you get that, bonehead? Since when were morons, idiots and commies RACES? Oh wait. Nevermind. I get it now. You're one of those demographics that gets offended by anything and everything. Keep chirping chickadee, I'm done with you.
Same happened to trs2 and the British space program black arrow and prospero it sickens me
Lol... Grizz Axxemann.
You are so wrong. About everything.
Both of my grandfathers worked on that project. One ran an engineering company that did design work and he was present on that October 4 day. The other worked on the factory floor assembling aircraft.
This is for many of us a very sore point, as well as a point of pride.
On a slightly pedantic note: it's pronounced Deef N Baker without the long "a" sound in the last syllable.
Thanks for your work.
All through school in the late ‘50s and early ‘60s, history was my least favorite subject. That might have been much different if I had had teachers like you. Thanks for producing one of the RUclips channels on my “must watch” list.
I hated history in school as well, way to intent on beating dates into our heads rather than discussing why it happened. Why will always be more interesting and important than the exact date.
Interesting time in aviation, late 50's early 60's. Some call it the "Golden Age" of aviation. To look at all the aircraft that was in development at that time, and realize it was done with slide rules and brain power.
You go Mr. The History Guy!!! You go!!
60 years later it is still a bone of contention in Canada.
Thank you for covering this. Yes we're still sour about it.
Thank you so much for adding this story to your channel. As a Canadian involved in the aerospace industry it still pains me to think that we traded what could have been the best aircraft at the time for the dog that was the bomarc missle system.
There are many theories as to where the last Arrow ended up. I'd like to think that it was taken by Lockheed and used in the development of their future endeavors
A few years later the equally advanced British TSR2 suffered a similar fate.
Thank you THG. Right up my street, as we say here.
The TSR 2 was a high speed high penetration strike plane. Yes equally advanced and shafted none the less. Had a similar but not as drastic effect on the British aviation industry as well.
yep---I was going to mention that. This sort of thing has happened many times with British inventions and ''breakthroughs' only for Politics and US rivalry to crush them.
@@keitheckensviller250 The terrain following function that TSR2 pioneered was suspiciously similar to that later incorporated into the F-111. Allegedly.
Like the Arrow the TSR-2 was obsolete before it ever entered production. The Soviet bomber threat never materialized and ICBM's made advanced dedicated interceptors obsolete.
@@Bellthorian you sure about that? The TU-95's (introduced in 1952) still trundle down the North Sea testing that the UK is paying attention to this very day...
As a Canadian, that was one of the best compositions concerning the arrow I have heard in a long time. Many see Black Friday as the day Canada lost its greatness. Thankyou for making sure the legacy of the arrow has not been forgotten. I still dream of seeing one fly one day.
Building a replica scale model is the only way now.
To my neighbors to the north:. That is one kick ass plane. Would have loved to see that and an sr 71 flying side by side.
Apart from NASA, and Concorde, a number of AVRO Arrow people ended up at the Skunk Works and helped on the Blackbird too.
I’m sure the comment was made figuratively as the SR71 was just a little bit faster. But I understand what he meant. My second favourite plane is the 71. Many planes today have roots in the AA. A little side note...the Arrow the flew was using an engine that was not planned of staying in. The planned engine was still being made at the time of the flight test.
PikPobedy yes I know the speed difference and which one is the faster of the two. Let me type this slowly for you so you can understand. The original poster was speaking FIGURATIVELY. He was saying In The Same Era. Not in the same air space as they would not share said air space but for a fraction of time!
there was another kick in the ass plane east of you across the pond the TRS2
Semper Fidelis Brother
My great uncle was an engineer working on the Arrow's Iroquois Engine. He had a great amount of knowledge that did not go to waste in the end. It was always a touchy subject whenever Canadian aviation was brought up in conversation, as one of the few things that would ever cause his calm and cool demeanor to disappear was the Arrow. He felt robbed of an opportunity to make Canadian aviation something to be sought after and admired by the world. Not just for military application, but civilian and space application.
I really enjoyed your segment on the Arrow and the history surrounding the company, while highlighting that the minds moved elsewhere and propelled some of the largest projects of the century.
Definitely history that deserves to be remembered, but it makes me weep. I'm not even Canadian.
Please do a piece on the British TSR.2 , again a great aircraft, as was the Avro Arrow, with lots of potential and pretty much came to the same end, both physically, with everything broken up and destroyed including manufacturing jigs and engineering plans and also politically destroyed as much as the Avro Arrow was.
The resemblance of the fates of these two aircraft is to great to be ignored.
It most certainly is to great to be ignored. 2 of the probably the finest aircraft of their time, consigned to the dust bin in pretty much the same way. Coincidence ? I think not, especially when taking into account the total destruction of the jigs, plans and almost nothing left, except a cockpit section of an Arrow in Canada, and also 2 complete TSR.2's in the UK, in museums and that is it.
@Peter Rumsby It's the joooooosss. idiot.
using war debt as leverage the usa forced rubbish on the world
Wait, your name is Mark Plane?
Was fortunate to call one of those Avro engineers a friend. He retired to the west coast of Vancouver Island after working on the Apollo program. Was a navigator in ww2, worked at Avro on the Arrow, and then worked on the space program. Still razor sharp before passing away a couple of years ago. Accurately calculated the flight path for one of the more recent Mars missions. His dream was to set foot on Mars.
The cancellation of the Arrow will always be a sore spot on Canadian history. Thanks for the great video THG!
I love listening to this fine historical man !! I have enjoyed everyone of his documentaries !!
A Canadian co-worker of mine told me about the Arrow story years ago. I very glad to hear more about it! Thanks!
I remember the first time I heard about the Arrow story. I almost cried at what was lost. That airplane was at least a generation ahead of it's time.
In fact it still is ahead of its time. Yes the electronic are not but the basic design would still hold its own on any aircraft today of course with the iroquois engines 2300mph
@@jimanderson2518 Don't forget it was the first aircraft to be fitted with wireless controls.
And they were doing some calculations, and they figured that they could with the proper engine, get it up to mach 4.
@@greatcanadianmoose3965 The Iroquois was rated for M3.3 at the time, but was capable of 4 + with rework.
@@jimanderson2518 No, it wouldn't hold it's own in anyway against any modern fighter. Maybe against a MiG-21, but that's reaching
Some years ago, I met Janusz Żurakowski, the test pilot. An amazingly brave gentleman in his time.
I can imagine how much better the world would be if there were educators(teachers) that had passion, and gave kids something to look forward to.. hats off your videos are top shelf.
Thank you very much THG for this episode. From a Canuck.
Funny coincidence I just saw the remaining nose section at the Air and Space Museum in Ottawa last week. A key loss after cancelation was the Iroquois jet engine which was also highly advanced....damn that Diefenbacher ;-)
You may find this interesting -
_The Lost AVRO Arrow Iroquois_
ruclips.net/video/yfnT2Akem6Q/видео.html
@Jon Tipping Yes there is one on display at the Air and Space museum as well....though there are no plans to refurbish it....it sits near the nose section against the wall. I subscribe to AgentJZ's channel from S & S Turbines in BC who are working on restoring the Iroquois from England. Good on them for taking that huge job on. ruclips.net/video/wKsNaeJJe24/видео.html
seaglider844 The engines were jawdropping, the complicated titanium engineering was world pioneering in advanced innovation, the design as a whole was highly spectacular, the performance was setting up to be so superior as to be a threat to everyone incl the Commies AND the USA. Sabotaging it was so easy... And the utterly useless Bomarc and followup substandard fighters we "agreed" to buy from the USA as an alternative? Disgusting, and greater waste of money over time.
FFS, I hate every Canuck govt that ever existed since.
And wait for five minutes to have some dicklark spout off on how useless, inconsequential and caveman Canadians are. Ive seen years of trogs state "the Arrow wasnt even half the plane of (fill in the blank American craft)". Usually the same flatheads who dismiss our involvement in both world wars in equal judgement. Pathetic thing is,mour "education system " up here consistently pushed the same socialist-based self loathing ideology that guaranteed no generation but the best one,would ever know appreciate or respect our own verifiable and worthy heritage, so losses on two fronts.
YOU'RE WELCOME, re: all our scientists that filled so many brainspots south of our border btw.
@@seaglider844 The one in the Air & Space museum is a 0 hour engine , it would only need new seals to run.
What's that museum like? I have some of my father's hand tools from his employment at A.V. Roe as a machinist. Some might be from his time before that at Rolls Royce. When I google the museum/AVRO restoration groups, it's like they have locations around Ontario so I can't get straight what is still active and what is some other group.
I got tired of learning of museums and groups popping up and then not getting enough funding so they folded, e.g. the place at the old CFB Downsview came and went.
Anyway if I think it's viable, I'd reach out to see if they are interested. The Warplane Heritage Museum wasn't - never replied.
Thanks for the intriguing account of the Avro Arrow. What might have been was lost although some say there is still one of the original functioning Avros still around. I've heard stories of the Avro CF-105 breaking the sound barrier from Milton to Barrie and back. Most Canadians who know, still wish.
I know there are a lot of Canadians that see the decision as insane. However, from what I've seen of the Arrow's performance and capabilities, it didn't outperform the contemporary Phantom, and the Phantom wasn't just an interceptor; it was a general air superiority fighter and fighter-bomber as well. It covered every role from interceptor to fleet defense fighter to land-based air superiority to deep interdiction to Iron Hand/SEAD to nuclear strike to reconnaissance. About the only thing it didn't do well was close support, and it did close support about as well as any other high speed fighter.
The Arrow on the other hand seems designed in a way likely to make it unsuited for any role other than intercepting high and fast bombers (and perhaps reconnaissance) although if others have a counterargument, I'd be interested to hear it.
I'd say Canada didn't need a multi-role fighter at home...what we needed was something to prowl and protect our vast north, and stop the bombs from falling on us, and the US. We had no world-wide interests to protect, and NATO commitments would be better served with other equipment.
Several years ago I watched a Mini-series about this with Dan Aykroyd.
Willie Williams - I hope he enjoyed watching it with you.
Several years ago indeed...like twenty two years ago. That came out in 1997.
I was lucky to be at the premiere showing at the CBC. Great evening as I sat between a movie star and an astronaut. The Arrow test pilot Janusz Żurakowski signed an autograph.
That was a really good series. Aykroyd did a great job!!
CBC The Arrow ruclips.net/video/9PMnlnqRex4/видео.html
Thank you HG, You did the Arrow program and the Canadian aviation/aerospace industry justice in your history vignette. Much appreciated! Would be great if you also covered the Canadian aviation manufacturers Canadair in Montreal & DeHaviland Canada in Toronto of the same time period.
First Canadian on the Moon: "Yeah, sure does look like my hometown of Sudbury eh."
And the first thing they'd do is build the first hockey rink on the Moon.
Been to your home town recently? It has made a miraculous and award winning recovery. From a desolate industrial ravaged moonscape it is now a jewel in Canada's near north.
@@dave_yeg8596 I think a Timmies comes first
@@frankpinmtl ....maybe.
@@fergusmallon1337 Apologies, yes Sudbury is quite nice now. Back in the 60s though I think was actually used for astronaut training in geology.
This story still makes me sad. Canada could have been on the leading edge of Aerospace tech. Instead, we pissed it all away.
Instead today we throw money at a company that cannot manage itself..Bombardier.
Canada is a leader. The Arrow myth is nonsense it was outdated before it was complete. The US also canceled interceptor programs.
@@TheOwenMajor give your head a shake, the only reason the Arrow was completely obliterated was because the States didn't want Canada to get ahead of them. The U.S. convinced Dief. the thief to destroy and cut up every scrap of the Arrow and destroy all of the blue prints, even though the first flight proved to be faster than any other aircraft in the air.
@@arnoldanderson1501 Please explain to me the logic of continuing development of the Arrow then.
The Arrow was a great interceptor. It would have been great at shooting down Soviet bombers.
The issue however is that shooting down bombers wasn't a concern by the late 50's. Their advantage of being able to fly high to avoid fighters was eliminated by better technology in missles, engines and radar ect. which allowed SAMs and cheaper more versatile fighter aircraft to shoot them down. In addition ICBMs rendered bombers redundant. They were not the primary nuclear threat anymore.
The plans were destroyed because the Soviets had infiltrated the program. Perhaps a little drastic but it had logic behind the decision.
As a Canadian and an aviation enthusiast it breaks my heart that the Arrow never went to production. It never flew with the engines that were designed for it, and it still went to mach 2. If only they could have flow with the Iroquois engines, what could have been.
Always mad at Diefenbaker, lets cancel the Arrow, then purchase the USA made Bomarc missile, then the USA made Northrop CF-101 Voodoo. So mad.
But thanks for the great video!
I believe the Voodoo was so unreliable and had so many Accidents that it was Nicknamed: The Widow Maker.
Learned of this via the 1997 movie "The Arrow," staring Dan Aykroyd, of all people. The movie is not a comedy, don't let Aykroyd's name fool you.
Same here. That was a great miniseries. I almost cried in frustration at the end...Aykroyd was awesome in that role.
@@PaulBachant Absolutely.
Anthony Hargis, is this movie on the internet or Free TV
@@davidvance6367 You can watch the whole thing right here on youtube, here's the link: ruclips.net/video/9PMnlnqRex4/видео.html
I am proud, as a Canadian, to say that this show is a Canadian production.
@@davidvance6367 I actually have the movie, but . . . it seems to be on RUclips: ruclips.net/video/9PMnlnqRex4/видео.html
Even though I'm American, and very proud of our aerospace record, this whole sad circus sickens me.
Agreed....
Thank you for your compassion.
You are a class act. Thank you.
It took decades for Canada's aviation industry to recover .
The one good thing is a bunch of Canadian engineers decided to go to the moon using USA money! Joined NASA. My god father was one. Remember the days when our counties where good friends? We got shit done!
Thank you so much for posting this, and helping make people aware of this. To this day, many people in Canada refuse to let go of this. There has been a slow-building rise of a group looking to initiate a "Arrow II" project.
Also worth noting is that the Arrow, from the 1950s, has a longer range than an F-35, a higher intercept speed than an F-35, and higher payload capacity than an F-35. And it was designed decades ago.
You are wrong on several levels. The F-35 has more than DOUBLE the range of the Avro Arrow. The F-35 also has a higher payload capacity when using external hard points.
Theokolese The Shadow Of Death Shhh - don’t destroy the rah rah maple leaf reverie they got going on.
@@jthunders The arrow destroyed 4 speed records for its first flight and it had a very advanced informatic system for the 1950s.
I have always heard Deifenbacher's name pronounced as 'Deifenbaker'.
your correct as far as iv always heard it "Deifenbaker"
Yeah, but we didn't like his cancellation of the Arrow, so mispronounce away.
@@gerrya4818 I am actually Old Enough to Remember when The Deif had Passed Away. So I got to hear the Correct Pronouncement of his Name a lot for several weeks.
@@davedruid7427 His nickname was actually "The Chief"
You are right Diefenbacher pronounced his name Deifenbaker however now I live in Switzerland I realise he is pronouncing it as the German’s would and the name sounds German.
Thank you. It really is history that needs to be remembered.
An excellent short on the darkest time in Canadian history. Apparently after Black Friday, my neighbour's father, an engineer at Avro, purchased the land our house is on with money from his settlement. In 1997 a movie on the CF 105 was made, with Kingstons Dan Aykroyd as Crawford Gordon. An interesting point is Aykroyd's mother was Crawford Gordon.'s secretary at Avro Canada, thus a strong, personal attachment for Aykroyd.
Dear Mr History Guy : This is a real gem. I was in high school at Burnhamthorpe CI , located close to Malton , Ont. Several of my class mates had parents working on the Avro Arrow., from test pilots to engineers So it we were all proud of the test plane When PM Defenbaker canceled the program. I still blame him for the loss of our promising aviation industry. I still feel pride at what we had the potential to accomplish. Imagine , today if we were still a contributor to the main thrust of space instead of on the fringe. Thanks again . Brian 79
The Nose section is at the Air and Space museum in Ottawa, they also have a set of wings tucked away in the Hanger next to the museum. The rollout model at 7:40 was amazing and its such a massive jet at full scale. Sadly even the Malton factory buildings are long gone, so much history around that area. Great video thanks.
There's also an Arrow nose cone at our Naval Aviation Museum in Calgary.
My grandfather was a QA engineer at Victory Aircraft during the war. He had such great stories about going up in Lancasters with the test pilots.
One of my friends who is Canadian and now living here in the States told me about the Avro Arrow a few years back. Pretty impressive aircraft. His uncle was part of the brain drain and actually worked on the design of the landing gear for the LEM. Pretty cool.
LEM's landing gears were made in Montréal
Ok I then stand a bit corrected in that he then didn't leave Canada for the States. I was just assuming that after the statement in this video. Thank you for the correction.
@@captainkiddoregon He might as well worked on it from the States like design. So many small Co from all around worked on the LEM.
And quite a few Canadian engineers and physicists assisted during the Apollo 13 accident. I'd say because so many NASA engineers were Canadians and former Avro engineers they called home for help.
I am one of them Canadians wondering thank you for this
Thank you so much for remembering what my country once built!! Love your show!
Btw, just fyi, its deef en baker.
I am old enough to remember seeing the Arrow fly over our home in Mississauga. I watched it a few times arc over our home and accelerate leaving the chase jets like they were standing still!
I bet that is a special memory to have! Wow, thats like seeing the Beatles in concert!
A time when science and technology advancements were not only frequent, but tangible to everyone from the youngest schoolboy to the eldest grandmother. Must have been an interesting and exciting time to be alive.
The flight records actually tell the tale. The Arrow easily did supersonic in climbs and one can only imagine what might have been if the testing and further modifications had occurred. Maybe we'll see a flying model come out of Springbank, Alberta someday.
Yup, still pissed about this. Diefenwanker screwed us all.
R, 55 years ago Canada currency was worth 7% more than American. Canada shoppers had a great time buying on the American side of the border. There definitely is a border now though. Back then it was pretty much imaginary. Now might as well be the Berlin Wall
Diefenbaker was a CIA puppet
I think he made the same decision the Liberals would've made had they been elected in '57 and '58.
@@SwagDoge71Vab2
Diefenbaker didn't really like Americans, save a warm relationship with DDE.
He absolutely hated Kennedy.
@@raynus1160 Perhaps, but I think that canada could have been like Switzerland as far as tech/military hardware if the Arrow went forward. Making some of the world's best hardware while not feeling like using it as other nations do
My new favorite RUclips channel. I love history and The History Guy is not obnoxious or politicized (so far as I’ve observed in the last dozen videos I’ve watched) like The Science Guy. Keep up the great work. I love it.
Science guy is a fraud
Thank you for this. As a Canadian every time I see or hear about the Arrow I get angry, we were betrayed by Diefenbaker.
You should be used to it by now . Reminds of your current criminal Prime Minister !!
@@todd3285 One should never get used to betrayal, but yeah it is par for the course up here.
@@timsimms65707 Trust me Tim . We feel your pain here too !!
This sounds freakishly similar to the British TSR2 program
Or the XB-70 or any number of similar projects.
@@Justanotherconsumer - They're all similar in that canceling them was the right decision given the changes in technology of the day; the YF-12 bit the dust for the same reason. The development of the ICBM and high speed SAM meant high and fast bombers were obsolete and unsurvivable, and so therefore the high and fast interceptor was obsolete as well. The only one that survived this time was the MiG-25.
Enjoy your RUclips videos. Back in the early 80’s I worked for a Detroit manufacture of parts for Auto components and aircraft fastening. One of the older engineers design a fastening for engines going Mach something. He had worked at AVRO until, Black Friday. The computer power he needed was massive for his designs. Being a young computer guy we talked and had lunch together. I think of him when I fly and his rivet design for Mach 3.
Thank you for this video.
Love this story, thanks for sharing
You did a great job explaining this fact of our air history. The best I've ever heard. Thank you.
This is the best researched concise piece on the subject, especially non Canadian perspective . Nailed all the key facts. My aunt worked on design on the project. Two other factors I remember her mentioning from back then.... a discussion on lobby groups from the south having influence and US concern over Boris & Natasha (soviet spies) having free reign over the plant. Apparently security was a, little too loose back then in Malton. Actually, I just found the security pass to the plant . Times have changed
Didn't mention that it hit 1.9 mach as a prototype WITHOUT the design engines (Orenda Iroquois).
Thanks History Guy and Canadians, I learned a lot. From someone else's piece partly about the Avro Arrow it mentioned that the parent companies and govt in the UK had majorly invested and overlapped investments in the V-bombers, Vulcan, Victor and another one. So much money and focus had gone into those and effort to keep British aero companies going well, there wasn't much left to build and keep the Avro Canadian projects, esp Arrow. And as mentioned here as well, the Interceptor type aircraft, which includes the beloved Vulcan, were being made unlikely to be used in real big war/ less Cold War need because of ICBM's becoming the future. British govt and air industry had enough to keep the Vulcan going, but turned away/ failed to support the Avro Arrow.
Excellent job of covering the travesty of the Avro Arrow and the Avro Jetliner...what might have been...oh Canada!
The US did not want Canada to have the Arrow. These two videos explain what happened, based on the actual archival documented record. ruclips.net/video/ulCTf-KJ2Eo/видео.html Update USA
ruclips.net/video/fdxum2OiBeQ/видео.html The Avro Arrow: For the Record
My grandfather worked on the arrow and was so angry when the project ended
Thank you, History Guy, for contributing to the awareness of the Arrow.
One point I would like to make: sixteen months after the cancellation of the Arrow project, the Diefenbaker government purchased from the USA fifty-six F101 Voodoo all-weather interceptors for the purpose of front-line point defence of Canada's borders (precisely the Arrow's role). Therefore, "obsolescence" was never a true and valid reason for the cancellation of the Arrow.
Dandelion Down too: There were several reasons why the Arrow was cancelled, and obsolescence was a pretty big part of that decision. The moment Sputnik achieved orbit, the need for purpose-built interceptors designed to counter massed formations of high-altitude, supersonic bombers vanished. The U.S. cancelled several interceptor programs around the same time as the Arrow, so it was not simply a matter of politics confined to Canada, but a major realignment in strategic thinking all across the Western world. If the F-106 had first flown the same year as the Arrow instead of a year earlier, it likely would have been cancelled too and for the same reason. But regardless, Canada still needed a replacement for their aging, sub-sonic CF100s to counter intrusions by lone Russian bombers into their airspace, and the F101B was a logical and affordable choice that fit the role well into the 1980s.
Tremendous design, beautiful lines . Complete package !
This Canadian has been waiting a long time for this
As a Canadian it's a little ironic that the best and most well researched and presented snippets of Canadian history are from an American -- The History Guy.
Although there are several documentaries about The Arrow, I've got to say this video is a very succinct and well researched presentation.
My dad did service calls at A.V. Roe in Malton just before I was born. We grew up in the general area. He saw both the Arrow fly and also got a glimpse of the Aerocar.
Well done History Guy!
"DiefenBacher" LOL!! I guess Oroville Redenbacher had a cousin. 🇨🇦. We got robbed. Plain and simple. Every aeronautical engineer was hired by US companies.
No, not all of them. There were a handful who insisted on staying in the country and work for deHavilland or Canadair. I met a few of them when I started working in the aerospace world back in 1978.
Some of them went to Europe and worked on the Concord. It was the concretive party that cancelled the plane. I have never voted for these destroyers and never will. They call then selves UCP, Con... PC etc but they are all want to go back to the dark ages and live in the dessert follow the 2000 year old superstitions
R TeBokkel, if every aeronautical engineer was bought off from America. Then no doubt it's anyones fault in the United States. Certainly seems Canadian intelligence flopped big time
32 ex-Avro Engineers found work stateside.
It’s pronounced “dee-fen-BAKER”
Whatever the case, what an exceedingly gorgeous airplane it was!
Thanks for doing a video on this. This was my "boogie man" story my Dad and I would talk about growing up. It is a terrible sore spot that has reached mythical levels. The combination of bad decisions and circumstances really are maddening. Probably the most maddening part is that no one can seem to say who gave the destruction orders. Diefenbaker denied it in his memoir and all of the Avro personnel said they never gave the order as well. I think things wouldn't be quite as bad today if we simply didn't destroy everything. Great closing statements on this whole affair.
The saddest day in aeronautical industries and all aircraft lovers in Canada and beyond !!!
One of my favourite episodes of yours that I’ve watched, and one of my all time favourite aircraft. Thumbs up!
21 years ago there was a purge of nurses from Canada. My then infant son contracted RSV which is more times than not fatal to babies. By chance, at Sanra Rosa Childrens Hospital in San Antonio, Tx in the ICU for children was a one of those Canadian nurses. If she had to get more than arns reach from my son throughout her 12 hour shift, she would beckon someone to his side until she could return to his side. So diligent was she, that in that afternoon i was overcome with a feeling that my son was going to make it. Not only did he make it, he baffled the entire staff of doctors and nurses as to his amazing recovery and was discharged from the hospital within 48 hours that even when cured should have been7 to 10 days. Was she just a nurse or 1 of his guardian angels, i don't know, but i'll never forget her superhuman effort and the thought that she was the reason why my son was a miracaculous cure of that dreaded illness. My point is this. If the drain of talent in the aerospace industry was indicative of that nurse, god only knows what Canada and the World lost because of it. We might very well be colonizing Mars at the writing of this comment. Might note my son will be 23 in a few days and gave me a granddaughter last April that as or more beautiful than the Gerber baby. God Bless Canada and that nurse, wherever you are today. Thank you ain't enough...
The pronunciation the Deifenbaker name was changed during WWI for the same reason the monarchy was changed to Windsor.
Dan Aykroyd starred in a four part miniseries, for the CBC, about the Avro Arrow, called "The Arrow".
ah
The U.S. Government at the time couldn't stand the fact that the Canadians had produced a better interceptor aircraft than anything they had in their inventory. Diefenbaker caved to U.S. pressure, thinking that Canada needed Uncle Sams help to combat the Soviet threat. The Arrow was easily 20 years ahead of it's time. Love the History Guy.
Let me introduce to you the F-4 Phantom. First flight was just two months after the Arrow's first flight. The F-104 also had similar capability and cost 3-4 times less than the Arrow was estimated at in full production. So uh... Your claims don't hold much water.
The US canceled interceptor programs as well.
The arrow myth is pure nonsense. The plane was outdated, very simple.
Really good at shooting down Soviet bombers. The issue was nobody was concerned about shooting down bombers by the end of the 50's. They are big and slow. In the early 50's they could fly high which made fighter aircraft incapable of downing them, hence interceptors. By the late 50's missile technology combined with radar improvements and engine technology meant SAM and fighter aircraft could effectively shoot them down, no more need for an interceptor.
@@TheOwenMajor The concept of the interceptor was over.they were no match for Intercontinental Ballistic missiles.
@@SealFredy5 Not to mention that the F106 was operational months before the Arrows first test flight.
Thanks!
Thank you!
this one brought real tears to my eyes. such a short sighted disaster.
Beautiful aircraft envy of most airforces, saw the ‘105’ fly over “Malton” airport several times. Gutted me when Dief. Cancelled & hacked them to pieces!
You brought up a very interesting topic, 1942 Packard Motor Car Company stopped making cars, retooled their plant from SAE to Metric (Not sure if it was called Imperial or British) and started to produce the Merlin engine for the British. It was felt that it was easier for Packard to change to Metric rather than having the field units in the UK change to SAE. Packard also produced the marine engines used in the PT boats. Packard, one of the 4 orphan cars in the U.S. that still has a hugh following and some of their cars are very valuable today. Thank you for an interesting show.
Sounds like a peculiarly British story - engineers, designers and scientists do fantastic, groundbreaking work, then at the last minute the government pulls the rug out from under them.
Where have we heard that before?
what was it?
Like the Arrow. The TSR2 was an amazing aircraft. Both suffered strangely similar fates.
@Ian Macfarlane You beat me to it. See also Miles M.52, Blue Streak, Short Belfast, TSR-2...
those war loans were big leverage against the empire
This has happened quite a lot in the States as well. X-33 had finished the bulk of development and construction, only to be canceled because politicians didn't like it's change from using carbon fiber to stainless steel fuel tanks.
The vehicle would have been a single stage fully reusable crew shuttle, cancelled during final assembly because of the personal whims of politicians.
Watching this guy for years, did not expect to hear about National SteelCar here. Worked there for years. Place has a wild history
Love your work. There's others out there copying your style but yours is still the most compelling viewing. Keep it up!
The Arrow and the TSR-2, what could have been!
What *should* have been.
war debt was leverage against the empire
The "Never was ,what ifs". The Arrow was competition to the US aircraft of the day and was way over budget, way behind schedule and nobody wanted it. The TSR-2 only ONE was ever produced it was over budget, overpriced , over-politicized, and overdue.
@@servico100 more than one TSR 2 was made
You mean, what could have been IF ONLY our nation had twice the GDP (or a government willing to spend as if it did).
Still break our hearts. Our nation is scared from the cancellation of this beautiful bird
What you didn't say. My Dad worked on the assembly line of the Avro Arrow. He was beyond proud of this. We lived in Brampton and would hear the test flights breaking the sound barrier. If you were outside, you would stop and watch and marvel. It was a beautiful sound. We would hear the wind tunnel tests too.
if the CF105 continued they could have also built one of the first super sonic passenger aircraft to compete with the Concorde. What a shame so much potential.
All the money wasted on Avro Arrow, HMCS Bras D'Or, Bobcat APC, etc. would have been wiser spent on Avro 102 airliner.
stan sheldon, It's a shame alright. It's a shame that the backstabbers didn't catch a bullet for their treacherous acts against the Canadian people.
@@davidvance6367 Traitors rarely get paid their proper due. :(
That potential scared the world.
With continuous upgrades, the Arrow would still be a superior fighter bomber comparable to the F18 but with long range capability. It was designed with the defence of Canada in mind and Canada is a massive country. The total destruction of the project was sudden and unexpected and was never fully explained by the government. It is widely believed, as I do, that Washington threatened the Conservative government with economic reprisals if they continued to production of the Arrow. If so this was a direct infringement of Canadian sovereignty. Thank you, History Guy. This is an important part of Canadian history
Yes a 60 year old platform get a brain .
Fergus, that most likely EXACTLY what happened. The US realized that they could not defend themselves against a squadron of Arrows so they twisted arms until it went away. And you're absolutely correct, with continued upgrades it would still be a wirld class figgter to this day.
Sorry... It was designed to intercept, it wasn’t a dogfighter. It would have made a crappy fighter bomber and would not be “still in service”.
@@AnyClownShoe Ah well, I just go around repeating what I have heard. I really don't know
@@michaellebreton4294 B52 is older. Why must we endure such boorishness?