What if Italy Was Divided Like Germany After WWII?
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- Опубликовано: 26 сен 2024
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After the war, Germany was split in two. Yet Japan and Italy were spared the same fate. What if in an alternate timeline things had gone differently. Say Italy had an election which risked it's own autonomy? Where it splitting would be decided for the sake of Cold War rivalries? A timeline where Italy was divided like Germany after WWII.
Twitter: / althistoryhub
Patreon: / alternatehistoryhub
Special thanks to EmperorTigerstar for the suggestion. Check out his channel if you don't know who he is already. ruclips.net/user/EmperorTigerstar
Thank you emperor tigerstar
Suggestion: What if the Bolsheviks lost the Russian Revolution
What if Western Roman Empire live & Easter Roman Empire die?
I have always wondered what if italy managed to invade greece during ww2 what would happen next would he invade the rest of the balkans,would he invade egypt by attacking from greece or would he invade other neighboring countries like turkey,spain,or portugal.
so... where do you lie on the political compass
“A unified Italy is a danger to European and world peace”
-No one
England after losing Euro 2020
Please stop giving me mean comments. My mother reads the comments I get and she cries a lot because of it. Please be nice, dear wa
@@AxxLAfriku you are like a game called among us, you are just everywhere, however unlike you, among us was actually liked.
They must not have oil.
@@AxxLAfriku
No
Southern Italy was much more monarchist than the north so it could have resulted in the kingdom of Italy surviving in the south
so in only 150 years, the family of Sardinia-Piedmont would have these titles:
Duchy of Savoy -> Kingdom of Sardinia (Savoy-Piedmont) -> Kingdom of Italy -> Empire of Ethopia and Kingdom of Italy -> Empire of Ethopia and Kingdom of Italy and Albania -> Kingdom of Italy -> Exile -> Kingdom of (south) Italy
That is a real roller coaster ride.
@@derorje2035 parkour!
That's assuming the monarchy stays. The referendum on the monarchy was in 1946. The turning point is 1948.
countryball and satw?
@@derorje2035 a centuries long march from Burgundy to Sicily
"democratically elected communists and socialists into power"
Ooh.
That's like holding a red flag to a bull, except the bull is America and the red flag is a, uh, red flag-
"Democraticly elected communism"
USA : ...say sike right now...
@@cristi5137 It's funny because it happened
@@jebpvpw.dgaster.3662 Almost*
@@dejanbeep6293 Uh no. It happened, Chile is a thing
@@jebpvpw.dgaster.3662 not only Chile
fell asleep watching a documentary about Mussolini, woke up to this and was confused as fuck before I realised that this was an alternate history channel. Stellar video tho
Lol
Alternate history? Comrade, the Soviets fell but Communism rose again in the west, the United Socialist States of America leading the allies into Berlin.
I fear whatever world you dreamt of.
Can you imagine if Italy hadn't been divided betweeen north and south? The Red Ripple never would've happened and we still be under democracy, where, as we are told by Our Glorious Immortal Leader Jeb Sanders (hallowed be thy name) in The Blue Shackles, government was ruled by a mafia syndicate with dark magic that these tribal barbarians were often named after, such as Running Electricity, an eldritch Firemancer who, it is said, took charge across nearly half of coastal America.
I wonder what life would've been like with them in charge... Sometimes, I wonder if we weren't better-
lmao
Auto-play: Not even once.
Aaah, yes.
Every italian's favourite Alternate History: Divided Italy
The industrialized north against the rural south, just like in America.
I know.
But, King of the South, if Italy was not united now you would not be the king of the whole country.
All Hail Mortebianca!
Gianfranco Miglio: May I introduce myself?
Can you stop posting shitty comments and work on your videos? Do not argue with me
“You can’t ignore a popular election in the West”
Laughs in 1975 Australian constitutional crisis
Australia is in the east
@@RealGateGuardian it’s considered western normaly because it was colonised by Britian(it was a lot more brutal than that) but britian used Australia as a prison so most Australians are of European descent
Also it’s policy’s are western
@@shrekthebest9399 learned that in the 4th grade. Your point?
i can't figure out whether australia is east or west
weast?
I hope I never stop laughing at the swastika being replaced with the RUclips logo.
The RUclips Empire
I also see no difference, like the enlightened commenter above me
Person 1:What's that symbol mean? Person 2: Idk but it feels genocidal
Of course you see no difference because RUclips is guilty of cooperate fascism the guidelines and policies are proof of it.
Have you been liveing under a rock? (no afence) you are part of the tubeism party
“South Italy becomes a mafia state”
Mexico: Bienvenido Hermano
As a mexican, I laughed
Considering the mexican flag is just the italian flag with the emblem of the eagle on a cactus on the white part it's pretty fitting.
@@bonogiamboni4830 well, since the mexican one came first, the italian Is the mexican without the eagle
@@urielantoniobarcelosavenda780 did it really come first? Fair enough then. Maybe the general theme of green, white and blue was already around, i remember reading about it in the divine comedy, but i guess the modern iteration of the flag only became a thing a short while ago.
As an another mexican, I laughed as well.
(Please get me out of Mexico)
As an italian, I must say that I know really little about the history of my country. In middle school we just skip to the establishment of democracy after the election of 1948 and hail constitution as a deity, I really didn't know that communist was this popular in Italy at the time. Also, the north/south division is something which you can't ignore in Italy, the two almost seems like two different countries
Torino though is heavily influenced by the south though due to fiat who hired basically the entire south after world war 2
@@Micfri300 true. You also forget the movie: "si ringrazia la regione Puglia per averci dato i milanesi"
Yeah maybe read something by yourself
@@cloudyostrashbin2469 Ice cold truth.
Mio fratello in cristo il partito comunista italiano è stato per decenni il più grande partito comunista di una nazione non appartenente al blocco sovietico; così tanto grosso che il partito più avanti nella storia si andò a staccare dalle sue influenze sovietiche
0:56 Aw shucks no prob-
0:58 OH GOD WHAT IS THAT?
(Actually for fan art that’s kind of adorable).
First
New profile pic confirmed
i dont know why theres so much fan art
Could be worse. Could be you in an Austro-Hungarian Uniform, complete with a Franz Joseph mustache.
Lol
Interesting angle for an alternate history video! Great stuff as always :)
I've never seen you without a mask
yay hilbert watches alternatehistory!! this makes me happy :)
Ay, you again!
Ahhhhh, A wild Dutchman. Get him, quick.
0:32 “Becoming a relatively stable NATO ally”
Keyword: Relatively
still relatively stable
Better that than abstractly stable
If this happened, North Italy would have Stalin’s brother, Mario, in charge.
WAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!
The Wario and Waluigi cliques would control the South as the Mafia.
With america putting Luigi in charge to keep things stable
@@augustuzmoon3814 Of course.
That made me laugh at 3AM in the morning and almost woke up my parents.
You are now obligated to do "What if Japan was divided after WWII"
Counter point what If Germany wasn't devided
North Japan.
Brrrrrrrr. (shivers)
It was, Britain got a tiny slice of it and America got the Rest.
Althisthub, do this!
Someone already did a video about a divided Japan but don't remember which channel
4:27 Germany causally annexes Austria
YEE HAW, THIRD TIME’S THE CHARM, BABY!
*_n o . . ._*
I also feel that the Pope and the Vatican would have a massive impact on southern politics, perhaps even power to rival the mafia.
This is especially apparent when you consider that the Vatican had declared a "crusade" on communism during the 1948 election and was responsible for convincing much of the South to vote Christian democrats
Kingdom of Two Sicilies and the Papal States maybe?
@@tompatterson1548 kaiserreich?
The Christian Democratic party who ruled Italy for 50 years was intertwined both with the Vatican and with the Mafia, long story short there wasn't that much of a difference between the Mafia and the Vatican.
@@Old_Harry7 part of the reason I find this so strange, the mafia would essentially become the politicians and likely make a lot of deals with the Americans and though their American counterparts. South Italy would have Mob rules but in general in think the mafia in Italy is effectively unified by this split through the presidency and party. Crime rates are high but in general was all the American money, bribes, deals, investments etc. Drug trafficking routes and production areas go through and exist in North Africa and agreements with the largely Maria lead Italian government would be needed to deal with most of it. In general, I think we have a well developed Italian north and south even though the south would have a massive gap between rich and poor
How would San Marino go
I get the red green split here but I can't stop thinking about the North and South like Mario and Luigi
Luigi is the best anyway
I allways thought that plumber looked like Stalin. Everything is coming together now.
I knew he was red , M for Marxist .
@@FreaKCSGOHacker Luigi is a mafia member if what Cody said about South Italy becomes true.
"You were my brother Mario, I loved you"
"Progress is actively deterred for the sake of benefiting the pockets of a few crime families"
I thought we were discussing alternate history, not real events.
*cries in Neapolitan*
Like Nepal the country?
@@cruzgomes5660 No like Naples the city.
@@lordkenten4136 oh that's my mistake 😅
Like the ice cream?
@@tompatterson1548 no, like the city that presumably invented it
"And just like the Romans, it fell to the Germans" OOF
Well, old habits
That... That sentence... Was painfully right 😂
Unfortunately
Joyfully German noises comeing from the north
@@waitwhat4760 from Teutoburg forest
North italy: actually successfull communist state
South italy: basically european mexico
Or European Colombia.
Nazis did not invade
Badoglio invited them into Italy
This coming from an Italian: Korea situation was much sadder, a country that was essentially united for 2000 years then suffered 50 years of Japanese abuse and then divided in to tanks to all their neighbors
Kind of disingenuous wording up there. Later-president Taft and count Catsula [sic] would discuss state of affairs of the two nations, which in realpolitik effects means it's a tacit understanding of the new status quo of each other, an "I say so therefore it shall be" matter. Nothing seems sinister from the modern scrutiny of the cryptic agreement that wouldn't be discovered until the 20s in some dingy library archive
The invasion was also a sad story. The UN security council has 5 permanent members: USA, UK, France, Soviet Union (Russia), and China. In the 50s, the west decided to recognize Taiwan as the representative of China. In which China and USSR boycotted the new UNSC in solidarity. The UNSC quickly passed legislation to intervene in Korea and reason the soldiers from the south marched under the UN flag
You could say it's closer to 500 years since things really started to go south after the Japanese invasions of the 1500s. But they do say Koreans and Italians share much in common (although I've also heard us being compared to the Irish and Polish in Europe as well)
@@jxz107 what about Germans? Nordpolitik is a Korean adaptation of Östpolitik
@@ffnovice7 but that's more of one policy, although it is true we modeled Nordpolitik off of Ostpolitik I think we are very different (although we both seem to like fermented cabbage)
Emilia-Romagna and Tuscany: I see this as an absolute win
add Milan, Turin, and Genoa to the mixture
No we Tuscans are firm promoters of the unification. ( mainly because we became the favored group culturally)
@@Boretheory lo so, lo dicevo come scherzo
Viva San Marco intensifies from the Adriatic
No dhe bimbi, come la vedete Livorno come capitale del nord Italia ? XD
Da è la cosa più cursed che abbia mai visto XD
I have a feeling South Italy would probably see a lot of investment to make it modern and industrial. The US would probably sink a bunch of cash into it to at the very least prop it up. Couple that with a focus on shipping in the south. Resources from Africa and the Middle East flowing into factories and refineries in southern Italy being shipped out across the Mediterranean and beyond.
The Mafia would have made useless every investment, and without a land connection with the European Community, industry would have not developed much in Southern Italy.
A Greece like situation would be the most probable outcome.
@@adrianzanoli I know the comment is from months ago however I disagree. Currently in Italy in the regions with more mafia intensity you find northern regions that are almost practically the same as those of the south, indeed thanks to people like Falcone it has been shown that it was several entrepreneurs from the north who financed the mafia, so if today you invest in north despite the mafia intensity I don't understand why it shouldn't be done in the south, it's just a pathetic excuse for me, obviously the mafia problem must be solved absolutely.
@@adrianzanoli I disagree as well, land connections have not been essential for commerce for thousands of years, and its strategic position in the middle of the mediterranean would have made a southern Italian state a regional power thanks to it being a necessary stop gap for oil refinement, search up Enrico Mattei and ENI for more information about that.
Also if the Marshall plan went straight to the south the USA would've wanted to destroy the mafia at all costs in order to make capitalism and democracy work in a place such as the south and probably restore the Bourbon monarchy in the process as neo-bourbonists were about 70% in favour of a constitutional monarchy.
Italian Mafia in South italy in the alternate universe: I love democracy.
They love the republic.
Yea but they would prefer communism
they are inside public administration in modern Italy and whit a state that controls production it would be a paradise for the mafia
@@lorenz4787 Except the thing is, even the DC in cold war-era Italy was quite statist and keynesian economically, and, with the mafia essentially having the DC (which would be the South's dominant party) in its back pocket, they may like it even more. Besides, that way, no angry northener comes down south to try to remove corruption.
@@leninbilalexander6754 you can't say how the thing will go, if the DC will win at south or not.
For example If you go to see the monarchy referendum you will see that the south preferred monarchy, and i can immagine a marriage between a boss' doughter and the Prince.
Anyway, i and you can't say how it will go, for example, no one, and this video too don't consider: The gladio force, The Propaganda 2, the "golpe Borghese" and so many other things about the Italy of that time
@@lorenz4787 True. In the end, we can just speculate.
"There were plans to divide Japan."
For some reason, my brain immediately went to "Ainu Ethnic State Hokkaido", and I'm not entirely sure why.
The Lord of the Japan: the return of the Daymios
Because golden kamui
There is an anime movie called The Place Promised in Our Early Days set in the late 90s Japan where the Soviet Union (which hasn't dissolved) owned Hokkaido and the US owned everything south of there.
@@mr.notsonice Great show.
The Ainu were forcefully assimilated into Japanese culture once the Tokugawa shogunate collapsed through cultural genocide. There would never be a free Ainu Hokkaido in any alternate history scenario.
“Moderate centrist party.”
*shows grill daddy*
The party just wants to GRILL for god's sake
As an italian, this video makes me die inside. italy is already culturally divided between north and south, If each one was it's own country, the divide would be irreparable
Even though the cultural division would be much worse in this timeline, the economic divisions would be a lot less so though (at least imo). No way the US can establish a western european splinter state to resist the communist north and then just let it deteriorate into a poor mafia state. They'd poor just as much money into it as they did west germany (I think Italy didn't end up getting any of the marshal plan $ in our timeline)
Edit: They definitely got marshal plan money, although in this timeline it would be all going into the south instead of being split between the north and south.
@@RaidsEpicly Italy got a lot of Marshal plan money. Because if the Christian Democrats didn't turn the economy around fast the communist could have actually won the elections.
@@Mameoth whoops, my bad. I read that the PCI rejected the marshal plan funds and thought it said that all of Italy did, embarrassing slip up for me.
I originally read it as “cullinarly”… and for some reason this made sense
@@RaidsEpiclyperfect way to give money to the mafia and to let them drain the US Marshall plan.
"Relatively stable" Well, that's really fucking generous.
Atleast the Peoples Republic of Northern Italy works and isn’t a anarchic failed state like The Godfatheroom of Southern Italy
@@Francisco-oz8yb chill mr commie, this is alt history, not reality
@@florpyjohnson9531 i mean he's right tho. I'd take a slowly liberalizing communist state over the corrupt unstable mafia state of the south any day. and my family is from southern fuckin Italy, we're supposed to hate the north
@@Jack-sq6xb everyone from poor countries say that the rich ones are snobbish but at the end of the day everyone wanna move to a rich and hood living country
@@Jack-sq6xb I suppose you’re right, but there are other countries than socialist Italy and mafia Italy in that timeline anyway.
“Relatively stable”…. *Operation Gladio intensifies*
Luigi: mario, wheres-a my coins?
Mario: Its-a OUR coins now *sends Luigi to gulag*
Luigi is a mafia though, since green is south.
@@mohdnajib715 even more reason to send that criminal to the gulag
So that's why mario is red and looks like Stalin🤔 makes sense now
Your Princess She's in another Gulag.
@@sbevexlr848 mario is stalin confirmed
Southern Italy could theoretically become Russia.
A "democracy" with an president and the Mafia being some kind of oligarchy
but without oil and gas.
@@090giver090 - Olive oil and bread is more valuable anyway
@@lonelychameleon3595 Fax!
@@090giver090 there is actually oil in southern italy, not as much as in romania so to say but there is a decent oil deposit under basilicata
Well... Russia isn't even a democracy tbh, but rather a hybrid state so
I am happy that RUclipsrs who put sponsors at the end of the video exist.
To be fair in the referendum on the monarchy in 1946 there was a north south devide between the (largely) pro-monarchy south and the republican north. This was before the point of diveregnce mentioned but if the split happened maybe the monarchy could come back too.
countryball and satw: we popular
mussolini still has grandkids to this day, they still take over italy and make it fascist?
@@InugamiTheHound maybe Mussolini kids make accords with the mafia states turning southern Italy into a mafia influenced monarchist state
Unlikely considering the Allies weren’t in favour of keeping the monarchy and the Christian Democrats were staunchly republican too.
For many that ship had already sailed and there was no point going back, the National Monarchist Party (PNM) won only ~2.8% of the vote in ‘48, don’t think things would change much even in a split Italy scenario.
As a geography nerd I know of a city in Russia called Togliatti, but I never investigated the background of such a markedly non Russian name.
Indeed, Palmiro Togliatti was exiled by Mussolini and lived many years in Russia, so much so Stalin named Togliattigrad after him.
I had much the same thing with operation Bagration.
Also Togliatti is a place where VAZ cars (the licensed copy of Fiat) were being produced so as the machinery and blueprints were bought from Italy we named the city after the main Italian communist.
Togliattigrad was built around a factory for licensed production of FIAT cars.
@@M.M.83-U Of course, the Fiat model produced there - the 124 - was developed in the '60s along with the smaller front-drive 127 and 128 in order to sharpen Fiat's competitiveness in what would soon become a (west) European single market. Fiat had a near-monopoly in Italy, all of a sudden Innocenti's license-built Minis and Opel Kadetts shipped from Germany became a common sight on the streets of Rome...
I love that sometimes the Italian flag's green falls into green screen logic and becomes transparent just like Felice Caccamo's tie
But Cody, How would we know which Italy to make WW2 jokes about?
South Italy, they surrendered
Both because why not
@@erosravasio3326 ah yes, the famous south italians Badoglio and Vittorio Emanuele
@@osthupprn4810 no the same southern Sicilian who made the allies conquer the region almost without fighting
@@erosravasio3326 "Sicilians, change sides since Punic Wars"
"I think both sides would just let things be"
As an italian I want to ask, have you ever met an italian before? haha
Let's be honest if Italy was devided in 1948 they would've been happy like
"HAHAH, Guarda I polentoni adesso sono sporchi communisti!"
"HAHAHHAH, Guarda I terroni!"
Hahaha, well have you ever met an Italian in Italy? Italian identity is only important abroad and in football, otherwise regional identity is far more important, and there's a lot of differences between the north and the south, and different dialects and languages.
@@antiochus87 Relatively so. Italian regional identities are yes different but not incompatibles, most geographically italian and culturally italophone regions look *towards* the peninsula and hardly to concrete independent realities, not that they have to as like a fifth of Italy is under the so-called *special status* , basically semi-autonomy.
@@user-qc5sn3uy3l You're correct to an extent and I exaggerate a little for emphasis but to look to the peninsula kind of implies you're outside it, hence I said abroad.
In general everyday life the regions or cities are more significant culturally for a lot of people. This is kind of engrained culturally but also by economics where there is a clear divide between the more prosperous north and poorer south. Also depending on the region the dialects are more alive and well, and even quite a lot of elderly people only speak dialect exclusively.
Of course this isn't independent realities as you said but when combined with the historic (albeit weak) independence movements in the the north and the ongoing political and economic crises that lead to lots of young people to migrate abroad for work, it's possible to imagine in the not-so-distant future these leading to some massive reorganization in Italy. And that's not even mentioning the regions with special status.
Italy has a lot of issues that the political class seem completely unable and unwilling to address, so some sort of change is needed otherwise Italy will continue to stagnate.
I lived in Milan for years and still have lots of friends there, and I've travelled widely throughout the country.
@@antiochus87 I see your point, very valid. I am questioning though to what an extent that "reorganization" will lead to major restructure of Italy politically. Sure, elderly people speak their regional dialect more closely and youths generally do too to a smaller degree. And whilst regional identity *is* important sometimes when distinctly juxtaposed *to* Italy (looking at you, islands) it hardly goes in the way of the unitarian project. Especially since most often than not Northern, Southern and Central economies are closely linked as to benefit from a whole peninsula worth of customers, although not often with law-abiding practicies in mind, sadly. Plus the whole fact that Italy is a unitarian republic and not a confederacy has kind of slammed some good-old State into the cogs of basically every region, tying them all up into the republic, at the time monarchy, that it is today
"Southern Italy would become a corrupt failed state in many ways with a level of bribery and corruption we'd see in a failing south american dictatorship"
Well, that still exist in actuality and is very painful to see the reality for us in the eyes of alternate history for others
"Togliatti would not be like Stalin and Mao, his leadership in the party was competent" lmao
Oneslty the PCI was competent (at least where i live)
Guy was a massive bastard but he was competent
Yeah until he ran away to Russia. Didn’t they greet him by naming a city after him?
@@redcoat4348 where did you find that he “ran way to Russia”, it literally says he went there for Vacation in Yalta
@@redcoat4348
I'm pretty sure he was exiled by Mussolini
Southern Italy after WW2 would have probably shifted towards a monarchy as most of the south supported that ideology in those years and mafia would be a powerful entity within the nation, but it would probably merge into the political and economic landscape, becoming a sort of new class in society, not becoming a mafia-state
I'm imagining a soft coup that ends with the restored Italian monarchy ennobling the mafia dons.
The other thing is that the US poured so much money into the marshal plan and especially west germany because they needed it to become a success story of their ideology. It's hard for me to imagine them doing that in West Germany and then saying "ehh southern italy can be poor that's not our problem". Especially when the democratically elected government of north italy was thriving at the same time
@@RaidsEpicly yeah, it just seems like free soviet propaganda for the US to just leave it alone. If they care so much about Vietnam a European state would definitely by a priority
an constitutional monarchy with an Mafia puppet Party maybe?
@@grandpa171 maybe a Monarchy has a mafia puppet. Umberto has proven to be good at following orders
Honestly, I think this has one of the happier endings than the other ones, though maybe that’s because I just watched the one on if Germany was split differently
South Italy really be a Gangsta's Paradise
ruclips.net/video/fPO76Jlnz6c/видео.html
fr tho
North Italy: Commie Paradise
South Italy: Mafia Kleptocracy
Can't believe he took examples from current history and called it alt history.
@@greenoftreeblackofblue6625 C'mon let's be honest, north italy is Liberal Paradise, South Italy is a Mafia Kleptocracy, big difference.
OP is a commie confirmed
What I got from this video is that NI would be a somewhat stable and functional state, but not a paradise.
@@Fuzato15 twas a joke.
That scenario would have been interesting to see play out in reality And I have to agree with you that the debate about Socialism and leftist politics certainly would be taking on a more nuanced town today .
The GOP would have been screwed
US would be more progressive like Scandinavia
As thankfully already is the case in some parts of Europe, I might add.
*points on North Italy* see that? Their x and y policies work. Let's adopt them and make capitalism morally right
@@pandepanda31
If more Socialist/Communist parties adopts North Italy's policies then the US would be forced to spend more money on building up and getting rid of corruption in capitalist nations
"And so like Rome it fell to the Germans" Jeez that was savage
Like the Modern day Germans?
It’s kinda a joke… but not 100% false
Barbaric, even
@@Boretheory ?
Oh was it the Germans? I thought Germanics were a mixed people of what consists of modern day Belgium, Poland, Germany, Netherlands, Austria, Lithuania, etc.
The second that Cody brought up the Mafia, I instantly thought "ok so when does Diavolo factor into this". And lo and behold, 12:00 gives us Primo Mafioso Giorno Giovanna.
At least the addiction rate in South Italy will be 0
@@soonlytaing1708 Well drugs wasn’t a problem for the Gangstars, it was that it was sold to kids.
@@matheussandbakk9959 yeah, but my point still stands
@@soonlytaing1708 Well yeah, just wanted to point it out. Basically Giorno and the others didn’t give a damn if adult did irresponsible things cause had the power to change their situation, but kids, mostly don’t feel they have choice. They do stupid things that they really can’t be held as responsible for as adults
Primo Mafioso is Southern Italian for Prime Minister.
North Italy: the paradise all bread tubers swear is real.
South Italy: GTA 6: Golden Wind.
To be honest
This is an alternate history I'd actually like to see myself, even if it's just being able to read the Wikipedia articles about them from this alternate timeline
I'd love to see how it'd change a lot of the political topics of conflict today, or if it'd have enough of a butterfly effect that it'd change everything about today
In this alterate universe, i wouldn't have moved to Belgium, but, i would have moved to Bologna or something, living the best time of my life
For one, JJBA Part 5 would have less scenes at Venice and would focus more on what was former South Italy, buuut we'd still have the funni Giorno theme as a meme.
Something I find iffy about it is just the fact that the US doesen't help the south industralize, like its an american ally, its prosperity would benefit the US greatly
@@memer3548 yes because all US allies are all prosperous
@@durdlurd6131 compared to southern Italy, yeah
I thought of a weird alternate history: the USSR emulated China in reforms and stopped threatening Europe. Would it become sort of like the factory of Europe.?
No! They tried to do it in our timeline by copying “special economic zones” but it failed for multiple reasons, firstly by the time Gorbachev came to power it was largely too late, also Deng Xiaoping was a war hero who could cut the military budget without receiving a coup like Gorbachev did, also the nomenklatura had gone from a class in itself to a class for itself and they weren’t prepared to lose control over the means of production to businessmen so they resisted reform at every turn. (Sorry I realized this isn’t what you wanted)
probably stalin didn't get the government of USSR
What if a Time-traveler gave Korean War tech to Soviets in 1917?
What if a Time-traveler Industrialized Kievan Rus in 867?
One possibility is northern Italy does this but western/democratic Europe has embargoes and sanctions against northern Italy so northern Italy would only be able to sell their goods to the Arab world, Africa, the Muslim world, South America and Asia. But in all those areas would be restricted by embargoes and sanctions and trade with newly independent nations as they threw off western colonial powers.
0:57
I didn't expect to see my artwork in one of your videos but I feel honored! Thank You!
I want to see more of these.
(Don't ask me why)
"We all know what the US would do"
Oh lawd he comin'
Yeah, North Italy would most likely be invaded by nato forces just like Serbia
gotta love how america talks about democracy and yet they violate the ideas of democracy.
Please do: what if Mexico accepted the Zimmerman Telegram
American gets some new states most likely.
@@gimzod76 yeah but I think it will be pretty interesting how the war will occur
Mexico will do nothing as they just went through a bloody civil war and in no shape to wage any war especially against a country as powerful as the United States and the leaders in Mexico knows it. It’s better for them to stabilize the country and economy first before fighting any war.
@Abraham Caudillo yes but germany will have time to attack europe while america is busy with mexico
He already did it ruclips.net/video/it_ogiiQIA0/видео.html
Another scenario that I think may be (slightly) more plausible is if, following the Institutional referendum of 1946 (Republic v. Monarchy), which ended in a very close vote- the Republican victory that was declared being not at all secure, and the King even trying to start a Monarchist military coup,- instead of being dissuaded to coup the Republican government, the King does start a coup, but rapid UN intervention imposes a ceasefire in Italy, with a Republican North and a Monarchist South. The North, as would be expected, votes the Socialists/Communists into power, whilst the South stays a Nato ally (even if not necessarily a Democratic one), and we go from there.
That is plausible. Most of us northeners hated the king for abbandoning his people
this is one of the more interesting scenarios to think about, simply cus of how the conditions of the split was diferent from the other communist nations
unlike Germany where most of the industry was lokated in the west, Korea where the north was compleatly Destroyed during the korean war or the warsaw pact which was poor even before ww2, a Communist country that had the advantage from the start, it would be facinating how that might play out
North Korea was far richer than the South before the war, and even after the split, it wasn't destruction but purely their communist regime that achieved impoverishing the country.
Communist states weren't poor and got poorer compared to capitalist states, because of misfortune, it was purely due to the communist economic policies and their isolationist stance.
North Italy would have been different because it would have been a democratically elected socialist/communist party, which would have been surrounded by the west, far from the SU (so no genocide, total authoritarianism, oppression) and wouldn't have been a communist puppet state, so their economic policies would have focused more on worker's right and social services, not destroying companies, economy and capitalism.
It would have resembled more of a modern socialist Nordic country, than a generic communist government, which knows only one thing, people should be murdered, impoverished and oppressed, because that is the only way such an unrealistic economical and government system could work for a time. Moreover, it would have traded with the west most likely, and would have befriended them soon and split away from the SU.
@@fenrirr22 lmao
@@fenrirr22 North Italy would've probably been a social republic influenced by both the USSR and more libertarian socialist ideologies. A democratic dictatorship of the proletariat, with a cooperative economy, nationalized industry and economic planning.
Not an ideal communist utopia, but a democratic socialist state much further left than the Nordic Socdems.
North Korea had the advantage though. For a long time they were better off than South Korea. And then look how it went lol
@@LordVader1094 during the war the US droped 635000tons on bombs on the north during the war, more than they droped during the entire pacific theatre of ww2 which Destroyed over 80% of all buildings and almost all towns and cities, if anything you pointing out that they where beter off than the south is an admission that the economic model of the north was superior to the souths.
Ontop of that, North Korea lost its largest trading partner and ally in the soviet union after its abolishment and nearly all its other trading partners, leaving prety much only China left, while sanctions from the US and UN have been increasing in sevarity and amount for years
ignoring these factors is nothing but dishonest
Well for one thing, Super Mario Bros might actually be about a working class hero trying to rescue a helpless woman from an autocratic monarchy that denies rights to the labor class.
And then Mario becomes evil and starts making the turtles clean the sewers.
That's a beautiful plot
11:00 green screen
Very cool what if. Speaking from what I know, my Grandfather (RIP), from the South, hated the facist government and the War (along with most of the South) but was drafted and had to fight in Greece. He did his tours then came back home. He volunteered for the new army to help retake the country with the Allies. Became a German POW, which, it turns out, was kinda horrible. But he made it through and eventually saw the birth of his mediocre Grandson. Plus he learned to speak a bit of Greek and German (and English, obviously, when he immigrated), he was cool dude, miss him.
My dads dad was a communist member meanwhile my mums mum dad was an elite mussolini solider 🤣🤣🤣
P.s my family is from foggia a city that is definitely the only right leaning city in the south.
My Great-grandpa was a soldier of the fascist Italy, he fought in the french border out of free will and then in the 1943 he became a partisan in Piedmont
“What if we lived in the Harrison Bergeron dystopia”
@Abraham Caudillo true the reublican party is in this way! lets hope they dont win.
If things keep going the way they are, we will soon find that out by first-hand experience.
We're already headed that way
The three state Italy is honestly the most likely if not the most interestingly cursed. Fantastic video!
What would happen to South Tyrol in this timeline? I remember reading somewhere that it was not given back to Austria after WW2 because there was fears that Italy would turn communist if it happened.
Asa South Tyrolian i can assure you that if we had the choice, we woulve been part pf Austria. Since North Italy is communist, i dint see any choice and we would be probably Italianized like under Mussolini
Austria was not a communist country, so I doubt that South Tyrol would be given back. Things would be much more interesting on the Yugoslavian border though.
I would speculate that a communist northern Italy would induce the "Alpine Fortress" scenario which the Allies feared the Reich would pull in its final days. It had already experienced Italianization under Mussolini, enjoyed a short relief under German occupation (to the point where we could argue it was liberated by the Reich) and absolutely dreaded falling back under Italian governance if the Partisans were to be involved.
In this timeline, South Tyrol witnesses a nascent Alpine insurgency begin, with the Western occupation zones in Austria (and even those in Germany, contiguous with them) permitting ex-Wehrmacht and even ex-SS personnel to filter down into South Tyrol. It becomes an Austrian unification struggle.
@@chucknorrismlg425 Liebe grüße aus Österreich
@@chucknorrismlg425 to say this you must know nothing about Italian communism. To compare it to fascism it's nonsense
What if King Bach never pulled out the Comically Large Spoon?
He would eat less, die faster and cause turmoil in the country
Brazil would be a super power
Comedy would be dead.
Payday 2 wouldn’t be as widely accepted
USA wouldn't have invaded Iraq
I could see a thin demilitarized zone run by the papal state.
And the Swiss Guard stationed along the border with halberds and 16th century armour
@@Ballin4Vengeance yeah but the halberds actually have guns inside them like the custodes spears in 40k.
I can't see the US letting such an unstable south Italy in Europe, it would show that capitalism does not work, and they don't want to show that, so they would most likely send financial help and attempt to industrialise the south. I don't know if they would succeed, but I suspect that Sicily would be much better off that it is today, being rather industrialised and with lots of big cities
true this scenario outcome is bullshit
@SirSnufflelots this is Channel generally seems to worsen a bit
He also forgot that communism never works.
Inca Empire, Uruguay and Scandinavia say hello
@SirSnufflelots what are you talking about?!! the only splitted state in Europe was Germany and clearly the Western part was richer and more industralized than the Eastern one. Are seriously suggesting that countries like UK, France and Netherlands were poorer and less affected by war than Poland, Hungary or Romania?! On top of that consider that the URSS was poorer than the USA before the war and it got 30 million deaths plus most of its industralized regions occupied and destroyed. There is no way you can claim the communist countries started the cold war on an higher position! Stalinist version of communist has proved to be the best option for poor and/or undevelloped countries that need a fast growth, but it comes with many drawbacks such stagnation and inefficiency once the growth stops.
_"It's free real estate."_ - Goths (probably)
Alternate History Hub: dividing a country is a last resort when they don’t surrender
*sad Korea noises*
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Korea divided itself also the country is still technically at war; the Korean War never actually ended.
@@92HazelMocha Korea was never meant to be divided
@@TrashMammal2002 Ironically, everyone *but* Korea wanted them to stay united.
@@92HazelMocha That's actually false, there were several forces among Korean independence activists at the time and the most popular were the centrists who adopted both leftist (socialist) and rightist (nationalist, at the time) elements. Unfortunately they were only popular among the Korean public and the Soviets/Americans ignored them in favor of pro-US/USSR puppets who pursued their own elections, starting with the North. So to say Korea divided itself is rather misleading.
@@morningwoody4514 That's actually false, there were several forces among Korean independence activists at the time and the most popular were the centrists who adopted both leftist (socialist) and rightist (nationalist, at the time) elements. Unfortunately they were only popular among the Korean public and the Soviets/Americans ignored them in favor of pro-US/USSR puppets who pursued their own elections, starting with the North. So to say Korea divided itself is rather misleading.
Post WW2 Europe: "We plege to not have another war in Europe"
Putin 2022: "Hold my Vodka"
That has almost nothing to do with this video. Not the place to be discussing that situation.
@@qymaen-jai-sheelalPlus there were the Yugoslav Wars, so post-1945 war in Europe isn't even new.
idea: what if Gregory Zhukov took power after Stalin died instead of Khrushchev?
That would actually be kind of interesting
@@wazzupheyya9677 indeed it would be
Early detente in the 50s-60s. Eisenhower and Zhukov were pals, after all.
EDIT: I assume Beria is purged here as well, and who would head the altKGB here?
Of course, Mao Zedong will still brand the Soviets as "revisionists". So a more definite Sino-Soviet split? But Americans are more friendly with the Soviets instead of the Chinese
Zhukov was the mad lad who asked the americans to invent pepsi crystal, right?
@@bonogiamboni4830 Yes. So he can drink like its vodka and get away with it
13:06 that flag on the right is actually the Federal Service Flag of (West) Germany.
1:39 that's not "ridding itself of fascism", that was the Savoy emblem which had been on the flag since 1860 and remained on it until the birth of the Republic in 1946. Nothing to do with fascism. If anything, a clearly fascist flag was the RSI battle flag which featured an eagle on a fasce over the Italian flag.
AHH: What if Italy was divided?
Hetalia Fans: *I am 4 parallel universes ahead of you*
Oof my past is coming back at me
🇫🇷 = Aosta Valley, Piedmont (+Province of Pavia), Liguria, Emilia-Romagna, West Milan and Sardinia (because it was between Corsica and Tunisia, at those times a French colony)
🇷🇺 (Soviet Union) = Lombardy (and East Milan), Veneto, Trentino and Friuli
🇦🇹 = South Tyrol
🇷🇸 (Yugoslavia) = Istria and Trieste, Gorizia and Fiume provinces
🇬🇧 / 🇺🇸 = The rest of the country
I love this XD
Can you do a video on centered on the question, “What if Spain didn’t have a civil war before WW2” ?
Probably would be almost the same. They would most likely stay neutral in WW2 and if they did join it would be on the allied side (Franco and the fascists only came into power from the civil war that in this alt history didn't happen). Overall it would probably be almost similar as today.
@@Syn_1 I dont think Spain could have stayed neutral. It would have a lot of pressure from the allies for them to be able to invade France from it, Germany would want to avoid that possible invasion of France invading Spain first, also Spain was very left leaning and the nazis hated everything approaching communism, so they would have an ideological reason to invade. And the icing on the cake is that Italy under Benito kinda wanted to restore the roman empire and probably would want territory from it. I could perfectly imagine the invasion of Greece being replaced with the invasion of Spain. And my prediction would be that it would be kinda similar to the napoleonic wars with lots of initial success for the axis turning into a slow, painful crawl of a war. Alternative, maybe Germany just funds and incites the right leaning parts of the country and the Civil War starts during WW2 and kinda fuses with it, ending this time with Franco's defeat thanks to heavy allied help.
@@Mundaling you may be right on Spain not being able to stay neutral (although it could be possible). If Spain did get involved it would probably be right after the fall of France where the allied would be desperate to try and get back in and beat the Germans. Before the civil war the Spanish army wasn't well trained and organized so Germany probably wouldn't have a hard time beating them. This would however mean more men needed to garrison Spain that could be fighting Russia probably leading to an earlier (although not to far from real life) end of ww2.
Couldn't stop thinking about _Homage to Catalonia_ (I just wanted to, mention that book, that is all)
@@Mundaling I'm Spaniard and I agree with your scenarios and even you can combine them. A German backed coup d'état ending in a manpower drain in the Axis due to backed plotters inability to stay in power. And to put the icing in the cake Ramón Franco (brother of the other-one) commanding long hauls flies all the war and being frenemy of Doolittle.
Edit:spelling.
This scenario would honestly make a good movie. Especially the idea of a South Italy-mafia state.
Northern Italy: Military, industry, overall better.
Southern Italy: *pizza*
You know what. Maybe Southern Italy wasn’t so bad if they had pizza.
Southern Italy already sounds better😳
Mafia pizza
Northern Italy: "PASTA!" (anime noises)
But northern Italy has spaghetti
"The path to paradise begins in hell"
- Dante Alighieri
North Italy: Eyyy Tony how about you share that spaghetti?!
South Italy: Eyyy Tony the Pope just made me spaghetti!!!
Wait a minute. You're not to discuss how Northern Italy will deal with South Italy's mafia issues. As far as I know, people from the North would try not to reunificate if the South is far more problematic and poorer than them.
Kill the mafia with assistance of other nations
I mean that could happen unless the Northern Italians wanted the "revolution" to spread across Europe
I doubt the calls for reunification would Just stop because of that, the North would start a War against the Mafia and After the fall of the Soviets the West would have no reason to support the mafia-controlled South. The way more powerful North would destroy the mafias, getting help from the oppressed southerners, and rebuild the South. While the destroyed South would be a setback, the destruction of the Mafia would make It lot more valuable and developable without gangsters constantly destroying any progress.
While the North thinks badly of the poorer South, they would still want to reunite Italy
@@darknus522
The Mafia is still a bitch to deal with today. Fake Olive oil (which can trigger allergies)
Strange to imagine a world where a communist state might've actually done well and served as a moderating example between extremes. I want that timeline.
by the 1990s North Italy may become a state communst in name only, like Vietnam and China.
Honestly, a communist state that actually did somewhat well and didn't end up kinda crappy like the rest of them would be really interesting to see, and in theory while it likely would have milded out a lot by the turn of the millennia it could have served as a moderating example between the ideology wars we see today
Maybe we wouldn't be living in a world where the American right calls literally any social or financial policy that would at all benifit the lower classes "communism" (and thus obviously bad) and makes things harder for everyone who wants those changes to get them in a world where North Italy existed as described here
maybe Mccarthyism wouldn't be so prevelant. god I wish.
@@dustinm2717 Why do you think it would matter? Most countries in the EU have the same socialist policies, that you are talking about, there isn't anything communist in that, everybody knows this, the USA and its citizens still don't give a shit about that. Why would it matter, that there would be a state only in name communist,with the same policies as the European countries have now?
@@fenrirr22 perhaps that's true, perhaps I am too optimistic about the stubborn ignorance of the American right wing being able to listen regardless
But I think what I'd consider different is that theoretically an actual Democratic Socialist 'North Italy' would be a lot harder to ignore as it wouldn't be as lowkey about it as other European nations today are having it as part of it's very identity especially if it doesn't fail (i notice a lot of Americans forget or don't seem to realise that Europe has a fair few of these things and is doing just fine actually, because they stay more lowkey about it, a literal communist country doing well wouldn't be as easy to ignore), and it'd be a lot harder to use "communism" to mean _"social programs i irrationally think are bad"_ if there were to exist an actual somewhat successful and democratically elected example of a 'communist' country
But of course all of this assumes it'd actually go somewhat well and doesn't just turn into a mess like how so many Soviet adjacent authoritarian regimes did, in which case it'd only make the sentiment worse
As an italian I can say that this is a very possible alternative timeline but i don't think any reunification would be possible because the nation split after a popular vote, not forced like germany and I don't that the north would have been ok with reuniting with the whole mafia/right parties situation in the south
The Pope: “Well that was a hectic time, huh my fellow Cath-“
*Northern Communist Italy is Established*
The Pope: “MAMMA MIA”
I don't think Italy would've unified again, Not with the growing divide, and, as another commenter pointed Out, the south also being monarchist. The two would simply have drifted apart.
Untill maybe the south does a Big collapse and the North Just annexes it.
Most likely, the North would swoop in as soon as any Major crisis happened in the South, as unlike Korea, theres no global superpower stopping the two halves from a reunification war
@@darknus522 and the north isn’t a hermit state
"progress is actively deterred for the sake of benefiting a few crime families"
Are we talking about a theoretical Southern Italy or the actual United States?
He is talking about putin and his ogligarchs
@@Real_Mambo that too
Just replace "crime families" with "*self made* rich families" and you can apply that to every capitalist country. And in the USA it's fully controlled by them.
North italy directly after the south signed the re-unification treaty:"What the fucking hell happend to this place?"
Germany: so it looks like we're losing ww2 guys
Italy: *change team*
Continue to say it until it becomes true.
In Italy 's defence, and as stated in the video, Italy just surrended, the only reason they ended up fighting the germans was cuz the latters invaded the peninsula. There was no plan to just switch side.
@@Finish303 you have no understanding of ww2 at all, America was already preparing to join pearl harbour was just a very convenient justification, the axis were certainly not winning in North Africa because they just simply couldn't get the supplies there due to the royal navy, Russia was never close to falling and German submarines weren't effective enough to starve Britain, and by that time Britain already had effective anti sub measures anyway
@@Finish303 yeah you definitely don't understand the political situation of ww2
and you are further misunderstanding what I am saying, I never said that the USA joined for any good altruistic reasons but they were very obviously going to join the war, THAT IS LITERALLY THE REASON JAPAN ATTACKED PEARL HARBOUR, they saw that the USA joining the war was soon to happen and tried to cripple the American Pacific fleet to make it easier to fight the Americans off. The main thing that I was debating was the fact that you acted like America joining the war instantly turned it around and that without them it never would have been won which is far from the truth, north Africa already started to be won, Japan had been stopped dead in their tracks by china and Britain, Britain had won the battle of Britain and largely scattered the German Luftwaffe and the Soviets were at their worst point but with or without American lend lease the Soviets were going to turn Barbarossa around German logistics were just too bad and they didn't have the army to compete with the Soviets.
Motto of North Italy: “Lavoratori del mondo, unitevi!”
Motto of South Italy: “È così che funziona la mafia.”
Despite Italy being divided Austria still doesn't get South Tyrol.
As Italian I think it’s more than fair
Yeah after WW2 some european nations wanted italian territories: South Tyrol/Alto Adige for Austria, Valle d'Aosta for France (or half of Piedmont) and Friuli Venezia Giulia for Yugoslavia. I think that the US would have allowed the annexation of these territories to punish the Italian communists's decision.
There'd be an Italian version of 99 Luftballons 😳
99 palloncini
While I do agree that North Italy would be more prosperous than its southern counterpart, I really don't agree that Southern Italy's political climate would be similar to Mexico. I suspect that the NATO powers (primarily the USA I'd bet) would put a decent amount of capital into the development of the South. The West would want the Northern Italians to see the South as being prosperous as well. Otherwise it would only confirm the North's belief that communism is the solution, and that sort of thing was one of the major components of the Cold War.
The economic disparity might be like north n south korea at the beginning of cold war, with the difference of north italy becoming a lot more prosperous compared to north korea and maybe south italy wont be as prosperous as south korea, thats just my take tho
The mafia was just too strong. They would still all that capital through their political ties
Have you ever seen what happens when you put money into a corrupt state, it dissapears
That capital would be laundered i to the Mafia’s coffers
I am not quite sure. Mafia is quite endemic and with borders between North and south and the us dollari i think most of american marhall plan would have fed only local mob
Most important question: Would we still have Sergio Leone movies?
Basically Northern Italy could be a second Yugoslavia. Huh, I wonder if they'd merge into a new super-State of non-alligned socialist ideology?
During the early years, I doubt it but maybe during the 60+ maybe.
The Italian communists were more syndicalist anyway which might be more compatible with the socialist self Management system of Yugoslavia.
I highly doubt it considering what happened before and during WW2. The scale of the atrocitues is smaller, but it's almost as if east Germany unified with Poland... Very difficult to imagine before most of the people that were alive in ww2 and saw what happened are dead
Who knows, Tito had a plan to invite Bulgaria, Albanija and part of Greece into Yugoslavia as Balkan federation, a socialist super state. Since we had Trieste and bourded north Itačia, it wouldn't be impossible.
*north Italy
@@duka1461 what if the communists won in Greece.
That'll be interesting
Would interesting if they brought back the papal states as a buffer state
"The Pope? How many divisions has he got?" - Stalin
"Now that you mention it..."
Let’s just bring back the EU4 1444 start date
Interestingly the Vatican is technically a remnant of the Papal State IIRC - so if it remained it could have just been expanded a bit to cover the border. Sort of like a DMZ with priests 😁
@@harmreductionman4474 Thing is there likely would have been no need for a buffer state in this hypothetical scenario. Like Cody said, neither side wanted an armed conflict in Europe, and making a DMZ buffer state in Italy probably would have made things more awkward.
@@harmreductionman4474 Technically the Vatican City existed from 1929, so when the divergence happen it would exist, and if Rome isn't in the hands of the North at the end of the civil war, I don't see why it would end. And, possibly, in a weaker Italy with no PCi opposition, the Pope would have more power to expand. I would say that, even if informally, after the Berlin Wall's fall the Pope would control Rome and part of the region.
First time I became aware of the extreme differences between North and South Italy, was when some Italian seperatist politician, Umberto Bossi, declared 'Padanian independence' in the late 1990s.
Padania would have been the name of an independent Northern Italy.
I absolutely love questions that hardly anyone asks, because sure it may be small part of history for most people, but the stories are just as interesting as big events
Alternate kingdom of two Cicelies yes please
What would be of Trieste and North Italian-Yugoslavian relations in this scenario?
It would probably accelerate the Yugoslav split from the Soviets. Tito wanted Friuli and Trieste, and the only thing preventing him to take them were British forces. Now nobody stops him but Stalin and his diktats to leave his newest ally alone.
A functioning Italian Communist state sounds like a "threat of a good example" and would probably get the Kissinger/military coup treatment
Kissinger wouldn't be able to though
14:31 Yo did anyone notice the two red dots or glowing eyes in the top middle
13:18 uh you know this flag you put on east germany is the flag of the west german government, commonly used to depict west germany in cold war times
0:33
'Relatively Stable'
*Cough* Years of lead *Cough*
Wouldn't all the lefties in the south be like gone though. What would the p2 lodge and gladio be fighting?
Or would the proto mafia state piss so many in the south off that rural lefties pop up and the CIA/P2/Gladio have to deal with them
@@smokyondagrass2353 He was talking out Italy IOT, so I was referencing that
@@smokyondagrass2353 an Italian i suppose?
@@smokyondagrass2353 there was a pretty big left-wing presence in the center and in some southern areas, that was actively suppressed in otl for example in sicily, a lot of people that fought against the mafia were communists otl because the mafia in early post ww2 was used as a way to keep the communists in control
@@garn4579 so the southern years of lead in this alternate history would just be a citizen anti mafia campaign.