My bad the car was a Ford Excursion not an explorer! Thanks for watching, check out me other bits! ►My new EP: madebyjohn.bandcamp.com/album/retail-simulator ►Outro Song: ruclips.net/video/LJVNt_ruEJ0/видео.htmlsi=KaHhrFbCex3kJBKk ►Instagram: instagram.com/plainly.john/ ►Patreon: www.patreon.com/Plainlydifficult ►Merch: plainly-difficult.creator-spring.com ►Twitter:twitter.com/Plainly_D ►Sources: www.timesunion.com/news/article/schoharie-limo-crash-happened-could-ve-prevented-19594181.php www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/HAR2003.pdf www.timesunion.com/news/article/Breaking-NTSB-releases-dozens-of-documents-in-15516051.php www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Pages/HWY19MH001.aspx
Indeed, quite a lot bigger and more robust than an Explorer. The Excursion is based on the F-250 ¾-ton class full-size pickup truck chassis, where the Explorer of the time was more closely related to the Ranger mid-size pickup, and the Expedition (and luxury variant Navigator) between them was based on the F-150 ½-ton class full-size pickup. The Excursion platform would have had sufficient braking ability for the added weight of the stretch conversion since it was intended to carry and tow a significant amount of weight. It's also a body-on-frame construction as most American limousines traditionally were, including the ever popular Lincoln Town Car. Since the body is not a load-bearing member of the vehicle's structure, cutting and welding in a stretch section doesn't compromise the overall structure nearly as much as it would for a unibody vehicle like an Omega. The underlying frame is also far easier to reinforce for increased load carrying capacity. This is of course assuming all cuts and welds were properly done and treated for rust prevention to a similar level as the manufacturer, which rarely actually occurs.
@@waffle911 To add, had the brakes been in working condition. They're more than capable to handle the load of the conversion because the original truck/suv was designed for towing. with up to a 10,000lb capacity depending on the engine it came with.
One thing that was not mentioned here were the passengers in the limousine were a husband and wife celebrating the wife's birthday with all three of the wife's sisters, two of their husbands, and the husband's brother along with a few more pairs of couples. They had originally rented a party bus to go to a craft beer brewery so they would not be driving drunk, but the party bus had broken down, so the Prestige Limo was a last minute replacement. The parents of the four sisters recalled in a news interview having to suddenly plan four funerals, sell three houses and seven cars, deal with their daughters' student loans, and having to care for their now orphaned grandchildren.
Not surprising at all. The way the company was run, the father was probably a total narcissist. Abandoning his son to face the consequences is in line with everything else he was doing.
There is even more to the story that you missed. The limo should have been registered as a commercial vehicle, as it had more than 14 seats, 18 total. When prestige purchased the limo, they registered it with only 14 seats as a regular "van". This allowed them to get away with simpler inspections. The regular inspection process in NY is fairly simple, with the entire inspection being done in a shop, mostly focused on visual inspection for things like rust, leaks, and tires/brakes. If the limo was properly registered, it would have been required to go through a commercial vehicle inspection, which is a much more intensive and thorough process including actual stopping distance tests that the limo would almost certainly have failed. This also meant they could put the unqualified driver in the vehicle, as it was registered as something he was qualified for. They continued to load it with more than 14 people though, because they knew its capacity was 18. The fact they registered it wrong on purpose to escape restrictions shows that this was not an accident at all, but premeditated.
Not only that but it had failed the inspection but they ignored the paperwork and put it back on the road. The owner and son should’ve gotten more severe punishment. They destroyed those families.
@@Nicholas-f5 With what assets, father they need to put in an extradition order to Pakistan and wait a year or three, but still they will get nothing out of them. Son all they will get is $1 per day if he is working in the prison doing labour. Best would be the judge to have made the sentence sequential, so he serves a minimum of 30 years before being eligible for parole. Then $1000 over that as compensation for the 20 victims.
Even if they replaced the brakes and tires, they'd be for a normal Excursion, not the stretch or super-stretched version. The body chassis and wheel assemblies aren't reconfigured to prevent less capable brakes and tires from being installed. Unless an expert mechanic or automotive engineer knows to install better components, all they'd have to do is a fast swap, pass inspections, and away it goes. Even though the tires and brakes aren't capable of stopping such a heavy vehicle.
I had a limo for my wedding and it was really strange squeezing through the tight twisty cobbled streets near Stirling Castle, but our driver did a stellar job of not destroying any parked cars, pedestrians or historic buildings.
@@goosenotmaverick1156 I rode in one in 5th grade back in the 90's because we won the Pizza Hut Book Club tournament. So me and 6 other kids got to go to Pizza Hut in a limo. Granted this was in like 1997, but it wasn't great. I tried making a phone call and the phone didn't work because it was still like IMTS from the 80s or something, and it just smelled weird in there. All in all it was an experience, but not one of my top 10s. 😐
The realization of having inadequate brakes on a 13,000 lb vehicle going downhill at 100mph has to be the most anxiety inducing scenario a driver/passenger can experience. sheesh
There was a crash in Carson City Nevada a few years ago when a guy with no commercial license was paid to haul a yacht from Lake Tahoe. The highway is steep and winding with a signaled intersection at the bottom. He was towing a 44 foot, 38,000 pound boat with a regular Ford F-350, which had a maximum towing capacity of 21,000 pounds. He failed to use the runaway truck ramps and plowed into cross traffic, killing an older couple. The boat and trailer kept rolling down the highway and hit more cars. There have been multiple crashes at this intersection from trucks that can't stop but this was the worst.
@@tz138 He kept saying Explorer but I'll forgive him on the account of being in the UK where the biggest passenger cars are Land Rovers. Excursions were beasts, I had a coworker who had one with a V10. Thing got maybe 8 MPG.
In my teens I occasionally helped out at an auto repair shop swapping labor for instruction and experience. Among the vehicles I worked on were three limos; I was shocked at how haphazard and shoddy the conversions on two of them were. The exception was the limo that was owned by a funeral home...a vehicle that was never likely to see a highway or exceed 25 mph. The owner and mechanics detested working on limos, they could not ever be repaired quite right because of their frankenstein nature. The boss and the oldest mechanic advised me to never drive or use a limo, them being "accidents waiting to happen." Today's story reminded me of a fatal limousine experience that happened around ten years ago in San Mateo County, California, USA on a suspension bridge over the San Francisco Bay. It was a fire due to the conversion, and it killed IIRC five women who were part of the wedding party. Horrible stuff.
I worked for a few dealers, and I didn't see any conversion limos. But I will say the small taxi companies in my area had the worst vehicles I've ever seen safety wise.
@@CoryRwtfyt They had one customer who was also a taxi entrepreneur. The shop did service and repairs on his pair of late 70s (I think) Checker Marathons, "Tweedledum" and "Tweedledee." His examples were dreamy- he didn't cut corners and he kept the undercarriages clean, very important in Chicago due road salt. Plus Checker made dirt simple, logical cars with no vanity to them. His had the Chevy 250 cid I-6 and GM TH400 3-speed automatics; easy peasy to work on and dead reliable. I did hear horror stories from one mechanic about taxis in general, though, and how some branches cut corners wherever possible. Example: Leaking caliper? Cut the hose, run a bolt into it as a plug, secure with a hose clamp...problem solved! 😯
The couple had originally reserved an actual party bus for this outing, but it canceled on them that morning, and they ended up with this monstrosity as a last minute replacement. Conversion limos shouldn't be allowed on the road when safe, purpose-built alternatives are so readily available now.
I remember another channel that covered this said one of the teenaged passengers texted their friend just before leaving that the converted limo looked like a death trap or some other comment joking about it'd probably kill her.
The license of the driver is the least concern, if you ask me. He was allowed to drive vehicles of that size, just not transport passengers as "cargo". Not upgrading and servicing the brakes, however, is extremely negligent.
This case, and a bus crash at the school I taught at (serious injuries, but thankfully no deaths) had me kind of scratching my head at how much people talked about certain aspects. In this limo case, while the driver did have some issues himself, really, none of that contributed to the crash. This disaster seems obviously 100% a case of failed brakes due to lack of maintenance. With the bus crash at my school, it was the opposite. There was a lot made in the local news about the bus company forging maintenance records, which is bad of course. That said, the brakes didn't fail or have anything to do with the crash. The driver fell asleep and let the bus go off the road at full speed and flip over.
Agreed. If I got hired for a job that a company told me I'm qualified for, I'm not likely to question it. No one researches the law for what is most likely a minimum wage position. In cases like this, the company is still the one largely at fault
Truck drivers are required by law to do pre-trip inspections of their vehicles. If he'd done that, he'd have known not to drive it. But he probably would have done it anyway, because who wants to get fired?
Here in Canada you require a "Class 4" license, which is just basically a Class 5 or GDL with an extra Exam and Medical Test. Allows you to transport passengers up to a limit. Basically says you're fit to operate. Whenever you take a vehicle whether it's yours, a friends or a companies, you're responsible for making sure it's roadworthy. Especially if you've got the lives of others in your hands. It sounds like the driver thought something may be wrong, because he pulled over prior to the accident, maybe the brakes were feeling poor. Yet he continued on anyways and got many others killed.
You missed a lot of the chicanery in this incident. The owners had re-registered the limousine with the state as smaller than it really was, so they would fall under less strict inspection rules. York State didn’t track registration changes so they had no way to identify and investigate the discrepancy. The New York State police had several times placarded the limousine as out of service for safety violations, but the owners just scraped the stickers off and continued to use the vehicle. The police knew they were doing this, but they didn’t confiscate the vehicle, even though they had the authority to do so. The car repair shop that performed the annual vehicle safety inspections was not authorized to do so on such large vehicles, but they did it anyway. And the same shop may have billed for brake work that was not actually performed, although this is in dispute. The rear brake lines weren’t merely pinched to reduce the hydraulic flow, one of them was clamped off with a pair of vise grip pliers, and the brake caliper was seized, indicating that it hadn’t been used in months.
And wait - there's more! As others pointed out, this was a last-minute booking intended to provide safe transportation for a group of young people (many whom were related to each other) to a brewery for a birthday celebration. The driver had not anticipated working that day, but needed the work and couldn't refuse when he was called in that morning even though his wife later said that he told her he was not comfortable driving after partying the night before. The underwriters who insured the limo company declared bankruptcy, and ceased operations after the event. There were allegations that the posted speed limit for the stretch of road were excessive considering the elevation changes and curves, and therefore the New York State Department of Transportation should share some of the blame for the accident. The ultimate owner of the limo company (who fled to Pakistan and has never returned) is alleged to have been an confidential informer for the FBI who may have interfered in the investigation to protect their source. The young and inexperienced local prosecutor responsible for the investigation insisted on impounding the wrecked limo and wouldn't allow the NTSB to get access to it for several weeks after the incident. That prosecutor initially agreed to a plea deal that would have allowed the business operator to avoid a custodial sentence, but then the judge who approved that deal retired, and the judge who replaced him rejected the deal and forced the matter to go to trial. The limo company owner's son (who was the defacto operator of the business at the time of the incident) has appealed his conviction but the appeal court has not yet announced its decision. However, a few days before the appeal was to be heard, the owner contacted several local news outlets by phone from Pakistan to tell them that his son had been diagnosed with advanced lung cancer - angling for sympathy, perhaps. And the limo company had been operating out of a decrepit old motel, and several weeks after this accident, there was an additional incident in which a dead body was found in one of the guest rooms in the motel.
I know a guy who runs a service and also has an Excursion, he had the body placed on an unlengthened F650 frame. It's tall with a wide tire stance, and handles the way it was meant to.
@@DrewLSsix Big brakes don't stop you faster, they stop you longer. Brakes stop the car by converting kinetic energy into heat, which actually works quite well since kinetic energy is tiny. A car going 50 mph down the road has the same kinetic energy as 10 lbs of boiling water has thermal energy. The limiting factor is caliper heating, which causes brake fluid to boil and reduce effective pad pressure, since the fluid in the brake line stops being incompressible. Bigger brakes cool faster and have more thermal mass, but that's it. This only becomes an issue on a race track, or if you're rolling down a huge mountain without using engine brake. This crash happened because of multiple point brake system failure. The brakes themselves seemed adequate, considering how long it worked just fine.
@@Katchi_ You're partially right. Actual energy contained in 10 lbs of boiling water is MORE than the kinetic energy of F-150 barreling down the highway at 50 mph, by 25%. You may not be able to fully lock up the rotors with small brakes if you use drag racing tires and smart car brake booster on a loaded truck, so there's a scenario in which you need a bigger brake to stop faster. This scenario is also where brake size is a limiting factor. The brake turns a minuscule amount of kinetic energy into acoustic noise and frictional material ablation, not just heat alone. Overheating of rotors can become an issue outside of a race track or a mountain, if you put a blowtorch to it. But all of that amounts to a big load of pedantry with absolutely no consequence. Which is why I didn't include it to begin with.
@@Katchi_ what he was missing was so long as the brakes can physically lock up the wheels The limiting factor to stopping distance to that point is traction of the rubber to the road, almost all brake systems are more than capable of blocking up the wheels with massive amounts more weight behind the the vehicle then they are accounted for stock, he was correct the bigger issue for upgraded brake systems is stopping the brake fluid from boiling since smaller brake systems dealing with lighter loads will have less capacity to absorb and dissipate heat meaning they are more prone to break fade, but under the assumption that the brakes were not heavily used and overheated directly before that crash you could triple the amount of breaks and even tires (make it a 18 wheeler for all that matters) and it will stop in the exact same distance so long as the rubber compounds and the weight stay the same (tire contact area to the road counterintuitively does not have any effect on stopping distance, The friction coefficient is solely based on rubber compound road surface quality and vehicle weight)
Business owners in the US will make a million dollars on a piece of equipment and still refuse to spend $600 on brakes. Ive personally seen multiple $150,000+ trucks catastrophically fail because of lack of maintenance.
This is universal world wide. People operating large vehicles with revenues in the millions but they draw the line on tires and brakes else the company folds 😅
1:23 Reminds of that one Top Gear episode, where they made their own bizarre limousines. BTW, the limo in this incident was a Ford Excursion, not an Explorer.
I am a volunteer EMT with an ambulance squad that responded to this (although I wasn’t a member yet of it). I was (and still am) in the volunteer fire service a county over and in college at the time of the crash, but not in EMS yet when it happened, but went to college with a volunteer FF from Richmondville (he later moved to Cobleskill) who went to the accident with the Schoharie County Hazmat Team to help with the cleanup and body recovery. He told me he will never unsee the things he saw there during the cleanup when he went into the limo and around the Apple Barrel (the restaurant the crash happened at). The chief of my ambulance squad also went, and said similar things. It’s so weird to think an incident so close to me is being covered by channels I watch regularly. God bless everyone who responded to this horrific accident and did the best they could to save those on board.
dead bodies really arent that bad its a process that happens in life sometimes soon sometimes it takes a while aka old age but i think people that are bothered by the dead shouldnt work with the dead simply because its gonna mess up their life and family life
The state on New York has priorities. It can't go after every limousine death trap when there are so many shopkeepers with improper countertop heights or incorrect "We're Open" sign color.
@@krissteel4074Id rather they also upgrade the braking system to account for the extra weight and mass of the vehicle. There's a reason buses don't have the same brakes as a standard SUV.
@@_GntlStone_ agreed, my mini shuttle bus (no longer used in that capacity) has a GVWR of 10,500lbs, more than a ton and a half lower than that monstrosity. I guarantee it has more than double the braking power
I worked for several years as a mobile electronics installer and have worked on many limos. They were all massive fire hazards and many were in need of major servicing. Think dozens of "I know a guy" type repairs stacked on top of each other for years. I had an Escalade super strech on 22s with no power steering, but as long as the 15s in the back were bumping and the disco lights worked he didn't care
Unfortunately, that's not uncommon in the Pakistani/Muslim culture. The father would be the head of the family, and seen as the main source of wealth in the family. The son going to prison in his place would be seen as a mark of respect, and an honor, as it let the main moneymaker continue to grow the family's wealth... It's a strange viewpoint from a western point of view, but within their culture it makes sense.
I work as a bus driver, and for a few years I worked at a charter company that had a converted Ford Expedition limo. That company always worked to maintain a high standard, making sure all the drivers had the proper endorsements and medical clearance for interstate travel, as well as frequent drug testing, and kept their fleet of buses and motorcoaches in good working order. I never once felt unsafe driving any of the buses or the limo, and even when something did go pear-shaped, I never felt I was in any real danger. Just very inconvenienced, like the time a motorcoach broke down in the middle of South Dakota and I had to wait for a tow. If I had seen any of the corner cutting this company was doing, I'd have run the other way and maybe even tried to alert the DOT.
Not sure what state your licenses in but I'm from Mass and drove charter buses for about 20 years. Contacting our state DOT really didn't result in any quick inspections. It takes multiple complaints and years before the company is shut down. I also was employed by companies that stayed ahead of maintenance but I can't tell you the number of buses I ran into during down times that I wouldn't put an animal on. And the general public doesn't have our insider knowledge so they don't know who to contact to get the ball rolling. I remember hearing about this horrible accident when it happened and telling my husband (who is also a CDL bus driver) that there was something wrong with the limo and that the driver wasn't trained. Turns out my statement was the tip of the iceburg. NY state dropped the ball several times starting when it was first registered in the state to just before the accident. And they also dropped the ball on the company as well.
Companies like this one are likely not hiring the "whistle-blower" type. More like the, "you don't have a license? What a coincidence, we don't either" mutually shady people.
this was HUGE news when it happened with a massive uproar about the shady limo business as a whole. There's a lot of under-the-table limo companies that operate outside the laws and regulations and this was inevitable with the lack of real oversight and greed in the industry. And it sucks the confidence out of truly legitimate Limousine companies who operate fully licensed and maintained Limos.
My brother in law was with the Florida Highway Patrol, he knew of several troopers who purchased used limos and drove as a side job. The money was very good but they didn't drive for any limo company and the upkeep on the vehicles was sketchy. Florida used to require annual vehicle inspections but stopped doing them.
I’m 50 years old and only just now learned that limos aren’t actually manufactured as limos, but are created by Frankensteining other cars. I knew you could do that, but I thought it was just a DIY thing novelty project. Meanwhile, I live a couple blocks away from a large funeral home that has about 30 hearses. Are hearses actually made or do they take a vehicle and then modify it to be a hearse?
@@WendyDarling1974 Ford actually used to publish guidelines on how to turn some of their vehicles into limousines (length and weight limits, etc), and they used to certify vehicle modification shops that would perform the work. I don’t think Ford publishes stretch guidelines anymore because of the liability. And in any case, this vehicle far exceeded the allowable guidelines and the work was not performed by a certified shop.
Fortunately, passenger safety in a hearse is not a huge concern. 😂 (TBH, I don't know if hearses normally carry passengers apart from the deceased or not, but it's a good throwaway joke...)
I had no idea either. I have seen like four limos in my lifetime. I can imagine it's hard to get them certified as driveable in Sweden if this is how they are made
Being of a somewhat Gothic persuasion, we once almost bought an old, black stretched Volvo 740 funeral car as a fun alternative to a minivan for hauling the kids around. Knowing what I do now about stretch cars, I'm glad we didn't... plus it would have made Asda car park a bit of a challenge.
I know nothing about engineering or technological stuff, im just a random artist and prop maker but these videos are always fascinating to me lol, pushes me outa my comfort zone for lack of a better word
I am an upstate NY resident from Albany, who lives about 30 minutes from where this happened. This was such a messed up tragedy and a truly disgusting display of negligence and irresponsible actions. So damn sad and horrible
@@kuebby It's def not the law, unless someone's palm is getting greased. The laws are strict and costly for any motor vehicle but especially heavy duty and special purpose vehicles. The state does all the inspections on those vehicles. This guy actually just got that limo inspected not too long before the accident, but it wasn't by the state, it was a nationwide chain garage. I'm not saying any names but a tire or muffler place is coming to mind as doing the inspection. They're not authorized to inspect limos in NY. So he must've paid an employee to do it, or the guy wasn't trained properly. Since the limo was illegally made, the original title and registration never changed it's class. When a pass veh or light truck comes in, they scan the reg sticker in the windshield - now the NYS inspection computer is linked to the reg - which is from the original vehicle. So the dude just peeks quick at one of the brake pads, checks the outside lights, tire tread, and it has to get plugged into the veh to check emissions and whatever. If the guy didn't know he wasn't allowed to inspect limos, nothing would've red flagged from the state. On the other hand, there's never just one person working at these joints. A manager is always there. They prob have been paying people to do it for as long as they were operating it. So if it's not the law that's the prob here, I'd say it's prob the caliber of some people that have been coming here legally for decades now, to run businesses that get big tax breaks and other incentives to set up shop. Think of a family from anywhere else on earth other than the region he fled to. Now imagine this exact scenario where the father comes home without his son who is facing prosecution for the business you were in charge of. I would expect my family and anyone who sees me wherever I had fled to, to turn me in. It's despicable. So I guess you're right - it is the law. Just not the MV laws. ✌
I am a fleet mechanic for a limousine company, I have seen some shit man... our 44ft stretch hummer I had to completely re-engineer. from support structures, to power distribution, to the ac system. it was falling apart after only 8 years on this earth. insane...
For some reason, people seem to think it's cool to travel in a stretched limo, but uncool to travel in a bus that is designed for the job of carrying a lot of people. Also, the occasional appearance of the Pinto in this video was a nice touch.
@@laconicdraconic697 I saw that in another comment. Perhaps I could of worded it differently, but I was referring to people in general, not this particular trip.
@@alexjenner1108 You're good just wasn't sure if you were refering to them or in general, there was a lot of people who were blaming the victims of this case saying they deserved to die for wanting to use a Limo and allat when it really was last choice and even if they had wanted to if they are paying for a service the service has a responsibility to be safe and provide what it states.
IDK about the heart burn medication, but I'm on the other two mentioned and they don't interfere with driving at all. Heck, dude could have been drunk and it would likely have made little difference on the outcome with how poor a condition the vehicle was in.
The medications mentioned have zero effect on driving or clarity of mind. I feel slightly irked that they were mentioned because it kind of propagates a negative view of antidepressants.
I remember hearing about this, every few years I hear about it again. What's funny is I rode in a modified limousine when back in high school, thankfully it was just that once.
This is why there needs to be laws and regulations preventing shade tree mechanics from making major modifications to a vehicle without engineering reviews. Because common sense often leaves out important, and typically expensive, items like brakes in favour of coooooooool.
Common automatic transmissions are incapable of engine braking due to absence of clutch. That combined with undersized brakes makes it terrifying in a 6 ton vehicle.
Had a bus crash in NY sometime after that that was horrible even though only (I think) four people killed. Double decker bus. Driver took a wrong turn. Drove under a low bridge. Everybody on the top deck was killed. Shady fly-by-night Chinese bus company- if I remember correctly, as soon as the news hit everybody having anything to do with the company was ghost.
The fact that you can add so much weight to a vehicle without having to upgrade the brakes and do a real inspection, all while compromising the structural integrity of the frame so haphazardly is insane! I never planned to ride in a limousine, but now I'm gonna think really hard if I'm going when a friend invites me, even if the route just leads through urban traffic.
I feel this could have been mitigated through the driver's application of either the overdrive lockout (the button on the column shift of this generation of Excursions), or by attempting to downshift to use engine braking. Grenading the transmission is a better outcome that dying, I feel.
The driver probably had no idea about downshifting and grenading the tranny. Heck, most driver's on the road don't even know what the 3-2-1 mean on the PNDL.
I wonder if the witness report of the engine sounding like a jet indicate he had already put the vehicle in as low a gear as possible. I don't have the NTSB report pulled up, but it might say whether they were able to determine which gear it was in prior to the crash.
@@jonathankleinow2073 Looking at the report, they were unable to determine the gearbox's shift position, but it was unlikely the gearbox controller would have put it in 2nd. It still would have downshifted, but not low enough to provide sufficient engine braking. Still could have disabled the overdrive I feel.
Even with an automatic transmission you can downshift to slow down. It's especially useful on long slopes because the engine drag slows the vehicle down without overheating the brakes.
At those speeds, and on such an old limo, it's possible the mechanical pressure would fuck up the transmission, breaking the clutch and basically putting you into perma-neutral. Certainly worth a try though.
@@BS-ys8zn Well yeah, but you don’t know how fast it got there and what the guy was trying to do; unfortunately we have very little data on what happened inside the vehicle, no black box, just clues after the crash
On a Limo like this where is looks like they literally did nothing but add extra metal I'm not sure that would work would probably destroy everything and still make you wreck
You know, John, I just heard a different channel talking about this and i think you did a little bit better job. I still love that other channel, so I'm not going to shame them online. I just wanted you to know that the info about his CDL endorsements is really important. My husband is a truck driver who has the same endorsements that in no way give him the authority to even drive a schools bus. 🚌 That driver *knew* he was breaking the law. Great job as always, John. I send you this from a lovely 😍 day in Oregon on the West Coast of the US. See you next week.
It might sound bad that the brakes weren't upgraded, but the Ford Excursion is basically an F250 heavy duty pick-up (not an F150) with an SUV body, which is capable of towing a significant weight, so the upgraded limo, although much heavier than a stock Excursion, remained within the "train weight" capability of a stock Excursion/ F250.
All well and good for acceleration, but they didn't add any trailer brakes to cope with that extra load now did they? And they let it rust and go unmaintained to a degree that'd fail safety inspection, and purposefully dodged certification requirements that'd have enforced safety inspection. (Also super weird that there's no safety inspection for passenger cars like there is in the rest of the civilized world, but the US has a lot of that kind of "freedom" to endanger others going on.)
The brakes would have been sufficient (barely) if they were in good repair, but they weren’t. One of the brake lines was clamped off with a vise-grip pliers, the rear brakes basically didn’t function at all, and the shop they used may have billed them for work not actually performed (this is disputed).
@AlexanderBurgers Most US states require an annual inspection equivalent to am MOT (BTW I am British, so not an apologist for areas in the US where corners are cut).
@@pulaski1 That is true in New York State as well. However, this particular vehicle was so large that a repair shop required a special certification from the state to perform inspections. The shop the owners used did not have the certification and should not have performed the inspection, but they did anyway. Also, limousines this large are supposed to be inspected by the department of transportation (DOT) every six months, instead of by a repair shop once a year. The owners had changed the registration to show fewer passengers so that they could escape this regulation, and the state had no way of tracking the change in registration and identifying the discrepancy.
well of course the one dude fled back to his camel lol they were from the hellhole that is the middle east-thats why I don't ever do business with these kind of people because it's in their culture to rip people off
Scary.... Hurtling down a hill with no brakes. The driver may have been able to limit the speed by throwing the yransmission in low gear for more engine braking, but it probably wouldn't have saved his life. I've had brake failure twice, thankfully I was driving a manual transmission vehicle and my parking brake also worked... i also wasn't going down a large hill.
That's terrifying; twice! My husband/his vehicle were the break point while stopped at a red light, for a man that lost his brakes on the freeway and took an exit to stop. Everyone was okay, no serious injuries, thankfully. My almost 15 year old is anxious about brakes going on on a vehicle when she gets her drivers license. I won't tell her about someone saying it's happened twice to them😬 lol
@@katrina3560That's why you get into a low gear before you need to. If you're already in a low gear by the time you need your service brakes, they'll be ready to slow you. A reasonable tactic is staying in a low gear and just using the accelerator to cancel engine braking
@@pootispiker2866 manual transmission cars, and trucks this size are very rare. I can almost gurantee this truck had an automatic transmission. I was looking at the road, its hard to tell there is an incline after crossing under RT.90. Horrible combination.
Cars and light trucks in USA have automatic transmissions. For the most of the world not familiar with these, it has a hydraulic turbine instead of clutch, that can transfer torque only forward way, it is incapable of engine braking.
This brought back some memories. 28 years ago I was working on the design and crash simulation of Cadillac stretch limos, as surprisingly these were built by Cadillac itself and designed to meet the relevant crashworthines standards. However the ones we worked were only maybe 10ft longer than standard and aimed at business customers. Nothing like this monster.
In UK some of the bridges are very old and are called hump back bridges. I'm pretty sure the centre of this thing would have bottomed out on such a bridge.
@@Phiyedough In Trinidad we have a particularly hard bump high enough to get your car airborne doing 90kmh I can guarantee the way that thing it build it would sheer off the underside of it
This was kinda close-to-home for me, as I'm from Central / "Upstate" New York. Absolute tragedy. So many loved ones and family members in one place. Idk if other disasters are "easier" or "harder" for families to bear seeing how a big industrial disaster killing workers affects more families but less people in each family, where this one wiped out entire sections of families. I'm glad this tragedy, this PREVENTABLE tragedy, is not being forgotten.
@@eaglescout1984 Yesss! Brick Immortar is what introduced me to the dangers of duck boats. I just got back from Boston and wanted to go on one, but my wife said no, we didnt have train if we wanted to make dinner. She might have saved us both if something happened.
At crash speeds of 120 mph, crashworthiness of civilian cars turns from real to imaginary. You need a race car chassis with accompanying personnel safety gear to survive that, such as movement-limiting seats, 5-point harness, crash helmets and HANS devices.
Yup, even the mostly perfectly designed ultra-safe cars, like a Mercedes S-Class, Volvo S80 or Audi A8 would have a tough time keeping their occupants safe at 120 mph given the forces involved. A 20 year old stretched Excursion is basically a death sentence.
Safety regulations are written in blood, so much blood that the tape is stained and you need excessive amount because it doesn't stick very well. Too often the paperwork is greasy.
I drove taxi, about 10 years back, in my home town work no passenger endorsement or anything. All I had was my class C, and I drove a van with up to 8 people sometimes. Never questioned, never even mentioned needing limo endorsement. Hell, I even drove Loren Michaels from the local private airport to his summer home 90 minutes away.
To anyone who doesn’t know; you can engine brake an automatic transmission vehicle by shifting into one of the manual low range gears(the 1, 2, and 3 on the shift indicator). It may damage your engine or transmission at high speeds but that’s preferable to losing control and hitting something at 100+ mph.
Yup, it's possible, but the transmission might have crumbled under the immense mechanical pressure at that speed. Still, worth a try considering the danger
For the sake of my peace of mind and my sanity, i gave in and got RUclips Premium, no ads except for sponsorships in some videos, depending on the creator
In his defense he isn’t American so I wouldn’t expect him to be able to know the names off the top of his head lol. For us we see them 5x a week. For him, I doubt he’s ever even seen one in person
Whelp, not riding in a iimo any time soon! Had no idea they weren't factory OEM. btw I have been subscribing for a long time now, a couple of years, and I just wanted to say you have the most relaxing voice to listen too even when the subject material is as grim as a limo crash.
Tip: in the US, we don't say "the NY 30", we'd just call it "30." Like, there's a numbered state route that's actually designated as two state routes running through part of my city, and we just call it 15-501, "fifteen five-oh-one." (They split off into separate routes outside of this stretch of road.) We might add "route" sometimes; back in my home state of CT, it was almost always "route 15" and only rarely just "15", and Route 1, the Post Road, is always referred to by one of those names (for clarification, it's US Route 1, not a state route, and it runs along the eastern coast of the US from Key West all the way to the Canadian border in northern Maine). If we're referring to an interstate highway, we might refer to it just by number, or as I-[number], e.g. I-95, the limited access highway that runs roughly parallel to US 1. The exception is in California, where for some reason they do all the same things except that they stick the definite article on them: the 5, the 410, etc.
Out west (non-California) We will mention the state if we are specifying the state, then it is "New York state route 30" and usually just "30" or "route 30" or "state route 30" after that. In my area many parts of state routes are named and they get called by their primary name a lot, which gets confusing because the name isn't consistent. We pretty much always say "Oracle Rd" for the part that is Oracle/Main/Grenada (like "take Oracle to downtown" though I think Grenada isn't 77, a perpendicular street is) but going out of town you hear "Take Oracle Rd/Rte. 77 north to get to the Ren Fest" We call it "Route 77" when discussing it outside of town like Rte. 66. But I agree "N.Y. 30" is how exactly no one says it. Since this is to a presumed out of state audience for the most part, saying "New York state route" the first time makes sense, but just "route 30" or "30" after that makes sense. It is always curious how people from other places will read things we don't even think about. Oh and here interstates always have an I, so I-10, I-19, I-8, I-40, etc. Then they hit California and become "the 10" and such (I-19 is safe, it goes to Mexico instead).
If you LIVE in the state you will leave off the state road designation. There is nothing wrong with John saying "New York hiway 30" and ect. There is also nothing wrong with saying "Interstate 90" as opposed to "I-90".
And if you're english and telling the world about it you call it ny 30.😂 do you think local people in missouri call Mo-15 by that name or just hwy 15, or even just 15?😂
This reminds me of Australia's own Hunter Valley Bus Crash. That's one worth breaking down, John, because that is a mess that remains an ongoing court drama.
Thanks, John. This was such a horrific incident from start to finish. For anyone who wants a more in-depth look and isn't averse to some dark humour, Well There's Your Problem's episode on it was really eye-opening, especially the bit about how conversion limos are made.
Age of the vehicle at time of crash says something about the conversion... They don't go that long unless the conversion was done well. Many have the frame sag and get scrapped in under 5 years.
I saw a custom limo once built on an international class 6 truck chassis, that vehicle definitely had adequate brakes, suspension, and chassis. That may stretch the definition of a “limo”, but it was very nice and fancy.
@@seasons1745 Wasn't it the accident where the other car was badly damaged but the driver was perfectly fine as the car took the impact of the crash while the Cyber Truck was unscarred but the driver died?
@@myra0224 nope, guy was speeding and struck the bottom of his CT hard battery ignited the doors failed and the windows couldn’t break he burned alive in the truck
Scoharie is really considered the outer capital region of NY, but everyone calls anything north of NYC upstate. It drives us nuts. Great video as always :)
Having driven a heavy truck down a steep grade myself, I surmise the brakes overheated and thats why it seized. That first stop he made might have been him noticing the hot brakes, but then he continued anyway. Even when the brakes are really good, they will overheat if used too much on a downhill. So it would be unusual for substandard brakes not to do the same and quicker.
I'm surprised they don't have pre-built limousines for their intended purpose as that sounds a lot safer than Frankensteining an existing car to turn it into a limousine! Mind you I assume its probably cause a pre-built limousine would be more expensive than a converted one!
I am so sorry for what your husband had to live through. I have heard some truly horrible comments about the scene and how the responders were all offered therapy afterward.
So, interestingly, I drove “Limos” in WA state for a time. I use quotes, because I only ever drove Towncars, not any stretch limos, though we did have one. I would say that our cars were safety deficient except even more surprisingly the state cared far more about amenities offered than the safety of the vehicle. The whole limo system is pretty messed up, and you’re far safer taking a registered taxi. Taking a limo is barely better than hiring an Uber.
A MILLION SUBS congrats John!! Your thoughtful, respectful, and ever-so-slightly lighthearted work genuinely makes YT a better place. Here's to the next zero!
I don't want to be nitpicky, but I cannot help myself: The pictures show a stretch Ford Excursion, not a Ford Explorer. - Anyway, great video, as always!
I remember this accident. I can't recall mentions of speed at the time, though there was online speculation that the driver couldn't see the intersection in time to stop due to the the road design. I used Google Street View to determine approximate sight lines, as well as distances of warning signs.
@@orppranator5230 The Conversion itself was the biggest problem. In the sense that it wasn't done probably and certainly not to the standards of the original manufacturer. And while enforcement is indeed a problem, requiring conversions to be done in-house shouldn't be too difficult to enforce.
This reminds me of the Hunter Valley bus crash recently that killed 10 wedding guests, the driver was just sentenced to 32 years in prison for manslaughter.
I was going to college in the area when this happened, I remember how devastated the community was. My singing group actually sang at the memorial for this tragedy
If my uncle's old tow truck is anything to go off of, nothing bad could Possibly go bad when adding more weight than originally designed for and keeping original brakes It was a rear qheel drive truck 1500 something manual truck, he cut off the original suspension and put on some heavy duty 3500 suspension, and just personally thickened the steering tie rods. He doesn't remember how long it lasted, but one day he was going down the highway with a super heavy load (van packed with shit, ready for the crusher) and all of a sudden. His driveshaft gave up on life, he tried to brake to pull over and not throw a random driveshaft on the highway for someone to run over. Brakes died (rear brakes were fine, but the front ones just clean sheered off) and he just drove off the side and bailed 😂. Truck hit a cliff face and finally gave up on life 🫡, trailer was surprisingly unscathed aside from the plastic battery & electronics holder being forcefully ejected. Uncle just made a sturdy metal housing for it though, and still tows with it today
Me too. Memories flooded back with the picture of the son in the mask. I didn’t look into much of the details so I had no idea it was the son taking the fall and not the actual owner.
CORRECTION: Rhe strech Limo was a FORD EXCURSION, Not a FORD EXPLORER. The Ford Excursion is a heavy-duty (Class 2) SUV marketed by Ford Motor Company from 2000 through 2005. At its introduction, the Excursion was the longest and heaviest SUV ever to enter mass production. Not that the CONDITION of the vehicle was safe or correctly modified. It was not. It was incredibly poorly modified and note as NOT ROADWORTHY OR SAFE.
You upload this while I’m in Schorarie NY for a wedding having lunch 2 minutes from the intersection, I wish I actually watched the video while I was there instead of once I’m back home, literally drove through that intersection to get to Howe Caverns
There is a second type of limousine that isn’t a stretch giant. Instead, it’s designed to carry a few more passengers than normal. I have two examples one of them is the beast aka the President’s Car or Lincoln Town Cars. The second one is basically a slightly bigger Hummer H2 being 18 Feet instead of 17 Feet the height and width also increase to 7.5 Feet wide and 7 Feet tall perspectively. The first two measurements come from an article although the last one comes from pixel measurements and we all know how reliable that is it’s the lifeblood of game theory and well others.
Limos are just legalised cut & shuts, doesn't matter how professionally they're built, they're still a compromised vehicle which never fares well in accidents, add to that the poor maintenance and a driver unqualified, it's a recipe for disaster, I've only ever been in funeral limos with the extra row of seats in the middle, I'd never want to get into the more common "show-off" limo though, I wouldn't feel safe at all...
this story always freaked me out bc when you look at the wreck and seeing how part of it was still intact, you would think there would have been a few survivors. to kill all 20 people, the sheer force that had to been inflicted is just terrifying. probably among the best stories to use on the importance of tough regulations, maintenance and seatbelts.
The European mind can’t comprehend a heavy duty truck with a 6.0L/7.3L turbo diesel engine being converted into a passenger SUV by the maniacs at Ford and then this abomination being stretched out to 30’ long. After watching the video it’s probably a good thing you can’t
As a Dane I find it very hard to understand such a car have a license plate. Here, you can't have a license plate unless the vehicle has passed inspection every two years.
@@yottaforce Thanks to the Tenth Amendment to the US Constitution, the individual states have LOTS of wiggle room regarding vehicle safety, and only 15 of the 50 states require regular safety inspections. In my home state, safety inspections aren't required unless the vehicle is more than 10 years old or has more than 150,000 miles on the odometer. Also, cars over 25 years old are eligible for "historic vehicle" plates, exempting them from inspection entirely.
. I'm a mechanic in the American midwest, the lack of inspections here has led to some spectacular customer vehicles. Several cases of strut towers so rotten the suspension just wiggles around inside the trunk, one time a FWD cadillac from the 80s left it's entire rear suspension hanging by the brake lines and cables as the mounting points were gone. Customer just had is lower the car back into the assembly and drove away. I've had to put my foot down and force my mother to park 2 different vehicles, one a Nissan truck, I came over to fix a fuel leak and when I grabbed the frame to pull myself under, my fingers went through both sided of the boxed frame, the other was a pontiac Bonneville that was completely covered under the hood and around the front suspension and subframe with a 4-5mm layer of sludge, that hid the rear 4 mounting points having disappeared years ago. That's why the car seemed to wander so badly.
I "unstretched" a BMC Mini in the 1970's and called it a "Micro". I took about two feet out of two damaged written off Minis welded together. It was a lovely very little car that got a lot of attention, two seats only, effectively sitting in the original back seat position. No braking or other hassles, short enough to park nose to the curb between normal cars.
My bad the car was a Ford Excursion not an explorer!
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Indeed, quite a lot bigger and more robust than an Explorer. The Excursion is based on the F-250 ¾-ton class full-size pickup truck chassis, where the Explorer of the time was more closely related to the Ranger mid-size pickup, and the Expedition (and luxury variant Navigator) between them was based on the F-150 ½-ton class full-size pickup.
The Excursion platform would have had sufficient braking ability for the added weight of the stretch conversion since it was intended to carry and tow a significant amount of weight. It's also a body-on-frame construction as most American limousines traditionally were, including the ever popular Lincoln Town Car.
Since the body is not a load-bearing member of the vehicle's structure, cutting and welding in a stretch section doesn't compromise the overall structure nearly as much as it would for a unibody vehicle like an Omega. The underlying frame is also far easier to reinforce for increased load carrying capacity.
This is of course assuming all cuts and welds were properly done and treated for rust prevention to a similar level as the manufacturer, which rarely actually occurs.
@@waffle911 To add, had the brakes been in working condition. They're more than capable to handle the load of the conversion because the original truck/suv was designed for towing. with up to a 10,000lb capacity depending on the engine it came with.
I was going to say, I can’t imagine anyone being excited to get in a stretch Explorer. That’d be like your Vauxhaul example.
You on point!
Jesus that's so much worse...
One thing that was not mentioned here were the passengers in the limousine were a husband and wife celebrating the wife's birthday with all three of the wife's sisters, two of their husbands, and the husband's brother along with a few more pairs of couples. They had originally rented a party bus to go to a craft beer brewery so they would not be driving drunk, but the party bus had broken down, so the Prestige Limo was a last minute replacement. The parents of the four sisters recalled in a news interview having to suddenly plan four funerals, sell three houses and seven cars, deal with their daughters' student loans, and having to care for their now orphaned grandchildren.
That is so awful. I cannot even imagine.
I hope they somehow find solace and are able to recover emotionally and financially.
This is just awful! I hope those grandkids are doing ok.
😳
Meanwhile the husbands of the sisters, the wife’s husband, and his brother need funerals as well. Tragic.
Thank you for adding
"The driver couldn't be interviewed on account of being dead" bruh 💀
It is not untrue
@@PlainlyDifficult If you aren't willing to take 7 levels of cleric to interview the dead are you even REALLY a journalist? :P
@@PlainlyDifficult You got a point ☝🏾❤.
🫵🏿☝🏿🤦🏿♂️🤷🏿♂️@@PlainlyDifficult
I feel like its a pretty valid reason to not participate in a interview
The father fled the country to let his son take the fall. Disgusting.
Very rubbish
Was the Father turned into a buttery paste?
@@off2geo ur gramps had butery paste in his bak when i was done
Not surprising at all. The way the company was run, the father was probably a total narcissist. Abandoning his son to face the consequences is in line with everything else he was doing.
@@MidnightPolaris800nobody cared about your stupid comment. Like your whole life.
There is even more to the story that you missed. The limo should have been registered as a commercial vehicle, as it had more than 14 seats, 18 total. When prestige purchased the limo, they registered it with only 14 seats as a regular "van". This allowed them to get away with simpler inspections. The regular inspection process in NY is fairly simple, with the entire inspection being done in a shop, mostly focused on visual inspection for things like rust, leaks, and tires/brakes. If the limo was properly registered, it would have been required to go through a commercial vehicle inspection, which is a much more intensive and thorough process including actual stopping distance tests that the limo would almost certainly have failed. This also meant they could put the unqualified driver in the vehicle, as it was registered as something he was qualified for. They continued to load it with more than 14 people though, because they knew its capacity was 18. The fact they registered it wrong on purpose to escape restrictions shows that this was not an accident at all, but premeditated.
Not only that but it had failed the inspection but they ignored the paperwork and put it back on the road. The owner and son should’ve gotten more severe punishment. They destroyed those families.
Lawsuit
@@Nicholas-f5 With what assets, father they need to put in an extradition order to Pakistan and wait a year or three, but still they will get nothing out of them. Son all they will get is $1 per day if he is working in the prison doing labour. Best would be the judge to have made the sentence sequential, so he serves a minimum of 30 years before being eligible for parole. Then $1000 over that as compensation for the 20 victims.
Even if they replaced the brakes and tires, they'd be for a normal Excursion, not the stretch or super-stretched version.
The body chassis and wheel assemblies aren't reconfigured to prevent less capable brakes and tires from being installed.
Unless an expert mechanic or automotive engineer knows to install better components, all they'd have to do is a fast swap, pass inspections, and away it goes. Even though the tires and brakes aren't capable of stopping such a heavy vehicle.
I had a limo for my wedding and it was really strange squeezing through the tight twisty cobbled streets near Stirling Castle, but our driver did a stellar job of not destroying any parked cars, pedestrians or historic buildings.
Limos are made for America!
@@WalterHildahl and as Americans, my wife and I wonder often why Limosines still exist.
Stirling's very lovely. Have an infinite Marriage please.
I also try to avoid pedestrians while driving.
@@goosenotmaverick1156 I rode in one in 5th grade back in the 90's because we won the Pizza Hut Book Club tournament. So me and 6 other kids got to go to Pizza Hut in a limo. Granted this was in like 1997, but it wasn't great. I tried making a phone call and the phone didn't work because it was still like IMTS from the 80s or something, and it just smelled weird in there. All in all it was an experience, but not one of my top 10s. 😐
"it just goes down hill from here"
Brutal
Literally
Yeah not good dont even warna think about the mess RIP
The realization of having inadequate brakes on a 13,000 lb vehicle going downhill at 100mph has to be the most anxiety inducing scenario a driver/passenger can experience. sheesh
There was a crash in Carson City Nevada a few years ago when a guy with no commercial license was paid to haul a yacht from Lake Tahoe. The highway is steep and winding with a signaled intersection at the bottom. He was towing a 44 foot, 38,000 pound boat with a regular Ford F-350, which had a maximum towing capacity of 21,000 pounds. He failed to use the runaway truck ramps and plowed into cross traffic, killing an older couple. The boat and trailer kept rolling down the highway and hit more cars. There have been multiple crashes at this intersection from trucks that can't stop but this was the worst.
@@janelj54 Why the hell didn't he use the runaway truck ramps?
Since this was actually an Excursion, a 3/4 ton chassis, the brakes should have been adequate...
@@tz138 He kept saying Explorer but I'll forgive him on the account of being in the UK where the biggest passenger cars are Land Rovers. Excursions were beasts, I had a coworker who had one with a V10. Thing got maybe 8 MPG.
@@Nefvilleout of the three engine options, they were all rubbish. The tritions or navistar’s powerstroke, i was ecstatic when they were replaced.
In my teens I occasionally helped out at an auto repair shop swapping labor for instruction and experience. Among the vehicles I worked on were three limos; I was shocked at how haphazard and shoddy the conversions on two of them were. The exception was the limo that was owned by a funeral home...a vehicle that was never likely to see a highway or exceed 25 mph.
The owner and mechanics detested working on limos, they could not ever be repaired quite right because of their frankenstein nature. The boss and the oldest mechanic advised me to never drive or use a limo, them being "accidents waiting to happen."
Today's story reminded me of a fatal limousine experience that happened around ten years ago in San Mateo County, California, USA on a suspension bridge over the San Francisco Bay. It was a fire due to the conversion, and it killed IIRC five women who were part of the wedding party. Horrible stuff.
They do come across as rolling death traps!
I worked for a few dealers, and I didn't see any conversion limos. But I will say the small taxi companies in my area had the worst vehicles I've ever seen safety wise.
Funeral homes, ironically, have the safest limos.
@@CoryRwtfyt They had one customer who was also a taxi entrepreneur. The shop did service and repairs on his pair of late 70s (I think) Checker Marathons, "Tweedledum" and "Tweedledee." His examples were dreamy- he didn't cut corners and he kept the undercarriages clean, very important in Chicago due road salt. Plus Checker made dirt simple, logical cars with no vanity to them. His had the Chevy 250 cid I-6 and GM TH400 3-speed automatics; easy peasy to work on and dead reliable. I did hear horror stories from one mechanic about taxis in general, though, and how some branches cut corners wherever possible. Example: Leaking caliper? Cut the hose, run a bolt into it as a plug, secure with a hose clamp...problem solved! 😯
@@ordinaryk Their customer base is already assured, no need to create new clients. 😉
The couple had originally reserved an actual party bus for this outing, but it canceled on them that morning, and they ended up with this monstrosity as a last minute replacement. Conversion limos shouldn't be allowed on the road when safe, purpose-built alternatives are so readily available now.
That’s terrible
I remember another channel that covered this said one of the teenaged passengers texted their friend just before leaving that the converted limo looked like a death trap or some other comment joking about it'd probably kill her.
@@christinaknapp1980 And that “the engine is making everyone deaf.”
@@christinaknapp1980 Dear lord, that's horrifying.
I'm surprised the passengers in the very back didn't survive if they were wearing the seatbelts.
The license of the driver is the least concern, if you ask me. He was allowed to drive vehicles of that size, just not transport passengers as "cargo".
Not upgrading and servicing the brakes, however, is extremely negligent.
I agree. He was endorsed to drive doubles and triples, the P endorsement is the least of the problem.
This case, and a bus crash at the school I taught at (serious injuries, but thankfully no deaths) had me kind of scratching my head at how much people talked about certain aspects. In this limo case, while the driver did have some issues himself, really, none of that contributed to the crash. This disaster seems obviously 100% a case of failed brakes due to lack of maintenance. With the bus crash at my school, it was the opposite. There was a lot made in the local news about the bus company forging maintenance records, which is bad of course. That said, the brakes didn't fail or have anything to do with the crash. The driver fell asleep and let the bus go off the road at full speed and flip over.
Agreed. If I got hired for a job that a company told me I'm qualified for, I'm not likely to question it. No one researches the law for what is most likely a minimum wage position. In cases like this, the company is still the one largely at fault
Truck drivers are required by law to do pre-trip inspections of their vehicles. If he'd done that, he'd have known not to drive it. But he probably would have done it anyway, because who wants to get fired?
Here in Canada you require a "Class 4" license, which is just basically a Class 5 or GDL with an extra Exam and Medical Test. Allows you to transport passengers up to a limit. Basically says you're fit to operate.
Whenever you take a vehicle whether it's yours, a friends or a companies, you're responsible for making sure it's roadworthy. Especially if you've got the lives of others in your hands.
It sounds like the driver thought something may be wrong, because he pulled over prior to the accident, maybe the brakes were feeling poor. Yet he continued on anyways and got many others killed.
You missed a lot of the chicanery in this incident. The owners had re-registered the limousine with the state as smaller than it really was, so they would fall under less strict inspection rules. York State didn’t track registration changes so they had no way to identify and investigate the discrepancy. The New York State police had several times placarded the limousine as out of service for safety violations, but the owners just scraped the stickers off and continued to use the vehicle. The police knew they were doing this, but they didn’t confiscate the vehicle, even though they had the authority to do so. The car repair shop that performed the annual vehicle safety inspections was not authorized to do so on such large vehicles, but they did it anyway. And the same shop may have billed for brake work that was not actually performed, although this is in dispute. The rear brake lines weren’t merely pinched to reduce the hydraulic flow, one of them was clamped off with a pair of vise grip pliers, and the brake caliper was seized, indicating that it hadn’t been used in months.
And wait - there's more! As others pointed out, this was a last-minute booking intended to provide safe transportation for a group of young people (many whom were related to each other) to a brewery for a birthday celebration. The driver had not anticipated working that day, but needed the work and couldn't refuse when he was called in that morning even though his wife later said that he told her he was not comfortable driving after partying the night before. The underwriters who insured the limo company declared bankruptcy, and ceased operations after the event. There were allegations that the posted speed limit for the stretch of road were excessive considering the elevation changes and curves, and therefore the New York State Department of Transportation should share some of the blame for the accident. The ultimate owner of the limo company (who fled to Pakistan and has never returned) is alleged to have been an confidential informer for the FBI who may have interfered in the investigation to protect their source. The young and inexperienced local prosecutor responsible for the investigation insisted on impounding the wrecked limo and wouldn't allow the NTSB to get access to it for several weeks after the incident. That prosecutor initially agreed to a plea deal that would have allowed the business operator to avoid a custodial sentence, but then the judge who approved that deal retired, and the judge who replaced him rejected the deal and forced the matter to go to trial. The limo company owner's son (who was the defacto operator of the business at the time of the incident) has appealed his conviction but the appeal court has not yet announced its decision. However, a few days before the appeal was to be heard, the owner contacted several local news outlets by phone from Pakistan to tell them that his son had been diagnosed with advanced lung cancer - angling for sympathy, perhaps. And the limo company had been operating out of a decrepit old motel, and several weeks after this accident, there was an additional incident in which a dead body was found in one of the guest rooms in the motel.
This is insane.
Wow! That is crazy! Imho that's murder. Clamping brake lines! Like wtaf!!!
Speed limit there is fine and complete normal for the area and was never a consideration. @@monophoto1
......what the hell?? @@monophoto1
I know a guy who runs a service and also has an Excursion, he had the body placed on an unlengthened F650 frame. It's tall with a wide tire stance, and handles the way it was meant to.
And has brakes more than capable of stopping the vehicles mass, since it's designed for heavy towing to begin with.
@@DrewLSsix Big brakes don't stop you faster, they stop you longer. Brakes stop the car by converting kinetic energy into heat, which actually works quite well since kinetic energy is tiny. A car going 50 mph down the road has the same kinetic energy as 10 lbs of boiling water has thermal energy. The limiting factor is caliper heating, which causes brake fluid to boil and reduce effective pad pressure, since the fluid in the brake line stops being incompressible. Bigger brakes cool faster and have more thermal mass, but that's it. This only becomes an issue on a race track, or if you're rolling down a huge mountain without using engine brake.
This crash happened because of multiple point brake system failure. The brakes themselves seemed adequate, considering how long it worked just fine.
@@michaelbuckers So many partial truths... Which does not make facts.
@@Katchi_ You're partially right. Actual energy contained in 10 lbs of boiling water is MORE than the kinetic energy of F-150 barreling down the highway at 50 mph, by 25%. You may not be able to fully lock up the rotors with small brakes if you use drag racing tires and smart car brake booster on a loaded truck, so there's a scenario in which you need a bigger brake to stop faster. This scenario is also where brake size is a limiting factor. The brake turns a minuscule amount of kinetic energy into acoustic noise and frictional material ablation, not just heat alone. Overheating of rotors can become an issue outside of a race track or a mountain, if you put a blowtorch to it.
But all of that amounts to a big load of pedantry with absolutely no consequence. Which is why I didn't include it to begin with.
@@Katchi_ what he was missing was so long as the brakes can physically lock up the wheels The limiting factor to stopping distance to that point is traction of the rubber to the road, almost all brake systems are more than capable of blocking up the wheels with massive amounts more weight behind the the vehicle then they are accounted for stock, he was correct the bigger issue for upgraded brake systems is stopping the brake fluid from boiling since smaller brake systems dealing with lighter loads will have less capacity to absorb and dissipate heat meaning they are more prone to break fade, but under the assumption that the brakes were not heavily used and overheated directly before that crash you could triple the amount of breaks and even tires (make it a 18 wheeler for all that matters) and it will stop in the exact same distance so long as the rubber compounds and the weight stay the same (tire contact area to the road counterintuitively does not have any effect on stopping distance, The friction coefficient is solely based on rubber compound road surface quality and vehicle weight)
Business owners in the US will make a million dollars on a piece of equipment and still refuse to spend $600 on brakes. Ive personally seen multiple $150,000+ trucks catastrophically fail because of lack of maintenance.
This is universal world wide. People operating large vehicles with revenues in the millions but they draw the line on tires and brakes else the company folds 😅
1:23 Reminds of that one Top Gear episode, where they made their own bizarre limousines.
BTW, the limo in this incident was a Ford Excursion, not an Explorer.
Can you imagine a 30' Explorer? Lol
This is exactly what came to mind for me as well.
30' Mustang with a cummins would be super american
I am a volunteer EMT with an ambulance squad that responded to this (although I wasn’t a member yet of it). I was (and still am) in the volunteer fire service a county over and in college at the time of the crash, but not in EMS yet when it happened, but went to college with a volunteer FF from Richmondville (he later moved to Cobleskill) who went to the accident with the Schoharie County Hazmat Team to help with the cleanup and body recovery. He told me he will never unsee the things he saw there during the cleanup when he went into the limo and around the Apple Barrel (the restaurant the crash happened at). The chief of my ambulance squad also went, and said similar things. It’s so weird to think an incident so close to me is being covered by channels I watch regularly. God bless everyone who responded to this horrific accident and did the best they could to save those on board.
dead bodies really arent that bad its a process that happens in life sometimes soon sometimes it takes a while aka old age but i think people that are bothered by the dead shouldnt work with the dead simply because its gonna mess up their life and family life
The state on New York has priorities. It can't go after every limousine death trap when there are so many shopkeepers with improper countertop heights or incorrect "We're Open" sign color.
Or little girls with lemonade stands. Gotta be real strict with them!
This happened not far from me. I still hear it come up in conversation occasionally. A huge tragedy, so easily preventable.
Its not even more than basic car maintenance really, if its worn out and your business, you fix it.
@@krissteel4074Id rather they also upgrade the braking system to account for the extra weight and mass of the vehicle. There's a reason buses don't have the same brakes as a standard SUV.
@@_GntlStone_ Sadly that seems to be a voluntary engineering requirement in that part of the world instead of an accredited one.
@@_GntlStone_ And a wider wheel and tire package, to be able to utilize the braking performance from the uprated braking system.
@@_GntlStone_ agreed, my mini shuttle bus (no longer used in that capacity) has a GVWR of 10,500lbs, more than a ton and a half lower than that monstrosity. I guarantee it has more than double the braking power
I worked for several years as a mobile electronics installer and have worked on many limos. They were all massive fire hazards and many were in need of major servicing. Think dozens of "I know a guy" type repairs stacked on top of each other for years. I had an Escalade super strech on 22s with no power steering, but as long as the 15s in the back were bumping and the disco lights worked he didn't care
The fact he left his son that ended up taking the heat is just another tragedy - what a scumbag!
Very much was a douche leaving his son
Unfortunately, that's not uncommon in the Pakistani/Muslim culture. The father would be the head of the family, and seen as the main source of wealth in the family. The son going to prison in his place would be seen as a mark of respect, and an honor, as it let the main moneymaker continue to grow the family's wealth...
It's a strange viewpoint from a western point of view, but within their culture it makes sense.
@@gchampi2 And we in the West are supposed to believe they will integrate and become valued citizens!
What do you expect from a society that places so little value on human life? Why do you think we call them "pakies?"
@@jasperhorace7147 Only if you're delusional
I work as a bus driver, and for a few years I worked at a charter company that had a converted Ford Expedition limo. That company always worked to maintain a high standard, making sure all the drivers had the proper endorsements and medical clearance for interstate travel, as well as frequent drug testing, and kept their fleet of buses and motorcoaches in good working order. I never once felt unsafe driving any of the buses or the limo, and even when something did go pear-shaped, I never felt I was in any real danger. Just very inconvenienced, like the time a motorcoach broke down in the middle of South Dakota and I had to wait for a tow. If I had seen any of the corner cutting this company was doing, I'd have run the other way and maybe even tried to alert the DOT.
Not sure what state your licenses in but I'm from Mass and drove charter buses for about 20 years. Contacting our state DOT really didn't result in any quick inspections. It takes multiple complaints and years before the company is shut down. I also was employed by companies that stayed ahead of maintenance but I can't tell you the number of buses I ran into during down times that I wouldn't put an animal on. And the general public doesn't have our insider knowledge so they don't know who to contact to get the ball rolling.
I remember hearing about this horrible accident when it happened and telling my husband (who is also a CDL bus driver) that there was something wrong with the limo and that the driver wasn't trained. Turns out my statement was the tip of the iceburg. NY state dropped the ball several times starting when it was first registered in the state to just before the accident. And they also dropped the ball on the company as well.
Luxury goods markets draw in greedy bastards because of the fat profit margins
Companies like this one are likely not hiring the "whistle-blower" type. More like the, "you don't have a license? What a coincidence, we don't either" mutually shady people.
The NYDOT had already tagged the limo out of service with a windshield sticker. The company scraped it off and put it back into service
Class B CDL is required if the vehicle seats more that 15 people.
this was HUGE news when it happened with a massive uproar about the shady limo business as a whole. There's a lot of under-the-table limo companies that operate outside the laws and regulations and this was inevitable with the lack of real oversight and greed in the industry. And it sucks the confidence out of truly legitimate Limousine companies who operate fully licensed and maintained Limos.
They operate outside of the laws and regulations because the government lets them do it.
My brother in law was with the Florida Highway Patrol, he knew of several troopers who purchased used limos and drove as a side job. The money was very good but they didn't drive for any limo company and the upkeep on the vehicles was sketchy. Florida used to require annual vehicle inspections but stopped doing them.
Has US really moved from Community Working Model to Public-Private partnership format? I doubt.
Luxury goods draw in many greedy people on both sides of the trade
@@samsonsoturian6013true.
I’m 50 years old and only just now learned that limos aren’t actually manufactured as limos, but are created by Frankensteining other cars. I knew you could do that, but I thought it was just a DIY thing novelty project.
Meanwhile, I live a couple blocks away from a large funeral home that has about 30 hearses. Are hearses actually made or do they take a vehicle and then modify it to be a hearse?
hearses are generally also modified cars, they're modified by coachbuilding companies, some with factory support/cooperation, some independently.
@@WendyDarling1974 Ford actually used to publish guidelines on how to turn some of their vehicles into limousines (length and weight limits, etc), and they used to certify vehicle modification shops that would perform the work. I don’t think Ford publishes stretch guidelines anymore because of the liability. And in any case, this vehicle far exceeded the allowable guidelines and the work was not performed by a certified shop.
I am only 10 years ahead of you in learning this. How was this kept a secret for so long?
Fortunately, passenger safety in a hearse is not a huge concern. 😂
(TBH, I don't know if hearses normally carry passengers apart from the deceased or not, but it's a good throwaway joke...)
I had no idea either. I have seen like four limos in my lifetime. I can imagine it's hard to get them certified as driveable in Sweden if this is how they are made
"Our long term friends of this channel, the NTSB" - that's awesome, Mate! 😀
“Who would get excited by an Opel Omega stretch”
People in Donegal and NI sure like em
Being of a somewhat Gothic persuasion, we once almost bought an old, black stretched Volvo 740 funeral car as a fun alternative to a minivan for hauling the kids around. Knowing what I do now about stretch cars, I'm glad we didn't... plus it would have made Asda car park a bit of a challenge.
Opel Omega, Vauxhall Omega, Commodore Omega - all the same GM rubbish hiding behind local brand names.
Imagine a stretched Vauxhall-Lotus Carlton.
@@AntoniusTyas that would be fun !
@@AntoniusTyas Come down to Australia! They’re getting rarer but stretch Commodore (same platform as the Carlton) V8 limousines exist!
I know nothing about engineering or technological stuff, im just a random artist and prop maker but these videos are always fascinating to me lol, pushes me outa my comfort zone for lack of a better word
Thank you!!
i know everything about engineering, in fact i probably know more about engineering than any other human alive today.
@TungstenCarbideProjectile
Yep engineering BS answers that really aren't true 💩💩💩💩💩💩👨🦽🐴
Hey, I'm a random artist and prop maker too! Not often I see my kind in the wild :)
@@CainXVII hell yea! Im yet to meet anyone else who does what i do irl lmao, granted im still somewhat learning lol
I am an upstate NY resident from Albany, who lives about 30 minutes from where this happened. This was such a messed up tragedy and a truly disgusting display of negligence and irresponsible actions. So damn sad and horrible
Why are these dodgy limos so popular in NY? I don't think I've ever seen them anywhere else. I think it must be due to some quirk in NY vehicle law.
@kuebby The people who like limos also like giant cities. I saw a professionally made limo sitting in a dealership out here on the plains, that's it.
@@kuebby It's def not the law, unless someone's palm is getting greased. The laws are strict and costly for any motor vehicle but especially heavy duty and special purpose vehicles. The state does all the inspections on those vehicles. This guy actually just got that limo inspected not too long before the accident, but it wasn't by the state, it was a nationwide chain garage. I'm not saying any names but a tire or muffler place is coming to mind as doing the inspection. They're not authorized to inspect limos in NY. So he must've paid an employee to do it, or the guy wasn't trained properly. Since the limo was illegally made, the original title and registration never changed it's class. When a pass veh or light truck comes in, they scan the reg sticker in the windshield - now the NYS inspection computer is linked to the reg - which is from the original vehicle. So the dude just peeks quick at one of the brake pads, checks the outside lights, tire tread, and it has to get plugged into the veh to check emissions and whatever. If the guy didn't know he wasn't allowed to inspect limos, nothing would've red flagged from the state. On the other hand, there's never just one person working at these joints. A manager is always there. They prob have been paying people to do it for as long as they were operating it. So if it's not the law that's the prob here, I'd say it's prob the caliber of some people that have been coming here legally for decades now, to run businesses that get big tax breaks and other incentives to set up shop. Think of a family from anywhere else on earth other than the region he fled to. Now imagine this exact scenario where the father comes home without his son who is facing prosecution for the business you were in charge of. I would expect my family and anyone who sees me wherever I had fled to, to turn me in. It's despicable. So I guess you're right - it is the law. Just not the MV laws. ✌
I am a fleet mechanic for a limousine company, I have seen some shit man...
our 44ft stretch hummer I had to completely re-engineer. from support structures, to power distribution, to the ac system. it was falling apart after only 8 years on this earth. insane...
Upstate NY here... Yeah... this one was huge news for months.....
For some reason, people seem to think it's cool to travel in a stretched limo, but uncool to travel in a bus that is designed for the job of carrying a lot of people. Also, the occasional appearance of the Pinto in this video was a nice touch.
They had reservations for a bus but it cancelled on them last minute that morning, the Limo was the only thing they could get last minute
Buses are commodity, limos are rare.
@@laconicdraconic697 I saw that in another comment. Perhaps I could of worded it differently, but I was referring to people in general, not this particular trip.
@@alexjenner1108 You're good just wasn't sure if you were refering to them or in general, there was a lot of people who were blaming the victims of this case saying they deserved to die for wanting to use a Limo and allat when it really was last choice and even if they had wanted to if they are paying for a service the service has a responsibility to be safe and provide what it states.
The limo driver managing to avoid the car at the “T” intersection suggests that he may not have been very impaired by his meds.
IDK about the heart burn medication, but I'm on the other two mentioned and they don't interfere with driving at all. Heck, dude could have been drunk and it would likely have made little difference on the outcome with how poor a condition the vehicle was in.
The medications mentioned have zero effect on driving or clarity of mind. I feel slightly irked that they were mentioned because it kind of propagates a negative view of antidepressants.
I remember hearing about this, every few years I hear about it again. What's funny is I rode in a modified limousine when back in high school, thankfully it was just that once.
Very lucky!
This is why you should familiarize yourself with downshifting for a long hill.
No doubt that truck had an automatic transmission.
This is why there needs to be laws and regulations preventing shade tree mechanics from making major modifications to a vehicle without engineering reviews. Because common sense often leaves out important, and typically expensive, items like brakes in favour of coooooooool.
@@jeffclark5268 - This operation was already operating with expired certifications and licenses, so any new law would also have been ignored.
Common automatic transmissions are incapable of engine braking due to absence of clutch. That combined with undersized brakes makes it terrifying in a 6 ton vehicle.
@@uralicdneprov1806 that's why you use the gear braking effect of downshifting the automatic
This was a bad one. As bad as that Coach crash years back on the M4 and that was rough. Thanks for posting John....
Had a bus crash in NY sometime after that that was horrible even though only (I think) four people killed. Double decker bus. Driver took a wrong turn. Drove under a low bridge. Everybody on the top deck was killed. Shady fly-by-night Chinese bus company- if I remember correctly, as soon as the news hit everybody having anything to do with the company was ghost.
The fact that you can add so much weight to a vehicle without having to upgrade the brakes and do a real inspection, all while compromising the structural integrity of the frame so haphazardly is insane!
I never planned to ride in a limousine, but now I'm gonna think really hard if I'm going when a friend invites me, even if the route just leads through urban traffic.
Unfortunately, the embiggening is not always perfectly cromulent.
It's often not cromleant either.
A noble spirit embiggens even the smallest vehicle.
I must say you have a silver tounge,
It seems an embiggening can become an embuggerance.
Love your videos! Small correction this was a Ford Excursion not a Ford Explorer. The Excursion is a much larger vehicle. ❤
My bad
I feel this could have been mitigated through the driver's application of either the overdrive lockout (the button on the column shift of this generation of Excursions), or by attempting to downshift to use engine braking. Grenading the transmission is a better outcome that dying, I feel.
The driver probably had no idea about downshifting and grenading the tranny. Heck, most driver's on the road don't even know what the 3-2-1 mean on the PNDL.
I wonder if the witness report of the engine sounding like a jet indicate he had already put the vehicle in as low a gear as possible. I don't have the NTSB report pulled up, but it might say whether they were able to determine which gear it was in prior to the crash.
@@jonathankleinow2073 Looking at the report, they were unable to determine the gearbox's shift position, but it was unlikely the gearbox controller would have put it in 2nd. It still would have downshifted, but not low enough to provide sufficient engine braking. Still could have disabled the overdrive I feel.
Even with an automatic transmission you can downshift to slow down. It's especially useful on long slopes because the engine drag slows the vehicle down without overheating the brakes.
At those speeds, and on such an old limo, it's possible the mechanical pressure would fuck up the transmission, breaking the clutch and basically putting you into perma-neutral. Certainly worth a try though.
@@Transilvanian90 No man, you never let it get TO those speeds.
@@BS-ys8zn Well yeah, but you don’t know how fast it got there and what the guy was trying to do; unfortunately we have very little data on what happened inside the vehicle, no black box, just clues after the crash
On a Limo like this where is looks like they literally did nothing but add extra metal I'm not sure that would work would probably destroy everything and still make you wreck
@@Transilvanian90 No, I've done this on 10, 15 and 20 year old cars. All Excursions had automatics, decently beefy units for truck use.
I remember this tragedy and I am so glad you covered it!
You know, John, I just heard a different channel talking about this and i think you did a little bit better job. I still love that other channel, so I'm not going to shame them online. I just wanted you to know that the info about his CDL endorsements is really important. My husband is a truck driver who has the same endorsements that in no way give him the authority to even drive a schools bus. 🚌 That driver *knew* he was breaking the law. Great job as always, John. I send you this from a lovely 😍 day in Oregon on the West Coast of the US. See you next week.
Here for my weekly dose of Plainly Difficult!
Thank you
It might sound bad that the brakes weren't upgraded, but the Ford Excursion is basically an F250 heavy duty pick-up (not an F150) with an SUV body, which is capable of towing a significant weight, so the upgraded limo, although much heavier than a stock Excursion, remained within the "train weight" capability of a stock Excursion/ F250.
I agree.
All well and good for acceleration, but they didn't add any trailer brakes to cope with that extra load now did they?
And they let it rust and go unmaintained to a degree that'd fail safety inspection, and purposefully dodged certification requirements that'd have enforced safety inspection.
(Also super weird that there's no safety inspection for passenger cars like there is in the rest of the civilized world, but the US has a lot of that kind of "freedom" to endanger others going on.)
The brakes would have been sufficient (barely) if they were in good repair, but they weren’t. One of the brake lines was clamped off with a vise-grip pliers, the rear brakes basically didn’t function at all, and the shop they used may have billed them for work not actually performed (this is disputed).
@AlexanderBurgers Most US states require an annual inspection equivalent to am MOT (BTW I am British, so not an apologist for areas in the US where corners are cut).
@@pulaski1 That is true in New York State as well. However, this particular vehicle was so large that a repair shop required a special certification from the state to perform inspections. The shop the owners used did not have the certification and should not have performed the inspection, but they did anyway. Also, limousines this large are supposed to be inspected by the department of transportation (DOT) every six months, instead of by a repair shop once a year. The owners had changed the registration to show fewer passengers so that they could escape this regulation, and the state had no way of tracking the change in registration and identifying the discrepancy.
The fact the guys operating the company got away so fucking lightly it disgusts me
Sadly true
First time here?
They always do. No accountability.
@@mountaineergirl255 fr, accountability is only for us, peasants
well of course the one dude fled back to his camel lol they were from the hellhole that is the middle east-thats why I don't ever do business with these kind of people because it's in their culture to rip people off
I think the braking system should count as a complex system...BINGO!!!
If Adam Air ran a limo service, it would be THIS "IDGAF" about maintenance company.
Scary.... Hurtling down a hill with no brakes.
The driver may have been able to limit the speed by throwing the yransmission in low gear for more engine braking, but it probably wouldn't have saved his life.
I've had brake failure twice, thankfully I was driving a manual transmission vehicle and my parking brake also worked... i also wasn't going down a large hill.
I can imagine that would be terrifying
That's terrifying; twice! My husband/his vehicle were the break point while stopped at a red light, for a man that lost his brakes on the freeway and took an exit to stop. Everyone was okay, no serious injuries, thankfully.
My almost 15 year old is anxious about brakes going on on a vehicle when she gets her drivers license. I won't tell her about someone saying it's happened twice to them😬 lol
@@katrina3560That's why you get into a low gear before you need to. If you're already in a low gear by the time you need your service brakes, they'll be ready to slow you. A reasonable tactic is staying in a low gear and just using the accelerator to cancel engine braking
@@pootispiker2866 manual transmission cars, and trucks this size are very rare. I can almost gurantee this truck had an automatic transmission. I was looking at the road, its hard to tell there is an incline after crossing under RT.90. Horrible combination.
Cars and light trucks in USA have automatic transmissions. For the most of the world not familiar with these, it has a hydraulic turbine instead of clutch, that can transfer torque only forward way, it is incapable of engine braking.
This brought back some memories. 28 years ago I was working on the design and crash simulation of Cadillac stretch limos, as surprisingly these were built by Cadillac itself and designed to meet the relevant crashworthines standards. However the ones we worked were only maybe 10ft longer than standard and aimed at business customers. Nothing like this monster.
In UK some of the bridges are very old and are called hump back bridges. I'm pretty sure the centre of this thing would have bottomed out on such a bridge.
@@Phiyedough In Trinidad we have a particularly hard bump high enough to get your car airborne doing 90kmh I can guarantee the way that thing it build it would sheer off the underside of it
Horrifying, absolutely terrible. I am grateful to be in a country where stretch limos are way more regulated.
Have a great weekend, John and everyone!
Regulations are only as good as the people enforcing them. There are shady corporations everywhere.
@@Transilvanian90nah America is a horrible third world country
This was a terrible tragedy, I remember being a school kid and seeing this every day on the local news before going to school.
This was kinda close-to-home for me, as I'm from Central / "Upstate" New York. Absolute tragedy. So many loved ones and family members in one place. Idk if other disasters are "easier" or "harder" for families to bear seeing how a big industrial disaster killing workers affects more families but less people in each family, where this one wiped out entire sections of families. I'm glad this tragedy, this PREVENTABLE tragedy, is not being forgotten.
Congrats on 1M subs
I love your work and voice
Thank you!!
Limousines and the Duck Boats are the most dangerous and unsafe things on the road.
I agree
Duck boats are unsafe in the water too
There was an disaster in Missouri a few years ago IIRC
Duck Boats, man. Anyone who is a regular viewer of Brick Immortar's channel will never step foot on one of those death traps.
@@eaglescout1984 I love Brick Immortar
@@eaglescout1984 Yesss! Brick Immortar is what introduced me to the dangers of duck boats. I just got back from Boston and wanted to go on one, but my wife said no, we didnt have train if we wanted to make dinner. She might have saved us both if something happened.
At crash speeds of 120 mph, crashworthiness of civilian cars turns from real to imaginary. You need a race car chassis with accompanying personnel safety gear to survive that, such as movement-limiting seats, 5-point harness, crash helmets and HANS devices.
Yup, even the mostly perfectly designed ultra-safe cars, like a Mercedes S-Class, Volvo S80 or Audi A8 would have a tough time keeping their occupants safe at 120 mph given the forces involved.
A 20 year old stretched Excursion is basically a death sentence.
Race cars are equipped to handle ridiculous g-forces, and for good reason. Anything less than that standard, at 120, is going to be destroyed.
Whenever I hear people complain of “excessive red tape” or “pointless government bureaucracy” I think of incidents like this.
Safety regulations are written in blood, so much blood that the tape is stained and you need excessive amount because it doesn't stick very well. Too often the paperwork is greasy.
I drove taxi, about 10 years back, in my home town work no passenger endorsement or anything. All I had was my class C, and I drove a van with up to 8 people sometimes.
Never questioned, never even mentioned needing limo endorsement.
Hell, I even drove Loren Michaels from the local private airport to his summer home 90 minutes away.
I own a Suburban that seats 8 passengers. You don't need more than a class C license in the state of Maine.
13 passengers is the limit for non CDL applications
I was in the same situation for a few months around the time of the World Cup in NYC.
To anyone who doesn’t know; you can engine brake an automatic transmission vehicle by shifting into one of the manual low range gears(the 1, 2, and 3 on the shift indicator). It may damage your engine or transmission at high speeds but that’s preferable to losing control and hitting something at 100+ mph.
Yup, it's possible, but the transmission might have crumbled under the immense mechanical pressure at that speed. Still, worth a try considering the danger
Man, I remember this being on the news. So sad.
Very sad
I live only a few minutes from the accident site. The memorial is still well maintained and visited often
That’s good it’s still remembered
I will never watch a single other video that has 15 unskipable ads in front of it, plus even more ads in the middle.
For the sake of my peace of mind and my sanity, i gave in and got RUclips Premium, no ads except for sponsorships in some videos, depending on the creator
Not a Ford Explorer but a Ford Excursion
I see someone else noticed as well.
In his defense he isn’t American so I wouldn’t expect him to be able to know the names off the top of his head lol. For us we see them 5x a week. For him, I doubt he’s ever even seen one in person
He corrected in comments.
oh... ok...
@@Shiestey yeah I don’t blame him for the mix up 😂 to non Americans they would look similar
Whelp, not riding in a iimo any time soon! Had no idea they weren't factory OEM.
btw I have been subscribing for a long time now, a couple of years, and I just wanted to say you have the most relaxing voice to listen too even when the subject material is as grim as a limo crash.
Tip: in the US, we don't say "the NY 30", we'd just call it "30." Like, there's a numbered state route that's actually designated as two state routes running through part of my city, and we just call it 15-501, "fifteen five-oh-one." (They split off into separate routes outside of this stretch of road.) We might add "route" sometimes; back in my home state of CT, it was almost always "route 15" and only rarely just "15", and Route 1, the Post Road, is always referred to by one of those names (for clarification, it's US Route 1, not a state route, and it runs along the eastern coast of the US from Key West all the way to the Canadian border in northern Maine). If we're referring to an interstate highway, we might refer to it just by number, or as I-[number], e.g. I-95, the limited access highway that runs roughly parallel to US 1.
The exception is in California, where for some reason they do all the same things except that they stick the definite article on them: the 5, the 410, etc.
Out west (non-California) We will mention the state if we are specifying the state, then it is "New York state route 30" and usually just "30" or "route 30" or "state route 30" after that. In my area many parts of state routes are named and they get called by their primary name a lot, which gets confusing because the name isn't consistent. We pretty much always say "Oracle Rd" for the part that is Oracle/Main/Grenada (like "take Oracle to downtown" though I think Grenada isn't 77, a perpendicular street is) but going out of town you hear "Take Oracle Rd/Rte. 77 north to get to the Ren Fest"
We call it "Route 77" when discussing it outside of town like Rte. 66.
But I agree "N.Y. 30" is how exactly no one says it.
Since this is to a presumed out of state audience for the most part, saying "New York state route" the first time makes sense, but just "route 30" or "30" after that makes sense. It is always curious how people from other places will read things we don't even think about.
Oh and here interstates always have an I, so I-10, I-19, I-8, I-40, etc. Then they hit California and become "the 10" and such (I-19 is safe, it goes to Mexico instead).
If you LIVE in the state you will leave off the state road designation. There is nothing wrong with John saying "New York hiway 30" and ect.
There is also nothing wrong with saying "Interstate 90" as opposed to "I-90".
I was going to make the comment but you explained the situation so well that I needn't.
And if you're english and telling the world about it you call it ny 30.😂 do you think local people in missouri call Mo-15 by that name or just hwy 15, or even just 15?😂
Also, depending on the city, they'll refer to highways by the names given to them, or initials of those. Chicago and New York City are big on that.
This reminds me of Australia's own Hunter Valley Bus Crash. That's one worth breaking down, John, because that is a mess that remains an ongoing court drama.
Thanks, John. This was such a horrific incident from start to finish. For anyone who wants a more in-depth look and isn't averse to some dark humour, Well There's Your Problem's episode on it was really eye-opening, especially the bit about how conversion limos are made.
Thank you for another Saturday morning disaster. Always love your videos, and hearing about the weather in your little corner of London.
The owner of the company was an FBI informant, so any complaints prior to this were swept under the rug.
source
@TheAechBomb it's a fox news article
@@E3istheg sorry, I was looking for a reputable source
@@TheAechBomb Multiple sources, you can look it up.
@@hahayeahokaynope if you can't source a claim, it holds zero weight
Congrats on hitting 1 million subs!
It’s well deserved, thanks for the such good content you make!
Age of the vehicle at time of crash says something about the conversion... They don't go that long unless the conversion was done well. Many have the frame sag and get scrapped in under 5 years.
Especially in NY.
I saw a custom limo once built on an international class 6 truck chassis, that vehicle definitely had adequate brakes, suspension, and chassis. That may stretch the definition of a “limo”, but it was very nice and fancy.
Can't wait to see the inevitable CyberTruck videos you'll cover.
Well, assuming no one gets hurt.
I don't think Cybertrucks are capable of not hurting anyone if an accident were to occur
A guy already died in one in the absolute worst way possible
@@seasons1745 Wasn't it the accident where the other car was badly damaged but the driver was perfectly fine as the car took the impact of the crash while the Cyber Truck was unscarred but the driver died?
@@myra0224 nope, guy was speeding and struck the bottom of his CT hard battery ignited the doors failed and the windows couldn’t break he burned alive in the truck
@@seasons1745 Oh my fucking god, that sounds horrifying!!
Scoharie is really considered the outer capital region of NY, but everyone calls anything north of NYC upstate. It drives us nuts. Great video as always :)
Having driven a heavy truck down a steep grade myself, I surmise the brakes overheated and thats why it seized. That first stop he made might have been him noticing the hot brakes, but then he continued anyway. Even when the brakes are really good, they will overheat if used too much on a downhill. So it would be unusual for substandard brakes not to do the same and quicker.
I thought the same thing. He pulled over because he felt the brakes failing, but continued on anyway.
The brakes weren't even good to begin with
Why would he not downshift into first? I don't get it
Disc brakes don't over heat or fade
@@catsbyondrepair yes they do....
I'm surprised they don't have pre-built limousines for their intended purpose as that sounds a lot safer than Frankensteining an existing car to turn it into a limousine! Mind you I assume its probably cause a pre-built limousine would be more expensive than a converted one!
NY-30 = Route 30. BIL is an NYS Trooper. He was a first responder at that crash. He still can’t unsee what he saw.
I am so sorry for what your husband had to live through. I have heard some truly horrible comments about the scene and how the responders were all offered therapy afterward.
@@patriciayoung3267 I don't think OP's BiL is also their husband.
@@skaldlouiscyphre2453 Sorry about that, but the sympathy still stands.
So, interestingly, I drove “Limos” in WA state for a time. I use quotes, because I only ever drove Towncars, not any stretch limos, though we did have one. I would say that our cars were safety deficient except even more surprisingly the state cared far more about amenities offered than the safety of the vehicle. The whole limo system is pretty messed up, and you’re far safer taking a registered taxi. Taking a limo is barely better than hiring an Uber.
I knew exactly what this was about as soon as I saw the notification.😢
Yeah... upstate NY here as well. Huge news for months...
A MILLION SUBS congrats John!! Your thoughtful, respectful, and ever-so-slightly lighthearted work genuinely makes YT a better place. Here's to the next zero!
I don't want to be nitpicky, but I cannot help myself: The pictures show a stretch Ford Excursion, not a Ford Explorer. - Anyway, great video, as always!
My bad
I remember this accident. I can't recall mentions of speed at the time, though there was online speculation that the driver couldn't see the intersection in time to stop due to the the road design. I used Google Street View to determine approximate sight lines, as well as distances of warning signs.
The United States should pass law that requires limousine conversions to be done by the manufacturer themselves.
Ah yes, “there ought to be a law” even though the current ones weren’t followed. (This limo had expired certifications, for example)
@@orppranator5230
The Conversion itself was the biggest problem. In the sense that it wasn't done probably and certainly not to the standards of the original manufacturer.
And while enforcement is indeed a problem, requiring conversions to be done in-house shouldn't be too difficult to enforce.
How about a manufacturer that manufactures limousines?🤔
@@danceswithcritters
My point is that the manufacturer of the original car are the best people to convert said car into a limousine.
This reminds me of the Hunter Valley bus crash recently that killed 10 wedding guests, the driver was just sentenced to 32 years in prison for manslaughter.
I’ve never heard of that
@@PlainlyDifficult en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_Valley_bus_crash Might be worth a video
I was going to college in the area when this happened, I remember how devastated the community was. My singing group actually sang at the memorial for this tragedy
If my uncle's old tow truck is anything to go off of, nothing bad could Possibly go bad when adding more weight than originally designed for and keeping original brakes
It was a rear qheel drive truck 1500 something manual truck, he cut off the original suspension and put on some heavy duty 3500 suspension, and just personally thickened the steering tie rods. He doesn't remember how long it lasted, but one day he was going down the highway with a super heavy load (van packed with shit, ready for the crusher) and all of a sudden. His driveshaft gave up on life, he tried to brake to pull over and not throw a random driveshaft on the highway for someone to run over. Brakes died (rear brakes were fine, but the front ones just clean sheered off) and he just drove off the side and bailed 😂. Truck hit a cliff face and finally gave up on life 🫡, trailer was surprisingly unscathed aside from the plastic battery & electronics holder being forcefully ejected. Uncle just made a sturdy metal housing for it though, and still tows with it today
Amazing as always John. Cheers and thank you from Houston.
I remember that case... 😢
Me too. Memories flooded back with the picture of the son in the mask. I didn’t look into much of the details so I had no idea it was the son taking the fall and not the actual owner.
CORRECTION: Rhe strech Limo was a FORD EXCURSION, Not a FORD EXPLORER.
The Ford Excursion is a heavy-duty (Class 2) SUV marketed by Ford Motor Company from 2000 through 2005. At its introduction, the Excursion was the longest and heaviest SUV ever to enter mass production.
Not that the CONDITION of the vehicle was safe or correctly modified. It was not. It was incredibly poorly modified and note as NOT ROADWORTHY OR SAFE.
You upload this while I’m in Schorarie NY for a wedding having lunch 2 minutes from the intersection, I wish I actually watched the video while I was there instead of once I’m back home, literally drove through that intersection to get to Howe Caverns
That is an extended excursion not an explorer
There is a second type of limousine that isn’t a stretch giant.
Instead, it’s designed to carry a few more passengers than normal.
I have two examples one of them is the beast aka the President’s Car or Lincoln Town Cars.
The second one is basically a slightly bigger Hummer H2 being 18 Feet instead of 17 Feet the height and width also increase to 7.5 Feet wide and 7 Feet tall perspectively.
The first two measurements come from an article although the last one comes from pixel measurements and we all know how reliable that is it’s the lifeblood of game theory and well others.
20 casualties? In Cambodia you’d get that from 2 motorbikes crashing…
Love love love the reference of rear ending a Ford Pinto. That's a sly reference!
Well Theres Your Problem podcast has a great in-depth video on this
Next thing you know John might set up a Plainly Difficult Bingo Night
Limos are just legalised cut & shuts, doesn't matter how professionally they're built, they're still a compromised vehicle which never fares well in accidents, add to that the poor maintenance and a driver unqualified, it's a recipe for disaster, I've only ever been in funeral limos with the extra row of seats in the middle, I'd never want to get into the more common "show-off" limo though, I wouldn't feel safe at all...
this story always freaked me out bc when you look at the wreck and seeing how part of it was still intact, you would think there would have been a few survivors. to kill all 20 people, the sheer force that had to been inflicted is just terrifying. probably among the best stories to use on the importance of tough regulations, maintenance and seatbelts.
The European mind can’t comprehend a heavy duty truck with a 6.0L/7.3L turbo diesel engine being converted into a passenger SUV by the maniacs at Ford and then this abomination being stretched out to 30’ long. After watching the video it’s probably a good thing you can’t
To be fair the 7.3L are used to tow heavy weights, even as SUVs. The 6.0 are used as expensive heavy paper weights, thanks Ford.
As a Dane I find it very hard to understand such a car have a license plate. Here, you can't have a license plate unless the vehicle has passed inspection every two years.
@@yottaforce Thanks to the Tenth Amendment to the US Constitution, the individual states have LOTS of wiggle room regarding vehicle safety, and only 15 of the 50 states require regular safety inspections. In my home state, safety inspections aren't required unless the vehicle is more than 10 years old or has more than 150,000 miles on the odometer. Also, cars over 25 years old are eligible for "historic vehicle" plates, exempting them from inspection entirely.
. I'm a mechanic in the American midwest, the lack of inspections here has led to some spectacular customer vehicles. Several cases of strut towers so rotten the suspension just wiggles around inside the trunk, one time a FWD cadillac from the 80s left it's entire rear suspension hanging by the brake lines and cables as the mounting points were gone. Customer just had is lower the car back into the assembly and drove away.
I've had to put my foot down and force my mother to park 2 different vehicles, one a Nissan truck, I came over to fix a fuel leak and when I grabbed the frame to pull myself under, my fingers went through both sided of the boxed frame, the other was a pontiac Bonneville that was completely covered under the hood and around the front suspension and subframe with a 4-5mm layer of sludge, that hid the rear 4 mounting points having disappeared years ago. That's why the car seemed to wander so badly.
and yet our 44 foot hummer has a bone stock 5.3 vortec and 4l60 tranmission (on its 5th one actually )
Up until the 80s Cadillac made a commercial chassis usually used for Ambulances Hearses & limousines
They were pretty solid
I think you got a typo in the vid title
I "unstretched" a BMC Mini in the 1970's and called it a "Micro". I took about two feet out of two damaged written off Minis welded together. It was a lovely very little car that got a lot of attention, two seats only, effectively sitting in the original back seat position. No braking or other hassles, short enough to park nose to the curb between normal cars.