There was definitely time for 13 dwarves in those 3 massive movies, they just gave that time to Bard, Legolas, Thranduil, Azog, Tauriel, Bolg, Radagast, Brads family, the white council, Sauron and fucking Alfrid. All of which are either not in the book or not big characters in the book and thus didn't need all the fucking screen time. If you think about the amount of characters they manged to flesh out in the LOTR movies then it shouldn't be too much of a leap to get 13 dwarves down.
I think Thranduil and Bard's family were fair expansions even if the execution in the movies wasn't great. The former does have a key role in the book even if it's smaller so expanding him fleshes out the story and Bard's family probably shouldn factor more into how he acts if he's gonna be more prominent than he was. The rest are all unforgivable, Gandalf and Legolas's subplots are so fucking dire in those later two movies
@@isabelnoyer5893 My best friend and I still watch the movies at least twice a year to thirst (also because of many other aspects, but let's be honest, who doesn't like to look at pretty people)
The dwarves are somewhat forgettable in the trilogy because they become greatly overshadowed by all the studio additions. When MGM and Warner Bros wanted three movies, they pushed Peter Jackson to add several side plots to make it feel like The Lord of the Rings. Also, as you said, The Hobbit is mostly about Bilbo Baggins, but the studios pushed the movies to focus on other "action" characters. Therefore, Thorin's company gets overlooked and forgotten. And it's a real shame because they are all great in An Unexpected Journey when the trilogy feels the most like the book. The opening dinner scene in Bag End conveys all of the dwarves' character traits and gives the viewer an understanding of the group our protagonist is accompanying. However, this slowly dissipates as the trilogy transpires. I like the dwarves in The Hobbit trilogy, and it's sad about what happened to them. The actor that played the dwarf Oin, John Callen, after reading the script of The Desolation of Smaug movie was disappointed with the direction the trilogy was going. Afterward, he then told the other dwarf actors while on their break, "These movies aren't about us anymore..." This is the reason I watch the M4 Hobbit Book Edit instead of the trilogy. This edit focuses on Bilbo and the company, which gives the viewer much more of a connection with them.
I'm not completely sure I can agree with that. I think they did their best to make all the dwarves actual characters. If there's one criticism I would give about the original book, it's that there's too many dwarves and only a couple of them are actual characters.
John Rhys-Davies *looked* like a Dwarf. He had the voice of a Dwarf and the demeanor of a Dwarf. Throughout all of the Hobbit films I could never shake that uncanny impression of watching a bunch of cosplayers in Dwarf costumes.
I thought they got it mostly right but the bad was really bad and they were important: Great: Balin, Dwalin, Gloin, Oin, Bifur, Bombur, Dori, Nori: Ok: Ori, Fili (as young dwarves) Bad: Kili, Thorin, Bofur (just needed a nose and longer beard or a fu manchu mustache)
There's something about the costuming, effects, and overall ambiance of the LotR movies that's far more realistic and believable than whatever the Hobbit was going for
One of my absolute favorite details of Gimli's costume is the flower design at the crest of his helmet. It definitely makes me think that the costume designers were taking inspiration from the relationship between Gimli and Galadriel. I have no proof of this, but it's my head cannon 😅
John Rhys-Davies was not allergic to the prosthetics, though that’s a lot easier to explain so I understand why they went with that. He explained in an interview (which I linked in a.comment on another one of your videos) what actually happened: the glue they used for the prosthetics rips a thin layer of skin off when it’s removed. That’s fine for occasional use, but after doing this for several days in a row, he had no skin around the eyes and therefore they had nothing to attach his prosthetics to. It was so bad hegot extremely self conscious and therefore barely socialised with the rest of the cast. Despite this he thinks it was worth it for the film and does not regret it.
Yeah. Any talk of inflammation, skin weeping or other irritations is passed off as allergy, rather than the inevitable cumulative result of using the harsh adhesive on the face across many consecutive months. I'm fairly certain some of the long-serving background and stunt performers for dwarves, orcs etc. had similar issues, although perhaps to a lesser extent.
Dwarven runes look like Futhark, which is ancient Germanic/Skandinavian/ Anglo Saxon runes. These runes were angular because they were meant to be carved into trees with a knife. I think dwarves has much the same constraints. Their runes has to be written with chisels in stone-so straight lines and simple angles.
Jess, i am OBSESSED with your make-up, speaking of all this costume talk. Helps keep my little ADHD brain focused on long-form videos. *chef's kiss* Thank you for expanding all my tolkien knowledge.
I know! I was like ... what is she even talking about? Indeed, a search shows images, and RUclips has the scene where he loses the axe, and tons of comments question if he had it there the entire time.
It’s just odd that they took a race renowned for its smithing prowess and said to themselves “Shall we give them cool armour? Nah, let’s go leather and furs…”
Tbf, the book doesn't really specify armour, and comes off as depicting the dwarves more like the Snow White variety It's only with LoTR/Silmarilion that Dwarves are really given their Tolkien lore
@@johngreen9825Yes, if I remember correctly, they made them equip all the heavy armor while sitting inside Erebor, then charge out into battle without it.
@@SereglothIV They are all (Thorin aside) wearing pretty hefty armour and weapons in the battle of 5 armies. Much more than they were before. So for me the poor scraps they relatively speaking had makes sense.
Honestly my only problem with most of the costume design, was that most of the dwarves had really really small beards. So many of the dwarves look like beardlings who were just born yesterday and it makes me sad.
Little ways to tell the Dwarves apart in the books: Dwalin's blue beard, Fili has a longer nose than his brother, Bomber is fat! Ori wears grey, Oin wears brown, Gloin wears white, etc., Thorin has a silver tassel attached to his hood, and a gold chain necklace. There's a bunch of little ways in the books to tell the Dwarves apart. It would have been nice to see some of these things carry over into the movies. P.S. In the book, Gloin puts to word his doubts about Bilbo and Gandalf basically tells him to do as he says or "go back to mining coal," which basically tells us that Gloin was a coal miner. I don't see why they couldn't build his costume around that.
I thought it happened at a wild party when all the dwarves got extremely pissed drunk and decided to light their farts. Eyebrows go missing in stranger ways...yet beards remain intact as though protected by some higher force...yeah! it was Smaug, blame it on the Dragon!
Not only was this a great video, but man I love the small touch of how you style yourself to match your videos. The "necklace of diamonds" the gold accents in your hair, your loose braids, the touch of gold on your lipstick and eye shadow, etc. If I didn't know any better I'd say you, yourself are a costume designer. Your presentation style is great- detailed and informative, yet short and sweet. My only real complaint is that at a couple points your music gets a tad loud, but in your newer videos you seem to have addressed this. Keep up the great work, and I'm glad your channel had this recent explosion! Also, side note, an inside joke that my family has is that "canonically Bumbur FUCKS" lol. Nothing more fun to say when you're drunk at someone else's wedding and get on the subject of the Hobbit. 😅
Here’s what blows my mind: The book dwarves are MORE visually distinct than the movies, like the forks and blue dyed beards. They were so vivid and cool. Why ignore that?
I definitely agree with everything here. One of the problems I immediately had the Hobbit movies was how the dwarves didn’t seem as Dwarven as they should have. Didn’t LOOK as Dwarven as they should have. I felt like PJ was trying to do LOTR again, but The Hobbit isn’t that, it shouldn’t be that, and I actually treat the Hobbit movies the same way I do post-Lucas Star Wars: occasionally fun but not canon.
This is great timing! I finally watched all the hobbit movies this week. I was a little taken aback at first at the appearance of the dwarves- they just seemed so comical. But I ended up enjoying the movies more than I expected to. I love hearing your analysis, as always!
I'm so glad you enjoyed the movies! As long as you go into them with a bit of an open mind and an understanding that they won't be up to the caliber of LotR, they can honestly be very enjoyable. Thank you so much for watching!
@@Jess_of_the_Shire It took me a long time to rewatch after the unforgivable sin of making a love story between an elf and dwarf. Still mad about that but I like the rest more now.
I love the books, I love the Hobbit movies. They are different mediums, and I get it. I actually was more upset that they *included* the Rock Giants from the books in the Hobbit movies, than I was that they *excluded* Tom Bombadil from LOTR. However, they both brought books that I love to life on screen for me to enjoy, and did a wonderful job of that, so I'm not really going to complain about a quibble here or there. With the sunglasses, Bombur looks a little bit like Dr. Robotnik from Sonic the Hedgehog.
I think that with so many dwarves, they should have centralized more around the rhyming names and made each group a representative style. I know they did something like this, but they needed stark color or stylistic choices to make each group of dwarves different. That way, you’d know even if you didn’t know the dwarf that you’d know the character. For instance-Bifur, Bofur, and Bombur are the late, sloppy, gluttonous dwarves. Their dress is all fine but messy, shabby chic because they care more about experience than propriety. Will completely leave a hiding spot for food or other dainties. Dori, Nori, and poor Ori are the bardic lore smiths, so they have instruments like their flutes or a large tome instead of packed gear. They are shy but performative and will favor running away to save their instruments and books than fighting. Each group should have its own vibe, so that they don’t get lost on the screen. I had no idea Dori was even in the films for so little screen time as he got. More differentiation would have been better.
The brief scene featuring Billy Connolly, assertively arriving as Dain of the Iron Hills, mounted on a serious looking War Boar, may well have been the best extra-canonical elaboration in the third Hobbit film - still makes me smile.
oh that's actually an interesting concept! older people in reality can often become more pronounced and almost comical as they age and their noses get like they do. so this might just be pretty valid. I know this is an older comment to reply to just wanted to say your comment got me thinking and made me smile!
I watched the hobbit movies once and only once. When the 3rd had Fili and Kili along with the elf in Lake Town and the rest of Thorin and Company watching Lake Town burn from the Lonely Mountain, it was far too much for me. And the fact that the movies were less about Bilbo than it should have been. They made one book into a trilogy and yet left out so much. As painful as it is to remember the movies, it's still a delight to watch you.
Thanks so much for putting my own feelings about the Hobbit trilogy's dwarves & their character design into actual words! And holy wow what a lovely and completely unexpected appearance of Lakmé's Flower Duet... **shiftyeyes** 😉
By the time we get to Jackson's LOTR and his Hobbit trilogy the dwarf aesthetic had been pretty well established. Several popular properties (D&D and Warhammer for exampe) which took inspiration from Tolkien built upon, borrowed and drove home Dwarf tech, architecture and style.
Wow...just wow. I knew that they put a lot of thought into these kinds of things. But i didnt know. One thing ive noticed that really emphasizes your points is that in the new 4k edition you can really see a lot of these details. This means the makers did all of this work believing that it would never be seen on camera. Very impressive.
Well, there are a few more descriptions of dwarves (Gimli). From The Ring goes South: Gimli the dwarf alone wore openly a short shirt of steel-rings, for dwarves make light of burdens; and in his belt was a broad-bladed axe. From The Road to Isengard: There came Gamling the Old, and Éomer son of Éomund, and beside them walked Gimli the dwarf. He had no helm, and about his head was a linen band stained with blood; but his voice was loud and strong. (So we can assume that Gimlii usually bore a helmet).
Considering that Tolkien provided very little physical descriptions let alone varied personalities for the dwarves in The Hobbit, I thought that the makeup and costuming did a wonderful job trying to make each dwarf stand out.
Remember they are refuges in this story, and before Thorin collected them they were living in various places. I wouldn't expect them all to be dressed alike.
@@mikespangler98 They're not refugees in the book. Exiles from Erebor, yes, but Thorin has his own splendid halls in the Blue Mountains where he and the rest of Durin's Folk lived in relative prosperity.
I heard John Rhys Davis didn't want to get a tattoo, not because he wasn't asked but because he doesn't want any ink. It's sweet that his stunt double got one instead!
As someone who has just written a stageplay of The Hobbit (yes, it's officially approved), I did this - lowered the number of dwarves. It may not have been possible to do in the same way on screen, but the main problem with the dwarves is that you have to make them into memorable characters. Their seperate entrances alone could have been given much more love, just as an example. There is definitely time in a nine hour story to establish your main characters, even if they are fifteen people in the company.
The more I think about it, the more I think the Hobbit should have been the TV series. The amount of characters and the episodic nature of the adventure really lends itself to that medium, where certain episodes could give each character a bit of the spotlight. Idk, my thoughts on the hobbit trilogy are complicated and unresolved. Ignore my rambling lol. Great video though! I really appreciate when someone can go into such detail about how something as simple as a characters clothing in a book actually has a huge amount of complexity in a visual medium. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
The Hobbit trilogy gets a lot of criticism, and a lot of it isn't unfounded. However, if there is one good thing the trilogy brought us, it was Lee Pace's portryal of Thranduil. I loved how the filmmakers created a solid character from Tolkien's somehwat elusive description of "the Elvenking." Earlier depictions of him, such as in the 1977 animated adaptation, portray Thranduil as a more ghastly, almost beast-like character. To me, that portrayal feels a lot more true to the books in the sense that Thranduil is less of an elf, or character for that matter, and more of a grand, domineering presence. From the perspective of Bilbo, and even the Dwarves, he is wild, mysterious, and more than a little hostile. Despite not being completely "book-accurate," I enjoy Lee Pace's portrayal of the Elvenking. He carries the elegance and quiet grace of the elves in the earlier movies, and yet he is in a league of his own. In truth, when I think of standout depictions of Tolkien's elves, I think of Lee Pace's Thranduil. He has this condescending eeriness about him----a sort of tacit "I stand above you. Get out of my way, mortal, or there shall be consquences." With this combined with his jawdropping looks in the movies, it's pretty clear why he has so many people thirsting after him. That elf took the internet by storm in tumblr's heydey, and I still come across art and fanfiction of him from time to time. Even if the individual dwarves didn't seem to make a significant impact on the fandom or the genre of fantasy at large, I feel like the Thranduil of the Jackson movies will always stand alongside, and perhaps even above, the ethereal Galadriel and regal Elrond when it comes to cultivating a distinct archetype for one of Tolkien's characters. And that in itself is quite an achievement.
I agree! Tranquil was certainly a standout! They definitely had to come up with something more in line with Peter Jackson's other works for the character to fit in a world building sense. And his performance and costume are to die for! He's so terrifying in a disconnected, otherworldly way, especially compared to the dwarves.
I was with until you said Lee Pece's thraduil could be above Kate Blanchet's Galadriel. I agree he made a stellar performance and the whole production team made him look iconic but Kate Blanchet's performance as Galadriel is nothing short of Perfection. You could say the are equals but above? It is simply not possible to be above Perfection.
Tolkien really didn't give filmmakers a lot to go on as far as dwarf design. Descriptions are vague, at best. However... The biggest piece of information we have on dwarves, aside from their stature, is their beards. Their long, flowing beards. Beards they have been growing their entire lives. A good portion of the dwarves in LotR and The Hobbit are of Durin's lineage. The Longbeards they were called. Thorin, Kili, and Fili were definitely Durin's folk. Longbeards. Who don't actually have long beards in the films. One of the absolutely key defining features of the race of dwarves, and Jackson just ignored it. It would be like if he decided to make hobbits 6 feet tall. "But Peter, they're called 'halflings!'" "Yeah, I know. But half of what, hmmm? Didn't think of that, did you?"
The head axe tug of war scene is one of my favorite scenes in The Hobbit trilogy not only for its comedy but because it’s the first time we hear both Bifur and Bomber speak (in English )
[Finally got around to finishing it] -- yeah, great video. Saying they hold a very "specific" place in your heart -- yup. I remember expecting disappointment, I remember being horrified when I first heard they'd split The Hobbit into three movies... you make the behind-the-scenes footage sound more interesting than the films were. That said, I always loved the costumes, I thought PJ & crew were clearly great at visually representing pretty much every character in all the movies (except Smaug who I swear goes from being like 250ft long when Bilbo first sees him to maybe 60ft when he crashes into the water -- like what the hell), and the dwarves always stood out especially to me. My biggest dwarf-related complaint -- and it is a *very big* one to me -- is turning Gimli in LOTR into the comedic relief character, making him seem doubly ridiculous next to his buddy, the unnecessarily, absurdly, over-powererdly badass Legolas. I think back to the books, then think back to the movies at Helm's Deep, they do their little contest of who kills more orcs, and when Gimli "wins" by 1, you simply can't find it believable, since they'd allowed for such polar opposites in apparent fighting ability of the two. Oof, having Gimli be such a joke ("nobody tosses a dwarf!" in NZ where there's a weird pub tradition of... "dwarf-tossing", oh lord)... was almost as much of a crime as having Gandalf simply choose to let go and fall off the Bridge, instead of being actually dragged down like he was in the book... FFS PJ, I wish I could have been there as you made the movie just to yell at you, "what the hell are you doing?!?!" I can't even get angry at the Hobbit movies because they felt like the production was so rushed, like they weren't even trying on a lot of the stuff... although obviously they were.
I have ways thought gimli and aragorn have the two best costumes in the trilogy because of one factor, subtlety. When I think of gimli's costume, I think bulky, heavy armor, tank like you say. But if I were to draw his costume from my mind's eye, it would look nothing like the in movie costume. He has that bulky heavy armor look but it's very subtle leaving it to a beautifully crafted helmet and some intricate shoulder guards. The same goes for aragorn. The archetype of a ranger. You think aragorn you think, cool, brooding, hood, mysterious, green, ranger. But in actuality his costume is not simple but very subtle and understated. Being a leather duster over layers of torn linen. It's fantastic. I think cosplayers greatest mistake is often not being subtle enough and going far to colorful and overstating everything. As far as the dwarven costumes for the hobbit, I think there close to horrible. 13 gimli-esque costumes would have been much better. Told apart by color and armor pieces, as well as hair color rather then these crazy hair styles.
I see where you're coming from, and subtlety is definitely the key, but I think that PJ was probably trying to integrate some of the more "cartoonish" elements of the hobbit. It may have misfired a bit though haha
I liked the variation in the costumes especially for bombur, gloin, dwalin and dori. Fili looked like a young dwarf but kili and thorin looked too human
Fun watch and I liked the breakdown of the culture of the Dwarves and the exploration of their different costumes. I like how much thought went into a lot of their designs but you are right, some of them just don't work or get swallowed up by the fact that they tried to make everyone feel that more important than they needed to be. I still find the movies very charming and I love the relationship shown on screen between Bilbo, Thorin, Balin and Bofur - but, it just doesn't work in the whole which is a real shame because I love The Hobbit. A tale for another video as you say. It's fascinating that you mention Thorin's eyebrows as when you look at some of the early posters released for the films, his eyebrows are pretty wild and he looks like a Klingon rather than a Dwarf! I guess that might have played a factor in the changes as well. I am a big fan of Dwarves and the stories about them in Middle-earth (and Norse Mythology) so having a video exploring them like this was a lot of fun. Great watch as always.
I still certainly find the dwarves delightful! Even with their issues, the performances really make them a lot of fun. You can tell a lot of love went into it. And apparently they were switching up Thorin's look a ton, including having to reshoot bag-end material because they changed his makeup. So maybe the eyebrows were a reaction to previous attempts... Thanks for watching!
My criticism is just one word: whimsy. They injected goofiness that doesn't belong. If they were trying to "be kid-friendly in the spirit of the book," they wouldn't have milked it for all it was worth and made it an epic . . . like butter scraped over too much bread.
I first saw one of your videos a week ago and have been binge watching them since. Even videos that didn't seem like they would THAT interesting, like this one, have kept me entertaintained throughout. Your amount of research and passion for the subject is enviable. As I a side note, I don't know if you do your own make-up but it is always on point.
Onte thing that bothers mw wit the "how can we tell them apart, they are so alike" is that basically every war-movie can pull that off without probplem. I just thinkt that wera a lazy excuse from the production team. Also, Bofur and Bombur are brothers, but Bifur is their cousin. I always forget that until i reread the book.
The Dwarves are among my favorites. Not only are they unique, but they're also much more down-to-earth and relatable than the Elves and Men, in my opinion, probably because they were only really developed in Bilbo's story. Technically, aren't the Ents probably more unique, however? Shouldn't the Dwarves have rather similar armor to the Men of the North? I mean, Thorin once remarks, "Fathers would beg us to take their sons as apprentices, and pay us handsomely, especially in food-supplies, which we never bothered to grow or find for ourselves", and from The Peoples of Middle-Earth, we get the impression their economy relies heavily on trade. As for historical parallels, wouldn't the best ones typically be either Viking or ancient Hebrew armor? Those seem to be Tolkien's two inspirations, anyway. I would still argue it would be far more accurate to the book if they had given Bombur Bofur's role, as he is actually more or less the "nice & funny" Dwarf in the book (his conversation with Bilbo in "A Knife in the Dark" is one of my favorite scenes, but fair enough. Thank you for the video. I sometimes wonder if it would have been better to cast someone who is actually the height of a Dwarf, as that might help differentiate Gimli from the Hobbits with different proportions and be easier anyway for the filmmakers when Gimli was mostly with Men and Elves.
Hey! Thanks a lot for that video! I am trying to create a "new face" for my dwarven costume for a LARP game and your video brings me inspiration and a north about where to focus to makes my dwarf be more like a fantasy dwarf :D that is awesome :D
I like Oin and Gloin since they have the most "classic" feeling designs. This maybe has more to do with their prosthetics and hair than outfits, but they just seem like something you would see in more Tolkien-inspired D&D art. I do also like Thorin's design a lot. Could use more beard but even as it is it is one of my favorites of the bunch.
I always felt Peter Jackson's Dwarves in the Hobbit movies were very Heavy Metal Rocker. And I did love the Dwarf shield wall assembly during the battle of the five armies: the look, the sound, and their lego brick modularity was a scream. For the sake of civility amd focus on your content, I am withholding obvious criticism on the movies themselves. I did love the dwarves, single note as they were.
while I get people want to see the dwarves in The Hobbit in armour, you gotta remember that the dwarves weren't all that rich at the time. And let's be honest, going on a hike to the other side of the continent that involves climbing mountains and what not probably isn't made any easier by being toe to toe clad in steel
I don't know what the hell is wrong with the Hobbit movies, but I saw them all (one in cinema in 48p) and I've never noticed Bifur had an axe in his head lol
Very true about the "complications" inevitable from over-investment in dwarven presence. Bilbo's protagonist perspective in the story is a lot like "Rosencranz and Guildenstern's" perspective from that movie. He has his own unique experiences, only reluctantly gets involved in the first place, and is often at odds w events around him or his place in it- enough that everyone's intentionality is treated w skepticism. By over-emphasizing the dwarves it's like telling the "Rosencranz and Guildenstern" story from Hamlet's perspective... which... is just "Hamlet." As much as I like the dwarves and would like a movie where they and their culture are front and center (like a film adaptation of a casteless dwarf from "Dragon Age Origins,") Bilbo's journey and personality are the backbone of "The Hobbit..." making the film adaptation "Brokeback Misty Mountain"? Anyway, yes, it sorely misses the essential narrative due to Jackson's LotR-giddy self-indulgence, not seeing the Fangorn Forest for the trees...
Super informative and i completely understand your opinions on the lack of full personality for the dwarven company! Very good video once again :) also your outfit and makeup is beautiful!!!
I've just started watching a few of your videos and I just realized this one in the background on your bookshelf. You have a memorial edition of Dune which is my absolutely favored book of all time and I have one too.
Tolkien's dwarves have been hard done by the Peter Jackson era. As we look back on beardless dwarves it is important to note that when the movies were made there was still a strong societal prejudice against beards, at least if one was wanting to be deemed attractive to the fairer sex. While there was strong acceptance in a number of subcultures it was considered a detriment outside. Jackson's Hobbit movies were made explicitly to make money from mainstream audience goers and therefore had to also appeal to conventional notions of attractiveness to aid engagement with female viewers, this also being the reason why Legolas was so popular with younger females during the LotR years. The cash-cow nature of the Hobbit trilogy actually hampers the display of Dwarf culture because suddenly you are trying to differentiate each dwarf, and highlighting differences rather than showing commonality. Not every group needs the Power Ranger or United Colors of Benetton treatment. I think it's important to remember that Bilbo (who's recollection from the Red Book we are following here) starts of as an outsider. It takes time to remember all the idiosyncrasies when you join a group, so having most of them wear similar beards, and wearing similar suits of armour would actually be more fitting. One aspect of culture that was missed that could have really been used over the long term to differentiate each dwarf is with the accessories. Even a poor dwarf is only poor by comparison. They all love to make things, especially with metal. A goldsmith might be poor compared to other goldsmiths but still wears gold. Where were the precious metal accessories? The hair/beard rings, the finger rings, bracers and bracelets? Whalebone hair combs bought in trade from elves? A number of them were described with gold and silver belts and chains, but there also isn't any reason why that couldn't have been extended further.
Dean O'Gorman was doing a show (the Almighty Johnson's) at the when they were filming so his character would disappear for awhile but they would make some fun jokes and references. miss that show.
I prefer the art deco architecture we see in the dwarvish mountain kingdoms, over the art nouveau fashion aspects of the elves. The jewelry and accessories of both are on par in my opinion. But it's frustrating to me that overwhelmingly we see dwarves in armor.....humans, elves and hobbits we see in many facets of life. Although Hobbits had to borrow their armor... Also the scenery/locales of the elven kindoms are beautiful and I love how they are very interconnected with nature by blurring boundaries between inside and outside...
Hmmm, I've got hundreds of different subscriptions, haven't really been watching anything Tolkien-related, but for some reason RUclips decided to recommend this video. It's always so strange when YT decides to bless people with recommendations... I figured this was gonna be a brand new channel paying to advertise, but nope, you've got quite a lot of videos out. I will definitely have to look around. Very nice.
Seeing the animated hobbit movie when I was a very young child definitely shaped my love of fantasy and lotr today, tho I had no idea the impact it had until I was an adult.
I would love to watch that video with your complete ranking of all of LOTR costumes soooo badly...!!! Please please do give that video a chance - it's a fabulous idea! :)
I found it astonishing how Peter Jackson managed to make a trilogy like the Lord of the Rings that I'd show my kids and probably their kids, like my Dad did with the original Star Wars trilogy, then make a trilogy I pretend doesn't exist. The most memorable dwarf in the whole trilogy was Dain Ironfoot in a trilogy filled with dwarves and tiny men pretending to be dwarves. He was in it for like 10 minutes or something? Surely a feat but I doubt it was the feat they were hoping for although it just seemed like they winged the whole thing so maybe its not surprising. Luckily Rings of Power is a thing so at least its not the worst live action return to middle earth which is not a very high bar to beat though. What a disgrace that was.
Dain was awesome, though I will always hate the cartoony scottish accent media seems to love to give dwarfs. It would be more nordic in accent than Scottish.
We all know the reason for that - corporate meddling and short deadlines. Del Toro was originally lined up to direct. He bailed last minute and Jackson reluctantly took the helm. Things were already in motion and it gave Jackson very little time to actually plan anything before deadlines were up. Add in the fact that WB were now much more voracious in demanding profits and firstly mandated a duology followed by a trilogy. This was because WB had no other franchises at the time earning them money - Harry Potter had finished, The Dark Knight had finished, and Fantastic Beasts and the DCEU were yet to begin. They remembered how popular LoTR was, and that was three movies. They wanted 3 Hobbit movies to keep the money rolling. Lightning didn't strike twice. *That* is how you get The Hobbit trilogy.
I actually loved the dwarves of The Hobbit, but maybe because I feel nostalgic watching it, no matter how bad it is lol (and I genuinely love Richard Armitage as Thorin, he put so much work in his role!) But yeah, it would've been better to make a simple yet perfectly complete movie instead of 3 movies. Jackson himself was reluctant and was pressed to complete everything too quickly. I also read somewhere that he probably didn't feel much connection to the project as much as with LOTR, which is, in fact, his biggest masterpiece
@@forg_m6424 I didn't mind the acting as much as just the look of em. He did a great job acting but just sucks you out of the immersion with him just being a short guy with no dwarven features.
I believe that, ultimately, Peter Jackson and Co. did fail to create full characters for the dwarves, but like you said this trilogy was named after Bilbo, a Hobbit. They probably should have done a little more work for each dwarves character, but keeping them gimmicky was the right move because there was no way we would get around to anything more than surface level with 13 characters. I will say, I wish Bilbo’s friendship with Thorin was leaned into more.
Girl, for dwarves you have also the whole Silmarillion and other JRRT books. And as the dwarven culture is from that can be read as highly traditional, there is no need to think it changed too much from the First to the Third Age. Also, as to dwarf stature, thumb up for Gimli in LOTR and down for that vagabonds in The Hobbit.
I would love to see an alternative universe movie trilogy where they stick to that fantasy adventure comedy thing and develop the dwarves more deeply, forgetting about the Lake Town and Tauriel
I like your comments they are very observant and somtimes sarcastic but you say them in such an innocent manner that they are never offensive. I agree with you about the Hobbit how did Peter Jackson milk 3 movies out of the tiny Hobbit novel?
I cannot express how much I don't care that the original story was supposed to be a light children's story all about Bilbo. No matter who the title character is the story is of a DWARVEN quest with great emotional, even existential significance to them that ends in a goddamn tragedy. The fate of Erebor may not be as directly important as that of the ring, but it's but it plays a key part in the northern realms' security so reclaiming it, and further defending it from, the forces of evil is of just as much geopolitical importance as say, Helm's Deep. The fact that book treats every other characters like mere set dressing in it's main character's "fun" adventure, that it breezes through harrowing situations and important world events with so little consideration that even the character that's supposed to matter can just shrug it off at the end so easily that frankly he seems like a sociopath, are not simply acceptable intrinsic traits of the story, they are FLAWS in it.
Once again, a great thoroughly researched video on a topic which I think is rarely talked about, especially in such detail. It doesn't, it the slightest, make me detest the Hobbit trilogy any less, but it's very entertaining 😁 It actually highlights my impression that they pretty much disrespected the whole Dwarven race by turning most of them into gags and did the actors dirty by focusing on the comic aspects even in the visual realm instead of letting them just...you know, act. And bring some unique personality traits into their characters. Looking forward to watching the rest of this series!
If Thorin’s beard was meant to be singed off where was it before Smaug cuz I don’t remember it being any longer. 🤔 Also, does the behind the scenes say why Jackson decided to switch Balín & Thorin’s ages since he was the oldest in the book? At least I think so, but I haven’t read it in so long I could be mistaken.
Tolkien’s life experience of lif coloured it . The dwarves are the miners of Wales, the West Midlands and Cornwall. Short, wide ,kind and as brave and tough as you really wouldn’t want to meet on the field of battle!🏴
The thing about the dwarves' design that I found to be most annoying was that they basically dropped all the descriptions that Tolkien actually did give them, most importantly the damn colors!
Not really though ? The vast majority of the dwarves in the movies wear clothes with a color scheme identical to the colors of their hoods in the book. Balin has red clothes, Dwalin has green, Dori and Ori have shades of purple, Nori wears grey etc... exceptions are Bifur's rust tones to differenciate him from Bofur's mustard yellow, Fili's browns and Gloin's dark red instead of white
![Twenty One Pilots - The Line (from Arcane Season 2) [Official Audio]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/XCz7WUotXs8/mqdefault.jpg)
Thorin's eye-brows were given to Thranduil.
Incredible observation
😂
💀
Poor Thorin had to sell them.
@@ParameterGrenze Eyebrow poker?...raise me an eyebrow...no not raze!!!
There was definitely time for 13 dwarves in those 3 massive movies, they just gave that time to Bard, Legolas, Thranduil, Azog, Tauriel, Bolg, Radagast, Brads family, the white council, Sauron and fucking Alfrid. All of which are either not in the book or not big characters in the book and thus didn't need all the fucking screen time. If you think about the amount of characters they manged to flesh out in the LOTR movies then it shouldn't be too much of a leap to get 13 dwarves down.
...that's what Bilbo Baggins hates!
Don't bunch together Bard and fucking Alfrid, come on.
I think Thranduil and Bard's family were fair expansions even if the execution in the movies wasn't great. The former does have a key role in the book even if it's smaller so expanding him fleshes out the story and Bard's family probably shouldn factor more into how he acts if he's gonna be more prominent than he was.
The rest are all unforgivable, Gandalf and Legolas's subplots are so fucking dire in those later two movies
Who at the studio really thought the fans would say “I wasn’t gonna see that Hobbit movie, but now that I know three of the dwarves are hot-!!!”
To be completely frank, I only watch The Hobbit's trilogy to thirst over Thorin. Not proud of this, but there you go... 😅
@@isabelnoyer5893 i stand corrected then!
@@isabelnoyer5893 My best friend and I still watch the movies at least twice a year to thirst (also because of many other aspects, but let's be honest, who doesn't like to look at pretty people)
women obviously
Jeffry Epstein
The dwarves are somewhat forgettable in the trilogy because they become greatly overshadowed by all the studio additions. When MGM and Warner Bros wanted three movies, they pushed Peter Jackson to add several side plots to make it feel like The Lord of the Rings. Also, as you said, The Hobbit is mostly about Bilbo Baggins, but the studios pushed the movies to focus on other "action" characters. Therefore, Thorin's company gets overlooked and forgotten. And it's a real shame because they are all great in An Unexpected Journey when the trilogy feels the most like the book. The opening dinner scene in Bag End conveys all of the dwarves' character traits and gives the viewer an understanding of the group our protagonist is accompanying. However, this slowly dissipates as the trilogy transpires. I like the dwarves in The Hobbit trilogy, and it's sad about what happened to them. The actor that played the dwarf Oin, John Callen, after reading the script of The Desolation of Smaug movie was disappointed with the direction the trilogy was going. Afterward, he then told the other dwarf actors while on their break, "These movies aren't about us anymore..." This is the reason I watch the M4 Hobbit Book Edit instead of the trilogy. This edit focuses on Bilbo and the company, which gives the viewer much more of a connection with them.
if you don't mind me asking, what is the edit and where can i watch it??
@@alice5790 M4 has a webpage for his Hobbit edit. It's the first search result if you google the title of the fan edit. Good luck!
Where could i watch that edit?
I'm not completely sure I can agree with that. I think they did their best to make all the dwarves actual characters. If there's one criticism I would give about the original book, it's that there's too many dwarves and only a couple of them are actual characters.
Watch the m4 edit
John Rhys-Davies *looked* like a Dwarf. He had the voice of a Dwarf and the demeanor of a Dwarf. Throughout all of the Hobbit films I could never shake that uncanny impression of watching a bunch of cosplayers in Dwarf costumes.
I thought they got it mostly right but the bad was really bad and they were important: Great: Balin, Dwalin, Gloin, Oin, Bifur, Bombur, Dori, Nori: Ok: Ori, Fili (as young dwarves) Bad: Kili, Thorin, Bofur (just needed a nose and longer beard or a fu manchu mustache)
There's something about the costuming, effects, and overall ambiance of the LotR movies that's far more realistic and believable than whatever the Hobbit was going for
One of my absolute favorite details of Gimli's costume is the flower design at the crest of his helmet. It definitely makes me think that the costume designers were taking inspiration from the relationship between Gimli and Galadriel. I have no proof of this, but it's my head cannon 😅
Oh I hadn't noticed that, great catch! And who knows, maybe it was a connection to Galadriel. That would be super neat
I'm not sure if it is supposed to be a flower or a star.
"With a bit of elbow grease"
"Best I can do is talcum sweat"
John Rhys-Davies was not allergic to the prosthetics, though that’s a lot easier to explain so I understand why they went with that. He explained in an interview (which I linked in a.comment on another one of your videos) what actually happened: the glue they used for the prosthetics rips a thin layer of skin off when it’s removed. That’s fine for occasional use, but after doing this for several days in a row, he had no skin around the eyes and therefore they had nothing to attach his prosthetics to. It was so bad hegot extremely self conscious and therefore barely socialised with the rest of the cast. Despite this he thinks it was worth it for the film and does not regret it.
Not as bad as Tucker Smallwood who had such a bad reaction to eye makeup on Enterprise that he required corrective surgery.
Yeah. Any talk of inflammation, skin weeping or other irritations is passed off as allergy, rather than the inevitable cumulative result of using the harsh adhesive on the face across many consecutive months. I'm fairly certain some of the long-serving background and stunt performers for dwarves, orcs etc. had similar issues, although perhaps to a lesser extent.
Dwarves always suffer
I remember hearing the actors of the dwarves talking about their characters and thinking "damn. I wish this was the movvie we got"
Dwarven runes look like Futhark, which is ancient Germanic/Skandinavian/ Anglo Saxon runes. These runes were angular because they were meant to be carved into trees with a knife. I think dwarves has much the same constraints. Their runes has to be written with chisels in stone-so straight lines and simple angles.
Jess, i am OBSESSED with your make-up, speaking of all this costume talk. Helps keep my little ADHD brain focused on long-form videos. *chef's kiss* Thank you for expanding all my tolkien knowledge.
I've watched all three movies multiple times. How did I miss that one of the dwarves had an AXE in his head?!
I know! I was like ... what is she even talking about? Indeed, a search shows images, and RUclips has the scene where he loses the axe, and tons of comments question if he had it there the entire time.
I watched the first hobbit movie at least twice in the theater. I have no recollection of an axe in a head.
They gloss over it in the theatrical editions but point it out in the extended cut.
Survival instinct?
I learned that because of fanfiction!
The symbol for "Bluetooth" is the runic symbol for Harald Bluetooth the medieval king of Scandinavia. I like that.
Peter Jackson wanted to restore the honor and dignity of dwarves? Really wish he wanted that back in the lotr trilogy. Poor Gimli
It’s just odd that they took a race renowned for its smithing prowess and said to themselves “Shall we give them cool armour? Nah, let’s go leather and furs…”
Tbf, the book doesn't really specify armour, and comes off as depicting the dwarves more like the Snow White variety
It's only with LoTR/Silmarilion that Dwarves are really given their Tolkien lore
Well, dwalves exiled from their mountain were homeless, poor and lost. Thorin, the next king, had to do heavy labour to survive.
@@johngreen9825Yes, if I remember correctly, they made them equip all the heavy armor while sitting inside Erebor, then charge out into battle without it.
@@SereglothIV They are all (Thorin aside) wearing pretty hefty armour and weapons in the battle of 5 armies. Much more than they were before. So for me the poor scraps they relatively speaking had makes sense.
I mean… in the beginning of the story they were dressed for travelling through Woods and mountains over days and weeks not for battle.
Honestly my only problem with most of the costume design, was that most of the dwarves had really really small beards.
So many of the dwarves look like beardlings who were just born yesterday and it makes me sad.
Little ways to tell the Dwarves apart in the books: Dwalin's blue beard, Fili has a longer nose than his brother, Bomber is fat! Ori wears grey, Oin wears brown, Gloin wears white, etc., Thorin has a silver tassel attached to his hood, and a gold chain necklace. There's a bunch of little ways in the books to tell the Dwarves apart. It would have been nice to see some of these things carry over into the movies.
P.S. In the book, Gloin puts to word his doubts about Bilbo and Gandalf basically tells him to do as he says or "go back to mining coal," which basically tells us that Gloin was a coal miner. I don't see why they couldn't build his costume around that.
Thorin's eyebrows were burned off by Smaug and they never grew back... lol
That's an excellent point
I thought it happened at a wild party when all the dwarves got extremely pissed drunk and decided to light their farts. Eyebrows go missing in stranger ways...yet beards remain intact as though protected by some higher force...yeah! it was Smaug, blame it on the Dragon!
this is the most underrated comment. lol.
Bombur is also one of the most fleshed out dwarves in the book.
fleshed out. Hehe
I love Bombur so damn much
@@FennecTheRabbitalways a Bombur fan
Not only was this a great video, but man I love the small touch of how you style yourself to match your videos. The "necklace of diamonds" the gold accents in your hair, your loose braids, the touch of gold on your lipstick and eye shadow, etc. If I didn't know any better I'd say you, yourself are a costume designer. Your presentation style is great- detailed and informative, yet short and sweet. My only real complaint is that at a couple points your music gets a tad loud, but in your newer videos you seem to have addressed this. Keep up the great work, and I'm glad your channel had this recent explosion!
Also, side note, an inside joke that my family has is that "canonically Bumbur FUCKS" lol. Nothing more fun to say when you're drunk at someone else's wedding and get on the subject of the Hobbit. 😅
Here’s what blows my mind: The book dwarves are MORE visually distinct than the movies, like the forks and blue dyed beards. They were so vivid and cool. Why ignore that?
Loved the way the Dwarves were done in the films
I have watched the hobbit trilogy so many times I lose count...and I never knew bifur had an axe in his head! How?
I've actually heard that from a few people haha! I think it's very funny
Me, neither ‼️
I definitely agree with everything here. One of the problems I immediately had the Hobbit movies was how the dwarves didn’t seem as Dwarven as they should have. Didn’t LOOK as Dwarven as they should have.
I felt like PJ was trying to do LOTR again, but The Hobbit isn’t that, it shouldn’t be that, and I actually treat the Hobbit movies the same way I do post-Lucas Star Wars: occasionally fun but not canon.
This is great timing! I finally watched all the hobbit movies this week. I was a little taken aback at first at the appearance of the dwarves- they just seemed so comical. But I ended up enjoying the movies more than I expected to.
I love hearing your analysis, as always!
And yes!! They could have left Kili looking like a dwarf while still keeping him young and hot. Let him have a beard, and some braids, or SOMETHING!
@@mirafeather7844 He reminds me of the way Dopey looks in Disney's Snow White. But yes he could have looked more dwarf-like.
I'm so glad you enjoyed the movies! As long as you go into them with a bit of an open mind and an understanding that they won't be up to the caliber of LotR, they can honestly be very enjoyable. Thank you so much for watching!
@@Jess_of_the_Shire It took me a long time to rewatch after the unforgivable sin of making a love story between an elf and dwarf. Still mad about that but I like the rest more now.
I love the books, I love the Hobbit movies. They are different mediums, and I get it.
I actually was more upset that they *included* the Rock Giants from the books in the Hobbit movies, than I was that they *excluded* Tom Bombadil from LOTR.
However, they both brought books that I love to life on screen for me to enjoy, and did a wonderful job of that, so I'm not really going to complain about a quibble here or there.
With the sunglasses, Bombur looks a little bit like Dr. Robotnik from Sonic the Hedgehog.
I think that with so many dwarves, they should have centralized more around the rhyming names and made each group a representative style. I know they did something like this, but they needed stark color or stylistic choices to make each group of dwarves different. That way, you’d know even if you didn’t know the dwarf that you’d know the character. For instance-Bifur, Bofur, and Bombur are the late, sloppy, gluttonous dwarves. Their dress is all fine but messy, shabby chic because they care more about experience than propriety. Will completely leave a hiding spot for food or other dainties. Dori, Nori, and poor Ori are the bardic lore smiths, so they have instruments like their flutes or a large tome instead of packed gear. They are shy but performative and will favor running away to save their instruments and books than fighting. Each group should have its own vibe, so that they don’t get lost on the screen. I had no idea Dori was even in the films for so little screen time as he got. More differentiation would have been better.
As a hard core LOTR book and Hobbit book lover I gotta say I really enjoy your channel. Thank you
"A five-year-old cutting their own hair with craft scissors"
Oh, that brings back memories...
The brief scene featuring Billy Connolly, assertively arriving as Dain of the Iron Hills, mounted on a serious looking War Boar, may well have been the best extra-canonical elaboration in the third Hobbit film - still makes me smile.
It just looks to me like Dwarves start out like attractive humans when young, then gradually grow into cartoon characters as they age. Just weird.
Yeah, like. Where tf did Kili come from?
oh that's actually an interesting concept! older people in reality can often become more pronounced and almost comical as they age and their noses get like they do. so this might just be pretty valid.
I know this is an older comment to reply to just wanted to say your comment got me thinking and made me smile!
I watched the hobbit movies once and only once. When the 3rd had Fili and Kili along with the elf in Lake Town and the rest of Thorin and Company watching Lake Town burn from the Lonely Mountain, it was far too much for me. And the fact that the movies were less about Bilbo than it should have been. They made one book into a trilogy and yet left out so much.
As painful as it is to remember the movies, it's still a delight to watch you.
Thanks so much for putting my own feelings about the Hobbit trilogy's dwarves & their character design into actual words! And holy wow what a lovely and completely unexpected appearance of Lakmé's Flower Duet... **shiftyeyes** 😉
By the time we get to Jackson's LOTR and his Hobbit trilogy the dwarf aesthetic had been pretty well established. Several popular properties (D&D and Warhammer for exampe) which took inspiration from Tolkien built upon, borrowed and drove home Dwarf tech, architecture and style.
Wow...just wow.
I knew that they put a lot of thought into these kinds of things.
But i didnt know.
One thing ive noticed that really emphasizes your points is that in the new 4k edition you can really see a lot of these details. This means the makers did all of this work believing that it would never be seen on camera. Very impressive.
Well, there are a few more descriptions of dwarves (Gimli).
From The Ring goes South: Gimli the dwarf alone wore openly a short shirt of steel-rings, for dwarves make light of burdens; and in his belt was a broad-bladed axe.
From The Road to Isengard: There came Gamling the Old, and Éomer son of Éomund, and beside them walked Gimli the dwarf. He had no helm, and about his head was a linen band stained with blood; but his voice was loud and strong. (So we can assume that Gimlii usually bore a helmet).
Considering that Tolkien provided very little physical descriptions let alone varied personalities for the dwarves in The Hobbit, I thought that the makeup and costuming did a wonderful job trying to make each dwarf stand out.
Remember they are refuges in this story, and before Thorin collected them they were living in various places. I wouldn't expect them all to be dressed alike.
@@mikespangler98 They're not refugees in the book. Exiles from Erebor, yes, but Thorin has his own splendid halls in the Blue Mountains where he and the rest of Durin's Folk lived in relative prosperity.
I heard John Rhys Davis didn't want to get a tattoo, not because he wasn't asked but because he doesn't want any ink. It's sweet that his stunt double got one instead!
Yeah Fili and Thorin really made me sad
As someone who has just written a stageplay of The Hobbit (yes, it's officially approved), I did this - lowered the number of dwarves.
It may not have been possible to do in the same way on screen, but the main problem with the dwarves is that you have to make them into memorable characters. Their seperate entrances alone could have been given much more love, just as an example. There is definitely time in a nine hour story to establish your main characters, even if they are fifteen people in the company.
The more I think about it, the more I think the Hobbit should have been the TV series. The amount of characters and the episodic nature of the adventure really lends itself to that medium, where certain episodes could give each character a bit of the spotlight. Idk, my thoughts on the hobbit trilogy are complicated and unresolved. Ignore my rambling lol.
Great video though! I really appreciate when someone can go into such detail about how something as simple as a characters clothing in a book actually has a huge amount of complexity in a visual medium. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
A series would've been so much fun, and would have given them the room needed to explore the characters
The Hobbit trilogy gets a lot of criticism, and a lot of it isn't unfounded. However, if there is one good thing the trilogy brought us, it was Lee Pace's portryal of Thranduil. I loved how the filmmakers created a solid character from Tolkien's somehwat elusive description of "the Elvenking." Earlier depictions of him, such as in the 1977 animated adaptation, portray Thranduil as a more ghastly, almost beast-like character. To me, that portrayal feels a lot more true to the books in the sense that Thranduil is less of an elf, or character for that matter, and more of a grand, domineering presence. From the perspective of Bilbo, and even the Dwarves, he is wild, mysterious, and more than a little hostile. Despite not being completely "book-accurate," I enjoy Lee Pace's portrayal of the Elvenking. He carries the elegance and quiet grace of the elves in the earlier movies, and yet he is in a league of his own. In truth, when I think of standout depictions of Tolkien's elves, I think of Lee Pace's Thranduil. He has this condescending eeriness about him----a sort of tacit "I stand above you. Get out of my way, mortal, or there shall be consquences." With this combined with his jawdropping looks in the movies, it's pretty clear why he has so many people thirsting after him. That elf took the internet by storm in tumblr's heydey, and I still come across art and fanfiction of him from time to time. Even if the individual dwarves didn't seem to make a significant impact on the fandom or the genre of fantasy at large, I feel like the Thranduil of the Jackson movies will always stand alongside, and perhaps even above, the ethereal Galadriel and regal Elrond when it comes to cultivating a distinct archetype for one of Tolkien's characters. And that in itself is quite an achievement.
I agree! Tranquil was certainly a standout! They definitely had to come up with something more in line with Peter Jackson's other works for the character to fit in a world building sense. And his performance and costume are to die for! He's so terrifying in a disconnected, otherworldly way, especially compared to the dwarves.
I was with until you said Lee Pece's thraduil could be above Kate Blanchet's Galadriel. I agree he made a stellar performance and the whole production team made him look iconic but Kate Blanchet's performance as Galadriel is nothing short of Perfection. You could say the are equals but above? It is simply not possible to be above Perfection.
Tolkien really didn't give filmmakers a lot to go on as far as dwarf design. Descriptions are vague, at best.
However...
The biggest piece of information we have on dwarves, aside from their stature, is their beards. Their long, flowing beards. Beards they have been growing their entire lives. A good portion of the dwarves in LotR and The Hobbit are of Durin's lineage. The Longbeards they were called. Thorin, Kili, and Fili were definitely Durin's folk. Longbeards. Who don't actually have long beards in the films.
One of the absolutely key defining features of the race of dwarves, and Jackson just ignored it. It would be like if he decided to make hobbits 6 feet tall.
"But Peter, they're called 'halflings!'"
"Yeah, I know. But half of what, hmmm? Didn't think of that, did you?"
Fully agree. I can forgive everything except for the beards. They are called the Longbeards for a damn reason!
The head axe tug of war scene is one of my favorite scenes in The Hobbit trilogy not only for its comedy but because it’s the first time we hear both Bifur and Bomber speak (in English )
Thorin looks like he's a member of Korn.
I always thought he has a very Klingon flair to him. Not how i imagined dwarves at all.
I really think he looks like a more human Gowron.
@@Gothic_Analogue i‘m glad i‘m not the only one seeing that …
I never noticed that Thorin was basically eyebrow-less… I can never not see that now.
[Finally got around to finishing it] -- yeah, great video. Saying they hold a very "specific" place in your heart -- yup. I remember expecting disappointment, I remember being horrified when I first heard they'd split The Hobbit into three movies... you make the behind-the-scenes footage sound more interesting than the films were.
That said, I always loved the costumes, I thought PJ & crew were clearly great at visually representing pretty much every character in all the movies (except Smaug who I swear goes from being like 250ft long when Bilbo first sees him to maybe 60ft when he crashes into the water -- like what the hell), and the dwarves always stood out especially to me.
My biggest dwarf-related complaint -- and it is a *very big* one to me -- is turning Gimli in LOTR into the comedic relief character, making him seem doubly ridiculous next to his buddy, the unnecessarily, absurdly, over-powererdly badass Legolas.
I think back to the books, then think back to the movies at Helm's Deep, they do their little contest of who kills more orcs, and when Gimli "wins" by 1, you simply can't find it believable, since they'd allowed for such polar opposites in apparent fighting ability of the two.
Oof, having Gimli be such a joke ("nobody tosses a dwarf!" in NZ where there's a weird pub tradition of... "dwarf-tossing", oh lord)... was almost as much of a crime as having Gandalf simply choose to let go and fall off the Bridge, instead of being actually dragged down like he was in the book...
FFS PJ, I wish I could have been there as you made the movie just to yell at you, "what the hell are you doing?!?!"
I can't even get angry at the Hobbit movies because they felt like the production was so rushed, like they weren't even trying on a lot of the stuff... although obviously they were.
Balin is my fav of the movie dwarves, and hes the closest to a real Tolkien vision of them
What about Dain II and the dwarves of the Iron Hills?
I have ways thought gimli and aragorn have the two best costumes in the trilogy because of one factor, subtlety. When I think of gimli's costume, I think bulky, heavy armor, tank like you say. But if I were to draw his costume from my mind's eye, it would look nothing like the in movie costume. He has that bulky heavy armor look but it's very subtle leaving it to a beautifully crafted helmet and some intricate shoulder guards.
The same goes for aragorn. The archetype of a ranger. You think aragorn you think, cool, brooding, hood, mysterious, green, ranger. But in actuality his costume is not simple but very subtle and understated. Being a leather duster over layers of torn linen. It's fantastic.
I think cosplayers greatest mistake is often not being subtle enough and going far to colorful and overstating everything.
As far as the dwarven costumes for the hobbit, I think there close to horrible. 13 gimli-esque costumes would have been much better. Told apart by color and armor pieces, as well as hair color rather then these crazy hair styles.
I see where you're coming from, and subtlety is definitely the key, but I think that PJ was probably trying to integrate some of the more "cartoonish" elements of the hobbit. It may have misfired a bit though haha
I liked the variation in the costumes especially for bombur, gloin, dwalin and dori. Fili looked like a young dwarf but kili and thorin looked too human
Nori is a type of seaweed and his hair is starfish like...
Fun watch and I liked the breakdown of the culture of the Dwarves and the exploration of their different costumes. I like how much thought went into a lot of their designs but you are right, some of them just don't work or get swallowed up by the fact that they tried to make everyone feel that more important than they needed to be. I still find the movies very charming and I love the relationship shown on screen between Bilbo, Thorin, Balin and Bofur - but, it just doesn't work in the whole which is a real shame because I love The Hobbit. A tale for another video as you say.
It's fascinating that you mention Thorin's eyebrows as when you look at some of the early posters released for the films, his eyebrows are pretty wild and he looks like a Klingon rather than a Dwarf! I guess that might have played a factor in the changes as well.
I am a big fan of Dwarves and the stories about them in Middle-earth (and Norse Mythology) so having a video exploring them like this was a lot of fun. Great watch as always.
I still certainly find the dwarves delightful! Even with their issues, the performances really make them a lot of fun. You can tell a lot of love went into it.
And apparently they were switching up Thorin's look a ton, including having to reshoot bag-end material because they changed his makeup. So maybe the eyebrows were a reaction to previous attempts...
Thanks for watching!
I also wish bombur’s Tupperware would’ve been excellent, and will be putting it into my dnd material IMMEDIATELY
Bifur having an axe chunk in his head is also a visual pun: the axe chunk *bifurcates* his head/brain.
My criticism is just one word: whimsy. They injected goofiness that doesn't belong. If they were trying to "be kid-friendly in the spirit of the book," they wouldn't have milked it for all it was worth and made it an epic . . . like butter scraped over too much bread.
I first saw one of your videos a week ago and have been binge watching them since. Even videos that didn't seem like they would THAT interesting, like this one, have kept me entertaintained throughout. Your amount of research and passion for the subject is enviable. As I a side note, I don't know if you do your own make-up but it is always on point.
I unapologetically love the trilogies
Onte thing that bothers mw wit the "how can we tell them apart, they are so alike" is that basically every war-movie can pull that off without probplem. I just thinkt that wera a lazy excuse from the production team.
Also, Bofur and Bombur are brothers, but Bifur is their cousin. I always forget that until i reread the book.
I've always read it as Oin = Owen and Gloin = Glowen. It just flows more smoothly.
That is the correct pronunciation
The Dwarves are among my favorites. Not only are they unique, but they're also much more down-to-earth and relatable than the Elves and Men, in my opinion, probably because they were only really developed in Bilbo's story. Technically, aren't the Ents probably more unique, however?
Shouldn't the Dwarves have rather similar armor to the Men of the North? I mean, Thorin once remarks, "Fathers would beg us to take their sons as apprentices, and pay us handsomely, especially in food-supplies, which we never bothered to grow or find for ourselves", and from The Peoples of Middle-Earth, we get the impression their economy relies heavily on trade. As for historical parallels, wouldn't the best ones typically be either Viking or ancient Hebrew armor? Those seem to be Tolkien's two inspirations, anyway.
I would still argue it would be far more accurate to the book if they had given Bombur Bofur's role, as he is actually more or less the "nice & funny" Dwarf in the book (his conversation with Bilbo in "A Knife in the Dark" is one of my favorite scenes, but fair enough.
Thank you for the video. I sometimes wonder if it would have been better to cast someone who is actually the height of a Dwarf, as that might help differentiate Gimli from the Hobbits with different proportions and be easier anyway for the filmmakers when Gimli was mostly with Men and Elves.
Yeah, the barrel scene also brings me exceeding amounts of joy. Great video. Thank you for sharing.
Hey! Thanks a lot for that video! I am trying to create a "new face" for my dwarven costume for a LARP game and your video brings me inspiration and a north about where to focus to makes my dwarf be more like a fantasy dwarf :D that is awesome :D
I like Oin and Gloin since they have the most "classic" feeling designs. This maybe has more to do with their prosthetics and hair than outfits, but they just seem like something you would see in more Tolkien-inspired D&D art. I do also like Thorin's design a lot. Could use more beard but even as it is it is one of my favorites of the bunch.
I always felt Peter Jackson's Dwarves in the Hobbit movies were very Heavy Metal Rocker. And I did love the Dwarf shield wall assembly during the battle of the five armies: the look, the sound, and their lego brick modularity was a scream. For the sake of civility amd focus on your content, I am withholding obvious criticism on the movies themselves. I did love the dwarves, single note as they were.
while I get people want to see the dwarves in The Hobbit in armour, you gotta remember that the dwarves weren't all that rich at the time. And let's be honest, going on a hike to the other side of the continent that involves climbing mountains and what not probably isn't made any easier by being toe to toe clad in steel
Clearly, Thorin had achieved super saiyan 3. Eyebrow mystery solved
I don't know what the hell is wrong with the Hobbit movies, but I saw them all (one in cinema in 48p) and I've never noticed Bifur had an axe in his head lol
Very true about the "complications" inevitable from over-investment in dwarven presence. Bilbo's protagonist perspective in the story is a lot like "Rosencranz and Guildenstern's" perspective from that movie. He has his own unique experiences, only reluctantly gets involved in the first place, and is often at odds w events around him or his place in it- enough that everyone's intentionality is treated w skepticism. By over-emphasizing the dwarves it's like telling the "Rosencranz and Guildenstern" story from Hamlet's perspective... which... is just "Hamlet." As much as I like the dwarves and would like a movie where they and their culture are front and center (like a film adaptation of a casteless dwarf from "Dragon Age Origins,") Bilbo's journey and personality are the backbone of "The Hobbit..." making the film adaptation "Brokeback Misty Mountain"? Anyway, yes, it sorely misses the essential narrative due to Jackson's LotR-giddy self-indulgence, not seeing the Fangorn Forest for the trees...
I just can't get over that lipstick. Looks so good.
Also food containers in bombur's beard would have been so funny
Super informative and i completely understand your opinions on the lack of full personality for the dwarven company! Very good video once again :) also your outfit and makeup is beautiful!!!
Thank you so much!
I've just started watching a few of your videos and I just realized this one in the background on your bookshelf. You have a memorial edition of Dune which is my absolutely favored book of all time and I have one too.
I strongly recommend Lindsay Ellis's Hobbit (three-part) Duology video series. It's pretty eye-opening, particularly the third part.
Tolkien's dwarves have been hard done by the Peter Jackson era. As we look back on beardless dwarves it is important to note that when the movies were made there was still a strong societal prejudice against beards, at least if one was wanting to be deemed attractive to the fairer sex. While there was strong acceptance in a number of subcultures it was considered a detriment outside.
Jackson's Hobbit movies were made explicitly to make money from mainstream audience goers and therefore had to also appeal to conventional notions of attractiveness to aid engagement with female viewers, this also being the reason why Legolas was so popular with younger females during the LotR years.
The cash-cow nature of the Hobbit trilogy actually hampers the display of Dwarf culture because suddenly you are trying to differentiate each dwarf, and highlighting differences rather than showing commonality. Not every group needs the Power Ranger or United Colors of Benetton treatment. I think it's important to remember that Bilbo (who's recollection from the Red Book we are following here) starts of as an outsider. It takes time to remember all the idiosyncrasies when you join a group, so having most of them wear similar beards, and wearing similar suits of armour would actually be more fitting.
One aspect of culture that was missed that could have really been used over the long term to differentiate each dwarf is with the accessories. Even a poor dwarf is only poor by comparison. They all love to make things, especially with metal. A goldsmith might be poor compared to other goldsmiths but still wears gold. Where were the precious metal accessories? The hair/beard rings, the finger rings, bracers and bracelets? Whalebone hair combs bought in trade from elves? A number of them were described with gold and silver belts and chains, but there also isn't any reason why that couldn't have been extended further.
I really like the idea for the last video on this series. Looking forward to it!!
Well, I always thought that Bombur looked too much like Fat Bastard.
Thanks for creating the video. I thoroughly enjoyed watching it.
Dean O'Gorman was doing a show (the Almighty Johnson's) at the when they were filming so his character would disappear for awhile but they would make some fun jokes and references. miss that show.
I prefer the art deco architecture we see in the dwarvish mountain kingdoms, over the art nouveau fashion aspects of the elves. The jewelry and accessories of both are on par in my opinion. But it's frustrating to me that overwhelmingly we see dwarves in armor.....humans, elves and hobbits we see in many facets of life. Although Hobbits had to borrow their armor... Also the scenery/locales of the elven kindoms are beautiful and I love how they are very interconnected with nature by blurring boundaries between inside and outside...
Hmmm, I've got hundreds of different subscriptions, haven't really been watching anything Tolkien-related, but for some reason RUclips decided to recommend this video. It's always so strange when YT decides to bless people with recommendations... I figured this was gonna be a brand new channel paying to advertise, but nope, you've got quite a lot of videos out. I will definitely have to look around. Very nice.
I'm glad you found the channel, and I hope you find something here that you enjoy watching!
The Hobbit is the first book I read and still my favorite, the movie is also my favorite even though they added things in I still love it.
Seeing the animated hobbit movie when I was a very young child definitely shaped my love of fantasy and lotr today, tho I had no idea the impact it had until I was an adult.
I love that Bret got one of the matching tattoos 😭
I would love to watch that video with your complete ranking of all of LOTR costumes soooo badly...!!! Please please do give that video a chance - it's a fabulous idea! :)
You're a full time Hobbit in my heart, Jess.
I found it astonishing how Peter Jackson managed to make a trilogy like the Lord of the Rings that I'd show my kids and probably their kids, like my Dad did with the original Star Wars trilogy, then make a trilogy I pretend doesn't exist. The most memorable dwarf in the whole trilogy was Dain Ironfoot in a trilogy filled with dwarves and tiny men pretending to be dwarves. He was in it for like 10 minutes or something? Surely a feat but I doubt it was the feat they were hoping for although it just seemed like they winged the whole thing so maybe its not surprising. Luckily Rings of Power is a thing so at least its not the worst live action return to middle earth which is not a very high bar to beat though. What a disgrace that was.
Dain was awesome, though I will always hate the cartoony scottish accent media seems to love to give dwarfs. It would be more nordic in accent than Scottish.
We all know the reason for that - corporate meddling and short deadlines.
Del Toro was originally lined up to direct. He bailed last minute and Jackson reluctantly took the helm. Things were already in motion and it gave Jackson very little time to actually plan anything before deadlines were up.
Add in the fact that WB were now much more voracious in demanding profits and firstly mandated a duology followed by a trilogy. This was because WB had no other franchises at the time earning them money - Harry Potter had finished, The Dark Knight had finished, and Fantastic Beasts and the DCEU were yet to begin. They remembered how popular LoTR was, and that was three movies. They wanted 3 Hobbit movies to keep the money rolling. Lightning didn't strike twice.
*That* is how you get The Hobbit trilogy.
I actually loved the dwarves of The Hobbit, but maybe because I feel nostalgic watching it, no matter how bad it is lol (and I genuinely love Richard Armitage as Thorin, he put so much work in his role!)
But yeah, it would've been better to make a simple yet perfectly complete movie instead of 3 movies. Jackson himself was reluctant and was pressed to complete everything too quickly. I also read somewhere that he probably didn't feel much connection to the project as much as with LOTR, which is, in fact, his biggest masterpiece
@@forg_m6424 I didn't mind the acting as much as just the look of em. He did a great job acting but just sucks you out of the immersion with him just being a short guy with no dwarven features.
I believe that, ultimately, Peter Jackson and Co. did fail to create full characters for the dwarves, but like you said this trilogy was named after Bilbo, a Hobbit. They probably should have done a little more work for each dwarves character, but keeping them gimmicky was the right move because there was no way we would get around to anything more than surface level with 13 characters. I will say, I wish Bilbo’s friendship with Thorin was leaned into more.
Girl, for dwarves you have also the whole Silmarillion and other JRRT books. And as the dwarven culture is from that can be read as highly traditional, there is no need to think it changed too much from the First to the Third Age. Also, as to dwarf stature, thumb up for Gimli in LOTR and down for that vagabonds in The Hobbit.
I don't find many interesting new channels but this is one of them, subbed.
Had a double-take when you asked where Thorin's eyebrows were. I could have sworn that he did have some thick, dark brows on him, yet lo and behold...
Same here. I remembered his glowers and was sure I remembered some really thick eyebrows, but nope. What's wrong with our memories???
@@Elora445 something to do with Nelson Mandela 🤷♂️
@@FitzyCify
Damn him for changing our memories like that! :P
I would love to see an alternative universe movie trilogy where they stick to that fantasy adventure comedy thing and develop the dwarves more deeply, forgetting about the Lake Town and Tauriel
I like your comments they are very observant and somtimes sarcastic but you say them in such an innocent manner that they are never offensive. I agree with you about the Hobbit how did Peter Jackson milk 3 movies out of the tiny Hobbit novel?
I cannot express how much I don't care that the original story was supposed to be a light children's story all about Bilbo. No matter who the title character is the story is of a DWARVEN quest with great emotional, even existential significance to them that ends in a goddamn tragedy. The fate of Erebor may not be as directly important as that of the ring, but it's but it plays a key part in the northern realms' security so reclaiming it, and further defending it from, the forces of evil is of just as much geopolitical importance as say, Helm's Deep.
The fact that book treats every other characters like mere set dressing in it's main character's "fun" adventure, that it breezes through harrowing situations and important world events with so little consideration that even the character that's supposed to matter can just shrug it off at the end so easily that frankly he seems like a sociopath, are not simply acceptable intrinsic traits of the story, they are FLAWS in it.
I never even noticed the axe embedded in the Dwarf's head
Once again, a great thoroughly researched video on a topic which I think is rarely talked about, especially in such detail. It doesn't, it the slightest, make me detest the Hobbit trilogy any less, but it's very entertaining 😁 It actually highlights my impression that they pretty much disrespected the whole Dwarven race by turning most of them into gags and did the actors dirty by focusing on the comic aspects even in the visual realm instead of letting them just...you know, act. And bring some unique personality traits into their characters.
Looking forward to watching the rest of this series!
I'm surprised that I've never seen the term Dwalin milk despite all the fanfiction I've read about the Hobbit.
If Thorin’s beard was meant to be singed off where was it before Smaug cuz I don’t remember it being any longer. 🤔 Also, does the behind the scenes say why Jackson decided to switch Balín & Thorin’s ages since he was the oldest in the book? At least I think so, but I haven’t read it in so long I could be mistaken.
Tolkien’s life experience of lif coloured it . The dwarves are the miners of Wales, the West Midlands and Cornwall. Short, wide ,kind and as brave and tough as you really wouldn’t want to meet on the field of battle!🏴
The thing about the dwarves' design that I found to be most annoying was that they basically dropped all the descriptions that Tolkien actually did give them, most importantly the damn colors!
Not really though ? The vast majority of the dwarves in the movies wear clothes with a color scheme identical to the colors of their hoods in the book. Balin has red clothes, Dwalin has green, Dori and Ori have shades of purple, Nori wears grey etc... exceptions are Bifur's rust tones to differenciate him from Bofur's mustard yellow, Fili's browns and Gloin's dark red instead of white
Being a 90s kid I have fond memories of Lois and Clark, it would be nice to see that in a NC 😅