Sincere thanks Ian for identifying the Powercab limitation. If this had been mentioned in the information leaflet it would have saved me a lot of trouble and cash when I fitted 8 and they all became unreliable. I resolved the stalling by installing an on-off-on toggle switch on every frog. Well spotted.
One thing to consider for those using extruded (or expanded) foam on their layouts. There is an issue with the reaction that occurs between the wire insulation and the foam. The insulation on wires contains plasticisers that can leach out of the insulation and start eating the foam. In so doing if enough plasticiser leaches from the wires insulation it can become brittle and fail. These plasticisers are the reason why the wire insulation is flexible. I see that silicone insulation is becoming popular on wire so this should resolve such issues
Hi Peter! That's very interesting! I had no idea that sort of reaction could take place! I think all of the wire I use has a silicone insulation, and all of the dropper wires drop through paper straws, reducing interaction with the foam, so I should be okay! Thanks for the interesting info! All the best, Ian.
Hey Ian, Awesome presentation on the DCC80 and the uni frog point. I use a power cab for my layout and I also use the peco pl10 point motors along with their accessories for mounting and polarity switching. I do use a separate power source for the point motors. These are not directly into the bus wire. I do understand what you are trying to achieve. But to help with your switching, maybe a stronger power source could be used for the points and the trains run off the power cab. If that is the way you wish to go. If not, then the choice of the DCC80 might b the way to go with you stronger controller.
Hi Andrew! Thank you! I looked at many different ways of switching the points, including the Peco PL10's, and have settled on using servo motors, as I can embed them into the foam near to the points! Attaching PL10's to the track would mean having to lift the track should they fail, which is why I discounted them! The DCC80's real strength is in being able to use them when switching the points manually! They are designed to take their power from the DCC bus, and won't work form a separete power supply! The Powercab was a temporary solution I had to employ when my original DCC controller developed a WiFi fault, but I've now upgraded that, so will be using it going forward as the Powercab has several other limitations, not just with its power delivery! Thanks for watching, and taking the time to comment! All the best, Ian.
Hi Ian I am adding these to my layout all track work is done i have managed to wire the frog at front and drop wire through baseboard it's a bit fidley as I also model in ngauge but the difference in running is great
Hi Michael! They're pretty good little units aren't they? Mine will eventually live below the layout! I've soldered wires to my frogs that will drop through my foam and plywood baseboard, to be connected to the autofrog! I'll then wire the other terminals directly into the DCC bus! Cheers, Ian.
Hi Chris! Yes, I'm coming around to that way of thinking, especially when my 03 and 08 struggled to cleanly get over the unifrog point at medium speed, when they'd traversed insulfrog points without issue! Jonathan pointed out that the frog area is larger on a unifrog point, which was something I hadn't realised! Every day's a school day, as they say! All the best, Ian.
Hi Ian, another good, thorough experiment! My first Dapol Pannier tank is the reason I needed to switch to Electrofrog AND the reason I can't use these autofrogs on them! It worked with my 08 and I think some others locos, but was inconsistent with that Pannier - as if it wasn't quite quick enough for it. Now that you mention relays, and the click definitely sounds like a relay and the white box looks like a relay, it's actually a strange choice because relays are relatively slow to switch - you'd think transistors would be the way to go. I know some people don't like using these because they don't like deliberately exposing a loco to a short circuit, even if it's only a very brief one - if there's an inherent downside I think that's it. I have no idea where my old insulfrog points are at the moment, but I think when I first got a unifrog point its isolated section looked longer to me than the plastic section of insulfrogs. If that's correct then without power it's a longer dead section for locos to get over, which could explain the issues with the little locos going over it when non-powered. I'm glad the autofrog works for your locos... though might be worth checking against your whole short-wheelbase fleet before buying lots of them.
Good morning Jonathan! Thank you! I've not tried my 57xx as it has its own running problems, but I've tried about half of my fleet, and since switching to the YD7001, the autofrogs have worked brilliantly! The autofrog definitely uses a relay, and as long as it reacts more quickly than the short-circuit detection of the DCC controller, then it should be fine! You can get other "frog-juicers" that use transistors, but they're about three times the price if not more! You're right about the frog being longer on the unifrog points than the insulfrog ones, which was something I hadn't noticed! All the best, Ian.
@@iansngauge My Pannier was jerking over the auto-frogged frog - the DCC system wasn't cutting the power - so I think that loco is more sensitive than the Prodigy Express. The short circuit must be going through the loco too, so I figure it's not just the DCC control system that matters, but I don't really know. Still, these autofrogs do seem to work for a lot of people, so my Pannier might just be exceptionally tetchy! I'm glad it works with the locos you've tested - they do seem like the simplest solution to install that can work whatever the point throwing mechanism is.
Hi Ian, very interesting review of the Dcc80, I have seen them, but have used a Tamvalley frog juicer which does the same job, they are more expensive but don't rely on relays and come in single's, two's, fours or six outputs to the frogs. maybe worth picking up a single from a dcc shop to test, as this may work with the NCE system therefore giving you a back up dcc controller if the dr5000 fails again. All the best Tony.
Good morning Tony! Thank you! Yes, I've seen those Tam Valley frog juicers, which use transistors instead of relays, so should switch much more quickly! As you point out though, they're very expensive! I'll definitely shop around though and see if I can pick one up for another experiment! :) Meanwhile I'll see if I can find a regulated 15V 2A power supply for the Powercab! Cheers, Ian.
Morning Euan! Yes, it's all very clever stuff! I really like these autofrogs, especially as they can be used on points whether they've been motorised or not! Cheers, Ian.
Hi Ian, another interesting video. Good to see more progress on the 'tricky bit' coming along very well. I have a question. I am embarking on a new project. Spoiler video out later today as I write this 😂. What I wanted to know was would you recommend the NCE power Cab. I feel I need something smaller to control my new project. All the best and happy modelling. Allan
Good morning Allan! Thank you! The first section of the Tricky Bit is nearly complete, although I'm always dreaming up new tasks to prolong its completion! Lol! Hmm, would I recommend the NCE Powercab? I've been working on a review for the past few months, and pose a similar question! It does many things well, and simplifies *everything*, but that simplification leads to annoyances! I have two big bug bears - and several small ones! The first is that it's underpowered! At 1.8A, it'll struggle when you have four or five sound fitted locos, especially if you rely on the DCC bus power for anything else - point control, signalling, lighting, frog polarity switching - then I think you'd need to start looking at boosters! The second is that it only retains six loco addresses! This is insane! I assume the reasoning is that it can't power more than six locos at a time - but we all have more than six locos, and having to constantly reprogram the handset when we bring a loco back to the track is frustrating beyond belief! However, it is good at so many other things, such as controlling a loco, quickly changing momentum settings, programming / changing loco addresses, switching accessories, and it has macro capabilities to trigger multiple events with a single keypress! So, yeah, I'd recommend it for a small layout, as long as you can live with its shortcomings! Hope this helps! Looking forward to seeing news of your new project! All the best, Ian.
Hi Ian, It's interesting how it didn't work properly with the Powercab, but it did with your upgraded DR5000. I used the Digikeijs DR4024 to drive the servos, and that had an output for each servo to use as a frog polarity switcher when used with a small relay board. But of course, that is no longer, and I think the Yamorc equivalent to the 4024 doesn't have the outputs for polarity switching. But the unit you have there looks like it works well. Cheers!
Hi John! Yes, I don't really know why it didn't work with the Powercab, and am only guessing that it's something to do with the 1.8A maximum current draw! The DR5000 can supply 3A, so has plenty of overhead - again a complete guess! Yes, with the DR4024 you can use DR4102 "points crossing interface" to switch the frog polarity, but these are no longer available! Does YaMoRC have a DR4024 equivalent? The good thing about the GM autofrogs is that I can use them in conjunction with any servo controller, and even when switching manually! As I still have a DR4024, I'll be able to put it to good use eventually! All the best, Ian.
Clickty Click 😁 I have used these on my few points for years and was never really sure if they actually did anything 🤭Excellent presentation as always 🌟 Very best wishes from the Emerald Isle ☘️ Well done, Colin 😇
Good morning Paul! Thank you! You have points on Wickford? Well I never! Glad to confirm that they're being supplied with frog power from the GM autofrogs - as longs as you're not using a Powercab to control things! Cheers, Ian.
Hi, yes I use these, and generally fantastic. They certainly do make a difference, just a shame they are a lot more expensive now than they used to be. Way things are though...
Good morning John! Great to hear that you're using these autofrogs, and are happy with them! Amazon seem to have a good deal on them at the moment, ~£23 for three! I guess they were cheaper than that in the past though! All the best, Ian.
Interesting to see this video Ian. I can't offer insights because, apart from the double slips, none of my electrofrog points have polarity switching. Very occasionally I have to clean a point blade and the adjacent track but it's easy to do and is very infrequent. The gaugemaster auto frog does look a good solution for you to be able to be selective on where you want to fit them. Stephen
Thanks very much Stephen! How do your smaller locos deal with no polarity switching? As you saw with mine, they didn't like dead frogs when moving slowly! Jonathan pointed out that the unifrog points have a larger frog area than the insulfrog ones, and I wonder if the electrofrog ones are similar in size? Also, with unifrog points, the point blades play no part in power distribution, and are only there to divert the train, which is one reason I love them! Yes, these autofrogs are going to come in very handy, especially as they work on points whether they've been motorised or not! All the best, Ian.
@@iansngauge morning Ian. The short wheelbase locos, provided their wheels are clean, seem not to to have any problem. You have seen the Pannier take a train up to High Elven. To do that is passes over in addition to two double slips, five straight points, and one curved point. The Jinty and Panniers all also happily work around the depot. I do, or course, have to fit insulating rail joiners to each of the two rails on V of the permanently live frog. Peco claim, and so far I have found it to be true, that their electro frog points can be used straight out of the packet with no need for any adjustment or alteration. Some modellers do power the frog because they don’t want to rely on the blade of the point. I can see if you are running trains in a shed or loft, where dust accumulation is a problem that might be necessary. Stephen
Hi Ian for a minute i thought i sent you a duff one, but it work. Interesting we use them at first with a NCE Powercab and they did work fine, but before we started using the i had a problem with my first train i ever had and i was speaking to a guy at a exhibition and he said the plug what NCE people supplied stop all the power going to the hand set (i think thats what he said) and he thought that is why my train wasn't running wright so he had a plug and wire the fitted and was better for the English electric. Did it make a difference no, ( the problem we had was humidity) but i didn't have any problems using the autofrogs until i started to have a lot of American trains with sound they use more power, but at that time i released we had out used the Powercab and i didn't think it's easy to use with sound locos. So we went onto piko controller. If you like the Powercab get a booster for it, or it maybe time to have a change. The offer on the autofrog is still there if you want them. Nicely presented video and well explained. Colin
Good morning Colin! Haha! No, I was sure you wouldn't have sent me a non-working one, but it did have me scratching my head for quite a while! Interesting that they worked with your Powercab! I wonder if you had a different power supply to me - I know NCE change the one that ships with the Powercab occasionally! I'm planning on using my DR5000 / YD7001 for the layout eventually! The Powercab was only purchased to run a test track I plan on creating in the future! I had to press it into action though when the WiFi stopped working on the DR5000! Yes, I'm interested in the other autofrogs - I'll email you later! Cheers, Ian.
weird that current issue, I've been using relays with far less than a 1.8A supply for years makes me twitch the idea of forcing a short circuit to detect it.. there is a potential pratfall, you don't seem to suffer though - some DCC systems will see the short faster than the autofrog and will shut the power down - just something to be aware of. they are at least not too unreasonably priced, could be made for a bit less but not worth the faff compared to open a packet and off you go at that price. personally I'm using microswitches driven by the servo, does take up more space though
Hi! Yeah, the current issue is only a hunch, as I have no real evidence! There are a few anecdotal posts in various forums where people seem to be having similar issues with the Powercab, but nothing cut and dry! All I know is that my other controller does the job! Using a short-circuit to handle polarity switching in things like reverse loops seems to be a pretty standard way of doing things! I guess it depends how long the short-circuit lasts as to whether the DCC system detects it, and shuts itself down! The microswitch solution is a good one, but with my servos being above baseboard, I don't think it's a practical one in my situation! All the best, Ian.
Sincere thanks Ian for identifying the Powercab limitation. If this had been mentioned in the information leaflet it would have saved me a lot of trouble and cash when I fitted 8 and they all became unreliable. I resolved the stalling by installing an on-off-on toggle switch on every frog.
Well spotted.
Hi Paddy! Glad the video was of some help to you, and that you found a solution to the problem! All the best, Ian.
One thing to consider for those using extruded (or expanded) foam on their layouts. There is an issue with the reaction that occurs between the wire insulation and the foam. The insulation on wires contains plasticisers that can leach out of the insulation and start eating the foam. In so doing if enough plasticiser leaches from the wires insulation it can become brittle and fail. These plasticisers are the reason why the wire insulation is flexible. I see that silicone insulation is becoming popular on wire so this should resolve such issues
Hi Peter! That's very interesting! I had no idea that sort of reaction could take place! I think all of the wire I use has a silicone insulation, and all of the dropper wires drop through paper straws, reducing interaction with the foam, so I should be okay! Thanks for the interesting info! All the best, Ian.
Hey Ian, Awesome presentation on the DCC80 and the uni frog point. I use a power cab for my layout and I also use the peco pl10 point motors along with their accessories for mounting and polarity switching. I do use a separate power source for the point motors. These are not directly into the bus wire. I do understand what you are trying to achieve. But to help with your switching, maybe a stronger power source could be used for the points and the trains run off the power cab. If that is the way you wish to go. If not, then the choice of the DCC80 might b the way to go with you stronger controller.
Hi Andrew! Thank you! I looked at many different ways of switching the points, including the Peco PL10's, and have settled on using servo motors, as I can embed them into the foam near to the points! Attaching PL10's to the track would mean having to lift the track should they fail, which is why I discounted them! The DCC80's real strength is in being able to use them when switching the points manually! They are designed to take their power from the DCC bus, and won't work form a separete power supply! The Powercab was a temporary solution I had to employ when my original DCC controller developed a WiFi fault, but I've now upgraded that, so will be using it going forward as the Powercab has several other limitations, not just with its power delivery! Thanks for watching, and taking the time to comment! All the best, Ian.
Hi Ian I am adding these to my layout all track work is done i have managed to wire the frog at front and drop wire through baseboard it's a bit fidley as I also model in ngauge but the difference in running is great
Hi Michael! They're pretty good little units aren't they? Mine will eventually live below the layout! I've soldered wires to my frogs that will drop through my foam and plywood baseboard, to be connected to the autofrog! I'll then wire the other terminals directly into the DCC bus! Cheers, Ian.
Hi Ian, very interesting, i definitely think frog switching has to costed into any calculation of automated point control.
Hi Chris! Yes, I'm coming around to that way of thinking, especially when my 03 and 08 struggled to cleanly get over the unifrog point at medium speed, when they'd traversed insulfrog points without issue! Jonathan pointed out that the frog area is larger on a unifrog point, which was something I hadn't realised! Every day's a school day, as they say! All the best, Ian.
Hi Ian, another good, thorough experiment!
My first Dapol Pannier tank is the reason I needed to switch to Electrofrog AND the reason I can't use these autofrogs on them! It worked with my 08 and I think some others locos, but was inconsistent with that Pannier - as if it wasn't quite quick enough for it.
Now that you mention relays, and the click definitely sounds like a relay and the white box looks like a relay, it's actually a strange choice because relays are relatively slow to switch - you'd think transistors would be the way to go.
I know some people don't like using these because they don't like deliberately exposing a loco to a short circuit, even if it's only a very brief one - if there's an inherent downside I think that's it.
I have no idea where my old insulfrog points are at the moment, but I think when I first got a unifrog point its isolated section looked longer to me than the plastic section of insulfrogs. If that's correct then without power it's a longer dead section for locos to get over, which could explain the issues with the little locos going over it when non-powered.
I'm glad the autofrog works for your locos... though might be worth checking against your whole short-wheelbase fleet before buying lots of them.
Good morning Jonathan! Thank you! I've not tried my 57xx as it has its own running problems, but I've tried about half of my fleet, and since switching to the YD7001, the autofrogs have worked brilliantly! The autofrog definitely uses a relay, and as long as it reacts more quickly than the short-circuit detection of the DCC controller, then it should be fine! You can get other "frog-juicers" that use transistors, but they're about three times the price if not more! You're right about the frog being longer on the unifrog points than the insulfrog ones, which was something I hadn't noticed! All the best, Ian.
@@iansngauge My Pannier was jerking over the auto-frogged frog - the DCC system wasn't cutting the power - so I think that loco is more sensitive than the Prodigy Express. The short circuit must be going through the loco too, so I figure it's not just the DCC control system that matters, but I don't really know. Still, these autofrogs do seem to work for a lot of people, so my Pannier might just be exceptionally tetchy! I'm glad it works with the locos you've tested - they do seem like the simplest solution to install that can work whatever the point throwing mechanism is.
Hi Ian, very interesting review of the Dcc80, I have seen them, but have used a Tamvalley frog juicer which does the same job, they are more expensive but don't rely on relays and come in single's, two's, fours or six outputs to the frogs. maybe worth picking up a single from a dcc shop to test, as this may work with the NCE system therefore giving you a back up dcc controller if the dr5000 fails again. All the best Tony.
Good morning Tony! Thank you! Yes, I've seen those Tam Valley frog juicers, which use transistors instead of relays, so should switch much more quickly! As you point out though, they're very expensive! I'll definitely shop around though and see if I can pick one up for another experiment! :) Meanwhile I'll see if I can find a regulated 15V 2A power supply for the Powercab! Cheers, Ian.
Evening Ian. All clever stuff these bits of kit - possibly steal a march over the PECO twin accessory switches i use. 😊cheers Euan
Morning Euan! Yes, it's all very clever stuff! I really like these autofrogs, especially as they can be used on points whether they've been motorised or not! Cheers, Ian.
Hi Ian, another interesting video. Good to see more progress on the 'tricky bit' coming along very well.
I have a question. I am embarking on a new project. Spoiler video out later today as I write this 😂. What I wanted to know was would you recommend the NCE power Cab. I feel I need something smaller to control my new project.
All the best and happy modelling.
Allan
Good morning Allan! Thank you! The first section of the Tricky Bit is nearly complete, although I'm always dreaming up new tasks to prolong its completion! Lol! Hmm, would I recommend the NCE Powercab? I've been working on a review for the past few months, and pose a similar question! It does many things well, and simplifies *everything*, but that simplification leads to annoyances! I have two big bug bears - and several small ones! The first is that it's underpowered! At 1.8A, it'll struggle when you have four or five sound fitted locos, especially if you rely on the DCC bus power for anything else - point control, signalling, lighting, frog polarity switching - then I think you'd need to start looking at boosters! The second is that it only retains six loco addresses! This is insane! I assume the reasoning is that it can't power more than six locos at a time - but we all have more than six locos, and having to constantly reprogram the handset when we bring a loco back to the track is frustrating beyond belief! However, it is good at so many other things, such as controlling a loco, quickly changing momentum settings, programming / changing loco addresses, switching accessories, and it has macro capabilities to trigger multiple events with a single keypress! So, yeah, I'd recommend it for a small layout, as long as you can live with its shortcomings! Hope this helps! Looking forward to seeing news of your new project! All the best, Ian.
Hi Ian, It's interesting how it didn't work properly with the Powercab, but it did with your upgraded DR5000. I used the Digikeijs DR4024 to drive the servos, and that had an output for each servo to use as a frog polarity switcher when used with a small relay board. But of course, that is no longer, and I think the Yamorc equivalent to the 4024 doesn't have the outputs for polarity switching. But the unit you have there looks like it works well. Cheers!
Hi John! Yes, I don't really know why it didn't work with the Powercab, and am only guessing that it's something to do with the 1.8A maximum current draw! The DR5000 can supply 3A, so has plenty of overhead - again a complete guess! Yes, with the DR4024 you can use DR4102 "points crossing interface" to switch the frog polarity, but these are no longer available! Does YaMoRC have a DR4024 equivalent? The good thing about the GM autofrogs is that I can use them in conjunction with any servo controller, and even when switching manually! As I still have a DR4024, I'll be able to put it to good use eventually! All the best, Ian.
Hi Ian A great little device, just the job and easy to fit, I might have to get some...lol. Thanks
Good morning Pete! Yes, I'd quite impressed with them! If only I could get them to work with the Powercab! Yes, you *must* get some! Lol! Cheers, Ian.
Clickty Click 😁 I have used these on my few points for years and was never really sure if they actually did anything 🤭Excellent presentation as always 🌟 Very best wishes from the Emerald Isle ☘️ Well done, Colin 😇
Good morning Paul! Thank you! You have points on Wickford? Well I never! Glad to confirm that they're being supplied with frog power from the GM autofrogs - as longs as you're not using a Powercab to control things! Cheers, Ian.
The points are in the rarely seen Cement Works 🤫 I use a Rocco Z21 with a DCC Concepts Alpha Power for the juice 🍊
Hi, yes I use these, and generally fantastic. They certainly do make a difference, just a shame they are a lot more expensive now than they used to be. Way things are though...
Good morning John! Great to hear that you're using these autofrogs, and are happy with them! Amazon seem to have a good deal on them at the moment, ~£23 for three! I guess they were cheaper than that in the past though! All the best, Ian.
Interesting to see this video Ian. I can't offer insights because, apart from the double slips, none of my electrofrog points have polarity switching. Very occasionally I have to clean a point blade and the adjacent track but it's easy to do and is very infrequent. The gaugemaster auto frog does look a good solution for you to be able to be selective on where you want to fit them. Stephen
Thanks very much Stephen! How do your smaller locos deal with no polarity switching? As you saw with mine, they didn't like dead frogs when moving slowly! Jonathan pointed out that the unifrog points have a larger frog area than the insulfrog ones, and I wonder if the electrofrog ones are similar in size? Also, with unifrog points, the point blades play no part in power distribution, and are only there to divert the train, which is one reason I love them! Yes, these autofrogs are going to come in very handy, especially as they work on points whether they've been motorised or not! All the best, Ian.
@@iansngauge morning Ian. The short wheelbase locos, provided their wheels are clean, seem not to to have any problem. You have seen the Pannier take a train up to High Elven. To do that is passes over in addition to two double slips, five straight points, and one curved point. The Jinty and Panniers all also happily work around the depot. I do, or course, have to fit insulating rail joiners to each of the two rails on V of the permanently live frog. Peco claim, and so far I have found it to be true, that their electro frog points can be used straight out of the packet with no need for any adjustment or alteration. Some modellers do power the frog because they don’t want to rely on the blade of the point. I can see if you are running trains in a shed or loft, where dust accumulation is a problem that might be necessary. Stephen
Thanks for the info Stephen! :)
Hi Ian for a minute i thought i sent you a duff one, but it work. Interesting we use them at first with a NCE Powercab and they did work fine, but before we started using the i had a problem with my first train i ever had and i was speaking to a guy at a exhibition and he said the plug what NCE people supplied stop all the power going to the hand set (i think thats what he said) and he thought that is why my train wasn't running wright so he had a plug and wire the fitted and was better for the English electric. Did it make a difference no,
( the problem we had was humidity)
but i didn't have any problems using the autofrogs until i started to have a lot of American trains with sound they use more power, but at that time i released we had out used the Powercab and i didn't think it's easy to use with sound locos. So we went onto piko controller. If you like the Powercab get a booster for it, or it maybe time to have a change. The offer on the autofrog is still there if you want them. Nicely presented video and well explained. Colin
Good morning Colin! Haha! No, I was sure you wouldn't have sent me a non-working one, but it did have me scratching my head for quite a while! Interesting that they worked with your Powercab! I wonder if you had a different power supply to me - I know NCE change the one that ships with the Powercab occasionally! I'm planning on using my DR5000 / YD7001 for the layout eventually! The Powercab was only purchased to run a test track I plan on creating in the future! I had to press it into action though when the WiFi stopped working on the DR5000! Yes, I'm interested in the other autofrogs - I'll email you later! Cheers, Ian.
weird that current issue, I've been using relays with far less than a 1.8A supply for years
makes me twitch the idea of forcing a short circuit to detect it.. there is a potential pratfall, you don't seem to suffer though - some DCC systems will see the short faster than the autofrog and will shut the power down - just something to be aware of.
they are at least not too unreasonably priced, could be made for a bit less but not worth the faff compared to open a packet and off you go at that price.
personally I'm using microswitches driven by the servo, does take up more space though
Hi! Yeah, the current issue is only a hunch, as I have no real evidence! There are a few anecdotal posts in various forums where people seem to be having similar issues with the Powercab, but nothing cut and dry! All I know is that my other controller does the job! Using a short-circuit to handle polarity switching in things like reverse loops seems to be a pretty standard way of doing things! I guess it depends how long the short-circuit lasts as to whether the DCC system detects it, and shuts itself down! The microswitch solution is a good one, but with my servos being above baseboard, I don't think it's a practical one in my situation! All the best, Ian.