Amazing video, I'm hoping that both Sega and Sonic Team see the success of frontiers both commercially and critically (by fans) that they need to stick with this formula and just fix some small issues and keep building upon it for future 3D games
LETS FUCKING GO ANOTHER GOATED FLIPSIDE VIDEO!! Bro this was one of your greatest yet, I was hoping the video would never end. This was structured so well and the comedic jokes were spliced in perfectly. The comparisons to other franchises like Mario were great when considering how Sonic should look in the future and how it NEEDS a firm establishment as a series. I haven’t had a ton of experience with Sonic games, only a few, but even from my perspective I can see that it lags behind in foundation. I think this video is amazing and calls upon the importance of foundation needed when developing Sonic games. I could truly feel your enthusiasm for the series and how much you love this franchise throughout the video. Incredible job as always man!!
I do think it’s worth mentioning that the boost formula physics, specifically in cyberspace, are still very stiff and restricting compared to unleashed, generations, and colors and that if they want to transition to making things more open while fusing adventure with boost, there should be a lot less forced 2d sections
Absolutely, I agree 100%. That would require them however to still stick with this formula and improve upon it, and hopefully in the next game we’re not seeing some brand new gameplay style separate from what Frontiers has given us.
Huh? With performance sliders + better movement tech, I think Frontier’s Cyber Space is more controllable than Unleashed and Colors. I genuinely think the Cyber Space exp shits all over Colors and it’s Mario platforming.
You know it is funny how the New Super Mario Bros series has the opposite problem (too much consistency) and Nintendo is also releasing a new groundbreaking game to spice it up
@TheFlipsideShow agreed. As someone who believes sa1 is better than sa2 I probably shouldn't say this (lol) but they really should bring that kind of gameplay back next Sonic game
“I’ve played more sonic frontiers than any other sonic games in the last ten years.” Bro The last sonic game I played was 12 years ago So relatable indeed!
11:35 I never would've thought to see an image I made on the Sonic subreddit be used on a RUclips video but here we are lmao Btw I'm not bothered at all, I appreciate my image being used!
The reason they dropped the boost after 2011 is actually pretty understandable. Iizuka himself heavily implied in an interview several years ago that they felt as if they couldn't further innovate on that style exclusively. And I can honestly see why they came to that conclusion, the boost itself is a very limited and binary gameplay style that is more reactionary with very fast paced gameplay.
It's 06 fault. Like literally it was so bad they dropped the Adventure formula, playable characters and serious stories. It was also there when everyone started throwing shit at the franchise for everything regardless of it's quality
2:10 "Sonic has been around since the 80's" Where did you get this information from? Even down to prototypes, the earliest prototype we know of for Sonic 1 dates back to 1990.
That was my mistake, the source I used was incorrect. That piece of information was only used to set the stage of my argument however, it doesn’t impact the larger point being made here.
Amazing video. You basically capsules every big problem with 3D Sonic for the longest time. All I ever want is to go 10 years later and say “Wow! You kind of look like ass Frontiers compared to the future entries that has build upon the foundation that you set” and not “I was too harsh on you Frontiers” which the cycle we have been going through for the longest time
id argue the ONLY positive of this gameplay difference in every title is a very, very niche situation in which you marathon/play through the whole series. I did this before Frontiers released and enjoyed mastering every varying style of gameplay and it made it way more palatable (to me at least). Not to say its a positive, but it was nice in this case. I do agree with everything as far as I DESPERATELY hope sonic team sticks to this, its the PERFECT base for a truly amazing sequel.
It's funny how I watched this video a year after it was released and I can say that sonic did prove you wrong here's to the future of this character, and hoping that they can keep up this speed. ( also I loved this video)
YESSSIRRRR ANOTHER FIRE VIDEO!!!!!🔥🔥🔥 I enjoy Sonic as a character. The gameplay may be subpar but it's the characters that keeps me enthralled. I can't say that for Mario, character wise. The characters is what brings life into the games and the world of Sonic. Its one of the reasons why I love the Zelda games and Kirby games so much. Because of the characters that breaths life into the world that its established in.
I truly do feel the gameplay of sonic is on par or even better than that of Mario at it’s high points, the problem is that Sonic’s low points are so incredibly low that it ruins it almost. Mario’s lowest point in comparison is still incredibly high, almost as high as some of Sonic’s highs. Sonic definitely has Mario beat when it comes to character, I feel like Mario’s character is just that wholesome warm feeling which is strong for sure - but Sonic’s character and attitude is just so in your face and present that it’s hard not to give it to sonic in that regard.
@@TheFlipsideShow I completely agree, Marios gameplay is far better than what Sonic has put out. But I still prefer Sonic over Mario when it comes to hype factor.
Breaking down the game design, Frontiers has a ton of problems for sure, but also some of the best ideas they've ever had. And many of them come from the updates, which suggest that they listened to feedback in a GOOD WAY for once. But the question of whether they will recognize it and be able to evolve the Frontiers formula remains... And it always feels like they're heavily constrained by budget or deadlines.
I agree with some things here. But there's also a lot of internal stuff that went wrong. I believe contracts for certain games, third-party pushing deadlines, restructuring of the company, and such. Or so I've read. Basically Sega is a very hectic place to work. But thankfully it's mostly calmed down now. The director of Frontiers is actively taking player feedback for the next game, so here's hoping. Ps: Black Knight, and boom are spinoffs, so I wouldn't count those as gameplay inconsistencies.
im excited to see what sonic team has next for 3d sonic. an improvement on the frontiers formula, maybe with better physics, more diverse levels, and some more adventure flair would be a dream. great video, you nailed all your points
Despite how buggy Update 3 for Frontiers was, I really hope they stick with the Open Zone formula and not immediately go to Sonic Adventure 3 next. It feels like that’s what they’ve been hinting at, and I don’t think it should be made. I think Sonic nowadays excels in an open sandbox styled game. Frontiers has such a great foundation, and if it’s followed up with for the next game with incredible locales, superb level design, and even crazier spectacle, we could have the best 3D Sonic game ever made.
update 3 hd no 2d segments in the open world or new cyberspace levels which is great. the new towers had some great end game platforming and the final boss was as epic as anything in the 2000s games. they need to refine and build just like you said but update 3 was a great start and we didn't even have to wait till a new release.
They really overtuned the difficulty, but I appreciate that they tried to make bosses actually utilize the combat mechanics instead of platforming gimmicks. There's some great ideas there, they just need time to playtest and polish it.
THANK YOU. THANK YOU. Finally someone says it. I’ve been thinking this for awhile. Sonics biggest flaw as a gaming franchise is its lack of consistency. It chooses to build a house with boards but never uses the screws to lock it in. With every new game I see sonic just becoming a shell of inconsistencies and mediocrity. I really hope that one day the devs wake up and have a crash bandicoot moment and realize where the franchise has been going isn’t going to work and they just scrap everything And start from adventure 1 and 2.
It Feels So Strange To Say This But... I Have Hope For The Future Of Sonic. With Ian Flynn Being Head Writer And Having A Lore Management Team. I Think The Inconsistencies Are Going To Be Less Common. Sonic's Future Is Looking Brighter, I'm Just Praying They Don't Mess It Up.
I truly hope Flynn sticks around for a while, while at the same time I hope Sega allows him to spread his wings even more and do what he wants with a Sonic story. Personally I think the tone in Unleashed is my favorite balance between lighthearted and serious and if we could see his take on something like that - it’d be amazing to see.
@@TheFlipsideShow I Mean, We Know Ian Can Produce Some "Dark" Stories. *cough* Metal Virus *cough* So Yeah, I Hope He Sticks Around! He Could Create Something Really Amazing If Given Enough Time (No Stupid Mandates)
The only complaint i has about Frontiers is that i cant go back to Generations without being confused what the boost button is. RT fits so well. Frontiers been having my attention for a while now and couldnt be happier with Sonics comeback. I hope they maintain the newfound streak.
Isnt that literally the Sonic cycle? People think its a "comeback" and then the entire thing gets redone and they change everything instead of building upon it? Dont get your hopes up, people have been using the word comeback, and "back to sonic's roots" for a while. Which means even after over 30 years, hes still unable to find his footing, and has to keep making "comebacks" . Personally frontiers looks extremely bland
I remember a while ago there was a video someone made in which they proposed a new formula for sonic, and one of the many ideas was giving sonic a “run” button like on the gears of a cars. While Lost World did this to an extent, I think Frontiers is proof that the concept has weight. I agree that boost on trigger is such a natural feeling and it is crazy how quickly I adapted to it after years and years of boost gameplay being on facebuttons.
@@ZaiDrizzleDropThe director himself has already confirmed the they'll be sticking with this formula for the next ten years. He's been very vocal on Twitter and has been responding to feedback, lol people messaging him on Twitter is literally the reason the Spindash is in the game, it's very clear they've learn their lesson. Although I won't blame you for being pessimistic.
The Open Zone Formula is a Great Foundation that SEGA has Stated they will be going forward with. Unfortunately, Frontiers is so flawed when it comes to actually utilizing it (All the Level Design is Completely Linear and Separate from the island) that I’m not sure if they’ll actually know how to build upon it.
@@frontiersmodel4781 Yes but the Problem is it’s completely separate from the Open Zone, at that Point why not just make another Linear, Level Based Game. At least then we would be getting the Best Parts without any of the Filler.
@@Terminal_Apotos Yeah completely agree, hope they manage to make an actual cohesively designed open zone instead of like cheesing the skies with fun but goofy platforming sections.
Contrary to popular opinion Sonic did not change that much. Each formula has three games and boost is actually the exception for being the longest standing style. 1,cd,2,3 are Classic, sa1, 2,06 are adventure and heroes is in between, and unleashed, colors, gens and forces are boost, with lost world as the biggest oddball in series history. The werehog exists solely to appeal to action game fans of the time and to fill up game time but it was a fun playstyle regardless. Boom was a jak clone trying to create a new slate for sonic or a potential side series to fill up slots between the real releases. IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO MAKE A FULL SONIC GAME BECAUSE HE'S TOO FAST. he covers too much ground, the other characters have to reuse assets and cover similar ground more slowly to extend game time beyond a pitiful amount. They are always made with care but have mixed execution, but they are NOT distractions from the true goal, they exist to make sonic possible,and they're not even a thing exclusive to it, EVERY 3D PLATFORMER THAT ISN'T MARIO HAS DABBLED IN ALTERNATE CHARACTERS FOR VARIETY AND FILLER BUT ONLY SONIC GETS SHAT ON FOR IT! Nobody seems to complain about the repeated character stages in crash 4 or how the vehicle and animal levels of crash aren't "true crash", no one complains about how slow and easy the puzzle clank sections are in ratchet and clank and they make up a notable part of each game,the only exception to that I can think of is the multiple characters in mario 64 ds that clutter up the star collecting and are not liked, and donkey Kong 64's blatant padding with its alternate characters. 3d platformers and multiple characters have been always intertwined and with fee exceptions the gimmicks weren't bad, just different, the same different that acclaimed franchises have yet there it's not a problem?
The problem with the gimmicks is that they’re taking away from this main formula. If Sonic’s main gameplay formula was rock solid - which it hasn’t been consistent - then these gimmicks would be harmless. However, especially in the case of the werehog where they were introducing a brand new formula with Boost, including this gimmick of the werehog further complicates things. Also, for these gimmicks to be harmless they need to be good, which is subjective sure, but most viewed the werehog as very poorly implemented. Crash 4 and examples like that’s the able to include these gimmicks because they’ve established a rock solid foundation and still deliver on those aspects on top of these new gimmicks.
16:10 man thats such a great point to make, its a problem, because just like with a lot of Kingdom Hearts fans, who constantly find ways to explain away plot holes and terrible writing, it seems as if the fans are just....OKAY with mediocrity, and stagnation, constantly in purgatory, or they ENJOY being blue balled, or maybe they are so delusional that they just love the series so much, that any slight against it is an attack against them. Maybe they are just so used to garbage that anything slightly above garbage is awesome to them, and they will accept it and ignore the other flaws. I was called a KH3 hater for critiquing Kh3, but the interesting thing is that THEY were the ones okay with characters being dragged in the mud. Like you said, I genuinely believe these series (KH and Sonic) HAVE awesome potential to succeed, but the people in charge keep wasting that potential, and aren't thinking smartly about how to move forward, so they keep moving backwards. Your not a hater just for criticizing it, its just that you believe there could be so much MORE we could be getting. Presentation, characters, cutscenes, writing, gameplay. Its a cartoon hedgehog that can run at the speed of sound for shits sake. But it just feels like it'll never really get past the surface, and it'll perpeutally be stuck in blue balled limbo. Sorry if the way I talk sounds weird, my thoughts are disorganized. But basically, yeah I totally agree on the idea of, critiquing something because you love it, and it hurts to see it be treated horribly by the creators, and even more so, see other fans accept the shitty bare minimum and DEFEND it. You just want to see better, and thats not wrong, because you know it can BE better. Because you love it. In my opinion, to accept stagnation and mediocrity is true hatred, because you dont wanna see it develop, your scared to see it develop and take risks so you keep it down while acting like you love it, its dishonest. I think its much better to be able to critique something you love in hopes to make it better. Kind of like forging a sword. But it kind of seems like sonic is such a frankenstein that doesnt have an identity, and the fans cant seem to agree on whats good and whats bad, so thats probably why Sega keeps changing things. It really is a weird state to be in. I have no idea how it could be fixed, I'd say reboot, but thats literally every sonic game. There isnt even an established world. I think Unleashed was the peak of sonic, at least with daytime stages, his character was fine too, and I also believe that if they built on that, it could be awesome. Spark the electric jester 3 is probably an amazing example of what a developed sonic adventure style could have been, maybe you could make a video on that? It was made by basically one person, and looks AMAAAAZING. Kind of pisses me off when people try to make philisophical analysis on Sonic's character in frontiers, because to me, it seems to go nothing further than "I like my friends" bullshit, the presentation and development is so bland, it feels so WEAK in the end, thats the word, WEAK. Sonic and the Secret rings had good development and payoff I think, more emotional weight. I hate sonic at the moment, hes just such a bland goodie two shoes now, I liked when he was a bit of stinker, but still a good guy. ...I dont know man....at least I still got xenoblade.
When you ask what happened between unleashed and forces. I beileve its the fault of the flopped boom marketing push. Toys, decking out toys R Us, tv show that did ok, games that sold and were reviewed horribly. That marketing mustve costed alot, just to fail. So then they didnt have the same capital to develop forces.
I think the reason the Sonic series always seems to stumble just as it seems to be finding its footing is that Sonic Team keeps hitting the same brick wall, that being time and/or budget constraints. I believe Lost World was a result of them realizing that they didn't have the resources to make a new boost game that could top Generations. Then when Lost World failed, they decided to go back to the boost formula, but instead of building off of Generations, they'd build off of the simplest of the boost games, Colors. Limiting Sonic's boost ability and slowing him down so that they wouldn't have to create such large levels. Sonic keeps reinventing itself because each new formula they come up with is either a failure or unsustainable for a team of their size/budget to complete in a reasonable amount of time.
I know it’s not cool to do this but I want to say, it is both incredibly surreal and an honor to see you comment on my video, I’ve followed you on both Twitter and RUclips for a long time now. I agree that the reason they keep seeing a necessity to change is because they are worried about game length, however I believe most people would rather a short but amazing game as opposed to a long but drawn out/weaker one. While it’s clear Sonic Team doesn’t want to take that risk, I believe that if they put the time and resources they allocate to developing these gimmicks/new formulas into refining and adding onto the main boost content, the product and series would be far better off for it. If during Unleashed’s development they decided to make 2-3 more boost stages instead of making the entirety of the werehog’s moveset, levels, etc, I believe the reception from the wider gaming audience would have been far better.
@TheFlipsideShow Wow, I'm kinda shocked you're already familiar with me. It's not often I get recognized by creators when I comment on their videos. I agree with much of what you've got to say. I think Sonic Team's biggest fear is that if the next game in a given formula doesn't somehow outdo its predecessor, then people will lose interest and sales will drop. In the classic era, every game was a huge step up from the previous one, bringing something new to the table and being more ambitious. The same could be said for SA2 in comparison to SA1. Sonic Unleashed had set the groundwork for a new formula, but due to its mixed reception and sales, Sonic Team had their team size and budget slashed. As a result, Sonic Generations suffered, with the game being much shorter. While the game was well received, one of its biggest criticisms was the length. Sonic Team knew they couldn't make another game on the scale of Unleashed with the resources they had, so back to the drawing board they went. Sonic's speed is such a difficult thing to design for. It inherently makes the games less beginner-friendly (so less likely to attract new audiences) and means that designing levels requires exponentially more resources than something like a Mario level to create a Sonic level that lasts as long as your average Mario level.
Also, to add to this, I don't have much faith in the Frontiers formula for this reason. Huge, open-world-ish games are some of the most difficult, time-consuming, and expensive games to make. It took them 6 years to make Frontiers. A longer development cycle than Zelda Breath of the Wild, and despite that, Frontiers is still incredibly janky, unpolished, and full of poor design choices. This foundation, much like the boost foundation set by Unleashed, is fundamentally flawed, perhaps even more so. Only time will tell, but judging by the Frontiers DLC, I don't think this formula will work out for them in the long run, and we'll probably see some new formula again a couple games from now, most likely inspired by whatever Nintendo's next biggest hit is.
you know i think the inconsistent thing is unique to sonic in a way, idrk how to explain it but it feels like it would be wrong if sonic didn't switch up every once in a while and we kept getting the boost formula with like a couple new things seems a bit boring yk
The boost formula was far from sustainable, or substantial. Due to the sheer size of the environment accounting for Sonic's blistering speeds, it would take far too long for the developers to design each stage. This is probably why every boost game either has added fluff to pad out it's runtime, (Unleashed's Werehog stages, Colors' 2D sections), or would just have a short runtime (Generations, Forces). I also think Forces' game design proved how insubstantial the boost formula was fundamentally, and that it could not be the Sonic series' main play style.
The boost formula has already proved it’s worth and sustainability many times. Forces didn’t prove the problems of the boost formula fundamentally - it was just a poor attempt at the boost formula that did not build on any of it’s strengths. If a hypothetical Sonic Adventure 3 had levels that were straight lines with no platforming you could make this same argument. People will choose quality over quantity, which is something Sega of America doesn’t seem to agree with, or at the very least doesn’t want to rely on. If they spent the time and resources it took them to incorporate these gimmicks and put them instead into adding on and/or improving the main boost aspect in these games, it would be a much better package over all.
To be fair to sonic team, Mario isn't a perfect counterexample, since the 3D series games are a completely different playstyle to the mainline titles, and Mario had the New smb series too, what a Mario game is is far harder to neatly define than a mainline 3d Mario game
This vid made me think of Final fantasy actually. Lets take the latest games; FF13 has ATB (semi-turn based), FF14 is an mmo and FF15+16 are real time combat. 13 is basically sci-fi whereas 16 is medieval fantasy. So consistency in terms of design isn't necessary. The difference is just simply in quality. I wonder if the kids of today love sonic? Idk?
That would be so crazy if a RUclipsr made a video on his channel! Maybe if that channel was called “The Flipside” and maybe is the video was called “The Death and Resurgence of Final Fantasy!” Jokes aside I completely agree with you. I even made a video about it called just that detailing that point!
Oh trust me, kids today love sonic!! I babysit a lot of children (6-10) and i always bring my switch in case of rain. Pokemon and sonic are ALWAYS chosen but if they play pokemon first theyll 100% move to sonic quickly (switch pokemon games have really slow intros). For the most part, frontiers is a hit!! It really changed my perspective on the game bc yeah if kids get THAT much enjoyment out of it stuff that bugs me isnt that important :) When we stop playing, most of the times i have to playfight as the bosses so sonic (the kid) can deafeat me its really fun lmao The new show prime isnt as popular since they forget it exists but they go crazy for the movies!!! (also idk if kids like the comics since barely anyone reads comics where i live)
What a video! But I would like to know your opinions on the addition of Tails, Knuckles and Amy in the 3° update. Does it make you excited or worried for the future of the Open Zone formula?
I think everyone is just glad to finally have them playable again. That being said, there are certain quirks to them that don’t always feel great. Amy feels great, tails feels good for the most part, knuckles I would really love if the delay before his glide was removed. However, going forward I hope sonic is still the priority and if dev time/assets are spent on anything it should be dedicated to perfecting him.
@@TheFlipsideShow Makes sense, but I don't want them to feel like "crappier sonics" y'know. I also think Frontiers does it pretty well (aside from these quirks you mentioned), but if they are going to include these characters as playable in the next game, I just hope Sonic Team makes them very distinct from one another and Sonic (like removing the homing attack from Knuckles and Amy, I personally don't like this).
What is actually consistent about 3D Mario? Like we've gone from collectathon TO doing linear mission in levels designed like collecthon levels TO doing 3 linear missions in levels with 3 paths TO linear levels TO collecthon again. Seems to me that Mario can't decide between being a collecthon or being linear. And sure you can always walkjump, but the same can't be said for diving, long jumping, sideflipping, jump kicks, or triple jumping. When a 3d Mario game comes out all that we know is that it will have jumping, wall jumping, and backflips. We know nothing about the level design, structure, or controls. What is consistent?
wow these videos are awesome, got some more qued up. I love how adamant you are in your opinions, and defiant when you say them. Because its super true how people just cover their eyes and just ACCEPT that sonic is bad and praise it for doing barely the bare minimum, super frustrating. Kinda like when people try to explain to you that the writing in current Kingdom Hearts is actually good. (I'm still kind of a KH fan, but I dont care much for the current part of the series.) anyways, awesome work, I just subbed and I'm gonna watch more. Used to love sonic, but he just seems so bland now, and like you say, inconsistent. Hes also super lame as a character. I think storybook sonic was the best version of him as a character
Ever since sonic 06, the series has been filled with disappointment with fans and critics alike. And games like Sonic Unleashed got underserved hate for it because of 06 and critics like Ign are the main reason for that because despite the wherehog having long levels, the combat is really fun, the Modern Sonic Levels besides Generations and the best story before Frontiers. One bad thing in a Sonic Game shouldn’t determine the overall score for the game or take away the enjoyment you had from the better part of the game. Then we got Colors and Generations that brought fans back to the franchise and both were solid games. For some weird reason, Sega decided to drop the boost formula and give us lost world which people disliked despite the game being kind of creative with the parkour and cool level environments that take a crap on forces. They came back strong with Mania but went back to mediocracy with Forces and ruined the boost formula which became boost to win and Classic Sonic was the worst part of the game. Thankfully, Frontiers had A LOT more effort put into it than Forces and it seemed like Sega was actually listening to the criticism and gave us something to forward too for Sonic with the open world gameplay. And I played that game for 2 hours straight when I got it for Christmas and I couldn’t stop playing it ever since. The environments, The gameplay, the soundtrack, the characters and now dlc?? This is the most fun I’ve had in a sonic Game since Mania, origins and Generations. Yea Sonic had a rough transition to 3d(Mario kinda did too cause 64 didn’t age well either), Yes he is inconsistent asf and yea he has some games that range From Great to Bad games but if you look at all the mainline games together, it’s not that bad and their is actually more good to ok sonic games than bad ones imo.
While concistency can help a serie grow in and out of itself, inconcistency can also be in it's favour. I myself prefer sonic games to mario games, because of the big variety of gameplay styles that it offers. If i start to get bored of the gameplay of, example, sonic unleashed, i can pick up sonic adventure and that will feel more fresh expirience because it's a different gameplay style, this is a comodity that series like mario don't have, if you don't like one, it's more likely that you don't like all of them (unless we count the spin-off, but in that case then mario should also be considered inconsistent) I would consider frontiers to not be building upon older foundation, but to again be a new formula altogether, with details from previous formulas present, but for the most part it being it's own thing, but i don't belive that's a bad thing for the reason i described above.
us sonic fans love mainline games because we want boost levels and we don't want anything like sonic team racing. All we want are remasters of older sonic games and a racing game symilar to sonic riders.
10:22 That's not a mystery at all. The devs outright said they didn't boost was going to carry game because it'd be monotonous and very short so they added the werehog portion to extent playtime. Make it easy and fun like God of War, everyone loves and played God of War at the time. Everyone wants to be like God of War, and all of a sudden everyone is a retard mashing straight punch and asking why it's so slow. Sega's mistake with all of this was assuming people wouldn't be so fucked, stupid and useless that making an engaging combat system was a sure fire alternative. And since everyone wanted to act like some dumb bratty child who wants nothing but Sonic, guess what happened in their next big project (Colors).
I understand that, it still doesn’t change its oddity of an inclusion. I personally think if they used the time and assets it took to make all of the werehog segments (mechanics/levels/etc) and spent it into making a few more daytime stages - the game would have been far better off for it. Personally, and I’ll be attacked for this, I don’t mind the werehog levels that much and some I even enjoy a fair amount. But for a game that was introducing a new formula, it should have dedicated itself fully to that formula.
@@TheFlipsideShow They couldn't. No amount of extra time or extra effort devoted to that was going to push the day stages further than all of the post ACT 1 stages did. The levels were getting too big and too much for either system they were made for. And it gets more telling with the Werehog. With stretchy arms, there's totally ways to go fast, but they were so committed to the whole GoW shitck, the most we get is the sprint and sprinting attacks. Hell they had no problem making every heavy character fast before. And then you look at Colors, then Sonic 4, then you look at Generations. It gets clearer and clearer. Those devs were lost and confused that whole time. Aside from finally accepting that the Sonic they made for Adventure and 3D was never going to fit in where old Sonic used to be. They were so lost and confused to the point it's no wonder why there was no actual evolution to Sonic until Sonic Mania where someone else shed some light and insight on it.
Obligatory not a game dev out the way. but you kinda put into perspective how silly sonic team is when it comes to developing sonic games. Like how mario keeps progressing off the basis of what they esablished in 64. sonic keeps changing it up... but it would be literally easier for them to develop for of they just stuck to something that worked. you dont have to rewrite how sonic feels to play every time you make a game. why does sonic have a different "Feel" every game. unleashed sonic doesnt feel the same as colors. lost world doesnt feel the same as adventure. so on and so forth. but frontiers is showing us that all they really had to do is just keep reuising the style and physics from adventure. and just build upon it. they dont have to keep remaking the same game. literally all of sonics gameplay elements can work in the adventure formula. maybe not all at the same time, but they can work.
Hot take, but I honestly think the Boost was a natural evolution of the Adventure formula. Ever since SA2 the series had been transforming from a platformer with a focus on using physics to manipulate level design to a spectacle platformer where the goal is to quickly react to incoming objects and do as many cool things as possible to earn an A rank. Unleashed is simply the final realization of Sonic fully transitioning from its physics-based roots to a full on spectacle platformer. Frontiers with its spindash and Update 3's increased focus on ramps in its level design is the first time in ~22 years they've gone back to Sonic being about the former, using physics to manipulate the level design.
This is also exactly what nativefall said " sonic team keeps trying to change what's been good bcuz of a terrible game every we turn around sonic keeps taking new directions constantly and i may say sonic boost or adventure formula were the best or worse or mid or bad as a concrete opinion but the true answer is sonic team throws way things that are good cuz of something bad they say they will learn their mistakes but no sega corporate s'poor management as almost killed this franchise but sonic team is also lazy , we miss old sega even out they were greedy but at least decent management until sonic adventure even out after sonic 3 , sonic entered its first growing pains years with these obscure handled spin offs , The true conclusion is After mario was beantup by sonic 1 Nintendo decided to do war ofc but not making mario involved wth the console wars so it gave the mario team time to study the growth of the gaming industry but also plan things for the next ultimate mario game so Nintendo said they will stop putting matio everywhere and detach itself from mario to be less greedy corporate and guarantee good quality games Nintendo were conscious about the console wars and the negative impact it can cause to the their IPs so this explains why mario had its first 5 year gap between mario World and Mario RPG and these 5 yrs were spinoffs like yoshi educational games Tetris Attack , mario educational games explains why mario 3d games are always successful it because they are mostly consistent thanks to Mario 64 to build upon 64 But sega other hand were constantly putting sonic everywhere making him involved in console wars whoch caused the negative impact , in the franchise and caused sega to be greedy which caused time constraints , stupid partnerships , commercial reasons to scrap original plans for genesis games like sonic 2 , sonic 3&k Having inconsistent management being in Japan to America then japan to America to Japan i mean classic games have been exept s1 , sCD terribly managed And caused sonic team to be separated And giving sonic to third party devs to create wide of terrible obscure spin offs wth poor quality while in Japan sonic team devlopped nights into dreams then after the rise 'n' fall of the Saturn, failure of 32x , sega got sonic back home in japan and sonic team became big enough to produce sonic R and Sonic adventure , sonic adventure 2 then failure of Dreamcast sega almost going bankrupt and saved by a former director that died in 2000 due to cancer and after yuji naka became a dick to the industry sega made corporate restructures and poor management economy problems that lead to people getting fired from Sega and sonic jumps multimedia then not fail but mid selled due heroes being a one dimensional game of it being bad or good or mid and poor lizuka suffered making this game and after sonic heroes relased he took break and 2003-2004 were the years of Sonic wth sonic X , sonic bootleg low budget leapster games , advance trilogy , anyway then rise and fall of Sonic 06 , the praise of unleashed despite the bad reviews , the success of colors and generations , the success of classic games 2011 - 2013 remake , the failure of lost world , the failure of Sonic 4 , the failure of Sonic boom , the rise and fall of forces , the success of mania , the rise and fall and rise and success of the sonic movie upcoming trilogy , the almost failure and rise fall and rise success of frontiers , rise and fall of Sonic mania This is exactly why this franchise is inconsistent by constantly changing to be in the wrong directions thanks to a incompetent clueless dev team like sonic team and a greedy proud corporate soulless company like sega . If sonic team was an indie independent studio this franchise would've been so much better and actually Evolve in good directions like by a mile . The problems is Mario Nintendo are consistent and smart and they innovate But Sonic sega Sonic is a disorganized inconsistent mess of a franchise especially with modern games wth a once was great team of devs but now have fallen since and are incompetent nowdays like sonic team thanks to sega chaotic environment of economic problems , greed , failed partnerships , poor corporate management. I still like sonic especially with frontiers and final horizon update kinda ruined the game thanks to kishimoto listening to toxic fans but hope next game they will not screw up , if so then kiss goodbye this franchise cuz its gonna re- enter its dark ages again.
Ehhhh, I can't say I agree with you on that last bit. Great foundation? No, not at all. A great concept but very lacking in execution. I can sum it up by paraphrasing a comment I once saw: Ya know, I think I'll just play Adventure instead. I think fans have been so starved for consistency and overall quality for so long that everyone wants to treat Frontiers like it is this groundbreaking formula that just needs some tweaks in the sequel to be truly incredible. No, that is not the case. I could say that for Adventure 2 and I could say that for Unleashed but Frontiers is a different kind of "mess" altogether. Its not an awful game by any means and proves to be better than Forces, the only game it truly needed to blow out of the water. But when taking everything Frontiers did into account, its baffling to me that fans, including yourself, have this milf to somewhat strong opinion that Frontiers has this great foundation when its very flawed to its core. They'd need to somehow majorly overhaul the engine they've got the game running on or simply make another new engine altogether because many of the issues that game has are inherently baked in. As for its design, it needs a lot of work in nearly every department. I for one wanted to believe that it was this happy marriage of previous gameplay styles of Sonic games but in reality it all came together like someone adding whatever ingredients they had on hand into the soup. Its fine but I certainly don't feel the need to eat it again. That's not what I should feel when playing. Its fine to be hopeful but Frontiers seems to be lacking some harsh amd upfront criticism even almost a year later since its release. For every good thing its done or has recently added, its screwed up something else. Even the options that supposedly alter your control over Sonic feel very minimal after testing and I feel that's more of a limitation of the engine itself making the custom controls questionable at best. This is a good video. I need to say that because I don't want everything I put here to be some rant over Frontiers because I do agree with everything else. I just don't think that Frontiers is this savior of the Sonic game series like other fans seem to think it is. I am well aware that they've mentioned that they do intend on keeping the Frontiers formula but that coupled with overall fan reaction tells me enough that it won't matter in the sequel because nothing actually important is being properly criticized or praised. Well, almost nothing but still. I think combining boost, adventure, and using a decent combat system is the way Sonic should move forward but Frontiers ain't it. It fell short too often in what should've been its strengths to be considered the definitive Sonic formula. I can only hope that someone on the dev team recognizes the failings and doesn't just blindly follow random fan feedback like they always do. Frontiers is a game that should've changed everything but it somehow feels like back to square one, again, and its has me worried about the future not hopeful
Finally someone other then me! I keep seeing fans saying it’s the best formula but i can see through this game… I didn’t even buy the game i watch a lot of videos & can tell that I wasn’t supposed to get my hopes up! I also agree with everything but the last part😒
But at the end of it…. We are outnumbered by people loving this games formula or delusion of a great game, i feel like they are saying these fake reviews & pretending on loving this game to keep sonic alive, maybe they don’t want to admit that this game failed? But I’m gonna get hate for saying what i think 😂
It’s clear at this point that Adventure isn’t coming back. So if what we have now is Frontiers, then at the very least I’d like to see them remain consistent and make something you view as mediocre - into something maybe quite universally viewed as great. I agree that Frontiers isn’t perfect, but from what we’ve gotten the last few years it is the most consistent game we’ve received. Hopefully they continue to build on it now so these issues you’ve described can be fixed or omitted.
@@TheFlipsideShow I agree on the idea that Frontiers concept should be built upon as the potential for it is not only there but should be pursued. However, based on how Frontiers turned out on both a technical level and gameplay wise, I don't think Sonic Team will capitalize on that potential. The reason I say that is one, I don't think enough fans have given proper feedback on everything it didn't do right or fell short of for them to recognize these issues and two, the game engine they're using is inherently flawed which means in order to fully realize the execution of a greater and more refined Frontiers formula they'd have to create a new engine altogether which unfortunately, I don't think they'll do for a long time. Even if they do, there's a good chance that by then, they'll have moved on from Frontiers formula. Overall, I agree that Frontiers has the making of something great but I disagree that Sonic Team has what it takes to actually capitalize on that potential and make something not just better but a *real* definitive Sonic experience. Honestly, I wish they'd come to realize that the answer to this long struggle of consistency for Sonic is incredibly simple and a lot easier than they realize. As for me, I'm very much a realist when it comes to these things. I don't have faith in Sonic Team because I believe there are tangible reasons why a sequel to Frontiers won't actually fix the many issues it has. As sad as it is, I don't think it's going to be as simple as waiting to see the sequel fix these problems. Not when so many of them exist already
I say this as a Sonic fan: The last good game from sonic was Sonic Mania, it looks like Superstars is gonna be the next good game, but i can't help but feel disappointed that its taking this long for them to gain their footing in 3D, Frontiers was a start, but that game has plenty of issues within itself and the DLC didn't really fix anything other than the ending. I just hope they get it right next time
I agree with this video but to say his games are some of the most innovative games in the industry is utter bollox. Marios games are safe, good but safe and thats why they succeed.
The entire argument of "Sega kept trying different things after the praise daytime Unleashed got" falls apart when you realize Unleashed WASN'T PRAISED AT ALL. At launch, some websites like IGN gave it a worse review than 06 (IGN gave 06 a 5, Unleashed got a 4). It's critic slam after critic slam that made Sega keep trying different things. Online discourse and shitty reviews are absolutely to blame, at least partially, for Sonic's constant changes. EDIT: Oh god, the Yakuza comparison. So, Yakuza still "fels like the same series" despite completely changing and turning into an RPG, but Sonic having a boost instead of a spindash is a totally different thing so we cannot say for sure what a Sonic game is. Brilliant.
Unleashed’s daytime segments were praised by many critics upon release. Werehog was severely criticized. Yakuza - nor any series - is not completely defined by it’s combat system. Yakuza 7 still has components such as the mini games, tone, story, and many other aspects that make Yakuza “Yakuza.” On top of this, Yakuza only changed after it had several competent games under its belt and wanted to switch things up. Not really sure what you were trying to say here.
I think frontiers concepts have potential, but the execution is pretty flat. The combat is super tedious and hard for me to enjoy. The "open zones" don't offer any interesting level designs. The platforming challenges spread across the zones can be boiled down to just rails, springs, and balloons, and trying to tackle them along the way to your destination is frustrating because it's impossible to tell where these short detours will take you. The cyber space stages lack creativity, seeing how a huge chunk of them are recycled stage layouts from older sonic games. Having jumps kill your speed and momentum has to be the biggest game designer fail I've seen in a long time, too.
Fortunately they have amended the aspects you’ve disliked already such as the jump killing momentum (that was a HUGE one!) But yes I completely agree with you that Frontiers isn’t perfect - however the formula like you’ve said has potential. It just requires sonic team to stick with this now and iron out those kinks - as opposed to simply throwing them away and replacing it with something else entirely.
@cmn9595 try the second combat trial in the new dlc and tell cylooping the same 4 enemies over and over and over and over and over and over again isn't tedious. And tell me the squids path isn't obnoxiously long and slow to get through at the start of the game
How is the combat hard and tedious? Its the most easiest thing that lets you create your own cool combos on enemies while making you try different moves sonic has in his kit. I wish unleashed did this but tpyiu can beat the night mode with just ignoring all of sonic's cool and flashy moves by just doing one move.
That "prove me wrong, sonic, please" in the end actually hit pretty hard... But somehow, I have a different feeling this time ❤❤🔥🔥
I felt held back tears from that sentence😭
Amazing video, I'm hoping that both Sega and Sonic Team see the success of frontiers both commercially and critically (by fans) that they need to stick with this formula and just fix some small issues and keep building upon it for future 3D games
LETS FUCKING GO ANOTHER GOATED FLIPSIDE VIDEO!! Bro this was one of your greatest yet, I was hoping the video would never end. This was structured so well and the comedic jokes were spliced in perfectly. The comparisons to other franchises like Mario were great when considering how Sonic should look in the future and how it NEEDS a firm establishment as a series. I haven’t had a ton of experience with Sonic games, only a few, but even from my perspective I can see that it lags behind in foundation. I think this video is amazing and calls upon the importance of foundation needed when developing Sonic games. I could truly feel your enthusiasm for the series and how much you love this franchise throughout the video. Incredible job as always man!!
Love you brother, thank you as always your support means the world to me!
I do think it’s worth mentioning that the boost formula physics, specifically in cyberspace, are still very stiff and restricting compared to unleashed, generations, and colors and that if they want to transition to making things more open while fusing adventure with boost, there should be a lot less forced 2d sections
Absolutely, I agree 100%. That would require them however to still stick with this formula and improve upon it, and hopefully in the next game we’re not seeing some brand new gameplay style separate from what Frontiers has given us.
Huh? With performance sliders + better movement tech, I think Frontier’s Cyber Space is more controllable than Unleashed and Colors. I genuinely think the Cyber Space exp shits all over Colors and it’s Mario platforming.
@@ViltrumiteIsRite99The sliders do nothing in cyberspace
@@evdestroy5304 Didn’t update 2 say that open world stats translate to Cyber space? That’s why everyone is abusing spindash for speed runs.
@@ViltrumiteIsRite99 The spindash can be used in cyberspace, but no the sliders still don't affect anything.
I love this! Such a well done video! Glad i found this in the depths of my recommended section.
I fully believe that sonic has remained popular solely because of how well his character is designed
You know it is funny how the New Super Mario Bros series has the opposite problem (too much consistency) and Nintendo is also releasing a new groundbreaking game to spice it up
Exactly! Something wasn’t working, so they changed it. But they didn’t go throwing out the entire formula in order to fix their mistake!
@TheFlipsideShow agreed. As someone who believes sa1 is better than sa2 I probably shouldn't say this (lol) but they really should bring that kind of gameplay back next Sonic game
“I’ve played more sonic frontiers than any other sonic games in the last ten years.”
Bro The last sonic game I played was 12 years ago
So relatable indeed!
11:35 I never would've thought to see an image I made on the Sonic subreddit be used on a RUclips video but here we are lmao
Btw I'm not bothered at all, I appreciate my image being used!
The reason they dropped the boost after 2011 is actually pretty understandable. Iizuka himself heavily implied in an interview several years ago that they felt as if they couldn't further innovate on that style exclusively. And I can honestly see why they came to that conclusion, the boost itself is a very limited and binary gameplay style that is more reactionary with very fast paced gameplay.
They cooked with Shadow Generations tho
this video changed my entire prespective on sonic. GOD youre wise
I've been trying to figure out what a sonic is, and now I have my answer.
It's 06 fault. Like literally it was so bad they dropped the Adventure formula, playable characters and serious stories.
It was also there when everyone started throwing shit at the franchise for everything regardless of it's quality
2:10 "Sonic has been around since the 80's"
Where did you get this information from? Even down to prototypes, the earliest prototype we know of for Sonic 1 dates back to 1990.
That was my mistake, the source I used was incorrect. That piece of information was only used to set the stage of my argument however, it doesn’t impact the larger point being made here.
3:12
Ehh, not really. There was a brief time where the New Super Mario Bros. Series was deemed as repetitive and boring despite being well made
Amazing video. You basically capsules every big problem with 3D Sonic for the longest time. All I ever want is to go 10 years later and say “Wow! You kind of look like ass Frontiers compared to the future entries that has build upon the foundation that you set” and not “I was too harsh on you Frontiers” which the cycle we have been going through for the longest time
id argue the ONLY positive of this gameplay difference in every title is a very, very niche situation in which you marathon/play through the whole series. I did this before Frontiers released and enjoyed mastering every varying style of gameplay and it made it way more palatable (to me at least). Not to say its a positive, but it was nice in this case. I do agree with everything as far as I DESPERATELY hope sonic team sticks to this, its the PERFECT base for a truly amazing sequel.
Nice video, just one gripe lol. Sonic hasn’t been around since the 80s, but early 90s
I know I messed that part up, my bad. I don’t think it takes away from the argument though, it just was meant to set the stage of the argument.
@@TheFlipsideShow yeah I know I just heard that and was like “wait a sec” haha, amazing video!
It's funny how I watched this video a year after it was released and I can say that sonic did prove you wrong here's to the future of this character, and hoping that they can keep up this speed. ( also I loved this video)
5:32 you died twice during that cut don’t think we wouldn’t catch that
Btw great video
YESSSIRRRR ANOTHER FIRE VIDEO!!!!!🔥🔥🔥
I enjoy Sonic as a character. The gameplay may be subpar but it's the characters that keeps me enthralled. I can't say that for Mario, character wise. The characters is what brings life into the games and the world of Sonic. Its one of the reasons why I love the Zelda games and Kirby games so much. Because of the characters that breaths life into the world that its established in.
Same.
I truly do feel the gameplay of sonic is on par or even better than that of Mario at it’s high points, the problem is that Sonic’s low points are so incredibly low that it ruins it almost. Mario’s lowest point in comparison is still incredibly high, almost as high as some of Sonic’s highs.
Sonic definitely has Mario beat when it comes to character, I feel like Mario’s character is just that wholesome warm feeling which is strong for sure - but Sonic’s character and attitude is just so in your face and present that it’s hard not to give it to sonic in that regard.
@@TheFlipsideShow I completely agree, Marios gameplay is far better than what Sonic has put out. But I still prefer Sonic over Mario when it comes to hype factor.
Sonic is better than mario, change my mind.
*Oh wait you can't*
Breaking down the game design, Frontiers has a ton of problems for sure, but also some of the best ideas they've ever had. And many of them come from the updates, which suggest that they listened to feedback in a GOOD WAY for once.
But the question of whether they will recognize it and be able to evolve the Frontiers formula remains... And it always feels like they're heavily constrained by budget or deadlines.
Ikr they need staff to cause the animation is really low in cutscenes plus sa3 might be using this formula
I will accept no Tail's Adventure slander! 🤣
Probably the next mainline game will be Featuring a Werehog gameplay on Stages like Sonic Lost World, however Sonic has a gun now.
really good video, with really good arguments
deserves more attention
Thank you so much! I really appreciate it!
I agree with some things here. But there's also a lot of internal stuff that went wrong. I believe contracts for certain games, third-party pushing deadlines, restructuring of the company, and such. Or so I've read.
Basically Sega is a very hectic place to work. But thankfully it's mostly calmed down now.
The director of Frontiers is actively taking player feedback for the next game, so here's hoping.
Ps: Black Knight, and boom are spinoffs, so I wouldn't count those as gameplay inconsistencies.
im excited to see what sonic team has next for 3d sonic. an improvement on the frontiers formula, maybe with better physics, more diverse levels, and some more adventure flair would be a dream. great video, you nailed all your points
Despite how buggy Update 3 for Frontiers was, I really hope they stick with the Open Zone formula and not immediately go to Sonic Adventure 3 next. It feels like that’s what they’ve been hinting at, and I don’t think it should be made.
I think Sonic nowadays excels in an open sandbox styled game. Frontiers has such a great foundation, and if it’s followed up with for the next game with incredible locales, superb level design, and even crazier spectacle, we could have the best 3D Sonic game ever made.
update 3 hd no 2d segments in the open world or new cyberspace levels which is great. the new towers had some great end game platforming and the final boss was as epic as anything in the 2000s games. they need to refine and build just like you said but update 3 was a great start and we didn't even have to wait till a new release.
For me, Frontiers is the best Sonic game ever made. So I can't be disappointed for future games I guess
They really overtuned the difficulty, but I appreciate that they tried to make bosses actually utilize the combat mechanics instead of platforming gimmicks. There's some great ideas there, they just need time to playtest and polish it.
2:11 Im pretty sure he has only been around since the 90s. Rad Mobile and Sonic 1 came out in 1990 and 1991 respectively
THANK YOU. THANK YOU. Finally someone says it. I’ve been thinking this for awhile. Sonics biggest flaw as a gaming franchise is its lack of consistency. It chooses to build a house with boards but never uses the screws to lock it in. With every new game I see sonic just becoming a shell of inconsistencies and mediocrity.
I really hope that one day the devs wake up and have a crash bandicoot moment and realize where the franchise has been going isn’t going to work and they just scrap everything And start from adventure 1 and 2.
It Feels So Strange To Say This But... I Have Hope For The Future Of Sonic.
With Ian Flynn Being Head Writer And Having A Lore Management Team. I Think The Inconsistencies Are Going To Be Less Common.
Sonic's Future Is Looking Brighter, I'm Just Praying They Don't Mess It Up.
I truly hope Flynn sticks around for a while, while at the same time I hope Sega allows him to spread his wings even more and do what he wants with a Sonic story. Personally I think the tone in Unleashed is my favorite balance between lighthearted and serious and if we could see his take on something like that - it’d be amazing to see.
@@TheFlipsideShow I Mean, We Know Ian Can Produce Some "Dark" Stories.
*cough* Metal Virus *cough*
So Yeah, I Hope He Sticks Around! He Could Create Something Really Amazing If Given Enough Time (No Stupid Mandates)
The only complaint i has about Frontiers is that i cant go back to Generations without being confused what the boost button is. RT fits so well. Frontiers been having my attention for a while now and couldnt be happier with Sonics comeback. I hope they maintain the newfound streak.
Isnt that literally the Sonic cycle? People think its a "comeback" and then the entire thing gets redone and they change everything instead of building upon it? Dont get your hopes up, people have been using the word comeback, and "back to sonic's roots" for a while. Which means even after over 30 years, hes still unable to find his footing, and has to keep making "comebacks" . Personally frontiers looks extremely bland
I remember a while ago there was a video someone made in which they proposed a new formula for sonic, and one of the many ideas was giving sonic a “run” button like on the gears of a cars. While Lost World did this to an extent, I think Frontiers is proof that the concept has weight. I agree that boost on trigger is such a natural feeling and it is crazy how quickly I adapted to it after years and years of boost gameplay being on facebuttons.
@@ZaiDrizzleDropI mean superstars is dropping like tommorow and it looks fire the cycle do not exist
@@ZaiDrizzleDropThe director himself has already confirmed the they'll be sticking with this formula for the next ten years.
He's been very vocal on Twitter and has been responding to feedback, lol people messaging him on Twitter is literally the reason the Spindash is in the game, it's very clear they've learn their lesson.
Although I won't blame you for being pessimistic.
@@ZaiDrizzleDropbecause they were under staff the animation is really low if you look at it they need more staff on animation
I believe in you Sonic.
THEY INDEED BUILT UPON FRONTIERS WE'RE SO BACK
The Open Zone Formula is a Great Foundation that SEGA has Stated they will be going forward with. Unfortunately, Frontiers is so flawed when it comes to actually utilizing it (All the Level Design is Completely Linear and Separate from the island) that I’m not sure if they’ll actually know how to build upon it.
Well at least we know they can pull off some really good platforming after the second and three update, which makes me mad happy ngl
@@frontiersmodel4781 Yes but the Problem is it’s completely separate from the Open Zone, at that Point why not just make another Linear, Level Based Game. At least then we would be getting the Best Parts without any of the Filler.
@@Terminal_Apotos Yeah completely agree, hope they manage to make an actual cohesively designed open zone instead of like cheesing the skies with fun but goofy platforming sections.
This deserves more views (and needs them so the right people can find it lol)
Sonic has not been around since the 80s bruh. 91 he's a 90s baby
Contrary to popular opinion Sonic did not change that much. Each formula has three games and boost is actually the exception for being the longest standing style. 1,cd,2,3 are Classic, sa1, 2,06 are adventure and heroes is in between, and unleashed, colors, gens and forces are boost, with lost world as the biggest oddball in series history.
The werehog exists solely to appeal to action game fans of the time and to fill up game time but it was a fun playstyle regardless. Boom was a jak clone trying to create a new slate for sonic or a potential side series to fill up slots between the real releases. IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO MAKE A FULL SONIC GAME BECAUSE HE'S TOO FAST. he covers too much ground, the other characters have to reuse assets and cover similar ground more slowly to extend game time beyond a pitiful amount. They are always made with care but have mixed execution, but they are NOT distractions from the true goal, they exist to make sonic possible,and they're not even a thing exclusive to it, EVERY 3D PLATFORMER THAT ISN'T MARIO HAS DABBLED IN ALTERNATE CHARACTERS FOR VARIETY AND FILLER BUT ONLY SONIC GETS SHAT ON FOR IT!
Nobody seems to complain about the repeated character stages in crash 4 or how the vehicle and animal levels of crash aren't "true crash", no one complains about how slow and easy the puzzle clank sections are in ratchet and clank and they make up a notable part of each game,the only exception to that I can think of is the multiple characters in mario 64 ds that clutter up the star collecting and are not liked, and donkey Kong 64's blatant padding with its alternate characters.
3d platformers and multiple characters have been always intertwined and with fee exceptions the gimmicks weren't bad, just different, the same different that acclaimed franchises have yet there it's not a problem?
I hate the Sonic bias, my Blue boy deserves MUCH better, than to be compared to an fat plumber >:(
@@the_blue_jay_raptorI mean said fat plumber is the biggest gaming franchise to this day the fact Sonic is still being compared to Mario is a win imo
The problem with the gimmicks is that they’re taking away from this main formula. If Sonic’s main gameplay formula was rock solid - which it hasn’t been consistent - then these gimmicks would be harmless. However, especially in the case of the werehog where they were introducing a brand new formula with Boost, including this gimmick of the werehog further complicates things. Also, for these gimmicks to be harmless they need to be good, which is subjective sure, but most viewed the werehog as very poorly implemented. Crash 4 and examples like that’s the able to include these gimmicks because they’ve established a rock solid foundation and still deliver on those aspects on top of these new gimmicks.
16:10 man thats such a great point to make, its a problem, because just like with a lot of Kingdom Hearts fans, who constantly find ways to explain away plot holes and terrible writing, it seems as if the fans are just....OKAY with mediocrity, and stagnation, constantly in purgatory, or they ENJOY being blue balled, or maybe they are so delusional that they just love the series so much, that any slight against it is an attack against them. Maybe they are just so used to garbage that anything slightly above garbage is awesome to them, and they will accept it and ignore the other flaws.
I was called a KH3 hater for critiquing Kh3, but the interesting thing is that THEY were the ones okay with characters being dragged in the mud. Like you said, I genuinely believe these series (KH and Sonic) HAVE awesome potential to succeed, but the people in charge keep wasting that potential, and aren't thinking smartly about how to move forward, so they keep moving backwards.
Your not a hater just for criticizing it, its just that you believe there could be so much MORE we could be getting. Presentation, characters, cutscenes, writing, gameplay. Its a cartoon hedgehog that can run at the speed of sound for shits sake. But it just feels like it'll never really get past the surface, and it'll perpeutally be stuck in blue balled limbo.
Sorry if the way I talk sounds weird, my thoughts are disorganized.
But basically, yeah I totally agree on the idea of, critiquing something because you love it, and it hurts to see it be treated horribly by the creators, and even more so, see other fans accept the shitty bare minimum and DEFEND it. You just want to see better, and thats not wrong, because you know it can BE better. Because you love it.
In my opinion, to accept stagnation and mediocrity is true hatred, because you dont wanna see it develop, your scared to see it develop and take risks so you keep it down while acting like you love it, its dishonest. I think its much better to be able to critique something you love in hopes to make it better. Kind of like forging a sword.
But it kind of seems like sonic is such a frankenstein that doesnt have an identity, and the fans cant seem to agree on whats good and whats bad, so thats probably why Sega keeps changing things. It really is a weird state to be in. I have no idea how it could be fixed, I'd say reboot, but thats literally every sonic game. There isnt even an established world.
I think Unleashed was the peak of sonic, at least with daytime stages, his character was fine too, and I also believe that if they built on that, it could be awesome.
Spark the electric jester 3 is probably an amazing example of what a developed sonic adventure style could have been, maybe you could make a video on that? It was made by basically one person, and looks AMAAAAZING.
Kind of pisses me off when people try to make philisophical analysis on Sonic's character in frontiers, because to me, it seems to go nothing further than "I like my friends" bullshit, the presentation and development is so bland, it feels so WEAK in the end, thats the word, WEAK. Sonic and the Secret rings had good development and payoff I think, more emotional weight.
I hate sonic at the moment, hes just such a bland goodie two shoes now, I liked when he was a bit of stinker, but still a good guy. ...I dont know man....at least I still got xenoblade.
Had me going with the tails adventure
That formula needs to come back if we want this series to have a future. /s
@@TheFlipsideShowtails adventure is actually the 3rd adventure game
Mario also went to a open world. Just like frontiers
When you ask what happened between unleashed and forces. I beileve its the fault of the flopped boom marketing push. Toys, decking out toys R Us, tv show that did ok, games that sold and were reviewed horribly. That marketing mustve costed alot, just to fail. So then they didnt have the same capital to develop forces.
amazing video
0:50 Sonic just got shinjied
Sonic released in 91 bud
I think the reason the Sonic series always seems to stumble just as it seems to be finding its footing is that Sonic Team keeps hitting the same brick wall, that being time and/or budget constraints. I believe Lost World was a result of them realizing that they didn't have the resources to make a new boost game that could top Generations. Then when Lost World failed, they decided to go back to the boost formula, but instead of building off of Generations, they'd build off of the simplest of the boost games, Colors. Limiting Sonic's boost ability and slowing him down so that they wouldn't have to create such large levels. Sonic keeps reinventing itself because each new formula they come up with is either a failure or unsustainable for a team of their size/budget to complete in a reasonable amount of time.
I know it’s not cool to do this but I want to say, it is both incredibly surreal and an honor to see you comment on my video, I’ve followed you on both Twitter and RUclips for a long time now.
I agree that the reason they keep seeing a necessity to change is because they are worried about game length, however I believe most people would rather a short but amazing game as opposed to a long but drawn out/weaker one. While it’s clear Sonic Team doesn’t want to take that risk, I believe that if they put the time and resources they allocate to developing these gimmicks/new formulas into refining and adding onto the main boost content, the product and series would be far better off for it.
If during Unleashed’s development they decided to make 2-3 more boost stages instead of making the entirety of the werehog’s moveset, levels, etc, I believe the reception from the wider gaming audience would have been far better.
@TheFlipsideShow Wow, I'm kinda shocked you're already familiar with me. It's not often I get recognized by creators when I comment on their videos. I agree with much of what you've got to say. I think Sonic Team's biggest fear is that if the next game in a given formula doesn't somehow outdo its predecessor, then people will lose interest and sales will drop. In the classic era, every game was a huge step up from the previous one, bringing something new to the table and being more ambitious. The same could be said for SA2 in comparison to SA1. Sonic Unleashed had set the groundwork for a new formula, but due to its mixed reception and sales, Sonic Team had their team size and budget slashed. As a result, Sonic Generations suffered, with the game being much shorter. While the game was well received, one of its biggest criticisms was the length. Sonic Team knew they couldn't make another game on the scale of Unleashed with the resources they had, so back to the drawing board they went. Sonic's speed is such a difficult thing to design for. It inherently makes the games less beginner-friendly (so less likely to attract new audiences) and means that designing levels requires exponentially more resources than something like a Mario level to create a Sonic level that lasts as long as your average Mario level.
Also, to add to this, I don't have much faith in the Frontiers formula for this reason. Huge, open-world-ish games are some of the most difficult, time-consuming, and expensive games to make. It took them 6 years to make Frontiers. A longer development cycle than Zelda Breath of the Wild, and despite that, Frontiers is still incredibly janky, unpolished, and full of poor design choices. This foundation, much like the boost foundation set by Unleashed, is fundamentally flawed, perhaps even more so. Only time will tell, but judging by the Frontiers DLC, I don't think this formula will work out for them in the long run, and we'll probably see some new formula again a couple games from now, most likely inspired by whatever Nintendo's next biggest hit is.
@@TheFlipsideShow alsp bcuz of incompetence
2:10 *Early 90s
you know i think the inconsistent thing is unique to sonic in a way, idrk how to explain it but it feels like it would be wrong if sonic didn't switch up every once in a while and we kept getting the boost formula with like a couple new things seems a bit boring yk
The boost formula was far from sustainable, or substantial. Due to the sheer size of the environment accounting for Sonic's blistering speeds, it would take far too long for the developers to design each stage. This is probably why every boost game either has added fluff to pad out it's runtime, (Unleashed's Werehog stages, Colors' 2D sections), or would just have a short runtime (Generations, Forces). I also think Forces' game design proved how insubstantial the boost formula was fundamentally, and that it could not be the Sonic series' main play style.
The boost formula has already proved it’s worth and sustainability many times. Forces didn’t prove the problems of the boost formula fundamentally - it was just a poor attempt at the boost formula that did not build on any of it’s strengths. If a hypothetical Sonic Adventure 3 had levels that were straight lines with no platforming you could make this same argument.
People will choose quality over quantity, which is something Sega of America doesn’t seem to agree with, or at the very least doesn’t want to rely on. If they spent the time and resources it took them to incorporate these gimmicks and put them instead into adding on and/or improving the main boost aspect in these games, it would be a much better package over all.
To be fair to sonic team, Mario isn't a perfect counterexample, since the 3D series games are a completely different playstyle to the mainline titles, and Mario had the New smb series too, what a Mario game is is far harder to neatly define than a mainline 3d Mario game
Sonic team just needs to get, sonic adventure one and two, and slap everthing that makes it bad away, and upgrade on it
This vid made me think of Final fantasy actually. Lets take the latest games; FF13 has ATB (semi-turn based), FF14 is an mmo and FF15+16 are real time combat. 13 is basically sci-fi whereas 16 is medieval fantasy. So consistency in terms of design isn't necessary. The difference is just simply in quality. I wonder if the kids of today love sonic? Idk?
That would be so crazy if a RUclipsr made a video on his channel! Maybe if that channel was called “The Flipside” and maybe is the video was called “The Death and Resurgence of Final Fantasy!”
Jokes aside I completely agree with you. I even made a video about it called just that detailing that point!
Oh trust me, kids today love sonic!! I babysit a lot of children (6-10) and i always bring my switch in case of rain. Pokemon and sonic are ALWAYS chosen but if they play pokemon first theyll 100% move to sonic quickly (switch pokemon games have really slow intros). For the most part, frontiers is a hit!! It really changed my perspective on the game bc yeah if kids get THAT much enjoyment out of it stuff that bugs me isnt that important :) When we stop playing, most of the times i have to playfight as the bosses so sonic (the kid) can deafeat me its really fun lmao The new show prime isnt as popular since they forget it exists but they go crazy for the movies!!! (also idk if kids like the comics since barely anyone reads comics where i live)
Sonic forces life
And by god I’m breathing
What a video! But I would like to know your opinions on the addition of Tails, Knuckles and Amy in the 3° update. Does it make you excited or worried for the future of the Open Zone formula?
I think everyone is just glad to finally have them playable again. That being said, there are certain quirks to them that don’t always feel great. Amy feels great, tails feels good for the most part, knuckles I would really love if the delay before his glide was removed. However, going forward I hope sonic is still the priority and if dev time/assets are spent on anything it should be dedicated to perfecting him.
@@TheFlipsideShow Makes sense, but I don't want them to feel like "crappier sonics" y'know. I also think Frontiers does it pretty well (aside from these quirks you mentioned), but if they are going to include these characters as playable in the next game, I just hope Sonic Team makes them very distinct from one another and Sonic (like removing the homing attack from Knuckles and Amy, I personally don't like this).
This is there chance now to make a frontiers 2
sonics been around since the 90s not 80s ;) and 3d sonic started in sonic R seem pretty rough to me
What is actually consistent about 3D Mario? Like we've gone from collectathon TO doing linear mission in levels designed like collecthon levels TO doing 3 linear missions in levels with 3 paths TO linear levels TO collecthon again.
Seems to me that Mario can't decide between being a collecthon or being linear. And sure you can always walkjump, but the same can't be said for diving, long jumping, sideflipping, jump kicks, or triple jumping.
When a 3d Mario game comes out all that we know is that it will have jumping, wall jumping, and backflips. We know nothing about the level design, structure, or controls. What is consistent?
wow these videos are awesome, got some more qued up. I love how adamant you are in your opinions, and defiant when you say them. Because its super true how people just cover their eyes and just ACCEPT that sonic is bad and praise it for doing barely the bare minimum, super frustrating. Kinda like when people try to explain to you that the writing in current Kingdom Hearts is actually good. (I'm still kind of a KH fan, but I dont care much for the current part of the series.) anyways, awesome work, I just subbed and I'm gonna watch more. Used to love sonic, but he just seems so bland now, and like you say, inconsistent. Hes also super lame as a character. I think storybook sonic was the best version of him as a character
Great video 👍
Ever since sonic 06, the series has been filled with disappointment with fans and critics alike. And games like Sonic Unleashed got underserved hate for it because of 06 and critics like Ign are the main reason for that because despite the wherehog having long levels, the combat is really fun, the Modern Sonic Levels besides Generations and the best story before Frontiers. One bad thing in a Sonic Game shouldn’t determine the overall score for the game or take away the enjoyment you had from the better part of the game. Then we got Colors and Generations that brought fans back to the franchise and both were solid games. For some weird reason, Sega decided to drop the boost formula and give us lost world which people disliked despite the game being kind of creative with the parkour and cool level environments that take a crap on forces. They came back strong with Mania but went back to mediocracy with Forces and ruined the boost formula which became boost to win and Classic Sonic was the worst part of the game. Thankfully, Frontiers had A LOT more effort put into it than Forces and it seemed like Sega was actually listening to the criticism and gave us something to forward too for Sonic with the open world gameplay. And I played that game for 2 hours straight when I got it for Christmas and I couldn’t stop playing it ever since. The environments, The gameplay, the soundtrack, the characters and now dlc?? This is the most fun I’ve had in a sonic Game since Mania, origins and Generations. Yea Sonic had a rough transition to 3d(Mario kinda did too cause 64 didn’t age well either), Yes he is inconsistent asf and yea he has some games that range From Great to Bad games but if you look at all the mainline games together, it’s not that bad and their is actually more good to ok sonic games than bad ones imo.
While concistency can help a serie grow in and out of itself, inconcistency can also be in it's favour.
I myself prefer sonic games to mario games, because of the big variety of gameplay styles that it offers.
If i start to get bored of the gameplay of, example, sonic unleashed, i can pick up sonic adventure and that will feel more fresh expirience because it's a different gameplay style, this is a comodity that series like mario don't have, if you don't like one, it's more likely that you don't like all of them (unless we count the spin-off, but in that case then mario should also be considered inconsistent)
I would consider frontiers to not be building upon older foundation, but to again be a new formula altogether, with details from previous formulas present, but for the most part it being it's own thing, but i don't belive that's a bad thing for the reason i described above.
Why does everyone keep acting like sonic unleashed did terribly back in 2008 😭
us sonic fans love mainline games because we want boost levels and we don't want anything like sonic team racing. All we want are remasters of older sonic games and a racing game symilar to sonic riders.
awesome
Sonic frontiers is going to be the new formula that will be built upon and make better titles.
Sonic gay fanfic?
Absolutely
I’d sure like some
@@TheFlipsideShowwtf
hopefully
Hopefully never
10:22 That's not a mystery at all. The devs outright said they didn't boost was going to carry game because it'd be monotonous and very short so they added the werehog portion to extent playtime.
Make it easy and fun like God of War, everyone loves and played God of War at the time. Everyone wants to be like God of War, and all of a sudden everyone is a retard mashing straight punch and asking why it's so slow. Sega's mistake with all of this was assuming people wouldn't be so fucked, stupid and useless that making an engaging combat system was a sure fire alternative.
And since everyone wanted to act like some dumb bratty child who wants nothing but Sonic, guess what happened in their next big project (Colors).
I understand that, it still doesn’t change its oddity of an inclusion. I personally think if they used the time and assets it took to make all of the werehog segments (mechanics/levels/etc) and spent it into making a few more daytime stages - the game would have been far better off for it.
Personally, and I’ll be attacked for this, I don’t mind the werehog levels that much and some I even enjoy a fair amount. But for a game that was introducing a new formula, it should have dedicated itself fully to that formula.
@@TheFlipsideShow They couldn't. No amount of extra time or extra effort devoted to that was going to push the day stages further than all of the post ACT 1 stages did. The levels were getting too big and too much for either system they were made for. And it gets more telling with the Werehog. With stretchy arms, there's totally ways to go fast, but they were so committed to the whole GoW shitck, the most we get is the sprint and sprinting attacks. Hell they had no problem making every heavy character fast before.
And then you look at Colors, then Sonic 4, then you look at Generations. It gets clearer and clearer. Those devs were lost and confused that whole time. Aside from finally accepting that the Sonic they made for Adventure and 3D was never going to fit in where old Sonic used to be. They were so lost and confused to the point it's no wonder why there was no actual evolution to Sonic until Sonic Mania where someone else shed some light and insight on it.
Obligatory not a game dev out the way. but you kinda put into perspective how silly sonic team is when it comes to developing sonic games. Like how mario keeps progressing off the basis of what they esablished in 64. sonic keeps changing it up... but it would be literally easier for them to develop for of they just stuck to something that worked. you dont have to rewrite how sonic feels to play every time you make a game. why does sonic have a different "Feel" every game. unleashed sonic doesnt feel the same as colors. lost world doesnt feel the same as adventure. so on and so forth.
but frontiers is showing us that all they really had to do is just keep reuising the style and physics from adventure. and just build upon it. they dont have to keep remaking the same game. literally all of sonics gameplay elements can work in the adventure formula. maybe not all at the same time, but they can work.
i love tails adventure
Hot take, but I honestly think the Boost was a natural evolution of the Adventure formula. Ever since SA2 the series had been transforming from a platformer with a focus on using physics to manipulate level design to a spectacle platformer where the goal is to quickly react to incoming objects and do as many cool things as possible to earn an A rank. Unleashed is simply the final realization of Sonic fully transitioning from its physics-based roots to a full on spectacle platformer.
Frontiers with its spindash and Update 3's increased focus on ramps in its level design is the first time in ~22 years they've gone back to Sonic being about the former, using physics to manipulate the level design.
This is also exactly what nativefall said " sonic team keeps trying to change what's been good bcuz of a terrible game every we turn around sonic keeps taking new directions constantly and i may say sonic boost or adventure formula were the best or worse or mid or bad as a concrete opinion but the true answer is sonic team throws way things that are good cuz of something bad they say they will learn their mistakes but no sega corporate s'poor management as almost killed this franchise but sonic team is also lazy , we miss old sega even out they were greedy but at least decent management until sonic adventure even out after sonic 3 , sonic entered its first growing pains years with these obscure handled spin offs ,
The true conclusion is
After mario was beantup by sonic 1 Nintendo decided to do war ofc but not making mario involved wth the console wars so it gave the mario team time to study the growth of the gaming industry but also plan things for the next ultimate mario game so Nintendo said they will stop putting matio everywhere and detach itself from mario to be less greedy corporate and guarantee good quality games Nintendo were conscious about the console wars and the negative impact it can cause to the their IPs so this explains why mario had its first 5 year gap between mario World and Mario RPG and these 5 yrs were spinoffs like yoshi educational games Tetris Attack , mario educational games explains why mario 3d games are always successful it because they are mostly consistent thanks to Mario 64 to build upon 64
But sega other hand were constantly putting sonic everywhere making him involved in console wars whoch caused the negative impact , in the franchise and caused sega to be greedy which caused time constraints , stupid partnerships , commercial reasons to scrap original plans for genesis games like sonic 2 , sonic 3&k
Having inconsistent management being in Japan to America then japan to America to Japan i mean classic games have been exept s1 , sCD terribly managed And caused sonic team to be separated
And giving sonic to third party devs to create wide of terrible obscure spin offs wth poor quality while in Japan sonic team devlopped nights into dreams then after the rise 'n' fall of the Saturn, failure of 32x , sega got sonic back home in japan and sonic team became big enough to produce sonic R and Sonic adventure , sonic adventure 2 then failure of Dreamcast sega almost going bankrupt and saved by a former director that died in 2000 due to cancer and after yuji naka became a dick to the industry sega made corporate restructures and poor management economy problems that lead to people getting fired from Sega and sonic jumps multimedia then not fail but mid selled due heroes being a one dimensional game of it being bad or good or mid and poor lizuka suffered making this game and after sonic heroes relased he took break and 2003-2004 were the years of Sonic wth sonic X , sonic bootleg low budget leapster games , advance trilogy , anyway then rise and fall of Sonic 06 , the praise of unleashed despite the bad reviews , the success of colors and generations , the success of classic games 2011 - 2013 remake , the failure of lost world , the failure of Sonic 4 , the failure of Sonic boom , the rise and fall of forces , the success of mania , the rise and fall and rise and success of the sonic movie upcoming trilogy , the almost failure and rise fall and rise success of frontiers , rise and fall of Sonic mania
This is exactly why this franchise is inconsistent by constantly changing to be in the wrong directions thanks to a incompetent clueless dev team like sonic team and a greedy proud corporate soulless company like sega .
If sonic team was an indie independent studio this franchise would've been so much better and actually Evolve in good directions like by a mile .
The problems is Mario Nintendo are consistent and smart and they innovate
But
Sonic sega
Sonic is a disorganized inconsistent mess of a franchise especially with modern games wth a once was great team of devs but now have fallen since and are incompetent nowdays like sonic team thanks to sega chaotic environment of economic problems , greed , failed partnerships , poor corporate management.
I still like sonic especially with frontiers and final horizon update kinda ruined the game thanks to kishimoto listening to toxic fans but hope next game they will not screw up , if so then kiss goodbye this franchise cuz its gonna re- enter its dark ages again.
1:46p.m. 10/7/2023
Ehhhh, I can't say I agree with you on that last bit. Great foundation? No, not at all. A great concept but very lacking in execution. I can sum it up by paraphrasing a comment I once saw: Ya know, I think I'll just play Adventure instead. I think fans have been so starved for consistency and overall quality for so long that everyone wants to treat Frontiers like it is this groundbreaking formula that just needs some tweaks in the sequel to be truly incredible. No, that is not the case. I could say that for Adventure 2 and I could say that for Unleashed but Frontiers is a different kind of "mess" altogether.
Its not an awful game by any means and proves to be better than Forces, the only game it truly needed to blow out of the water. But when taking everything Frontiers did into account, its baffling to me that fans, including yourself, have this milf to somewhat strong opinion that Frontiers has this great foundation when its very flawed to its core. They'd need to somehow majorly overhaul the engine they've got the game running on or simply make another new engine altogether because many of the issues that game has are inherently baked in.
As for its design, it needs a lot of work in nearly every department. I for one wanted to believe that it was this happy marriage of previous gameplay styles of Sonic games but in reality it all came together like someone adding whatever ingredients they had on hand into the soup. Its fine but I certainly don't feel the need to eat it again. That's not what I should feel when playing. Its fine to be hopeful but Frontiers seems to be lacking some harsh amd upfront criticism even almost a year later since its release. For every good thing its done or has recently added, its screwed up something else. Even the options that supposedly alter your control over Sonic feel very minimal after testing and I feel that's more of a limitation of the engine itself making the custom controls questionable at best.
This is a good video. I need to say that because I don't want everything I put here to be some rant over Frontiers because I do agree with everything else. I just don't think that Frontiers is this savior of the Sonic game series like other fans seem to think it is. I am well aware that they've mentioned that they do intend on keeping the Frontiers formula but that coupled with overall fan reaction tells me enough that it won't matter in the sequel because nothing actually important is being properly criticized or praised. Well, almost nothing but still. I think combining boost, adventure, and using a decent combat system is the way Sonic should move forward but Frontiers ain't it. It fell short too often in what should've been its strengths to be considered the definitive Sonic formula. I can only hope that someone on the dev team recognizes the failings and doesn't just blindly follow random fan feedback like they always do. Frontiers is a game that should've changed everything but it somehow feels like back to square one, again, and its has me worried about the future not hopeful
Finally someone other then me! I keep seeing fans saying it’s the best formula but i can see through this game… I didn’t even buy the game i watch a lot of videos & can tell that I wasn’t supposed to get my hopes up! I also agree with everything but the last part😒
But at the end of it…. We are outnumbered by people loving this games formula or delusion of a great game, i feel like they are saying these fake reviews & pretending on loving this game to keep sonic alive, maybe they don’t want to admit that this game failed? But I’m gonna get hate for saying what i think 😂
It’s clear at this point that Adventure isn’t coming back. So if what we have now is Frontiers, then at the very least I’d like to see them remain consistent and make something you view as mediocre - into something maybe quite universally viewed as great. I agree that Frontiers isn’t perfect, but from what we’ve gotten the last few years it is the most consistent game we’ve received. Hopefully they continue to build on it now so these issues you’ve described can be fixed or omitted.
@@TheFlipsideShow I agree on the idea that Frontiers concept should be built upon as the potential for it is not only there but should be pursued. However, based on how Frontiers turned out on both a technical level and gameplay wise, I don't think Sonic Team will capitalize on that potential. The reason I say that is one, I don't think enough fans have given proper feedback on everything it didn't do right or fell short of for them to recognize these issues and two, the game engine they're using is inherently flawed which means in order to fully realize the execution of a greater and more refined Frontiers formula they'd have to create a new engine altogether which unfortunately, I don't think they'll do for a long time. Even if they do, there's a good chance that by then, they'll have moved on from Frontiers formula.
Overall, I agree that Frontiers has the making of something great but I disagree that Sonic Team has what it takes to actually capitalize on that potential and make something not just better but a *real* definitive Sonic experience. Honestly, I wish they'd come to realize that the answer to this long struggle of consistency for Sonic is incredibly simple and a lot easier than they realize. As for me, I'm very much a realist when it comes to these things. I don't have faith in Sonic Team because I believe there are tangible reasons why a sequel to Frontiers won't actually fix the many issues it has. As sad as it is, I don't think it's going to be as simple as waiting to see the sequel fix these problems. Not when so many of them exist already
I wouldn't call Frontiers a great game, but I'd call it a great foundation
I like sonic 06
I say this as a Sonic fan: The last good game from sonic was Sonic Mania, it looks like Superstars is gonna be the next good game, but i can't help but feel disappointed that its taking this long for them to gain their footing in 3D, Frontiers was a start, but that game has plenty of issues within itself and the DLC didn't really fix anything other than the ending. I just hope they get it right next time
Mania was too hard, Frontiers is better. But I'm not gonna force my opinion onto you, so have a nice day/night :)
yeahhhh about that .... mobile game..
I agree with this video but to say his games are some of the most innovative games in the industry is utter bollox. Marios games are safe, good but safe and thats why they succeed.
The entire argument of "Sega kept trying different things after the praise daytime Unleashed got" falls apart when you realize Unleashed WASN'T PRAISED AT ALL. At launch, some websites like IGN gave it a worse review than 06 (IGN gave 06 a 5, Unleashed got a 4). It's critic slam after critic slam that made Sega keep trying different things. Online discourse and shitty reviews are absolutely to blame, at least partially, for Sonic's constant changes.
EDIT: Oh god, the Yakuza comparison. So, Yakuza still "fels like the same series" despite completely changing and turning into an RPG, but Sonic having a boost instead of a spindash is a totally different thing so we cannot say for sure what a Sonic game is.
Brilliant.
Unleashed’s daytime segments were praised by many critics upon release. Werehog was severely criticized.
Yakuza - nor any series - is not completely defined by it’s combat system. Yakuza 7 still has components such as the mini games, tone, story, and many other aspects that make Yakuza “Yakuza.” On top of this, Yakuza only changed after it had several competent games under its belt and wanted to switch things up.
Not really sure what you were trying to say here.
I think frontiers concepts have potential, but the execution is pretty flat. The combat is super tedious and hard for me to enjoy. The "open zones" don't offer any interesting level designs. The platforming challenges spread across the zones can be boiled down to just rails, springs, and balloons, and trying to tackle them along the way to your destination is frustrating because it's impossible to tell where these short detours will take you. The cyber space stages lack creativity, seeing how a huge chunk of them are recycled stage layouts from older sonic games. Having jumps kill your speed and momentum has to be the biggest game designer fail I've seen in a long time, too.
Fortunately they have amended the aspects you’ve disliked already such as the jump killing momentum (that was a HUGE one!) But yes I completely agree with you that Frontiers isn’t perfect - however the formula like you’ve said has potential. It just requires sonic team to stick with this now and iron out those kinks - as opposed to simply throwing them away and replacing it with something else entirely.
The combat ain’t tedious
@cmn9595 try the second combat trial in the new dlc and tell cylooping the same 4 enemies over and over and over and over and over and over again isn't tedious. And tell me the squids path isn't obnoxiously long and slow to get through at the start of the game
How is the combat hard and tedious? Its the most easiest thing that lets you create your own cool combos on enemies while making you try different moves sonic has in his kit. I wish unleashed did this but tpyiu can beat the night mode with just ignoring all of sonic's cool and flashy moves by just doing one move.
@@Morffin2210 the squid path isnt really bad, you do know you can increase sonic's speed so that he can catch up with squid right?
Adventure isnt good.
You better leave.
@@Vadim-Zヴァディム🤫 thats Mario hiding in that account.
This isn’t a safe space for you my friend
Death by firing squad.
Lies are not allowed