That's journeyman level, not enough for mastery you know. Perhaps you just have the touch. But top tuning is not a myth ,and I suspect as you get more experienced at your craft you'll come to recognize it's value.
Great illustration on voicing guitars. As a violinist 2 of my violins were re voiced by thinning the 8 plates to an approximation of original Stradivarius and Guarnari specs. Also a longer sound board was installed. The result was a louder more complex instrument was created. One disadvantage is that by thinning the interior top and bottom of the instrument can create a weaker instrument more susceptible to top cracks. A decible machine measuring frequencies was also used to tune the plates as well as iron filings used to create a shape known to the great violin models of the past. All this information was due to the great violins of the past being taken apart and carefully measured. I wasn't aware of the complexity of the harmonics in terms of re voicing. I will have to try my harmonic scales to see if I can get cleaner harmonics with my re voiced violins.
Where exactly was the thinning done, in local areas, across the board? I know violins are studied to the micrometer. So it did help. How did you lengthen the soundboard, but simply stretching the ribs out a wee bit? The back not longer? And they did this according to the desired Chladni patterns. That's pretty interesting. Those darn Cremonese masters. Can't beat em.
Ok guys, you are right. He loves his work and loves to talk about it. Just play one of his guitars. You’ll get the picture. He reminds me of my dad, a great violin maker who used to put me to sleep with his theories(not always based on valid scientific research) LOL. I would sit there and listen patiently just waiting to hear him play one of his instruments. Thank you for spending your life bringing us these incredible instruments mr. Bourgeois. A lot of good info here for those of us who are building guitars.
I bought a lot of guitars, and none of the martin guitars could match the single bourgeois acoustic that I bought along the way. Dana offers advice that you can't get anywhere else, and he has nothing but a huge library of excellent guitars to back him up. And "every day" guitars like the Slope D that I bought just from a music store could be duds here or there, but it's not. It's in every way perfect, a visual example of finish work care, and an audible example of someone taking the time to make sure it would sound clear, balanced and strong (rather than saying "well, for $3500, you don't get that treatment, you have to go upgrade to get it". It pains me a little bit to see people in these comments (who have never made anything) criticizing what Dana offers as advice (he wouldn't have to do it at all), because they think they know something vs. Dana proving it on a daily basis. I'm glad to see that you were nice enough to leave a positive comment unlike some of the other people who are more interested in arguing rather than appreciating something nice or making something nice.
I'd "known" about tap tuning but never seen it. Nice to see this demo and be able to actually hear it being done. I prefer the sound of ladder bracing for what I play, but one has to acknowledge the pretty, resonant, and busy harmonic sound of X braced guitars. Thanks for the vid.
Fascinating! I had no idea scalloping the braces would affect the tone & sustain of the guitar. I thought (in my old metal smithing mind) it was purely for weight. The marimba information was amazing. Also the harmonics of a "single note".(I can't imagine the "ear" of the person(s) way back when, who could distinguish that C eventually ended up as C E G, thus giving us the chord. Thank you for this brief teaching, I've learned so much, I never knew. I've played guitar over 50 yrs, transplanted guitar chords to the piano & have faked playing a piano for 30 yrs (had no idea it'd been that long), & bass (had a great teacher who showed me what he called the "magic scales"). This was so interesting, I'm glad I watched this.
NLM.. A big shout out to you guys for making it possible to learn from a wonderful talent as Mr. Bourgeois. I have done a lot of research on violin history and Mr. Jack Fry has revealed a lot of what Mr. Bourgeois covered here in the slide show. I plan on making my first guitar and these videos build confidence. Thank you again..
What a great presentation, I've watched it many times over. There is a very good article about the "physics" of Guitar Acoustics (Guitar Acoustics 101: FROM A TALK TO THE SEATTLE UNIVERSITY PHYSICS CLUB); by Dr. John A Decker, in the Feb 2007 edition of ASIA magazine. Dr. Decker states in this feature article that the complex overtones in the guitar are not measurable by today's measurement devices. I would go on to add that the most sensitive instrument is the Human instrument of Perception, and that perception is a combination of senses and algorithms used in the human machine. Measuring the complex nature of top vibration with scientific instruments is akin to trying to measure love. Top vibrations and love are both known to exist, and both are impossible to accurately model. However, they can both be maximized using the human instrument.
My friend and guitar maker Chris Eccleshall who trained as a violin maker always taps his guitar tops because all wood is different.it gives individuality .he makes no duds. He also said bourgeois guitars are absolutely brilliant
Great vid. A BUNCH of excellent points, well stated. I never realized you were trying to MAXIMIZE harmonics for good sound...interesting. Sounds like a job for a good Finite Element Analysis simulation program...probably done, haven't looked. A couple of observations, and a cute/interesting applicable story, if you haven't heard it (at the end): I don't know why they call the thermal imaging stuff a hologram, but it really isn't. A hologram has to do with light interference patterns that are generated by a split laser, one bounced off a mirron and the other the object, then spread out and captured by transparent very high resolution "film" and typically these two photo transparent patterns are laser lit to re-generate the 3D image, though there are white light holograms, like you see on banking cards. There is more to it than that, but that is the surface level gist of it. The FLIR or thermal image of the vibrating top is just a picture, taken in a slightly different EM spectrum than optical (the heat side, or below the optical spectrum frequency wise). As an engineer, I suspect a laser range finder incorporating a high frequency scan mode might give a MUCH more accurate picture of those lower acting modal vibrations you are talking about that were not measurable earlier. If done right, it might be able to detect much lower amplitude vibrations, and likely at a very fast rate. I would have to look at what's available bandwidth wise and run some numbers to be sure though, might be full of crap. For the chart that "shows everything" impacting everything else, the arrow should ALSO point back to the strings, since the moving body and neck influences those, as well. I suspect if you could look at the whole system you would see resonance modes running from the strings through the body and back again. One obvious way to explain the multinode string vibrations is the technique of lightly touching the string that fingerstylers use to generate those high beautiful harmonic notes. They are just picking the nodal positions of the particular overtone they wish to "keep" (really not damp), and causing it to be the fundamental. I am thinking of building a guitar, and beyond obviously using proper materials and good solid building workmanship, I suspect what you are demonstrating here has as much or more to do with making a GOOD sounding guitar vs. a lousy or average one, than a lot of other aspects builders sometimes fret over (see what I did there, and it wasn't intentional, happens all the time, weird). I saw a special once where a lady (don't remember the name) was trying to build a REAL plastic (carbon fiber) violin. She was working this body nodal stuff to the nth degree, and when she handed the violin to Itsak Pearlman, he looked pretty skeptical, but played on it a bit and declared "It's a violin!". This was either the first or pretty close to the first attempt apparently, and he was obviously surprised, and delighted. One question. Have you done any work in moving/changing (whatever) the hole to see how that affects the vibrational modes? I am starting to see more and more examples of that in guitars, and wondered if there was a reason for it, or if it was just an aesthetics thing. Thanks for the vid, I'm thinking about building a guitar, and this info will be invaluable, I am quite sure. Obviously, I will spend a lot of time watching the luthiers build them and listening to their tips, tricks, and gotchas, as well. Again, thanks for posting. The best example of a beat note I've ever heard is an organ technique where you play two frequencies against each other, and there is a resultant, that is plainly audible, as a note LOWER than any pipe on that organ can play. The interesting part is that there is really no note there, at all. If you try to measure energy at that frequency there is none (my understanding), but your brain perceives it very plainly as that lower note. One of those times where find out what you think you hear (or see, or whatever) isn't actually there, at all, even though your senses clearly say it is. Kinda weird.
The tone of Dana's guitars is unique and wonderful. A large part is that Dana is a master of the obscure art of tuning the top (and, as he mentions, the bottom). This is an insight into the mind that produces the magic. Fascinating . Where can we get a copy of his slide show? There are a few pages I would like to examine in more detail.
Almost all those tap tones heard were centred on the note B. The adjustments focused the tone and its harmonics but didn't change that fundamental pitch to any extent. Exceptions were in the final series presented, one particular place yielded a G-ish tap tone a third below the earlier Bs ( about 42:33 ) and another an E at 42:48 . Classical Gtr makers often aim for that G or even a tone lower, the predominance of the B makes me wonder if steel string guitars aim for something quite different.
You have a really good ear. But Bourgeois guitars don't compare to a run of the mill Martin. They're thin and tight, and IDK something not right. It's the lack of scalloping. You need those nodal points for small local vibrations. (Chladni patterns?) IDK. Can't beat the Martin design. I've tried. The only success I had was in the 17" jumbo, heightening and thinning the X braces for a wee more stiffness and less mass. Made a cannon of a guitar. But the Dred is near perfect. Can't be beat. Boomy, but right.
Keeping the braces stiffer on the treble side makes a lot of sense. So does shaping the braces down until you get appropriate flex and tone. Thank you sir. I will experiment on a guitar that has already been built to see if your voicing technique will make a difference. I also wonder if using a stiffer wood species would make a difference on the treble side? Fir? Or using a different cut of wood eq flat sawn, quarter sawn, rift sawn etc. Hmmm.
Here's another concept on harmonics from another perspective. The order of notes on a trumpet without pushing the buttons gives you an interesting pattern. Lowest note working upwards goes: CG CEG CEFG CDEFG 15 135 1357b 12357b Every octave adds another note, and musically becomes more complex. The Creator of physics was one interesting being.
the top he finishes with is going to be a much better sounding guitar, if I understood this correctly. Much better distribution of overtone series. Do we agree? I'm not a builder, but a professional player, and just got my first luthier built guitar, so i'm geeking out.
I would love any o e of his guitars just because of the passion and love he's put into building a beautiful looking and sounding instrument. Can't afford it though 😕
I’d be curious to hear other builders opinions on Taylor’s V bracing that claims to solve some of these problems. I know personally I’ve had a hard time going back to traditional x braced guitars as I hear the out of tune harmonics and it drives me insane
Im 57 years old I have handmade guitars most of my life and a good guitar make can hand turn there tops by ear I have built over 60 guitars everyone loved them I sold them as fast as I could build them turn your top before u put the bracing on witch takes time and a good ear then when u hear what u want .then put your bracing on then work them down until u get that same sound before u put the bracks one then u will get a good soundind guitar I sold all I made
Great video, really puts the science and application of tuning a top, understandable. You mention the iPhone app to do spectrum analysis, but I can't find the app in the store - can you tell us what you're using? Also, those finger planes, are those the ones from StewMac?
A great discussion, but the camera work leaves a lot to be desired. You should keep the graphs Dana has made on screen while he discusses them. Instead, you shift back to watch him talking about the graphs. But there is no way you can memorize the graph in the brief seconds you get to look at it. So the viewer is left in the dark as Dana describes the graphs.
Not ever having built a guitar, I have a question about the tap tuning. If looking for certain "notes/ frequencies, why aren't the braces tuned to specific notes that that compliment each other using a strobe or other tuner to achieve the desired over all tone of the top?
I'd imagine it's because the stiffness of various areas on the top (and so, their resonant frequency) is very interactive - so, 2 or 3 or more braces near it will have effect on the tone there. I have the feeling that the first couple tops I make will have a steep learning curve.
There are a few back seat driver comments below. Yea, there may be a few scientific statements that are not accurate. But it is obvious this man knows what he is doing. He has a physical knowledge of what makes the acoustic guitar ring. I would love to be an apprentice for him.
Ok, this is very interesting because I paused it around 11:00 and figured out the notes of the different harmonics... 1,2,3,4,5,6, and 7.... everything 1-6 is close to a perfect major triad... So for example an A4 would have A5, E6, A6, C#7/Db7, E7..... But then the whole thing seems to fall apart at the 7th harmonic... 440 hz * 7 = 3080 hz, which is somewhere between F#7/Gb7 and G7.... So I intuitively figured, okay, we must be discouraging that.. .and just as I have that thought, he goes into the modes of a good sounding piano, and the 7th is the strongest resonance, after the 1st and 2nd... So why does this sound good? Mind blown. Oh, look, he did the same thing with a C note at 12:24...
Wait. The violin has a post under the bass foot of the bridge connecting it to the back plate, thus almost doubling the bass output of the instrument; that is why the violin is held away from the body and not muted against the player's torso, like the back of the guitar. Therefore the Violin back/front plate system is NOT analogous to the guitar.
Wrong, actually. The soundpost in the viola family is underneath the Treble side foot of the bridge. Regarding the bass there is the famous so called 'Bass-bar', remember? ;) All of that implicates a large number of challenges regarding the building System of a plugged instrument aiming at raising the percentage of efficiency and effektiveness in terms of put, indeed, but Not even remotely in the way you proposed. All of that said leaving oft the fact that the viola family Instruments are played - with few exceptions - with a bow, which tremendously hightens the energetic effectiveness of the sound productions all by itself; try to plug a violin to Proof the Point ;)
Eeeek you are SO right, Sound post under TREBLE side I knew that hahahah But I still insist that the back plate is much more active than guitar back, which has no sound post. The Violin has much shorter sustain, unless it is bowed...
I have a 1982 Contreras Double Top. It has a voice around G which is perfect. I have played dozens of modern guitars from USA, UK, Japan, Europe you name it. None of them come anywhere close to mine in tone, clarity, warmth, accuracy. The way you get a brilliant instrument, be violin, guitar or cello, is by the maker having years of experience handed down through many generations of technique. There were no computer analysis in The Strad workshop and certainly none in the great Spanish workshops. I am sure this gentleman makes very nice guitars but I really don’t think the analysis will make any difference at all.
A seasoned instrument, will always sound better than a newly built one, provided that they are of similar quality. You should compare it to equally seasoned instruments. Your comparisons bear no validity so far, other than what I' ve just written above.
There is nothing wrong, and everything right about what he is saying. The laws of vibrating strings, combined withthe laws of vibrating plates... and so on... I am 5 minutes in and digging this. Aaaand... he's referencing Rick Turner at about 10 min.... great stuff... ( i am learning, call me a beginner )
There are a lot of $3500 mass produced guitars on the market that seem like they're not voiced, though. I said something to a friend of mine about the variation in martins that I've played (new ones) and asked what he does with the instruments that he's made that are duds. He said "what? I don't make duds! If you're careful, you won't have any". I had a quiet dark martin in the $3K range, and the shop that sold it to me (I was young, made the mistake of ordering it out of the catalog and having them deliver it to the store after I paid for it) "it'll open up as it gets older". In a decade, it didn't change at all. I bought one of Dana's guitars, and it's killer strong right out of the case brand new (smartened up and played it where it sat rather than ordering). I've had it for more than a decade, and it's about the same. My friend was retiring just as I met him, so I never got a chance to buy one of his guitars. He did offer me an unfinished body and a neck blank for $2500 :-X. No thanks!
It's not nasty when two unison strings are slightly out of tune, it's what gives a 12-string its jangly tone, because of a chorus effect and that was the basis of the infamous supersaw sound in synthesizers, but I do get the point in an instrument with all strings tuned relative to a given pitch, the top reinforces those frequencies and not some microtonal ones that are slightly out of tune. That could also mean that the guitar is designed to be tuned a certain way to sound fuller in A440 vs A434. Very interesting topic, great video thanks!
Hi, now this guy is the real deal. I would go as far s to say this guy is probably the best luthier in the United States . I personally have never had the pleasure of playing one of his guitars. He's definitely right up there with CF Martin guitars , probably better. His inlay work is phenomenal. The only thing is , those guitars come with a hefty price tag, but understandably so when you consider the time and expertise that goes into the making of his guitars. Definitely a guy that I would love to meet.
"Right up there with CF Martin guitars"? Comparing a factory-made Martin to a Bourgeois is like comparing a Chevy to a Lamborghini. Martin may well be the best mass-produced factory-made guitar but don't be fooled into thinking it is the best, or even near the best guitar.
I don't understand how the tapping on an unsupported top tells much about the sounds that the top responds to when the edge is clamped to the sides. The vibration patterns will be completely different. Perhaps his vast experience allows him to extrapolate the differences but there is no doubt in my mind that the actual frequencies will be quite different when the top is glued to the sides and has to accommodate the vibrations of the back. Unless he uses that cement block for a back.
Describing the guitar as a system of coupled oscillators is a misnomer. It is a system of coupled filters and a source oscillator. The only true oscillator is the one driving the system, on the guitar it is the string's initial impulse response and its spectrum. The consequent oscillations of the structural elements are result of the (comb)filters dissipating this initial energy. The vibrating air column is the output post filters.
Nice summary but it's a little more complicated, at least from the research the I've found- at some frequencies the top is driving the air in front it more directly and not involving the air cavity. When you say true oscillator don't you mean initial oscillator - once the bridge starts rocking from the energy input of the string vibration is it not acting as a secondary oscillator? and then there's that feed back loop, does that not lead to a bunch of things vibrating (top, back, air cavity, neck,... so a bunch of things vibrating together influencing each other -? coupled oscillators - I have a phD acoustics/physics prof around the corner, he's away right now but when he gets home I"ll run it by him but I'm pretty sure that although there is a single source of the initial vibration that does not negate that other things become involved and are also vibrating. It does all go back to the string though which I don't think he emphasized enough. Too many players pay so much attention to the instrument and just about none to the string -
@@BobStCyr Actually there is no true oscillator at all. This is simply a system dealing with an impulse. (I've edited my comment to now include the word) The impulse response of the simple taut string can be described as the being input of the system, then it is filtered (and damped) by the structures coupled to it and so yields an output. Damping factors are crucial to whether the impulse oscillates at all. Filtering shapes the spectral output. My viewpoint is based on a background in electrical engineering rather than acoustics but the physics and maths must be the same. Sometimes it is difficult to write explanations where a few simple lines of math or diagrams would suit better.
Voicing simply makes a top resonant and active. The tone and character will change once its affixed to the sides and back. At that point, if you don't like the tone you pick another one.
J Rosner I think it’s just a Martin dreadnought thing because I’ve played many now and they just are designed that way. I just got the d28 modern deluxe and it’s not as bad but it’s there
@@VaughnFelixMusic hmmmm.... you want to know the best sounding, comfy guitar i ever played? An old, stripped and shellac'd worn out gibson j45 that came through the store i was teaching in. Needed a lot of work, but, man... it was just perfect for what it was. Better than any martin ive ever heard. Someone ended up buying it as-is for like, 700 bucks.
@@VaughnFelixMusic i just read that some folk change tuners, or put a plate under the tuners on the headstock to counter the problem.. kinda like the old fender bass " c clamp " trick. Maybe its worth a shot?
Oh man, as much as I want to understand how a guitar is voiced, and if I can improve the voicing of my guitars, this guy isn't the person to explain the science or process. After 22 minutes I gave up, and I'm an Engineer.
Actually, his explanation of the harmonic overtones was excellent. If you gave up at 22 minutes, you missed seeing the practical application of the science. And I, also, am an Engineer.
The fallacy of "voicing" is that one tap tone determines what happens when the thing is glued on, connected to taught wires and strummed. Martin didn't voice anything though they did figure out an unbeatable x braced top design. Hauser is said to have voiced (tuned) his tops and backs to a certain resonant frequency (a tap note). They all rave about that Hauser sound. I can't hear it. Is it me or is it the emperor's clothes. Maybe the player hears it behind the guitar. Great.
Not a scintillating speaker to be sure, but he's a genius at voicing guitar tops, which you can hear immediately in his guitars. To my ear, they're the purest, most resonant anywhere. Voicing, or 'tuning' the top is an intuitive art, so we can't expect much from him trying to explain it scientifically, but Dana does the voicing himself. There are videos of him doing it, and it seems like magic, but it's art.
You don't need to listen to the braced Top until you bore a row of Six-6mm holes across the middle of the Soundboard and Bridge, (close together), to facilitate the lacing Pins. Instead of weakening the Soundboard structurally by drilling holes in Western guitars why not use `Trapeze-Tailpieces´ like Django Rheinhart had on his guitar. Long-term, Pins cause bowing of the Soundboard or loosening of the Bridge, they are a compromise of materials, structurally weakening and acoustically dampening the Soundboard with subsequent costs of repair being the least worst result. Anyone can fashion or buy a brass trapeze tailpiece. One should aspire to build guitars that can outlast the builder! Hardwoods are too finite a substance to waste. Pins are a silly wasteful tradition, like circumcision, an elephant in the room of; `listening to the woods´, that no builders want to see.
I'm going to bet you can't tell a funny joke to save your life, as much as I love the shit out of guitar stuff. I can't believe you make it so damn dry that I'm thirsty just listening to you. Please build a fire stare into the flames and then, grab your guitar and play a tune. Life's not that complicated ,unless you insist on it.
Squares don't roll well. He is shaving the square so it rolls, but it will not be a perfect "round thing", it will be an ellipse. In this manner, he fails to demonstrate the exact shape (tap tones) he is looking for and where, and exactly what must be done to achieve the desired result. It is simply stunning that no one has remedied this folksy method with hard science. No way a person remembers subtle changes in tap tones over a long time interval (minutes ) that he prompts his audience for. Obviously, one could eliminate this interval with video editing, giving us a better before and after sequence.
Given that the measuring device is a human being, tuning a top is an exercise in human perception, the most accurate of instruments. Human perception is not quantifiable. Most of the complex structure of that sound emitted by the top is virtually "in-the-weeds" and not practically measurable using today's instrumentation. There is a very good paper on it by the guy that founded the company that builds the carbon fiber guitars, Dr. John A Decker, in the Feb 2007 edition of ASIA magazine.
Awesome video. I enjoyed the physics portion as much as the demonstration; I beamed with excitement upon hearing the different "marimba" tones at the end! I hope to achieve that same result on my next build. Thank you for sharing! Cheers from the woodnest.
Hi great video! How do feel about a product called a tonerite? It's the device that attaches to the guitar strings and vibrates at different frequencies to help break in the top to loosen the grain I guess Thank you.
I am a total know nothing, never built a guitar but may do it at some point. The videos I have seen here on RUclips, has made me think it is "the method of bracing" used mainly that effects sound of a guitar.
Please keep discussion civil. Remember, guitars are fun!
That's journeyman level, not enough for mastery you know. Perhaps you just have the touch. But top tuning is not a myth ,and I suspect as you get more experienced at your craft you'll come to recognize it's value.
I can't believe I watch this for 45 minutes and did not get to hear the comparison between the voiced top and the nonvoiced top
Great illustration on voicing guitars. As a violinist 2 of my violins were re voiced by thinning the 8 plates to an approximation of original Stradivarius and Guarnari specs. Also a longer sound board was installed. The result was a louder more complex instrument was created. One disadvantage is that by thinning the interior top and bottom of the instrument can create a weaker instrument more susceptible to top cracks. A decible machine measuring frequencies was also used to tune the plates as well as iron filings used to create a shape known to the great violin models of the past. All this information was due to the great violins of the past being taken apart and carefully measured. I wasn't aware of the complexity of the harmonics in terms of re voicing. I will have to try my harmonic scales to see if I can get cleaner harmonics with my re voiced violins.
Where exactly was the thinning done, in local areas, across the board? I know violins are studied to the micrometer. So it did help. How did you lengthen the soundboard, but simply stretching the ribs out a wee bit? The back not longer? And they did this according to the desired Chladni patterns. That's pretty interesting. Those darn Cremonese masters. Can't beat em.
So much to learn. Thank you Dana .
I enjoyed this. Thank you to Dana for taking the time to explain this and for Northern Lights for hosting.
Ok guys, you are right. He loves his work and loves to talk about it. Just play one of his guitars. You’ll get the picture. He reminds me of my dad, a great violin maker who used to put me to sleep with his theories(not always based on valid scientific research) LOL. I would sit there and listen patiently just waiting to hear him play one of his instruments. Thank you for spending your life bringing us these incredible instruments mr. Bourgeois. A lot of good info here for those of us who are building guitars.
I bought a lot of guitars, and none of the martin guitars could match the single bourgeois acoustic that I bought along the way. Dana offers advice that you can't get anywhere else, and he has nothing but a huge library of excellent guitars to back him up. And "every day" guitars like the Slope D that I bought just from a music store could be duds here or there, but it's not. It's in every way perfect, a visual example of finish work care, and an audible example of someone taking the time to make sure it would sound clear, balanced and strong (rather than saying "well, for $3500, you don't get that treatment, you have to go upgrade to get it".
It pains me a little bit to see people in these comments (who have never made anything) criticizing what Dana offers as advice (he wouldn't have to do it at all), because they think they know something vs. Dana proving it on a daily basis.
I'm glad to see that you were nice enough to leave a positive comment unlike some of the other people who are more interested in arguing rather than appreciating something nice or making something nice.
What is your dad’s name? Curious because I am in the Violin industry
Wesley Wang Ed Langlois
This is simply fascinating. Thank you for delving into this, seeing how the process is done.
For me it was a great presentation with some nice tips and advices implicit. For a good understander, half word is enough. Thanks for posting.
I'd "known" about tap tuning but never seen it. Nice to see this demo and be able to actually hear it being done. I prefer the sound of ladder bracing for what I play, but one has to acknowledge the pretty, resonant, and busy harmonic sound of X braced guitars.
Thanks for the vid.
Fascinating! I had no idea scalloping the braces would affect the tone & sustain of the guitar. I thought (in my old metal smithing mind) it was purely for weight. The marimba information was amazing. Also the harmonics of a "single note".(I can't imagine the "ear" of the person(s) way back when, who could distinguish that C eventually ended up as C E G, thus giving us the chord. Thank you for this brief teaching, I've learned so much, I never knew. I've played guitar over 50 yrs, transplanted guitar chords to the piano & have faked playing a piano for 30 yrs (had no idea it'd been that long), & bass (had a great teacher who showed me what he called the "magic scales"). This was so interesting, I'm glad I watched this.
Thanks for sharing. Really interesting to learn the anatomy.. help to understand how to work around the tone shaping.
A master of his craft. I enjoyed the explanations as he shaved bits and parts from the braces and why! Good vid.
What a great video. Solved many mysteries.
I "frickin" love this guy! and I really really "frickin" love his' guitars!!! Unbelievable.
This inspires me on so many levels. Thank you.
NLM.. A big shout out to you guys for making it possible to learn from a wonderful talent as Mr. Bourgeois. I have done a lot of research on violin history and Mr. Jack Fry has revealed a lot of what Mr. Bourgeois covered here in the slide show. I plan on making my first guitar and these videos build confidence. Thank you again..
What a great presentation, I've watched it many times over. There is a very good article about the "physics" of Guitar Acoustics (Guitar Acoustics 101: FROM A TALK TO THE SEATTLE UNIVERSITY PHYSICS CLUB); by Dr. John A Decker, in the Feb 2007 edition of ASIA magazine. Dr. Decker states in this feature article that the complex overtones in the guitar are not measurable by today's measurement devices. I would go on to add that the most sensitive instrument is the Human instrument of Perception, and that perception is a combination of senses and algorithms used in the human machine. Measuring the complex nature of top vibration with scientific instruments is akin to trying to measure love. Top vibrations and love are both known to exist, and both are impossible to accurately model. However, they can both be maximized using the human instrument.
This is a treasure. Thank you.
Best wishes
3rd video in and I'm so glad i found your channel!! This is AWESOME!!!
My friend and guitar maker Chris Eccleshall who trained as a violin maker always taps his guitar tops because all wood is different.it gives individuality .he makes no duds. He also said bourgeois guitars are absolutely brilliant
And Chris is an excellent craftsman. 👍
24:50 scalloped braces are nothing but marimba bars. Nice!
Great vid. A BUNCH of excellent points, well stated. I never realized you were trying to MAXIMIZE harmonics for good sound...interesting. Sounds like a job for a good Finite Element Analysis simulation program...probably done, haven't looked. A couple of observations, and a cute/interesting applicable story, if you haven't heard it (at the end):
I don't know why they call the thermal imaging stuff a hologram, but it really isn't. A hologram has to do with light interference patterns that are generated by a split laser, one bounced off a mirron and the other the object, then spread out and captured by transparent very high resolution "film" and typically these two photo transparent patterns are laser lit to re-generate the 3D image, though there are white light holograms, like you see on banking cards. There is more to it than that, but that is the surface level gist of it. The FLIR or thermal image of the vibrating top is just a picture, taken in a slightly different EM spectrum than optical (the heat side, or below the optical spectrum frequency wise). As an engineer, I suspect a laser range finder incorporating a high frequency scan mode might give a MUCH more accurate picture of those lower acting modal vibrations you are talking about that were not measurable earlier. If done right, it might be able to detect much lower amplitude vibrations, and likely at a very fast rate. I would have to look at what's available bandwidth wise and run some numbers to be sure though, might be full of crap.
For the chart that "shows everything" impacting everything else, the arrow should ALSO point back to the strings, since the moving body and neck influences those, as well. I suspect if you could look at the whole system you would see resonance modes running from the strings through the body and back again. One obvious way to explain the multinode string vibrations is the technique of lightly touching the string that fingerstylers use to generate those high beautiful harmonic notes. They are just picking the nodal positions of the particular overtone they wish to "keep" (really not damp), and causing it to be the fundamental. I am thinking of building a guitar, and beyond obviously using proper materials and good solid building workmanship, I suspect what you are demonstrating here has as much or more to do with making a GOOD sounding guitar vs. a lousy or average one, than a lot of other aspects builders sometimes fret over (see what I did there, and it wasn't intentional, happens all the time, weird).
I saw a special once where a lady (don't remember the name) was trying to build a REAL plastic (carbon fiber) violin. She was working this body nodal stuff to the nth degree, and when she handed the violin to Itsak Pearlman, he looked pretty skeptical, but played on it a bit and declared "It's a violin!". This was either the first or pretty close to the first attempt apparently, and he was obviously surprised, and delighted.
One question. Have you done any work in moving/changing (whatever) the hole to see how that affects the vibrational modes? I am starting to see more and more examples of that in guitars, and wondered if there was a reason for it, or if it was just an aesthetics thing. Thanks for the vid, I'm thinking about building a guitar, and this info will be invaluable, I am quite sure. Obviously, I will spend a lot of time watching the luthiers build them and listening to their tips, tricks, and gotchas, as well. Again, thanks for posting.
The best example of a beat note I've ever heard is an organ technique where you play two frequencies against each other, and there is a resultant, that is plainly audible, as a note LOWER than any pipe on that organ can play. The interesting part is that there is really no note there, at all. If you try to measure energy at that frequency there is none (my understanding), but your brain perceives it very plainly as that lower note. One of those times where find out what you think you hear (or see, or whatever) isn't actually there, at all, even though your senses clearly say it is. Kinda weird.
I saw Dana present this at the Artisan Guitar show ..such an amazing, amiable Master
There's some deep shit in here. Dana is full on and amazing.
What an education!! 🙂 Thank you 🙂
Invaluable!
"...something simpler than the physics". I love this guy!
The tone of Dana's guitars is unique and wonderful. A large part is that Dana is a master of the obscure art of tuning the top (and, as he mentions, the bottom). This is an insight into the mind that produces the magic. Fascinating .
Where can we get a copy of his slide show? There are a few pages I would like to examine in more detail.
just take screenshots
Almost all those tap tones heard were centred on the note B. The adjustments focused the tone and its harmonics but didn't change that fundamental pitch to any extent.
Exceptions were in the final series presented, one particular place yielded a G-ish tap tone a third below the earlier Bs ( about 42:33 ) and another an E at 42:48 .
Classical Gtr makers often aim for that G or even a tone lower, the predominance of the B makes me wonder if steel string guitars aim for something quite different.
You have a really good ear. But Bourgeois guitars don't compare to a run of the mill Martin. They're thin and tight, and IDK something not right. It's the lack of scalloping. You need those nodal points for small local vibrations. (Chladni patterns?) IDK. Can't beat the Martin design. I've tried. The only success I had was in the 17" jumbo, heightening and thinning the X braces for a wee more stiffness and less mass. Made a cannon of a guitar. But the Dred is near perfect. Can't be beat. Boomy, but right.
Keeping the braces stiffer on the treble side makes a lot of sense. So does shaping the braces down until you get appropriate flex and tone. Thank you sir. I will experiment on a guitar that has already been built to see if your voicing technique will make a difference. I also wonder if using a stiffer wood species would make a difference on the treble side? Fir? Or using a different cut of wood eq flat sawn, quarter sawn, rift sawn etc. Hmmm.
Pierre Langlois update please!
I saw the walnut guitar you made for Luke Bryan on the TODAY SHOW with Willie Heist. Nice...
Here's another concept on harmonics from another perspective. The order of notes on a trumpet without pushing the buttons gives you an interesting pattern.
Lowest note working upwards goes:
CG CEG CEFG CDEFG
15 135 1357b 12357b
Every octave adds another note, and musically becomes more complex.
The Creator of physics was one interesting being.
Thank you
the top he finishes with is going to be a much better sounding guitar, if I understood this correctly. Much better distribution of overtone series. Do we agree? I'm not a builder, but a professional player, and just got my first luthier built guitar, so i'm geeking out.
I would love any o e of his guitars just because of the passion and love he's put into building a beautiful looking and sounding instrument. Can't afford it though 😕
I’d be curious to hear other builders opinions on Taylor’s V bracing that claims to solve some of these problems. I know personally I’ve had a hard time going back to traditional x braced guitars as I hear the out of tune harmonics and it drives me insane
Im 57 years old I have handmade guitars most of my life and a good guitar make can hand turn there tops by ear I have built over 60 guitars everyone loved them I sold them as fast as I could build them turn your top before u put the bracing on witch takes time and a good ear then when u hear what u want .then put your bracing on then work them down until u get that same sound before u put the bracks one then u will get a good soundind guitar I sold all I made
Thanks, very interesting. When the top began to sound good, the subtitles were defined as music. :)
Muy bonito tema
Great video, really puts the science and application of tuning a top, understandable. You mention the iPhone app to do spectrum analysis, but I can't find the app in the store - can you tell us what you're using? Also, those finger planes, are those the ones from StewMac?
A great discussion, but the camera work leaves a lot to be desired. You should keep the graphs Dana has made on screen while he discusses them. Instead, you shift back to watch him talking about the graphs. But there is no way you can memorize the graph in the brief seconds you get to look at it. So the viewer is left in the dark as Dana describes the graphs.
Not ever having built a guitar, I have a question about the tap tuning. If looking for certain "notes/ frequencies, why aren't the braces tuned to specific notes that that compliment each other using a strobe or other tuner to achieve the desired over all tone of the top?
I'd imagine it's because the stiffness of various areas on the top (and so, their resonant frequency) is very interactive - so, 2 or 3 or more braces near it will have effect on the tone there. I have the feeling that the first couple tops I make will have a steep learning curve.
Why do pre-war (ww2 ) Martins then sound so good, I have a sima 00028 50 years old, sounds good , bet it never got any of this treatment.
If you go too far, is there a way to replace the brace or have you to start with a new top?
You can chisel the braces away and start again if you have that kind of patience.
There are a few back seat driver comments below. Yea, there may be a few scientific statements that are not accurate. But it is obvious this man knows what he is doing. He has a physical knowledge of what makes the acoustic guitar ring. I would love to be an apprentice for him.
Seorang profesor yang sangat hebat
Can you please provide the presentation? Thnx.
So interesting. What is the Iphone app you used? Thanks so much
Ok, this is very interesting because I paused it around 11:00 and figured out the notes of the different harmonics... 1,2,3,4,5,6, and 7.... everything 1-6 is close to a perfect major triad... So for example an A4 would have A5, E6, A6, C#7/Db7, E7..... But then the whole thing seems to fall apart at the 7th harmonic... 440 hz * 7 = 3080 hz, which is somewhere between F#7/Gb7 and G7.... So I intuitively figured, okay, we must be discouraging that.. .and just as I have that thought, he goes into the modes of a good sounding piano, and the 7th is the strongest resonance, after the 1st and 2nd... So why does this sound good? Mind blown. Oh, look, he did the same thing with a C note at 12:24...
26:04 you call a sweet sounding phasing sound "nasty" or bad? I fail to see that correlation.
Wait. The violin has a post under the bass foot of the bridge connecting it to the back plate, thus almost doubling the bass output of the instrument; that is why the violin is held away from the body and not muted against the player's torso, like the back of the guitar. Therefore the Violin back/front plate system is NOT analogous to the guitar.
Wrong, actually. The soundpost in the viola family is underneath the Treble side foot of the bridge. Regarding the bass there is the famous so called 'Bass-bar', remember? ;)
All of that implicates a large number of challenges regarding the building System of a plugged instrument aiming at raising the percentage of efficiency and effektiveness in terms of put, indeed, but Not even remotely in the way you proposed.
All of that said leaving oft the fact that the viola family Instruments are played - with few exceptions - with a bow, which tremendously hightens the energetic effectiveness of the sound productions all by itself; try to plug a violin to Proof the Point ;)
Eeeek you are SO right, Sound post under TREBLE side I knew that hahahah But I still insist that the back plate is much more active than guitar back, which has no sound post. The Violin has much shorter sustain, unless it is bowed...
thi is gold
Node not mode. Isn’t that correct?
why do vintage straight brace martin's sound so good?
great
I have a 1982 Contreras Double Top. It has a voice around G which is perfect. I have played dozens of modern guitars from USA, UK, Japan, Europe you name it. None of them come anywhere close to mine in tone, clarity, warmth, accuracy. The way you get a brilliant instrument, be violin, guitar or cello, is by the maker having years of experience handed down through many generations of technique. There were no computer analysis in The Strad workshop and certainly none in the great Spanish workshops. I am sure this gentleman makes very nice guitars but I really don’t think the analysis will make any difference at all.
A seasoned instrument, will always sound better than a newly built one, provided that they are of similar quality. You should compare it to equally seasoned instruments. Your comparisons bear no validity so far, other than what I' ve just written above.
I'm listening to JJJerry, it sounds tuned to his favorite key of G :)
There is nothing wrong, and everything right about what he is saying. The laws of vibrating strings, combined withthe laws of vibrating plates... and so on... I am 5 minutes in and digging this. Aaaand... he's referencing Rick Turner at about 10 min.... great stuff... ( i am learning, call me a beginner )
My guitar has a boomy thump along with the tone on the open A. I think I need Dana to voice my Martin....
I used to think the top of a guitar was just a piece of wood
Driftwood guitars says top voicing is overrated. Do you agree?
Like I always thought. It's voodoo.
I can appreciate the physics discussion however I would prefer an actual explanation of voicing as per the title
All top luthiers voice their guitar tops, its part of guitar making.
Tex Tucker 8i
There are a lot of $3500 mass produced guitars on the market that seem like they're not voiced, though. I said something to a friend of mine about the variation in martins that I've played (new ones) and asked what he does with the instruments that he's made that are duds. He said "what? I don't make duds! If you're careful, you won't have any". I had a quiet dark martin in the $3K range, and the shop that sold it to me (I was young, made the mistake of ordering it out of the catalog and having them deliver it to the store after I paid for it) "it'll open up as it gets older". In a decade, it didn't change at all. I bought one of Dana's guitars, and it's killer strong right out of the case brand new (smartened up and played it where it sat rather than ordering). I've had it for more than a decade, and it's about the same.
My friend was retiring just as I met him, so I never got a chance to buy one of his guitars. He did offer me an unfinished body and a neck blank for $2500 :-X. No thanks!
Hologram or infra-red?
It's not nasty when two unison strings are slightly out of tune, it's what gives a 12-string its jangly tone, because of a chorus effect and that was the basis of the infamous supersaw sound in synthesizers, but I do get the point in an instrument with all strings tuned relative to a given pitch, the top reinforces those frequencies and not some microtonal ones that are slightly out of tune. That could also mean that the guitar is designed to be tuned a certain way to sound fuller in A440 vs A434. Very interesting topic, great video thanks!
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its not nasty when a unison is not tuned right? its not...its disgusting xD
A432 is what you mean. 434 is irrelevant.
Hi, now this guy is the real deal. I would go as far s to say this guy is probably the best luthier in the United States . I personally have never had the pleasure of playing one of his guitars. He's definitely right up there with CF Martin guitars , probably better. His inlay work is phenomenal. The only thing is , those guitars come with a hefty price tag, but understandably so when you consider the time and expertise that goes into the making of his guitars. Definitely a guy that I would love to meet.
"Right up there with CF Martin guitars"? Comparing a factory-made Martin to a Bourgeois is like comparing a Chevy to a Lamborghini. Martin may well be the best mass-produced factory-made guitar but don't be fooled into thinking it is the best, or even near the best guitar.
please put a lo cut on the mics next time
I don't understand how the tapping on an unsupported top tells much about the sounds that the top responds to when the edge is clamped to the sides. The vibration patterns will be completely different. Perhaps his vast experience allows him to extrapolate the differences but there is no doubt in my mind that the actual frequencies will be quite different when the top is glued to the sides and has to accommodate the vibrations of the back. Unless he uses that cement block for a back.
Describing the guitar as a system of coupled oscillators is a misnomer.
It is a system of coupled filters and a source oscillator.
The only true oscillator is the one driving the system, on the guitar it is the string's initial impulse response and its spectrum. The consequent oscillations of the structural elements are result of the (comb)filters dissipating this initial energy. The vibrating air column is the output post filters.
Nice summary but it's a little more complicated, at least from the research the I've found- at some frequencies the top is driving the air in front it more directly and not involving the air cavity. When you say true oscillator don't you mean initial oscillator - once the bridge starts rocking from the energy input of the string vibration is it not acting as a secondary oscillator? and then there's that feed back loop, does that not lead to a bunch of things vibrating (top, back, air cavity, neck,... so a bunch of things vibrating together influencing each other -? coupled oscillators - I have a phD acoustics/physics prof around the corner, he's away right now but when he gets home I"ll run it by him but I'm pretty sure that although there is a single source of the initial vibration that does not negate that other things become involved and are also vibrating.
It does all go back to the string though which I don't think he emphasized enough. Too many players pay so much attention to the instrument and just about none to the string -
@@BobStCyr Actually there is no true oscillator at all. This is simply a system dealing with an impulse. (I've edited my comment to now include the word) The impulse response of the simple taut string can be described as the being input of the system, then it is filtered (and damped) by the structures coupled to it and so yields an output. Damping factors are crucial to whether the impulse oscillates at all. Filtering shapes the spectral output.
My viewpoint is based on a background in electrical engineering rather than acoustics but the physics and maths must be the same. Sometimes it is difficult to write explanations where a few simple lines of math or diagrams would suit better.
Voicing What's the next move if you still don't like the tone ?
Voicing simply makes a top resonant and active. The tone and character will change once its affixed to the sides and back. At that point, if you don't like the tone you pick another one.
Video would have been better if it started at about the 26 minute mark.
24:50 I’ve been playing marimba bars this whole time?
Good marketing video, but what count to me is how the instruments sounds and all the rest does not interrest me.
My E note on the 4th and 5th string are so dull and no sustain, so sad, I tried everything to fix it
Check out where your tone bar is, you mwy want to move it or shave it ( scallop )
J Rosner I think it’s just a Martin dreadnought thing because I’ve played many now and they just are designed that way. I just got the d28 modern deluxe and it’s not as bad but it’s there
@@VaughnFelixMusic hmmmm.... you want to know the best sounding, comfy guitar i ever played? An old, stripped and shellac'd worn out gibson j45 that came through the store i was teaching in. Needed a lot of work, but, man... it was just perfect for what it was. Better than any martin ive ever heard. Someone ended up buying it as-is for like, 700 bucks.
@@VaughnFelixMusic i just read that some folk change tuners, or put a plate under the tuners on the headstock to counter the problem.. kinda like the old fender bass " c clamp " trick. Maybe its worth a shot?
J Rosner I tried a 90’s j45 and it felt stiff and sounded too tight for my ears. I’ll check into that headplate trick.
Oh man, as much as I want to understand how a guitar is voiced, and if I can improve the voicing of my guitars, this guy isn't the person to explain the science or process. After 22 minutes I gave up, and I'm an Engineer.
Actually, his explanation of the harmonic overtones was excellent. If you gave up at 22 minutes, you missed seeing the practical application of the science. And I, also, am an Engineer.
Aku pengen bisa buat gitar. Dimana ya? Atau setidaknya kerja di pembuatan gitar brand dunia. Ada yg bisa bantu?
www.stewmac.com
They been building guitars for yeas withouit any of this knowledge and they sound pretty good.
No close up of camera. Should be so that at least we'll have an idea to what he does explains...🤔🤔🤔
I MADE IT TO 13 MINUTES... Do I win anything?
as a practicing village idiot i made it to 20:28. my cup runneth over.
It gets interesting around 27 minutes. He actually voices a top.
Far out man, this guy needs to learn how to edit out all the superfluous info in his presentation.
He could have said it all in 15 minutes.
The fallacy of "voicing" is that one tap tone determines what happens when the thing is glued on, connected to taught wires and strummed. Martin didn't voice anything though they did figure out an unbeatable x braced top design. Hauser is said to have voiced (tuned) his tops and backs to a certain resonant frequency (a tap note). They all rave about that Hauser sound. I can't hear it. Is it me or is it the emperor's clothes. Maybe the player hears it behind the guitar. Great.
What’s he on about?
Not a scintillating speaker to be sure, but he's a genius at voicing guitar tops, which you can hear immediately in his guitars. To my ear, they're the purest, most resonant anywhere. Voicing, or 'tuning' the top is an intuitive art, so we can't expect much from him trying to explain it scientifically, but Dana does the voicing himself. There are videos of him doing it, and it seems like magic, but it's art.
A brilliant luthier. I need my top shaved.
Hey Fretkillr! I’ve been a fan of yours for over 10 years 😁
You don't need to listen to the braced Top until you bore a row of Six-6mm holes across the middle of the Soundboard and Bridge, (close together), to facilitate the lacing Pins. Instead of weakening the Soundboard structurally by drilling holes in Western guitars why not use `Trapeze-Tailpieces´ like Django Rheinhart had on his guitar. Long-term, Pins cause bowing of the Soundboard or loosening of the Bridge, they are a compromise of materials, structurally weakening and acoustically dampening the Soundboard with subsequent costs of repair being the least worst result. Anyone can fashion or buy a brass trapeze tailpiece. One should aspire to build guitars that can outlast the builder! Hardwoods are too finite a substance to waste. Pins are a silly wasteful tradition, like circumcision, an elephant in the room of; `listening to the woods´, that no builders want to see.
Lot of talking about a diagram and not displaying diagram.
I'm going to bet you can't tell a funny joke to save your life, as much as I love the shit out of guitar stuff. I can't believe you make it so damn dry that I'm thirsty just listening to you. Please build a fire stare into the flames and then, grab your guitar and play a tune. Life's not that complicated ,unless you insist on it.
IS EVERYBODY STILL AWAKE ??????????????
Squares don't roll well. He is shaving the square so it rolls, but it will not be a perfect "round thing", it will be an ellipse. In this manner, he fails to demonstrate the exact shape (tap tones) he is looking for and where, and exactly what must be done to achieve the desired result. It is simply stunning that no one has remedied this folksy method with hard science. No way a person remembers subtle changes in tap tones over a long time interval (minutes ) that he prompts his audience for. Obviously, one could eliminate this interval with video editing, giving us a better before and after sequence.
Given that the measuring device is a human being, tuning a top is an exercise in human perception, the most accurate of instruments. Human perception is not quantifiable. Most of the complex structure of that sound emitted by the top is virtually "in-the-weeds" and not practically measurable using today's instrumentation. There is a very good paper on it by the guy that founded the company that builds the carbon fiber guitars, Dr. John A Decker, in the Feb 2007 edition of ASIA magazine.
;7
The guy talks like Ron Paul.
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I think he means nodes not modes...
This is 100% bullshit hyperbole salesmanship.
I'm not here in the musicality
mass produced guitars are not customized by 1 person I call BS
8 guitars a week = mass produced? I don’t think so...
That was really helpful! Thank you very much for sharing so much info with us! Greetings from Greece!
Hey man, great scrap guitar, really inspire me to build my own, thanks👍
Awesome video. I enjoyed the physics portion as much as the demonstration; I beamed with excitement upon hearing the different "marimba" tones at the end! I hope to achieve that same result on my next build. Thank you for sharing! Cheers from the woodnest.
time frame 44:29,... "Improve sound velocity(?)" Sound velocity is sound velocity in a given media, how can you chage that
Hi great video! How do feel about a product called a tonerite? It's the device that attaches to the guitar strings and vibrates at different frequencies to help break in the top to loosen the grain I guess
Thank you.
I am a total know nothing, never built a guitar but may do it at some point. The videos I have seen here on RUclips, has made me think it is "the method of bracing" used mainly that effects sound of a guitar.