Good stuff mate. I had the dreaded 2nd gear issue in my XS11, they jump out of 2nd gear and it is such a common issue with these bikes. The minute they do start jumping, and yes the root cause is usually wear or adjustment in the selector assembly, both the second gear and fifth gear (the corresponding engagement) are junk and they will continue to jump regardless of any attempts to remedy the root cause due to the wear pattern developed on the leading edges and the inherently shallow overlap, thanks Yamaha. So you go looking and discover that a few of the gears are available through Yamaha but not....yup. 2nd and 5th. So your faced with a 40 year old box with 40 years of wear and tear and jumping out of 2nd as soon as you wind on the throttle. The only option is to try and find another box with less wear than yours, good luck with that, or build up and repair the ones you have, not a simple task for most, or to under cut and piss with the dick you've got. Is it good practice? No. Will it get you out of the shit and keep it running for a few hundred thousand more klms? Yes. Now piss off, I've called the cops PMSL. You can see what I have to deal with here ruclips.net/video/T_ntCm-Hg7Y/видео.html
Yup I've rebuilt many a mcycle gbox and its always the dogs that cause gear jumping. 2nd gear and second from top most common and for that reason always the gears manufacturers run out of stock first. Blaming the detents on the shift barrel is the most common misdiagnosis there is.
I think this is an excellent example of the difference between Engineers and Tradesmen, and why they can get so frustrated with each other. To Engineers it's all so simple. For the guy that actually has to deal with the reality of fixing a bike, often a customers bike with a limited budget, it is a very different world and we do what we have to do to get the thing back, or keep it, on the road.
Andy's Motorcycle Obsessions if its a common problem how much would it cost to get a batch of new gears made? Perhaps improved to stop this happening again? Then you would be the guy to go to for the parts! :)
I'm with you on this one Andy. Same problem with 2nd on a 99 R6 track bike, It comes down to the bucks vs the fucks. If the enginerd got it right we would have to clean up afterwards. Loving your channel also.
great vid, never under cut gears myself, but did spend some time polishing up the mating surfaces of the forks and cam slots, make sense to just replace the selector rod, as in your last video, cheap parts, while your there, replace it
When you undercut the dogs, either 5° (street) or 7° (track), under load the gears pull themselves together… I’ve undercut many transmissions without drama… as well Isotropic Super Finishing (ISF) makes a massive difference to smoothness and changing…
Case Hardening, when I did metal work at school we heated up the steel and then put it in a dark grey powder to " Case Harden" it. Too many years ago to remember exactly what it was but thought it introduced carbon or nitrogen into the surface of the metal. I made an excellent silver steel punch that i used for many years until I lost it when by tool box was nicked by some scrote.
That's carburization - you can buy similar stuff today - its called 'cherry red' - unless you have low carbon steel and heat it for a couple of hours it doesn't really work.
Making sand castles on the beach, yeah we don't fight wars like that any more lol You missed one other issue people under cut for is the rounding of gear dogs, people with 700cc (& larger) Hondas of the 80s would know this well but they don't pop out of gear but the gears' dogs skip/clunk against each other from the tops of the dogs rounding over from poor (or clutch-less) shifts. The problem then compounds itself as the hopping wears down the forks or transmission abuse causes the shift drum to chip and forks to thin making the dogs round over even worse. To help prevent the dogs from rounding everyone recommends undercutting but I believe the best solution is to shift properly (this gets you past 60k miles if you don't shift poorly at all) and when it comes time to rebuild the transmission: Straight cut the gears (I often have to weld material to them which is also much stronger than the steel Honda used) Inspect the forks (replace as needed) Straight cut the track/channel in the shift drum (I often have to weld in missing chips here too again making them slightly harder) The odds are against me as no new transmission parts are available for Honda's 1980s V4s so between my massive stash of spares and renewable pieces I can straight cut and weld I'm set for a little while but who knows how long...... Cheers from Wisconsin, USA!
My goodness there's a lot of slack in those dogs. Gears in my bike have much tighter fit. Now I understand why it is a bitch to shift sometimes. Would be great if you will explain this subject.
I think i'm right in saying that the early hayabusa's (pre 2008 gen 1's) dogs on second and sixth gear were strait cut and only four dog engagement and prone to shifting out of second gear. But later ones ( 2008 on, gen 2's) had an undercut second and sixth gear from factory, with five dog engagement and i would imagine case hardened after the cutting of the dogs .... Also output shafts were heavier on gen 2's @ 28mm diameter opposed to 25mm on the gen 1's........ I think I might have some gears knocking about from a 1984 kwaka GPZ 750 (non turbo) with a sheared primary shaft if I can dig them out and you want them.....?
Can I sent u a picture of what happens with my dogs, is the 4 gear of a dirt bike, I don’t want undercut but what if I cut the bad part but keep the same angle ?????
I've done the female half of dogs before with EDM not the mill. You can have whatever corner radius you want then. Takes a fair bit longer, but leaves plenty of time to fill out the police report.
Amazing info video ! Thanks you. I planed to undercut mine..So is it a good ideas to superfinish the transmisson or which best for trans anybody please ?
@@dirtygarageguy thanks for reply. Oils has the affection to how smooth the trans shift or down so if anything could improve the smoother the trans pls
So exactly what shifting horror bends the selector rods and/or forks? I've heard it's possible to bend them many times, but not how. Lead footing the shift lever?
cheers m8 i agree with all what you've said and ive got said prob on me suzi gt 125 popping out of gear and i reckon its gota be the shift star or fork . i was loath to dive in though but watching your vids sort of makes me feela bit more courageous . me firstbike was an ap 50and i buggered the box on that yonks ago when i tried . felt like such a twat ! never minded doing the top end though as you said. anyway there you have it. i ought to get the haynes book i suppose eh!
It's been a very long time since I did materiel science, but thought case hardening was heating the material up in a case of carbon for a couple of hours, thus causing carbon to be added to the material and creating a harder wear surface, ie in shafts. Think you meant heat treatment to the gear teeth and dogs, or is it because I'm getting that old and my mind is fucked lol
Depends on the alloy - that's carburization, similar to nitriding etc. Tool steels just require heat treatment and in the 'case' (lol) of gera teeth - its induction hardening
Say you have an old bike that has bad transmission parts, and don't want to pay $400 for new old stock so you go to eBay for something used, is there something specific you're looking for in the pictures? I was curious so took a gander. They all looked the same to me. I'm guessing ask for close-ups of the dogs and ring selectors?
Interesting comment from FactoryPro re transmission blueprinting ... "I tend to try to use as little angle on the undercut as possible, as the more undercut the angle is, the more you have to let off the power to get the gears to separate - important when not using a "quickshifter" or "air shifter"." www.factorypro.com/tech/transmission_blueprinting.html
I have a few gears out of a ktm supermoto. Not broken, just a bit worn out (still very usable though) If you want them send me your adress on fb or here. ANd i'll ship them to you.
or you use and change the correct oil for the stuff half of the manuals lifespan and drive lika an maniac, stamping the gearlever like your life depends on it, then it will hold just fine many, many years :)
You're stressing me out. I don't have time to tear my gearbox apart. I don't even really have time to watch this video. My bike doesn't really pop out of gear on its' own, just fucking shitty SV gearbox sometimes misses the gear or maybe pops out easier then expected when I'm shifting. It doesn't seem bad enough to tear it all apart yet. I just started my master's degree, and I don't have time for this shit. Thanks for the explanation though.
I got some gears from a 2005? Suzuki RM125 that I don't care about and can send your way. Same ones with the butchered lightening job. PM me info if you want them, so long as it doesn't cost an arm and a dick to ship from Canada. Got a full YZ250 gearset, but want to keep that complete for sitting on my desk. Some of the gears might be interesting for engaging 5th from a bent shifter fork.
Theyre not extremely complicated, theyre marginally heavier (I'll give half a point for that one) and expensive. A semi automated fully sequential is the best (as far as performance) but dual clutch's are sooooo smooth 😩 like a CVT but not lame.
"The hammered dog shit bike" , ha made my morning
Del, please point to the part on the dolly where this information touched you.
Always hear and read about something being case hardened but never really knew what it meant. Thanks for making it easy to understand. Good work Matt
Good stuff mate. I had the dreaded 2nd gear issue in my XS11, they jump out of 2nd gear and it is such a common issue with these bikes. The minute they do start jumping, and yes the root cause is usually wear or adjustment in the selector assembly, both the second gear and fifth gear (the corresponding engagement) are junk and they will continue to jump regardless of any attempts to remedy the root cause due to the wear pattern developed on the leading edges and the inherently shallow overlap, thanks Yamaha. So you go looking and discover that a few of the gears are available through Yamaha but not....yup. 2nd and 5th. So your faced with a 40 year old box with 40 years of wear and tear and jumping out of 2nd as soon as you wind on the throttle. The only option is to try and find another box with less wear than yours, good luck with that, or build up and repair the ones you have, not a simple task for most, or to under cut and piss with the dick you've got. Is it good practice? No. Will it get you out of the shit and keep it running for a few hundred thousand more klms? Yes. Now piss off, I've called the cops PMSL. You can see what I have to deal with here ruclips.net/video/T_ntCm-Hg7Y/видео.html
Yup
I've rebuilt many a mcycle gbox and its always the dogs that cause gear jumping.
2nd gear and second from top most common and for that reason always the gears manufacturers run out of stock first.
Blaming the detents on the shift barrel is the most common misdiagnosis there is.
I think this is an excellent example of the difference between Engineers and Tradesmen, and why they can get so frustrated with each other. To Engineers it's all so simple. For the guy that actually has to deal with the reality of fixing a bike, often a customers bike with a limited budget, it is a very different world and we do what we have to do to get the thing back, or keep it, on the road.
Andy's Motorcycle Obsessions if its a common problem how much would it cost to get a batch of new gears made? Perhaps improved to stop this happening again? Then you would be the guy to go to for the parts! :)
I'm with you on this one Andy. Same problem with 2nd on a 99 R6 track bike, It comes down to the bucks vs the fucks. If the enginerd got it right we would have to clean up afterwards. Loving your channel also.
It always amazes me how much technology there is in simple things we can't see, like materials treatment such as case hardening.
great vid, never under cut gears myself, but did spend some time polishing up the mating surfaces of the forks and cam slots, make sense to just replace the selector rod, as in your last video, cheap parts, while your there, replace it
When you undercut the dogs, either 5° (street) or 7° (track), under load the gears pull themselves together… I’ve undercut many transmissions without drama… as well Isotropic Super Finishing (ISF) makes a massive difference to smoothness and changing…
Forking excellent video, best explanation I've seen 👍
Case Hardening, when I did metal work at school we heated up the steel and then put it in a dark grey powder to " Case Harden" it. Too many years ago to remember exactly what it was but thought it introduced carbon or nitrogen into the surface of the metal. I made an excellent silver steel punch that i used for many years until I lost it when by tool box was nicked by some scrote.
That's carburization - you can buy similar stuff today - its called 'cherry red' - unless you have low carbon steel and heat it for a couple of hours it doesn't really work.
'and then ring the police, and claim harassment' LOL
Making sand castles on the beach, yeah we don't fight wars like that any more lol
You missed one other issue people under cut for is the rounding of gear dogs, people with 700cc (& larger) Hondas of the 80s would know this well but they don't pop out of gear but the gears' dogs skip/clunk against each other from the tops of the dogs rounding over from poor (or clutch-less) shifts. The problem then compounds itself as the hopping wears down the forks or transmission abuse causes the shift drum to chip and forks to thin making the dogs round over even worse. To help prevent the dogs from rounding everyone recommends undercutting but I believe the best solution is to shift properly (this gets you past 60k miles if you don't shift poorly at all) and when it comes time to rebuild the transmission:
Straight cut the gears (I often have to weld material to them which is also much stronger than the steel Honda used)
Inspect the forks (replace as needed)
Straight cut the track/channel in the shift drum (I often have to weld in missing chips here too again making them slightly harder)
The odds are against me as no new transmission parts are available for Honda's 1980s V4s so between my massive stash of spares and renewable pieces I can straight cut and weld I'm set for a little while but who knows how long......
Cheers from Wisconsin, USA!
My goodness there's a lot of slack in those dogs. Gears in my bike have much tighter fit. Now I understand why it is a bitch to shift sometimes. Would be great if you will explain this subject.
Use the c90 engine/gearbox for your experiments. they have been around for a while and there are bucket loads of them available.
Doing some acids enables you to see things you cant otherwise...
I think i'm right in saying that the early hayabusa's (pre 2008 gen 1's) dogs on second and sixth gear were strait cut and only four dog engagement and prone to shifting out of second gear. But later ones ( 2008 on, gen 2's) had an undercut second and sixth gear from factory, with five dog engagement and i would imagine case hardened after the cutting of the dogs .... Also output shafts were heavier on gen 2's @ 28mm diameter opposed to 25mm on the gen 1's........
I think I might have some gears knocking about from a 1984 kwaka GPZ 750 (non turbo) with a sheared primary shaft if I can dig them out and you want them.....?
Can I sent u a picture of what happens with my dogs, is the 4 gear of a dirt bike, I don’t want undercut but what if I cut the bad part but keep the same angle ?????
facebook.com/pony.power.395/
I've done the female half of dogs before with EDM not the mill. You can have whatever corner radius you want then. Takes a fair bit longer, but leaves plenty of time to fill out the police report.
Amazing info video ! Thanks you. I planed to undercut mine..So is it a good ideas to superfinish the transmisson or which best for trans anybody please ?
undercutting is bad. Superfinishing is a waste of time
@@dirtygarageguy thanks for reply. Oils has the affection to how smooth the trans shift or down so if anything could improve the smoother the trans pls
Teaching me what I didn't no good video
I would need my own model to get my head around this
I got a sabre v45 and in second gear only it feels less skipping in and out of gear under hard load? Any idea
Brilliant video thank u 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
So exactly what shifting horror bends the selector rods and/or forks? I've heard it's possible to bend them many times, but not how. Lead footing the shift lever?
cheers m8 i agree with all what you've said and ive got said prob on me suzi gt 125 popping out of gear and i reckon its gota be the shift star or fork . i was loath to dive in though but watching your vids sort of makes me feela bit more courageous . me firstbike was an ap 50and i buggered the box on that yonks ago when i tried . felt like such a twat ! never minded doing the top end though as you said. anyway there you have it. i ought to get the haynes book i suppose eh!
It's been a very long time since I did materiel science, but thought case hardening was heating the material up in a case of carbon for a couple of hours, thus causing carbon to be added to the material and creating a harder wear surface, ie in shafts. Think you meant heat treatment to the gear teeth and dogs, or is it because I'm getting that old and my mind is fucked lol
Depends on the alloy - that's carburization, similar to nitriding etc. Tool steels just require heat treatment and in the 'case' (lol) of gera teeth - its induction hardening
Matt for a moment I thought I was losing it, still life in this old dog. Phew!! 👍
Say you have an old bike that has bad transmission parts, and don't want to pay $400 for new old stock so you go to eBay for something used, is there something specific you're looking for in the pictures?
I was curious so took a gander. They all looked the same to me. I'm guessing ask for close-ups of the dogs and ring selectors?
3,2,1 ultimate marine rage. USA USA USA
Why not do a flipping series it would be cool to see that the amount of times iv been on fb and seen amazing deals its been sat needs minor tlc ect
@6:00 you got the worm gear/ driven gear analogy backwards... but I’m guessing most guys know what you were trying to say.
is it bad to skip gears when shifting?
No.
I think delboy has buried a dead body in his rear fairing.
I heard so many weeble woble in this video, I almost got seasick lol
Interesting comment from FactoryPro re transmission blueprinting ... "I tend to try to use as little angle on the undercut as possible, as the more undercut the angle is, the more you have to let off the power to get the gears to separate - important when not using a "quickshifter" or "air shifter"."
www.factorypro.com/tech/transmission_blueprinting.html
I have a few gears out of a ktm supermoto. Not broken, just a bit worn out (still very usable though) If you want them send me your adress on fb or here. ANd i'll ship them to you.
or you use and change the correct oil for the stuff half of the manuals lifespan and drive lika an maniac, stamping the gearlever like your life depends on it, then it will hold just fine many, many years :)
You're stressing me out. I don't have time to tear my gearbox apart. I don't even really have time to watch this video. My bike doesn't really pop out of gear on its' own, just fucking shitty SV gearbox sometimes misses the gear or maybe pops out easier then expected when I'm shifting. It doesn't seem bad enough to tear it all apart yet. I just started my master's degree, and I don't have time for this shit. Thanks for the explanation though.
Love kicking the shit out of rubber... feck i'm a shit head !
If the dogs take nearly half a turn to engage does coming on and off the power beat the shit out of them
10:32 hahaha ironic!
why dont you use 303 aerospace on them? it will run another 100.000 miles ! you will never need to change the gearbox oil again!!!!!
I use factory and get 10,000 miles....9,900 miles more than that ;)
I got some gears from a 2005? Suzuki RM125 that I don't care about and can send your way. Same ones with the butchered lightening job. PM me info if you want them, so long as it doesn't cost an arm and a dick to ship from Canada.
Got a full YZ250 gearset, but want to keep that complete for sitting on my desk. Some of the gears might be interesting for engaging 5th from a bent shifter fork.
Knobhead!
1st you cants
Seknd
coughing snails?
Why not a dual clutch trans for bikes feel like they are far better suited for bikes then cars
Beach&BoardFan
Like the new Gold Wing, or the NC700, a few years ago?
O yea? Mustve missed those... old people bikes and all. Why no proper sport bikes?
Beach&BoardFan
Probably because nobody would buy them. Also cuz they're heavy, expensive, and extremely complicated.
Theyre not extremely complicated, theyre marginally heavier (I'll give half a point for that one) and expensive. A semi automated fully sequential is the best (as far as performance) but dual clutch's are sooooo smooth 😩 like a CVT but not lame.
Beach&BoardFan
It's all subjective, I think they're lame. If there not terribly complicated, why don't u just build your own? 😋