Clarification: At one point I said that the guys at Watcher "don't have employees to blame," and kind of misstated what I meant. I do know that they have employees, but they don't have the kind of employees they can pass the buck to the way that say a company can blame the sales team for not selling a bad idea well enough.
They are at the top of the ladder so it's very true that they don't have anyone to blame but themselves it's not like an Intern tricked them into doing this. An excellent video as per usual and I hope Nebula contacts you it would only be a benefit to them to bring you in.
So, Watcher has two shows that are essentially just them reading fan submitted stories and interjecting with banter. The shadiest thing about this whole mess imo is the fact that they took submissions for both these shows recently (one last month, one three months before that) without telling the fans who submitted that they were intending on putting those new seasons behind a pay wall.
@peekaboo7424 Yeah, I took note of the fact that when they were talking about how grateful they were for all the ways their fans supported them in their apology video; giving them content to monetise was not on the list.
My assumption as to why they were so confident that people would follow them over was that people kind of already did - they got their audience from when they worked at Buzzfeed, and when they left a lot of us happily followed them over, because it wasn't Buzzfeed's brand we were watching for, it was their personalities, but... well, there's a difference between unsubscribing from one channel and subscribing to a new one for free and having all content suddenly cut off and put behind a paywall.
I was thinking about it too. They could have said that the patreons would have access to the videos without having to pay extra or something like that, even if it’s only for the middle-to-higher tiers, but no. They wanted you all to pay twice, wtf
Same-we too were/are Patrons (paid up for the year). They got their money’s worth from us all right. They won’t get another brass farthing, however, that much i can tell you. Watcher burnt their bridge with us.
I feel like dropout also has a lot more people in front of the camera than Watcher which probably helps their catalogue to feel more diverse and interesting, even just ignoring the greater variety in shows
This. For me, paying for Dropout already makes sense so they can pay guests. Personally I do not see anything in Watchers content that needed to be meaningfully cut in that case.
Also dropout has , brannens use as face is excelent, he is really lovable, college humor rreally is good utilizing personalities in content to be fun, and brannen is no exception. Also they still put stuff on youtube, as appitizer. Plus they really, have a legacy and yeah have a histoty of diverse people that , makes trust more they really have a diversity of fun content.
As an occasional Dropout subscriber, I have to add something to the discussion: They have made it very easy to someone poor like me to stop subscribing awhile and come back when I can. The website does ask you why and have reasonable answers listed on it, what to me feels like they know their audience and don't shame you for not having money to subscribe. Overall they feel really nice to anyone who wants to support them in any way that person can, without forcing you to anything or without making you feel bad. I have no idea how they managed to be that nice about it, while having very real difficulties to get to this point that they can actually start making money.
@@CavishBeka well they probably understand if u could pay for your own subscription to them u more than likely would and not make people feel like they are stealing the ability to watch them cause they may have been in that situation themselves
@kevin10001 Absolutely. And we know how ragingly anti-capitalist especially Brennan is. They need to make some money to do what they do, and they are realistic about it, but they don't try to squeeze their fans for more than they are willing and able to give them. When Netflix announced once more to crack down on password sharing, Sam immediately tweeted something along the lines of "when it comes to Dropout, sharing is caring". It's my genuine pleasure to pay money to them every month, knowing it goes to good people and not into some cooperate void.
From watching Fantasy High Sophomore Year (originally twitch live streams), they seem to have offered a lot of low introductory prices and special offers to fans. Plus the fact that they had Twitch streams of an entire campaign earlier on in Dropout’s history says a lot about transitioning from RUclips/free content to “paywall.”
I think another factor here in the comparison to Dropout is how Dropout started off as an extra thing on top of CollegeHumor. CH would put out their usual sketches and Dropout was a service for their more budget pushing shows but also the game shows/improv that weren't the usual fair for CH. After Sam took over - and especially during Covid - the sketches became less focused on and the game shows/improv got more focus and eventually became what the channel was known for. The shift from CH the youtube channel to Dropout the service was a gradual evolution that was not planned out the way Watcher has done here. They didn't just say 'We have a streaming service guys, bai', it was gradual, and to try and replicate that success is reminding me of DCEU rushing to get to where Marvel already was. I also think it's worth noting that if you want to access Dropout's subscription stuff on RUclips - they have a way to subscribe via youtube as well - making it easier to onboard new people (I mean that's how I started subscribing (I had to find out what "Hello, I'm... fifty?" was referring to))
Dropout also has a ton of clips on RUclips. Even as someone who doesn't pay for their own subs (my in-laws have subs everyone in the family uses), I've subbed to Dropout and occasionally check back in because the clips are just so damn good. I used to watch a lot of Watcher stuff, but I just got bored after a while. There isn't really anything new and exciting to draw you in and make you want to pay $6 for unless you're extremely into their specific niche being repeated over and over.
CollegeHumor also had a lot of diverse channels, with their own followings, that they could involve and advertise on. Like, I only knew about Dropout existing, because I'd been watching Drawfee.
As someone who has been a casual viewer of Watcher and glued to this drama; 1. Honestly, besides MAYBE the big three (Ghost Files / Mystery Files / Puppet History), I would say their content really doesn't veer too far away from very standard RUclips content. Like "Top 5 Beatdown" is just Ryan, Shane and a guest (or two) ranking their top 5 (whatever) and arguing over it. It is very personality driven- as can be seen by the fact that the numbers between the Ryan and Shane content and almost anything else is... pretty disparate. 2. I'm not sure what the case is with Vimeo, but the streaming service is hosted by them. It's not like they were building their own streaming service from the ground up - they were just moving to a host that let them do that. But yeah, this has been such a mess. If you want extra layers of insanity - they announced this literally the Friday before Ryan and Shane came over to the UK to host live shows (/record for Ghost Files). They absolutely were not planning for people to dislike this.
Its nice to hear someone talk about the Watcher stuff without just shitting on the Watcher crew about 'ruining their careers' for drama RUclipsr clicks Ive liked Shane and Ryan since thier Buzzfeed days, and while im disappointed in a move like this, the sheer amount of vitriol being thrown at them just seems... overkill Nice to hear someone talk about this more constructively, but thats the kind of quality content i follow this channel for anyway
I’ve said on other videos that I’m willing to forgive, but won’t be quick to forget. Like yes, they made a mistake, but I don’t think they’re irredeemable
I really respect Dropout and Sam Reich as a business and CEO respectively. They somewhat recently did a price increase of a dollar, but they didn't change that for old subscribers; if you subscribed at the old price you get the old price, even if you're on a month to month payment plan. They also recently raised like $100,000 for charity which is super based and cool of them
Yep. And as a recent Dropout subscriber, I don't begrudge longer-time viewers their lower price one bit, because it (a) reinforces that the price *I* signed up for won't increase anytime soon, (b) even if it did, their transparency to date means that I'm more than willing to hear them out on the reasons why, and (c) all of this can only help them draw even more subscribers, thereby allowing them to keep the lights on and the talent properly compensated for their contributions. It's a win-win-win model all around.
Dropout doesn't just release full episodes, they'll release full season. For example, Dimension 20 has: the first two seasons of Fantasy High, Escape from the Bloodkeep, and Neverafter. All full and free on RUclips. There might be more. I haven't checked recently. As for Watcher, I think they overcorrected. If I need to wait a month than I'll wait a month. I'm still a bit disappointed in them so I don't feel like supporting their streaming service due to how this went down. They also haven't got enough people I want to see. Dropout has nailed it. Don't leave RUclips entirely. Be personality based. Have a more of a library to share. No surprises.
Hearing from a much larger RUclips creator than myself that not all of your subs are going to watch everything that you put out was very comforting. Thank you for that.
Part of the problem may be that when they left Buzzfeed, a huge amount of people followed them to Watcher. They had a pretty dedicated fanbase who would regularly post on Buzzfeed videos saying they missed Ryan and Shane, even though there was no chance of those guys returning. It would be hard for that not to go to someone's head, so I guess they assumed people would follow them to their streaming service.
Also, for as positive as the fandom seems to have been up to this point, I think it tipped into the realm of never giving them criticism. Because when this happened, there were so many sentiments like "oh I can finally say I haven't enjoyed this as much as Unsolved!"
@@nicoler5713 Mystery Files isn't as good as Buzzfeed Unsolved, but Puppet History is much better than Ruining History. I do think that the idea that they ended up in a positive feedback bubble inspiring such a bone head move definitely makes a lot of sense.
@@nicoler5713I noticed even in the Goodbye RUclips video the comments were still polite. There was no one being rude and saying “Ya know what?! Fuck you guys!” Or anything like that. It was all constructive criticism and expressing how disappointed they were.
The biggest difference between them leaving Buzzfeed to do Watcher and their original plan here is that it was more them following their audience to youtube than their audience following them from Buzzfeed to a platform they were not using before. Considering their Buzzfeed shows were hosted on youtube already, it's likely that people had already for the most part long independently skipped the part where they went to Buzzfeed's website to find the content. Even though from the creator's POV it was a big operations migration on their side, it was pretty insignificant from the POV of the audience. At least in terms of what was being asked of them. To them, that's just clicking like four buttons to update to what channel they were following on the same platform without really changing anything about the way they seek out and consume the content.
Utterly baffling that Watcher thought they could “leave” RUclips. Dropout is all over YT and rightly so (How else would I have heard about them?) Just unbelievable arrogance throughout this whole thing.
I’ve been a viewer of them for years, and I feel pretty confident in saying that if they’d asked their audience, the majority of their fans would have offered genuine opinions and constructive criticism. Sure, there’d be some trolls, but they’d be a small fraction of the whole. That’s what’s so sad about this-the Watcher boys had cultivated an almost unheard of audience of people who were very supportive and understanding. Their audience wanted to see them succeed, and they supported them in any way they could. No one would have expected this from them, and it was a big “F you” to the very people who got them where they are. I still can’t understand how they got it to the point of being ready to launch and no one, not their huge staff, their family and friends or business associates said “this is a really, really bad idea”?! Or did they get that pushback and ignore it? How did this even happen?!
While we don't have official numbers for Dropout, we do know two things from interviews. One: they did a profit share last year, which certainly suggests they're doing well. Two: they roughly have around a million subscribers ("mid-six figures" at the end of 2022 which "almost doubled" by the end of 2023), which means tens of millions a year in revenue. I don't have the industry knowledge to put that into context, but it feels like a high number.
But also what was learn from podcasts that it took them awhile to get there and Sam had to pay a lot of from his own money to break even at first, but now things are getting better.
I think other folks have said similar, but Dropout stuff is Varied and Compelling. Dimension 20 is actual narrative, and a ton of the improv stuff is ppl who write and perform comedy successfully professionally as their careers. EVEN WHEN IT'S IMPROV you can feel the amount of work that goes into everything. Even behind-the-scenes shorts! If I'm actively watching a season of D20, I wanna catch that live or close to, so it's not spoiled. If I see a clip from a game changer episode I haven't seen, I want to go watch the full ep before I spoil the rules for myself. And when the rest of the content is at least frequently enjoyable, it doesn't take very much of the "have to see it live" content to seal the deal. Watcher has some good stuff, some stuff I really like, but none of it is compelling enough to make me go: "oh, I need to see this fast so it doesn't get spoiled for me". Some of Watcher's stuff is very polished... But a bunch of it is much more like a casual podcast but with some set dressing. So whether or not it IS low-effort (like responding into a mic to audience submissions), it FEELS low effort, and also very same-y. And again, so far it's just the three of them, and it feels like deadspace between seasons. Dropout releases something new every day or every other day, for at least one show, and even when that content is like a 6 minute Behind The Scenes video, what they're doing behind the scenes Is Interesting, and as far as I can tell, the audience Actually Asked to see more of it! (Like the Wild Makeup transformations for Very Important People, or the planning, prep, and contingency responses for game changer, etc) Speaking of frequency and diversity of content, Something that's been interesting to watch (especially is the field of Former Buzzfeed Creators) is the way the try guys have broadened their "cast", have made it be more about the kind of stuff they do, and less about the individual guys. That's part of how they have survived the shitshow that was Ned "the wife guy" cheating on said wife with an employee and getting rightfully ousted. I don't think Watcher is in a position to survive, for example, something wild happening with one of the ghost boys and bounce back. For dropout, however, if a single show does poorly? That's fine, they have more, and new ones out all the time. If a single actor or writer has a problem? That's fine, they have a wide cast who have good chemistry, AND they appear to have put in A LOT OF WORK to try to have things like a healthy and transparent workplace. It would be Hard if something huge bad were to happen with, say, Sam Reich or Brennan Lee Mulligan, but the format and diversity of the content I think allows them a lot more latitude to change gears (is Brennan the heart of D20 and a highly compelling actor elsewhere, yes, but they Have had other ppl GM D20 seasons- they might survive it. Is a lot of the goodwill towards dropout tied up in Sam Reich being a good and honest guy? Yeah, but they've survived loosing their CEOs etc before.). Honestly, I think the better comparison is between Watcher and Rhett&Link/Good mythical morning, which Knows it's niche, knows folks are there FOR RHETT AND LINK and not for variety, and sticks to form. And I think it's why their additional podcasts, occasional more adventurous videos, and occasional live/ticketed shows work- Rhett and Link (and their team) seem to have a very good understanding of who their core audience is, and what they're looking for/willing to fund. This is the difference I think between AN ORGANIZATION vs A CREATOR- Dropout feels like a company, an organization, a Brand, broad and varied, and like a thing that should reasonably have it's own dedicated space... Watcher is still (in size, in name recog, and quantity of content) v much A CREATOR or A Team. It's still Three Dudes And The Stuff They Wanna Talk About... And no 3 dudes can sustain, like, a whole TV channel by themselves. And viewers subscribers etc pick up on the difference.
Acshually is a pretty fun game show from nerds for nerds. And thats, ok they really diversify content and personalities. plus from the legacy they earned the trust to be funny i would guess. And yeah they have practically professional actors and improv comedy people.
This reminds me of what the Sidemen did. But the difference is, the Sidemen created their streaming service as an added on extra with exclusive videos and still carried on RUclips. The biggest mistake here is saying they wanted to leave RUclips and just do the streaming
Between this and Swell Entertainment’s videos I’m starting to understand this whole thing. But I just think it shows how out of touch the Watcher guys are. I used to watch Unsolved but watcher was just never as good. I can’t imagine how they thought this was going to go well. I don’t think it was malicious but very much out of touch with their audience and most people’s current financial situation.
As someone who was a dropout subscriber from almost inception (wasn't immediately available in my country) and who has religiously been subscribed whenever I have had the money over the last five years, the thing you said about transparency was always a BIG thing for me. When the initial dropping of their corporate overlord happened, I was subscribed. I remember the tweets from all the cast members, I remember seeing that they were down to two salaried workers (Brennan and Sam, the owner) and I remember being so worried about their future. But Sam did an announcement explaining what happened, explaining that their content wasn't going to be 100% for a while, and asking that people keep subscribing if they could afford to. And it really spoke to me! I was so glad that it wasn't a "there is no war in ba-sing-se" response. They were upfront, and got that emotional connection, and then DELIVERED on their promise later. I will probably never unsubscribe from dropout. They are my number one most recommended streaming service.
For me, the two big things that separate the Dropout situation from the Watcher situation is: 1. Dropout was going to stop existing and everyone rallied because it wasn’t fair, (also reminiscent of the Smosh situation) and 2. their content was and is diverse enough that there is something for a lot of different people. If Watcher had gone with a subscription service when they left Buzzfeed and started their company, it could have worked. But the way they did it made them out to be money hungry and out of touch with the audience they cultivated.
I fell in love with Ryan and Shane on BuzzFeed Unsolved and religiously watched every episode that dropped for Unsolved but I've only watched a handful of Watcher videos since they've gone to that channel.
The comparison to Dropout and how transparent it is is pretty apt. The Watcher announcement invited a lot of scrutiny into their financials that wasn't there before that might be the hardest to recover from. I like their shows and watch a few of them regularly, but the idea that they cannot be paid for with their current audience is insane. There are channels out there doing comparable content with less. It's clear they do not know how to efficiently run an operation of this size and that should be addressed before even thinking about expanding in any capacity. It really didn't help the optics of it all when the streaming announcement was paired with the announcement of a new (well, returning from the Buzzfeed era) show where they eat luxury food items. It's all very out of touch.
I used to be a subscriber to Watcher. I haven't financially invested in them, but I enjoyed their ghost files. This move left such a bad taste in my mouth I'm not going back, it felt very disrespectful to the very audience that made these opportunities possible.
Dropout was also in a very different position when they launched. It wasn't "we're doing great, now pay us," it was "we're on the brink of destruction, please help save us."
Ehhhhhhhh, that's not fully accurate. Keep in mind Dropout initially launched when College Humor (because the rebrand hadn't happened yet) was doing fine; the initial pitch of Dropout was "we'll keep doing what we do here on RUclips but there's new exclusive stuff over here." It was only after the parent company decided to burn it all down for the insurance money that Sam scooped up the ashes and said "hey, without this there will be literally nothing, please help."
@@CouncilofGeeks Whoops. My apologies, I was mistaken about the timeline. Thanks for the correction. I do still think that the collapse of College Humour has led to a very different audience mindset in regards to Dropout though, and helped to set a narrative other than the creators looking to get paid for otherwise free content. Great video as always, by the way.
The Watcher video was so close to TwoSet Violin's April Fools' Day video that I immediately looked at the date they published it and got confused. Maybe they should have published it on April 1 and said nothing either way about whether it was real and sat back and read people's reactions and went from there.
Here's something to add to the comparison: Watcher has a show called "Worth It", wherein they endulge in things like private jets, very expensivee dinners, etc. They went on and on in their announcement that the reason was to maintain and elevate their production value. First thing I would do is cancel Worth It completely. Even if the extravagant experiences are sponsored or comped, you still have to take a crew and shoot long days. They have another show that I really adore: Puppet History. But it does feel like a ripoff of Drunk History - the only difference is that they aren't drunk. As far as we know. But it's pretty rough hewn so I"m assuming is low production value. I am also a Dropout paid subscriber, and there isn't a day I regret that decision. For me, there isn't enough content on Watcher now, for free, that I ever considered paying for. If their production value is why this is necessary, maybe they need to scale it back?
"Worth It" was a Buzzfeed show, not a Watcher one. While they may have referenced it since changing over, it's still not a show that watcher makes. (you might be mixing up "Worth A Shot" with the original "Worth It," and they are _very_ different shows. On that note, Ricky is a f**king delight and is very underutilized.)
@@Arcanist_Gaming they announced that the one show that was going to premiere on the streaming service at launch was a show called Travel Season which was just the Watcher version of Worth it, but with them taking expensive international trips to try the expensive food. OP got the names mixed up, but it is something they're making.
@@kevinandorsusie lmao. okay, then. Not gonna lie, that sounds like a terrible idea. Worth it wasn't even that good lol (I guess I liked the other guy, I think his name was Andrew?)
I think the other thing is that the streaming landscape looks much different now than it did a few years ago. Back in the day, it was a novel idea, for roughly the price of a Starbucks, you can have all this content you love! But since then we've all layered on the services until it adds up to quite a bit. And the last thing anyone wants to add is yet ANOTHER subscription. We've got subscription fatigue and it has be outstanding for people to take the plunge anymore. (And Patreon isn't the same thing because you're not locked in to anything. You can quit whenever and have control over what you pay).
@@elhazthorn918 I think that played into it, but I also think they were, sort of, telling the truth in their motivations that the RUclips algorithm and advertisers are a PITA. Additionally, they also, I think, were trying to do this to avoid making hard decisions. They have at least 25 employess (some have said more like 30) and for a company their size, that makes the amount of content that they do...that's just way too many! They mentioned not wanting to lay people off, but if they're having budget problems they really need to. In one of their videos that was just the two guys playing a videogame they credited 11 people. Who truly needs a crew of 11 to film a videogame play video? They've given too many jobs to family and friends, and now don't want to be the bad guy and tell people they need to go, eventhough they really need to reduce staff.
The other big problem with watcher as compared to dropout... dropout has a large variety of personalities. They have a broad fan base that like a lot of their stuff. Watcher has two people *hate to tell Steven lim this but he's not a draw) and two shows. I mean... sure, I enjoyed puppet history but that was something I watched 1 or 2 episodes of. Too man spirits is fun but hardly a draw to make me part with money. Ghost files and mystery files are it. And I have to say... I am not alone in remarking both of those shows are a lot less interesting the more production they put into it. I hate to say it but Shane and Ryan were just more fun when they sat in a basement with one iPhone pointed at them ruffing on this stuff. Point blank - watcher doesn't have the celebrity to pull this off. MAYBE if they brought another channel with them... it might have worked.
Secret Base announced the start of their Patreon in the wake of the Watcher mess, and even referenced it obliquely while they spelled out why they’re doing it and even discussing when content that premieres on Patreon will hit RUclips. Additionally, Second Wind has been VERY open about their operations since leaving The Escapist. It all runs back around to being honest. If you lie, the camera will figure it out.
I've only kinda been aware of this controversy because I don't watch many Watcher vids, but the section you had on giving your fans advance notice before cutting down on stuff reminded me of when Tom Scott announced he eventually plans to leave youtube, because I really appreciated the gesture from him. He was doing weekly vids for ten years and basically told his audience that he'll still put stuff out, but that it will be out less often and he's got other projects going on. He gave his audience a ton of advance notice, explained why he was cutting back, and was genuinely grateful for his viewers. It's really nice when someone you watch shows that they do care about what their audience thinks, so thank you for making this video pointing that out. Fingers crossed that Nebula gets in touch!
Sam Reich has said that their subscriber numbers are in the "mid-hundreds of thousands", which a lot of people have interpreted as not quite hitting 500k yet, as it would be easier to say "half a million". They've also been a lot more sensible about their staff - they are only now reaching 20-25 staff, even doing so much more content than Watcher (generally, four-ish shows a week).
there's only two ways to not depend on RUclips. The Nebula way and the Dropout way. Nebula creators are still almost universally on RUclips. for most of them, it's a minority of content that gets paywalled. Nebula is essentially like if a ton of creators pooled under the same Patreon. Dropout built themselves VERY slowly. they perfected their content over years. they got some of the best talent out there (ehm Brennan Lee Mulligan), and most importantly - they suffered blows. when their parent company decided to drop them because it wasn't worth the investment, they cut staff and reworked production. they were also lucky to have their platform at the golden age of streaming - the pandemic. if you can't be Nebula or Dropout - you WILL fail.
Dropout legitimately sold out madison square garden a few weeks ago. Obviously i don't know the numbers but i think they are going pretty okay at least
I don't think i have seen anyone mention that to my knowledge, Dropout never had a patreon or was crowd funded. To be crowd funded through patreon and have a seperate streaming service that you want people to also pay for sounds insane.
If as a fan I’m willing to patiently see how this pans out for them over the coming months/years I’m more than willing to wait a month for the content. This was a really measured well done coverage of this, I appreciated your insights into it.
I haven't really watched any of the Watcher series, so I'm not personally invested in this situation. I've been a RUclips Premium subscriber for years. I am supporting some smaller creators on Patreon, and I'm a member of the Mythical society, but I think this is about all I'm willing to give to my favourite creators. The thing is, even if I have a quite small number of channels I watch all the time, I watch random videos around an interesting topic less regularly, and if everyone suddenly stopped youtube and started their own platforms, I'd simply cut down on watching time rather than subscribe to a dozen different channels.
I have no proof for any of this, but it smacks of either an over-enthusiastic management company or Vimeo trying to expand the reach of their streaming service SaaS. That’s the only reason any of this would make sense, and I’d be genuinely interested to find out what happened behind the scenes of this very bad idea.
Key point of agreement; I follow so many people here on RUclips that even though I have gotten a nebula membership, I don’t use it too often because I just don’t have the time to devote to curating my view time across multiple apps
I think they should’ve just repped their patreon harder and used that to provide more exclusive content. Maybe I’m flighty but I didn’t even know they had a patreon
Thanks for your nuanced business take on this situation! I've been following Watcher since they launched and was as wrongfooted as all the rest when their Goodbye RUclips video went up. What actually made me a lot more forgiving to the boys' initial move wasn't even their apology video, but the out of proportion "fan" response to the news. The amount of racism Steven and Ryan had thrown at them by their "supporters" was totally gross and then some people came after the wives for daring to stand with their husbands' business decisions and for...having had nice weddings?... It was wild and I was ashamed to be a witness to all of it, especially since I apparently wasn't as parasocially attached as I had previously assumed (because I was never angry about the decision, just sad.) I haven't watched any other outside perspectives aside from yours because they all seemed to be "drama tubers," and I don't have the trust built into them like I have after watching your takes for years. Thanks for tackling this issue and being respectful of both the fanbase and the creatives!
I think if this was more than just Watcher there is a market for the kind of former Buzzfeed reality shy type content to form a nebula type service. If it was going to actually be viable they would need probably the Try Guys and a few people like Sophia Nygard, or Michele Kahn to make the value proposition enough to justify it at launch. One of the main reasons I won’t go for Dropout is that they just don’t have enough variety to make it worth it for me.
Honestly. If they had launched Fuzzbeed, a creator led platform for high quality videos, maybe MAYBE people would have been on board. But watching steven eat disgusting decadant bourgeois crap for 6 dollars? Andy Warhol already did that in the 80s.
A lot of people have some great input into this situation. I will add to the conversation by saying this, if you pay enough attention to the way the talent speaks about Dropout most of them are working freelance, or only paid for the gigs they do with dropout, only some production staff and ongoing stars (probably brennan) are paid like full salaries because trying to get the streaming service up and going must have been incredibly expensive. Watcher thought they could take their full 20 people staff, and probably overblown talent salaries and just continue to fund everything the same. I also want to remind everyone that Watcher is investor driven. So to recap, they wanted to start a full subscription, while making money for investors and keeping all salaries the same for their 20 something staff. It seems super far fetched to do that off of subscribers who were already going to shows, paying for merch, watching your ads, and paying for your patreon.
What you talked about at the end of your video reminded me of a trope I really hate in, well, pretty much any TV show or movie. Character A: "I have a great plan, it's [this]." Character B: "What if it doesn't work?" Character A: "It'll work, trust me." NO. NOPE. NO. THAT'S NOT WHAT WAS ASKED.
A few days late, but I'ld like to say that it seems like non-scripted, non-drama shows are just a hard sell for its own streaming service (with possibly exception of game shows). I feel like people are more likely to pay for a service that provides scripted fictional dramas (not drama as in genre but in the category). And even then, nowadays we can even see full, well-produced and acted dramas on youtube, (i.e Thai dramas with English subtitles). And independent creators who make short films, sketches, short series, and even interactive content like what Markiplier did. The level of free content is so high, selling anything less behind a paywall seems like a wild miscalculation.
i'm not like the biggest fan of their content but am an occasional viewer (watcher haha) and when i saw the title of THAT video i thought it was a late april fool's joke. i was like no way are they just up and quitting without any warning. and my goodness the comments on that video were a sight to see
Nebula is a different beast altogether it’s more like a paid subscription version of RUclips in a way but a lot of the creators on it still do RUclips content cause of it’s no fully feasible to lock all there content behind a paywall and like Scott thst was used in this video is on nebula but still had his nerdsync channel even though he pretty much shifted it to a more Scooby-Doo channel instead of the comic book based channel it used to be when I found it but it’s still an interesting channel to watch like me finding this channel from the doctor who content but will watch more then that even break room content
If you're interested in getting dropout but are worried about finances I'd suggest paying for their youtube channel membership! All of their content is also on there and from what I remember it's slightly cheaper than dropout platform subscription. I'd say it's definitely worth it
Yep and they actually still drop episodes on youtube. Ok i get its good marketing as appitizer, but its good content to get a taste. And good marketing as them regular dropping shows they still exist.
THANK YOU FOR THIS COMPARISON!!! I’ve been internally screaming it since the Watcher talk started. People kept making a comparison to Netflix when the dropout one makes so much more sense. Don’t watch a lot of Watcher but Puppet History is a good watch. I like the earlier eps because I find the lower production value more approachable. Shane’s creativity definitely deserves the higher production $$$s but I just haven’t invested my time.
"The sheer f*cking hubris." - Admiral Clancy The lazy malevolent explanation is greed, but hubris makes way more sense. I totally agree with you their backpedalling shows they didn't plan correctly their thing. This backpedalling is basically about turning their streaming platform into an empty shell that will make them lose a reasonable amount of money. They probably didn't even realize that streaming platforms make their money with subscribers that don't use that much their account. The few die-hard fans who will massively watch their videos on the platform will cost them money because of the bandwidth consumption, etc. From what I understood, their intent was to provide content with bigger financial requirements. So they assumed the thing with new operation cost would instantly unlock them new budgets? It's a bold strategy. It's also a bold thing to make such a move with let's say such an unclear editorial identity (I'm not sure how to phrase it). As soon as you understand Dropout is the reincarnation of College Humor, you'll understand this revolves around comedy. There's Humor in their former name after all. Or simpler than that, you tell them Dropout makes comedy. So, what makes or is Watcher? I understand well, there's true crime stuff and foooood stuff?...and a puppet? It doesn't seem to be about a genre but about the hosts.
The biggest problem with TheWatcher content imo is that you can’t justify the amount of money and resources they spend making their content. For example most of their content covers the same niche as the Chilluminati podcast and those guys have a bigger audience and don’t spend a fraction of the money and resources on production the Watcher does. With the exception of Puppet history and the hunting house trips, all their content could be audio only and still be as entertaining.
I trawled comments for hours (it was darkly entertaining, oddly reassuring and people are funny), I never saw them directly compared to Nebula, I only saw people suggest they should have *joined* Nebula, or pointed out how Nebula does a YT based streaming service properly so it was used to contrast against Watchers move. Watcher was compared to Dropout but more people were comparing them to Rooster Teeth and a few other failed single YT channel streamers (failed so bad I can’t even remember names off the top of my head). People were pointing out how Nebulas model would have worked well for them and that Nebula charged half the price for quantity wise more, as well as variety wise more, content than they were offering plus were funding high production value projects which would have fit with Watchers goals. Even in comparing them to dropout I don’t think Watcher really grasped *why* Dropout works while seemingly attempting to follow in their footsteps hence the comparison there.
Dropout is definitely worth it. but yea we're all broke all the time. Id love to go on Nebula but I can only do one streaming service at a time. I binge whatever and then switch lol.
There is so much wrong with what they tried to do. I followed them from Buzzfeed, I have unsubscribed. One of them recently had a $250,000 wedding, they're highest Patreon tier is $100 a month. They're merch is more expensive than CLOAK. It goes on... Patreon members had to pay on top of the Patreon for the streaming service, the original plan was to delist their old videos and put those behind the paywall. One last point. $6 a month being "affordable for everyone " is tone deaf not only in the current financial crisis, but to international fans.
Heck you can practically take partial credit for, because seeing your little video was what got me thinking more about it until I was did my usual heavy sigh and went "ok, yeah I do have a video's worth of thoughts on this."
I love hearing y’all’s thoughts on this kind of stuff, if you have the energy and time it’d be cool to see another video about this situation! Also I hope you’re both doing well!🤗
I have dropout for d20 but I also follow their short channels on YT even tho I don't watch those shows cuz they're so funny and they're slowly getting me to watch other stuff through those shorts
The biggest thing for me is that I'm just sick of having to subscribe to a hundred different streaming services. I have Dropout because it's a great value in terms of entertainment vs cost, but even if I'd even heard of these guys or liked their channel, I wouldn't be interested.
Something really great that has come from all of this drama, are the many content creators that I didn’t know about, until now. I have heard some _solid_ takes, including this one. Subscribed ✅ Hello! Nice to meet you :) As someone who has followed these three (Shane Madej, Ryan Bergara, Steven Lim) since their BuzzFeed days, I personally feel that Steven, CEO of Watcher, almost exclusively, is behind this sh*tty move. 30:15 - “Arrogance,” you say. Steven. Totally Steven. … But I won’t be delusional and act like Shane and Ryan didn’t partake in this sh*tshow - because they did. I just wanted to give you a little insight as to how many of us feel about Steven specifically. imo, he was once rather sweet, humble. And while I’m happy for his success in life, it has gone straight to his head. Shane and Ryan admitted they’re not good with finances, so they hired Steven (so many poor decisions). And Steven has morphed into Mr. Bigspender who seems obsessed over keeping up with the Joneses. All of this + that attitude of just expecting that we will follow, just expecting that we will throw our money at them… It’s just… ew. 20:26 Right?? I’ve been saying this on repeat now. Viewers, having the knowledge that content will be available a month later, for free, will more than likely just… wait. Which… makes the new platform nearly useless, does it not? (laugh) Like, it’s just silly. We will see if they get views on their new platform, or on RUclips, even, after this screwup. Yikes. P.S. The more I think about Ryan’s sign-off from YT like, “We hope you’ll follow us, but if you’re too poor then peace out” - the angrier I get. The boys’ significant others have doubled down as well, almost coming off as angry at fans for not having the money to hand over. True colors shown indeed… Some seem too hopeful that they will be able to recover from this. I personally feel it will take a while 😬😬😬
I've never seen any Watcher videos, but I think you make some great points about monetization and how to view your audience. Saying that they were going to price it so that "anyone could afford it" is just... not realistic. When free (with ads) was the default, there's going to be people in the audience who won't/can't pay ANY amount monthly - even if it was something ridiculously small like $1/month. Between that, and just springing this change on their audience, it kinda sounds like their expectations weren't too realistic.
I prefer to hear from people who do follow Watcher talking about Watcher (although I did enjoy this video). It's easy for outsiders to laugh at the fans for being parasocial, but that's what happens when people follow personalities. Shane and Ryan were so unique at Buzzfeed, they had such personality and star quality and no one else was like them. But they have changed. Part of it is just growing up; they are men with families and responsibilities and boy oh boy, do they let you know about it every chance they get--which is another reason it's funny that they didn't just lay bare their issues and motives with the Patreon and as much as possible with the bigger fandom. I unsubbed, I resubbed after the apology, but I feel so different now,' it's like having a fight with a trusted friend who says SOME THINGS they can't walk back. It will take a major effort to bring that back.
I'm really glad to hear you saying what they could have done instead. TBH this is their first "scandal" so i think it's that success went to their heads. You were very accommodating and i wish more channels had realized they probably just were too excited. Yes it was all their choice: but also they just seem to have been in a feedback loop of how great they were. Everyone feels close to them artificially. That para socal relationship is a killer
Thinking on it now, all the creators I financially back in one way or another I support specifically because their work feels and has always felt emotionally honest to me. I can understand that the sudden announcement by a channel you thought was very genuine in their communication is suddenly creating a (additional) paywall for their content feels like you’ve had the rug pulled from under you. I’d be very upset too if I had invested time and energy or even money in this specific creator.
I’ve followed Shane and Ryan since buzzfeed. I eagerly followed them to watcher and thoroughly enjoyed the content. The way they dropped this on us and dismissed those who couldn’t afford the streaming services, left a BAD taste in my mouth. Even with the apology, I will never resubscribe. They were truly legends in their own minds.
Never heard of Watcher (or many other non-fiction topics you've talked about recently), so this was enlightening... and also proves that it is better to stay away from social media and big(ger) YT channels!
They were originally going to put the 1st episode of each season on RUclips and the rest on the streaming service, but after the backlash they were scared enough to back track and say they'd just put it up late. They pretty much went back on everything to the point they have no way of making more money.
What breaks my brain is the fact that they basically repeated all the mistakes Buzzfeed made, only watcher didn't have any VC money to throw around. And young adults that like creepy pasta usually aren't VCs so treating them like cash cows won't work.
I started watching Watcher a month or two ago when RUclips recommended me a video about the Circleville Letters, probably because I occasionally go there for pumpkin donuts, and my niece got married there around Christmas. They have good chemistry. But most of their stuff doesn't appeal much to me.
So this is interesting to me because I am subscribed to another show that put ALL their new content behind a paywall. In fact, I’m surprised they didn’t get more backlash. The show On Cinema at the Cinema used to be funded by Adult Swim, and then Adult Swim kinda cancelled it, I guess. So there was an inciting incident of loss of funding which Watcher doesn’t have (that’s actually similar to Dropout). Because it’s almost an ARG, we got a whole site with text and video. Tbh, a lot of people have not been happy with the paywall. I’m a subscriber and I’m fine with paying, but it’s true that they haven’t produced as much content as they promised or people expected. However, they do something that almost nobody else does, which is a livestream that is basically its own movie/play, complete with high production values. I’m willing to pay for that. I didn’t mean to write such a long comment and honestly could talk even more about it lol
Interesting video. Hadn't heard of these people before or even this move, but I agree with the apparent pitfalls they ran into. 20:40 Your point here is sadly how I've responded to Nebula incentives like "oh, catch our videos early on Nebula" - I've also been trying to limit my expenses (especially subscriptions) and don't have Nebula, so I just wait until those videos hit RUclips. I plan to get the service at some point and watch a bunch of stuff (Pat Willems' specials, Jessie's movie, Abigail's play & movie, some Nebula exclusive videos from fave RUclipsrs), but I am...content with what I get on YT and the timeline for it. And yes, Dropout is really tempting, very entertaining clips keep showing up in my recommendations, I think they've really made RUclips work for them, but I am somewhat sated by what I get on YT for now.
I don't believe I've ever watched Watcher (or if I did it was completely in passing/briefly some episode), it definitely strikes me -- taking what you note at face value -- that yeah: they really hadn't thought things through. Hopefully for their fans/subscribers the error can be corrected... though I imagine, again like you say, there is some permanent damage done that may no be readily fixed.
Really wonderful video! I also wonder if they considered the impact of their global audience, which countries have the highest patreon/youtube members and what’s the US/local currency exchange rate? What’s the equivalent of 5.99 in their countries?
Oh they absolutely did not. There were people who wanted to sign up, and couldn't because it's only on dollars which will add fees for international audience. On Top of that, when you pay monthly you basically can never know how much you actually end up paying, because of the exchange rate
@10:00 since dropout had their own service 10M is only part of the viewership (it's probably not that much bigger but it's probably quite a few thousands even if not millions). Even in then,you can pay for the subscription on YT too (either way you have access to their discord). And they do make almost all of it available for free after like 3 or 4 years I think. Generally they were lucky that Sam Reich is LOADED and that some people who are left wing aren't just so on paper, even if they're from a rich background. ...ALso I'm pretty sure Brennan is their mascot at this point
Yep, ther a re a lot of factors that help dropout tv, including their known legacy to have fun personalities, and bring out sucesses like adam ruins everything. And be transparent. Yeah brennan is definitly their face, which shows they do know how to do actual good marketing, they still drop regular episodes on youtube to remember people dropout exists, bu atre good content to watch. Brennan was a good choice ok, he is likable, charismatic, funny , attractive and , really hot through that. Ok i have bias. But he definitly is the face of them now, and good move pr wise.
Doesnt drop out have other channels posting shorts of the stuff on their subscription service? Like im curious how many views on say the " name that bird" clip from game changer actually had when you count everyone that posted it, watched the full version on their subscription service, plus people that did animation on it, etc. As an example. Also, i did do drop out for a month, if your looking to economize. I watched the shows i wanted like um actually for a month, and ill go back to it at a later and pay for 1 month.
Just FYI, Dropout allows channel members access to the full gambit of dropout content without the headache of adding another account and password without leaving the RUclips platform. This allows the company to give the audience the content whilst still getting paid by those prefer the convenience of RUclips.
I agree with everything in this video (good work as always. Always a pleasure to see your face and hear your voice) Theres a few details i think are always dropped as to why the audience really puffed up the way they did Like they didnt plug their patreon at all to the point that many followers of the channel, didnt know it existed There was another point i wanted to touch but i forgot it as i watched the video
I remembered They actually did act their patreon a long time ago exactly once about a streaming service and were going to completely shaft the patreon in the change over for only podcasts Fuck why do i keep forgetting my next point
Remembered again They werent just going to leave youtube and move new content. They were going to entirely nerf their channel All of their backlog was going to be deleted. They said it vaguely in the video but they told variety that was exactly what they were going to do. Then walked it back within hours and tried to make it seem like a rumor. It was really skummy
It would be really nice to see you on nebula if that’s something you want to do and can feasibly do because there’s such a wealth of trans and nerd culture creators like Jessie who you mentioned and I would love to be able to contribute more to your videos outside of the Patreon model which I’m wary of rn I do support half a dozen people on Patreon but the fees have been increasing and making it harder to support everyone on a disabled income.
Is that an alexandrite pendant? It’s stunning, my favorite gem by far followed by peridot. I don’t have anything but nice or relevant to say about them lol
I have a Nebula subscription specifically because I am then helping support a whole bunch of my favorite creators, who I can't afford getting even 1 or 2 usd patreon subscriptions for each. Another streaming service would have to either also support a bunch of people I would like to support, or have a big and interesting enough catalogue to rival the other entertainment subscription services out there, or it just isn't something I could possibly consider.
Putting my two cents in as somebody who enjoys a few of Watcher’s stuff, the variety of their content is also a huge area of concern. Their biggest things that I can name off the top off my head are Ghost Files, Puppet History, Are You Scared, Too Many Spirits. That’s a ghost hunting show, a history game show, ghost stories, and a drinking game with ghost stories. That does not variety make. Additionally, while on the topic of variety, their slate of hosts is really just down to three guys: Shane, Ryan, and the other guy who’s name I forget. Three dudes, and their personalities are kind of just that: three average straight dudes just hangin’ out. Compare that to something like DropOut where there was a wider cast of characters you had grown to know from their skits and there was personality already kind of established with everyone. (Personally I like that DropOut has not shied away from overt queer rep either which is not something I really see from Watcher either, but I know that’s not really the focus. Just a personal thing.)
I have never heard of these guys and Dropout clips will show up in my shorts on cycles, but the OG for this was Nerdist and Geeks & Sundry trying to make Alpha back in 2016. I would watch Nerdist all the time before that, but the content wasn't there after and a lot of the talent left. It is barely a shell of what it was.
I'm still of the opinion that if they partnered with an existing creator owned streaming service they would've got a much better reaction, especially because it would make signing up a lot more worthwhile since it wouldn't just be their big three shows (ghost files/mystery files/puppet history) which are the only things I think the majority of us were there for in the first place yet aren't enough on their own for us casual viewers especially us broke casual viewers to sign up.
I have no idea who these Watcher people are, just like I had no idea MrBeast existed until my nephew mentioned him. This kinda sounds like how Vtuber agency Nijisanji screwed up massively recently... Boy what a story THAT is.
Clarification: At one point I said that the guys at Watcher "don't have employees to blame," and kind of misstated what I meant. I do know that they have employees, but they don't have the kind of employees they can pass the buck to the way that say a company can blame the sales team for not selling a bad idea well enough.
You messed up.
They are at the top of the ladder so it's very true that they don't have anyone to blame but themselves it's not like an Intern tricked them into doing this.
An excellent video as per usual and I hope Nebula contacts you it would only be a benefit to them to bring you in.
I knew what you meant :)
@@JogproofI've been tempted to pay the nebula subscription and if Vera were picked by them, I would totally do it
So, Watcher has two shows that are essentially just them reading fan submitted stories and interjecting with banter. The shadiest thing about this whole mess imo is the fact that they took submissions for both these shows recently (one last month, one three months before that) without telling the fans who submitted that they were intending on putting those new seasons behind a pay wall.
Very shady & really just lets their audience know that they’re a cash cow.
@peekaboo7424 Yeah, I took note of the fact that when they were talking about how grateful they were for all the ways their fans supported them in their apology video; giving them content to monetise was not on the list.
LMAO
My assumption as to why they were so confident that people would follow them over was that people kind of already did - they got their audience from when they worked at Buzzfeed, and when they left a lot of us happily followed them over, because it wasn't Buzzfeed's brand we were watching for, it was their personalities, but... well, there's a difference between unsubscribing from one channel and subscribing to a new one for free and having all content suddenly cut off and put behind a paywall.
I was a patron and paid yearly. They wanted us to also pay for the service. They showed us their true colors, they won't get a dollar from me anymore.
I was thinking about it too. They could have said that the patreons would have access to the videos without having to pay extra or something like that, even if it’s only for the middle-to-higher tiers, but no. They wanted you all to pay twice, wtf
Same-we too were/are Patrons (paid up for the year). They got their money’s worth from us all right.
They won’t get another brass farthing, however, that much i can tell you. Watcher burnt their bridge with us.
They said to message them and they’d give existing Patrons access for free.
It’s not a long video, and they addressed it like half way through 🤷♀️
I feel like dropout also has a lot more people in front of the camera than Watcher which probably helps their catalogue to feel more diverse and interesting, even just ignoring the greater variety in shows
Yeah $6 a month during a beta phase for ONE channel?
This. For me, paying for Dropout already makes sense so they can pay guests. Personally I do not see anything in Watchers content that needed to be meaningfully cut in that case.
They also make more than 2 hours of content a month.
also Dropout was a bit more of a transition instead of a "yall can afford $6 😊"
Also dropout has , brannens use as face is excelent, he is really lovable, college humor rreally is good utilizing personalities in content to be fun, and brannen is no exception.
Also they still put stuff on youtube, as appitizer.
Plus they really, have a legacy and yeah have a histoty of diverse people that , makes trust more they really have a diversity of fun content.
As an occasional Dropout subscriber, I have to add something to the discussion:
They have made it very easy to someone poor like me to stop subscribing awhile and come back when I can. The website does ask you why and have reasonable answers listed on it, what to me feels like they know their audience and don't shame you for not having money to subscribe.
Overall they feel really nice to anyone who wants to support them in any way that person can, without forcing you to anything or without making you feel bad.
I have no idea how they managed to be that nice about it, while having very real difficulties to get to this point that they can actually start making money.
I want to add to that by saying that Dropout are also actively supporting password sharing with friends who can't afford the sub.
Dropout has been amazing and I keep coming back when I can.
@@CavishBeka well they probably understand if u could pay for your own subscription to them u more than likely would and not make people feel like they are stealing the ability to watch them cause they may have been in that situation themselves
@kevin10001 Absolutely. And we know how ragingly anti-capitalist especially Brennan is. They need to make some money to do what they do, and they are realistic about it, but they don't try to squeeze their fans for more than they are willing and able to give them. When Netflix announced once more to crack down on password sharing, Sam immediately tweeted something along the lines of "when it comes to Dropout, sharing is caring".
It's my genuine pleasure to pay money to them every month, knowing it goes to good people and not into some cooperate void.
From watching Fantasy High Sophomore Year (originally twitch live streams), they seem to have offered a lot of low introductory prices and special offers to fans. Plus the fact that they had Twitch streams of an entire campaign earlier on in Dropout’s history says a lot about transitioning from RUclips/free content to “paywall.”
I think another factor here in the comparison to Dropout is how Dropout started off as an extra thing on top of CollegeHumor. CH would put out their usual sketches and Dropout was a service for their more budget pushing shows but also the game shows/improv that weren't the usual fair for CH. After Sam took over - and especially during Covid - the sketches became less focused on and the game shows/improv got more focus and eventually became what the channel was known for. The shift from CH the youtube channel to Dropout the service was a gradual evolution that was not planned out the way Watcher has done here. They didn't just say 'We have a streaming service guys, bai', it was gradual, and to try and replicate that success is reminding me of DCEU rushing to get to where Marvel already was.
I also think it's worth noting that if you want to access Dropout's subscription stuff on RUclips - they have a way to subscribe via youtube as well - making it easier to onboard new people (I mean that's how I started subscribing (I had to find out what "Hello, I'm... fifty?" was referring to))
yes! you've said it perfectly.
Dropout also has a ton of clips on RUclips. Even as someone who doesn't pay for their own subs (my in-laws have subs everyone in the family uses), I've subbed to Dropout and occasionally check back in because the clips are just so damn good. I used to watch a lot of Watcher stuff, but I just got bored after a while. There isn't really anything new and exciting to draw you in and make you want to pay $6 for unless you're extremely into their specific niche being repeated over and over.
CollegeHumor also had a lot of diverse channels, with their own followings, that they could involve and advertise on.
Like, I only knew about Dropout existing, because I'd been watching Drawfee.
As someone who has been a casual viewer of Watcher and glued to this drama;
1. Honestly, besides MAYBE the big three (Ghost Files / Mystery Files / Puppet History), I would say their content really doesn't veer too far away from very standard RUclips content. Like "Top 5 Beatdown" is just Ryan, Shane and a guest (or two) ranking their top 5 (whatever) and arguing over it. It is very personality driven- as can be seen by the fact that the numbers between the Ryan and Shane content and almost anything else is... pretty disparate.
2. I'm not sure what the case is with Vimeo, but the streaming service is hosted by them. It's not like they were building their own streaming service from the ground up - they were just moving to a host that let them do that.
But yeah, this has been such a mess. If you want extra layers of insanity - they announced this literally the Friday before Ryan and Shane came over to the UK to host live shows (/record for Ghost Files). They absolutely were not planning for people to dislike this.
Dropout is also hosted on Vimeo
Its nice to hear someone talk about the Watcher stuff without just shitting on the Watcher crew about 'ruining their careers' for drama RUclipsr clicks
Ive liked Shane and Ryan since thier Buzzfeed days, and while im disappointed in a move like this, the sheer amount of vitriol being thrown at them just seems... overkill
Nice to hear someone talk about this more constructively, but thats the kind of quality content i follow this channel for anyway
Yeah, it's not like they killed somebody. People should be allowed to make mistakes and learn from them.
Well put
I’ve said on other videos that I’m willing to forgive, but won’t be quick to forget. Like yes, they made a mistake, but I don’t think they’re irredeemable
I really respect Dropout and Sam Reich as a business and CEO respectively. They somewhat recently did a price increase of a dollar, but they didn't change that for old subscribers; if you subscribed at the old price you get the old price, even if you're on a month to month payment plan. They also recently raised like $100,000 for charity which is super based and cool of them
Yep. And as a recent Dropout subscriber, I don't begrudge longer-time viewers their lower price one bit, because it (a) reinforces that the price *I* signed up for won't increase anytime soon, (b) even if it did, their transparency to date means that I'm more than willing to hear them out on the reasons why, and (c) all of this can only help them draw even more subscribers, thereby allowing them to keep the lights on and the talent properly compensated for their contributions. It's a win-win-win model all around.
Dropout doesn't just release full episodes, they'll release full season. For example, Dimension 20 has: the first two seasons of Fantasy High, Escape from the Bloodkeep, and Neverafter. All full and free on RUclips. There might be more. I haven't checked recently.
As for Watcher, I think they overcorrected. If I need to wait a month than I'll wait a month. I'm still a bit disappointed in them so I don't feel like supporting their streaming service due to how this went down. They also haven't got enough people I want to see.
Dropout has nailed it. Don't leave RUclips entirely. Be personality based. Have a more of a library to share. No surprises.
How did they overcorrect?
Hearing from a much larger RUclips creator than myself that not all of your subs are going to watch everything that you put out was very comforting. Thank you for that.
Part of the problem may be that when they left Buzzfeed, a huge amount of people followed them to Watcher. They had a pretty dedicated fanbase who would regularly post on Buzzfeed videos saying they missed Ryan and Shane, even though there was no chance of those guys returning. It would be hard for that not to go to someone's head, so I guess they assumed people would follow them to their streaming service.
Also, for as positive as the fandom seems to have been up to this point, I think it tipped into the realm of never giving them criticism. Because when this happened, there were so many sentiments like "oh I can finally say I haven't enjoyed this as much as Unsolved!"
@@nicoler5713 Mystery Files isn't as good as Buzzfeed Unsolved, but Puppet History is much better than Ruining History. I do think that the idea that they ended up in a positive feedback bubble inspiring such a bone head move definitely makes a lot of sense.
@@nicoler5713I noticed even in the Goodbye RUclips video the comments were still polite. There was no one being rude and saying “Ya know what?! Fuck you guys!” Or anything like that. It was all constructive criticism and expressing how disappointed they were.
The biggest difference between them leaving Buzzfeed to do Watcher and their original plan here is that it was more them following their audience to youtube than their audience following them from Buzzfeed to a platform they were not using before. Considering their Buzzfeed shows were hosted on youtube already, it's likely that people had already for the most part long independently skipped the part where they went to Buzzfeed's website to find the content. Even though from the creator's POV it was a big operations migration on their side, it was pretty insignificant from the POV of the audience. At least in terms of what was being asked of them. To them, that's just clicking like four buttons to update to what channel they were following on the same platform without really changing anything about the way they seek out and consume the content.
Utterly baffling that Watcher thought they could “leave” RUclips. Dropout is all over YT and rightly so (How else would I have heard about them?) Just unbelievable arrogance throughout this whole thing.
I’ve been a viewer of them for years, and I feel pretty confident in saying that if they’d asked their audience, the majority of their fans would have offered genuine opinions and constructive criticism. Sure, there’d be some trolls, but they’d be a small fraction of the whole. That’s what’s so sad about this-the Watcher boys had cultivated an almost unheard of audience of people who were very supportive and understanding. Their audience wanted to see them succeed, and they supported them in any way they could.
No one would have expected this from them, and it was a big “F you” to the very people who got them where they are. I still can’t understand how they got it to the point of being ready to launch and no one, not their huge staff, their family and friends or business associates said “this is a really, really bad idea”?! Or did they get that pushback and ignore it? How did this even happen?!
While we don't have official numbers for Dropout, we do know two things from interviews. One: they did a profit share last year, which certainly suggests they're doing well. Two: they roughly have around a million subscribers ("mid-six figures" at the end of 2022 which "almost doubled" by the end of 2023), which means tens of millions a year in revenue. I don't have the industry knowledge to put that into context, but it feels like a high number.
yeah i was about to comment that it felt as though dropouts success was being a little downplayed here
But also what was learn from podcasts that it took them awhile to get there and Sam had to pay a lot of from his own money to break even at first, but now things are getting better.
I think other folks have said similar, but Dropout stuff is Varied and Compelling.
Dimension 20 is actual narrative, and a ton of the improv stuff is ppl who write and perform comedy successfully professionally as their careers. EVEN WHEN IT'S IMPROV you can feel the amount of work that goes into everything. Even behind-the-scenes shorts!
If I'm actively watching a season of D20, I wanna catch that live or close to, so it's not spoiled. If I see a clip from a game changer episode I haven't seen, I want to go watch the full ep before I spoil the rules for myself.
And when the rest of the content is at least frequently enjoyable, it doesn't take very much of the "have to see it live" content to seal the deal.
Watcher has some good stuff, some stuff I really like, but none of it is compelling enough to make me go: "oh, I need to see this fast so it doesn't get spoiled for me".
Some of Watcher's stuff is very polished... But a bunch of it is much more like a casual podcast but with some set dressing. So whether or not it IS low-effort (like responding into a mic to audience submissions), it FEELS low effort, and also very same-y.
And again, so far it's just the three of them, and it feels like deadspace between seasons.
Dropout releases something new every day or every other day, for at least one show, and even when that content is like a 6 minute Behind The Scenes video, what they're doing behind the scenes Is Interesting, and as far as I can tell, the audience Actually Asked to see more of it! (Like the Wild Makeup transformations for Very Important People, or the planning, prep, and contingency responses for game changer, etc)
Speaking of frequency and diversity of content, Something that's been interesting to watch (especially is the field of Former Buzzfeed Creators) is the way the try guys have broadened their "cast", have made it be more about the kind of stuff they do, and less about the individual guys.
That's part of how they have survived the shitshow that was Ned "the wife guy" cheating on said wife with an employee and getting rightfully ousted.
I don't think Watcher is in a position to survive, for example, something wild happening with one of the ghost boys and bounce back.
For dropout, however, if a single show does poorly? That's fine, they have more, and new ones out all the time. If a single actor or writer has a problem? That's fine, they have a wide cast who have good chemistry, AND they appear to have put in A LOT OF WORK to try to have things like a healthy and transparent workplace.
It would be Hard if something huge bad were to happen with, say, Sam Reich or Brennan Lee Mulligan, but the format and diversity of the content I think allows them a lot more latitude to change gears (is Brennan the heart of D20 and a highly compelling actor elsewhere, yes, but they Have had other ppl GM D20 seasons- they might survive it. Is a lot of the goodwill towards dropout tied up in Sam Reich being a good and honest guy? Yeah, but they've survived loosing their CEOs etc before.).
Honestly, I think the better comparison is between Watcher and Rhett&Link/Good mythical morning, which Knows it's niche, knows folks are there FOR RHETT AND LINK and not for variety, and sticks to form. And I think it's why their additional podcasts, occasional more adventurous videos, and occasional live/ticketed shows work- Rhett and Link (and their team) seem to have a very good understanding of who their core audience is, and what they're looking for/willing to fund.
This is the difference I think between AN ORGANIZATION vs A CREATOR-
Dropout feels like a company, an organization, a Brand, broad and varied, and like a thing that should reasonably have it's own dedicated space... Watcher is still (in size, in name recog, and quantity of content) v much A CREATOR or A Team. It's still Three Dudes And The Stuff They Wanna Talk About... And no 3 dudes can sustain, like, a whole TV channel by themselves. And viewers subscribers etc pick up on the difference.
Acshually is a pretty fun game show from nerds for nerds. And thats, ok they really diversify content and personalities. plus from the legacy they earned the trust to be funny i would guess. And yeah they have practically professional actors and improv comedy people.
This reminds me of what the Sidemen did. But the difference is, the Sidemen created their streaming service as an added on extra with exclusive videos and still carried on RUclips. The biggest mistake here is saying they wanted to leave RUclips and just do the streaming
Between this and Swell Entertainment’s videos I’m starting to understand this whole thing. But I just think it shows how out of touch the Watcher guys are. I used to watch Unsolved but watcher was just never as good. I can’t imagine how they thought this was going to go well. I don’t think it was malicious but very much out of touch with their audience and most people’s current financial situation.
As someone who was a dropout subscriber from almost inception (wasn't immediately available in my country) and who has religiously been subscribed whenever I have had the money over the last five years, the thing you said about transparency was always a BIG thing for me. When the initial dropping of their corporate overlord happened, I was subscribed. I remember the tweets from all the cast members, I remember seeing that they were down to two salaried workers (Brennan and Sam, the owner) and I remember being so worried about their future. But Sam did an announcement explaining what happened, explaining that their content wasn't going to be 100% for a while, and asking that people keep subscribing if they could afford to. And it really spoke to me! I was so glad that it wasn't a "there is no war in ba-sing-se" response. They were upfront, and got that emotional connection, and then DELIVERED on their promise later. I will probably never unsubscribe from dropout. They are my number one most recommended streaming service.
For me, the two big things that separate the Dropout situation from the Watcher situation is: 1. Dropout was going to stop existing and everyone rallied because it wasn’t fair, (also reminiscent of the Smosh situation) and 2. their content was and is diverse enough that there is something for a lot of different people.
If Watcher had gone with a subscription service when they left Buzzfeed and started their company, it could have worked. But the way they did it made them out to be money hungry and out of touch with the audience they cultivated.
I fell in love with Ryan and Shane on BuzzFeed Unsolved and religiously watched every episode that dropped for Unsolved but I've only watched a handful of Watcher videos since they've gone to that channel.
...same tbh
The comparison to Dropout and how transparent it is is pretty apt. The Watcher announcement invited a lot of scrutiny into their financials that wasn't there before that might be the hardest to recover from. I like their shows and watch a few of them regularly, but the idea that they cannot be paid for with their current audience is insane. There are channels out there doing comparable content with less. It's clear they do not know how to efficiently run an operation of this size and that should be addressed before even thinking about expanding in any capacity. It really didn't help the optics of it all when the streaming announcement was paired with the announcement of a new (well, returning from the Buzzfeed era) show where they eat luxury food items. It's all very out of touch.
re: Dropout, I'm not gonna tell you that you should subscribe, but I will say I'm subscribed and am VERY happy with the content they put out.
(Not a shill, I just like them) Dropout is the only streaming service that I don't feel guilty paying for
I'd cancel Netflix before I cancel Dropout
I used to be a subscriber to Watcher. I haven't financially invested in them, but I enjoyed their ghost files.
This move left such a bad taste in my mouth I'm not going back, it felt very disrespectful to the very audience that made these opportunities possible.
Dropout was also in a very different position when they launched. It wasn't "we're doing great, now pay us," it was "we're on the brink of destruction, please help save us."
Ehhhhhhhh, that's not fully accurate. Keep in mind Dropout initially launched when College Humor (because the rebrand hadn't happened yet) was doing fine; the initial pitch of Dropout was "we'll keep doing what we do here on RUclips but there's new exclusive stuff over here." It was only after the parent company decided to burn it all down for the insurance money that Sam scooped up the ashes and said "hey, without this there will be literally nothing, please help."
@@CouncilofGeeks Whoops. My apologies, I was mistaken about the timeline. Thanks for the correction. I do still think that the collapse of College Humour has led to a very different audience mindset in regards to Dropout though, and helped to set a narrative other than the creators looking to get paid for otherwise free content. Great video as always, by the way.
@@richardwilliams2808 oh yeah in terms of the current perception of Dropout that’s a major difference, no disagreement.
The Watcher video was so close to TwoSet Violin's April Fools' Day video that I immediately looked at the date they published it and got confused. Maybe they should have published it on April 1 and said nothing either way about whether it was real and sat back and read people's reactions and went from there.
Here's something to add to the comparison: Watcher has a show called "Worth It", wherein they endulge in things like private jets, very expensivee dinners, etc. They went on and on in their announcement that the reason was to maintain and elevate their production value. First thing I would do is cancel Worth It completely. Even if the extravagant experiences are sponsored or comped, you still have to take a crew and shoot long days.
They have another show that I really adore: Puppet History. But it does feel like a ripoff of Drunk History - the only difference is that they aren't drunk. As far as we know. But it's pretty rough hewn so I"m assuming is low production value.
I am also a Dropout paid subscriber, and there isn't a day I regret that decision. For me, there isn't enough content on Watcher now, for free, that I ever considered paying for. If their production value is why this is necessary, maybe they need to scale it back?
"Worth It" was a Buzzfeed show, not a Watcher one. While they may have referenced it since changing over, it's still not a show that watcher makes. (you might be mixing up "Worth A Shot" with the original "Worth It," and they are _very_ different shows. On that note, Ricky is a f**king delight and is very underutilized.)
@@Arcanist_Gaming they announced that the one show that was going to premiere on the streaming service at launch was a show called Travel Season which was just the Watcher version of Worth it, but with them taking expensive international trips to try the expensive food. OP got the names mixed up, but it is something they're making.
@@kevinandorsusie lmao. okay, then. Not gonna lie, that sounds like a terrible idea. Worth it wasn't even that good lol (I guess I liked the other guy, I think his name was Andrew?)
Love Puppet History but I definitely would not pay another streaming service for it.
You’re right about Worth It. It’s def not appropriate atm.
I think the other thing is that the streaming landscape looks much different now than it did a few years ago. Back in the day, it was a novel idea, for roughly the price of a Starbucks, you can have all this content you love! But since then we've all layered on the services until it adds up to quite a bit. And the last thing anyone wants to add is yet ANOTHER subscription. We've got subscription fatigue and it has be outstanding for people to take the plunge anymore. (And Patreon isn't the same thing because you're not locked in to anything. You can quit whenever and have control over what you pay).
They have to realize that everyone can be replaced. They’re not that special.
Yes, this is the sad reality. I think they let the minor celebrity status get to their heads.
@@elhazthorn918 I think that played into it, but I also think they were, sort of, telling the truth in their motivations that the RUclips algorithm and advertisers are a PITA. Additionally, they also, I think, were trying to do this to avoid making hard decisions.
They have at least 25 employess (some have said more like 30) and for a company their size, that makes the amount of content that they do...that's just way too many!
They mentioned not wanting to lay people off, but if they're having budget problems they really need to. In one of their videos that was just the two guys playing a videogame they credited 11 people. Who truly needs a crew of 11 to film a videogame play video?
They've given too many jobs to family and friends, and now don't want to be the bad guy and tell people they need to go, eventhough they really need to reduce staff.
my heart dropped thinking they had done something, i'm so glad it's just this. I was like "no, you'll take my professor from my cold dead hands" lol
This very much was very kindly phrased (imo) and very helpful for noticing pitfalls
The other big problem with watcher as compared to dropout... dropout has a large variety of personalities. They have a broad fan base that like a lot of their stuff. Watcher has two people *hate to tell Steven lim this but he's not a draw) and two shows.
I mean... sure, I enjoyed puppet history but that was something I watched 1 or 2 episodes of. Too man spirits is fun but hardly a draw to make me part with money. Ghost files and mystery files are it.
And I have to say... I am not alone in remarking both of those shows are a lot less interesting the more production they put into it. I hate to say it but Shane and Ryan were just more fun when they sat in a basement with one iPhone pointed at them ruffing on this stuff.
Point blank - watcher doesn't have the celebrity to pull this off. MAYBE if they brought another channel with them... it might have worked.
Secret Base announced the start of their Patreon in the wake of the Watcher mess, and even referenced it obliquely while they spelled out why they’re doing it and even discussing when content that premieres on Patreon will hit RUclips. Additionally, Second Wind has been VERY open about their operations since leaving The Escapist. It all runs back around to being honest. If you lie, the camera will figure it out.
doesnt second wind literally post their financial and everyones monthly wages etc? theyre literally rawdogging the industry its crazy to see
Oh goody, a new installment in the genre of "I had never heard of your until you messed up" RUclips genre
I've only kinda been aware of this controversy because I don't watch many Watcher vids, but the section you had on giving your fans advance notice before cutting down on stuff reminded me of when Tom Scott announced he eventually plans to leave youtube, because I really appreciated the gesture from him. He was doing weekly vids for ten years and basically told his audience that he'll still put stuff out, but that it will be out less often and he's got other projects going on. He gave his audience a ton of advance notice, explained why he was cutting back, and was genuinely grateful for his viewers.
It's really nice when someone you watch shows that they do care about what their audience thinks, so thank you for making this video pointing that out. Fingers crossed that Nebula gets in touch!
Sam Reich has said that their subscriber numbers are in the "mid-hundreds of thousands", which a lot of people have interpreted as not quite hitting 500k yet, as it would be easier to say "half a million". They've also been a lot more sensible about their staff - they are only now reaching 20-25 staff, even doing so much more content than Watcher (generally, four-ish shows a week).
there's only two ways to not depend on RUclips. The Nebula way and the Dropout way.
Nebula creators are still almost universally on RUclips. for most of them, it's a minority of content that gets paywalled. Nebula is essentially like if a ton of creators pooled under the same Patreon.
Dropout built themselves VERY slowly. they perfected their content over years. they got some of the best talent out there (ehm Brennan Lee Mulligan), and most importantly - they suffered blows. when their parent company decided to drop them because it wasn't worth the investment, they cut staff and reworked production. they were also lucky to have their platform at the golden age of streaming - the pandemic.
if you can't be Nebula or Dropout - you WILL fail.
Dropout legitimately sold out madison square garden a few weeks ago. Obviously i don't know the numbers but i think they are going pretty okay at least
I don't think i have seen anyone mention that to my knowledge, Dropout never had a patreon or was crowd funded. To be crowd funded through patreon and have a seperate streaming service that you want people to also pay for sounds insane.
If as a fan I’m willing to patiently see how this pans out for them over the coming months/years I’m more than willing to wait a month for the content.
This was a really measured well done coverage of this, I appreciated your insights into it.
One step closer to the Council of Geeks/ FDSignifier collab I didn’t think I needed until now
boosting your engagement because you fully deserve it!
I haven't really watched any of the Watcher series, so I'm not personally invested in this situation. I've been a RUclips Premium subscriber for years.
I am supporting some smaller creators on Patreon, and I'm a member of the Mythical society, but I think this is about all I'm willing to give to my favourite creators. The thing is, even if I have a quite small number of channels I watch all the time, I watch random videos around an interesting topic less regularly, and if everyone suddenly stopped youtube and started their own platforms, I'd simply cut down on watching time rather than subscribe to a dozen different channels.
I have no proof for any of this, but it smacks of either an over-enthusiastic management company or Vimeo trying to expand the reach of their streaming service SaaS. That’s the only reason any of this would make sense, and I’d be genuinely interested to find out what happened behind the scenes of this very bad idea.
Key point of agreement; I follow so many people here on RUclips that even though I have gotten a nebula membership, I don’t use it too often because I just don’t have the time to devote to curating my view time across multiple apps
I think they should’ve just repped their patreon harder and used that to provide more exclusive content. Maybe I’m flighty but I didn’t even know they had a patreon
Thanks for your nuanced business take on this situation! I've been following Watcher since they launched and was as wrongfooted as all the rest when their Goodbye RUclips video went up. What actually made me a lot more forgiving to the boys' initial move wasn't even their apology video, but the out of proportion "fan" response to the news. The amount of racism Steven and Ryan had thrown at them by their "supporters" was totally gross and then some people came after the wives for daring to stand with their husbands' business decisions and for...having had nice weddings?... It was wild and I was ashamed to be a witness to all of it, especially since I apparently wasn't as parasocially attached as I had previously assumed (because I was never angry about the decision, just sad.) I haven't watched any other outside perspectives aside from yours because they all seemed to be "drama tubers," and I don't have the trust built into them like I have after watching your takes for years. Thanks for tackling this issue and being respectful of both the fanbase and the creatives!
I think if this was more than just Watcher there is a market for the kind of former Buzzfeed reality shy type content to form a nebula type service. If it was going to actually be viable they would need probably the Try Guys and a few people like Sophia Nygard, or Michele Kahn to make the value proposition enough to justify it at launch. One of the main reasons I won’t go for Dropout is that they just don’t have enough variety to make it worth it for me.
Honestly. If they had launched Fuzzbeed, a creator led platform for high quality videos, maybe MAYBE people would have been on board. But watching steven eat disgusting decadant bourgeois crap for 6 dollars? Andy Warhol already did that in the 80s.
Agreed
A lot of people have some great input into this situation. I will add to the conversation by saying this, if you pay enough attention to the way the talent speaks about Dropout most of them are working freelance, or only paid for the gigs they do with dropout, only some production staff and ongoing stars (probably brennan) are paid like full salaries because trying to get the streaming service up and going must have been incredibly expensive. Watcher thought they could take their full 20 people staff, and probably overblown talent salaries and just continue to fund everything the same. I also want to remind everyone that Watcher is investor driven. So to recap, they wanted to start a full subscription, while making money for investors and keeping all salaries the same for their 20 something staff. It seems super far fetched to do that off of subscribers who were already going to shows, paying for merch, watching your ads, and paying for your patreon.
What you talked about at the end of your video reminded me of a trope I really hate in, well, pretty much any TV show or movie.
Character A: "I have a great plan, it's [this]."
Character B: "What if it doesn't work?"
Character A: "It'll work, trust me."
NO. NOPE. NO. THAT'S NOT WHAT WAS ASKED.
A few days late, but I'ld like to say that it seems like non-scripted, non-drama shows are just a hard sell for its own streaming service (with possibly exception of game shows). I feel like people are more likely to pay for a service that provides scripted fictional dramas (not drama as in genre but in the category). And even then, nowadays we can even see full, well-produced and acted dramas on youtube, (i.e Thai dramas with English subtitles). And independent creators who make short films, sketches, short series, and even interactive content like what Markiplier did. The level of free content is so high, selling anything less behind a paywall seems like a wild miscalculation.
i'm not like the biggest fan of their content but am an occasional viewer (watcher haha) and when i saw the title of THAT video i thought it was a late april fool's joke. i was like no way are they just up and quitting without any warning. and my goodness the comments on that video were a sight to see
Nebula is a different beast altogether it’s more like a paid subscription version of RUclips in a way but a lot of the creators on it still do RUclips content cause of it’s no fully feasible to lock all there content behind a paywall and like Scott thst was used in this video is on nebula but still had his nerdsync channel even though he pretty much shifted it to a more Scooby-Doo channel instead of the comic book based channel it used to be when I found it but it’s still an interesting channel to watch like me finding this channel from the doctor who content but will watch more then that even break room content
If you're interested in getting dropout but are worried about finances I'd suggest paying for their youtube channel membership! All of their content is also on there and from what I remember it's slightly cheaper than dropout platform subscription. I'd say it's definitely worth it
Yep and they actually still drop episodes on youtube. Ok i get its good marketing as appitizer, but its good content to get a taste. And good marketing as them regular dropping shows they still exist.
"We messed up" I've heard so many youtuber apologies start like this I swear to god 😂
THANK YOU FOR THIS COMPARISON!!! I’ve been internally screaming it since the Watcher talk started. People kept making a comparison to Netflix when the dropout one makes so much more sense.
Don’t watch a lot of Watcher but Puppet History is a good watch. I like the earlier eps because I find the lower production value more approachable. Shane’s creativity definitely deserves the higher production $$$s but I just haven’t invested my time.
Thank you for this tl;dr version of what seems to be becoming a _very_ long saga!
"The sheer f*cking hubris." - Admiral Clancy
The lazy malevolent explanation is greed, but hubris makes way more sense. I totally agree with you their backpedalling shows they didn't plan correctly their thing. This backpedalling is basically about turning their streaming platform into an empty shell that will make them lose a reasonable amount of money.
They probably didn't even realize that streaming platforms make their money with subscribers that don't use that much their account. The few die-hard fans who will massively watch their videos on the platform will cost them money because of the bandwidth consumption, etc.
From what I understood, their intent was to provide content with bigger financial requirements. So they assumed the thing with new operation cost would instantly unlock them new budgets? It's a bold strategy.
It's also a bold thing to make such a move with let's say such an unclear editorial identity (I'm not sure how to phrase it). As soon as you understand Dropout is the reincarnation of College Humor, you'll understand this revolves around comedy. There's Humor in their former name after all. Or simpler than that, you tell them Dropout makes comedy. So, what makes or is Watcher? I understand well, there's true crime stuff and foooood stuff?...and a puppet? It doesn't seem to be about a genre but about the hosts.
The biggest problem with TheWatcher content imo is that you can’t justify the amount of money and resources they spend making their content. For example most of their content covers the same niche as the Chilluminati podcast and those guys have a bigger audience and don’t spend a fraction of the money and resources on production the Watcher does. With the exception of Puppet history and the hunting house trips, all their content could be audio only and still be as entertaining.
RUclips needs a Pepsi but what we have is the local brewed cola.
I trawled comments for hours (it was darkly entertaining, oddly reassuring and people are funny), I never saw them directly compared to Nebula, I only saw people suggest they should have *joined* Nebula, or pointed out how Nebula does a YT based streaming service properly so it was used to contrast against Watchers move. Watcher was compared to Dropout but more people were comparing them to Rooster Teeth and a few other failed single YT channel streamers (failed so bad I can’t even remember names off the top of my head). People were pointing out how Nebulas model would have worked well for them and that Nebula charged half the price for quantity wise more, as well as variety wise more, content than they were offering plus were funding high production value projects which would have fit with Watchers goals. Even in comparing them to dropout I don’t think Watcher really grasped *why* Dropout works while seemingly attempting to follow in their footsteps hence the comparison there.
The Ghoul Boys should have consulted with you first!!!
Btw Don't think we didn't notice your nails matching your glasses frames. Very nice 😊
Dropout is definitely worth it. but yea we're all broke all the time. Id love to go on Nebula but I can only do one streaming service at a time. I binge whatever and then switch lol.
There is so much wrong with what they tried to do. I followed them from Buzzfeed, I have unsubscribed.
One of them recently had a $250,000 wedding, they're highest Patreon tier is $100 a month. They're merch is more expensive than CLOAK. It goes on...
Patreon members had to pay on top of the Patreon for the streaming service, the original plan was to delist their old videos and put those behind the paywall.
One last point. $6 a month being "affordable for everyone " is tone deaf not only in the current financial crisis, but to international fans.
Here to boost the algorithm. Have a super weekend, everybody! Thanks for all your work, Vera.
Oh hey I’m in this! Haha
Heck you can practically take partial credit for, because seeing your little video was what got me thinking more about it until I was did my usual heavy sigh and went "ok, yeah I do have a video's worth of thoughts on this."
I love hearing y’all’s thoughts on this kind of stuff, if you have the energy and time it’d be cool to see another video about this situation!
Also I hope you’re both doing well!🤗
I have dropout for d20 but I also follow their short channels on YT even tho I don't watch those shows cuz they're so funny and they're slowly getting me to watch other stuff through those shorts
The biggest thing for me is that I'm just sick of having to subscribe to a hundred different streaming services. I have Dropout because it's a great value in terms of entertainment vs cost, but even if I'd even heard of these guys or liked their channel, I wouldn't be interested.
Something really great that has come from all of this drama, are the many content creators that I didn’t know about, until now. I have heard some _solid_ takes, including this one. Subscribed ✅ Hello! Nice to meet you :)
As someone who has followed these three (Shane Madej, Ryan Bergara, Steven Lim) since their BuzzFeed days, I personally feel that Steven, CEO of Watcher, almost exclusively, is behind this sh*tty move. 30:15 - “Arrogance,” you say. Steven. Totally Steven.
… But I won’t be delusional and act like Shane and Ryan didn’t partake in this sh*tshow - because they did. I just wanted to give you a little insight as to how many of us feel about Steven specifically. imo, he was once rather sweet, humble. And while I’m happy for his success in life, it has gone straight to his head.
Shane and Ryan admitted they’re not good with finances, so they hired Steven (so many poor decisions). And Steven has morphed into Mr. Bigspender who seems obsessed over keeping up with the Joneses. All of this + that attitude of just expecting that we will follow, just expecting that we will throw our money at them… It’s just… ew.
20:26 Right?? I’ve been saying this on repeat now. Viewers, having the knowledge that content will be available a month later, for free, will more than likely just… wait. Which… makes the new platform nearly useless, does it not? (laugh) Like, it’s just silly.
We will see if they get views on their new platform, or on RUclips, even, after this screwup. Yikes.
P.S. The more I think about Ryan’s sign-off from YT like, “We hope you’ll follow us, but if you’re too poor then peace out” - the angrier I get. The boys’ significant others have doubled down as well, almost coming off as angry at fans for not having the money to hand over. True colors shown indeed… Some seem too hopeful that they will be able to recover from this. I personally feel it will take a while 😬😬😬
I've never seen any Watcher videos, but I think you make some great points about monetization and how to view your audience. Saying that they were going to price it so that "anyone could afford it" is just... not realistic. When free (with ads) was the default, there's going to be people in the audience who won't/can't pay ANY amount monthly - even if it was something ridiculously small like $1/month. Between that, and just springing this change on their audience, it kinda sounds like their expectations weren't too realistic.
I prefer to hear from people who do follow Watcher talking about Watcher (although I did enjoy this video). It's easy for outsiders to laugh at the fans for being parasocial, but that's what happens when people follow personalities. Shane and Ryan were so unique at Buzzfeed, they had such personality and star quality and no one else was like them. But they have changed. Part of it is just growing up; they are men with families and responsibilities and boy oh boy, do they let you know about it every chance they get--which is another reason it's funny that they didn't just lay bare their issues and motives with the Patreon and as much as possible with the bigger fandom. I unsubbed, I resubbed after the apology, but I feel so different now,' it's like having a fight with a trusted friend who says SOME THINGS they can't walk back. It will take a major effort to bring that back.
I'm really glad to hear you saying what they could have done instead. TBH this is their first "scandal" so i think it's that success went to their heads. You were very accommodating and i wish more channels had realized they probably just were too excited. Yes it was all their choice: but also they just seem to have been in a feedback loop of how great they were. Everyone feels close to them artificially. That para socal relationship is a killer
Thinking on it now, all the creators I financially back in one way or another I support specifically because their work feels and has always felt emotionally honest to me. I can understand that the sudden announcement by a channel you thought was very genuine in their communication is suddenly creating a (additional) paywall for their content feels like you’ve had the rug pulled from under you. I’d be very upset too if I had invested time and energy or even money in this specific creator.
I’ve followed Shane and Ryan since buzzfeed. I eagerly followed them to watcher and thoroughly enjoyed the content. The way they dropped this on us and dismissed those who couldn’t afford the streaming services, left a BAD taste in my mouth. Even with the apology, I will never resubscribe. They were truly legends in their own minds.
Never heard of Watcher (or many other non-fiction topics you've talked about recently), so this was enlightening... and also proves that it is better to stay away from social media and big(ger) YT channels!
They were originally going to put the 1st episode of each season on RUclips and the rest on the streaming service, but after the backlash they were scared enough to back track and say they'd just put it up late. They pretty much went back on everything to the point they have no way of making more money.
fully didnt know the diablo video even existed n im so excited to watch it
What breaks my brain is the fact that they basically repeated all the mistakes Buzzfeed made, only watcher didn't have any VC money to throw around. And young adults that like creepy pasta usually aren't VCs so treating them like cash cows won't work.
I started watching Watcher a month or two ago when RUclips recommended me a video about the Circleville Letters, probably because I occasionally go there for pumpkin donuts, and my niece got married there around Christmas. They have good chemistry. But most of their stuff doesn't appeal much to me.
So this is interesting to me because I am subscribed to another show that put ALL their new content behind a paywall. In fact, I’m surprised they didn’t get more backlash.
The show On Cinema at the Cinema used to be funded by Adult Swim, and then Adult Swim kinda cancelled it, I guess. So there was an inciting incident of loss of funding which Watcher doesn’t have (that’s actually similar to Dropout).
Because it’s almost an ARG, we got a whole site with text and video. Tbh, a lot of people have not been happy with the paywall. I’m a subscriber and I’m fine with paying, but it’s true that they haven’t produced as much content as they promised or people expected. However, they do something that almost nobody else does, which is a livestream that is basically its own movie/play, complete with high production values. I’m willing to pay for that.
I didn’t mean to write such a long comment and honestly could talk even more about it lol
Always appreciate your perspective!
Interesting video. Hadn't heard of these people before or even this move, but I agree with the apparent pitfalls they ran into.
20:40 Your point here is sadly how I've responded to Nebula incentives like "oh, catch our videos early on Nebula" - I've also been trying to limit my expenses (especially subscriptions) and don't have Nebula, so I just wait until those videos hit RUclips. I plan to get the service at some point and watch a bunch of stuff (Pat Willems' specials, Jessie's movie, Abigail's play & movie, some Nebula exclusive videos from fave RUclipsrs), but I am...content with what I get on YT and the timeline for it. And yes, Dropout is really tempting, very entertaining clips keep showing up in my recommendations, I think they've really made RUclips work for them, but I am somewhat sated by what I get on YT for now.
I don't believe I've ever watched Watcher (or if I did it was completely in passing/briefly some episode), it definitely strikes me -- taking what you note at face value -- that yeah: they really hadn't thought things through. Hopefully for their fans/subscribers the error can be corrected... though I imagine, again like you say, there is some permanent damage done that may no be readily fixed.
arrogance and lack of forethought is spot on lol
Really wonderful video! I also wonder if they considered the impact of their global audience, which countries have the highest patreon/youtube members and what’s the US/local currency exchange rate? What’s the equivalent of 5.99 in their countries?
Oh they absolutely did not. There were people who wanted to sign up, and couldn't because it's only on dollars which will add fees for international audience. On Top of that, when you pay monthly you basically can never know how much you actually end up paying, because of the exchange rate
The Tonberry with the ace flag (I think, the colors are a bit blurry) is amazing. And I also have that Tachikoma!
I love the way they knew we were gonna ask about the spicy site.😂😂😂 I feel so seen.
@10:00 since dropout had their own service 10M is only part of the viewership (it's probably not that much bigger but it's probably quite a few thousands even if not millions). Even in then,you can pay for the subscription on YT too (either way you have access to their discord). And they do make almost all of it available for free after like 3 or 4 years I think. Generally they were lucky that Sam Reich is LOADED and that some people who are left wing aren't just so on paper, even if they're from a rich background.
...ALso I'm pretty sure Brennan is their mascot at this point
Yep, ther a re a lot of factors that help dropout tv, including their known legacy to have fun personalities, and bring out sucesses like adam ruins everything. And be transparent.
Yeah brennan is definitly their face, which shows they do know how to do actual good marketing, they still drop regular episodes on youtube to remember people dropout exists, bu atre good content to watch.
Brennan was a good choice ok, he is likable, charismatic, funny , attractive and , really hot through that. Ok i have bias. But he definitly is the face of them now, and good move pr wise.
I just realized we have the same hair now... maybe I should start completely copping your style
Doesnt drop out have other channels posting shorts of the stuff on their subscription service? Like im curious how many views on say the " name that bird" clip from game changer actually had when you count everyone that posted it, watched the full version on their subscription service, plus people that did animation on it, etc. As an example.
Also, i did do drop out for a month, if your looking to economize. I watched the shows i wanted like um actually for a month, and ill go back to it at a later and pay for 1 month.
Just FYI, Dropout allows channel members access to the full gambit of dropout content without the headache of adding another account and password without leaving the RUclips platform. This allows the company to give the audience the content whilst still getting paid by those prefer the convenience of RUclips.
I enjoyed the body count videos, but I enjoy your channel doing well even more.
I loved the body count series! I'd been wondered where it had gone. 😢
I agree with everything in this video (good work as always. Always a pleasure to see your face and hear your voice)
Theres a few details i think are always dropped as to why the audience really puffed up the way they did
Like they didnt plug their patreon at all to the point that many followers of the channel, didnt know it existed
There was another point i wanted to touch but i forgot it as i watched the video
I remembered
They actually did act their patreon a long time ago exactly once about a streaming service and were going to completely shaft the patreon in the change over for only podcasts
Fuck why do i keep forgetting my next point
Remembered again
They werent just going to leave youtube and move new content. They were going to entirely nerf their channel
All of their backlog was going to be deleted. They said it vaguely in the video but they told variety that was exactly what they were going to do. Then walked it back within hours and tried to make it seem like a rumor. It was really skummy
It would be really nice to see you on nebula if that’s something you want to do and can feasibly do because there’s such a wealth of trans and nerd culture creators like Jessie who you mentioned and I would love to be able to contribute more to your videos outside of the Patreon model which I’m wary of rn I do support half a dozen people on Patreon but the fees have been increasing and making it harder to support everyone on a disabled income.
0:33 I can relate to that 😅
That's what I'm thinking about doing right now
Is that an alexandrite pendant? It’s stunning, my favorite gem by far followed by peridot. I don’t have anything but nice or relevant to say about them lol
I have a Nebula subscription specifically because I am then helping support a whole bunch of my favorite creators, who I can't afford getting even 1 or 2 usd patreon subscriptions for each.
Another streaming service would have to either also support a bunch of people I would like to support, or have a big and interesting enough catalogue to rival the other entertainment subscription services out there, or it just isn't something I could possibly consider.
Putting my two cents in as somebody who enjoys a few of Watcher’s stuff, the variety of their content is also a huge area of concern. Their biggest things that I can name off the top off my head are Ghost Files, Puppet History, Are You Scared, Too Many Spirits. That’s a ghost hunting show, a history game show, ghost stories, and a drinking game with ghost stories. That does not variety make. Additionally, while on the topic of variety, their slate of hosts is really just down to three guys: Shane, Ryan, and the other guy who’s name I forget. Three dudes, and their personalities are kind of just that: three average straight dudes just hangin’ out. Compare that to something like DropOut where there was a wider cast of characters you had grown to know from their skits and there was personality already kind of established with everyone. (Personally I like that DropOut has not shied away from overt queer rep either which is not something I really see from Watcher either, but I know that’s not really the focus. Just a personal thing.)
I have never heard of these guys and Dropout clips will show up in my shorts on cycles, but the OG for this was Nerdist and Geeks & Sundry trying to make Alpha back in 2016. I would watch Nerdist all the time before that, but the content wasn't there after and a lot of the talent left. It is barely a shell of what it was.
I'm still of the opinion that if they partnered with an existing creator owned streaming service they would've got a much better reaction, especially because it would make signing up a lot more worthwhile since it wouldn't just be their big three shows (ghost files/mystery files/puppet history) which are the only things I think the majority of us were there for in the first place yet aren't enough on their own for us casual viewers especially us broke casual viewers to sign up.
I have no idea who these Watcher people are, just like I had no idea MrBeast existed until my nephew mentioned him. This kinda sounds like how Vtuber agency Nijisanji screwed up massively recently... Boy what a story THAT is.