A Mystery Nonstart - TR6 - Can we solve it
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- Опубликовано: 7 окт 2023
- Another problem that made me scratch my head. A mystery nonstart... Can we solve it?
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#nonstart #TR6 #Triumph 
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Elin, your critical thinking skills and understanding of automotive systems blows my mind. I always appreciate being shown the whole process. It is helping me in my learning!
I'll offer a problem I hit that was very similar, but on a different vehicle, my 1966 Vespa. Single cylinder, 180cc, etc. In my experience, a single cylinder engine is the best tool to learn about problems on, because it reduces the variables. I took it to get it's yearly inspection and it failed - rear running light not working. I brought it home and began the investigation. Bulb - good. Bulb socket - good. Power to the bulb - 6 volts at the meter with the engine running (6 volt scoot, magneto). Ground to the lamp - good. Hooked up wires from a separate 6 volt battery to the light - bulb lights. Tracked power backwards from the light with my meter - 6 volts all the way to the power generating coil. So, power and ground all the way. Bulb doesn't light! It took me three days to figure it out and find the problem. What I hadn't realized was that my meter was way more sensitive to amperage than the light bulb. So. yes, my meter was showing the 6 volts getting to the bulb, which was not lighting, but the amperage was so low, it couldn't light the bulb. So, I was looking at my meter and seeing 6 volts at the bulb, and thinking, "I've got 6 volts, HOW can it not be lighting?!?"" When I inspected the wiring very closely, I found a wire that had KIND OF separated from a soldered ring connector it went through, think of a finger through a donut - the finger isn't fixed to the donut, it's just touching it as it sits in the hole. The wire end was touching JUST enough to let enough power to pass to show 6 volts on the meter, but NOT enough to allow enough amperage to light the bulb. I think that is what's happening with the distributor here - it's not that you don't have a power or ground path, it's just not enough of a path, like, it's the QUALITY of the power or ground path, not whether you have power or ground, or not. Something like that screw that screws in the distributor body and holds the ground path wire from the points/condenser plate - if that screw hole in the distributor body is JUST corroded enough, the quality of the ground may show power on a meter, but not in actual practice. That's my two cents, or, whatever ever it is you Canadians use. :)
- Paul
Back in the PREVIOUS century when I was a mechanic, I used a Sun distributor machine to work on the distributors. This machine is exceptional because it shows many features and the advance mechanism properties. My first real driver car in Munich was an old Mercedes 219 whose fuel pump had leaked into the engine, stopping it. I purchased a new fuel pump and drained the gasoline out of the engine and it started up. Had a terrific driver going to high school.
You identified the problem and fixed it. The body is toast! The gremlins did it!
At the end when the car had no spark at all, it reminded me of mine when after all the work and I forget to put the rotor back on. That solves the problem real quick!
It does sound to be a "grounding" issue, great work
The idea of thicker oil in the dashpots is to give a richer mixture on acceleration. The recommended oil was 3 in 1 brand oil. Some mechanics used 20 SAE for slightly better acceleration. That looked like SAE 50! Under the distributor rotor arm there should be a felt pad which you oil, to lubricate the spindle of the advance retard unit with the cam. Sideways play on this spindle gives a variable contact opening and variation in advance at idle. Was there a flexible ground lead between the distributor body and the contact breaker base plate? There were some distributor caps which did not align with the rotor arm when the points opened. There was also a tendency towards tracking on the rotor to ground and distributor cap between segments. It's always less than satisfactory, when you fix the problem, but can't pinpoint the cause!
Elin, don’t give yourself a hard time. I was curious when I saw the length of the video. In your frustration, combined with a methodical approach, you’ve given anyone with a carburettor fed Triumph 6 cylinder car a thorough guide what to check when running is poor. Very well done!
Great job Elin! You might not have been able to find the root cause of the problem, but you were able to get far enough to find a solution and clean up a number of issues to boot.
It's clear the this distributor did not need a mechanic but needed a Exorcist. Best video yet shows a all giving up is not a option
Good job figuring it out. If it were still together as original, I’d suggest ohming out the plate to the housing. Something is fouled somewhere. My only other comment is, why do you never use fender covers? It’s a good habit to get into. There’s lots of opportunities to mar the finish on all the vehicles you work on and fender covers eliminate about 3/4 of them. Brass buttons on coveralls? Just my 2 cents!
P
I am a new subscriber, commenting from England.
🇬🇧
Top marks to you for showing your diagnostic process, INCLUDING the fails.
When you said the ignition was "100%," I was thinking "condenser!"
Lovely old TR6, reminds me of my old 3a that I renovated, from the ground up.
That had a similar running issue that turned out to be flakes of rust in the tank creating a blockage.
I always would set the points using a dwell meter, this could be done at cranking speed on a non runner. (This may have found your fault, incidentally)
Then adjust the timing for the best running on the road.
I understand that many fit electronic ignition these days, it would be nice to know your opinion on this.
Keep up thegood work!
Alan.
Great video… I learned a lot about TR6s and watched it start to finish. Keep making more like this. You are a wealth of knowledge
Elin, it makes no sense to me either but the bottom line is it's a bad distributor and you fixed it. 90% of engine problems are usually electrical.
This is a good tutorial for me I have a 70 that I inherited, and has not run for 20 years.
Man your approach is admirable. Great work! The TR6 is definitely a dream car for me, I've owned other old british machines but your videos are super helpful
Elin, great video. Thanks for posting. I bestow on you a PhD with honors in deductive reasoning. You are a real gem. Cheers from Texas.
After a lifetime in IT, I feel for you. It’s the ones that you can’t pinpoint the ACTUAL problem that keep you awake at night. Sometimes you just have to say ‘it is what it is’, and move on with your life. Will you ever come across this again? Possibly, but unlikely. Your troubleshooting skills and logic are impeccable, so don’t beat yourself up and just be pleased you fixed his issue. In business a fix is the best possible outcome for your customer. Even if it feels unrewarding for you.
Don't feel too bad, Elin. Most of the time when I fix something on any of my vehicles, I can't figure out what the problem was to begin with.
I've gone through this mess before and found the weakest link was often the rotor. It caused some sort of micro ground outs and usually just died completely. Who knows why? I see you've replaced it many times and are using the best brand but having been stranded a few times and just for insurance I always keep one in my glove box...Good show.
On my wife’s TR6 it was the ign coil. After quite a few times of her being stranded on the side of the road I realized that the rubbing block of the points was getting overheated and would melt in certain area closing up the point gap. The step down resistor was made into the ign coil and it was intermittently allowing full 13.5+ volts to the points. Replacing the coil solved the issue.
The engine would run perfectly for several days and then there would be a backfire and a dead motor. The point gap would be zero ! I finally saw the melted area of the rubbing block.
Love watching your videos. I’ve always loved the TR6
Thanks for posting thsi vid which reflects many a home mechanics experience of a problem that defies logic and makes one question if night follows day. Nice work despite the trouble shooting mystery.
Loved watching, I have a TR6 I am restoring and your videos have helped immensely. I have watched your soft top video and off the back of that tackled my own soft top install, which came out great. I’m wiring the dash now and the brown wire to purple on the light switch was most helpful. Keep up the great work👍😎
It's refreshing to know that there are mechanics out there that are passionate about their work. Elin, it looks like you really love what you do!
What an interesting video Elin 💪😀😀
You have excellent mechanical understanding and very clear explanations. Great vidéo 👍🏾
Ma'am, I couldn't get the car to tun but it has new carpet & a new stereo :)
I replaced points/condenser/cap on my Maverick, threw the other parts away- car wouldn't start. Ended up getting bad (brand new) points- they were grounding out. A couple of "mechanics" didn't know what was up then another mechanic with a power probe got it sorted :) Great job getting this sorted!!
Wow what a ride with trying to figure this out! Glad to see you got it running great! Now I see why you keep yout hair cut short so you don't pull it out!! LOL!
😂
Due to enlarged labour costs these days , (£60 per hour in the U.K.) Yes it’s unusual to find someone willing to spend time Servicing has become a “replacement” exercise for most car parts now as opposed to fault finding and fixing. Young mechanics don’t often develop that desire to “get to the root” of the problem..
Great content, as always. Thanks for the videos. Stay safe out there.
I've had all sorts of problems with an MGB I acquired and my work through followed much of the same journey and just about everything has now been replaced including refurbished SU's; I never knew about the issue of static advance not being spot on when using a strobe so thanks for this valuable lesson which I shall now be applying.
great video, thanks for you hard work.
Love these sort of problems. Drives one crazy but so satisfying when solved but sometimes not knowingly. Know exactly the feeling. Only neg is it doesn't earn any $. So customer has to appreciate the effort snd often times think you're trying to make fast buck. Good job😅
Great video, you solved it.... and I understand how not knowing what caused it can be frustrating, but as the song say " be happy" .
Okay I will try throwing something out there...Regarding the distributor body issues such as cracks or damage can affect the distributor performance. So when cranking the starter the distributor parts are moving slowly: could it be that distributor body integrity problems only show up when the parts are moving faster putting the distributor body under more stress? Also it's easier to create a spark plug arc in the atmosphere compared to when it's inside a cylinder under high pressure. Perhaps one or both of these factors would result in seeing a spark during a test and yet the car "won't even try to start "? And the root cause is that the distributor body is cracked or damaged causing the internals to become misaligned or maybe even a dead short?
I've had the roll pin for the gear break before. It would look normal but as soon as it was cranked, the timing was instantly out but it still spun. Check that out.
I know this is an older video and an old comment, but I had the exact same problem years ago when I was trying to get a Porsche 914 six running. I went through the exact same process you did and at the end of the day when I replaced the distributor, it ran like a top. of course that was at 2 o’clock in the morning right before track day the next morning. Sometimes you can’t explain things and just move on past the problem.O
Nice job getting it running in the end, I’ve had problems with brand new caps, rotor arms, and especially condenser, also a new coil that failed when it got hot a lot of new parts are not good quality as most come from China! Just as a tip for the future when someone says they have changed something don’t take it for granted it’s ok in this case the pump, for one a few £’s or in your case €’s you can get a vacuum gauge that is also a petrol pressure tester/ gauge so you could have connected up at the carb pipe end to find out if petrol and at the correct pressure was getting to the Carb’s saving you time! There’s either a dead short or brake inside the dissy and not the actual casting! ,60 years of experience playing/ working on these , good video and enjoyed , manny thanks for it 👍👍
Exactly 👍
BRG for a start. The infamous doomed color, but you'll sort itout I expect Elin!
That was a good video and I enjoyed watching your journey. I felt like I had gone down that same road several times. It is fixed and I don't know why. I know my Jaguar would fix itself mysteriously.
new sub here. retired and 50 years in the trade never saw that. nice work. suggestion. decades ago when doing rebuilds i took a kitchen pressure cooker. added a couple fittings. air in and oil out. pre lubed the engine via the oil pressure sender tapped hole. it worked.
had a tr4 in highschool. knowing nothing back then i basically drove it to its grave but what a fun car.
It is automotive voodoo! The original distributor body 😮😂 needed another soul. Ha ha ha.
... Try to measure the Ohms on the carb body when installed (or on the bench) between lower and inner shaft. Or the shaft itself has a bent from bottom to top causing the finger to rotate out of perfect round ... (spark inconsistency - e.g. cil one ...)
Great job, you stuck with it and got the car running properly. I personally would take the bad dist. body and bury it in the recycling bin.
I always add the petronics electronic ignition. I replace all the vacuum lines. I add a heat shield with thermal spacers off at 240 Z. I replaced the diaphragms in the Zenith carburetors. Then I static time it. Then I sink the carburetors. Then I put Koni adjustable shocks on the front- the number to setting I put 3/4 valves in the Armstrong shocks in the rear. And I run 205 70 R15.-28 PSI in the front tires 32 psi in the rear. I use a stock clutch, not a performance clutch, I replace the pilot bearing, throw out bearing and install a high sheer throw out bearing Fork pin. I use a new radiator with a shroud. Replace all vacuum hoses and belts, and the heater hoses under the dash on the passenger side. I install a backup hood release on the passenger side. And then I fly it low and fast like a Cessna.
I've had four of them.
I put SU H6S carbs in my 1969 TR6. Had to upgrade to an electric pump as they require more fuel than the Stromberg175s. Just because the part is new doesn't mean it works properly.
That is such a Triumph thing to do. I've worked on several TR6's that ran me in circles. We usually concluded that the points or the distributor were faulty. In most cases we fixed the problem with a pertronix electronic ignition.
Ever since the early '70's I've always upgraded my car with CDI or electronic ignition. It's always made a big difference.
With this TR I'd be tempted to install and electric fuel pump.
@@not-fishing4730 I know a lot of Triumph owners that have electronic ignitions that keep a stock dizzy in the trunk just in case. I'd rather keep a spare Ignitor in the trunk than try to swap and tune a points and condensor dizzy on the side of the road!
Elin, this was a great video! I have some ‘minor’ issues and this complete search for answers was spectacular. I just hope you were paid for your time, because issues like this take time! Your customer can see exactly how much work it was and now knows that ‘everything’ had been inspected and repaired! And it’s running great. The price is worth it! :-)
Now, I would like to meet with you regarding the OrangePeelr. It’s running ‘ OK’, but it’s not running SuperGreat. I can share my concerns, as well as my list. My agenda is to put more work into the Peelr so it becomes an outstanding car. (It’s already really good but can we make it better for next season?)
I’ll email you shortly.
Thanks Dave, I will expect tour email. I am fully booked for the entire winter though. But we can discuss a good time in the spring before the season starts
A hare crack maybe? One of automotive's mysteries! They will always be with us.
Great video Elin! I've owned a '65 MG Midget, a '68 Triumph GT6 and a '72 Triumph GT6. All DIY mechanics. After thinking about your distributer body, I am thinking the only thing that is different is the vacuum unit. And that is something you can not remove? Right? Maybe...
So frustrating when you use your logic and processes and can’t figure it out. Lots of head scratching. Keep up the great work - love learning from you and Chef
Hi Elin, I really enjoyed your video. You obviously are passionate about your work. I worked at a Rover/Triumph dealer in UK for ten years in the seventies. I know your pain. The one thing i didn't see you confirm is when you put back the cam for the points, could you have put it 180 degrees out. A 50/50 chance. Maybee the last time you put it back you got lucky & got it right. Keep up the great work.
I confirmed that by checking the spark at first cylinder at TDC on the power stroke. And I did that every time I changed the cam. And I did it multiple times :) It is just a mystery for me how it worked with another body, but not with the original one
@@RustyBeauties
There must be an explanation but if it wasn’t that, I can’t think of anything else.
The petronics electronic ignition'- it makes up for a sloppy distributor cam. No points, no condenser, no cam, no problem. Smooth consistent Spark. Toyota reliability.
Your frustration with the length of time it took you to do this job is underscored by how much your hair grew since the very beginning of the video. But as usual, another interesting and informative video.
thanks for another great video Elin, noticed the engine temp gauge needle is way over on the "hot" side? regards Geoff from Merimbula Australia
I know how you feel. It even kills me not to know!!
Check that the bearings on shaft they may be shot causing the distributor cam to wobble causing the point gap to vary.
I can’t believe that you have taken so long a time, don’t ever think I’d bring a car to you 😯😢😢
@@paulmuff9883 I don’t think you could anyway, for some weird reason I am booked for months ahead…
😂😂😂
You can be proud, you found the problem and you fix it , there is no more you can do. This part was bad and make problem.
You found the problem with that ground wire. That movement of play flexing on that wire to where the molded in insulation separated the stranded wires. Do a test, flex that wire up and down at a high rate and see if it still maintaines continuity.
The most difficult part of a job like this is being fair to yourself when you are doing the bill
That is why I decided to stop digging for the problem and keep adding to the bill when I could solve the problem with a $30 used distributor body.
The fact that you couldn’t find the fault made it especially fascinating. (Nowadays a mechanic just plugs in a diagnostic and reads the fault on his screen!) 😁😁😁
If the ignition system was breaking down, scope analysis would have confirmed it lesser mechanics need more tools. You are not out of the drivability woods yet. Contaminated fuel storage will come back unless corrected.
Could be the shaft sometimes they warble. Sometimes the rotor doesn't fit on the top of the shaft perfectly. Hey you obviously play the game regularly. You played a great game. And eventually you won.
I replaced starter motor,, that’s it. Then engine cranked but would not fire… never did figure it. It finally did start after some juice drift in carb intakes, and has ever since… has been a year… a mystery…
Obviously, the car is back with the owner; but if you have another triumph laying around I would be interested in using the cursed distributor body with an electronic ignition. I believe that would divide the problem into mechanical vs electrical.
There could be an internal crack in the housing. Something that would totally not be noticeable.
This is quite the mystery. Perhaps the distributor has a very fine crack somewhere and there is a carbon track grounding out to the engine. I have never seen this problem before. We are all life long learners.
Well if the owner doesn’t flush out the gas tank he’s only going to get rust back in the carbs. He’ll be back to put in a new or refurbished tank in.
Possibly excess side play in the distributor shaft due to wear in the shaft bush? The points cam can wiggle sideways a few thou throwing the ignition timing out when running. You have to pull the shaft out and replace the bronze bush in the dist. body. Or better still replace the points with optical breaker-less electronic ignition, which is largely unaffected by distributor shaft wear. Best to rebuild the dist. with a new bush, springs and breaker-less electronic ignition module.
Someone put a spell on it and you ran with it. Congratulations.
I have the same proble for my tr6 , the problem i résolve want a change the braker plate in de distributor now is run perfectly
I had the same leaking fuel pump problem on mine but with the original pump.
Don't feel too bad,Elin....even Superman had his kryptonite to deal with.Not to jump to another subject,but in a recent video you mentioned that you like to use the Red Line MT-90 lubricant in non=overdrive gearboxes but not so in overdrive units.Why do you not use it in these? Thank you for all the great tips that you share
Great deceptive style vid Elin, Sherlock Holmes would appreciate your powers of deduction! Rather you than me trying to get to the bottom of the issue. I think most would have given up! Had a similar issue with a new cam sensor which had an intermittent fault took me 18 months of frustration before I discovered the issue.
Back to the dizzy my money was on the condenser. Have you an electronic one you could borrow and fit to eliminate the points and condenser? I wonder if you shimmed it to take out all the end float if it would resolve the issue? Failing that fully strip to have a look at the drive shaft to see if it's in one piece could it have fractured in a strange way to allow occasional slippage? Or as already said are the bob weights catching the case given the excessive end float or the weights/mechanisms binding? Would be nice for your sanity to find the true cause. Look forward to more investigation Sherlock if you feel up to it!
Use a paper clip in the high tension port on the coil to low tension connection on coil to check ignition timing very simple only fires once
0:18 after all your effort ill hazard a guess that there was too much wear in the sintered bearing of the distributor bore with flaying centrifugal weights compounding the issue of an erratic spinning of the camshaft
Blimey Elin.. What a pain in the rear.. But well done for a 'REPAIR' which you should give yourself a very large pat on the back (6 pack of Stella 😂).. I can't begin to guess the reason for that dizzies body being the cause of the problem, but I was in the garage trade when it got to be cheaper to 'replace' a part than clock up labour charges to repair the original. Someone in the comments might know the answer here, but I'm at a complete loss ! 🎃 Greatly entertaining video Elin..
i had this problem on an old mini years ago did the same things as you did,,,after going over the internals of the distributor i noticed one had a fine coating stain of molybymn the other didnt it was enough to short out the low trnsion of the ignition when the shaft turned in the engine,,,,moses mechanic,,,
Hi from Oz Elin,
Ive had a thought about the distributor, did you measure the distance from the face where the cap fits to the contact on the rotor. I was wondering if the shaft when spinning rises enough not to make a close enough contact with the ht lead contacts, or indeed is too low.
I like the haircut. 😉
I can only think that the body of distributor and power wire is making contact to ground and creating an earthing problem or the other problem could be the shaft is bent slightly so when turning fast altering the spark cap.
Ah this is a great opportunity for collaboration with Tony DeFeo at Uncle Tony's Garage. He does a live show every Sunday night (starts in a few hours) so perhaps I can get his attention and see what ideas he might have.
Yeah, I watch him sometimes. His technical videos are very educational. But sometimes he goes for a rant on not so technical topics and that is where he loses me :)
Seems like the distributor housing is not getting a ground on the engine block.
The bottom line is that with your skills you fixed it . Has to be be something with the shaft or some grounding issue thanks for the vid another satisfied customer that’s all that matters.
Nice Video! Next time you put a car up on four stands could you post the segment, it would be helpful to me and others I think.
Anna to the rescue!
Did you check the alignment of the drive coupler on the distributor with the rotor arm alignment?
I was going to say check to see a mouse hasn't put a bun in the air filter pipe. They often do that in old cars.
Hi forgot when using paper clip for timing need to turn ignition on hope this makes sense
have obsessed about this thru the whole episode. After all the running and testing, did you check the engine oil again? It sems that you didn't find the source of the gasoline in the oil for sure but concluded that it was because of the crud in the fuel bowls. Yes, there was almost a beach-full of sand on the bottom of the bowls, but I don't see how that would cause the carbs to over fill and drain into the crank case. Maybe I missed something?
Yes, I checked the oil multiple times. The oil didn’t get diluted through the carbs, but through the fuel pump. That is he only place where the oil and the fuel come close to eachother.
Once I went crazy like this on a distributor with all new replaced parts. After trial and error I narrowed it down to the points (new repro bought from ebay) that were not passing any current. The weirdest ever. I bought another set, original and more expensive, and everything worked. Couldn't it be that certain parts, like in this case the distributor body, are bad repro of poor grade metal that doesn't pass enough current?
Gasoline in oil. I had that happen through the carbs
That’s one way to flush and de-sludge your engine ! 😊
Great job on diagnosing the problem, doing it systematically. I'm no mechanic by any means, so this may sound stupid, but is there a possibility chance of a hairline crack you can't see?
Yes I think you're onto something: causing a problem once the engine is turning at higher than cranking speed and the spark is experiencing cylinder pressure?
That was a real slog to get to the finish. You are persistent which is good. The only thing that I can think of would be something with the vacuum advance is not right with the old distributor. You already checked for shaft wear and swapped out all the internal parts which did not help. The only think that you didn't change would be the vacuum canister.
Is it possible the old distributor body was taller - ie the distributor cap was sitting higher relative to the rotor arm? If you could measure the length of the clips holding the cap on for the original and replacement body that would tell you if their was a height difference. Moss show about 7 different distributors for the TR6.
In my opinion, the TR6 is the last of the classic British roadsters.
Curious...Lucas ( many times has the name Joseph Lucas been taken in vain on a suddenly darkened road ) electricals?
Elin, my TR6 is popping out of the rear carb when cold (and also stutters a lot if you try to take it out cold). Once up to normal temp it goes away. The car has the vac retard disconnected and it runs well once it's at normal temps. Any ideas where to start diagnosing?
Elin. I wonder how many hours you spent on this? My PI TR6 ran like a pig for years, I finally found out that it had a CR 'E' low emissions engine which has a totally different timing for the fuel injection pump. All sorted in about 30 minutes in the end
Elin, you need a mega ohmmeter !
Regards,
Sandy 🔧🏴