Why Quakers Don't Take Communion
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 14 май 2014
- Why don't Quakers take communion? Why don't they baptize? Early Quakers believed that the church was full of empty forms, and they sought the real substance of being filled by the Holy Spirit. Quaker professor Michael Birkel of Earlham College explains.
Subscribe to QuakerSpeak so you never miss a video!
www.QuakerSpeak.com/subscribe
Filmed and edited by Jon Watts: jonwatts.com
Music from this episode: jonwattsmusic.com
Discussion Questions:
quakerspeak.com/michael-birkel...
Explore the Quaker Way:
www.fgcquaker.org/explore
Read Friends Journal to see how other Friends describe the substance of Quaker spirituality
www.FriendsJournal.org
Quaker Voluntary Service has opportunities for young women and men interested in social and personal transformation through service work and living in Quaker community.
quakervoluntaryservice.com
Worship with Friends! Find Quakers near you on QuakerFinder and Friends Journal's meeting listings
www.fgcquaker.org/connect/quak...
www.friendsjournal.org/meeting...
Transcript
There's a phrase that goes through both the gospel of Luke and its sequel, the Book of the Acts, and that phrase is, "being filled with the Spirit." "Filled with the Holy Spirit."
There are moments in stories in that book where they say, "and so-and-so, being filled with the Spirit, goes off and does something wonderful." And Early Quakers I think felt that they themselves were filled with that same Spirit. So it was really that experience. Some of it was structure and so forth -- or lack thereof -- but I think the fundamental thing was that experience of being filled and led by the Holy Spirit.
Early Quakers yearned for a revival of primitive Christianity because -- in their experience -- the life of the established church around them was one of form without substance. You could have a ritual, you could have a program, you could have a structure, but it could be there with no electricity running through the wires.
So imagine going to a church service. Ok, you're supposed to say some prayers whether those prayers speak what you're feeling at that moment or not. You're supposed to recite a creed that contains someone else's theological reflections that you may or may not agree with. You're supposed to sing some hymns. You know, there's the old joke, "why aren't Quaker good at singing hymns?" "Because they're always looking ahead to see whether or not they agree with the words." Well that's where that comes from.
You know, you can force someone in a sense -- in that circumstance -- to sing something that is dishonest for them. And then you listen to a sermon and a good puritan sermon has been crafted for days by the preacher who has given a lot of thought to it. But if it's all up in your head but not in your heart -- if it's all in your book but it's not led by an immediate sense of Divine presence, it's form without substance.
The same thing for the sacraments -- there was a lot of debate going on about communion and about baptism -- what they ought to look like, how such rituals should be performed, what the theological and spiritual meaning of these experiences ought to be. If communion meant union with God, you can have the formal elements of communion but no real unity, no sense of union with God happening.
And so form without substance was their experience of the organized churches and they said, "we're going to get together and let the Spirit guide us, and that may lead us in radical directions." Like, even women ministering, which was shocking. Perhaps one of the most shocking parts of their message to those around them.
More:
quakerspeak.com/michael-birkel...
"Do this in memory of me, everytime you eat and drink" (Everytime, anywhere you eat and drink).
I believe the "This do" relates to giving thanks not the eating and drinking. "...In EVERY THING give thanks for this is will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you."
I always thought quakers were very conservative. I didn't realize how charismatic they are.
Yeah the Quakers were basically the opposite of the Puritans.
I think Quakers tend to reflect the communities they live in to various extents. In fact, the whole point of Quakerism is that its an individual practice with no Church or Clergy, so in truth the question "What do Quakers believe?" isn't really possible to answer. The answer is, "depends on the Quaker".
@@macprice777Only an Attender at meetings but I think Quakers could not have existed without Puritans. In an age before any Enlightenment Philosophy existed they opened the door to question the authorities and whether Anglicanism had gone far enough. Quakers just asked the same questions of the Puritan churches and asked whether any authority other than God was required.
Thank you, I love this, it really resonates with me. I come from a Quaker family who was very active but my mother was shunned in 1961 when she divorced, and our participation closed off after that. I couldn't believe it when I found out 5 years ago. My Grandmother tried to make up for it. She was from the older generation who said "thee" and "thou" in their community. But their beliefs definitely filtered down to us
I am so sorry that happened to you and your mother
Thank you! me too. shocked actually
Sounds like the Quakers are all about rules which the guy claims they aren’t.
I love what i am hearing and reading about the Quakers. I come from a Southern Baptist Background. I dont like the entainment churches and have quit going. I seek real Truth from the scriptures and have not at the present found a Fellowship worth attending. But i do feel the God of Heaven is directing me to look into the Quakers society, i agree with alot of your teachings. I will continue to listen and learn from your people. Thank you
thank you for this series, many of us live in areas where we are the " the only quaker in the village" lol
+jeff duvall I am not really a Quaker, but like the thinking. I feel I'm the only one in this town who thinks this way. Where can i find kindred spirits? Grantville, Ga. 30220.
+David B Hege Good list of resources for finding a Quaker Meeting near you at www.quakerinfo.org/quakerism/findingfriends
jeff duvall : what a bunch of losers
We're exploring quakerism Because it really speaks to us, and we want to go to a meeting. However, the closest meeting to us is about 40 minutes away(we live in western NC), with gas prices these days, it's hard to commit to a weekly meeting, in addition to commuting to work for most of the week on top of that lol. It's rough.
@@bn09185 you may want to see if there’s a virtual meeting you’d want to join
Primitive Christianity is Eastern Orthodoxy, as practised in places like Mount Athos, and parishes throughout the world.
The Quakers of the 17th century never had this possibility and did the best they could
A very interesting point of view. Thanks for sharing!
Michael Birkel was my favorite professor while I was attending Earlham College. I learned so much from him about things that I thought I already knew.
I still don't understand why Quakers don't take Communion.
Because we don't have rituals; they can become empty forms. Some Quakers are more programmed and others are completely unprogrammed, but that's one thing we mostly agree on.
E Grace Let me see if I understand. If an individual feels led to take communion they can. Quakers don't forbid it. However the pastor will never lead a congregation in it, nor is there a liturgy or "right way" to do it.
Steven Massey No, it is not part of our religious practice at all.
+Plain E Quakers are not forbidden to take communion. Like you say, it isn't offered in the Quaker context. But Steven was also right, for example several people in my Meeting go to other churches occasionally and some take communion (or participate in other types of worship with various groups), when they feel led to do so. Some meditate, some go on pilgrimages. These things aren't offered within the Quaker Tradition but there is nothing to stop people from doing them on their own. The definition of "empty forms" is to do something just because it is tradition, without it touching or challenging your spirit. But when you choose to go and take communion this is an active choice and that means it is no longer empty. To have it proscribed and to do it by rote tradition without reflection, that is empty and Quakers don't do it. But it isn't dogma that you can't do it if you are led to.
Memmi -- I think that is what I said. Although, I can not imagine another church being okay with someone of another faith coming to them and taking communion. I was raised Roman Catholic, and as I am no longer a Catholic, I would not be able to take communion in a Catholic church.
Many members of my Meeting are hypenates (Buddhist-Quaker, etc.), and they get much from that. I, personally, don't understand it, but I'm sort of simple. I figure that, if I was convinced that I am a Friend, then that is what I am. But that's me.
While meditation is not part of our in-Meeting practice, I would say it was rather encouraged in the early days. Maybe not using that word, but certainly taking time in your day to be still and to center.
I still love taking communion I love my baptism, I guess its just my own individual relationship. I don't think you need a preacher or priest to do either maybe just a like minded friend.
But how can the Spirit lead anywhere but into obedience to the word of God in scripture? We are told to have communion. We are told to wash one another’s feet.
Essentially "You can have wires without electricity. Therefore, we don't have wires." ...Then you probably don't have electricity either.
Tell that to Nikola Tesla.
I love your thought process and sense of humor!
Quakers don't say you can't have any rituals (or "wires"), but we try to avoid having meaningless ones ( no "electricity"). Perhaps wires were not the best analogy. Maybe batteries would be better? A dead battery is like an empty ritual, but a live battery has energy we can use whenever we tap into it. We try to avoid empty ritual, but if a ritual helps you connect with God, it's not forbidden. We do have rituals -- weddings and memorials spring to mind. (At the beginning of my wedding, a Friend said, "Quakers are proud of not having rituals, of which this is one." 🙃) Many Friends have grace before meals, or a private time for study and prayer every day. I know one Friend who does yoga, Tai Chi, and Qigong, which she infuses with prayer and meditation. She begins each morning this way. So yes, we have rituals, but unprogrammed Quakers try to keep our group activities as simple and free of ritual as we can.
That hymn joke is also true for Unitarians, lol.
I was curious because I learned that Johns Hopkins was a Quaker.
He was a Quaker?
@@wilburmcbride8096 Yes....he was wealthy.....and came from a wealthy family of slave owners. When Quakers began to 'see the light' and collectively realized that slave ownership violated their testimony of 'equality'...he freed his slaves. And, then he became wealthy, again. It is important to remember [and, it is well documented, historically], that early colonial Quakers, valued extreme honesty, in their business dealings....and refused to cheat...or 'bilk'.... their business customers. Everyone would prefer to do business with someone they trust,....and this has been documented to be the primary reason so many early Quakers became wealthy. [And companies....like Quaker Oats, Quaker State motor oil, and Penns Oil....were not Quakers, at all....but took their names, based on Quakerism....to promote own their image of integrity.]
Fair enough but I like to take communion as it says in the Bible, interesting example of the Puritan crafting a sermon for days but being of form not substance at the end of the day, I see a lot of that today especially in those who focus on expository preaching, it seems almost academic not Christian focused or not focused on bringing us to Christ but rather showing the preachers ability to create sermons to be appreciated by a congregation.
Amen! Expository preaching really turned me on at first but as time went on I realized it was shrinking my heart.
@@thomasjnemeth I like the Quaker ways and George Fox story, I feel drawn to community e.g I'm not sure as a Christian I can live in secular society, it drains me, I'm happiest with believers where I feel most at ease, the Anabaptist communities and those like Bruderhof would be my ideal. I'm open to attending a Quaker meeting, I grew up my family being Presbyterian and now attend a local Episcopal Church in Scotland, I'm open and non tribal, I always reference what I hear for scriptural accuracy.
my Grandmother went to Earlham college, she even left money to the school. I am not sure why she didn't go to Quaker meetings when she moved from Richmond In to Calif, but she ended up Presbyterian
But why do you think the form and substance can't exist together? Why do you think you can't go to a programmed service and believe with your heart in all the hymns, prayers and sacraments?
A creed" is merely a statement of what you believe, we ALL believe something. And the value of communion depends on the individual, same for hymms. I don't see how you can just write everything off because not all forms are "perfect".
So so true..thank you...in my previous church I just wanted to sit with God, but parishioners wanted me to join in. It didn’t feel right for me so I left.
You can sit with God any time, churches are for fellowship, for edifying one another.
The difference is between authentic and fragmented experience.
Some Quakers do take a formal, communal, physical communion. It's not either/or.
Then WHY meet at al?
Can I not sit at home and wait for the Spirit to move through me?
Matthew 18:20
“For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”
King James Version (KJV)
Yes, you can do that, and Quakers would recommend that you do. But worshipping together feels different. It's like the difference between listening to your playlist alone at home and listening to live music at a concert.
What is this background music called? I love it! And the message too haha
All of our music is composed by the director of the project, Jon Watts. You can find this particular piece (“The Burden of Vision”) at jonwattsmusic.com/album/music-from-quakerspeak-vol-1
beautiful explanation...thank you .....
Didn't Jesus ask us to do that in remembrance of Him?
Yup. More than ask, it’s a commandment. “Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you will have no life within you.”
Jesus asked us to remember him when we eat and drink, but he did not order a ritualisation of the act.
@@Taipan108 Matthew 26:26-30 (Jesus institutes the Lord's Supper), and 1 Corinthians 11:23-26 (Paul confirming that this was instituted and to be followed) Hope this sheds some light on the biblical truth of the matter =)
@@ivegotanewhome858 At face value, that passage in 1 Corinthians could very well be interpreted that way. However, from another point of view, Paul is not only speaking about bread and wine in a literal sense, but as well as in a spiritual sense. Paul is saying that Christ is indeed our daily bread both literally and figuratively. He warns that if a person consumes without discernment (i.e. eating greedily, ungratefully and forgetful of Christ) then that person only consumes to his own detriment. He dishonours his daily bread.
@@Taipan108 I respect your response. I do however think it's important to read passages in the correct context. Paul was only confirming what Jesus had done previously at the Last Supper. And reading that passage in its plain form (historical narrative) means that Jesus was literally telling us to "do this" (wine and bread) in remembrance of him. I do agree there is a spiritual aspect as you mentioned, but I think church tradition has taken it literally because that was how Jesus instructed it to do so.
So you're saying if you can't do it right, don't do it at all. But I would hate to blame someone for trying.
there is absolutely some good here, but also- yes, we were given certain customs by Christ. in the least, Christians can be obedient for these small things, right?
in my church, we have Communion offered on the table for those who are led to partake at any time. this helps to address a heart-rightness, so to speak, for families, couples, individuals to be more aware of before partaking.
we also will hold a seder service, and the teaching and depth that may be experienced is awesome!
i do not think Quakers are lost for this, but it is unfortunate.
This is very interesting. What type of church is it that holds seder services and offers Communion on the table?
What denomination is it?
As beautiful as the idea of waiting prayer can be, I don't find this good justification for abandoning rites that the early church associated with Jesus' ordinance, and claiming to be disciples of Jesus. Jesus participated in rituals, and instituted his own.
This basically sounds like throwing the baby out with the bath water. Gathering round the simple blessed elements of bread and wine (or something like bread and wine/juice), in accordance with the Lord's command, is an excellent opportunity to specially refocus on the sacrifice of Christ and dine spiritually on the body and blood of the crucified Christ.
The Quaker book of Christian Experience (1962) carries this great quote (p.39), from A. Barratt Brown (1887-1947):
“It is a bold and colossal claim that we put forward - that the whole of life is sacramental, that there are innumerable “means of grace” by which life is revealed and communicated - through nature and through human fellowship and through a thousand things that may become, “the outward and visible sign” of an “inward and spiritual grace.”
In this quote, Barratt Brown does something wonderful for me. He takes the theological terms of sacraments as rites such as “means of grace”, “the outward and visible sign”, “inward and spiritual grace” out of the prison of theological discourse and releases them into the cosmos of God’s creation. Thus, the “bold and colossal claim that we put forward - that the whole of life is sacramental.”
There is further evidence of this movement from theology (sacramental rite) - to creation (life as sacramental) - in a beautiful passage from “Essays and Addresses” by John Wilhelm Rowntree(1868-1905), quoted in Christian Experience, p 40:
“To the soul that feeds upon the bread of life, the outward conventions of religion are no longer needful. Hid with Christ in God, there is for him but small place for outward rites, for all experience is a holy baptism, a perpetual supper with the Lord and all life is a sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God. This hidden life, this hidden vision, this immediate and intimate union between the soul and God, this, as revealed in Jesus Christ, is the basis of the Quaker Faith.
“We do not make use of the outward rites of Baptism and the Lord’s Supper but we do lay stress on the inward experiences they symbolise. Our testimony is to the reality of this experience without the external act”
As an example of the inward experience, without the outward act, D. Elton Trueblood (1968) is quoted in the two revised draft copies of Christian Experience as describing baptism by fire as, “one loving heart setting another on fire”.
-from 'Quaker Soirituality and the Sacraments' by Irene nî Mháille
quakers-in-ireland.ie/2011/05/05/quaker-spirituality-and-the-sacraments/
So beatiful video....
Very deep belief without the hollow rituals and structure.
Would you tell Jesus that the Eucharist he instituted is 'hollow'?
Much of what Prof. Birkel says has merit, but the emptiness of ‘form without substance’ he criticizes and fears in other denominations can also exist in a Quaker meeting should a Quaker gap out or let his mind wander. What I don’t understand is why Quakers would disregard Jesus' explicit command to ‘do this in memory of me.’ One can argue about the minutia of the ritual, but the ritual of the Eucharist was instituted by Christ himself, and has been a hallmark of the Church since the very beginning.
Actually, you are quite wrong about the chronology of first century events in Palestine. Paul's earliest letters, for example, were written within 10 years of the resurrection. There has been a veritable revolution in scholarship on the subject in the last 30 years, including the realization that the documents we have from that time are much, much closer to the events they describe than previously thought. If you want a fast 'RUclips' video overview - just look up "The Resurrection Argument That Changed a Generation of Scholars - Gary Habermas at UCSB."
There are about 80 references to Christ and the resurrection outside the gospels, most notably among Roman historians. If you think the Bible is the only documentary evidence for Jesus or the resurrection, you are ever more out of touch than I thought. Good luck finding your way! Goodbye!
I'm glad you're listening to your parents and reading 'scholarly commentaries' and are apparently in a church., I've studied Church history, theology and Christology at accredited post-secondary institutions for many years - and have probably read more than 100 scholarly commentaries... In short, I've been going beyond merely reading commentaries to formal study, including exegesis, and have been at it for many years. Reading scholarly commentaries is fine, but doesn't go nearly far enough ... but why don't take a degree and really get into it?
The issue of when the letters of Paul and the the gospels were written is a matter of history, not faith. I'm simply saying that, regardless of whether you'r an atheist of theist, you don't know the history of the New Testament. Goodbye.
As for Quakers, we try to see holiness in our everyday lives. This is why, traditionally, Quakers do not observe holy days, because EVERY day should be treated as holy. Along that same idea, EVERY meal should be treated as a remembrance of the Last Supper.
You should make video of /with David Bills in Greensboro, NC. There are many "weighty Friends" in New Garden Friends Meeting.
Thanks Gary! I'll check it out!!
I am living in Barbados ,I was brought up in Quakers Road. This road got its name from the early Quakers living here between 1660 and 1703. There are still Quaker buildings and an old burial ground that has been preserved by Barbados Heritage Trust. It would be interesting to look at the history of the early Quakers that lived here.I agree with most of your teachings. But would like to know more..
wow this is a big deal thanks for the warning that is huge
I agree on the women ministering, the Bible is pretty clear on that subject. Unfortunately people take those passages and twist them to fit their own narrative instead of taking it for what it plainly says.
It plainly says women can not be pastors
💚💚💚
I loved the part where he clearly explained why Quakers don't take communion. Here's some good advice, if someone can't clearly show you in Scripture how they came to a theological belief or conviction, than they are wrong. The Lord Jesus has given two means by which He communicates with His church, Baptism and Communion. To neglect either one of these is heretical and sinful.
Humans can do what they want and what they like.....
what would be the most straightforward answer to why they dont believe in communion??
We do believe in Communion, we just do not need the outward forms to experience communion with God.
Its good i think that people think about why they do what they do. The danger of 'religion' is it can give people an 'opt out' from thinking or soul searching. Blind obedience and truths sculpted from holy texts by manipulators can create paths that lead to oblivion. Legalism gives the lawyers power, Luke 11.52
So Jesus came to fulfil Gods law, which is why Christians dont feel oblidged to be circumcised or obey alot of jewish law. The conclusions of the apostles was selfless Love denonstrated by Christ was the fulfilment of the law. Did Jesus create new laws? With the last supper he said, do this in remembrance.... thats the purpose. Dont forget, and also while u r at it why not focus on the symbolism of drinking blood and eating human flesh. Thats not normal human behaviour on the face of it. There is a truth behind it to fathom. But if a person commands u to take communion, is this a legalism being imposed on u? I think Christians should be wary of religious structures that can impede the spontaneous movement of the spirit of God. It doesnt mean u cant have sacrements, just dont let them crowd out the sacred one!!
🕊️❤️👍
What if you don’t have it in your heart and head ?
“ study to show thyself approved “
when I go to other churches and they are seving communion I never really want to but I do it because everyone else is doing it. Some times I want to but if I don't I do it because everyone else is
+Judi Treble same as me, but i think that God is in every thing and is everywhere! I like to go to Church to think and reflect and to worship. I don't need the structure though and i don't think i need the sacrements. I love singing a good hym though.
+Jimmyc Burfield I agree
The point of communion is to “ do it as often as you eat and drink proclaiming the death of Christ until He comes”1 Cor. 11:26
And to be with and partake with the Body of Christ, until we do TOGETHER as the Bride of Christ, at the Wedding Feast WITH Him!
But that does not mean you cannot take it alone and commune solely with him whenever you want to. But I believe you should definitely not refrain simply because others are all doing it! That is what we are supposed to do.
...it’s still very intimate, and personal even when we’re all together. Christ is there and being remembered. 🙏✨🕊
All y’all need to read your Bible.
....again, please.
The beliefs here are reactionary to someone else's failure at understanding as well as the gutting of the life and of the spirit out of the sacrament of communion. Communion is for those who believe that the word (the voice) of God is carried on through them. They live the life that Jesus lived, in that, he heard God speak and did what that voice told him to do. What is sin? Is it not disobeying the voice of God, and, in particular, to you? So since "sin" could be anything to many doctrines, then, "sin" loses clarity as to what it is through the doctrines, particularly, of those who do not believe that the voice of God moves through believers. From that doctrine, the sacrament of communion loses clarity as well. But if a person sees through the scriptures that Jesus told them to do communion in remembrance of him and in remembrance that his body and blood was shed for him being the voice of God to those around him, then it makes sense that those who take communion also are the voice of God to those around them, if that is what they allow God to do through them, which is why the scriptures also state that some take of communion unworthily. That "unworthily" seems to be what Quakers eventually began to see as the norm in their congregations ... the formality of the sacrament of communion without the understanding of the true meaning of it caused folks to dislike the sacrament for the hypocrisy of those who unworthily wen through the motions of it without the heart of it. It's just sad that the Quakers, at some point, lost focus of what communion meant.
The are correct to dump the Old Testament Jewish practice of Water Baptism.
while I agree with the waiting on the Lord for ministry and gifts of the Spirit according to the anointing that teaches all things and the leading of the Spirit in Jesus name. This waiting and leading can be religious also if men do not walk in this life every day in Christ. For example. Paul and peter and other ministers in the spirit would often teach the word in the marketplace and schools and on the streets and as they did so they were also to be led by God and this speaking and teaching can be regular and vibrant. If they are able to minister and answer the who ask them of the reason of the hope that is in them at any time, then in meetings this can be also. Some times others may simply wait in silence for the sake of a form when all along they may be filled with the spirit and knowledge and revelation of the word and called as , not only prophets or prophesy, but also as teachers and pastors and evangelist and apostles. and every man can speak and share as they are given the gift 1 Peter 4;10,11.
I have noticed that when visiting some of these meetings that there seems to be a form at times. if for example many were stirred to share testimonies and encourage and teach and sing etc, some may feel that their silence was inturupted and that all should keep quiet. But I have found that as I have been led by the Lord to go into many various kinds of meetings in places , that as I wait on the Lord often he will open my mouth and give utterance and words to the gathering. He has shown me that as long as they open the scriptures and allow others to share and minister in Christ , he can speak to them of whatever he send me there for. This is marvellous in my eyes. I have been sent to some gatherings of many religious forms and filled with mans traditions etc, and yet as they open the word and allow to share it doesn't matter what section of scripture they may , (in their form open) The Lord can use it to speak any message he sends me to share.
so in the waiting and silence, of which is good and right, we are coming together to let the peace of God first rule in our hearts, to which we are called in one body, through this peace ruling, we examine our hearts that we come not together unto judgement or with sin and bitterness in our hearts and that in truth we are in the peace of God and with God. The we are to let the word of Christ dwell in us richly teaching and admonishing one another... Col 3:15,16.
Not all are prophets, many are teachers and are in other giftings
while prophecy is immediate and with something revealed, a teacher is not so immediate, although he had to have learned all things from the anointing ( 1 john 2:27)
consider what i say and the Lord will give understanding in all things.
pass this on to all who gather and wait on the Lord.
Whenever I hear any kind of protestant speak it always boils down to truth being relative, deciding for yourself whether you 'agree' with the words of creeds etc or not is precisely the problem
I will pour out my spirit on sons and daughters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Very interesting. I'm concerned though towards the end.."let the spirit lead us". Have to be sure what spirit it is. I believe it's said Satan can appear as light. Can't be too quick to modernize.
Thank you for ending this on the feminist entree 😎
Worldwide there are 400,000 Quakers. That''s it. Hello?
But, aren't you neglecting what Jesus said? If you are not born again, you wont see the Kingdom of God. If we are to believe the Bible and the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is only in us after baptism, just like Jesus gave example of. You may be hearing from spirit but unless you have been baptised which gives you the Holy Spirit or someone with the Holy Spirit puts their hand on you so that the Holy Spirit travels through and into you, then it's not the Holy Spirit that you have. It may very well be a Spirit bringing light but there is a deceiver with a light too. How do you know which spirit light you are listening to? The first Quakers possibly were filled with the Holy Spirit but if they haven't baptised anyone or put their hand on a person, then I doubt that it's the Holy Spirit you are listening to? Why not? Because Jesus and the disciples were specific in the Bible with what to do. At communion, Jesus said, 'Do this in remembrance of me.' I'm not judging, sorry if I sound that way, just asking...if you're being selective over what sentences of Jesus's that you observe, if you're not adhering to everything he said, how do you know you are hearing from his Holy Spirit and not being deceived? Jesus himself was baptised as example. Thankyou for your time.
Isaiah 45:22KJV
ACTS 4:11-12KJV
the bible say, test the spirit to see if they are of God, God's spirit will never contradict God's word, so obviously the spirit they were following was an impostor.
I get that there should be an internal transformation, but it doesn't negate the ritual. I get that they may not want to communicate that theyre negating the ritual, but you are if you don’t practice it. Btw, primitive Christianity partook of the Eucharist at every meeting.
can i become a quaker ? amish and mennonites wont take me ? lol. can i have a vehicle but mostly animal power ?
It would have helped to state the Quaker position (if there is one) on the sacraments in a simple summary or introduction. I am increasingly getting the impression that Quakers are attracted to contrarian positions almost as if for the sake of it, so as to say what they are not for, not what they are for or what they believe.
Actually, I would agree that some of us are contrarians, but most of us are seeking to live in the Spirit and follow the Light that is given to us. I see that more as a guide to doing rather than injunctions not to do something. For example, to avoid war and violence, we try to promote justice, compassion, and understanding.
Oh, and BTW, I agree that this Quakerspeak video could have been more focused and clear. However, on the whole I am immensely pleased with this series of videos.
I fill really enriched by finding facts on quakers and listening to there intelligence and logic. I can identify my own self with ..i literary didnt ,know about quakers im in Australia....
I fill refreashed there is ppl out there whom fill as i do .that god wants us to know truths and live a moral life ..not to suport religions of faith that has no real purpose for ppl but for taking like Catholics..i shame them through out history they been corrupt...i was almost made catholic on 3 occasions thank godness god must of intervened ...cause i grown up finding out a terrible lot on Catholics in school as teacher and 8n rhe day of Hitler whom as god as took Hitler side ...im a shamed of and lost my trust..
If Jesus installed new things like divorce only for adultery, like human sacrifice for sins, then he violated his own Torah which very clearly demands not to be added to or taken away from.
Early Christianity looked nothing like this, sorry dear brothers and sisters. Early Christianity (Orthodox Christianity) , begenning with what Christ taught the Apostles, had a purpose. Early Divine Liturgy, had prayers, Gospel readings, sermons, icons, candles. Your faith made you new, and made you grow through the sacraments.
That is the truth! I imagine that the Holy Apostles and the Church Fathers would probably be very confused (and perhaps offended by) a Quaker worship service. My family went to a Friends Church when I was young. I didn't like it very much; I called it the "Church of Nothing"... I feel so much more at home in Orthodox Church (most of my family converted).
Uhh. we don't KNOW that.
"Orthodoxy" versus "Heresy" in Ancient Christianity
ruclips.net/video/W80CbmfRt9s/видео.html
What is the Difference Between Theology and Religious Studies?
ruclips.net/video/O6_ARMEhk5A/видео.html
The Gospel talks about the Incarnation of God. Form combined WITH substance. So it matters. Jesus gave us signs to help us growing in faith and love. It's called the Sacraments. We need them, for through them and with them, we experience God's inner presence and strenght into our lives.
The Church makes the fruits of the Redemption happen by the power of the Holy Spirit WITH the Sacraments, through ordained ministry, since the very beginning of the Church. It's what is told in the New Testament !
The "substance" is in the spiritual act of taking communion. This man has got it backwards. Jesus asked us to do it in his memory. This man is a little confused.
"a little" is a pretty moderate estimation :) he has no understanding of Christian theology whatsoever
@@rajvo1 dude, the whole thing is about refusing to be bound by man made "theologies".
Much of what this guy says I almost me. It is very dangerous to liberalize because as he says at the end 'women ministering' but is he referring to woman pastors? And elders? When you liberalize you will eventually dismiss the bible or pick out what you want and explain away the other things. Watch out!
Jesus gave the command, soo your going against Christ. Communion, baptism, and gathering together. Hmmm not for me. Gotta have some Jesus
I recognise that Quaker intentions may be good, but unfortunately their arguments against "form" are circular. By the same argument, nobody can really know whether Quaker "meetings" contain sincere worship. Who know what is going on in anybody's head or heart. Instead, Christ and the Church have given us tangible ways in which to worship. This is done precisely because human beings are physical beings, not only spiritual. The physical and spiritual make up of humans are essential to our being. Not only ours, but also Christ's as he became man by the Incarnation. And so Quaker theology is another manifestation of Gnosticism, which detests physical elements. To be fair Quakers stand firmly in the Protestant tradition, taking radical Protestantism to its logical conclusion. I think that the disregard of the Scriptures in this respect and the disregard of the physical world as a means of mediating grace is clearly and demonstrably opposed to Christianity.
cummunion is the ONLY thing Jesus asks use to do in remembrance of HIM, so i guess it is one ritual we should find the time to do, if not during a service, make a special time to do it!!!
Some Quakers would argue that it is the remembrance that is important, not the consumption of a wafer. Also, some Quakers do do communion. We have had schisms just like every other denomination of Christianity.
@@achristiananarchist2509 it seems like He was asking for us to do this to me, it also seems like the Holy Spirit moves me when i do this, when you have done it for a while then stop, like this covid year, you sure can tell something is missing in your life, i don't think your salvation depends on communion, but i sure do think it can further enrich your spiritual life and love of God!
@@robertfarris9357 You are using the word "you" when you really mean "me". Another feature of Quaker belief is a personal experience of God. We don't try to tell others how to believe, only explain the logic behind our own beliefs.
@@achristiananarchist2509 if you aren't doing it, how can the you mean you?
@@robertfarris9357 Hmm, the philosophical equivalent of a 'whose on first' gag...cute, I guess, but I hope you don't expect a real response to it.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him" (John 6:53-56).
Notice he says water AND, ie water is a requirement.
These are Jesus's words,and not some man's personal ideal which is truly form without substance.
"water" is not the words of jesus speaking in the aramaic which is the actual language that jesus spoke in
Miette Leclair o this is not miette writing, this is her quaker mother "anne" since i guess i logged in wrong on this youtube channel will try otherly asap
please cite your source.
A perfect example of a form without substance. The bible says (at one point out of hundreds of thousands of words): "water". So then we slavishly believe in the magical properties of actual, liquid, H2O to change our hearts forever? That's nonsense. That's superstition. And more than that, it is an unimportant detail pried out of a huge scripture and made into a cosmic doctrine by people who can't tell the difference between an outward form and an inward truth. Magical people. Wizards. Priests. Jesus said it? According to scripture, Jesus told us to cut our hands off and pluck our eyes out. Jesus spoke in figurative language. We are not wizards and priests, we are Christians.
There is a higher meaning to this stuff, the bible is not a book of heavenly municipal legal codes. It is not step-by-step manual for cosmic lawn mower repair. It is not a giant magic formula in which every word is as important as ever other word. It is a book of ancient wisdom and inspiration. Read it with the holy spirit in your heart and you will see what is important and what is not. Because without the holy spirit the whole bible means nothing. It is a book, a dead stack of pages. Or worse, an idol.
Hal Sawyer The word of God written is still the word of God. Sounds like you have a lack of faith in the ability for the God of the universe to do so. He did not mean it figuratively in "This is my body" stop trying to credit the divine with your philosophy. The bible is a gift from God. I see what is important. ACTION is important. Faith is important. You can not say you have faith when Christ said to do certain specific things and you refuse to do them. If it took you taking your own hand off to get loose of your sins would you do it? Or would you continue the road to perdition?
You sound like you listen to all the spirits, not just the holy one.
This is one of the worse videos I've watched on a very good channel. Unless you're well versed in religious history it's confusing, and when you are well versed it's incorrect. However, the main issue I have is with how decisive this is. Many, many people take communion and it is a deeply meaningful experience. To say that it was empty dismissed and demeans those religious experiences.
He doesn't say that it's empty. He says it may be empty for some people, which negates their connection with God - for THEM. I like certain rituals but many others seem to be being preached as to what it should mean to me, and it does't.
Where is Jesus Christ in all of this? Not one word.
The sad fact is most Christian denominations make a "religion" out of Christ instead of focusing on Christ's message and what he thought.
Not all Quakers are Christian. That's a feature, not a bug.
Thank you for convincing me not to be a Quaker
This is completely out of holy bible..... therefore not the Christianity....
Communion was instituted from Jesus himself
I take the Lords words over mans opinion
John 6 32 - 64
This is called cafeteria Christianity. Just pick and choose what suits you in the moment. There is no serious philosophy behind it
The point made at about the two minute mark is absolute nonsense. The reason puritan sermons take longer and are “thought out” is because they actually study the Word of God. Truth doesn’t come from the heart. It comes from God, and we have a huge book of His revelation to us. We don’t need some heartfelt message. He gave us a book full of Truth, yet that’s not good enough so let’s let someone get up and “speak from the heart.” Utter nonsense.
The bible clearly states that submersion baptism is a requirement for salvation. I was just baptized Sunday and I was given scripture examples. Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38 and 1 Peter 3:18-22
1 Pet. 3:21 makes a distinction between the external and internal (for lack of a better word) aspects of baptism. and excludes the former from effecting salvation.
Scripture written by men, whose experience, although valuable and precious, may be biased in certain ways.
Not Quakerism, but Quackerism. Sounds like an example of the kind of religious fanatics Luther called “enthusiasts.” No thank you. I’ll stick with historic, orthodox Christianity.
Very interesting video. I really like what was said about form without substance. I have experienced that in churches as well. But what I wonder is if the Quakers view the Bible as the inerrant Word of God. The very last part of the video threw me for a loop. I was with him, up until he started talking about the women preachers. Do Quakers believe that they can violate the instructions that God gives us in the New Testament concerning our gatherings? 1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
the women issue is a bit more difficult, while women can prophesy and share testimonies and have gifts, as we se in scripture such as Philips four daughters that prophesied in meeting. they were not to judge there husbands in the meetings in questioning them and in prophecy. This would contradict he order of God for women to be keepers at home and for their husbands to rule well their own homes. God does not cause such confiusion.
But many have wrongly understood these sections in 1 Cor 14 and 11 etc and timothy and sought to forbid prophecy and testimony, or spiritual songs etc.
Apostasy
Ugh that was contentless. This kind of "theology" is somewhat of a kindergarten level
Simplistic. Ignores much scripture. Not surprised.
I have no faith in your "King yahushua." He was a failed doomsday prophet & he's never coming back. I suggest you get used to it.
If Quakers would actually read their Bible, they'd understand that baptism and the Lord's Supper are beautiful reminders of what Christ has done for us. If they are empty and formal than perhaps one should reflect within and see if they truly are Saved or as Jesus said..."born again." Jesus taught singing "Psalms and Hymns and Spiritual Songs, Singing and making melody in your heart." This IS true and primitive Christianity. This is why I'm not part of the Friends b/c they don't fallow the Bible. It's our guide. Woman? They are to be "silent in the Church." I know this is not PC but it's BIBLE.
The sad fact is most Christian denominations make a "religion" out of Christ instead of focusing on Christ's message and what he thought.
No communion? Women ministry? You have to wonder what spirit is guiding these quakers. Truly, we must be in the end times.
jpmvidal Jesus returned in 70 AD www.anewdaydawning.com
Um, Quakers have had those features since the 17th century or so.
Quaker Oatmeal