Harley is going to be just fine. Your wrong about the 50 plus only buying bikes. I’m 44 with a new Roadglide-ST. I’m on my 4th Harley and I own a 2006 ultra classic. I started with Harley when I were 32. The younger people are replacing the older crowd they just not selling them like hot cakes right now. Some dealerships are selling way better than others. The company might get bought out but it won’t go away. It obvious you like the doom and gloom outlook for Harley since that seems to be the only thing you like talking about and focusing on. Crotch rockets are slowly creeping into the price range of Harley’s too.
I said all of the people I know who ride Harleys are over the age of 50. If you are 44 years old you are close enough to the age of 50 to reinforce the point that most of Harley's customers are older ones. Harley's highwater mark in sales volume was 360,000 bikes in 2006. They are less than half of that now. My issues are with how HD is run and not their bikes. I have owned several Harleys and still have one in the stable so I figure I am entitled to my opinion as I have had numerous interactions with them as a customer. I don't agree that sport bikes are becoming as expensive as Harleys. HD only has a few bikes under $20,000 and nothing with an MSRP under $13,500. Contrast that with say Suzuki who offers models under $10,000 and has all of their bikes costing less than $20,000 (including the top of the line Gen 3 Hayabusa which I own). Harley for their part has bikes that sell for well over $50,000 and has to offer people 96 month finance terms! I would say if you are bullish on HD's future you should buy their stock. They need all the help they can get.
@@cycletron I used to think Harley didn't want customers walking out with a new bike (in many cases even used) for anything under $20,000. Now I think it's more like $25,000. Even that could be too conservative.
you've hit the nail on the head. CJ likes to dump on HD. He's got a little following that helps boost his little opinion as well. The two groups he sites that purchase HD's are not exclusive. There's crossover from new purchases to used, back to new then back to used....over and over and over. I've been riding since 1991. Kawasaki 750 was the first. I'm now on a used CVO Ultra. I've had three new bikes and a handful of used. I'm looking at the EV's and HD makes the best one so far. They've put a tremendous amount of capital and research into the new EV market. I see HD as a leader in this regard. I don't understand what CJ is trying to do. Good for him that he likes his Katana. How about going on a tour with it? Make more sense than a LiveWire? There's a few LiveWire channels out there that give the pro's and cons. Most channels are either pro or con like CJ's. You don't get the whole picture being one-sided.
@@unchartedthickets Why so salty? You should watch more of my videos if you think I am one sided! I have my Gen3 Busa for touring. I also still have my 2020 HD Roadster but so what. You must have missed my video where I demo rode the LiveWire in 2020. I liked the bike and said so, it was just insanely priced at $30,000 (yes another one of Harley's great corporate pricing decisions, lol). I am laying out the business situation for Harley as I see it. People can agree, disagree or have an opinion somewhere in between.
@@stevenrice8439 Yes, I agree with you. They are all about keeping their unit profit to $3,700 or more for each bike they sell and the only way to do that is to sell mostly high-priced bikes.
I don't think a single member of the BOD rides at all, much less has the passion. Buying a bike isn't like buying a widget, does anyone at HD understand this?
I am a lifelong HD fan. Stopped by the dealership yesterday and you would be lucky to touch a new Street Glide or Road Glide touring model for under $30K, with some models over $40K. In my group of riders, I don't know too many old rich guys that can still afford to drop that kind of cash on a new bagger. Trust me, I would love to have a new one, but it ain't happening in my lifetime. I have to stick with the 20 year old machines that I can buy for under $10K.
Yes, the prices are getting way up there. The same is true with Indian's big tourers. Now the CVOs are going for well north of $50k. I could get 2 or 3 sport bikes for that kind of money.
I hate the dealer experience. Whether it’s cars or motorcycles. I tried to buy a 2023 road glide. The MSRP is $22k. Their quote out the door was almost $32k. Just no way I’m gonna pay that much for a bike. Maybe if I was filthy rich and had money coming out of my ears.
Yes that seems to be their play more often than not now. I suggest going to a Mom and Pop HD dealer if you can find one near you where you are more likely to get a bike near MSRP.
A bare bones street bob at $16.5 is just fu**ing ridiculous and then selling used bikes with 10k miles on them for the price of new or sometimes for whatever reason they cost more is nuts. Jochen is out of his mind. That guy has gotta go
Zeitz is doing everything he can to boost the stock price and cash in on his incentives. He made $44 million last year at HD and probably thinks he was underpaid.🤣🤣
I’m mowing the lawn while watching this and 7 minutes in I saw 4 separate Harleys ride by, and only one of them looked over 40, just thought that was too ironic not to share
My local dealership was built during the mid 90's boom.They catered to buyers that, for the most part, now make up a small percentage of their customers. The guy that buys a bike, a couple of grand in accessories and a grand worth of clothing are few and far between but they still have the overhead that was justified by those customers. I think they'll just keep downsizing until they find a level that will work. Harley used to have one of the best marketing departments in the world, I hope they still do because they're going to need it.
Yes, the overhead at those dealerships must be staggering. The mega dealer near me is open 7 days a week and has dozens of staffers at any given time. Harley's marketing department is struggling to convey a consistent message.
I think you are correct. To make matters worse, those dealerships are trying to scam every customer they can. Last K service done at a dealership, the tech comes out and says "your clutch is trashed." Clutch was fine and still is 20K later. Reported it to Milwaukee. No response...Fuck HD!
@@Intheemorning Unfortunately most of these "tech" (whatever happened to the "mechanics" are poorly trained at best. At worst the service departments are deliberately trying to scam people. The last time I had an oil change done at a HD dealership that got oil all over the engine when they replaced the filter. They tried to tell me that it was normal. I made them clean it all up before taking the bike home.
It is very simple. DO NOT BUY ANYTHING FROM HARLEY DAVIDSON. This company needs a very very very harsh wake up call and the paybacks for what they have done will be devastating and should be.
Younger riders can’t afford a new Harley here in Australia. A StreetBob starts at $28k and a StreetGlide starts at $44k. Most people have a bike as a second vehicle behind a car and no youngsters can afford both. It really is just a rich old man bike here.
Thank you for your comments. It sounds like that situation is becoming pretty common now just about everyone. More and more people in the U.S. seem to be done buying new Harleys and will stick with their old EVOs or Twin Cams.
I'm 68 and have had my license for 52 years. I just bought my first Harley 120 anniversary Tri-Glide for $48000 out the door. The quality is now where as good as my 2002 American-made Honda Goldwing that I still own. I found that the dealer is much worst also.
I agree with you times are changing Sears JC Penny are gone . The price of these new Harleys , more than an average car .Its not every day transportation . You got to give Harley a lot of credit , they had a good long run , more then other bike companies .
I think you make a good point and sadly I think you are correct. Someone may buy them out but for better or worse that would likely be the end of HD as we know them.
The last three bikes I have bought were Indians. (I am 42, btw). I have tried to by an HD for the past seven years, but the dealership experience was so poor. I'd rather take a beating than shop a deal with HD. With Indian, the MSRP is what you pay. No added "market adjustment" like with HD. Walking into a Harley dealership reminds me of walking into an Abercrombie and Fitch.
Your experience mirrors mine, except for the smaller Mom and Pop dealerships which I have found to be the opposite of these shady Mega dealers. Of course Indian makes great bikes so it sounds like you have solved your problem with the Harley dealers!
Another beaut vid. Problem is that they tried the Street line and no success. I think styling was bad and didn't help...think Virago 250 looks like a cruiser. I agree they need an entry level sub $10k bike. Younger guys here in Australia buy used 883s, Enfields and like that.
I'm sad to say I completely agree. With what is coming in the economy, this could be the death knell. I'm not a Harley fan personally but I want them to succeed so that we have choices and would hate to see such a historied company go away. Fingers crossed they figure this out.
yes, it took me a life time to save up the cash to buy my new Soft Tail Standard, the only one I could afford because I refuse to finance(usury,no thanks). Goog points, Thanks.
I'm a 52 year old rider...and I've had 7 Harleys plus many Jap bikes in the beginning of my riding ....but I like the idea of a smaller entry level bike...for like 5k to 7k...let's not forget Harley partnered with the Italians back in the day for a smaller CC bike...so the gatekeepers need to take a break and let the smaller bikes come in to the fold....and then new riders will come...just my 2 cents
Always enjoy hearing your perspective on things like this. The one thing that they are doing right is the bikes. At least from my experience the new bikes have been nothing but great outta the box. Still don’t own one though🤷♂️
Hi Dave. I agree. My 2018 and 2019 Street Glide Specials were both great bikes with no reliability issues at all. If I were in the market for a new Harley, I would go for the Low Rider S. Thanks for checking out the video!👍✌
Another problem H-D has is debt default. They cannot repossess bikes in default. Dealers & H-D go on the hook with loans then buyers default and they cannot get the bikes back.
Yes, and it is a growing problem for HD and their dealers. How could they not see this coming when so many dealers are selling bikes so far over MSRP. That makes people owe more money on their bikes than they're worth for pretty much the whole time the owe money on the bike.
@@Stevel_ Apparently there aren't enough people in the repo game post covid and those that remain would rather repo a car or truck as it is much easier than trying to repo a motorcycle.
well they are all just now starting to see an up-tick in that auto loans credit union ect... i sure hope i am wrong but i see it getting a whole lot worse before it gets better and doing so soon
In my opinion, Harley may eventually go down again. I love Harley but 1. I haven’t seen any real advertisement on Harley really at all. 2. It’s almost not worth it to buy one new. And believe me I’ve been wanting a newer Harley for a while. Im not paying what I would pay for a truck for a motorcycle. Better off grabbing one from burkes repo outlet or the auction instead of heading to the dealership. 3. They all do the same thing. A newer softail does the same thing as my evo softail does, just ones older. They all do the same thing. Also in a rebuttal to where’s the new ones are faster, my answer to that is throw an s&s motor in and you’ll keep up with a st
I agree, Harley put greed before the customer and they will get their just deserts… and I have always been a fan of the FLHT Electraglide Standard, sad really.
Every company is saying by the year, way after I am dead or retired, we will stop making internal combustion engines. I don't know how much you have been paying attention to what new bikes are coming out. The Pan America and new Sportster models. I do believe in 2024 an entry level bike will be offered. I do see the Rev Max in a touring model to compete with the Challenger. Harley being a premium brand, buyers will tend to be older. In fact, if you look at the demographics of people who ride touring, adventure and high end bikes, you will see most are older, empty nesters with disposable income. Wife and I are 55 and empty nesters. I am retired, her semi-retired. We have 6 bikes, 3 are Harleys. Something neither of us could have afforded when supporting a family (both of us had prior lives apart) For 99% of motorcycle owners, it is a luxury, when raising a family, a Harley is not an affordable luxury. If the whole family is into riding, going to be a stable of dirt bikes, quads or SideXSides
I agree with what you are saying there. If HD gets these entry level bikes back into dealerships they will be back on the right track as far as I am concerned.
I would Love to be able to buy a USA made bike or a bike from a US company anyway , i had big hopes for Indian with the Polaris connection making us a modern Adventure or dual sport bike but nothing yet , i do like the recent Adv bike HD came out with maybe a few smaller lighter more budget models of that would help them , the Adventure bike market (( and the lower priced bikes like 125-250ccs road going like the Honda Grom or Navi )) is the only class of bikes growing in market share is my understanding ??
Things no doubt vary around the country, but if Harley didn't have a lot of riders of all ages in a town like Milwaukee where they have been headquartered all these years they would really be in trouble!
I guess I’m thinking a lot more positively than you. I just bought a ‘23 Road glide Limited CVO ( #1227 )and paid a $1500 “premium” for some reason. It is said that the more you pay the happier you are. That’s me! This is my third Harley and am really loving it! I started with an ‘09 Ultra Classic then on to a ‘15 gold & black CVO Limited and now the “Anniversary! I believe the company will be here in 6 or 7 years to ply me with their “ new and improved” V Twin of 2030! There will still be lots of premium fuel to feed it and the “Climate Hoax” should be a thing of the past by then, my opinion! As far as the dealership, Mighty Peace Harley did a fine job getting me the bike and even “hiding” it from the public until I had an opportunity to “touch” it! It was a comfortable transaction and resulted in me and my bride riding it off into the sunset! Keep them coming, Harley Davidson! There are still lots of “fans” out here!
Thank you for your comments and enjoy your new bike! I do appreciate your optimism. I think HD needs to offer a least one fully liquid cooled touring bike like Indian has with the Challenger. I just think HD would be better off if they didn't make such a huge bet on electric motorcycles.
Harley Pros: Their Reliability and Style are leaps and bounds better than they have ever been. Harley Cons: Super Expensive Bike for heavy underpowered machine especially compared to Indian Challenger and Honda Goldwings now. Personal Hate: It’s actually not the price. As I have said before I would pay a premium if the customer service and quality was on par with the price. Add in the fact they really try and scam customers on finance deals and upcharges which is crazy to me. Ultimately their books are not looking good. Will they fold? I am not sure but they will have some high winds and heavy seas ahead.
Pretty much agree with your analysis but don't know that I'd write them off so soon . . . maybe another several years if they tweak their operations sufficiently within the current operating model. I suspect that that model may itself be fundamentally reconsidered and redesigned when the writing on the wall actually flips to imminent demise and there's simply no other options left . . . when the Grim Reaper's hand is just above your shoulder and reality sets in.
That is a really good point. If they find themselves in a desperate struggle for survival they will have free rein to do anything they need to without having to worry about who they upset with the traditional customer base.
Usually when a company drops their interest rates, they raise their asking price to make up for lost interest. They know every trick in the book to get your money.
Your so big on their demise ! They will be just fine ! They have endured through the good times & bad ! They will be around much longer than You Sir! 😂
I JUST SOLD MY HARLEY AND GLAD TO SEE IT GO. WAY OVERPRICED ON EVERYTHING YOU NEED ON THE BIKE. THEY TREAT YOU LIKE GARBAGE WHEN YOU WALK IN THE DEALERSHIP BECAUSE THE PEOPLE WORKING THEIR NOW ARE JUST ORDER TAKERS. I NOW ENJOY MY CORVETTE Z06 AND HARLEY DAYS ARE NUMBERED AS A COMPANY.
Wokeness, electric bikes, carbon emissions, the need for water-cooling, inflation, economics, the stereotype Harley rider image, young person disinterest, and cheaper more capable motorcycles all conspire against Harley-Davidson. The HD name will survive, but some Indian or Chinese company may aquire brand rights.
i think that would be sadder than just watching them go BK , selling the brand out to China , fitting but a far worse fate than just ending in my opinion
I rode recently from Vancouver Island to San Francisco and noticed a huge % of bikes touring were Harleys. It feels like well over 80% to me, but its likely lower (?). However, when you look closely and talk to the people riding them, a lot of those Harleys appear to be numerous years from brand new. From what I saw it seems there are a lot (a lot!) of Twin Cams riding around out there. So here is HD's niggling problem - the evos and twin cams are indefinitely "fixeable" at mom and pop workshops - and I saw an evo era Road King seemingly in great condition for sale here in BC yesterday for US $4000. So why buy a new HD? Just me, but no chance.
Wow that sounds like an awesome ride! I agree it seems many people are over the new Harley drama and will simply stick with their older machines and who could blame them.
@@cycletron This....^^^^^^..... nothing I have seen from Harley in the last 6 or 7 years even appeals to me. Dropping the Dyna and putting the low rider, etc. on a Softail chassis was one of the worst moves they could have made, then s#!+-canning the evo Sporty last year. Stupid. I'll stick with the '97 883, and my '02 DYNA. The twinkie 88 that is in it plenty for me. The DYNAS of the past were "the working man's bike". Harley has lost their identity.
Question? Do 18-25 year olds drive Benzs, BMWs, Alfas, or any other luxury marquees in large enough numbers to justify a manufacturer to “cheapen” existing vehicles or create a money losing one to just get people in them? No, they start out in mass market vehicles and as time passes and they progress in their careers they move into nicer vehicles generally. Same is true of motorcycles. Harleys have never been the cheapest bikes. Just because some folks bought some old war surplus bikes and created a culture that doesn’t change the fact that Harley was selling new bikes, making money and building a brand. I was driving old GM cars when young but 30 years later with hard work and success I enjoy my Benz and Alfa. Let youngsters enjoy a CF Moto or metric bike of choice till the time comes when comfort and that Harley feeling becomes their goal and reality. Truth be told, if Harley or other premium brands try and cater to the masses no matter the cost then they lose the very essence of why people strive for them. Hmmm, maybe Trabant will come back and build bikes to appease the masses.
You are correct that Harley has ceded the lower end of the market (both in price and engine displacement) to everyone else, particularly in the last 3 years. However, there was a time when you could buy an 883 Sportser for not too much over the cost of a metric bike. Of course their cheapest Sportster will cost more than $15k out-the-door. I think the new entry level bikes for Harley will be the LiveWire as I mentioned in the video. Like you, I drove crappy cars when I was young and now have a lot of premium vehicles included my Boxster S. However, I can remember thinking when I was 20 years old that I would love to own a Porsche one day, I just didn't know whether it would happen. The difference is I don't think most 20 years olds are interested in having a Harley these days but that is just my impression.
And just about ever other American manufacturer. Plus the middle class is taking a huge hit with inflation, and stock market losses. Ain’t Brandonomics great?
Well you do have a point: the average Harley Davidson customer will die -out, due to high age. Exceptions of course do exist, but they are no more than that: the very few exceptions. I've mentioned before the example of the British Steam Locomotive companies that were stubbornly holding on to manufacturing Steam Locomotives, while Diesel Locomotives already were available and the market share for Diesel locomotives grew immensely. So the British Steam locomotive scene died, because they were producing out-dated products. They died although they could not believe what actually happened at the time, they never saw it coming, because they were not ready to give up steam technology, because that was what they believed in. Do you see the ironic parallel here...? If Harley Davidson keeps on producing fossil gas engines in their motorcycles, they'll die for several reasons: 1. The market share for motorcycling in general ( for all makes) has tremendously shrunk since young persons are no longer attracted to motorcycles. 2. Harley Davidson does everything except innovation, and they barely purchase anything innovative at all, while this is the era of innovation (technically and environmentally) Harley Davidson basically sells all old tech; outdated tech, obsolete tech, including their newest Pan Am and Sportster-S lineup. And when/if they keep on doing that....their fate will be the same as the dying British Steam Locomotive scene: Selling old tech in a global new tech demanding environment is asking for active euthanasia...
Thanks Dutchy! I agree with you. HD's biggest problem is that they want it both ways: they want to keep selling the same type of bike to the same type of customer while stating that they no longer plan to sell bikes of that type in the near future. Of course it makes sense that they do this in context of being a publicly traded company, but it will lead to their demise shortly I think.
I'm one of those "aging out" riders. I've ridden Harleys for over 30 years, but no longer. Now that I'm retired, they are just too damn expensive and too heavy. The mega-dealer experience is awful. I liked it a lot better when the owners name WAS the dealership. Now they are all owned by corporations or big car dealerships, and have stupid names that don't even tell you what city they are in. Killer Creek, White Lightning, Mountain Creek, Thunder Mountain. It's all gibberish if you're from out of town. HD has definity lost the plot.
You buy a Harley and you spend and spend because they make a sud standard product. Becoming increasingly hard for some people to find that cash!! Yes they need to introduce the smaller bikes to get interest in younger riders.
Your ‘3 year lifespan’ prediction maybe music to Hero motocorp’s ears .. After all they’re world #1 or 2 in terms of motorcycle sales and cash rich to buy HD !
@@cycletron Nah they will be dead before HD. They are showing growth but when you start a 0 everything is growth. Last I checked they are not selling anymore Victory did, As far as HD going under I believe Buffet will bail them out again
Well, the 120th bash appears to be a big success. Even with the RUclips "Woke Smoke" and Canadian real smoke, the venues are sold out and even the Foo Fighters, that RUclips claimed and cancelled anti-American band was sold out. (WISN News and The Business Journal). So there seems to be a disconnect between the RUclipsrs and the loyal HD fans or the loyal HD fans and HD management don't watch or don't care about RUclips, because the city is filled with bikes and I'm sure the Bud /HD beer cans are now collector items. Yes, the brand has major issues moving forward, but woke isn't one of them.
I figured they would have a good turn out as the concert tickets have been sold out for over a month. I think some people find that it is a much cheaper proposition to attend the HD Headquarters event then say going to Sturgis. I also saw a pretty steady stream of helmetless Harley riders head east into Wisconsin from Minnesota this past week so I figured many of them were going to Milwaukee. HD plans to make this an annual event. I think the group that said they were going to sell their Harley's or debadge their bikes is a small (yet vocal) customer segment.
@@cycletron Yes, I would go to Milwaukee just to see the museum and a HD golf cart, HD boat, HD snowmobile, wait, that sounds a lot like Polaris. Now I have my thinking cap on, a Great Lakes loop and a stop by an annual HD bash sounds like a bucket list trip.
@@geneclarke2205 When you previously mentioned that Great Lakes loop I thought it sounded like a good reason to go to Milwaukee. The weather (aside from the smoke) has been fantastic up here for the last several weeks. I am staying close to Rochester though for the next few months so maybe next year.
I got a 4 year 50K warranty on my Cadillac. Basic warranty. Then a powertrain warranty on top of that. Harley Davidson gives you 2 years. Then you're done. If you're charging Cadillac prices, and they are, Harley Davidson better up the anti and up their game warranty wise. Opening up at 10am, poor customer service, indifference by sales staff, lack of stock, and additional fees won't cut it. But hey! Let's sell electric bikes with little range at premium prices! That will bring in paying customers....
I totally agree with you. HD is lost in the sauce when it comes to their electric play. I am posting a video about that very topic tomorrow morning. Also most of the HD dealers are horrid.
I still believe dealerships are the biggest problem. People WANT cars and motorcycles, but cringe at the buying process. If it were as simple as buying the vehicle at sticker price + taxes it wouldn’t be an issue, but dealers slap on thousands of dollars of bullshit fees on top of outrageous financing costs.
it is that simple , its up to you , well i dont buy Harleys and never have but its always been that simple for me otherwise , last several bikes were 2KTM's 1Husky 1Honda
This is the truth. I won't buy Harley for this reason... the dealers are literal assholes but can't answer anything about the bike...they are like people right off the streets. They want a.lung and kidney
Harley needs to go back to some more traditions. It always has been a mid range age group. Work on pleasing your traditional following and they will come.
They need to design a full water jacket engine for their cruisers... I want reliability and longevity. These air cooled engines run too hot. With that said, they make the best looking cruisers in the world. Sumping is another problem that still exists. The electric bike is a joke. The high interest rates are highway robbery. I have top tier credit and they wanted to charge me 14+ %. I went to my credit union and got a very low interest rate. My two cents :-)
Thank you for your comments. You make great points that I happen to agree with. Indian has had their fully liquid cooled Challenger for 4 years already. I think the electric bikes are fun, I just wouldn't buy one and I certainly don't understand why HD has bet their future on electric motorcycles when the market form them is just so small. I have no love for the mega HD dealers. If I ever buy another new Harley, which is doubtful, it would be from a Mom and Pop dealership.
@@cycletron the go kart I built my grandkids is fun... but it is only practical for ripping up and down the street. the HD CEO is an ESP woke leader who supports the all electric world. this electric motorcycle is being used for testing all aspects of the electric motorcycle market. they don't care if they lose money at this stage. it is an investment, which includes R&D from buyers and their warranty claims. and the battery only lasts 5 years before it is trash? good grief. now I expect my weed eater battery to go dead after so many charges. the cost to replace it is affordable. but after so many charges to my electric motorcycle, I do not want to know what the replacement cost is, assuming you can replace the batteries. all 4 of the HD dealerships within 60 miles of my house are all owned by investment companies. you got my curiosity up. I am going to research and find the nearest mom and pop shop. and there is the possibility that none exist. Indian is way ahead of the game. HD is trying to compete, but again, I think they have come up short with this new 121 engine. first off, we all know that it takes HD 3+ years to iron out the bugs in their new engine lines. second, it will be interesting to see whether this new engine design actually runs cooler than its previous M8 oil/air cooled engines. I assume these new 121 engines also have a fan assisted oil cooler. if so, then I am sure the new engine runs cooler. but can it run cool all the time or does stop and go traffic kill it as in previous year engines? HD does a lot of things right. but they could do better in other areas : - )
Time for HD to show the CEO & execs to the door, without the “golden parachute.” Go back to basics & seek out individuals that actually ride motorcycles in general & HD’s in particular.
Harley is to stubborn Keep the "potato" sound for the older riders who want to buy "tradition" but come out with a new engine (like the challenger) to compete with Indian I shouldn't have to buy a 30K bike and spend 5 to 8k to get it perform like the Indian
I agree. I don't know why they are taking so long to offer a higher performing, fully liquid cooled bike like the Challenger which came out 4 years ago!
You are missing the whole thing . The issue is price nobody wants a car payment for a bike. The same way there will always be a rocker that likes metal music we will always have real bikers. HD is disconnected from the real customer because they want to go woke. Not to mention the CEO is definitely not the right guy for the job he's a German and not a Harley guy.go woke go broke
You are right, their monthly payments are in the car payment range now. I agree that this CEO is not going to be good for HD long term and needs to go. I gave him the benefit of the doubt at first, but now I am definitely not a fan.
Lot's to unpack here. The cafe idea is interesting. The dealers in my area seem to be strategically in the wrong places to make cafe's work. Harley has done some smart moves with marketing Livewire. Separating the brand was a good idea. I think they have further to go with the marketing. Livewire solves a commuting motorcycle problem. Harley is largely a touring motorcycle company. The US doesn't seem to be a commuting motorcycle market. They need to get the prices and costs down, and take their electric products to the Asian market.
I think you have a great analysis of where their market challenges arise. I actually think HD's electric offering are top notch, they are just not something I am interested in but I am not interested in a Trike for that matter either. I hope the Del Mar does well. It should be a great commuter or a fun, around town second bike. The acceleration on these electric bikes are as quick, if not quicker, than most sport bikes available today.
@@cycletron the model I think that is interesting for the Asian commuter market is the one that a company called Gogoro seems to be tackling. Electric scooters, with a swappable battery infrastructure. Not financial stable yet, but really interesting approach to the electric commuter issues in a scooter dominated market.
Great info, but I am no expert, but I think the combustion engine could be designed to run on Hydrogen, that way, we all still get the power and noise. HD need to invest in R&D instead of this EV crap!
Great point! There was a time when there was talk of biofuels and hydrogen but now all we hear about is battery power and I don't know why that is. I think maybe people will go back to alternative fueled I.C.E. vehicles once they figure out that EV's can only be a small part of the transportation equation.
Naa, more hysteria from negative reporting. Just downsize to fit the market. I think the Bronx type street fighter would do well and the ear sport bikes sold at hd would do well. Always have the beautiful big bikes for sale as the end goal of the kiddie bikes.
My video struck you as hysterical?!😂😂 You cite the Bronx, and I get a lot of comments from people who think it would be a great bike. The problem is that HD in all of their corporate wisdom canceled production of that bike and you don't even hear a whisper about it from them these days.
i sure as hell hope not , it was wrong when they did it before and could be part of why their are in this position now never learning how to make a competitive product
The Del Mars range is 42 miles at 70mph. Utterly. Useless. EV will be the greatest red herring in the history of the automotive industry, Mark my words. They need an entry level model badly. 4-6k for young people and first time buyers. Royal Enfield is owning the segment right now.
I agree. I just did an 80 mile round trip on my Katana and at many points hit a speed over 70 mph. The battery on Del Mar would have run out on the same ride before I could make it home, as there were no chargers on my route. And I agree that Harley should sell that 440X here but most people think they won't based on the comments I have received.
yup we are still decades away from the EV & electric motorcycle being a viable alternative for the average buyer , closer in auto than in bikes but a damn long ways off yet
@@justsomedude445 I would say that you are right about that. The EV market for motorcycles in particular is a very small slice of a very small pie compared to why most people ride.
@@cycletron they are a novelty item at best currently , i follow the "ZERO" electric motorcycle company LOVE the technology but anyone owning one probably has several other more practical bikes first is my bet
Harleys are no more expensive now than they were 40 years ago! I get tired of hearing how expensive they are! Have any of you bought a new pickup truck lately? Y’all must not leave mommy’s basement and go into town very often. A decent equipped Chevy pickup is $60,000. A new Harley has at least since I bought my first new one in 1983 about half the price of a new pickup.
The price of pickups has gotten out of control. Now dealers are finding that they have a glut of unsold trucks piling up at dealerships across the country.
as usual we agree CJ on what Harleys should do, but they are NOT doing it !! Jochen Zeitz might have been good for Puma Sneakers, but he's Clueless what to do with Harley, he wants to turn it into Ferrari or Lamborghini limited very expense high end bikes. But like you said he's selling to seniors and that's short term at best, and Gen X was no where near the population boom of my generation the Boomers, so the numbers just get smaller. and those that think because Harleys is still here means they always will be ok, in many cases Harley was just Damn Lucky and that was it !! in the 1920's there were over 100 Motorcycle makers in the USA, by WWII only 2 remained Harley and Indian, but Harley almost went out of business in 1928, but by seer luck a Japanese internal combustion engine company was looking for help at the same time Harley was looking for a Work Around of the British Empires Tariffs in Europe and Asia, this Company was named Rikou and they SAVED Harley from going belly up by building licensed Harley's under the name Rikuo, and to this day they still work with that company Rikuo was bought out by Showa (yep that Showa) lol. Again after WWII Harley was like Indian in trouble, but they had somewhat modernized HD with the knuckle and panheads, where Indian was still making flathead like motors, but by the beginning of the shovelhead era Harley was in court for Bankruptcy when once again they were saved by AMF and AMF put a TON of money into Harley, and i'm convinced it was Harley that killed AMF, but before AMF died and went into history Harley Executives with the help of the US Government in loans and a Tariff on anything over 700cc's and AMF's Evolution Engine that they started. But As you spoke of Before HD needs to toss out the Germán fool and go back to where AMF started with bikes people can afford , if i ran Harley i'd dump the Livewire program as the car companies are finding no one wants electric, they don't sell. and frankly i'd bring back the Buell Name and make that my sport bike division and offer the Chinese CX and the India bikes as entry level and bring back the sprint name in a 600 and 750 cc at an AFFORDABLE PRICE and then lower the prices on the softails and rev max bikes, and standard baggers, then charge the big money on special limited bikes like the CVO's. I am one of the guys you speak of when you say i will NEVER buy another new Harley.....1 i'm in my mid 60's, and 2 they are out of my price range, it's sad that more and more dealers employees will never own a Harley because a dealers just don't pay enough. and your right speaking of the older riders, like i said i'm in my mid 60's and i'm a HOG member with Seacoast and Cocheco in NH and Members under 40 slim at best, most are 50 and older and same with the Big Harleyish Rallies the hot babes at Laconia in the 70's are Now in their 70's Now. OMG are you right on point with the Dealership Experience, Nothing but High Pressure Sales and insane interest rates and Management that doesn't care, thousands above MSRP even with a Glut of product, and more and group owners who own car dealerships and hire people that know nothing about bikes, and have 20 sales staff and 8 service dept staff, that's when you know you're at a crap dealer. when i started working dealerships they were family owned and the owner was always there to help a customer, Now a group owner sighting is like seeing a mover star and just as rare. OH !! and CJ Harley has a new deal that will chase off customers, many dealer had loyalty programs mine it's called MVP and by going to events and buying parts and motorclothes we earned higher discounts, WELL harley killed those dealer programs for their new harley membership program where you can also earn points, but not discounts but like 1000 points will warn you a dollar on your harley credit card, my local MVP was getting me 15% off anything in the dealer, Now Nope i'll have to spend 10s of thousands to get back 20 bucks, and frankly this may be my last year with HOG and the dealer will see me almost NEVER.
Thank you Bruce. I really appreciate your in depth comments and your extensive historical knowledge of HD! Their corporate decisions are producing a slow motion train wreck. Zeitz needs to go, but there are 9 others just like him on their board of directors. It will take new ownership after they go bankrupt to change direction in any meaningful way.✌️👍
@@cycletron my fear is someone like FORD or GM Buys them when they go belly up and they kill off the surviving mom and pop dealers, here in New England i think we only have a couple left and Harley is trying hard to push them out. i was part of that toward the end of my career i went to work for Hank at Easthampton HD and under pressure from the motor co he built a new fancy building in the town next door and it became Southampton HD, then Ed Lemco came and bought it from Hank and his wife, Lemco had a scheme where he would buy dealerships and sell them to past business owners on a buy here pay here basis , he bought 3 dealers up here, but didn't have a plan when Ed Lemco passed away and Southampton closed it's doors and now there is 1 dealer in all of western mass when there used to be 4, My last dealer was in Rhode Island and Mass, and owned by 2 brothers and they sold the mass store and the RI store i heard also now has a new owner. then Big Bore HD became minute man HD, and they got bought by a group and it's now battleship HD, miss it, i loved my customers and running a dealership, but these corporation dealers are AWFUL and they will be the demise of Harley, and all it would take is Polaris waking up and STOP Trying to be Harley, if they became totally independent in their thought and pricing they could put a nail in HD's Coffin, but right now they are nothing more than a cheap knock off of harley at the same high price.
but Ferrari's and Lamborghini's are actually cutting edge fast high performance cars , HD is the polar opposite of that , they have survived on "Nostalgia" and promoting the cool "image" , well in my opinion , instead of developing new products or staying up on modern tech and performance , sorry but to me they sell pieces of jewelry more than motorcycles
@@brucesantacory1390 Thank you Bruce. I agree, HD with these mega corporate dealerships are a growing problem. As you point out, Indian needs lo lose their inferiority complex. The Challenger and Pursuit names just reinforce the idea that they are up and comers compared to Harley Davidson.
Nope. Too big to fail. There is an entire world out there living in the 2030s with electric this and electric that all wireless everything glued to their phones making 250k a year living downtown Seattle, etc. They will grow up and want to see the world on an electric 2 wheel campermobile. Harley will cater to them.
I have to admit that I love my electric weed whacker that I bought when the 2 stroke one went belly up! Plus you can't find anyone to work on 2 strokes anymore. I could see that with I.C.E. vehicles at some point where there is nobody left who can still work on them.
Instead of Harley-Davidson, can you just say the "American big V-twin touring" bikes have a limited future. That would put Indian in the same boat with HD. These are Boomer generation bikes and as the Boomers hang up their riding gear, so too will HD and Indian and bikes like the BMW R18 touring models. If this is in fact the case, then the LiveWire investment makes sense for the next generation less interested in touring and more focused on urban riding and mobility. BMW's CE02 and CE04 EV's appear to be targeting this hip urban market and the Del Mar seems to fit into this urban lifestyle. So HD's strategy is to suck all the cash from the boomers and then as next generation inherits billions of dollars from their parents, they can spend it on urban bikes and maybe an entirely new 2 and 3 wheel lifestyle. I mean who would have thought that e-bikes would now outsell peddle bikes or kids would run me over with e-scooters and e-skateboards or a pink e-Barbie car. And, on my Vets Ride Saturday, that Can-Am's and Slingshots are now so common that the Harley hard core no longer makes fun. So the question is what will HD look like on their 150th?
The Del Mar is what Harley should have come out with at the beginning. It actually could be a viable bike for the urban rider who wants a quiet commuter with little to no maintenance needs. I didn't even think about all the money these younger generations will be inheriting from the Boomers. Must be nice! I never inherited anything except some firearms which is fine since I wasn't expecting anything.
@@cycletron Newsweek said; "Millennials are expected to hold five times as much wealth as they do today by 2030, when they're estimated to inherit over $68 trillion from boomers." The problem is boomers are savers and millennials are spenders and, generally, lack an understanding of budgeting and the value of money. The article goes on to say the majority didn't know their credit scores or how to calculate loan interest. They have a buy-now-pay-later attitude. Experiences were high on their spending list, like a Taylor Swift concert ticket over budgeting for next months rent. 2050 may turn out to be a train wreck.
@@geneclarke2205 I wish the Millennials well. I am going to need them to support the economy when I retire! If they are going to inherit this much money after living like there's no tomorrow, they may turn out to much smarter and wiser than me.
electric cars and bikes are still such a super small tiny niche of the market though , what class of bikes have been gaining in market share ?? my understanding is only the Adventure/dual sport class and the small entry bike class like the Honda Grom or Navi , the rest have been shrinking for a decade , no ??
Best way to kill the company is to go all electric I will not buy a bike nor will I ride a bike or car for that matter that I have to plug in and to go buy a new one is so expensive the very people that made them what they are can't afford to even look at new ones so if they want to kill the Harley-Davidson brand all they have to do is make em all electric you said all the older riders will die out and they will just focus on new and young riders well we are still here and we sill don't like the electric crap and by the way almost all the new and young riders I know ( and that's a lot ) still want old school bikes not the new crap they are pushing out !!!
Thanks for your comments. That tells me there still would have been a good market for the traditional Sportsters that they killed off to replace them with liquid-cooled versions.
@@cycletron because any criticism of hd and some go straight ad hominem not even listening to the actual words you said ...is funny , criticize MY FAV brand and ill respond to tell you just how butthurt i am dammit LoL
Harley is going to be just fine. Your wrong about the 50 plus only buying bikes. I’m 44 with a new Roadglide-ST. I’m on my 4th Harley and I own a 2006 ultra classic. I started with Harley when I were 32. The younger people are replacing the older crowd they just not selling them like hot cakes right now. Some dealerships are selling way better than others. The company might get bought out but it won’t go away. It obvious you like the doom and gloom outlook for Harley since that seems to be the only thing you like talking about and focusing on. Crotch rockets are slowly creeping into the price range of Harley’s too.
I said all of the people I know who ride Harleys are over the age of 50. If you are 44 years old you are close enough to the age of 50 to reinforce the point that most of Harley's customers are older ones.
Harley's highwater mark in sales volume was 360,000 bikes in 2006. They are less than half of that now. My issues are with how HD is run and not their bikes. I have owned several Harleys and still have one in the stable so I figure I am entitled to my opinion as I have had numerous interactions with them as a customer.
I don't agree that sport bikes are becoming as expensive as Harleys. HD only has a few bikes under $20,000 and nothing with an MSRP under $13,500. Contrast that with say Suzuki who offers models under $10,000 and has all of their bikes costing less than $20,000 (including the top of the line Gen 3 Hayabusa which I own). Harley for their part has bikes that sell for well over $50,000 and has to offer people 96 month finance terms!
I would say if you are bullish on HD's future you should buy their stock. They need all the help they can get.
@@cycletron I used to think Harley didn't want customers walking out with a new bike (in many cases even used) for anything under $20,000. Now I think it's more like $25,000. Even that could be too conservative.
you've hit the nail on the head. CJ likes to dump on HD. He's got a little following that helps boost his little opinion as well. The two groups he sites that purchase HD's are not exclusive. There's crossover from new purchases to used, back to new then back to used....over and over and over. I've been riding since 1991. Kawasaki 750 was the first. I'm now on a used CVO Ultra. I've had three new bikes and a handful of used. I'm looking at the EV's and HD makes the best one so far. They've put a tremendous amount of capital and research into the new EV market. I see HD as a leader in this regard. I don't understand what CJ is trying to do. Good for him that he likes his Katana. How about going on a tour with it? Make more sense than a LiveWire? There's a few LiveWire channels out there that give the pro's and cons. Most channels are either pro or con like CJ's. You don't get the whole picture being one-sided.
@@unchartedthickets Why so salty? You should watch more of my videos if you think I am one sided! I have my Gen3 Busa for touring. I also still have my 2020 HD Roadster but so what.
You must have missed my video where I demo rode the LiveWire in 2020. I liked the bike and said so, it was just insanely priced at $30,000 (yes another one of Harley's great corporate pricing decisions, lol).
I am laying out the business situation for Harley as I see it. People can agree, disagree or have an opinion somewhere in between.
@@stevenrice8439 Yes, I agree with you. They are all about keeping their unit profit to $3,700 or more for each bike they sell and the only way to do that is to sell mostly high-priced bikes.
The only way to save Harley Davidson is to get rid of the current board and replace them with people who know what they are doing! 🇬🇧
Agreed! There is way too much focus on short-term results.
There's not even a Harley or a Davidson family member on the board !!!!! Wtf
I don't think a single member of the BOD rides at all, much less has the passion. Buying a bike isn't like buying a widget, does anyone at HD understand this?
I am a lifelong HD fan. Stopped by the dealership yesterday and you would be lucky to touch a new Street Glide or Road Glide touring model for under $30K, with some models over $40K. In my group of riders, I don't know too many old rich guys that can still afford to drop that kind of cash on a new bagger. Trust me, I would love to have a new one, but it ain't happening in my lifetime. I have to stick with the 20 year old machines that I can buy for under $10K.
Yes, the prices are getting way up there. The same is true with Indian's big tourers. Now the CVOs are going for well north of $50k. I could get 2 or 3 sport bikes for that kind of money.
Amen to that! Maybe a nice ADV bike and a 4×4 truck to go with it.
The 120th Anniversary Footdragger Poserpalooza! Count me in! No EVO's, Pan's, or Shovel's admitted. What's a carburetor? Where are my loafers?
🤣🤣
Hey now dammit! No Twinkies probably allowed either! Don't forget about those! You will never see me on an M8! And yes, mine is carbed! 😆
Ditto brother 😅
LoLoL= perfect !!
Hey I am 66 years old and just ordered a new 2023 Fat Boy 120 Anniversary 114. Harley Davidson is doing a great job building real nice bikes.
Enjoy your new bike! I like many of HD's bikes, just not a fan of most of their dealers or their corporate folks for that matter.
I hate the dealer experience. Whether it’s cars or motorcycles. I tried to buy a 2023 road glide. The MSRP is $22k. Their quote out the door was almost $32k. Just no way I’m gonna pay that much for a bike. Maybe if I was filthy rich and had money coming out of my ears.
Yes that seems to be their play more often than not now. I suggest going to a Mom and Pop HD dealer if you can find one near you where you are more likely to get a bike near MSRP.
Even if I was rich I'm not going to let myself get ripped off. That much markup is a rip-off.
there has to be a whole lot more to that story from $22k - to - $32k ?? a whole lot ! anyway ever hear of the 'common denominator' theory ?
A bare bones street bob at $16.5 is just fu**ing ridiculous and then selling used bikes with 10k miles on them for the price of new or sometimes for whatever reason they cost more is nuts. Jochen is out of his mind. That guy has gotta go
Zeitz is doing everything he can to boost the stock price and cash in on his incentives. He made $44 million last year at HD and probably thinks he was underpaid.🤣🤣
I’m mowing the lawn while watching this and 7 minutes in I saw 4 separate Harleys ride by, and only one of them looked over 40, just thought that was too ironic not to share
Thanks for that! I must be hanging out with too many old farts.lol
I just rode in the GAC and In the last 10 days and went to 25 dealers. Everyone had a full showroom.
My local dealership was built during the mid 90's boom.They catered to buyers that, for the most part, now make up a small percentage of their customers. The guy that buys a bike, a couple of grand in accessories and a grand worth of clothing are few and far between but they still have the overhead that was justified by those customers. I think they'll just keep downsizing until they find a level that will work. Harley used to have one of the best marketing departments in the world, I hope they still do because they're going to need it.
Yes, the overhead at those dealerships must be staggering. The mega dealer near me is open 7 days a week and has dozens of staffers at any given time.
Harley's marketing department is struggling to convey a consistent message.
I think you are correct. To make matters worse, those dealerships are trying to scam every customer they can. Last K service done at a dealership, the tech comes out and says "your clutch is trashed." Clutch was fine and still is 20K later. Reported it to Milwaukee. No response...Fuck HD!
@@Intheemorning Unfortunately most of these "tech" (whatever happened to the "mechanics" are poorly trained at best. At worst the service departments are deliberately trying to scam people.
The last time I had an oil change done at a HD dealership that got oil all over the engine when they replaced the filter. They tried to tell me that it was normal. I made them clean it all up before taking the bike home.
It is very simple. DO NOT BUY ANYTHING FROM HARLEY DAVIDSON. This company needs a very very very harsh wake up call and the paybacks for what they have done will be devastating and should be.
Younger riders can’t afford a new Harley here in Australia. A StreetBob starts at $28k and a StreetGlide starts at $44k. Most people have a bike as a second vehicle behind a car and no youngsters can afford both. It really is just a rich old man bike here.
Thank you for your comments. It sounds like that situation is becoming pretty common now just about everyone. More and more people in the U.S. seem to be done buying new Harleys and will stick with their old EVOs or Twin Cams.
I'm 68 and have had my license for 52 years. I just bought my first Harley 120 anniversary Tri-Glide for $48000 out the door. The quality is now where as good as my 2002 American-made Honda Goldwing that I still own. I found that the dealer is much worst also.
Enjoy your new Triglide! It is unfortunate that you didn't have a better dealership experience but that is becoming the norm it seems.
Sad but true every time im in my local HD theres never a person under 40 there
I agree with you times are changing Sears JC Penny are gone . The price of these new Harleys , more than an average car .Its not every day transportation . You got to give Harley a lot of credit , they had a good long run , more then other bike companies .
True. They will be back in some fashion after someone buys what is left and changes things up.
Cam Am Ryker seems to be the new thing for younger riders. I'm seeing more of them now. My daughter wants one so...
As always, great content and I agree with you 100% with everything you said.😎
Much appreciated, thank you!✌👍
I think you make a good point and sadly I think you are correct. Someone may buy them out but for better or worse that would likely be the end of HD as we know them.
Thank you. I was trying to think who would be a good company to buy them out because I think that is where things are headed.
Sad but true just like everything else in this upside down world.
The last three bikes I have bought were Indians. (I am 42, btw). I have tried to by an HD for the past seven years, but the dealership experience was so poor. I'd rather take a beating than shop a deal with HD. With Indian, the MSRP is what you pay. No added "market adjustment" like with HD.
Walking into a Harley dealership reminds me of walking into an Abercrombie and Fitch.
Your experience mirrors mine, except for the smaller Mom and Pop dealerships which I have found to be the opposite of these shady Mega dealers. Of course Indian makes great bikes so it sounds like you have solved your problem with the Harley dealers!
Another beaut vid. Problem is that they tried the Street line and no success.
I think styling was bad and didn't help...think Virago 250 looks like a cruiser.
I agree they need an entry level sub $10k bike.
Younger guys here in Australia buy used 883s, Enfields and like that.
Thanks very much! Yes, those 883s and Enfields have a lot more character in my opinon.
I'm sad to say I completely agree. With what is coming in the economy, this could be the death knell. I'm not a Harley fan personally but I want them to succeed so that we have choices and would hate to see such a historied company go away. Fingers crossed they figure this out.
I agree. I think the key will be what happens in the economy in the next 18 months, but things are not looking too good there.
30 thousand for a motorcycle might have something to do with it too.
True enough!
The Biggest Problem that I see is how much overhead the HD Dealerships have.. When sales go down they will have a hard time paying their overhead.
Yes, those big dealerships have a very high overhead. Most are open 7 days a week too.
@@cycletron I rode with the Adam Sandoval Convoy for three days .. I can't believe how many people were paying $45.00 for HD T-shirts..
@@mikeskidmore6754 Yes, and they were all made overseas in places like Vietnam or China.
yes, it took me a life time to save up the cash to buy my new Soft Tail Standard, the only one I could afford because I refuse to finance(usury,no thanks). Goog points, Thanks.
That is the way to go for sure. Thank you!
I'm a 52 year old rider...and I've had 7 Harleys plus many Jap bikes in the beginning of my riding ....but I like the idea of a smaller entry level bike...for like 5k to 7k...let's not forget Harley partnered with the Italians back in the day for a smaller CC bike...so the gatekeepers need to take a break and let the smaller bikes come in to the fold....and then new riders will come...just my 2 cents
Yes, those Italian machines are a great example of what HD could be doing now. Thanks for your comments.
HD is never ever going to make a viable electric motorcycle.
Well if the Del Mar doesn't see well in the next 12 months they will be toast on their EV play.
HD just needs to keep the bikes running on gas only. electric is not the way to go for any vehicles.all cars and bikes need gas
Always enjoy hearing your perspective on things like this. The one thing that they are doing right is the bikes. At least from my experience the new bikes have been nothing but great outta the box. Still don’t own one though🤷♂️
Hi Dave. I agree. My 2018 and 2019 Street Glide Specials were both great bikes with no reliability issues at all. If I were in the market for a new Harley, I would go for the Low Rider S. Thanks for checking out the video!👍✌
Another problem H-D has is debt default. They cannot repossess bikes in default. Dealers & H-D go on the hook with loans then buyers default and they cannot get the bikes back.
Yes, and it is a growing problem for HD and their dealers. How could they not see this coming when so many dealers are selling bikes so far over MSRP. That makes people owe more money on their bikes than they're worth for pretty much the whole time the owe money on the bike.
Wait why can't they get the bikes back, can't they repo them?
@@Stevel_ two challenges: first lack of repo companies who will take on a MC job; second, bikes are usually kept in a garage or covered up.
@@Stevel_ Apparently there aren't enough people in the repo game post covid and those that remain would rather repo a car or truck as it is much easier than trying to repo a motorcycle.
well they are all just now starting to see an up-tick in that auto loans credit union ect... i sure hope i am wrong but i see it getting a whole lot worse before it gets better and doing so soon
In my opinion, Harley may eventually go down again. I love Harley but 1. I haven’t seen any real advertisement on Harley really at all. 2. It’s almost not worth it to buy one new. And believe me I’ve been wanting a newer Harley for a while. Im not paying what I would pay for a truck for a motorcycle. Better off grabbing one from burkes repo outlet or the auction instead of heading to the dealership. 3. They all do the same thing. A newer softail does the same thing as my evo softail does, just ones older. They all do the same thing. Also in a rebuttal to where’s the new ones are faster, my answer to that is throw an s&s motor in and you’ll keep up with a st
Yes, I think HD is making it more and more attractive to stick with the older bikes!
I agree, Harley put greed before the customer and they will get their just deserts… and I have always been a fan of the FLHT Electraglide Standard, sad really.
Imagine a company refusing to sell what the customer wants, to grow the market. HD following the butt light/disney model. Way to go murica.
These companies are getting too arrogant for their own good.
100% 👆
Every company is saying by the year, way after I am dead or retired, we will stop making internal combustion engines. I don't know how much you have been paying attention to what new bikes are coming out. The Pan America and new Sportster models. I do believe in 2024 an entry level bike will be offered. I do see the Rev Max in a touring model to compete with the Challenger. Harley being a premium brand, buyers will tend to be older. In fact, if you look at the demographics of people who ride touring, adventure and high end bikes, you will see most are older, empty nesters with disposable income. Wife and I are 55 and empty nesters. I am retired, her semi-retired. We have 6 bikes, 3 are Harleys. Something neither of us could have afforded when supporting a family (both of us had prior lives apart) For 99% of motorcycle owners, it is a luxury, when raising a family, a Harley is not an affordable luxury. If the whole family is into riding, going to be a stable of dirt bikes, quads or SideXSides
I agree with what you are saying there. If HD gets these entry level bikes back into dealerships they will be back on the right track as far as I am concerned.
I would Love to be able to buy a USA made bike or a bike from a US company anyway , i had big hopes for Indian with the Polaris connection making us a modern Adventure or dual sport bike but nothing yet , i do like the recent Adv bike HD came out with maybe a few smaller lighter more budget models of that would help them , the Adventure bike market (( and the lower priced bikes like 125-250ccs road going like the Honda Grom or Navi )) is the only class of bikes growing in market share is my understanding ??
Great point. Honda is always up for trying something different that what the others are doing. Look what they started with the Grom.
You better be able to sell ice cubes to Eskimos because I don't know anyone who wants a quiet Harley, EV
🤣🤣That's sounds about right.
There's nothing in their showroom in 2023 that I would touch. I'm done with them as far as brand new bikes go.
I think many others feel the same way. HD and their dealers have alienated a lot of folks.
I have to disagree, I live in Milwaukee. I see tons of young riders. More then I ever seen in the past.
Things no doubt vary around the country, but if Harley didn't have a lot of riders of all ages in a town like Milwaukee where they have been headquartered all these years they would really be in trouble!
I guess I’m thinking a lot more positively than you. I just bought a ‘23 Road glide Limited CVO ( #1227 )and paid a $1500 “premium” for some reason. It is said that the more you pay the happier you are. That’s me! This is my third Harley and am really loving it! I started with an ‘09 Ultra Classic then on to a ‘15 gold & black CVO Limited and now the “Anniversary! I believe the company will be here in 6 or 7 years to ply me with their “ new and improved” V Twin of 2030! There will still be lots of premium fuel to feed it and the “Climate Hoax” should be a thing of the past by then, my opinion! As far as the dealership, Mighty Peace Harley did a fine job getting me the bike and even “hiding” it from the public until I had an opportunity to “touch” it! It was a comfortable transaction and resulted in me and my bride riding it off into the sunset! Keep them coming, Harley Davidson! There are still lots of “fans” out here!
Thank you for your comments and enjoy your new bike! I do appreciate your optimism. I think HD needs to offer a least one fully liquid cooled touring bike like Indian has with the Challenger. I just think HD would be better off if they didn't make such a huge bet on electric motorcycles.
Harley Pros: Their Reliability and Style are leaps and bounds better than they have ever been.
Harley Cons: Super Expensive Bike for heavy underpowered machine especially compared to Indian Challenger and Honda Goldwings now.
Personal Hate: It’s actually not the price. As I have said before I would pay a premium if the customer service and quality was on par with the price. Add in the fact they really try and scam customers on finance deals and upcharges which is crazy to me.
Ultimately their books are not looking good. Will they fold? I am not sure but they will have some high winds and heavy seas ahead.
Thanks for your comments. I agree with you on each of your points. They are running out of time to "right this ship".
Pretty much agree with your analysis but don't know that I'd write them off so soon . . . maybe another several years if they tweak their operations sufficiently within the current operating model. I suspect that that model may itself be fundamentally reconsidered and redesigned when the writing on the wall actually flips to imminent demise and there's simply no other options left . . . when the Grim Reaper's hand is just above your shoulder and reality sets in.
That is a really good point. If they find themselves in a desperate struggle for survival they will have free rein to do anything they need to without having to worry about who they upset with the traditional customer base.
Usually when a company drops their interest rates, they raise their asking price to make up for lost interest. They know every trick in the book to get your money.
Great point.
Your so big on their demise ! They will be just fine ! They have endured through the good times & bad ! They will be around much longer than You Sir! 😂
I doubt it but we shall see!
I JUST SOLD MY HARLEY AND GLAD TO SEE IT GO. WAY OVERPRICED ON EVERYTHING YOU NEED ON THE BIKE. THEY TREAT YOU LIKE GARBAGE WHEN YOU WALK IN THE DEALERSHIP BECAUSE THE PEOPLE WORKING THEIR NOW ARE JUST ORDER TAKERS. I NOW ENJOY MY CORVETTE Z06 AND HARLEY DAYS ARE NUMBERED AS A COMPANY.
You can't go wrong with a Corvette!
Wokeness, electric bikes, carbon emissions, the need for water-cooling, inflation, economics, the stereotype Harley rider image, young person disinterest, and cheaper more capable motorcycles all conspire against Harley-Davidson. The HD name will survive, but some Indian or Chinese company may aquire brand rights.
I agree with you. Someone will come along and make something with the HD Brand, it is too valuable as a brand to completely go away.
i think that would be sadder than just watching them go BK , selling the brand out to China , fitting but a far worse fate than just ending in my opinion
they might actually have to make a product that is desirable on its own merits and not rely on 'nostalgia' alone ??
I rode recently from Vancouver Island to San Francisco and noticed a huge % of bikes touring were Harleys. It feels like well over 80% to me, but its likely lower (?). However, when you look closely and talk to the people riding them, a lot of those Harleys appear to be numerous years from brand new. From what I saw it seems there are a lot (a lot!) of Twin Cams riding around out there. So here is HD's niggling problem - the evos and twin cams are indefinitely "fixeable" at mom and pop workshops - and I saw an evo era Road King seemingly in great condition for sale here in BC yesterday for US $4000. So why buy a new HD? Just me, but no chance.
Wow that sounds like an awesome ride! I agree it seems many people are over the new Harley drama and will simply stick with their older machines and who could blame them.
@@cycletron along coastal 101 and 1 the whole way down, yes an absolutely amazing ride!
@@cycletron This....^^^^^^..... nothing I have seen from Harley in the last 6 or 7 years even appeals to me. Dropping the Dyna and putting the low rider, etc. on a Softail chassis was one of the worst moves they could have made, then s#!+-canning the evo Sporty last year. Stupid. I'll stick with the '97 883, and my '02 DYNA. The twinkie 88 that is in it plenty for me. The DYNAS of the past were "the working man's bike". Harley has lost their identity.
@@Kevin-ne3tl You make great points. Harley's true customer is Wall Street and not riders.
Question? Do 18-25 year olds drive Benzs, BMWs, Alfas, or any other luxury marquees in large enough numbers to justify a manufacturer to “cheapen” existing vehicles or create a money losing one to just get people in them? No, they start out in mass market vehicles and as time passes and they progress in their careers they move into nicer vehicles generally. Same is true of motorcycles. Harleys have never been the cheapest bikes. Just because some folks bought some old war surplus bikes and created a culture that doesn’t change the fact that Harley was selling new bikes, making money and building a brand. I was driving old GM cars when young but 30 years later with hard work and success I enjoy my Benz and Alfa. Let youngsters enjoy a CF Moto or metric bike of choice till the time comes when comfort and that Harley feeling becomes their goal and reality. Truth be told, if Harley or other premium brands try and cater to the masses no matter the cost then they lose the very essence of why people strive for them. Hmmm, maybe Trabant will come back and build bikes to appease the masses.
You are correct that Harley has ceded the lower end of the market (both in price and engine displacement) to everyone else, particularly in the last 3 years. However, there was a time when you could buy an 883 Sportser for not too much over the cost of a metric bike. Of course their cheapest Sportster will cost more than $15k out-the-door.
I think the new entry level bikes for Harley will be the LiveWire as I mentioned in the video.
Like you, I drove crappy cars when I was young and now have a lot of premium vehicles included my Boxster S. However, I can remember thinking when I was 20 years old that I would love to own a Porsche one day, I just didn't know whether it would happen. The difference is I don't think most 20 years olds are interested in having a Harley these days but that is just my impression.
@WindsurferHD Thanks very much, I appreciate you saying that!
woke Eletric CRAP, Is the last nail in the coffin for HD.
It is definitely costing them a ton of money when they can least afford it.
And just about ever other American manufacturer. Plus the middle class is taking a huge hit with inflation, and stock market losses. Ain’t Brandonomics great?
Well you do have a point: the average Harley Davidson customer will die -out, due to high age.
Exceptions of course do exist, but they are no more than that: the very few exceptions.
I've mentioned before the example of the British Steam Locomotive companies that were stubbornly holding on to manufacturing Steam Locomotives, while Diesel Locomotives already were available and the market share for Diesel locomotives grew immensely. So the British Steam locomotive scene died, because they were producing out-dated products. They died although they could not believe what actually happened at the time, they never saw it coming, because they were not ready to give up steam technology, because that was what they believed in. Do you see the ironic parallel here...?
If Harley Davidson keeps on producing fossil gas engines in their motorcycles, they'll die for several reasons:
1. The market share for motorcycling in general ( for all makes) has tremendously shrunk since young persons are no longer attracted to motorcycles.
2. Harley Davidson does everything except innovation, and they barely purchase anything innovative at all, while this is the era of innovation (technically and environmentally) Harley Davidson basically sells all old tech; outdated tech, obsolete tech, including their newest Pan Am and Sportster-S lineup. And when/if they keep on doing that....their fate will be the same as the dying British Steam Locomotive scene:
Selling old tech in a global new tech demanding environment is asking for active euthanasia...
Thanks Dutchy! I agree with you. HD's biggest problem is that they want it both ways: they want to keep selling the same type of bike to the same type of customer while stating that they no longer plan to sell bikes of that type in the near future. Of course it makes sense that they do this in context of being a publicly traded company, but it will lead to their demise shortly I think.
I'm one of those "aging out" riders. I've ridden Harleys for over 30 years, but no longer. Now that I'm retired, they are just too damn expensive and too heavy. The mega-dealer experience is awful. I liked it a lot better when the owners name WAS the dealership. Now they are all owned by corporations or big car dealerships, and have stupid names that don't even tell you what city they are in. Killer Creek, White Lightning, Mountain Creek, Thunder Mountain. It's all gibberish if you're from out of town. HD has definity lost the plot.
That is a great point. They name these dealerships after some theme which means nothing to people out of the area!
You buy a Harley and you spend and spend because they make a sud standard product. Becoming increasingly hard for some people to find that cash!! Yes they need to introduce the smaller bikes to get interest in younger riders.
Your ‘3 year lifespan’ prediction maybe music to Hero motocorp’s ears .. After all they’re world #1 or 2 in terms of motorcycle sales and cash rich to buy HD !
Indian motorcycle manufacturers have a bright future I think.
@@cycletron Nah they will be dead before HD. They are showing growth but when you start a 0 everything is growth. Last I checked they are not selling anymore Victory did, As far as HD going under I believe Buffet will bail them out again
@@cycletron Agree.. Enfield, Norton, BSA, Jawa, 48% of KTM (Bajaj), rumored purchase of Ducati (a few years ago, by Mahindra group) …
Well, the 120th bash appears to be a big success. Even with the RUclips "Woke Smoke" and Canadian real smoke, the venues are sold out and even the Foo Fighters, that RUclips claimed and cancelled anti-American band was sold out. (WISN News and The Business Journal). So there seems to be a disconnect between the RUclipsrs and the loyal HD fans or the loyal HD fans and HD management don't watch or don't care about RUclips, because the city is filled with bikes and I'm sure the Bud /HD beer cans are now collector items. Yes, the brand has major issues moving forward, but woke isn't one of them.
I figured they would have a good turn out as the concert tickets have been sold out for over a month. I think some people find that it is a much cheaper proposition to attend the HD Headquarters event then say going to Sturgis. I also saw a pretty steady stream of helmetless Harley riders head east into Wisconsin from Minnesota this past week so I figured many of them were going to Milwaukee. HD plans to make this an annual event. I think the group that said they were going to sell their Harley's or debadge their bikes is a small (yet vocal) customer segment.
@@cycletron Yes, I would go to Milwaukee just to see the museum and a HD golf cart, HD boat, HD snowmobile, wait, that sounds a lot like Polaris. Now I have my thinking cap on, a Great Lakes loop and a stop by an annual HD bash sounds like a bucket list trip.
@@geneclarke2205 When you previously mentioned that Great Lakes loop I thought it sounded like a good reason to go to Milwaukee. The weather (aside from the smoke) has been fantastic up here for the last several weeks. I am staying close to Rochester though for the next few months so maybe next year.
We reallly dont care my grand kids will ride old bikes and we will carry on the choppers 4Life Live 2 Ride
Get rid of the $6,500 dealer markups. That would help if they wanna sell bikes.
Yes, that would definitely be a good start. They have alienated so many people by overcharging for their bikes.
I got a 4 year 50K warranty on my Cadillac. Basic warranty. Then a powertrain warranty on top of that.
Harley Davidson gives you 2 years. Then you're done. If you're charging Cadillac prices, and they are, Harley Davidson better up the anti and up their game warranty wise.
Opening up at 10am, poor customer service, indifference by sales staff, lack of stock, and additional fees won't cut it.
But hey! Let's sell electric bikes with little range at premium prices! That will bring in paying customers....
I totally agree with you. HD is lost in the sauce when it comes to their electric play. I am posting a video about that very topic tomorrow morning. Also most of the HD dealers are horrid.
........ but as long as people keep growing older than 50, H-D are OK, and they know it.
True, but that is a much smaller number of people each year. The demographics just are not anywhere close to the number of Baby Boomers.
I have enough to buy a bagger. ..... but it won't be a Harley. Gold wing fuck Harley....I do have a dyna though
I still believe dealerships are the biggest problem. People WANT cars and motorcycles, but cringe at the buying process. If it were as simple as buying the vehicle at sticker price + taxes it wouldn’t be an issue, but dealers slap on thousands of dollars of bullshit fees on top of outrageous financing costs.
Yes, most of HD's dealers are a huge problem. I will only deal with the smaller, Mom and Pop type dealers at this point.
it is that simple , its up to you , well i dont buy Harleys and never have but its always been that simple for me otherwise , last several bikes were 2KTM's 1Husky 1Honda
This is the truth. I won't buy Harley for this reason... the dealers are literal assholes but can't answer anything about the bike...they are like people right off the streets. They want a.lung and kidney
There's always new people who turn 50 each year. By 2050 I'll be long dead. Hopefully, they'll have more charging stations for the future generations.
Good point. Making to 2050 would be a long shot for me too. I hope HD does well with this Del Mar.
Harley needs to go back to some more traditions. It always has been a mid range age group. Work on pleasing your traditional following and they will come.
iam 70 and ridin my harley
They need to design a full water jacket engine for their cruisers... I want reliability and longevity. These air cooled engines run too hot. With that said, they make the best looking cruisers in the world. Sumping is another problem that still exists. The electric bike is a joke. The high interest rates are highway robbery. I have top tier credit and they wanted to charge me 14+ %. I went to my credit union and got a very low interest rate. My two cents :-)
Thank you for your comments. You make great points that I happen to agree with. Indian has had their fully liquid cooled Challenger for 4 years already. I think the electric bikes are fun, I just wouldn't buy one and I certainly don't understand why HD has bet their future on electric motorcycles when the market form them is just so small.
I have no love for the mega HD dealers. If I ever buy another new Harley, which is doubtful, it would be from a Mom and Pop dealership.
@@cycletron the go kart I built my grandkids is fun... but it is only practical for ripping up and down the street. the HD CEO is an ESP woke leader who supports the all electric world. this electric motorcycle is being used for testing all aspects of the electric motorcycle market. they don't care if they lose money at this stage. it is an investment, which includes R&D from buyers and their warranty claims. and the battery only lasts 5 years before it is trash? good grief. now I expect my weed eater battery to go dead after so many charges. the cost to replace it is affordable. but after so many charges to my electric motorcycle, I do not want to know what the replacement cost is, assuming you can replace the batteries. all 4 of the HD dealerships within 60 miles of my house are all owned by investment companies. you got my curiosity up. I am going to research and find the nearest mom and pop shop. and there is the possibility that none exist. Indian is way ahead of the game. HD is trying to compete, but again, I think they have come up short with this new 121 engine. first off, we all know that it takes HD 3+ years to iron out the bugs in their new engine lines. second, it will be interesting to see whether this new engine design actually runs cooler than its previous M8 oil/air cooled engines. I assume these new 121 engines also have a fan assisted oil cooler. if so, then I am sure the new engine runs cooler. but can it run cool all the time or does stop and go traffic kill it as in previous year engines? HD does a lot of things right. but they could do better in other areas : - )
Within 10 years.
Time for HD to show the CEO & execs to the door, without the “golden parachute.” Go back to basics & seek out individuals that actually ride motorcycles in general & HD’s in particular.
I agree with you!
Harley is to stubborn
Keep the "potato" sound for the older riders who want to buy "tradition"
but come out with a new engine (like the challenger) to compete with Indian
I shouldn't have to buy a 30K bike and spend 5 to 8k to get it perform like the Indian
I agree. I don't know why they are taking so long to offer a higher performing, fully liquid cooled bike like the Challenger which came out 4 years ago!
You are missing the whole thing . The issue is price nobody wants a car payment for a bike. The same way there will always be a rocker that likes metal music we will always have real bikers. HD is disconnected from the real customer because they want to go woke. Not to mention the CEO is definitely not the right guy for the job he's a German and not a Harley guy.go woke go broke
You are right, their monthly payments are in the car payment range now. I agree that this CEO is not going to be good for HD long term and needs to go. I gave him the benefit of the doubt at first, but now I am definitely not a fan.
Lot's to unpack here. The cafe idea is interesting. The dealers in my area seem to be strategically in the wrong places to make cafe's work. Harley has done some smart moves with marketing Livewire. Separating the brand was a good idea. I think they have further to go with the marketing. Livewire solves a commuting motorcycle problem. Harley is largely a touring motorcycle company. The US doesn't seem to be a commuting motorcycle market. They need to get the prices and costs down, and take their electric products to the Asian market.
I think you have a great analysis of where their market challenges arise. I actually think HD's electric offering are top notch, they are just not something I am interested in but I am not interested in a Trike for that matter either. I hope the Del Mar does well. It should be a great commuter or a fun, around town second bike. The acceleration on these electric bikes are as quick, if not quicker, than most sport bikes available today.
@@cycletron the model I think that is interesting for the Asian commuter market is the one that a company called Gogoro seems to be tackling. Electric scooters, with a swappable battery infrastructure. Not financial stable yet, but really interesting approach to the electric commuter issues in a scooter dominated market.
@@willcasp Thank you. I will look into that company. I do agree with you that the Asian market has more viability than the U.S. for EV motorcycles.
Great info, but I am no expert, but I think the combustion engine could be designed to run on Hydrogen, that way, we all still get the power and noise. HD need to invest in R&D instead of this EV crap!
Great point! There was a time when there was talk of biofuels and hydrogen but now all we hear about is battery power and I don't know why that is. I think maybe people will go back to alternative fueled I.C.E. vehicles once they figure out that EV's can only be a small part of the transportation equation.
Naa, more hysteria from negative reporting. Just downsize to fit the market. I think the Bronx type street fighter would do well and the ear sport bikes sold at hd would do well. Always have the beautiful big bikes for sale as the end goal of the kiddie bikes.
Ebr bikes
My video struck you as hysterical?!😂😂 You cite the Bronx, and I get a lot of comments from people who think it would be a great bike. The problem is that HD in all of their corporate wisdom canceled production of that bike and you don't even hear a whisper about it from them these days.
True
With what the Federal government is willing to do, the shortcomings of HDs' current management will in all likelihood yield a federal bailout.
Yes, they may be able to get a bailout since they are pushing EV motorcycles.
i sure as hell hope not , it was wrong when they did it before and could be part of why their are in this position now never learning how to make a competitive product
The Del Mars range is 42 miles at 70mph. Utterly. Useless. EV will be the greatest red herring in the history of the automotive industry, Mark my words. They need an entry level model badly. 4-6k for young people and first time buyers. Royal Enfield is owning the segment right now.
I agree. I just did an 80 mile round trip on my Katana and at many points hit a speed over 70 mph. The battery on Del Mar would have run out on the same ride before I could make it home, as there were no chargers on my route.
And I agree that Harley should sell that 440X here but most people think they won't based on the comments I have received.
yup we are still decades away from the EV & electric motorcycle being a viable alternative for the average buyer , closer in auto than in bikes but a damn long ways off yet
@@justsomedude445 I would say that you are right about that. The EV market for motorcycles in particular is a very small slice of a very small pie compared to why most people ride.
@@cycletron they are a novelty item at best currently , i follow the "ZERO" electric motorcycle company LOVE the technology but anyone owning one probably has several other more practical bikes first is my bet
Harleys are no more expensive now than they were 40 years ago! I get tired of hearing how expensive they are! Have any of you bought a new pickup truck lately? Y’all must not leave mommy’s basement and go into town very often. A decent equipped Chevy pickup is $60,000. A new Harley has at least since I bought my first new one in 1983 about half the price of a new pickup.
The price of pickups has gotten out of control. Now dealers are finding that they have a glut of unsold trucks piling up at dealerships across the country.
The more woke they go the worst they will do.
Their so woke, they will be full electric by 2030, drinking kombucha with rainbow flags flapping in the breeze.
as usual we agree CJ on what Harleys should do, but they are NOT doing it !! Jochen Zeitz might have been good for Puma Sneakers, but he's Clueless what to do with Harley, he wants to turn it into Ferrari or Lamborghini limited very expense high end bikes. But like you said he's selling to seniors and that's short term at best, and Gen X was no where near the population boom of my generation the Boomers, so the numbers just get smaller. and those that think because Harleys is still here means they always will be ok, in many cases Harley was just Damn Lucky and that was it !! in the 1920's there were over 100 Motorcycle makers in the USA, by WWII only 2 remained Harley and Indian, but Harley almost went out of business in 1928, but by seer luck a Japanese internal combustion engine company was looking for help at the same time Harley was looking for a Work Around of the British Empires Tariffs in Europe and Asia, this Company was named Rikou and they SAVED Harley from going belly up by building licensed Harley's under the name Rikuo, and to this day they still work with that company Rikuo was bought out by Showa (yep that Showa) lol. Again after WWII Harley was like Indian in trouble, but they had somewhat modernized HD with the knuckle and panheads, where Indian was still making flathead like motors, but by the beginning of the shovelhead era Harley was in court for Bankruptcy when once again they were saved by AMF and AMF put a TON of money into Harley, and i'm convinced it was Harley that killed AMF, but before AMF died and went into history Harley Executives with the help of the US Government in loans and a Tariff on anything over 700cc's and AMF's Evolution Engine that they started. But As you spoke of Before HD needs to toss out the Germán fool and go back to where AMF started with bikes people can afford , if i ran Harley i'd dump the Livewire program as the car companies are finding no one wants electric, they don't sell. and frankly i'd bring back the Buell Name and make that my sport bike division and offer the Chinese CX and the India bikes as entry level and bring back the sprint name in a 600 and 750 cc at an AFFORDABLE PRICE and then lower the prices on the softails and rev max bikes, and standard baggers, then charge the big money on special limited bikes like the CVO's. I am one of the guys you speak of when you say i will NEVER buy another new Harley.....1 i'm in my mid 60's, and 2 they are out of my price range, it's sad that more and more dealers employees will never own a Harley because a dealers just don't pay enough. and your right speaking of the older riders, like i said i'm in my mid 60's and i'm a HOG member with Seacoast and Cocheco in NH and Members under 40 slim at best, most are 50 and older and same with the Big Harleyish Rallies the hot babes at Laconia in the 70's are Now in their 70's Now. OMG are you right on point with the Dealership Experience, Nothing but High Pressure Sales and insane interest rates and Management that doesn't care, thousands above MSRP even with a Glut of product, and more and group owners who own car dealerships and hire people that know nothing about bikes, and have 20 sales staff and 8 service dept staff, that's when you know you're at a crap dealer. when i started working dealerships they were family owned and the owner was always there to help a customer, Now a group owner sighting is like seeing a mover star and just as rare. OH !! and CJ Harley has a new deal that will chase off customers, many dealer had loyalty programs mine it's called MVP and by going to events and buying parts and motorclothes we earned higher discounts, WELL harley killed those dealer programs for their new harley membership program where you can also earn points, but not discounts but like 1000 points will warn you a dollar on your harley credit card, my local MVP was getting me 15% off anything in the dealer, Now Nope i'll have to spend 10s of thousands to get back 20 bucks, and frankly this may be my last year with HOG and the dealer will see me almost NEVER.
Thank you Bruce. I really appreciate your in depth comments and your extensive historical knowledge of HD! Their corporate decisions are producing a slow motion train wreck. Zeitz needs to go, but there are 9 others just like him on their board of directors. It will take new ownership after they go bankrupt to change direction in any meaningful way.✌️👍
@@cycletron my fear is someone like FORD or GM Buys them when they go belly up and they kill off the surviving mom and pop dealers, here in New England i think we only have a couple left and Harley is trying hard to push them out. i was part of that toward the end of my career i went to work for Hank at Easthampton HD and under pressure from the motor co he built a new fancy building in the town next door and it became Southampton HD, then Ed Lemco came and bought it from Hank and his wife, Lemco had a scheme where he would buy dealerships and sell them to past business owners on a buy here pay here basis , he bought 3 dealers up here, but didn't have a plan when Ed Lemco passed away and Southampton closed it's doors and now there is 1 dealer in all of western mass when there used to be 4, My last dealer was in Rhode Island and Mass, and owned by 2 brothers and they sold the mass store and the RI store i heard also now has a new owner. then Big Bore HD became minute man HD, and they got bought by a group and it's now battleship HD, miss it, i loved my customers and running a dealership, but these corporation dealers are AWFUL and they will be the demise of Harley, and all it would take is Polaris waking up and STOP Trying to be Harley, if they became totally independent in their thought and pricing they could put a nail in HD's Coffin, but right now they are nothing more than a cheap knock off of harley at the same high price.
but Ferrari's and Lamborghini's are actually cutting edge fast high performance cars , HD is the polar opposite of that , they have survived on "Nostalgia" and promoting the cool "image" , well in my opinion , instead of developing new products or staying up on modern tech and performance , sorry but to me they sell pieces of jewelry more than motorcycles
@@brucesantacory1390 Thank you Bruce. I agree, HD with these mega corporate dealerships are a growing problem. As you point out, Indian needs lo lose their inferiority complex. The Challenger and Pursuit names just reinforce the idea that they are up and comers compared to Harley Davidson.
Nope. Too big to fail. There is an entire world out there living in the 2030s with electric this and electric that all wireless everything glued to their phones making 250k a year living downtown Seattle, etc. They will grow up and want to see the world on an electric 2 wheel campermobile. Harley will cater to them.
I have to admit that I love my electric weed whacker that I bought when the 2 stroke one went belly up! Plus you can't find anyone to work on 2 strokes anymore. I could see that with I.C.E. vehicles at some point where there is nobody left who can still work on them.
The metal used and tech in the bikes they have built are so over priced. Just a massive suck fest.
I am going with INDIAN
Me first!
Instead of Harley-Davidson, can you just say the "American big V-twin touring" bikes have a limited future. That would put Indian in the same boat with HD. These are Boomer generation bikes and as the Boomers hang up their riding gear, so too will HD and Indian and bikes like the BMW R18 touring models. If this is in fact the case, then the LiveWire investment makes sense for the next generation less interested in touring and more focused on urban riding and mobility. BMW's CE02 and CE04 EV's appear to be targeting this hip urban market and the Del Mar seems to fit into this urban lifestyle. So HD's strategy is to suck all the cash from the boomers and then as next generation inherits billions of dollars from their parents, they can spend it on urban bikes and maybe an entirely new 2 and 3 wheel lifestyle. I mean who would have thought that e-bikes would now outsell peddle bikes or kids would run me over with e-scooters and e-skateboards or a pink e-Barbie car. And, on my Vets Ride Saturday, that Can-Am's and Slingshots are now so common that the Harley hard core no longer makes fun. So the question is what will HD look like on their 150th?
The Del Mar is what Harley should have come out with at the beginning. It actually could be a viable bike for the urban rider who wants a quiet commuter with little to no maintenance needs.
I didn't even think about all the money these younger generations will be inheriting from the Boomers. Must be nice! I never inherited anything except some firearms which is fine since I wasn't expecting anything.
@@cycletron Newsweek said; "Millennials are expected to hold five times as much wealth as they do today by 2030, when they're estimated to inherit over $68 trillion from boomers." The problem is boomers are savers and millennials are spenders and, generally, lack an understanding of budgeting and the value of money. The article goes on to say the majority didn't know their credit scores or how to calculate loan interest. They have a buy-now-pay-later attitude. Experiences were high on their spending list, like a Taylor Swift concert ticket over budgeting for next months rent. 2050 may turn out to be a train wreck.
@@geneclarke2205 I wish the Millennials well. I am going to need them to support the economy when I retire! If they are going to inherit this much money after living like there's no tomorrow, they may turn out to much smarter and wiser than me.
electric cars and bikes are still such a super small tiny niche of the market though , what class of bikes have been gaining in market share ?? my understanding is only the Adventure/dual sport class and the small entry bike class like the Honda Grom or Navi , the rest have been shrinking for a decade , no ??
we are a long ways away from an electric bike being a viable option for enough buyers to even recoup the investment into making it
Best way to kill the company is to go all electric I will not buy a bike nor will I ride a bike or car for that matter that I have to plug in and to go buy a new one is so expensive the very people that made them what they are can't afford to even look at new ones so if they want to kill the Harley-Davidson brand all they have to do is make em all electric you said all the older riders will die out and they will just focus on new and young riders well we are still here and we sill don't like the electric crap and by the way almost all the new and young riders I know ( and that's a lot ) still want old school bikes not the new crap they are pushing out !!!
Thanks for your comments. That tells me there still would have been a good market for the traditional Sportsters that they killed off to replace them with liquid-cooled versions.
I've heard Harley's going out of business for the last fifty years I've been riding them get a life
Sure buddy.
great analogy of current market statistics and on topic come back
@@cycletron LoL hd fanbois are consistent anyway
@@justsomedude445 I seem to trigger them.
@@cycletron because any criticism of hd and some go straight ad hominem not even listening to the actual words you said ...is funny , criticize MY FAV brand and ill respond to tell you just how butthurt i am dammit LoL