I love Ana. She came to speak at my medical center about 8 years ago brought such fresh and meaningful perspectives on addiction and the human condition. She continues to be a gift to our nutty world!!
Don’t forget that simply seeking our goals stimulates dopamine production. It’s hypothesized that more dopamine is experienced during seeking than after obtaining the goal. I don’t have a source citation atm, but I learned this in several of my psychology and neuroscience courses.
I remember the original series Star Trek where Spock mentions to the rival who successfully wins Spock's mate something like "you may find the seeking is more pleasurable than the having".🖖
Loved this so much. I'm a psychotherapist and follow all of the techniques and skills she uses with myself and my clients. She is so on point and has her finger on the pulse of what's happening with humans at this point in our evolution. So glad to have you share this on such a large platform. I am only one person and I can only have so many clients...but this is information people really need to hear and apply to their lives.
Agreed! The part about making human connections reminded me of Simon Sinek’s “the millennial question” where he says that many young people today don’t necessarily experience the awkwardness of initial conversations or asking someone out in person - they can just “swipe right”. ruclips.net/video/vudaAYx2IcE/видео.html
Now, after listening to this Dr, I understand why many things I've never understood people's fascination with, such as their phones, accumulation of "stuff,", and sports, as actually being addictive.
I have worked within the field of addictions as a psychotherapist for a number of years and I hear the word “bored” A LOT. This is a big part that keeps folks hooked in (because of the body reducing it’s dopamine production as discussed in this episode). Relapse is a big part of the addiction process.
yeah I'm a formerly active addict, I've been good for 7 years now with only a brief 2 month relapse in year 2 following a broken bone, that I caught and stopped before it got out of hand. What she said about the balance being more towards the side of pain rather than pleasure is so true, and that boredom that you cite is something that I definitely used to say alot, and now I'm hearing out of the only friend I still have that is fighting with it still, the other ones I either cut off , or they died. The thing that got me to change was to be honest with myself and to stop the cycle of negative self talk, it's a learned behavior that is probably the hardest thing to break. I still have addictive tendencies but towards way less harmful things. I made this comparison about phone addiction being almost as harmful as drug addiction and got laughed at just recently, so strange that there have all the sudden been all these articles and videos popping up confirming what I already believed to be true. We're in a really precarious situation as a collective and this phone addiction is a real problem because no one can fathom getting rid of their phone. I'm in computer programming so I'm always at a desk on the internet, I dont stare at my phone but I do compulsively go to youtube, and through other things. This cycle is so paralyzing, and such a contributor to the learned helplessness of so many people these days. That's one thing I realized in my last run through rehab is that I was a prisoner of my own mind and my own negative thoughts, and having this constant access to information and a social engineering operation thats designed to command your attention and act on your lower human impulses, it's really contributing to the incompetence in society. One can only control themselves too, addiction isnt a problem anyone can fix except for the addict themselves I truly believe after fighting addiction for 12 years. And addicts infamously never believe they have a problem until something terrible has happened, so buckle up for the future imo.
Jon - I needed this show now. Today. The topic is personal to me and the first 15 minutes of the talk is profound. Loved it. Thanks for this interview.
I hate the fact I have to carry a cell phone everywhere. I’ve always hated the phone. Society is set up so you have to carry that phone. I have to have it to log into my computer at work, check my bank account, etc. People freak out when they find out I left my phone at home and how dangerous it is. I figured I lived without it for 40 years, what’s another day or so.
This should be essential viewing! What an absolutely enlightening episode! It helps so much to know how we are being physiologically manipulated! Thanks Ana and Jon :)
This was such an interesting conversation. I do wonder about the pain/pleasure balance for chronic pain sufferers, as she speaks from the point of addiction and the 'gremlins' forcing balance on the pain side, but I'm not sure that is the experience of folks who are not addicted, but are dependent on medications or interventions to reduce pain. It just seems like the 'gremlin' analogy doesn't quite fit with the opposite form of unbalance, where they would similarly enforce equal and opposite pleasure. 🤷🏻♀️ I'd also like to propose a few interviews I'd love to see: Tricia Hersey of The Nap Ministry about her Rest as Resistance practice and Céline Samaan of The Slow Factory and her The Revolution is a School initiative and how social media both spreads and hampers their messages and efforts. And Imani Barbarin about how the chronic illness and disability community has created spaces for sharing information and building community on social media and how that has been especially vital since the pandemic started.
I agree with you. I’ve been dealing with a very painful post-viral syndrome similar to long Covid, for years now. I’m not addicted to pain medication, but the chronic 24/7 severe pain has absolutely caused anxiety and depression. I’m very open to the psychosocial aspects of chronic pain, but this isn’t it. Now they want to blame all chronic pain on mental issues. They want to find an easy answer.
"People are very suggestible." "Not me!" Looks down, and somehow I'm playing Scrabble via muscle memory on my phone :D But, seriously, I'm interested to know how I'm affected, as someone with reduced dopamine (aka ADHD). I know that I overuse my phone, and can dive into red wine just a little too readily, sometimes.
Interesting that after deactivating your Twitter account you cannot reactivate it after a month. Seems like Twitter intentionally picked that length of time.
What about other platforms like RUclips videos and podcasts? Do those fall in the same category as social media? Also is the dopamine release exclusive to phones or are iPads, laptops and computers the same? Thanks.
I think the book title is mis-quoted above. I could not find a book titled "Dopamine Addiction" by Dr. Lembke or any other author. What I did find is "Dopamine Nation" - Lembke, A. (2021) Dopamine nation: Finding balance in the age of indulgence. London, England: Headline Book Publishing. Is this the book you are discussing in this pod?
Jon, this was a very enlightening convo. Thank you. I got the sense though that you, like me, really can’t imagine a 30-day fast, and even a 24-hour fast seems difficult and stressful. But that is a sure sign that we indeed have a problem!😅😬 I need my phone 24/7 for work also…..
Loved her book. The mechanics of dopamine spike and withdrawal seem remarkably - and perhaps not coincidentally - similar to the vicious eating behavior cycle that leads to insulin resistance and its consequences.
Would love to see Megan Phelps Roper on Offline. The power of social media in her life and the discussion on free speech, feel she would be a great guest
I'm not sure I buy this we live in abundance argument. At 13:80, Dr. Anna Lembke states that even the poorest of the poor have even more disposable income than at any other time in history. Would really like to see those statistics and what underlies them. My guess is she is considering a two-income households and not considering long-term cost like education, childcare, and housing. Could be wrong, but I'm highly skeptical of that claim.
Also, working at something way past the pain is common. She must be talking about the rich or something. I don't have money to let someone else do something for me. So I get to do them myself. I can see the rich having these issues. Anyone with discretionary income of 25% more than everything they need to pay yearly might have this issue.
I have a bit issue with this. Text messaging is my phone. I don't like having to use a phone. I get forced into it from time to time. No home phone. How the hell did anyone contact me for a month?
@@arich20 Amen. This interview was so incredibly tone‐deaf that her audacity in connecting severe depression to smartphones & not the VAST unachievability of basic needs being met made me feel ill.
I just accept it as part of life now. It’s going to cause too much stress trying to fight smartphone use. It is what it is. If you work a job that requires you to focus for hours at a time you aren’t on your phone. The bottom line is don’t worry about smartphone addiction and just let it be and live your life around your smartphone it’s simple that way.
I think that the loss of meaning and lack of agency with the widespread trustworthy source of truth is more than enough reason for the increase in teen suicides and post Partum depression. Knowing that your progeny will have even less agency than you have is akin to raising a child in slavery. Thank you for highlighting this important issue.
I don't experience boredom; I guess I'm weird that way. But damn I've been addicted to (what I call) screen since I was a baby crawling up close to the B&W set.
She explains briefly at 1.50. Hormones and dopamine are both signaling molecules however. Hormones are coming from the endocrine system whilst dopamine is in the brain (neurotransmitters)
She explained it as transmission and reception, so I'm thinking that it is kind of both. There is also the way drugs fit into those pain/pleasure receptors, and/or disrupt the transmitters that lends me to believe it is both, so doubly insidious.
25:45 there is some herd safety here being worth the cost. If your an artist and have to appeal to the aesthetic of people increasingly bored with everything; how do you engage? Also like you almost have to live in that addicted world then to produce apt work. Like warming yourself with, breathing in, bus exhaust (commuting on bike) so you dont freeze to death.
So....if your body/brain has the balance-gremlins when you have too much pleasure, why is it when I have lots of pain they don't offset it and give me pleasure? EDITED: Ah, she does mention this at the end that "mild-to-moderate" pain can help push up your dopamine. Being in extreme pain all the time doesn't work.
Thanks for this presentation. Having dealt with many individuals who are using substances: most are healthy & happy & not depressed. Individuals who abuse substances may have decreased dopamine levels. However, there is more to substances use/abuse than only dopamine. Disagree with her opinions. Fortunately, she admits this are correlations not causation
The Great Budda spoke the four noble truths: 1) Life is suffering. 2) The cause of suffering is craving. 3) The end of craving is the end of suffering. 4) Opioids, social media, and smartphones are bliss. Correction, there is a path that leads away from craving and suffering.
What an incredible load. This is one very narrow view of what people experience in "wealthy" nations and who suffers from depression. I cannot believe she would try to expand this dopamine theory as some panacea diagnosis for all people in the developed world.
The richest countries are not the most unhappy (those are Afghanistan, Rwanda, Zimbabwe, Lesotho, Malawi, Haiti). Her basic assumption underlying her main point is wrong.
I watched a guy in white Wellies in an Eastern European country wash a large area rug for 45 minutes. Do I have a problem? My new addiction is 90 Day Fiance. Yikes!
I'm touched by the authenticity in this content. A book with parallel subjects guided a new path in my life. "A Life Unplugged: Reclaiming Reality in a Digital Age" by Theodore Blaze
my problem is i put it in airplane mode and forget to take it off for days. Plus half the time i don't remember where i put it. As for my tab. its for reading. My think is the computer itself.
The only thing in her perspective that irks me is lumping in games like League of Legends with the FAR more egregious examples of addictive online gaming. Plenty of games promote the social aspects that are so necessary to human flourishing (which she goes into right after dunking on LoL). Finding a steady gaming group online can be one of the best ways to find connection and meaning in an otherwise isolating environment. I've made lifelong friendships (and lost some) over shared online gaming experiences. This obviously isn't possible through Candy Crush, but even finding a steady team or couple of players to group queue with makes all the difference in fulfilling that social need.
While watching this fantastic interview (thanks so much for this series) an ad came up, ‘It’s time to feel the flutter of excitement again with XXXXXX casinos!’ Possibly the wrong podcast to show that advert in. Fortunately, after a horrifying incident in my childhood when I spent all my holiday money in an arcade (in hindsight, possibly the best 50p I ever spent,) I have zero interest in gambling.
@@Weemadaggie I know RUclips plays those ads in all the videos I watch. It just seemed particularly ironic to play one in the middle of this podcast considering the subject.
Dr. Lembke approved the title before it was published. Her name is in the very beginning of the description. You didn’t even put her name in your comment. Pretty disrespectful.
Thank you miss you are so right games and all these phones are contacting people that are grown man that and making them disappear and molesting them and selling them the other thing is whenever you got it kid I'm going to leave home I'm going to tell you I'm going to die because I can't have my phone or my game gamers that's a serious problem
Maybe she didn't have to strive for anything, but that isn't a shared experience. Anyone who has been born into poverty has had to strive just to get enough to eat. Obviously a wealthy person out of touch with the real world
Agreed!!! She's VERY out of touch with the FAR more accepted & thus far PROVEN factors causing chronic depression. Dopamine plays a part but that's not something she discovered. She's just pinning it on smartphones for a cash grab. Disgustingly tone‐deaf.
No, Anna, people aren't committing suicide because of too much YT. They're committing suicide because a LACK of access to basic necessities; affordable nutrient dense diets, affordable housing, affordable healthcare, broken community structure, a stifling debt based existence, and little hope in prospects with regard to climate change. John, hard pass on inviting these types of guests in the future. Belies some of your ignorance as well.
Re-commenting to shed light on this individual's shocking lack of consideration for socioeconomic factors with regard to depression and suicide. Incredibly tone deaf and dangerous to suggest anything about a society's mental health while disregarding these and another marginalization factors. 👎👎👎
What an incredibly simplistic view. Go to Iran and answer then why there is so much drug abuse. They have it so good there, right? How about considering that knowledge of the trajectory of, well, EVERYTHING is depressing. Furthermore, people with ADHD were bored before the internet and smart phones.
It is not lost on me how this lady is bad mouthing everything I like while the guy tells me to go get some blu moon beer. Oh and I'm seeing all this watching yootoob
I think pain is more important than most people realise. I read once that swimming in cold water has been shown to greatly improve mood/reduce anxiety. And there's a whole range of human behaviour that could be described as deliberately seeking out 'safe' pain - a huge variety of sports (especially extreme endurance sport or martial arts), very spicy food, tattoos/piercing, a massage that is 'painful', etc. I'd tentatively add horror films and roller coasters as causing psychological pain, which could have a similar effect. Is it just endorphins or does it have a long term benefit to mood regulating hormones? Personally I feel that having space for safe pain in my life (can't stress the safe part enough) has had a long term positive effect on my mental health. Hearing Dr Lembke talk about how/why the brain likes pain and pleasure to be in balance (at about 6 mins in) was reassuring, and clarified something to me.
Here are the top 10 happiest countries in 2022 and their score (out of 10), data from Gallup World Poll: Finland- 7.821 Denmark- 7.636 Iceland- 7.557 Switzerland- 7.512 Netherlands- 7.415 Luxembourg- 7.404 Sweden- 7.384 Norway- 7.365 Israel- 7.364 New Zealand- 7.200 What the fuck is she talking about? The countries in which basic needs and beyond are most adequately met are the happiest.
From NZ I am sorry to say we have one of the highest youth suicide rates. But that started before smartphones, even the internet so something else is going on in our culture. I am surprised to see us with the Nordic countries on a happiness poll.
I have a highly addictive, driven, ADHD hyperfocus mentality, and (fortunately) dexterity issues that made me run, not walk away from the smart phone. I am SO glad for that decision. That said, I am addicted to my laptop, lol.
Great show. I now need to buy the book. It was amazing to find out that the Doctor is in the same addiction boat as I am. I barely use my cell phone (80% landline) but I have my list of favorite podcasts, "news" and distractions on RUclips and I am regularly hitting the refresh button to see if any of my favorites have added a new post. If not, I'll watch whatever seems like the next best thing (those car cam videos aren't going to watch themselves). I appreciated all her recommendations although I sat here thinking "that can't possibly work for me". I'll watch this again later, and I will get the book.
I don't buy completely as she presented on her hypothisis about wealthy countries are the most miserable. It sounds a very American-centric view. There are wealthy countries that don't have the depression levels of the states do. But then I'm not an expert, so her conclusions have more weight than mine. I just like to see it tested against countries like the Norwegian countries. I do think we, as humans, need to have a task and struggle to feel fulfilled. I just don't think she is completely right on her permise.
I was getting that sense a lot too. But after having lived over here (Canada) for a decade (From Denmark) I have learned that absolutist language and thinking is very ingrained over here. She was talking about how even the "poorest" now have tons of disposable income. She clearly wasn't talking about a poor Chinese, Indian, African, South American etc family. Also any of her "we all do" -phrasings refers to trendlines observed by her and her access to research but are presented here as something everybody does. She is working on a somewhat narrow (relatively) topic of interest and there are a lot of echo-chamber-esque warning bells that are trying to ring when she speaks. On the other hand, she is a medical professional and her fields foundation is in brain and bio chemistry. In which somethings are just fact, Observable and provable. On the third(?) hand she is trying to promote a book sale too. TLDR: It's worth replacing the 'all's' the 'everybody's/everyone's', with words like 'many', 'trends', 'Here in the Western World' or 'In the US'. Take a breath before you chuck your phone down the toilet, maybe.
We actually have to fight for a lot, even in our developed environments. If we give up the struggle, there can be dire consequences. I really believe that, no matter where/when one grows up, fighting the right fight is the secret of happiness, regardless of dopamine
Such a great interview. Thank you! So much of what she explained makes sense. And somehow I simultaneously felt worse and better about my family’s screen time.🤣
wow.... here I am, sitting here, minding my own business, surrounded by 6 screens within 3 feet of me, AND playing League of Legends. Enjoying the content and then BAM called me right the fuck out lmao. Had a really good laugh.
Fun is not bad thing, its creative fo mind, but it shouldn't define you and your values, and other interests. Alos listening Opera is a pleasure for ears.
As long as it comes with greater (hopefully positive) familial and sociaital interaction, but it also places you outside of the "loop" where people are always talking about whatever is the current media blitz darling of the day.
I love Ana. She came to speak at my medical center about 8 years ago brought such fresh and meaningful perspectives on addiction and the human condition. She continues to be a gift to our nutty world!!
In Canada?
@@sl4983 in San Mateo, California.
Don’t forget that simply seeking our goals stimulates dopamine production. It’s hypothesized that more dopamine is experienced during seeking than after obtaining the goal. I don’t have a source citation atm, but I learned this in several of my psychology and neuroscience courses.
She’s exactly right, our needs are so easily met that we have little need to engage those behaviors that kept us in mental homeostasis.
She answers my comment above exactly at 32:00!!!
I remember the original series Star Trek where Spock mentions to the rival who successfully wins Spock's mate something like "you may find the seeking is more pleasurable than the having".🖖
Loved this so much. I'm a psychotherapist and follow all of the techniques and skills she uses with myself and my clients. She is so on point and has her finger on the pulse of what's happening with humans at this point in our evolution. So glad to have you share this on such a large platform. I am only one person and I can only have so many clients...but this is information people really need to hear and apply to their lives.
Agreed! The part about making human connections reminded me of Simon Sinek’s “the millennial question” where he says that many young people today don’t necessarily experience the awkwardness of initial conversations or asking someone out in person - they can just “swipe right”. ruclips.net/video/vudaAYx2IcE/видео.html
Now, after listening to this Dr, I understand why many things I've never understood people's fascination with, such as their phones, accumulation of "stuff,", and sports, as actually being addictive.
Me: Wow, that's thought provoking. Also me: What's next on RUclips?
Absolutely addictive! I struggle with this addiction every day.
Appreciate this honest conversation so much! Thank you!
I have worked within the field of addictions as a psychotherapist for a number of years and I hear the word “bored” A LOT. This is a big part that keeps folks hooked in (because of the body reducing it’s dopamine production as discussed in this episode). Relapse is a big part of the addiction process.
yeah I'm a formerly active addict, I've been good for 7 years now with only a brief 2 month relapse in year 2 following a broken bone, that I caught and stopped before it got out of hand. What she said about the balance being more towards the side of pain rather than pleasure is so true, and that boredom that you cite is something that I definitely used to say alot, and now I'm hearing out of the only friend I still have that is fighting with it still, the other ones I either cut off , or they died.
The thing that got me to change was to be honest with myself and to stop the cycle of negative self talk, it's a learned behavior that is probably the hardest thing to break. I still have addictive tendencies but towards way less harmful things. I made this comparison about phone addiction being almost as harmful as drug addiction and got laughed at just recently, so strange that there have all the sudden been all these articles and videos popping up confirming what I already believed to be true.
We're in a really precarious situation as a collective and this phone addiction is a real problem because no one can fathom getting rid of their phone. I'm in computer programming so I'm always at a desk on the internet, I dont stare at my phone but I do compulsively go to youtube, and through other things. This cycle is so paralyzing, and such a contributor to the learned helplessness of so many people these days. That's one thing I realized in my last run through rehab is that I was a prisoner of my own mind and my own negative thoughts, and having this constant access to information and a social engineering operation thats designed to command your attention and act on your lower human impulses, it's really contributing to the incompetence in society.
One can only control themselves too, addiction isnt a problem anyone can fix except for the addict themselves I truly believe after fighting addiction for 12 years. And addicts infamously never believe they have a problem until something terrible has happened, so buckle up for the future imo.
@@agny369 Thanks for this. Very enlightening.
HELP! Crooked Media is contributing to my dopamine addiction. I see there's an episode...I tune in!
Jon - I needed this show now. Today. The topic is personal to me and the first 15 minutes of the talk is profound. Loved it. Thanks for this interview.
Ditto
Wow! I love her admissions about RUclips!! I have the exact same experience, the same guilty pleasure, and the same conflict in my mind.
Omfggggg 🤬
I hate the fact I have to carry a cell phone everywhere. I’ve always hated the phone. Society is set up so you have to carry that phone. I have to have it to log into my computer at work, check my bank account, etc. People freak out when they find out I left my phone at home and how dangerous it is. I figured I lived without it for 40 years, what’s another day or so.
She was really great. Kind of human who’s Good for the World.
This should be essential viewing!
What an absolutely enlightening episode! It helps so much to know how we are being physiologically manipulated!
Thanks Ana and Jon :)
This was such an interesting conversation. I do wonder about the pain/pleasure balance for chronic pain sufferers, as she speaks from the point of addiction and the 'gremlins' forcing balance on the pain side, but I'm not sure that is the experience of folks who are not addicted, but are dependent on medications or interventions to reduce pain. It just seems like the 'gremlin' analogy doesn't quite fit with the opposite form of unbalance, where they would similarly enforce equal and opposite pleasure. 🤷🏻♀️
I'd also like to propose a few interviews I'd love to see: Tricia Hersey of The Nap Ministry about her Rest as Resistance practice and Céline Samaan of The Slow Factory and her The Revolution is a School initiative and how social media both spreads and hampers their messages and efforts. And Imani Barbarin about how the chronic illness and disability community has created spaces for sharing information and building community on social media and how that has been especially vital since the pandemic started.
I agree with you.
I’ve been dealing with a very painful post-viral syndrome similar to long Covid, for years now. I’m not addicted to pain medication, but the chronic 24/7 severe pain has absolutely caused anxiety and depression. I’m very open to the psychosocial aspects of chronic pain, but this isn’t it. Now they want to blame all chronic pain on mental issues. They want to find an easy answer.
I feel like you should have done a poll on how many times we all looked at our phone during this episode.
"People are very suggestible."
"Not me!"
Looks down, and somehow I'm playing Scrabble via muscle memory on my phone :D
But, seriously, I'm interested to know how I'm affected, as someone with reduced dopamine (aka ADHD). I know that I overuse my phone, and can dive into red wine just a little too readily, sometimes.
Interesting that after deactivating your Twitter account you cannot reactivate it after a month. Seems like Twitter intentionally picked that length of time.
She’s super smart, kind and down to earth. Excellent.
What about other platforms like RUclips videos and podcasts? Do those fall in the same category as social media? Also is the dopamine release exclusive to phones or are iPads, laptops and computers the same? Thanks.
I think the book title is mis-quoted above. I could not find a book titled "Dopamine Addiction" by Dr. Lembke or any other author. What I did find is "Dopamine Nation" - Lembke, A. (2021) Dopamine nation: Finding balance in the age of indulgence. London, England: Headline Book Publishing. Is this the book you are discussing in this pod?
Jon, this was a very enlightening convo. Thank you. I got the sense though that you, like me, really can’t imagine a 30-day fast, and even a 24-hour fast seems difficult and stressful. But that is a sure sign that we indeed have a problem!😅😬 I need my phone 24/7 for work also…..
Maybe send the video to your boss?
@@shiny_x3 I’m my boss. 😬🤷🏻♀️ I guess I’m a shitty boss.
Im curious. What work is it you need your phone for?
Loved her book. The mechanics of dopamine spike and withdrawal seem remarkably - and perhaps not coincidentally - similar to the vicious eating behavior cycle that leads to insulin resistance and its consequences.
Would love to see Megan Phelps Roper on Offline. The power of social media in her life and the discussion on free speech, feel she would be a great guest
This was so very informative. Thank you
I'm not sure I buy this we live in abundance argument. At 13:80, Dr. Anna Lembke states that even the poorest of the poor have even more disposable income than at any other time in history. Would really like to see those statistics and what underlies them. My guess is she is considering a two-income households and not considering long-term cost like education, childcare, and housing. Could be wrong, but I'm highly skeptical of that claim.
Also, working at something way past the pain is common. She must be talking about the rich or something. I don't have money to let someone else do something for me. So I get to do them myself. I can see the rich having these issues. Anyone with discretionary income of 25% more than everything they need to pay yearly might have this issue.
Great interview and subject! Thanks so much
"The Hacking of the American Mind" by Robert Lustig is a great book on this.
also for the literati out there "Infinite Jest" by David Foster Wallace NEVER gets old in re the depressing nature of modern American life
Great, great, great talk!
I have a bit issue with this. Text messaging is my phone. I don't like having to use a phone. I get forced into it from time to time. No home phone. How the hell did anyone contact me for a month?
12:08 “We dont need to strive for anything and all of our survival needs are met.” What world does SHE live in?
Yeah this struck me as more than a little out of touch with the true levels of poverty in the country right now ....
@@arich20 Amen. This interview was so incredibly tone‐deaf that her audacity in connecting severe depression to smartphones & not the VAST unachievability of basic needs being met made me feel ill.
I just accept it as part of life now. It’s going to cause too much stress trying to fight smartphone use. It is what it is. If you work a job that requires you to focus for hours at a time you aren’t on your phone. The bottom line is don’t worry about smartphone addiction and just let it be and live your life around your smartphone it’s simple that way.
Wow, so good! Thank you both
This was BRILLIANT
I think that the loss of meaning and lack of agency with the widespread trustworthy source of truth is more than enough reason for the increase in teen suicides and post Partum depression. Knowing that your progeny will have even less agency than you have is akin to raising a child in slavery. Thank you for highlighting this important issue.
I don't experience boredom; I guess I'm weird that way. But damn I've been addicted to (what I call) screen since I was a baby crawling up close to the B&W set.
Such good questions and answers! Thank you!
Is dopamine a hormone? Or are they physical atoms or molecules that just transmit current?
She explains briefly at 1.50. Hormones and dopamine are both signaling molecules however. Hormones are coming from the endocrine system whilst dopamine is in the brain (neurotransmitters)
She explained it as transmission and reception, so I'm thinking that it is kind of both.
There is also the way drugs fit into those pain/pleasure receptors, and/or disrupt the transmitters that lends me to believe it is both, so doubly insidious.
Okay, I'm adding a new portmanteau word to me vocabulary - boredom + vortex = boredtex.
25:45 there is some herd safety here being worth the cost. If your an artist and have to appeal to the aesthetic of people increasingly bored with everything; how do you engage? Also like you almost have to live in that addicted world then to produce apt work. Like warming yourself with, breathing in, bus exhaust (commuting on bike) so you dont freeze to death.
So....if your body/brain has the balance-gremlins when you have too much pleasure, why is it when I have lots of pain they don't offset it and give me pleasure? EDITED: Ah, she does mention this at the end that "mild-to-moderate" pain can help push up your dopamine. Being in extreme pain all the time doesn't work.
Exercise, especially in nature, helps me to reset.
I don't use data on my phone. I limit my internet use to my house.
Thanks for this presentation.
Having dealt with many individuals who are using substances: most are healthy & happy & not depressed.
Individuals who abuse substances may have decreased dopamine levels.
However, there is more to substances use/abuse than only dopamine.
Disagree with her opinions. Fortunately, she admits this are correlations not causation
Holy crap how many products do you advertise
The Great Budda spoke the four noble truths: 1) Life is suffering. 2) The cause of suffering is craving. 3) The end of craving is the end of suffering. 4) Opioids, social media, and smartphones are bliss. Correction, there is a path that leads away from craving and suffering.
I think you posted the wrong book title. I believe her book is "Dopamine Nation: Finding Balance in the Age of Indulgence".
What an incredible load. This is one very narrow view of what people experience in "wealthy" nations and who suffers from depression. I cannot believe she would try to expand this dopamine theory as some panacea diagnosis for all people in the developed world.
Fun fact: We're feeding our addiction to media watching this video about how addictive it is.
The richest countries are not the most unhappy (those are Afghanistan, Rwanda, Zimbabwe, Lesotho, Malawi, Haiti). Her basic assumption underlying her main point is wrong.
I watched a guy in white Wellies in an Eastern European country wash a large area rug for 45 minutes. Do I have a problem? My new addiction is 90 Day Fiance. Yikes!
when did I last realize I need to put the phone down? when I watched this episode 😅
I'm touched by the authenticity in this content. A book with parallel subjects guided a new path in my life. "A Life Unplugged: Reclaiming Reality in a Digital Age" by Theodore Blaze
my problem is i put it in airplane mode and forget to take it off for days. Plus half the time i don't remember where i put it. As for my tab. its for reading. My think is the computer itself.
35:17 What constitutes addictive use of phone to her?
I used it to procrastinate big time
The only thing in her perspective that irks me is lumping in games like League of Legends with the FAR more egregious examples of addictive online gaming. Plenty of games promote the social aspects that are so necessary to human flourishing (which she goes into right after dunking on LoL). Finding a steady gaming group online can be one of the best ways to find connection and meaning in an otherwise isolating environment. I've made lifelong friendships (and lost some) over shared online gaming experiences. This obviously isn't possible through Candy Crush, but even finding a steady team or couple of players to group queue with makes all the difference in fulfilling that social need.
I wish people without chronic pain would stop speaking for people with pain.
Change the wrong description "Dopamine Nation" not "Dopamine Description" respect the interviewee
Waiting the phone part
Muy bueno!
I'm addicted to the doctor
Guilty of this lol
While watching this fantastic interview (thanks so much for this series) an ad came up, ‘It’s time to feel the flutter of excitement again with XXXXXX casinos!’ Possibly the wrong podcast to show that advert in. Fortunately, after a horrifying incident in my childhood when I spent all my holiday money in an arcade (in hindsight, possibly the best 50p I ever spent,) I have zero interest in gambling.
That's prolly youtube's doing. The pod won't have say in that.
@@Weemadaggie I know RUclips plays those ads in all the videos I watch. It just seemed particularly ironic to play one in the middle of this podcast considering the subject.
What about just listening? Anyrhing on youtube I just listen to...
After watching all the way through I think… ok, some interesting points, but how very simplistic. In a bad way.
The dumber the user, the more addicted to cell phones. Youyube addiction is almost the same.
You should at least put her name in the title next to her title... Pretty disrespectful to omit it and only say "psychiatrist"
Dr. Lembke approved the title before it was published. Her name is in the very beginning of the description. You didn’t even put her name in your comment. Pretty disrespectful.
@@Kangarooleathershoe.😂
Already mentioned at the begining
This is great but class is a factor that is not well accounted for. Who are the "we" here?
As I Watch this on my phone on the 🚽
Thank you miss you are so right games and all these phones are contacting people that are grown man that and making them disappear and molesting them and selling them the other thing is whenever you got it kid I'm going to leave home I'm going to tell you I'm going to die because I can't have my phone or my game gamers that's a serious problem
Id would love to see the internet and cell phones get disruptive for a day and watch everybody self destroy
Maybe she didn't have to strive for anything, but that isn't a shared experience. Anyone who has been born into poverty has had to strive just to get enough to eat. Obviously a wealthy person out of touch with the real world
Agreed!!! She's VERY out of touch with the FAR more accepted & thus far PROVEN factors causing chronic depression. Dopamine plays a part but that's not something she discovered. She's just pinning it on smartphones for a cash grab. Disgustingly tone‐deaf.
A Blue Moon ad in the middle of a podcast about addiction…yeesh
No, Anna, people aren't committing suicide because of too much YT. They're committing suicide because a LACK of access to basic necessities; affordable nutrient dense diets, affordable housing, affordable healthcare, broken community structure, a stifling debt based existence, and little hope in prospects with regard to climate change. John, hard pass on inviting these types of guests in the future. Belies some of your ignorance as well.
"La chasse au boucle d'emissaire" the hunt for a scapegoat or someone/thing to blame can be addictive
Hello RUclips my old friend.
Re-commenting to shed light on this individual's shocking lack of consideration for socioeconomic factors with regard to depression and suicide. Incredibly tone deaf and dangerous to suggest anything about a society's mental health while disregarding these and another marginalization factors. 👎👎👎
Which individual??
Dislike for a beer add
Last Century
25
more board than ever. umm what? no dismissed.
What an incredibly simplistic view. Go to Iran and answer then why there is so much drug abuse. They have it so good there, right? How about considering that knowledge of the trajectory of, well, EVERYTHING is depressing.
Furthermore, people with ADHD were bored before the internet and smart phones.
wait, are they giving rats cocaine? Hmmm
💙🥰💙
You should not be advertising BlueMoon, an alcoholic beverage, when talking about addiction. Otherwise, amazing episode.
Of course I saw this & thought, well, this doesn't apply to me. LIE.
Blue Moon sucks.
It is not lost on me how this lady is bad mouthing everything I like while the guy tells me to go get some blu moon beer. Oh and I'm seeing all this watching yootoob
I've found that the cheapest vacation is simply turning off your phone. Serenity now ...
A lot of good information. But...the poorest of the poor have disposable income? I don't think that's right.
I think pain is more important than most people realise. I read once that swimming in cold water has been shown to greatly improve mood/reduce anxiety. And there's a whole range of human behaviour that could be described as deliberately seeking out 'safe' pain - a huge variety of sports (especially extreme endurance sport or martial arts), very spicy food, tattoos/piercing, a massage that is 'painful', etc. I'd tentatively add horror films and roller coasters as causing psychological pain, which could have a similar effect. Is it just endorphins or does it have a long term benefit to mood regulating hormones? Personally I feel that having space for safe pain in my life (can't stress the safe part enough) has had a long term positive effect on my mental health. Hearing Dr Lembke talk about how/why the brain likes pain and pleasure to be in balance (at about 6 mins in) was reassuring, and clarified something to me.
Here are the top 10 happiest countries in 2022 and their score (out of 10), data from Gallup World Poll:
Finland- 7.821
Denmark- 7.636
Iceland- 7.557
Switzerland- 7.512
Netherlands- 7.415
Luxembourg- 7.404
Sweden- 7.384
Norway- 7.365
Israel- 7.364
New Zealand- 7.200
What the fuck is she talking about? The countries in which basic needs and beyond are most adequately met are the happiest.
From NZ I am sorry to say we have one of the highest youth suicide rates. But that started before smartphones, even the internet so something else is going on in our culture.
I am surprised to see us with the Nordic countries on a happiness poll.
I have a highly addictive, driven, ADHD hyperfocus mentality, and (fortunately) dexterity issues that made me run, not walk away from the smart phone. I am SO glad for that decision. That said, I am addicted to my laptop, lol.
Great show. I now need to buy the book. It was amazing to find out that the Doctor is in the same addiction boat as I am. I barely use my cell phone (80% landline) but I have my list of favorite podcasts, "news" and distractions on RUclips and I am regularly hitting the refresh button to see if any of my favorites have added a new post. If not, I'll watch whatever seems like the next best thing (those car cam videos aren't going to watch themselves). I appreciated all her recommendations although I sat here thinking "that can't possibly work for me". I'll watch this again later, and I will get the book.
Ditto everything you said!
3 of a kind
I don't buy completely as she presented on her hypothisis about wealthy countries are the most miserable. It sounds a very American-centric view. There are wealthy countries that don't have the depression levels of the states do. But then I'm not an expert, so her conclusions have more weight than mine. I just like to see it tested against countries like the Norwegian countries.
I do think we, as humans, need to have a task and struggle to feel fulfilled. I just don't think she is completely right on her permise.
I was getting that sense a lot too. But after having lived over here (Canada) for a decade (From Denmark) I have learned that absolutist language and thinking is very ingrained over here. She was talking about how even the "poorest" now have tons of disposable income. She clearly wasn't talking about a poor Chinese, Indian, African, South American etc family.
Also any of her "we all do" -phrasings refers to trendlines observed by her and her access to research but are presented here as something everybody does.
She is working on a somewhat narrow (relatively) topic of interest and there are a lot of echo-chamber-esque warning bells that are trying to ring when she speaks. On the other hand, she is a medical professional and her fields foundation is in brain and bio chemistry. In which somethings are just fact, Observable and provable.
On the third(?) hand she is trying to promote a book sale too.
TLDR: It's worth replacing the 'all's' the 'everybody's/everyone's', with words like 'many', 'trends', 'Here in the Western World' or 'In the US'. Take a breath before you chuck your phone down the toilet, maybe.
We actually have to fight for a lot, even in our developed environments. If we give up the struggle, there can be dire consequences. I really believe that, no matter where/when one grows up, fighting the right fight is the secret of happiness, regardless of dopamine
Such a great interview. Thank you! So much of what she explained makes sense. And somehow I simultaneously felt worse and better about my family’s screen time.🤣
wow.... here I am, sitting here, minding my own business, surrounded by 6 screens within 3 feet of me, AND playing League of Legends. Enjoying the content and then BAM called me right the fuck out lmao. Had a really good laugh.
Fun is not bad thing, its creative fo mind, but it shouldn't define you and your values, and other interests.
Alos listening Opera is a pleasure for ears.
Well Jon I think I love “Offline” the most now out of all the pods. Your questions and guest are great! Thank you!
So glad you're liking the show!
Wish i could have found her sooner!!!
Media fasting is a wise move.
As long as it comes with greater (hopefully positive) familial and sociaital interaction, but it also places you outside of the "loop" where people are always talking about whatever is the current media blitz darling of the day.