Many details From GC like the lacing being superb, a straight line going up, while the C&J’s looks faulty have concluded my decision. Thank you for the content, great video 👍🏽
Good for you. The reason many brands incline the lacing is so it appears straight with a v gap. I actually prefer that but it’s all a matter of choice.
That is the word going around but I can’t confirm that with anything but rumor. I will be picking up a pair of CJ Handgrade to compare. That would be closest the soles look nearly identical to my GG soles. Those are no longer made at CJ premises since they opened their own factory a few years back. Though that’s a rumor too. Who exactly makes which RTW shoes is kept quiet. Insiders know but they don’t always know when relationships change or important details like who the cobblers are working on which shoes. Eg my understanding was that GG used their own people at whatever factory they used to make sure quality was consistent from the time they started to moving to their own premises. No idea how that relates to the GC rtw line but it wouldn’t surprise me, given their quality if there isn’t something similar going on. CJ does a lot of private label shoes in addition to their own two significant lines. Grensen and Barker do too, but my impression, and I don’t own Grenson and love my Barker’s, is that CJ quality is next Level. Again just an impression, not even a well informed opinion.
How about a cost comparison? I've found the Cleaverlies to be generally more expensive and not really worth it . Additionally,. the Cleaverly shoes could very well have been made by Crocket & Jones.
These Cleverley shoes appear to be made by Alfred Sargent. CJ made Cleverley have CJ handgrade soles. They’re similar in price if get deals online. List price is usually about $200 USD more for Cleverley, which I think is worth it when it’s not made by CJ. Details and finishing is better.
They are both superb shoes... I'm a sucker for a quarter brogue though, and find these half/three quarter brogues/Adelaides a touch too much, especially heel caps... just can't get into those. The GC, probably made by C&J too has wonderful work on the sole and spade edge shape. I notice both have that graduated lace hole width, but both very different spacing. Leather on both looks delicious... especially good quality grained stuff.
I believe these GC are made by Sargent vs CJ. The CJ made ones have the same sole as the CJ Handgrade line, I don’t believe they build up waists at CJ. Folks much closer to this than me say that the 21 nails in two rows at the toe, that’s Sargent. At least that’s what I hear.
I agree the peak heel caps can be a bit much and if you’re used to non brogues a quarter can be just enough. Since I’m so casual in my dress these days I don’t really worry about it. But it’s all about what makes you comfortable.
I don’t have a hand grade so I compared with bench grade, which is still a step ahead of most shoemakers out there. I will update when my first hand grades arrive.
AS definitely made some fine shoes, their Handgrade line was only available at trunk shows was second to no brand. Can’t wait to see what transpires. Rumors are that Bill Sargent bought the factory and equipment during the liquidation and a big online retailer, which means Herring to me, bought the name. There is another rumor that GC bought the factory too. They said they bought A factory. I tend to think it was the Foster and Son factory, quite newer, now that they’ve downsized to bespoke only. This is just MY speculation. AS was pushing out a lot of shoes a week, but wasn’t focused on just the high end GC and exclusives. In interviews with Bill Sargent he said he wanted to refocus on the high end shoes. Fingers crossed. Check out shoe gazing. Some good info to Read the tea leaves yourself.
Great video! One extra thing to mention would be last/fit on your foot. Is one looser at the ball or heel? Does one accommodate a higher instep a bit better? Does one provide more arch support than the other? All the design and construction qualities don’t matter if the shoe doesn’t fit a person’s foot.
beautiful. The Chinese are coming though, brands like Clean Gentlemen or Triple Happiness, mot much those tiny little Chinese hands can't do with proper guidance, they just haven't fully mastered leather tanning yet but EVs are anything to go by.....
@@wishoeguyI’ve been researching the Adam. It seems that it may actually be constructed at the C&J factory using the same last as the Westborne, 348. GC does this with some of their shoes, as C&J has been known to farm out some of their factory to outside shoe companies… I believe Shipton & Heneage is another. Have you heard anything about this? My apologies if you actually mentioned it in the video but it’s interesting to note that they both use the same last…if it’s true. Though in that case, why would the sizing be different? Btw., I have two c&J’s on 348 m, the Hallam and the Drummond. I also discovered that 1/2 size down from regular fits better. A little tighter at first, but less space in the toe box. And 348 in my normal size 11 E UK, I found that I had nearly an inch and a half extra room beyond my big toe.
@joshuapowers8446 there is a version that’s CJ and another that’s Sargent. These are the latter. The 21 nails are the key. The CJ shoes have the exact hand grade soles as the CJ. Just the name is different. It’s incredibly common for rtw lines of bespoke makers to be farmed out. It’s less common that they use the lasts of the maker, but the leathers are a little different and the pattern may also vary a bit. I. This case the sole is considerably upgraded as well with a better fiddleback and painted sole.
@@wishoeguy thank you s much! I do hope the GC Adams in Pebblegrain come back in stock. Im a fan of your channel! Many-Thanks for sharing your expertise and enthusiasm ?
@@wishoeguy why I wanted meermin to follow through with the pic on their website showing nails. They said the older models of the Norvegese have the nails under the sole which was what I was sent. I was like well send me the new model then. That combined with a bad piece of leather on the heel block means im gonna need to exchange them.
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Excellent comparison of two very well crafted shoes. The pebble grain pattern on the GC is a masterpiece of texture.Thanks for the outstanding video!
Many details From GC like the lacing being superb, a straight line going up, while the C&J’s looks faulty have concluded my decision. Thank you for the content, great video 👍🏽
Good for you.
The reason many brands incline the lacing is so it appears straight with a v gap. I actually prefer that but it’s all a matter of choice.
Doesn’t CJ make the Cleverly rtw shoes? That would explain why they’re nearly the same.
That is the word going around but I can’t confirm that with anything but rumor. I will be picking up a pair of CJ Handgrade to compare. That would be closest the soles look nearly identical to my GG soles. Those are no longer made at CJ premises since they opened their own factory a few years back. Though that’s a rumor too. Who exactly makes which RTW shoes is kept quiet. Insiders know but they don’t always know when relationships change or important details like who the cobblers are working on which shoes. Eg my understanding was that GG used their own people at whatever factory they used to make sure quality was consistent from the time they started to moving to their own premises. No idea how that relates to the GC rtw line but it wouldn’t surprise me, given their quality if there isn’t something similar going on. CJ does a lot of private label shoes in addition to their own two significant lines. Grensen and Barker do too, but my impression, and I don’t own Grenson and love my Barker’s, is that CJ quality is next Level. Again just an impression, not even a well informed opinion.
@@wishoeguy I know for a fact C&J makes these Cleverley shoes ! Sometimes C&J sends you repairs in Cleverley boxes...
And the stitching in the middle of the heel cap is typical...
Haha. That’s the kind of proof that’s believable.
Thanks!
How about a cost comparison? I've found the Cleaverlies to be generally more expensive and not really worth it . Additionally,. the Cleaverly shoes could very well have been made by Crocket & Jones.
These Cleverley shoes appear to be made by Alfred Sargent. CJ made Cleverley have CJ handgrade soles.
They’re similar in price if get deals online. List price is usually about $200 USD more for Cleverley, which I think is worth it when it’s not made by CJ. Details and finishing is better.
First! Haha! I also own a GC shoe from the Rake I am planning to do a review video on.
The GC almost looks to have a spade sole...both lovely shoes‼️
(but...GC for the WIN)
They are both superb shoes... I'm a sucker for a quarter brogue though, and find these half/three quarter brogues/Adelaides a touch too much, especially heel caps... just can't get into those. The GC, probably made by C&J too has wonderful work on the sole and spade edge shape. I notice both have that graduated lace hole width, but both very different spacing. Leather on both looks delicious... especially good quality grained stuff.
I believe these GC are made by Sargent vs CJ. The CJ made ones have the same sole as the CJ Handgrade line, I don’t believe they build up waists at CJ. Folks much closer to this than me say that the 21 nails in two rows at the toe, that’s Sargent. At least that’s what I hear.
I agree the peak heel caps can be a bit much and if you’re used to non brogues a quarter can be just enough. Since I’m so casual in my dress these days I don’t really worry about it. But it’s all about what makes you comfortable.
It looks as though the comparison's been made with Crockett and Jones bench grade. Would it not be fairer, to do compare like for like?
I don’t have a hand grade so I compared with bench grade, which is still a step ahead of most shoemakers out there. I will update when my first hand grades arrive.
Do C&J not make both of these? I was sure I’d read that they make GC’s RTW collection...
They make some but you can always tell by the sole. CJ doesn’t do fiddleback, so any GC with fiddleback are AS.
@@wishoeguy I didn’t know that. I love the C&J make, I think you get a lot for your money. Do you know how AS compares? I’m guessing favourably...
AS definitely made some fine shoes, their Handgrade line was only available at trunk shows was second to no brand. Can’t wait to see what transpires. Rumors are that Bill Sargent bought the factory and equipment during the liquidation and a big online retailer, which means Herring to me, bought the name. There is another rumor that GC bought the factory too. They said they bought A factory. I tend to think it was the Foster and Son factory, quite newer, now that they’ve downsized to bespoke only. This is just MY speculation. AS was pushing out a lot of shoes a week, but wasn’t focused on just the high end GC and exclusives. In interviews with Bill Sargent he said he wanted to refocus on the high end shoes. Fingers crossed. Check out shoe gazing. Some good info to Read the tea leaves yourself.
@@wishoeguy that blog is new to me, I like it - thank you!
Great video! One extra thing to mention would be last/fit on your foot. Is one looser at the ball or heel? Does one accommodate a higher instep a bit better? Does one provide more arch support than the other? All the design and construction qualities don’t matter if the shoe doesn’t fit a person’s foot.
GC all the way...
Did he mentioned prices?
Prices are similar. Between 850 and 1000.
beautiful. The Chinese are coming though, brands like Clean Gentlemen or Triple Happiness, mot much those tiny little Chinese hands can't do with proper guidance, they just haven't fully mastered leather tanning yet but EVs are anything to go by.....
Do you own any Vass shoes?
Yes. I love my Vass pair.
@@wishoeguy Thank you! I am saving up for a pair.
There is a fantastic sale right now. Be sure to check it out they don’t happen often.
@@wishoeguy Thanks!
What size is each shoe? I’m assuming they are both the same UK size? Do they fit the same?
They’re not the same size. The CJ is a half size bigger. They fit about the same.
@@wishoeguyI’ve been researching the Adam. It seems that it may actually be constructed at the C&J factory using the same last as the Westborne, 348. GC does this with some of their shoes, as C&J has been known to farm out some of their factory to outside shoe companies… I believe Shipton & Heneage is another. Have you heard anything about this? My apologies if you actually mentioned it in the video but it’s interesting to note that they both use the same last…if it’s true. Though in that case, why would the sizing be different? Btw., I have two c&J’s on 348 m, the Hallam and the Drummond. I also discovered that 1/2 size down from regular fits better. A little tighter at first, but less space in the toe box. And 348 in my normal size 11 E UK, I found that I had nearly an inch and a half extra room beyond my big toe.
@joshuapowers8446 there is a version that’s CJ and another that’s Sargent. These are the latter. The 21 nails are the key. The CJ shoes have the exact hand grade soles as the CJ. Just the name is different. It’s incredibly common for rtw lines of bespoke makers to be farmed out. It’s less common that they use the lasts of the maker, but the leathers are a little different and the pattern may also vary a bit. I. This case the sole is considerably upgraded as well with a better fiddleback and painted sole.
@joshuapowers8446 I can’t e plain why sizing is different.
@@wishoeguy thank you s much! I do hope the GC Adams in Pebblegrain come back in stock. Im a fan of your channel! Many-Thanks for sharing your expertise and enthusiasm ?
Ok, I'll take second...
Haha. Very interesting video here. Next time you are gonna be 1st. Enjoy this one!
The GC is superior to the (very lovely and high quality) CJ.
The GC is usually made by crockett. But on a handgrade last 337. These are early models though and look to be Alfred sargents from the sole finishing
Thanks for sharing. I assume Crockery is CJ?
@@wishoeguy fixed ;)
:)
Does the nailwork in the toe do much to prevent early wear or is it mostly cosmetic?
It’s for wear. I’ve had pretty good luck with nails. Some say nails are better than toe plates.
@@wishoeguy why I wanted meermin to follow through with the pic on their website showing nails. They said the older models of the Norvegese have the nails under the sole which was what I was sent. I was like well send me the new model then. That combined with a bad piece of leather on the heel block means im gonna need to exchange them.
With that being said, my other two pair have turned out to be a great fit and are breaking in nicely and I am pleased with the quality.
Are there any differences in thickness of the sole and insole and upper leather?
The soles appear to be the same thickness and I haven’t torn either apart to measure insole but both feel thick for GYW shoes.
@@wishoeguy much appreciated , I think the Adam is more striking