Wow, as somebody who is trying to play all 20 of these, I can’t even begin to describe how helpful a video like this is. Particularly the bell and pitch spectrum analysis, that is the coolest thing i’ve ever seen. Thank you so much for your work.
This is fantastic. I've always wondered how he uses his modes and this starts illuminating it. As someone who has gone this deep in his music, can you HEAR the individual modes without analyzing them?
Very interesting video! I just want to share a nerdy thought, being a music theory enthusiast. Since I started transcribing the Turangalîla Symphonie (in Musescore), I have started to notice a way of harmonization that Messiaen frequently employs when harmonizing lyrical melodies (most notably in the ”Love theme” from the Turangalîla symphony). The method consists of alternating major #4 (lydian) chords with Dominant 13 omit 5 chords, the melody always being the #4 or the dominant 7 and also doubled in the bass, with all the other chord tones being placed inbetween (atleast in the case of Turangalîla). This creates, in my opinion, a mysterious yet very bright sound. It’s also straightforward enough that it’s easy to play around with yourself. At 19:12 in this video I noticed this technique again. I have been looking for anyone noticing the same thing in many different papers and documents analyzing the Turangalîla or Messian’s music in general, but I haven’t found anything. Maybe it is a bit too niche… Have you ever thought about this? Is there something more to it than just simply being chords drawn from the 3rd mode of limited transposition? That would’ve been too boring.
Thanks for this great analysis!! The thing that impresses me the most about Messiaen in general, is that, despite the complexity of his music (Indian rhythms, palindromes, modes of limited transposition, and even serialism), it feels very genuine and natural (anything but theoretical). Just for the record, would you consider analysing a very strange late work of Liszt: ruclips.net/video/G6euv34gd5o/видео.html ?
Thank you so much for this video Nick!! It's exactly what I've been searching for. Brilliantly researched and executed. Do you have any recommendations for books to read on Messiaen (if possible, this work in particular)? I can't get enough of the Vingt Regards at the moment!!!
Thanks! Messiaen is one of the Western canon's most transparent composers in terms of elucidating his own compositional processes. An obvious place to start would be his Technique de mon langage musical as well as his seven volume Traité de Rythme, de Couleur, et d'Ornithologie. Beyond that, there are several dissertations written on Vingt Regards by students of both music and theology. PM me if you'd like specifics.
@@NickBacchetto Thanks for responding! I'll definitely have to have a look at his Technique de mon langage musical. I don't know if you're a fan of Prokofievs but it would be fascinating to see an analysis of one of his war sonatas in a future video. I love them all (especially the 8th) but have no idea what's going on harmonically ahaha. All the best!
This may be the best RUclips video I've ever watched! I love Messiaen, I love Noel, and I love your analysis. It is interesting how Messiaen extended his rhythmic technique of added notes to the whole tone scales, adding notes to extend them just beyond their boundaries. All these tricks serve to make Messiaen always sound like Messiaen. I can't think of another composer who always sounds so much like himself and could never be mistaken for anyone else.
That bell pitch series decomposition was so cool! When you played it on the piano I could literally hear the bell's overtones in my head. I'd love to learn more about the pitch series's of other kinds of bells/objects. Also not to be that guy, but 1 is not a prime number ;D
Yes! Inharmonicity can be a fascinating topic. Jonathan Harvey's Mortous plango, vivos voco may be another interesting piece to listen to if you haven't already heard it. And I realize my commentary regarding the prime number rhythms was not clear-thanks for the correction ;)
Great video. Nothing on yourself, but I have to comment on 5:20 ; how wrong this is in my opinion. I've read Bartok's essays, and in reference to Bulgarian and Rumanian music he states something along the lines of 'asymmetrical rhythmic patterns are natural to these peasants; it goes to show the stupidity of european educators to think of the unfixed rhythm as a musicianship problem needing to be fixed' This has implications to the inverse of what Messaien says. Asymmetry is so radically Earthly that it is a natural phenomena among the spontaneous expression of primitive peoples. Of course, Messaien used this idea to create great music, so all the better for him; but in terms of ideas in general Bartok surpasses him-- at least in my opinion.
Great point. I think Messiaen would have been aware of this through his familiarity with Hindu rhythms (or what he attributed to the rhythms of Hindu music) and the rhythms of plainchant. It seems to me that Messiaen would sometimes give post hoc theological justifications for compositional techniques that he had implemented for no other reason than that his ear had a marked predilection for their sound.
@@NickBacchetto That makes sense. But still I would highlight the difference between something like plainchant or Hindu music-- both have religious connotations and are a form of 'art' music-- and the isolated peasant music Bartok would go out to collect and absorb. The latter contains a higher sense of naïvité and raw naturalism as opposed to the more spiritual side of the former. That could have influenced Messaien's description of the 'heveanly'; but I just think it is unfair to attribute this to the solely religious, when the so-called "Imperfect", earthly entities do the same thing, and this 'imperfect' spirit has also been used to great effect in the progressive art music of Stravinsky and Bartok. Of course, these are just trivialities; both artists used the ideas to create new effects and modes of expression in a dignified and un-gimmicky way. I should've made it clearer in my comment that I personally view Bartok as superior due to the vigorous, earthly and raw style he assimilated rather than the more esoteric, spiritual, heavenly aspect of Messaien's.
So glad to finally see some of the logic in one of my favorite 20th century scores !This is one of the most refulgent scores in all music . Messiaen chronomie and Turangilila,early preludes all unforgettable !
A rhythm is ended by what comes afterward. So if you have an 8th/dotted 8th/dotted 8th/8, you can only hear the rhythm when you play the note or rest after the pattern. Just playing the 4 notes amounts to only playing the attacks on the notes and neglecting the release of the final one. It is the time between the 3rd and 5th notes that defines the final rhythmic unit.
Wow, as somebody who is trying to play all 20 of these, I can’t even begin to describe how helpful a video like this is. Particularly the bell and pitch spectrum analysis, that is the coolest thing i’ve ever seen. Thank you so much for your work.
Bravo on committing to playing the set-they're very rewarding pieces to perform.
This is fantastic. I've always wondered how he uses his modes and this starts illuminating it. As someone who has gone this deep in his music, can you HEAR the individual modes without analyzing them?
Very interesting video! I just want to share a nerdy thought, being a music theory enthusiast.
Since I started transcribing the Turangalîla Symphonie (in Musescore), I have started to notice a way of harmonization that Messiaen frequently employs when harmonizing lyrical melodies (most notably in the ”Love theme” from the Turangalîla symphony). The method consists of alternating major #4 (lydian) chords with Dominant 13 omit 5 chords, the melody always being the #4 or the dominant 7 and also doubled in the bass, with all the other chord tones being placed inbetween (atleast in the case of Turangalîla). This creates, in my opinion, a mysterious yet very bright sound. It’s also straightforward enough that it’s easy to play around with yourself.
At 19:12 in this video I noticed this technique again. I have been looking for anyone noticing the same thing in many different papers and documents analyzing the Turangalîla or Messian’s music in general, but I haven’t found anything. Maybe it is a bit too niche… Have you ever thought about this? Is there something more to it than just simply being chords drawn from the 3rd mode of limited transposition? That would’ve been too boring.
Thanks for this great analysis!! The thing that impresses me the most about Messiaen in general, is that, despite the complexity of his music (Indian rhythms, palindromes, modes of limited transposition, and even serialism), it feels very genuine and natural (anything but theoretical).
Just for the record, would you consider analysing a very strange late work of Liszt: ruclips.net/video/G6euv34gd5o/видео.html ?
I definitely plan on covering some lesser-known late period Liszt. Thanks for the recommendation!
👏
Amazing video. Thank you for your work!
Thank you so much for this video Nick!! It's exactly what I've been searching for. Brilliantly researched and executed. Do you have any recommendations for books to read on Messiaen (if possible, this work in particular)? I can't get enough of the Vingt Regards at the moment!!!
Thanks! Messiaen is one of the Western canon's most transparent composers in terms of elucidating his own compositional processes. An obvious place to start would be his Technique de mon langage musical as well as his seven volume Traité de Rythme, de Couleur, et d'Ornithologie. Beyond that, there are several dissertations written on Vingt Regards by students of both music and theology. PM me if you'd like specifics.
@@NickBacchetto Thanks for responding! I'll definitely have to have a look at his Technique de mon langage musical. I don't know if you're a fan of Prokofievs but it would be fascinating to see an analysis of one of his war sonatas in a future video. I love them all (especially the 8th) but have no idea what's going on harmonically ahaha. All the best!
This may be the best RUclips video I've ever watched! I love Messiaen, I love Noel, and I love your analysis. It is interesting how Messiaen extended his rhythmic technique of added notes to the whole tone scales, adding notes to extend them just beyond their boundaries. All these tricks serve to make Messiaen always sound like Messiaen. I can't think of another composer who always sounds so much like himself and could never be mistaken for anyone else.
Hi, I’d love to know where you found that citation from Messiaen regarding the instrumental imitation. I can’t seem to find it online
You'll find a citation in Jennifer Donelson's dissertation on Vingt Regards: digitalcommons.unl.edu/dissertations/AAI3297755
That bell pitch series decomposition was so cool! When you played it on the piano I could literally hear the bell's overtones in my head. I'd love to learn more about the pitch series's of other kinds of bells/objects.
Also not to be that guy, but 1 is not a prime number ;D
Yes! Inharmonicity can be a fascinating topic. Jonathan Harvey's Mortous plango, vivos voco may be another interesting piece to listen to if you haven't already heard it.
And I realize my commentary regarding the prime number rhythms was not clear-thanks for the correction ;)
Amazing analysis. Thanks Nick!
Great video. Nothing on yourself, but I have to comment on 5:20 ; how wrong this is in my opinion. I've read Bartok's essays, and in reference to Bulgarian and Rumanian music he states something along the lines of 'asymmetrical rhythmic patterns are natural to these peasants; it goes to show the stupidity of european educators to think of the unfixed rhythm as a musicianship problem needing to be fixed'
This has implications to the inverse of what Messaien says. Asymmetry is so radically Earthly that it is a natural phenomena among the spontaneous expression of primitive peoples. Of course, Messaien used this idea to create great music, so all the better for him; but in terms of ideas in general Bartok surpasses him-- at least in my opinion.
Great point. I think Messiaen would have been aware of this through his familiarity with Hindu rhythms (or what he attributed to the rhythms of Hindu music) and the rhythms of plainchant. It seems to me that Messiaen would sometimes give post hoc theological justifications for compositional techniques that he had implemented for no other reason than that his ear had a marked predilection for their sound.
@@NickBacchetto That makes sense. But still I would highlight the difference between something like plainchant or Hindu music-- both have religious connotations and are a form of 'art' music-- and the isolated peasant music Bartok would go out to collect and absorb. The latter contains a higher sense of naïvité and raw naturalism as opposed to the more spiritual side of the former. That could have influenced Messaien's description of the 'heveanly'; but I just think it is unfair to attribute this to the solely religious, when the so-called "Imperfect", earthly entities do the same thing, and this 'imperfect' spirit has also been used to great effect in the progressive art music of Stravinsky and Bartok.
Of course, these are just trivialities; both artists used the ideas to create new effects and modes of expression in a dignified and un-gimmicky way. I should've made it clearer in my comment that I personally view Bartok as superior due to the vigorous, earthly and raw style he assimilated rather than the more esoteric, spiritual, heavenly aspect of Messaien's.
? who's in your butt
incredible analysis
You said that measure 19 has 32nd notes. But they are 64th notes.
Thanks for the correction!
So glad to finally see some of the logic in one of my favorite 20th century scores !This is one of the most refulgent scores in all music . Messiaen chronomie and Turangilila,early preludes all unforgettable !
A rhythm is ended by what comes afterward. So if you have an 8th/dotted 8th/dotted 8th/8, you can only hear the rhythm when you play the note or rest after the pattern. Just playing the 4 notes amounts to only playing the attacks on the notes and neglecting the release of the final one. It is the time between the 3rd and 5th notes that defines the final rhythmic unit.
thank you so much for this!! i needed it for my piano exam tomorrow
Fantastic work Nick. How about the Bartók Piano Sonata Sz. 80? Any of the three movements would be great.
Thank you! Yes, that's an interesting piece-I'll add it to the queue.
Thank you for thos analysis!
beautiful!!!
this is excellent
Excelente
18:35