Thanks for bringing Gareth into the conversation. He has such a great perspective on how to non-judgmentally look at the facts and feel comfortable sharing our stories so we can all collectively learn and improve from each other.
Gareth's point about the marketing of divers insurance vs the reality/availability of resources and the implicit reliance divers have in these insurances is an EXTREMELY good point. Honestly, alot of his points about the fallibility of "assumptions" and the culture of silence/fear within the diving community is invaluable.
Interesting how the stories topic came up. I have been skydiving long before I started SCUBA diving, and every evening after jumping all day, we’d start a bonfire, break out some beers and we’d share our stories. Like SCUBA, skydiving is also a technical sport that could also have dire consequences if things went wrong. As a newer skydiver, I learned so much listening to those stories, and I actually have had to apply that knowledge a few times to save myself or my student once I became an instructor. It is very important to tell stories, the good, bad, and ugly because that will not be the last time people go through that.
Woody , I also got bent and seriously I did not know what was going on. I believe it was DCS. It started with lethargy ! I was pretty tired. After the first night I started experiencing shortness of breath and then elbows , shoulders and knees aching ! It was hard to sleep in my bed ! The next thing I experienced was a spasm in my left chest area. I thought it was a Heart Attack. I went to the Hospital and did the stress test even. It has been 8 months since it happened. I tell this because I never had a clue what was going on. I thought DCS was the issue but everything look about the same ! It was not a denial thing , I just didn’t know.. looking back yeah I now know. This is a great conversation you three are having ! Because I believe many have had this happen to them and they didn’t understand what was going on. You going over the GF factor on the Shearwater is an absolutely massive help !
I'm not qualified to have a opinion on Woody's incident. Having said that the whole conversation and the concepts of human perception, before and after an incident and why people do the things they do is absolutely fascinating and not only applicable to diving incidents.
Gareth always manages to make you think. Very interesting discussion. I took his webinar course a few years back and it really changed the way I think about risk, how we communicate in our team, do debriefs, etc.
First responder here, its really normal for people to think they dont need goto the hospital. Even when they're having a heart attack, even after they've been in a car accident. Lots of very human reasons they dont want to go. Also conditions rarely present as textbook cases and there is always a degree of uncertainty.
My SO used to be an EMT and part of his training was apparently basically "if you know someone isn't doing well but they're refusing transportation, just stick around and wait for them to lose consciousness" because it's so common for people to not want to go when they really really need to. (I don't think they meant actually sit there and watch them go downhill so much as "don't go too far because you're probably gonna be called right back again." When you're unconscious consent is assumed.)
WOW! An amazing discussion. Gareth is the GOAT for analizing cause and effect. Honest talk about what was going through your heads at the time and how it affected your thinking. Excellent. Any chance Gareth is speaking in Bonaire at the Meet-up? Woody, brother, I agree completely on the Texas Toast. Can't miss out on Texas Toast. 😊 God bless you guys, can't wait to see you again in Bonaire.
When I was doing my DM, I had a dive that went really badly (luckily no one got hurt) and I felt so ashamed and stupid afterwards, and heavily blamed myself for messing up. Other divers that evening noticed I was down (crying behind my wrap around shades, very cool) and it was really difficult but I told them how I messed up. Everyone at that table was more experienced than me, and every person there went “no wait that’s messed up, you shouldn’t have been doing that, you aren’t qualified to do that, that’s against the rules etc”. I had no idea I’d been in a situation, and given a responsibility I SHOULDNT HAVE HAD. If I’d kept my mouth shut, I would have blamed myself so heavily. Sharing that story with my peers taught me something I didn’t know. I’m a huge fan of sharing stories, sharing screwups!
Your personalities are what entertains me but your commentary is what educates me. I've been watching for a few years now and i have tons more knowledge about diving than i previously had but it also taught me to be aware of when i think i know something do i actually know it or is my ego telling me i know the correct way. I don't dive but i use those lessons in daily life too.
45:10 - "Success is a terrible teacher, if you get it right at the first time". This is similar to what the chief engineer use to say at one of jobs, "there's nothing more treacherous than a working prototype". We learn from our mistakes. Things are so variable in the real world, and rarely look like what's taught in text books, that we'll miss things. As long as we're not in "the box" (coffin), we are always learning.
"As long as we're not in "the box" (coffin), we are always learning." - I would caveat that, we are always learning if we are reflecting on the activity. Learning can happen 'in the moment' but is much more effective if we reflect 'on the moment', focusing on the context and decision-making leading up to the event rather than saying "I won't do that again" or "I'll be more careful next time".
I really appreciated his comments around listening to stories. When we were learning to dive we watched so many videos, a lot of them stories about something going wrong during a dive, including some unfortunate deaths. But we watched them to learn. We talked about how we could apply what we were learning to avoid a situation. It made us practice skills over and over. Even now, we jump in with all our "tech" gear on a Florida dive boat and we have a plan for which skills we are going to practice on that dive. In the event of an emergency, we want the skills to be muscle memory, even though we don't dive every week because of where we live.
There’s a video on Smarter Everyday, where Destin goes to NASAs training pool and dives to watch them work. Would be so awesome to watch you guys react.
I know the "don't want to ruin it" feeling. I had a pretty intense hypothermic event following a 3 dive day (130', 85', and ending with a 40' night dive). I really felt exhausted from the 2 day dives, and didn't want to even go on the night dive.... but it was our "last chance" for night dive this trip. So... I went. It was all wrong for me from the start, but I stayed until I just knew I shouldn't anymore and called the dive. It still took another 20 min before I was completely out of the water, and an hour before I was out of the wetsuit. Don't know exactly what all happened in my body, whether a combo of narcosis and hypothermia, but I went through some strange and painful physical sensations for several hours before things, fortunately, improved. All because I did t want to ruin my partner's diving opportunities. (He wouldnt have gone without me.) Never again. Always listen to your body. If it's off, pay attention. You'll only put yourself and your dive buddy at risk.
I was one of the "experts" in the comments that criticized you for the seemingly cavalier oxygen use delaying treatment (I said something along the lines of "if oxygen is helpful, then that means there's something seriously wrong and you shouldn't delay treatment"). So, I'm a diver and a hyperbaric/undersea medicine physician... But I wasn't there, and that's the important part. As your guest so eloquently stated, we are all informed by our perceptions and past experiences as well as the information that we have available to us. When you listed the other things that you were thinking about when you had your incident, it really supports the appropriateness of why you did what you did. In medicine, we call that a differential diagnosis, and it's important to note as your guest did, that the perception - what we think is going on - changes as the situation evolves. So now, I can't fault you at all for what you did, and I understand, too, the difficulties of the various parties communicating based on the information they have or had, and their perspective and specialties. I think that if there are additional lessons to be learned by those watching your video, they are: 1) if you think a condition is one thing, and you do the appropriate thing to treat that condition but you do not have an appropriate response, then you MUST NOT be afraid to reevaluate the possibility of it being something else, or to change your approach to treatment, and 2) when you're approaching an emergency situation, your job is to think about the worst thing it could be, and only THEN find out what it actually is. That way, you don't forget about the possibility of the bad stuff. 3) medicine is hard - especially for conditions for which there aren't any objective laboratory or imaging tests, and there are multiple presentations. So there's no reason to feel like an idiot if you have to get checked out, and it turns out to be something minor. Don't be afraid to get help. In the end, I think that's what you did, and I'm glad everything worked out okay, and that you are continuing to provide a service to the diving community with discussions like this. Stay safe, and happy diving!
I am NOT a diver, nor will I ever be due to disability issues, but I love your videos, and I HAVE LEARNED a lot. It has made me very Interested in what you do, and I'd support even my son if he wanted to do it. I would now, make absolutely sure he was educated well and CORRECTLY, because of what I've learned watching dive talk!
Amazing and professional recap. Thank you for sharing this. All of these observations and lessons are far reaching, even beyond the diving community. Would love to have Brian and Gus recount their perspectives as well. Bless you all for the great videos and hard work while being honest. 😊❤
Hey Woody and Gus I’m a huge fan of your channel. I’m not a diver but I watch all of your videos and when Gus said dive buddy it got me thinking the only way I would go cave diving is if it was with y’all or MrBallen. Really enjoy your channel keep up the good work guys!
Very good discussion. I must say, I was one of the folks very critical of the situation in Abaco and moreover, disappointed with what seemed like a lack of accountability on the behalf of the divers themselves. To me, it seemed like the focus was on the shortcomings and shortfalls of DAN, which has, in my opinion been a highly credible organization. I immediately thought that Gareth should be involved in the review (and emailed him that opinion as well). This video was great though, and I applaud Woody & Gus for their openness and willingness to be self-critical in the reflection of the situation, which is hard to do. I do think Gareth was the conduit for this and I learned lots from the discussion. Perhaps education and entertainment is possible. Thank you again for providing this discussion. My hope is that it helps get more focus on Human Factors and Gareth’s work. He is doing the most important work in the scuba diving industry.
Let alone the consequential effects of DCS, contributing physiological problems such as hypoxia, hyperoxia, hypo- or hyperthermia, hypo- or hypercapnia can not only have overlapping symptoms but can, as Gareth says, also make the victim the least able to diagnose their condition. That for me means that I need to have access to an organisation and expertise that can do the heavy lifting for me if I have a problem because I may not be able to self-diagnose or handle the basic admin of my treatment.
My thought when I watched the first video and remains the same now is that if I had a dive buddy on O2 for any reason once we are out of the water our next stop is the hospital. Why take a chance.
People can smile and learn at the same time... Not a diver but I'm definitely considering, after getting hooked on your videos. DEFINITELY learn with each vid. Thanks for being a great pair faces for the diving community. Stay safe.
I have a serious question. I don’t have an Amex card with 50K of available credit to cover the cost of a chamber ride. Had I been in Woody’s shoes, I likely would be dead or seriously injured. Should I trust DAN any more? If the answer is yes, why should I trust them? Other than the limited info that DAN is “working on their procedures” as a result of Woody’s incident it’s been radio silence from them. This doesn’t instill me with confidence in DAN. Should we be looking for other companies that offer dive insurance? I suspect that there aren’t many other options available for us. I am still waiting for answers from them.
I think that's the challenge in this situation, let's set aside your confidence in DAN...let's say DAN is no longer an option...now what? Have nothing? I heard there is Dive Assure but they have a ton of limitations, and I assume Dive Assure and any other companies like them follow the same recipe, partner up with companies around the world to provide these services, so if you get bent in Jamaica or Mexico or wherever they can take care of you; will having one vs the other provide different results? I bet they would use the same contractors. So in this case I think you have to stick with DAN because there are no better options out there, the only thing we can hope for is that DAN (and other companies like them) learns from these incidents and make changes that benefit all divers out there. Tweak their procedures, ramp up their capabilities (contractor database), etc.. And for all the people that say "They are only making changes because they've been 'exposed on Dive Talk'" I say GREAT! We're glad to influence change in our industry that benefits divers globally. Whether those changes happened because DAN wants to get better or because they're being "forced" to get better, who cares? they are still changing for the better and that's all I care about.
@@DIVETALK I’m right there with you guys! It doesn’t matter why or how the needed changes initiated, only that they are…. While it sucks that this happened to anyone, I’m thankful that it happened in a set of circumstances that the unfortunate diver had the means to react in a way that minimized the potential bad impact. I’m so thankful that we had the outcome that we had. You have to take care of yourself, there aren’t many people around that can communicate directly with fish!!! 😂
@@DIVETALK I feel the problem in this case is the country. There are countries with expensive healthcare. But it's usually illegal to deny proper emergency care, when the patient can't cough up the payment upfront or isn't sufficiently covered. There are countries with cheap healthcare where this could definitely happen. It seems the Bahamas is both very expensive and doesn't have anything in the way of insuring proper medical emergency treament for patients. Which is kinda messed up. And a little suprising given it's tourism based economy.
I work very heavy construction, theres many near miss situations that are not reported and best believe someone else will do the same thing but not be so lucky. Acknowledging is the first step to resolving the problem.
I'm not a diver, but in aviation, they say rules and procedures were written in blood. You have to learn from problems, deaths, etc, or you'll never get better and safer.
Warning, long post: I watched the video and wondered if anyone examined the cultural element in how Woody's illness was handled. I'm an American who has spent long periods of time outside the US and my husband is European, but an enthusiastic, libertarian American convert. We are older than Gus, but younger than Woody. We completely understand why these guys handled things this way. When Gareth asked Gus in this segment why he didn't just bring Woody to the hospital against his wishes, we looked at eachother and "got it". We prob. would have also respected Woody's decision. My husband laughed at the time where I fought with medics who tried to take me in one time (not dive related) I actually felt violated and would not want another person to feel this way. This would affect how I handled an incident like this. We wonder if the people who are putting down these divers are from other countries, younger generation and/ or just don't have the same pov that many of us have here in the states, where our civil liberties and personal freedom are so important and ingrained. We definitely all learned from this, and will most likely drag people to hospital now, just in case. However, this "sport" on some boards to retroactively blame Woody's friends for "not knowing" or being negligent in not forcing him to go to the hospital is ridiculous.
Great discussion!! I can’t comment on all the topic I have in my mind.. not enough time or space 😁.. (yes, for those who doesn’t know I’m a physician with only 29 years taking care of critical patients 😌😏)
By watching this I got a feeling that "it can't happen to me because I'm now aware of all of this". But when I really think about it, this doesn't make any sense and I know I just have to be as aware as possible and take no chance. Weird feeling. Anyway, great video thanks for sharing!
I have to wonder if the US-centric issue of avoiding medical care because of the terrible medical insurance issues we have here had some effect here. In most other countries you'd just go because it literally costs nothing
You are a victim of propaganda. Try to develope some friends from these so called, "free healthcare countries". I have several Canadian and UK and they tell a very different story first hand.
I also wonder about the final remarks in the video, I mean in my country I believe it costs marginally more to have worldwide health insurance, so actually yeah the American aspect does make a difference there as well.
@@YZFoFittie Yeah dude, costs nothing up front. No need for an Amex. And its still cheaper than the US. Medical insurance here at its best is a terrible experience compared to Canada or the UK at its worst. But Because there is no up front costs to go to an ER or doctor, people just go, they don't delay and hum and haw and decide to make steaks
Denial isn't about ego, it's a difficulty coming to terms with the severity of a situation. Your mind has to process, is this really happening, and is this really happening to me. To do this your mind has to go through the process of dismissing alternative conclusions. So when Woody was feeling better, your mind would have gone oh problem solved, here is an alternative conclusion, I was simply overreacting. But then when the symptoms started again your brain had to reasses oh shit, I was wrong again. So Ur constantly second guessing urself and hence the process of accepting the severity of the problem and that its happening to you gets further and further delayed... until it becomes very clear, and unfortunately the point where it becomes clear is the point where it's becoming too late. So Denial isn't about ego, it's about assessing the risk of taking action over something that might or might not be minor vs this could be serious. In these situations the people going through it are not to blame, our mind will always start with the least risk scenario if the severity isn't obvious. However medical professionals should know better. Once the chamber was recommended, it should have been done.
I think a lot of the “denial” in these situations is less about ego and more about not wanting to “ruin” a nice vacation and it happens in all sorts of situations, not just diving.
I guess coming into diving as a paramedic changes my view point, but once any level of medical evaluation is began pre-hospital I’m truely of the mindset that an individual should get to doctor and have labs/scans.. knowing complex the body is really makes you understand expert review should always be sought out in those times.
This was a really really productive video. I respect so much you guys don’t hide stuff and take accountability. I mean I don’t dive but I feel like if I were in Gus’s shoes I would have a hard time just beeping like on your opinion dosent matter we are bringing you to get help. Also I think back to when you guys say you have friends that aren’t rich and they cave dive and it made me wonder like how much is Dan? Is ot even affordable to people that probably don’t have a bunch of money?
Love that series and great you make this public. Because you might know in theory, but first hand experience is another level. Divers know how difficult it is to judge the situation right and the symptoms. Is it just that you`re tired from diving or do you really have a medical condition? That`s difficult to judge, especially if you think about that 3 divers made the same dive and one ended up in troubles.
No one is speaking about exactly what DAN advertised for services with your membership. When the incident happened DAN was supposed to act and they didn’t, plain and simple. Second, in the U.S. you can’t force someone to go to the hospital if they are alert and answer questions appropriately, You have no basis of implied consent. Quit down playing DAN’s responsibility. They failed and hopefully learned a lesson and hopefully will advertise the correct services they can actually supply after they do a Quality Control check of their business.
So, had you immediately taken him to the nearby hospital while he was in the ‘I’m ok’ phase of the wave, what would they have done beyond basic vitals checks that might have detected something? Or would the vitals check have found something? If they cleared him to go home, your resolve to not pursue it further could have lasted much longer.
If you're on oxygen, you're not normal. You need to go to hospital, even just for a checkup. It happened to me with a super fast pulse after a simple shallow dive. The instructor correctly gave me oxygen and instantly took me to hospital. Dehydration was the cause. 8 drips and 24hrs later I'd recovered. Not bent. Insurance was awesome as were the doctors. Not DAN!
I would have first thought pulmonary or cardiac issues,such as a myocardial infarction,pulmonary embolism or pulmonary edema. Except the headache might have given indications of hypercapnia or bad air. I heard once that DCS is a big mimicker,too.
heeeey, woodie! i love steaks the same way as you do! just totally done, i understand how alone you must feel with this feeling, but dont be affrqid, we are 2! thanks for your videos! you are both superb!
Excellent job about the subjectivity of perceptions and memories! I studied philosophy of mind, one thing I learned is all eye witness testimony should be inadmissible. Plenty of psych experiments: change blindness, inattention blindness, and my favorites, color phi and the cutaneous rabbit, which are CRAZY because they show even temporal ORDER is subjective - in the cutaneous rabbit, they tap the arm in 2 spots and if done right you feel a third tap in between, so you feel the real tap, then a false tap, then the second real tap… soooo…. How does your brain know to insert that middle tap BEFORE YOU’RE AWARE OF THE FINAL TAP?!?! Muhahaha! 😈 how f’d up is that?
I think the normalcy bias plays a huge role in all kinds of emergencies. We are used to things being normal, so normal is what we see. The human brain is not a truth seeking device, so much as a comfort seeking g device. Seeing woody tired makes you think he’s tired. Seeing woody wanting O2 makes you think he overbreathed the loop. Seeing woody get hungry and seem normal reaffirms that he was just a bit hypercapnic and now he’s okay. I remember years ago my young dog died suddenly without warning and I wasn’t able to see her for 24 hours. She’s absolutely dead, but I shit you not, when I first saw her, I would have bet money that I could see her chest rising and falling taking breaths. That was the normal that my brain expected, so that’s what I saw. I literally had to talk myself out of seeing these imaginary movements. This is what the human brain does, almost automatically. It takes extremely analytical people, or people who’s “normal” IS emergencies, to see things clearly that fast.
The psychological aspects of denial are significant, we should be trained as divers to not neglect the psychological aspects, like in Woody’s case the team should have just taken the step to send him to the hospital right away no matter what he was saying. The bent person is fighting on 2 levels, physically and more so psychologically, the psychological aspects in this case , no matter Woody’s demeanour,in the psychological aspect of not wanting to spoil the teams plans is significant!
I mentioned this elsewhere but I’m curious if general search and rescue insurance would work at all - in a way, once you’re topside it’s kinda like any other backcountry rescue. And by that nature, IMMEDIATE air transport is pretty standard. I’m also curious, what the hell else would DAN do other than transport people to the nearest level 1 trauma center? Sounds like there’s not a whole lot of “rescuing” in diving… what the hell else do they do??
Because Woody survived, and is OK, this was a great lesson about needs care, insurance and you know the guy, Dan and are working with him. And hopefully, someone doesn't need this again and have to pay to get to care.
going to the ER room for every thing that makes you concerned is a bad idea in America - the penalty financially is too large you can't just do that. I would be bankrupt if I followed the safety standard of advice that everyone always says for all industries and all situations.
Great video as usual. No egos just a group of people trying to learn as much as possible to benefit a community they love. Considering how difficult it was for Woody to get help when you had clear signs of a problem, imagine how difficult it would have been if you went to the hospital immediately. They would have probably just sent Woody home.
There is a saying 8n the medical field, "if you hear hoofbeats, thing horses not zebras." Meaning, look for the most basic reason something is happening. Woody and Gus looked to the basic life/medical causes of the symptoms, not the recreational causes. It is denial based on present moment knowledge, not denial as in "this can't happen to me."
I think in the US we don't always think we can go to the hospital cause its expensive. Glad Woody is okay! If you dive enough you will get bend eventually is my thought.
Really like the end message. The entertainment of dive talk does promote non-divers to join in the fun! With proper training, and the training is fun! Maybe do a video about that. Talk about how fun dive training actually is! Great channel!
Truth be told as a medic and a firefighter with a total EMS time of over 25 years. You cannot take someone against their will, if they are alert and oriented to person place,time, event with no drugs or alcohol. We cannot kidnap anyone. I would be trying to convince Woody from the onset. Whomever the medic on the boat was they should have been trying to get him to go. Sometimes people refuse for various reasons. Find someone close to them and find a reason to convince them to go. Ultimately even rational people make bad choices.
I think the comments about taking him in when he said he was okay are coming from people that have never been in a similar situation. It doesn’t even have to be diving related. You know there is a reason for concern but if someone looks okay and says they are what are you going to do? Most people would listen to the person, assuming they know how they feel.
Observation here...Gareths first response is how everyone has their version of events, and how our memory is malliable based on the stories, how his account now is different and has been " "Re-encoded into him" I think that can come across really problematic, for example, Woody went through a... pretty traumatic and scary event, Gus and Woody did a very strong job of presenting the story as it happened, and it just feels kinda disingenuous to say " you look back on your story and justify it with what you know" I mean yeah that *can* be the case. But we heard the story and saw as Woody heard for the first time what the outside perspective was into his issue! Such as when he got really uncomfortable when his body had locked up / went fugue state on him and for him to say that everytime you recount that you're corrupting the story.. That's pretty crazy to me, they've put out a single video made no changes and just.. to immediately discredit them because " human memory?" THEN To bring up eye-witness testimony and the practice of it legally is an entirely different situation compared to, Mike Young, Doug Eversals' input etc. Because EXPERT TESTIMONY is a thing! Let me preface though just because there were several "experts" it's okay to continue with caution but I think it's pretty wild to cut out some of these pretty big notes just to say, " everytime you tell it, it changes?" To then refer to this as a standard eye-witness type of thing is a bad call in my opinion. I can remember every step of the way from when I broke my arm, that story hasn't been *corrupted* if anything processing it let me remember some details I didn't have in the moment because of adrenaline.. I just think that was a really... bad start.. His first reaction was to discredit human memory and story telling and I'm not entirely certain what the point of doing that was? Especially when talking about a uh.. life or death episode that happened.. Just kinda crazy to be like, " you corrupted it by telling it" Like... Bruh.. W0t..? That landed pretty gross with me yoikes
I think the most important thing to take from this is that you did the best you could in the situation you were in with the information that you had at the time. You always acted out of the information that you had. None of you knew exactly just how bad it was for Woody, and Woody wasn't truly in the right space of mind to know how close to death he could be at the time.
I think this is a lesson about the way men think. You guys have a tendency to overlook helfy problems. And another factory is the cost of medical assistance in USA. In Brazil we are the opposite, we run to the hospital. We go even for a minor problems, what is a problem.
It is not that simple. Very few places have chambers suitable for diving accidents, or available to the public for that length of time. And not all are staffed 24x7. Yes, medical costs can be huge here, even for the insured. But offhand I know at least two grown women who wouldn't go to a hospital unless there was a broken bone sticking out if their limb.
Unfortunately, a lot of viewers are just looking for something to pick a part. And because of the type of videos your channel does it attracts a lot of people like that. No offense to the majority of your viewers that are just looking to be safer divers.
I think it’s normal that people don’t go racing off to the hospital for every little thing. Being wiped out after a dive isn’t totally unusual. Add to that the period of recovery in the van. Honestly, I think even if I was in that situation now I don’t think I’d go to the hospital. The symptoms are just so vague! I mean, I wish I could say, “yeah now that I know this, I would totally go to the hospital” but i just really think I’d take a watch and wait approach.
Just found out: a cave diver died in the Plura Cave in Norway today. All it said on the news alert on my phone is that the victim was an American citizen. You guys know anything?
I'm paused at 27:37 to chime in about Gareth's question: Why not go to the hospital on the way home? Despite Gus's earlier answer that insurance/money wasn't a factor I would counter that as Americans we are very hesitant to seek out medical attention unless something is really and obviously wrong. It may not be a conscious thought, but rather it is a cultural trait Americans. I feel like that's why Gareth kept asking, because it really is culturally ingrained to avoid doctors. "He was recovered" shows that hesitance to go to a doctor unless you have something clearly wrong that you can point at and say, "This is why we are here". I want to make it clear that I'm not judging Gus, Brian, or Woody for thinking this way, if anything I'm judging the American health care system for making so many of us hesitate when it comes to seeking medical attention (myself absolutely included)
Extra well done steak? Now I know woody is not human.😂 On a serious note, I'm really glad that woody made it through. It was an ordeal but many valuable lessons and changes can come out of it.
As a diagnostician, I appreciate the nuance in this discussion about symptoms. It’s always difficult to have insight into what your body is telling you, and it’s hard to admit something is wrong with one of your buddies! Thanks for adding your perspective Gareth.
I am going to say that it’s a hard stop that if a person needs O2, or goes on O2, even if only because of a “maybe, better to be safe” then the decision to go in for further evaluation has been made. Full stop.
41:20 Spot on, Woody. I'm NOT a diver but love the educational & safety aspects of your vids. You guys have opened up a new world to me; a world of rebreathers, deco, Trimix, laying line, etc. & you present this material in a way that diver newbies/non-divers can comprehend. Your audience clearly isn't sick of these educational aspects cos your subscriber-ship keeps growing. GREAT VID btw! SOOO glad you survived to be able to tell the tale, Woody.
As a shrink, I truly appreciate Gareth’s insights. His clear explanations of variability in symptoms, common errors in decision making, and opportunities to use these understandings to make small but meaningfully tweaks to improve safety, just 👏🏻!
Former comm diver here. A little over 30 years ago, with thousands of dives already under my belt, a simple, open-circuit dive. First dive of the day... 50' for 60 minutes. Withing rec diving tables, safety stop, no issued during the dive. Came up super fatigued. Bent over to take off a bootie and the world spun. Nausea and throwing up. Feeling like I wasn't getting air. A lot of the same symptoms as Woodie. Before I could even think about what was going on...they had me on O2 and on the way to a hospital with a chamber. Maybe an hour trip, symptoms coming in waves, with periods where I felt fine. They knew we were coming, and within fifteen minutes of arriving at the chamber, we were pressurizing to 60'. It took that 15 minutes because they took a chest X-ray first. As soon as we "dove," there was instant relief. Tired from puking and extreme anxiety, but other than that, all the symptoms were gone. I was diagnosed with a micro-rupture in the lungs that led to an air-gas-embolism. The diving physician (super-experienced, retired USN dive physician) told me that it happens, even on a perfect dive, especially if exertion is involved. The X-ray was looking for barotrauma, but it was likely a micro-rupture that wasn't visible on the films. The crew I was with didn't screw around. I had just come up from a dive and was displaying possible dive-injury CNS-related symptoms. They didn't care that it could be this or that. There was A CHANCE that it was a dive injury, and the first thing they did was to get me to help.
Guys, this is hands down one of the best episodes I've seen. This is great content. The short lesson i learned in my very first deco class is "there's no such thing as an 'undeserved' hit, hemodynamics is far to complicated to make those statements, Woody is a prime example of what that would historically be called. He did EVERYTHING right and followed the dive plan and deco model and went further to additional conservancy. We've all read about symptom denial and how people will deny deny deny, but it's great to hear it 'first hand' from the horses mouth, how this experience played out. I'm glad everything worked out and Woody is on the mend. Great job with this episode. Garath was an excellent guest!
I was glad to hear Woody say it's OK for them to learn a lesson from this. It's important to be able to recognize that even if 99 % of the criticism directed at you is unjustified there is still that 1% that needs to taken on board.
Gus I would like a dive buddy and a friend like you. You treated Woody wonderfully! You were there for him when he needed him. Then you learned from your experience. I watch both you and Woody so I can learn. I like your styles. ❤
Thanks for bringing Gareth into the conversation. He has such a great perspective on how to non-judgmentally look at the facts and feel comfortable sharing our stories so we can all collectively learn and improve from each other.
Gareth's point about the marketing of divers insurance vs the reality/availability of resources and the implicit reliance divers have in these insurances is an EXTREMELY good point.
Honestly, alot of his points about the fallibility of "assumptions" and the culture of silence/fear within the diving community is invaluable.
Interesting how the stories topic came up. I have been skydiving long before I started SCUBA diving, and every evening after jumping all day, we’d start a bonfire, break out some beers and we’d share our stories. Like SCUBA, skydiving is also a technical sport that could also have dire consequences if things went wrong. As a newer skydiver, I learned so much listening to those stories, and I actually have had to apply that knowledge a few times to save myself or my student once I became an instructor. It is very important to tell stories, the good, bad, and ugly because that will not be the last time people go through that.
Woody , I also got bent and seriously I did not know what was going on. I believe it was DCS. It started with lethargy ! I was pretty tired. After the first night I started experiencing shortness of breath and then elbows , shoulders and knees aching ! It was hard to sleep in my bed ! The next thing I experienced was a spasm in my left chest area. I thought it was a Heart Attack. I went to the Hospital and did the stress test even. It has been 8 months since it happened. I tell this because I never had a clue what was going on. I thought DCS was the issue but everything look about the same ! It was not a denial thing , I just didn’t know.. looking back yeah I now know. This is a great conversation you three are having ! Because I believe many have had this happen to them and they didn’t understand what was going on. You going over the GF factor on the Shearwater is an absolutely massive help !
I'm not qualified to have a opinion on Woody's incident. Having said that the whole conversation and the concepts of human perception, before and after an incident and why people do the things they do is absolutely fascinating and not only applicable to diving incidents.
Especially the part about an extra well done steak.
Gareth always manages to make you think. Very interesting discussion.
I took his webinar course a few years back and it really changed the way I think about risk, how we communicate in our team, do debriefs, etc.
First responder here, its really normal for people to think they dont need goto the hospital. Even when they're having a heart attack, even after they've been in a car accident. Lots of very human reasons they dont want to go. Also conditions rarely present as textbook cases and there is always a degree of uncertainty.
My SO used to be an EMT and part of his training was apparently basically "if you know someone isn't doing well but they're refusing transportation, just stick around and wait for them to lose consciousness" because it's so common for people to not want to go when they really really need to. (I don't think they meant actually sit there and watch them go downhill so much as "don't go too far because you're probably gonna be called right back again." When you're unconscious consent is assumed.)
WOW! An amazing discussion. Gareth is the GOAT for analizing cause and effect. Honest talk about what was going through your heads at the time and how it affected your thinking. Excellent.
Any chance Gareth is speaking in Bonaire at the Meet-up?
Woody, brother, I agree completely on the Texas Toast. Can't miss out on Texas Toast. 😊
God bless you guys, can't wait to see you again in Bonaire.
When I was doing my DM, I had a dive that went really badly (luckily no one got hurt) and I felt so ashamed and stupid afterwards, and heavily blamed myself for messing up.
Other divers that evening noticed I was down (crying behind my wrap around shades, very cool) and it was really difficult but I told them how I messed up.
Everyone at that table was more experienced than me, and every person there went “no wait that’s messed up, you shouldn’t have been doing that, you aren’t qualified to do that, that’s against the rules etc”. I had no idea I’d been in a situation, and given a responsibility I SHOULDNT HAVE HAD. If I’d kept my mouth shut, I would have blamed myself so heavily. Sharing that story with my peers taught me something I didn’t know. I’m a huge fan of sharing stories, sharing screwups!
Your personalities are what entertains me but your commentary is what educates me. I've been watching for a few years now and i have tons more knowledge about diving than i previously had but it also taught me to be aware of when i think i know something do i actually know it or is my ego telling me i know the correct way. I don't dive but i use those lessons in daily life too.
45:10 - "Success is a terrible teacher, if you get it right at the first time". This is similar to what the chief engineer use to say at one of jobs, "there's nothing more treacherous than a working prototype". We learn from our mistakes. Things are so variable in the real world, and rarely look like what's taught in text books, that we'll miss things. As long as we're not in "the box" (coffin), we are always learning.
"As long as we're not in "the box" (coffin), we are always learning." - I would caveat that, we are always learning if we are reflecting on the activity. Learning can happen 'in the moment' but is much more effective if we reflect 'on the moment', focusing on the context and decision-making leading up to the event rather than saying "I won't do that again" or "I'll be more careful next time".
I really appreciated his comments around listening to stories. When we were learning to dive we watched so many videos, a lot of them stories about something going wrong during a dive, including some unfortunate deaths. But we watched them to learn. We talked about how we could apply what we were learning to avoid a situation. It made us practice skills over and over. Even now, we jump in with all our "tech" gear on a Florida dive boat and we have a plan for which skills we are going to practice on that dive. In the event of an emergency, we want the skills to be muscle memory, even though we don't dive every week because of where we live.
There’s a video on Smarter Everyday, where Destin goes to NASAs training pool and dives to watch them work. Would be so awesome to watch you guys react.
Thanks for update, great conversation like always, no matter why DAN react, matter you influence them changing for the better
I know the "don't want to ruin it" feeling. I had a pretty intense hypothermic event following a 3 dive day (130', 85', and ending with a 40' night dive). I really felt exhausted from the 2 day dives, and didn't want to even go on the night dive.... but it was our "last chance" for night dive this trip. So... I went. It was all wrong for me from the start, but I stayed until I just knew I shouldn't anymore and called the dive. It still took another 20 min before I was completely out of the water, and an hour before I was out of the wetsuit. Don't know exactly what all happened in my body, whether a combo of narcosis and hypothermia, but I went through some strange and painful physical sensations for several hours before things, fortunately, improved. All because I did t want to ruin my partner's diving opportunities. (He wouldnt have gone without me.) Never again. Always listen to your body. If it's off, pay attention. You'll only put yourself and your dive buddy at risk.
I was one of the "experts" in the comments that criticized you for the seemingly cavalier oxygen use delaying treatment (I said something along the lines of "if oxygen is helpful, then that means there's something seriously wrong and you shouldn't delay treatment").
So, I'm a diver and a hyperbaric/undersea medicine physician... But I wasn't there, and that's the important part. As your guest so eloquently stated, we are all informed by our perceptions and past experiences as well as the information that we have available to us.
When you listed the other things that you were thinking about when you had your incident, it really supports the appropriateness of why you did what you did. In medicine, we call that a differential diagnosis, and it's important to note as your guest did, that the perception - what we think is going on - changes as the situation evolves.
So now, I can't fault you at all for what you did, and I understand, too, the difficulties of the various parties communicating based on the information they have or had, and their perspective and specialties.
I think that if there are additional lessons to be learned by those watching your video, they are: 1) if you think a condition is one thing, and you do the appropriate thing to treat that condition but you do not have an appropriate response, then you MUST NOT be afraid to reevaluate the possibility of it being something else, or to change your approach to treatment, and 2) when you're approaching an emergency situation, your job is to think about the worst thing it could be, and only THEN find out what it actually is. That way, you don't forget about the possibility of the bad stuff. 3) medicine is hard - especially for conditions for which there aren't any objective laboratory or imaging tests, and there are multiple presentations. So there's no reason to feel like an idiot if you have to get checked out, and it turns out to be something minor. Don't be afraid to get help.
In the end, I think that's what you did, and I'm glad everything worked out okay, and that you are continuing to provide a service to the diving community with discussions like this.
Stay safe, and happy diving!
I am NOT a diver, nor will I ever be due to disability issues, but I love your videos, and I HAVE LEARNED a lot. It has made me very Interested in what you do, and I'd support even my son if he wanted to do it. I would now, make absolutely sure he was educated well and CORRECTLY, because of what I've learned watching dive talk!
Amazing and professional recap. Thank you for sharing this. All of these observations and lessons are far reaching, even beyond the diving community. Would love to have Brian and Gus recount their perspectives as well. Bless you all for the great videos and hard work while being honest. 😊❤
Hey Woody and Gus I’m a huge fan of your channel. I’m not a diver but I watch all of your videos and when Gus said dive buddy it got me thinking the only way I would go cave diving is if it was with y’all or MrBallen. Really enjoy your channel keep up the good work guys!
Very good discussion. I must say, I was one of the folks very critical of the situation in Abaco and moreover, disappointed with what seemed like a lack of accountability on the behalf of the divers themselves. To me, it seemed like the focus was on the shortcomings and shortfalls of DAN, which has, in my opinion been a highly credible organization. I immediately thought that Gareth should be involved in the review (and emailed him that opinion as well).
This video was great though, and I applaud Woody & Gus for their openness and willingness to be self-critical in the reflection of the situation, which is hard to do. I do think Gareth was the conduit for this and I learned lots from the discussion. Perhaps education and entertainment is possible.
Thank you again for providing this discussion. My hope is that it helps get more focus on Human Factors and Gareth’s work. He is doing the most important work in the scuba diving industry.
Let alone the consequential effects of DCS, contributing physiological problems such as hypoxia, hyperoxia, hypo- or hyperthermia, hypo- or hypercapnia can not only have overlapping symptoms but can, as Gareth says, also make the victim the least able to diagnose their condition. That for me means that I need to have access to an organisation and expertise that can do the heavy lifting for me if I have a problem because I may not be able to self-diagnose or handle the basic admin of my treatment.
So excited i had time to actually watch this in full Will never dive but I love you guys and all you represent.
Thank you for the Longform content guys!
Great video. The added value you provide to the diving community is amazing !
My thought when I watched the first video and remains the same now is that if I had a dive buddy on O2 for any reason once we are out of the water our next stop is the hospital. Why take a chance.
People can smile and learn at the same time... Not a diver but I'm definitely considering, after getting hooked on your videos. DEFINITELY learn with each vid. Thanks for being a great pair faces for the diving community. Stay safe.
I have a serious question. I don’t have an Amex card with 50K of available credit to cover the cost of a chamber ride. Had I been in Woody’s shoes, I likely would be dead or seriously injured. Should I trust DAN any more? If the answer is yes, why should I trust them? Other than the limited info that DAN is “working on their procedures” as a result of Woody’s incident it’s been radio silence from them. This doesn’t instill me with confidence in DAN. Should we be looking for other companies that offer dive insurance? I suspect that there aren’t many other options available for us. I am still waiting for answers from them.
I think that's the challenge in this situation, let's set aside your confidence in DAN...let's say DAN is no longer an option...now what? Have nothing? I heard there is Dive Assure but they have a ton of limitations, and I assume Dive Assure and any other companies like them follow the same recipe, partner up with companies around the world to provide these services, so if you get bent in Jamaica or Mexico or wherever they can take care of you; will having one vs the other provide different results? I bet they would use the same contractors.
So in this case I think you have to stick with DAN because there are no better options out there, the only thing we can hope for is that DAN (and other companies like them) learns from these incidents and make changes that benefit all divers out there. Tweak their procedures, ramp up their capabilities (contractor database), etc.. And for all the people that say "They are only making changes because they've been 'exposed on Dive Talk'" I say GREAT! We're glad to influence change in our industry that benefits divers globally. Whether those changes happened because DAN wants to get better or because they're being "forced" to get better, who cares? they are still changing for the better and that's all I care about.
@@DIVETALK I’m right there with you guys! It doesn’t matter why or how the needed changes initiated, only that they are…. While it sucks that this happened to anyone, I’m thankful that it happened in a set of circumstances that the unfortunate diver had the means to react in a way that minimized the potential bad impact. I’m so thankful that we had the outcome that we had. You have to take care of yourself, there aren’t many people around that can communicate directly with fish!!! 😂
@@DIVETALK I feel the problem in this case is the country. There are countries with expensive healthcare. But it's usually illegal to deny proper emergency care, when the patient can't cough up the payment upfront or isn't sufficiently covered. There are countries with cheap healthcare where this could definitely happen.
It seems the Bahamas is both very expensive and doesn't have anything in the way of insuring proper medical emergency treament for patients. Which is kinda messed up. And a little suprising given it's tourism based economy.
I work very heavy construction, theres many near miss situations that are not reported and best believe someone else will do the same thing but not be so lucky. Acknowledging is the first step to resolving the problem.
Fantastic discussion, incredibly insightful. Good job 👍
Guys, videos are getting better and better!
Reading Gareth’s book right now!!!
I'm not a diver, but in aviation, they say rules and procedures were written in blood. You have to learn from problems, deaths, etc, or you'll never get better and safer.
if my buddy needs o2 on the surface at all im taking them to the hospital
Yup standard procedure in my o2 classes no exception
@@scooterdog5684 that's what I'm saying procedures are put in place for a rwason
Warning, long post: I watched the video and wondered if anyone examined the cultural element in how Woody's illness was handled. I'm an American who has spent long periods of time outside the US and my husband is European, but an enthusiastic, libertarian American convert. We are older than Gus, but younger than Woody. We completely understand why these guys handled things this way. When Gareth asked Gus in this segment why he didn't just bring Woody to the hospital against his wishes, we looked at eachother and "got it". We prob. would have also respected Woody's decision. My husband laughed at the time where I fought with medics who tried to take me in one time (not dive related) I actually felt violated and would not want another person to feel this way. This would affect how I handled an incident like this. We wonder if the people who are putting down these divers are from other countries, younger generation and/ or just don't have the same pov that many of us have here in the states, where our civil liberties and personal freedom are so important and ingrained. We definitely all learned from this, and will most likely drag people to hospital now, just in case. However, this "sport" on some boards to retroactively blame Woody's friends for "not knowing" or being negligent in not forcing him to go to the hospital is ridiculous.
Great discussion!! I can’t comment on all the topic I have in my mind.. not enough time or space 😁.. (yes, for those who doesn’t know I’m a physician with only 29 years taking care of critical patients 😌😏)
By watching this I got a feeling that "it can't happen to me because I'm now aware of all of this". But when I really think about it, this doesn't make any sense and I know I just have to be as aware as possible and take no chance. Weird feeling. Anyway, great video thanks for sharing!
I have to wonder if the US-centric issue of avoiding medical care because of the terrible medical insurance issues we have here had some effect here. In most other countries you'd just go because it literally costs nothing
That's a very interesting idea. I'm wondering the same thing 🤔
You are a victim of propaganda. Try to develope some friends from these so called, "free healthcare countries". I have several Canadian and UK and they tell a very different story first hand.
I also wonder about the final remarks in the video, I mean in my country I believe it costs marginally more to have worldwide health insurance, so actually yeah the American aspect does make a difference there as well.
Costs nothing? Literally? LMFAO never heard of income tax eh?
@@YZFoFittie Yeah dude, costs nothing up front. No need for an Amex. And its still cheaper than the US. Medical insurance here at its best is a terrible experience compared to Canada or the UK at its worst. But Because there is no up front costs to go to an ER or doctor, people just go, they don't delay and hum and haw and decide to make steaks
Denial isn't about ego, it's a difficulty coming to terms with the severity of a situation. Your mind has to process, is this really happening, and is this really happening to me. To do this your mind has to go through the process of dismissing alternative conclusions. So when Woody was feeling better, your mind would have gone oh problem solved, here is an alternative conclusion, I was simply overreacting. But then when the symptoms started again your brain had to reasses oh shit, I was wrong again. So Ur constantly second guessing urself and hence the process of accepting the severity of the problem and that its happening to you gets further and further delayed... until it becomes very clear, and unfortunately the point where it becomes clear is the point where it's becoming too late. So Denial isn't about ego, it's about assessing the risk of taking action over something that might or might not be minor vs this could be serious. In these situations the people going through it are not to blame, our mind will always start with the least risk scenario if the severity isn't obvious. However medical professionals should know better. Once the chamber was recommended, it should have been done.
I think a lot of the “denial” in these situations is less about ego and more about not wanting to “ruin” a nice vacation and it happens in all sorts of situations, not just diving.
I guess coming into diving as a paramedic changes my view point, but once any level of medical evaluation is began pre-hospital I’m truely of the mindset that an individual should get to doctor and have labs/scans.. knowing complex the body is really makes you understand expert review should always be sought out in those times.
This was a really really productive video. I respect so much you guys don’t hide stuff and take accountability. I mean I don’t dive but I feel like if I were in Gus’s shoes I would have a hard time just beeping like on your opinion dosent matter we are bringing you to get help. Also I think back to when you guys say you have friends that aren’t rich and they cave dive and it made me wonder like how much is Dan? Is ot even affordable to people that probably don’t have a bunch of money?
Very affordable. I believe their most expensive plan (the one we have) is like $15 a month.
Love that series and great you make this public. Because you might know in theory, but first hand experience is another level.
Divers know how difficult it is to judge the situation right and the symptoms. Is it just that you`re tired from diving or do you really have a medical condition?
That`s difficult to judge, especially if you think about that 3 divers made the same dive and one ended up in troubles.
No one is speaking about exactly what DAN advertised for services with your membership. When the incident happened DAN was supposed to act and they didn’t, plain and simple. Second, in the U.S. you can’t force someone to go to the hospital if they are alert and answer questions appropriately, You have no basis of implied consent. Quit down playing DAN’s responsibility. They failed and hopefully learned a lesson and hopefully will advertise the correct services they can actually supply after they do a Quality Control check of their business.
FINALLY another well done steak enjoyer. Meat is just a conveyor for the sauce to get to my mouth.
What a shame, you’re missing out on the whole joy of the actual STEAK. I am so sad for folks like you and woody 😔 Gus get it 😉
So, had you immediately taken him to the nearby hospital while he was in the ‘I’m ok’ phase of the wave, what would they have done beyond basic vitals checks that might have detected something? Or would the vitals check have found something?
If they cleared him to go home, your resolve to not pursue it further could have lasted much longer.
If you're on oxygen, you're not normal. You need to go to hospital, even just for a checkup. It happened to me with a super fast pulse after a simple shallow dive. The instructor correctly gave me oxygen and instantly took me to hospital. Dehydration was the cause. 8 drips and 24hrs later I'd recovered. Not bent. Insurance was awesome as were the doctors. Not DAN!
I would have first thought pulmonary or cardiac issues,such as a myocardial infarction,pulmonary embolism or pulmonary edema. Except the headache might have given indications of hypercapnia or bad air.
I heard once that DCS is a big mimicker,too.
heeeey, woodie! i love steaks the same way as you do! just totally done, i understand how alone you must feel with this feeling, but dont be affrqid, we are 2! thanks for your videos! you are both superb!
Why not do mandatory bubble test for all the divers after the dive, so the self assesment aspect will be taken out from the considerations?
Does anyone know if they’ve done the transcript yet? Thanks glad woody is okay now
Guys, as informative as this is, we need to talk about that steak. 😂
Excellent job about the subjectivity of perceptions and memories! I studied philosophy of mind, one thing I learned is all eye witness testimony should be inadmissible. Plenty of psych experiments: change blindness, inattention blindness, and my favorites, color phi and the cutaneous rabbit, which are CRAZY because they show even temporal ORDER is subjective - in the cutaneous rabbit, they tap the arm in 2 spots and if done right you feel a third tap in between, so you feel the real tap, then a false tap, then the second real tap… soooo…. How does your brain know to insert that middle tap BEFORE YOU’RE AWARE OF THE FINAL TAP?!?! Muhahaha! 😈 how f’d up is that?
I think the normalcy bias plays a huge role in all kinds of emergencies. We are used to things being normal, so normal is what we see. The human brain is not a truth seeking device, so much as a comfort seeking g device. Seeing woody tired makes you think he’s tired. Seeing woody wanting O2 makes you think he overbreathed the loop. Seeing woody get hungry and seem normal reaffirms that he was just a bit hypercapnic and now he’s okay. I remember years ago my young dog died suddenly without warning and I wasn’t able to see her for 24 hours. She’s absolutely dead, but I shit you not, when I first saw her, I would have bet money that I could see her chest rising and falling taking breaths. That was the normal that my brain expected, so that’s what I saw. I literally had to talk myself out of seeing these imaginary movements.
This is what the human brain does, almost automatically. It takes extremely analytical people, or people who’s “normal” IS emergencies, to see things clearly that fast.
Wait theres a third chair?? 😮
🫢
The psychological aspects of denial are significant, we should be trained as divers to not neglect the psychological aspects, like in Woody’s case the team should have just taken the step to send him to the hospital right away no matter what he was saying. The bent person is fighting on 2 levels, physically and more so psychologically, the psychological aspects in this case , no matter Woody’s demeanour,in the psychological aspect of not wanting to spoil the teams plans is significant!
I mentioned this elsewhere but I’m curious if general search and rescue insurance would work at all - in a way, once you’re topside it’s kinda like any other backcountry rescue. And by that nature, IMMEDIATE air transport is pretty standard.
I’m also curious, what the hell else would DAN do other than transport people to the nearest level 1 trauma center? Sounds like there’s not a whole lot of “rescuing” in diving… what the hell else do they do??
its been months. highly doubt youll ever get those transcripts.
Because Woody survived, and is OK, this was a great lesson about needs care, insurance and you know the guy, Dan and are working with him. And hopefully, someone doesn't need this again and have to pay to get to care.
going to the ER room for every thing that makes you concerned is a bad idea in America - the penalty financially is too large you can't just do that. I would be bankrupt if I followed the safety standard of advice that everyone always says for all industries and all situations.
Great video as usual. No egos just a group of people trying to learn as much as possible to benefit a community they love.
Considering how difficult it was for Woody to get help when you had clear signs of a problem, imagine how difficult it would have been if you went to the hospital immediately. They would have probably just sent Woody home.
Newbie here: can someone be bent but a very minor case? What are the consequences of not getting treated? 7 dives in and loving it
Not a diver so can’t really go into detail but yes.
There is a saying 8n the medical field, "if you hear hoofbeats, thing horses not zebras." Meaning, look for the most basic reason something is happening. Woody and Gus looked to the basic life/medical causes of the symptoms, not the recreational causes. It is denial based on present moment knowledge, not denial as in "this can't happen to me."
Do you guys use a separate CO analyzer for checking for bad gas?
It shouldn't matter what dive mistakes you make. You pay for the insurance so they should do whatever needs to be done to save your life.
I think in the US we don't always think we can go to the hospital cause its expensive. Glad Woody is okay! If you dive enough you will get bend eventually is my thought.
Really like the end message. The entertainment of dive talk does promote non-divers to join in the fun! With proper training, and the training is fun! Maybe do a video about that. Talk about how fun dive training actually is! Great channel!
Truth be told as a medic and a firefighter with a total EMS time of over 25 years. You cannot take someone against their will, if they are alert and oriented to person place,time, event with no drugs or alcohol. We cannot kidnap anyone. I would be trying to convince Woody from the onset. Whomever the medic on the boat was they should have been trying to get him to go. Sometimes people refuse for various reasons. Find someone close to them and find a reason to convince them to go. Ultimately even rational people make bad choices.
I think the comments about taking him in when he said he was okay are coming from people that have never been in a similar situation. It doesn’t even have to be diving related. You know there is a reason for concern but if someone looks okay and says they are what are you going to do? Most people would listen to the person, assuming they know how they feel.
Observation here...Gareths first response is how everyone has their version of events, and how our memory is malliable based on the stories, how his account now is different and has been " "Re-encoded into him" I think that can come across really problematic, for example, Woody went through a... pretty traumatic and scary event, Gus and Woody did a very strong job of presenting the story as it happened, and it just feels kinda disingenuous to say " you look back on your story and justify it with what you know" I mean yeah that *can* be the case. But we heard the story and saw as Woody heard for the first time what the outside perspective was into his issue! Such as when he got really uncomfortable when his body had locked up / went fugue state on him and for him to say that everytime you recount that you're corrupting the story.. That's pretty crazy to me, they've put out a single video made no changes and just.. to immediately discredit them because " human memory?" THEN To bring up eye-witness testimony and the practice of it legally is an entirely different situation compared to, Mike Young, Doug Eversals' input etc. Because EXPERT TESTIMONY is a thing! Let me preface though just because there were several "experts" it's okay to continue with caution but I think it's pretty wild to cut out some of these pretty big notes just to say, " everytime you tell it, it changes?" To then refer to this as a standard eye-witness type of thing is a bad call in my opinion. I can remember every step of the way from when I broke my arm, that story hasn't been *corrupted* if anything processing it let me remember some details I didn't have in the moment because of adrenaline.. I just think that was a really... bad start.. His first reaction was to discredit human memory and story telling and I'm not entirely certain what the point of doing that was? Especially when talking about a uh.. life or death episode that happened.. Just kinda crazy to be like, " you corrupted it by telling it" Like... Bruh.. W0t..? That landed pretty gross with me yoikes
Interesting. I put a long reply in here about eye witness testimonies and it is no longer here.
Im terrified of deep dark water and caves, but if someone told me id be going with Woody and Gus then fuck it im down.
I think the most important thing to take from this is that you did the best you could in the situation you were in with the information that you had at the time. You always acted out of the information that you had. None of you knew exactly just how bad it was for Woody, and Woody wasn't truly in the right space of mind to know how close to death he could be at the time.
I think this is a lesson about the way men think. You guys have a tendency to overlook helfy problems. And another factory is the cost of medical assistance in USA. In Brazil we are the opposite, we run to the hospital. We go even for a minor problems, what is a problem.
It is not that simple. Very few places have chambers suitable for diving accidents, or available to the public for that length of time. And not all are staffed 24x7.
Yes, medical costs can be huge here, even for the insured. But offhand I know at least two grown women who wouldn't go to a hospital unless there was a broken bone sticking out if their limb.
Maybe for the most od the friends its more convenient to not to go to hospital rather than to go
Unfortunately, a lot of viewers are just looking for something to pick a part. And because of the type of videos your channel does it attracts a lot of people like that. No offense to the majority of your viewers that are just looking to be safer divers.
Ye should set up an anonymous incident reporting database where people even report something that could have gone wrong
Denial requires prior knowledge. So saying Im in denial because I didnt know I was bent. That's just not knowing.
I think it’s normal that people don’t go racing off to the hospital for every little thing. Being wiped out after a dive isn’t totally unusual. Add to that the period of recovery in the van. Honestly, I think even if I was in that situation now I don’t think I’d go to the hospital. The symptoms are just so vague! I mean, I wish I could say, “yeah now that I know this, I would totally go to the hospital” but i just really think I’d take a watch and wait approach.
Gotta get Suess on your safety team.
Just found out: a cave diver died in the Plura Cave in Norway today. All it said on the news alert on my phone is that the victim was an American citizen. You guys know anything?
I'm paused at 27:37 to chime in about Gareth's question: Why not go to the hospital on the way home? Despite Gus's earlier answer that insurance/money wasn't a factor I would counter that as Americans we are very hesitant to seek out medical attention unless something is really and obviously wrong. It may not be a conscious thought, but rather it is a cultural trait Americans. I feel like that's why Gareth kept asking, because it really is culturally ingrained to avoid doctors. "He was recovered" shows that hesitance to go to a doctor unless you have something clearly wrong that you can point at and say, "This is why we are here". I want to make it clear that I'm not judging Gus, Brian, or Woody for thinking this way, if anything I'm judging the American health care system for making so many of us hesitate when it comes to seeking medical attention (myself absolutely included)
This was great
im a pretty good decision maker, if my buddies are straight up ignoring those decisions... somethings gotta me wrong with me. trust your friends
Woody, I like my steaks well done too. ❤
Where is the orignal video to woody being "bent"
It's titled "Emergency MEDVAC after Cave Dive" and was posted about ten videos before this one. It should be easier to spot as its over an hour long.
ruclips.net/video/O7NsjpiPK7o/видео.htmlsi=ttZIqtI0sK2iPMWC
non diving-related question alert: Gus, are you wearing Audeze headphones?
I don’t even know what that is. 😂
@@DIVETALK 🤣 then no. they're really good headphones that get used in studios
and look just like yours
WHOA WHOA WHOA. I can't believe my ears, i'm utterly shocked and disgusted. I will never think of you the same wood. How dare you ruin steak like that
Any fool can be wise with hindsight.
Great video guys it's very insightful. I just love you guys at
extra well done steak? but why woody?
I'm no dive expert but extra well done is blasphemous lol
The biggest crime here is Woodys extra well done steak lol
Extra well done steak? Now I know woody is not human.😂
On a serious note, I'm really glad that woody made it through. It was an ordeal but many valuable lessons and changes can come out of it.
As a diagnostician, I appreciate the nuance in this discussion about symptoms. It’s always difficult to have insight into what your body is telling you, and it’s hard to admit something is wrong with one of your buddies! Thanks for adding your perspective Gareth.
I am going to say that it’s a hard stop that if a person needs O2, or goes on O2, even if only because of a “maybe, better to be safe” then the decision to go in for further evaluation has been made. Full stop.
100%
@@skydiverninetysix seems like an easy to understand threshold for sure
41:20 Spot on, Woody. I'm NOT a diver but love the educational & safety aspects of your vids. You guys have opened up a new world to me; a world of rebreathers, deco, Trimix, laying line, etc. & you present this material in a way that diver newbies/non-divers can comprehend. Your audience clearly isn't sick of these educational aspects cos your subscriber-ship keeps growing. GREAT VID btw! SOOO glad you survived to be able to tell the tale, Woody.
As a shrink, I truly appreciate Gareth’s insights. His clear explanations of variability in symptoms, common errors in decision making, and opportunities to use these understandings to make small but meaningfully tweaks to improve safety, just 👏🏻!
Former comm diver here. A little over 30 years ago, with thousands of dives already under my belt, a simple, open-circuit dive. First dive of the day... 50' for 60 minutes. Withing rec diving tables, safety stop, no issued during the dive.
Came up super fatigued. Bent over to take off a bootie and the world spun. Nausea and throwing up. Feeling like I wasn't getting air. A lot of the same symptoms as Woodie.
Before I could even think about what was going on...they had me on O2 and on the way to a hospital with a chamber. Maybe an hour trip, symptoms coming in waves, with periods where I felt fine. They knew we were coming, and within fifteen minutes of arriving at the chamber, we were pressurizing to 60'. It took that 15 minutes because they took a chest X-ray first. As soon as we "dove," there was instant relief. Tired from puking and extreme anxiety, but other than that, all the symptoms were gone.
I was diagnosed with a micro-rupture in the lungs that led to an air-gas-embolism. The diving physician (super-experienced, retired USN dive physician) told me that it happens, even on a perfect dive, especially if exertion is involved. The X-ray was looking for barotrauma, but it was likely a micro-rupture that wasn't visible on the films.
The crew I was with didn't screw around. I had just come up from a dive and was displaying possible dive-injury CNS-related symptoms. They didn't care that it could be this or that. There was A CHANCE that it was a dive injury, and the first thing they did was to get me to help.
Guys, this is hands down one of the best episodes I've seen. This is great content. The short lesson i learned in my very first deco class is "there's no such thing as an 'undeserved' hit, hemodynamics is far to complicated to make those statements, Woody is a prime example of what that would historically be called. He did EVERYTHING right and followed the dive plan and deco model and went further to additional conservancy. We've all read about symptom denial and how people will deny deny deny, but it's great to hear it 'first hand' from the horses mouth, how this experience played out. I'm glad everything worked out and Woody is on the mend. Great job with this episode. Garath was an excellent guest!
I believe, we as divers need to talk more about all these lessons. I loved this
I was glad to hear Woody say it's OK for them to learn a lesson from this. It's important to be able to recognize that even if 99 % of the criticism directed at you is unjustified there is still that 1% that needs to taken on board.
Gus I would like a dive buddy and a friend like you. You treated Woody wonderfully! You were there for him when he needed him. Then you learned from your experience. I watch both you and Woody so I can learn. I like your styles. ❤