For sure. When visiting Berlin I found myself using the S-Bahn way more than I did growing up in Munich. I mostly took the S-Bahn there when leaving the city.
I liked it when visiting many years ago, but as a tourist you run into the problem mentioned in the video: You want to take one of the trains towards downtown. You have lost your sense of direction through a complicated set of stairs. The next train is called a random German place name, like "Schwartzbergbrückenhof". This is not the end of any of the lines, since many trains don't go all the way to the end every time. The train leaves in 2 minutes, so you had better find Schwartzbergbrückenhof on a map or a timetable in one minute, or it is a 50/50 coinflip which way it goes. These days I have Google in my pocket, thankfully. 😄
Important to note that the world's first metro, the Metropolitan line, was intended to be the backbone of a Tokyo-style through running network (and that was how it worked up until about the 1910s).
and in a roundabout way today, as some of the tunnels that form the core of Thameslink were built as "widened lines" as part of Metropolitan specifically to use for through traffic. And on the other end large part of line to Amersham is shared with trains from Marylebone.
Oh yes! Their line originally extended way out into deepst Buckinghamshire with the intention of reaching Birmingham. The Met saw themselves not as a tube or metro line, but as one of the big boy long-distance railway companies (with which they had certain alliances and falling-outs), just with mutiple stations in London that happened to sit underground.
As a Berlin native, I'll have to say I like the fact that each different service has its own line number. No risk of confusion and getting into the wrong train (if your goal is in the suburbs), and if you are only going inside the city before the branches happen, you'll either remember "all trains eastward work for me" or remember the (short) list of line numbers which work (e.g. to go to Lichtenberg from the center, you can use S5, S7, S75). (Though today I was in a train of line 25, which at some point changed to become line 1, and they told everyone to get out and into another S25 train on the other side of the platform, even though the S1 was continuing the same direction for 5 more stops.)
I appreciate line numbers as well, but as a visitor to Berlin they are confusing to me. It would be much easier to have different number groups for the three (/four) trunk lines of the network, e.g. S11…19 Stadtbahn S21…29 Nord-Süd-Bahn via Friedrichstraße S31…39 Nord-Süd-Bahn via Hauptbahnhof S41…S49 Ringbahn (Maybe lift the first digit even one up to avoid collisions with future U-Bahn-numbers, now reaching up to U9 already…) Whereby lines with similar second digits could operate on the similar branches of the network, to some extent at least. Maybe this could even be harmonized with the overlapping RE-lines that also play a vital role in the city’s and even more in suburban traffic. In communication to passengers could be additionally use of terms like eastbound/westbound/northbound/southbound than the Destination names only. This would ease the use of that system for infrequent users as well as for frequent users sometimes using another line.
I think this is a local vs visitor thing. If you know the system well, more specificity is helpful and the extra learning time isn't a significant problem in the long run. If you're coming in from out of town, especially if you're navigating by app, it's quite confusing that there are multiple trains all going in the same direction
@@anschelsc I don't get why it is confusing. I open the app or plan, see I have to use either S7, S9, S5 or S3, and then I walk into the station, look on the signs with S7, S9, S5 or S3 and their corresponding direction, hop onto the train and leave on my target station. On which point happens the confusion? It's not even of interest if they all use the same track and platform, it would make no difference if they all used their own. I just follow the plan and the signs at the station.
@@vomm I guess it depends on the app. I've definitely had some show me only one line (whichever it thinks is coming soonest) when in fact there are many that will work equally well.
S-Bahn seems to be the model Australia (unofficially) adopted. They act like a metro in the inner-city, whilst providing fast transport to other areas of the city. I would say it's quite a flexible system. I don't even know if any Australian cities have a "one train downtown in the morning, one train home in the evening" service.
It’s downside is that there is so little of it, either through ideology or because full sized rail is expensive the only two full sized rail expansions in Sydney in my lifetime have been the eastern suburbs rail and Olympic park rail. In the meantime Sydney has more then doubled in size.
Bradfield (who designed Sydney's basic suburban/subway/S-Bahn-ish rail network) was a genius IMO. Most stuff-ups in Sydney have been the result of not adding to it sensibly (or at all). This system has trains running from one extremity of the suburban area via the city, to another (this can be about 80km).. Being used to this system, the RER/subway/suburban classification seems a bit artificial to me. Sydney has an unusually large urban sprawl. and there are 2 other sprawls nearby, so suburban (especially outer-suburban) tends to blur a bit with regional. Some intercity (Sydney/Newcastle/Wollongong) services operate more or less as suburban trains when they're within a sprawl. It does seem that whether trains are in tunnels vs above ground is less important than the way things do or don't interline, whether they are through-running, etc. So S-Bahn vs U-Bahn or Underground/Overground seems artificial, and isn't strictly followed even in the cities that have them. This is not to downplay the reasons why tunnels are used or not. And you have to use SOME system to classify things. Sydney has the advantage of the same gauge and electrical supply across the system and to do otherwise seems like lunacy to me. Unfortunately the Western Sydney Airport Metro will use a different voltage (for no great benefit and guaranteed inflexibility for the future).
@@mt-mg7tt Yeah, it's impressive how extensive Sydney's suburban rail network is. I'd agree with you that building a metro line as a spur out to the airport is an odd choice. They should have just built it as a branch of one of their suburban rail lines to allow for a one-seat ride all the way into downtown Sydney.
I think an really interesting case study would be the Ruhr area in Germany. Due to big cities (Dortmund, Essen, Bochum) being so close together there the S-Bahn is commonly used to travel between cities together with other regional rail like the RB trains (Regionalbahn) or the RE/RRX (express regional rail). At least in Dortmund the Stadtbahn (LRT) is used to travel from the suburbs to (and through) the city center, being a mix of overground (suburbs) and underground (city center) rail.
I've never really understood what the difference between S-Bahn and RB is. Living in Mainz and with the local S-Bahn System i can travel into Frankfurt and Darmstadt (S-Bahn Rhein-Main) and Kaiserslautern, Ludwigshafen, Mannheim, Heidelberg or Karlsruhe (S-Bahn Rhein-Neckar).
@@lukasrentz3238 If I understand correctly S-Bahns connect within big metropolitan areas (Rhein-Main, Rhein-Ruhr, Berlin, etc.) whereas RBs serve rural areas as well. RBs are less frequent and usually smaller I think.
@@nils2614 True, the S-Bahn Network doesn't connect to my Homevillage. Though RB and RE, which look to be similar sized to the S-Bahn, together serve it every 30 Minutes, similar to the S8 from Mainz down to Karlsruhe.
There isn't really any one definition (not even on what the S stands for...), which makes it so hard to narrowly define. Generally they run on mainline tracks (at least outside the city proper), stop often (usually every single stop), offer higher capacity than regional trains (but less than subways) and run reasonably frequently (more frequently than regional trains but less frequently than subways). But for every single point you can find S-Bahn systems that do it differently and so on. It's basically a German-speaking category for "train category that isn't anything else".
@@Sp4mMe Yeah that part about the "S" is very true. I always thought it stood for "Schnellbahn" but apparently it can also mean "Stadtbahn" or "Stadtschnellbahn", which is weird because "Stadtbahn" is genereally understood to be a different kind of train service. Combine that with the regional differences and it's a really confusing system ^^'
Vienna wasn't mentioned here but it is interesting to note that the inner urban signage strategy has been changed on the S-Bahn main corridor to showing the "main branch terminus" instead of the actual terminal station (which is listed in small just below). This is a bit more confusing for those venturing beyond but a lot easier to understand for inner urban passangers or tourists. They are also starting now a massive upgrading process, taking place from 2024-2027. Stations will be enlarged to allow even bigger trains and the whole main corridor will be upgraded to the ETCS Level 2 train control system. This will enable a fully subway like 2 min frequency on the main corridor.
Zurich also also a numbering scheme like in Berlin where almost each terminus to terminus line has an individual number, and yes that's quite practical for suburbanites. For travel in the core of the network (city of Zurich and bordering communes) this numbering scheme can become quite overwhelming having numbers going from 2 to 23. That's why I like to split them up in 4 main groups like the Paris RER depending on which Zurich main station substation they leave from. Group L: S2, S8, S14, S19: Bahnhof Löwenstrasse, platforms 31-34, Group M: S3, S5, S6, S7, S9, S11, S12, S15, S16, S20, S23: Bahnhof Museumsstrasse, platforms 41-44, Group SZU: S4, S10: SZU station, platforms 21-22, Group H: S21, S24, S25, S42: main hall, platforms 3-18. The remaining lines which are those that do not serve Zurich main station are split up in other groups. Group E: S13, S40: Einsiedeln, Group W: S26, S29, S33, S35: Winterthur, Group B: S36, S41: Bülach. Lines S17 and S18 are not included in this scheme as they run on meter gauge (Zurich tram tracks) and are more like interurban trams. Furthermore they do not share the tracks with other S-Lines like a S-Bahn usually does. On a map the individual groups would each get a line and then split up (like the Paris RER map) but in case of returning on the same tracks (like between Effretikon and Winterthur) branches from the same group would be shown separated to avoid confusion
13:05 The Hamburg S-Bahn "loop" is really more two seperate city corridors (basically what you said at 11:44) than an oceanian-style loop, since the services take either the northern (elevated) or the southern (tunneled) section through the city and then carry onwards into the suburbs Edit: 14:50 I'm way more used to services being named differently and find it less confusing, even if it is "just" a branch. My guess is that tourists struggle less with distinct and unique numbering aswell since you won't hop on a service assuming that it will terminate at a certain station and then finding out that it doesn't. Probably just a matter of taste and being german-brained lol. Would love this being discussed in another video
I exactly wanted to reply the same, that the Hamburg S-Bahn just looks like a loop on the map but it isn't one. To be precise it's worse than that, as S-Bahn Hamburg does exactly the oppisite of running through trains: S11 ist changing directions (coming from Blankenese to continue to Dammtor and vice versa) and lines S2 and S 31 use Altona as their terminus, drive into the siding and start their journey in the opposite direction. S1 and S 3 are apparently the only lines using Altona as a through station, but not as a loop.
I also wanted to comment on the numbering system and that I find our "German S-Bahn numbering system" more logical and useful. How often did I look at the holy RER, at NY subway maps or networks from China or Japan and thought to myself: ".....WTF, where does this line go? Look at RER C, that doesn't make sense!" As you said, maybe we're just too german-brained and a more concise system is for whatever psychological reason supposed to be more helpful. Personally I can't get used to it though ^^
Well, RM already has proven in his former video that he most likely was never in Hamburg - he called our system "efficient". Yes, efficient in the way that it takes often twice the time with the train to get somewhere than with a car and so efficient that we have 24m long busses overcrowded... And yes, the Hamburg inner city line isn't a loop and also never called that way. That's especially as most people will never when they for example use the Verbindungsbahn from Hbf to Altona then change to the City tunnel, but more likely to Pinneberg or Wedel (also the train from Verbindungsbahn stops at the same platform as the outbound trains, NOT the inbound ones for the city tunnel), and when I want to get fast from Holstenstraße to for example Reeperbahn I would either take the bus or go to Sternschanze and then St. Pauli, as it would take me longer from Holstenstraße via Altona to Reeperbahn (and I would have to change the platform too). Also the rerouting of the lines will NOT change that, also then the S2 and later S4 will end in Altona and not make a loop
As a Berliner nothing beats a Ring (loop) with a cross in the middle. Brings you almost everywhere. As far as i know Berlin-Brandenburg pursue a regio network in the form of a star for coming growth.
If you're trying to compare a London system to an S-bahn then you have the Thameslink portion of GTR -Runs very frequent high density service through a city centre tunnel -Culminates from many small branches on both sides of the river (MML and various ECML on the north) -Runs through services, many of which are suburban The only thing that is slightly different is the fact it operates the non suburban services between London and Brighton together with Southern, although these are still mainly commuter services serving the wider London commuter belt...
As well as Brighton (which has the Bedfords stop at all stops south of Gatwick, and the Cambridges only stop three times), there's the 40km/25 mile non-stop section between Finsbury Park and Stevenage, that would give those services an RE rather than S label in the Germanic world with its neat little boxes approach.
You could say the same about the Elizabeth Line, and there are proposals to extend it somewhat so, for instance, trains could be run from Milton Keynes via a short section of new line to Old Oak Common.
@@TheEulerID This Milton Keynes proposal was scrapped over 5 years ago due to poor value... Thameslink branches to a much greater extent (especially southwards) as while Crossrail only has two branches on either end, Thameslink has 2 on the north and atleast 5 (Sutton loop counted as 1) south of the river
While major private railway lines and metro lines in Tokyo are forming network with "through running" operation, JR network does "German model" with Ueno Tokyo line and "Paris model" with Yokosuka Sobu rapid line (tunnel between Shinagwa and Kinshicho).
The fact that Ueno-Tokyo Line is somehow one line that is made out of Utsuonmiya line and various other lines all somehow combined together has confused me for an entire year. Comparing it to the S-Bahn finally clears it up
@@frafraplanner9277 It took me about ten visits to Tokyo to understand through running and take it into account when getting around the city. There are very few maps which make it obvious what is going on. The line from Narita to Haneda for example - three companies with through running, each barely revealing what happens to the same train when it's outside their section. You have to be a detective to realise how this "line" really works.
Think a reason that JR has less through-running with Tokyo's Metro & _Toei_ is that JR rolling stock is slightly wider (~2.95m) & thus it needs special narrowbody-versions (e.g. E233-2000) of its rolling stock (2.8m wide) to fit into the Metro & _Toei_ tunnels
Great video! You should make a video on Philadelphia’s SEPTA regional rail, it’s one of the best built out s-bahn systems in the US, especially for a city of its size. SEPTA has a lot of flaws though, particularly in its inner-city services, but the regional rail is actually quite spectacular and very useful!
Double Decker S-Bahn trains are also a thing in some German systems, like Dresden where the S-Bahn very heavily uses the tracks built for regional and long distance service
Was going to mention the Dostos that do a lot of S-Bahn services in Dresden, but they also don't necessarily strictly follow the S-Bahn model of cities in former West Germany.
I really love these educational videos that make us learn more fundamental topics and a break from updates about ongoing projects (although I love those too). I hope you will make a video one day where you will address the different types of public transit like buses and trams and which ones are more suitable to a specific situation.
Thanks Reece for a superb video. I would agree that the London Overground is not really an S-Bahn. The Elizabeth line is closely analagous to a Parisian RER. The London Thameslink line is arguably like a gigantic version of the Zurich S-Bahn, with trains running out to Brighton, Cambridge and Peterborough. The latter is 122 kms. from London. Two points about Zurich. The central section Oerlikon-Stadelhofen- Hauptbahnhof-Hardbruck-Altstetten is treated by Zurichers as a metro-style line, just like many other German-speaking cities. On busy routes out to places such as Winterthur, Wetzikon and Dietikon, trains are (at least) every 15 minutes.
in general the berlin S-Bahn is really what he calls an "RER" even though the Berlin S-Bahn was the original one. RER is really more of an original S-Bahn than anything else.
@@cooltwittertag I think the Berlin S-Bahn is more a train-sized metro than an actually S-Bahn. It is not specifically fast, nor does it provide significant connections to the sourrounding suburbs. Its most value lies in inner-city connections. The biggest differences to the Berlin U-Bahn are only technical (other workrules, other power-system) but besides that it serves quite similar tasks in the city. If you look at the history, the system itself was invented at a time, where cities like Charlottenburg, Schöneberg, Neukölln etc. where independent cities. It was just because of the war and the greater-berlin-law, that caused the situation that the electric S-Bahn was fully inside the city borders at it's opening. In Germany there are way more systems like Munich, Stuttgart, Frankfurt, Leipzig, that are way junger and do more stand for the modern S-Bahn which connects several branches in the suburbs to a central city tunnel which itself operates more like a subway than a regional rail corridor and even has a similar station density.
This is what happens here in Munich a lot. And the metro here also have core routes, i.e. U1/U2, U4/U5 and U3/U6 operate together in the city centre in each case. If there is something under construction, like the Sendlinger Tor station (that is under extensive renovation and expansion work and under full operation), so you have the disruption affecting two lines at the same time. Since we are here still accustomed of having disruptions and construction service here, both the MVG and the S-Bahn München (DB) are not afraid of closing important stations or even whole sections for a long period of time in such important areas. The frequency Deutsche Bahn blocks the S-Bahn core route here is really insane. But I still love our public transportation here in Munich!
For English speakers, it's quite simple in Germany: S is suburban, U is urban. That's not how it was originally meant, but it nevertheless is correct in practice.
I agree 100% with Mexico City being an example of the simplest of suburban systems. I’ve felt for years that the solution for the huge number of people traveling between the City and State of Mexico is a RER style run through suburban network. Excellent video BTW.
Tokyo's through-running trains proved to be a bit of a nightmare to deal with because some subway lines use 1,435 mm gauge, some subway lines use 1,372 mm gauge and many subway lines use the 1,067 mm gauge. Trying to integrate them all together became quite a challenge, but the results have been spectacular, particularly the _F-Liner_ that connects the nortthern suburbs of Tokyo in Saitama Prefecture all the way to Yokohama.
I think London Overground is more like a suburban train that is more looping around London using the existing infrastructure of the old rail corridors or even old Underground lines. So I would categorize London overground more like a Transellien service from Paris having some tunneld sections with a strange looping alignment. By the way, please do a video about Transellien services from Paris. Because transellien services are even bigger than RER.
The Transilien services are just a classic suburban train that ends in a city center Terminal (except line U that ends in La Défense interchange station). He mentioned, this type of transit at the begining.
@EK 12 yea I said that London overground is stranger Transellien version. Because many of the overground services are ending at big termilnals and transport hubs in London such as Euston or Liverpool Street or Clapham Junction. That's why I would compare it with transellien rather than an S-bahn system because for most of its leaght is on the surface level. Of course the difference between transellien and London overground is that transellien is not looping around Paris
@EK 12 But I would say that in both cases those systems were usually created as update versions of the previous suburban rail corridors. With let's say some improvements of the infrastructure and stations. For example transellien was created in 1998 us an more frequent service with more stations. A let's say more improvement version of the previous suburban rail lines or TER services.
I just love that you let us all geek out about transit. I'm lucky to have travelled the world and riding local metros is high on my list. A friend of mine is a driver for Sydney Trains, he lets me come along in the cab to Wolli Creek and Berowra. "This train will stop at…Nothing!"
I gotta add to the São Paulo talk: the last functioning tram line was deactivated and demolished 1968, and we had no new lines since. In 2019, during refurbishing works in the downtown area, they found some of the old tracks buried under asphalt and concrete, which also got removed. There is an ongoing proposal of reintroducing LRT/tram lines to the city, but the pushback from NIMBYs is quite strong, and people also believe such tracks would further disrupt the already really horrendous traffic in the city because of the righr-of-way required for them to work. These lines would VASTLY help the city because the progress with underground transit has been horrendously slow as well (besides the REALLY fast airport transit line construction, the other lines barely get a new station per year). We will see how things will go! Edit: there are already BRT lines in the entire metro area (São Paulo and neighboring cities) so "right of way" isn't new to anyone there, and buses tend to get crowded in the entire metro area so there IS demand for mass transit! Perhaps people just need to be educated to help push for better investment.
Interesting. Can a tram or LRT use the right of war of a BRT? I feel like it wouldn’t be easy nor cheap, but a LRT feels like a good compromise in a big, dense city. BRTs are fine and everything, but , diesel is diesel at the end of the day, and rubber tires need to be replaced often.
We human beings have this slightly annoying obsession with categorizing everything into very rigid categories. Which in a way it can be really helpful for us to navigate day-to-day in new situations, but also makes us a bit limited and close minded to new or different concepts. Each city/region develops their own transit options according to its own needs and characteristics (geography, population, economical factors, etc). It's not that important what it's called, only that it serves a purpose. It's really ambiguous what an S-bahn or RER is. The different RER services in Paris are very different among themselves. And look at S-bahns: Berlin, Bremen, Hamburg, Zurich, Zug, Copenhagen - these are quite different to each other, there's barely any single characteristic that fits all of them apart from being trains that somehow serve urban areas. So forget the labels and take systems for what they are in reality, detached from labels. Some of these are simply collections of different lines and services, Zurich S-bahn being a great example of a diverse system. In the case of the London Overground it's neither an S-bahn nor a RER. Nowadays it's a collections of different urban lines that serve London without running through city center. The London Overground is best understood when one looks at its history and development. When the original London Overground was created it was a condensation of 3 or 4 lines, some mainline, some used by the London Underground, in order to create a loop around the city center that would complement the radial lines (London Underground and British Rail). This loop or collection or arches runs mostly through Zone 2, so it runs within London but around the central Zone 1. For context London goes into Zone 9 in crowns, so even Zone 2 is pretty "central". A couple of branches / extremities of the arches run briefly further out into zone 4/5, and this is what could be seen as S-bahn, but it was a very small part of a mostly Zone 2 service. It is super helpful for Londoners to go around town and reach a few important attractions. After the first loop, throughout the years Transport For London started to take over some lines/services from mainline rail operators, getting some more arches and some radial lines from the suburbs that terminate at terminals in zone 1, so lines with very different characteristics from the OG Ldn Overground, but they ended up included in the same London Overground mode. Therefore, repeating myself from above, what we have today is simply a collections of different urban lines that serve London without running through city center like the Ldn Underground does (EDIT: and at lower frequencies than the Underground).
Categorization is a great way of trying to seek the common elements of different systems, its about creating mental models and systems for learning! There are certainly more common elements from system to system than I think you give credit for . . .for example Zurich's use of locomotives which I mention is quite unusual compared to other systems!
I even laughed internally all the time when RM called the Berlin S-Bahn network a "suburban rail network", as it's NOT a suburban rail network, it don't even calls itself that, S-Bahn comes from "Stadtbahn" in Berlin and also in Hamburg the only suburban parts are to Pinneberg, Wedel and Stade, the rest ist inside Hamburg (and with Wedel you can even say that it never leaves the urbanized area of Hamburg, as Wedel is urbanly fused with Rissen). The S don't say anything. The S- in the case of Hamburg stands for "Schnellbahn", in Berlin for "Stadtbahn", in Munich, Frankfurt and Nuremburg for "Suburban rail", in the Ruhrgebiet, Dresden and Leipzig it's more a replacement for the RBs (the same goes for Switzerland), Bremen calls it RS, in Freiburg it's literally a Diesel-RB renamed S-Bahn, and in Saarbrücken it's the Straßenbahn (yes, they literally gave a Tram the S-Numbering). It's the same as the German "U-Bahn" can mean a metro, a Stadtbahn-Tram or even, look at NRW, normal trams that have tunneled sections.
@@acmenipponair That pretty much explains how S-Bahn in Germany means that they have nothing in common besides being on rails. It isn't even exclusively urban, the Regio S Bahn in Bremen is basically just a new name for the existing regional train network that goes into surrounding towns. Part of it goes 50+ km outside the urban area. Basically the category of everything that can't be put into any category. So if "S-Bahn" means it's a rail vehicle for passenger transport (because that is the only thing they have in common) than the London Underground, the NY Subway, and basically every train network is also S-Bahn.
Cologne can have in future a loop in their S-Bahn. The stations could be: Central (Stadtbahn 5, 16, 18), Hansaring (12, 15), Westbf (3, 4, 5), Aachener Straße (Übergang 1), Südbf (9), Bonner Wall (5, 17), Poll (7), TH Köln, Trimbornstraße (Übergang 1), Deutz (1, 3, 4, 9), Central.
@@RMTransit If you would do really research, you would know that. There are even track layouts of the Hamburg networks on the net and there you can easily see that you simply cannot without a directional change get from the City Tunnel to the Verbindungsbahn. And the change would have to happen in the most overcrowded station of Germany, the Hamburg Hauptbahnhof.
Would you ever cover the Greater Kuala Lumpur/Klang Valley network in Malaysia? I think it's a very underrated system that's opening a new line soon next year!! I really want to see your praises and criticisms of the system
Good video. The one thing I disagree with is your thoughts on naming routes. I find naming routes that use the same tracks in the center but go different places needlessly confusing. The first time I was in Boston, I was completely baffled by the green line, and the fact that they are all called the same line, yet all have different termini on both ends. I think the way the Washington Metro or the Zurich S-bahn does it is ideal, with each service getting a different name, and glancing at a map making it clear exactly where every train is going, without having to check the departure board or the front of the train.
Well, I would say in that case he is typically american continent biased. He is just used to that system. I would be really annoyed by that system. And even in London they now want to get rid of calling the Overground just overground or by the line they run on, but give them service numbers. (The naming of the Underground is less confusing, as outside of the Metropolitan line a Picadelly line train will most likely always use the same route.)
In Systems like the Munich S-Bahn it absolutely makes the most sense to label each "branch" as it's own line. Because most of the route is just served by one line. It just makes sense that for all those passengers towards one of these branches (by far the biggest share of passengers) they know which line to take. But I think it's also a good approach to have an additional label for the high frequency core like the Vienna S-Bahn does it
Very interesting how naming a line based on its final destinations is confusing to you. :D When i was in London, i found it more difficult to navigate the transit system because you have to look twice in which direction the Bakerloo Line (for example) runs. In the end, you have to doublecheck where the train terminates; especially when you have something like the Elizabeth Line (Heathrow and Reading in one direction and Woolwich and Abbey Wood in the other).
Great video. Would really like to see one about the Frankfurt U and S Bahn. Also Frankfurt Central is pretty impressive considering all different regional services😊
If is an essential part of the very concept of a German (not Swiss) S-Bahn that it is designed for seamless integration with urban systems, in larger cities typically an U-Bahn. It is therefore intentional that the S-Bahn does not have network for the inner city but only one or maybe two central sections. This sections provide the interconnect to the U-Bahn system. In Frankfurt S-Bahn and U-Bahn even share platforms. Part of the concept is also that the S-Bahn has an integrated fare system with U-Bahn, tram and bus so you can travel on a single ticket through the entire system, which eases interchange. It is unlikely that the Elizabeth Line tunnel in London will ever take on traffic from other lines. After just a bit more than a year of operation, it is already close to its theoretical capacity limit with trains every 2.5 minutes in the central section between Whitechapel and Paddington.
Yeah, it's so useful and practical that it suffers the fate of RER lines : instant success, nearing or at saturation in a much shorter time frame than expected and quickly requiring service increases and/or train capacity increases to cope with the astonishingly high induced demand. London could use at least another RER-like line, will we see Crossrail 2 in a not so distant future ? I sure hope so !
I have a whole folder full of heavy rail systems. Including the S-Bahn. RER, Servizio Ferroviario Metropolitano, Rodalies, Cercanías, CP Urbanos, S-Trein, SKM, Esko, BHÉV, S-Tog, Pendeltag, Beovoz, Mamaray, Proastiakos, some austrailian systems, some new sealandic systems, REM, GO Rail, LIRR, Metro North, Metra, MARC, VRE, TRI Rail, Metrolink, Metrotrén and that's not even all!
i would love to see you tackle the stuttgart railway system (and how you include the infamous new S21 tracks and what you think of them) i think using destinations as line names is def more practical for locals and when lines regularily end at different stations. "Line 2 terminating at xy" is longer, but would be more easy for non locals.
The swiss SBahns do not need the frequency, because in the areas where the frequency is needed many lines share the same route. So even if there is only one S6 from Oerlikon to Zurich main station every 30mins, there is defacto a connection about every 5 mins. Counted together, every route is probably a minimalistic minimal viable trainline, but as a collective network it becomes one of the strongest networks I know, considering that Zurich isn't a city that large.
Now i would like it if you would take a look at the mumbai suburban railway and place it in a category. The system has carried the entire city like a metro at the city part and long distances in the suburbs. Its a interesting system which surely needs a mention
I'd be interested to hear what you think about the Dresden S-Bahn. It shares some of the features with Zürich which make it an odd-ball in your opinion (frequency, double-decker train usage)
Ooh Liverpool’s Merseyrail has a small loop too! The Wirral Line heads into Liverpool, stops at James Street, then Liverpool Central (where it meets the Northern Line), Lime Street (which is the Main Line terminus), Moorfields (meeting the Northern Line again) and finally back to James Street then beyond.
MBTA is Boston is in the process (although they have been dragging their feet about Electrification) of converting to an S-Bahn style operation probably starting with the Providence, Stoughton, and Fairmount lines since those lines are already partially Electrified
What you need to note: Many regions in Germany for instance have something called a "Verkehrsverbund", basically an organization where multiple companies have agreed to work together which allows for much more categorized services. Example Berlin: Within the city (tarif zone A, anything within the s-bahn ring) you predominantly get around by bus, tram and subway. This is the city center. Then there's tarif zone b which is still within city limits but not the immediate commercial city center. Here you mostly get around by a combination of Bus, S-Bahn and U-Bahn (Trams are a bit of a weird topic in this regard, as they were the main transport in east Berlin). You usually use the S-Bahn to get from Tarifzone B into the city center quickly. S-Bahn usually are on a 10 minute service, although depending on the line and the time of day it could increase to a 20 or 30 minute service. Then there's tarif zone C which is the "Greater Berlin Area" so to speak. Anything outside the city limits but within the limits of the VBB Verkehrsverbund. Only a S-Bahn trains run here But you can still use all the other modes of transport (regional train[RB,RE], and Busses and other modes offered) to get around with regional trains offering an even faster way into the city center. Yes, these usually only run once every hour but as most lines share the tracks you often get at least 30 minute services. no matter where you live within the VBB zone as soon as you reach a trainstation you'll have a 30-35 minute ride tops to reach the city center.
In former East German areas the S-Bahn kinda intermingles with the regional trains, and you might even see locomotive hauled Dostos (big double decker cars) serving S-Bahn services while smaller EMU trains are serving the Regional routes.
Living in a village of 10k inhabitants alongside a main line just north of the Bavarian state capital city of Munich, a city which S-Bahn service map you showed here several times in the video, I'm connected to the city via both the S-Bahn service running on a 20 minute schedule, and the bus which could take me to the next town in Munich County from where on the subway would get me into the city as well. 3 S-Bahn service commuter trains per hour per direction isn't that great, but kind of good enough for a place beyond the Munich city limits and beyond Munich County. Few years ago I live in our county town of 45k inhabitants where the station was the terminus of the S-Bahn service commuter trains and was a through-running station for all other passenger trains, from regional to regional express trains and international regional express trains
Thanks for this video! I should note that Metro-North does not stop at Penn Station in New York (your graphic showed that it does), so if you’re transferring from Metro-North to NJTransit, you have to take 2 subways to go from Grand Central to Penn Station! There is a plan to extend Metro-North to Penn Station by 2027 though. (Fun fact: This used to be the case with LIRR too, but service to Grand Central started earlier this year)
the overground is also TfL very slowly acquiring pre-existing urban and suburban routes into their control for one reason or another. The 'original' or 'true' overground route are the orbital rings in my view, that's the remit for the project and provides a very useful way to go between inner-suburbs or connect to other trains to outer suburbs without getting involved with the centre. The Watford DC and Lea Valley lines are traditional radial suburban lines that dont really interact with the orbital overgound lines and don't really have much to do with each other, i always assumed they took over the Lea Valley lines so that TfL have control over the service that may one day be replaced with Crossrail 2, they did the same thing with TfL rail and crossrail 1
I suggest you to take a look at the suburban rail in Milan, the "passante ferroviario": the concept it's more or less like the rer but in my opinion it could have been used in a much more efficient way. Like now it is just a very expensive urban tunnel, that could be used by a metro increasing capacity and ridership, but is instead used by regional trains, on which most of the riders get off at the regular train station, which are more connected to the local transport.
S-Bahn Stuttgart with the station Schwabstraße would have been a perfect example of a loop station for unbalanced infrastructure. I also love how the term S-Bahn has kinda been adopted in the english language.
The thing about London’s transport network is that it really wasn’t designed. It just happened somewhat chaotically over time as a bunch of separate railways that were eventually integrated. It’s actually amazing how well it does work considering what a sprawling mess it is!
I'm surprised that you didn't bring up Karlsruhe, which has one of the largest S-Bahn/Tram networks and also uses a dual-system where the trains can run on both the city network but also the regional train network.
Milan has a system that is a mix between rer Paris and s-bhan berlin. It has a tunnel (passante ferroviario) with a lot of lines (linee S) having different frequency (but combined in a way that general frequency in the center of the city is 3 minutes during the rush hours) and a semi-ring used for other linee s and regional trains (indicated by an R). Both the linee S (suburbans) and regionali R (regional trains) use the same corridors creating a kind of exstended regional metro line. It is very interesting and efficient, especially because the connections with its 5 subway lines (metropolitana) are well distributed, not to mention airports shuttle trains, trolley, trams and buses... In Milan using the car for commuters it is absolutely not convenient neither efficient.
right the name is also a Berlin invention S-Bahn = Stadtschnellbahn and its the oldest system and also that one that is the model for definations about "Real S-Bahn Systems" or systems that a only Branded as one.
@@RMTransit While it's pretty distinct, it in alot of ways feels like a metro with a ground level extension to the suburbs, the style of the trains looks alot like a metro train, the frequency is kinda between tram and rail like, it is pretty heavily tunneled and the routing seems very similar to a metro in some places, except the way they converge in the center. Also it kinda feels weird to me how every train service that touches a city is inmediately called S-Bahn instead of suburban rail cuz that feels more like a German "brand" and implies using the same style of services, routing etc. For example the Prague Esko while sharing some similarities runs alongside normal trains and there's 2 main hubs in the city and few exchange points, while some of the lines never even go to Prague, instead running service between multiple bigger cities in the region.
@@RMTransit The only part that distinguish Berlin S-Bahn from a Metro is that the Operator is the DB! In fact even the trainsets of the Berlin S-Bahn and U-Bahn Wide body in the 2000s were build by the same standards, the only difference is the voltage they use.
The overground is a collection of rapidly constructed railways, branded and operated by TfL for better integration with the tube etc. There isn't really anything special about overground routes compared to the rest of the messy suburban rail lines in London.
Most suburban lines in London run from one end of the city to the other and onwards to other destinations outside the city with the exception of a few lines such as the Mid-Kent line. The overground operates almost entirely in London and if not, terminates close to the border.
While I'm not familiar with the system in Zürich, the S-Bahn in Bern is basicaly a regaional train system that was pressaganged into pulling double duty as a suburban commuter rail. For example, the S1 starts in the town of Thun, then runs through Bern and on to the city of Fribourg (not to be confused with Freiburg in Germany) running for more than an hour one way. All things considred, the system works pretty well and with the high capacity trains and generaly good connections the half-hour service isn't an issue.
All the future plans we have in London are pointedly not for S-Bahn style through services, which I think is pretty obvious given the horrific mess of our suburban and commuter rail networks spread over different networks and operators. Instead the two directions seem to be more RER style cross-city high capacity railways (Crossrail 2 would be a SW-NE axis giving the relief to the Piccadilly and Victoria lines that the Liz line gives to the Central), and the metroisation of South London's commuter network, which is all already mostly third rail electrified and really dense but unlike the north and east of the city is mostly in mainline railway operators' hands. These are natural future areas of expansion for the Overground - a mix of terminal and suburban orbital railways still within the city limits that go from disconnected and patterned poorly, to an integrated wayfinding and service patterns and reworked interchanges into the other networks. But that all said, it doesn't do the big step up to those European systems and build the infrastructure necessary for through-running, and given how far off Crossrail 2 seems and how little discussion there is of either TfL making more use of the Thameslink corridor, London really is gonna keep pushing the envelope for exactly how efficient and useable a transport network you can produce without actually building big new infrastructure more than once every 30 years or so lmao
As for the question "What is the London Overground?", does it really matter? It does what it does, and that doesn't change whether you label it "S-bahn", "Commuter Rail", "Suburban Rail", or anything else. It's not that rail systems must fall in some narrowly defined category to be useful.
13:43 "Even ones hauled by locomotives" is technically correct but viewers might assume that SBB would shunt the loco at the end of the line back to the front but that is not the case, all scheduled train services (that I know of have) a cab in a combined passenger/control car at the end of the train and it makes little difference if it was a MU or hauled by a locomotive in operations when turning the train around. EDIT: Some S-Bahn do have a loco at each end instead of a control car.
Berlin Ringbahn: it's only logical to label separately each of the two directions: clockwise S41, and counterclockwise S42. The attention to this kind of detail in Berlin (and generally in the nation) is admirable. What I agree in sentiment, however, is the tendency to sprout new line numbers, only to shelve them away (for future use): the U12 comes to mind, which leads me to thinking about the upcoming S21, because surely someone thought of S12 for a semblance of "consistency". Oh well / na ja ...
Funnily, the RER was initially branded as a metro for some years (regional express metro, they changed the name because the acronym means sh*t in French). But it shows that the RER (A & B at least) were designed just like any other metro line, just grand-scaled (high-frequency, fully grade-separated, GOA-2…)
The name was going to be MER (Metro Express Regional), before it opened. And when building the first phases of the central trunk for line A, they wanted for marketing purposes to include the first major stations served into the name : Métro Express Régional Défense Étoile, which acronym gives MERDE (sh*t in French). But the overall name wasn't going to keep stations' names in it so it would have reverted to MER, and as to avoid word play by press in case of service problems, like newspapers printing "MERdique" (sh*tty), they decided to replace the word Métro by Réseau (network) which would then give "RER". And the fun bit is that they didn't catch the acronym issue until after some large panel adds were erected around the building sites. There are historical bits of footage showing the panels advertising the near future opening of the Métro Express Régional Défense Étoile trunk.
Hi RMTransit, could you make a video on the Nuremberg Transit system. The city is unique because, it has driverless U-Bahns (I think it was one of the first in the world, I am not sure). I think that could be an interesting video.
in a sense it can be used that way, if you include the caltrain corridor up the peninsula. when the san jose extension is finished you should be able to transfer onto caltrain right at diridon, too!
@@ronakchakraborty3207 The original 1950s BART plan did have a loop around the Bay. It didn't happen because San Mateo and Santa Clara Counties voted against it. They said Caltrain was enough, and Santa Clara County wanted to spend the money on expressways instead. Since then the southwestern part has been extended SFO/Millbrae, and the southeastern part to San Jose, but there's a gap between the two.
London has both an S-Bahn and an RER: Thameslink and Crossrail respectively. The Overground is a Metro: if Tokyo can have two due to historical and political reasons, so can London.
Really interesting and nice to have everything broken down! It would be interesting to see a video about the regional connector project opening in Los Angeles this month, it seems somewhat of a Tokyo-style solution to through running trains from east to west while still connecting to the fully underground subway. Love your videos!
If you want a combined S-Bahn system then do Rhein-Main Rhein-Neckar because they intersect each other at Mainz Hauptbahnhof S-Bahn Rhein Main S8 Wiesbaden Mainz Hanau S6 S-Bahn Rhein Neckar Mainz Mannheim Worms. The New York Region NJ Transit and Philadelphia commuter rail systems SEPTA intersect each other at Trenton. I wonder if those style of intersections are common in the commuter train world
I'd say Mersey Rail in the Liverpool/Wirral/Merseyside area is the closest to an S-Bahn in England. It has a city centre tunnel and branches out into suburban areas.
If you want to be really cheeky you could say the east London line part of the Overground only is an S-bahn, with the central tunnel being the bit between wapping and the routes coming off going to Croydon/Clapham/New Cross in the south. but really you're right, it doesn't really fit the pattern
I would classify them as Madrid Cercanias. It has its own characteristics developed in its own historical context according to its own needs. It's really ambiguous what an s-bahn or a RER is, simply look at all the s-bahns in the Germanic countries and notice how different they are among each other: Zurich, Zug, Berlin, Hamburg, Bremen, Copenhagen, etc. If anyone tells me these all share the same characteristics they are not paying attention.
@@f.g.9466especially Berlin and Hamburg are different to the others as their S-Bahns were built considerably before all the others. Munich is what you'd consider a true modern S-Bahn
@@jan-lukas exactly. But then Zurich also stands out in its diversity. And within Switzerland you have both Zurich S-bahn (which includes a line to Zug) and the Zug Stadtbahn which is an S-bahn style train service.
In some German cities the S-Bahn isn't really a single collection of lines but a sprawling system of many lines almost even like systems within a system with multiple city centre tunnels and traditional suburban rail almost independent of one another but sharing a brand identity. They can even be spread across multiple cities - I'm thinking of the Rhine-Ruhr system. As for loops, another good example is the Merseyrail Wirral Line in Liverpool.
In Switzerland they in many cases simply renamed the former R-Lines into S-Lines to get rid of the Rs and now have mostly only Regional Express and S-Bahn.
S-Bahn, RER, London Overground, etc are frequent, heavy rail, urban metro passenger rail networks. Reece loves his confusing terminology for public transport.
Having been to Tokyo recently, I think it may have been interesting to also talk about the JR East commuter lines in the Tokyo area, since they provide an RER-like service, and are very often the most convenient way to travel within the city core as well. They use regular mainline EMUs, and travel quite far out from the centre, but they stop just as frequently as the subways, and operate with high service frequency and clockwork precision. As a tourist I found myself using the Chūō-Sōbu Line, Keihin-Tōhoku Line, Yamanote Line and Yokosuka Line way more often than any of the subways.
I used three of those lines that you just mentioned. Otherwise, I mostly just used the subway and the Seibu railway that was near my Airbnb. It’s all made easy by the IC Card. I feel the JR Rail Pass has become an absurd tourist scam in recent years after the price increase and the fact that JR is cheaper but not as convenient and more crowded than the subway.
@@trainsandmore2319 JR Rail Pass makes sense if you’re traveling around the country via Shinkansen since it’s so expensive. At least before the upcoming price increase, a round-trip between Tokyo and Kyoto basically made up the cost. If you’re staying within Tokyo, the cost of all the services is pretty negligible and the IC card is so seamless that it’s not worth even thinking about who operates a service.
@@trainsandmore2319 I did use the JR Pass, but it made a lot of sense for me since I travelled up and down the country, all the way from Sapporo to Fukuoka and back to Tokyo, so I saved money on just the shinkansen, never mind local trips. If I was only staying in Tokyo, I'd probably just use an IC card or look for combination tickets. The only places I visited by subway were Asakusa, Roppongi, and the airports (and for Narita, next time I'll probably take the JR Narita Express instead). For everything else, JR lines proved more convenient and quicker, so I would've used them without a JR Pass all the same.
5:31 well just like in Copenhagen we have like 6 stations where all but one S-Bahn lines stops which also gives the opportunity to spread out the transfers over more stations
One more classic 'loop', with an additional RER style tunnel (though quite short) is in Liverpool, where the Merseyrail system has a loop around the city centre for trains coming from the south and a tunnel across the loop from east to west
The fundamental characteristic of the London Overground is that its infrastructure was already there. It is an enterprise that gathers up existing dispersed and diverse infrastructure (mainly obscure freight bypasses) and uses branding to give an impression of unity that what is in reality a disparate collection of oddments
One of the great benefits of the North London Line was getting across London while avoiding Zone 1. When I lived in Camden Town I used the line regularly when I worked in Gunnersbury and later Hackney Wick. The amount of money I saved (and also the benefit of being in air con trains) was quite significant. The London Overground I mainly see as a commuter rail and there has been talk to put all of London’s commuter rail routes under the banner similar to the Network South East branding but that was used by British Rail in the decade prior to privatisation.
Arguably, especially considering what it braught, the overground is a strong brand and commitment on a standard local suburban(In the london sence where suburbs have highrise centers) rail operaitor. If an Overground goes through crossrail, it becomes an elizabeth line service. if it goes through the thameslink core, it becomes a thameslink service. If the overground started running larger, less frequent, more comfortable but expensive trains, then it whould make sence for it to be restructured into the local operators. In outer london some tubes run on the same tracks as mainline trains, the name of the service is just it's city center location and price.
"What is an S-Bahn?", but not explaining what the abbreviated term actually means. "S-Bahn" is derived either from "Schnellbahn" (fast railway), "Stadtbahn" (urban railway) or a combination of both "Stadtschnellbahn" (fast urban railway). Here in Vienna, where I live, is one of the only places officially using the complete term "Schnellbahn" instead of the abbreviation "S-Bahn". The abbreviation probably came about as usually the lines carry the names "S" + a number.
In Stuttgart you do end up doing more urban trips on the U-Bahn than the S-Bahn, but the central corridor does get a lot of urban traffic because most of the central corridor stations are also U-Bahn or bus hub stations. But yeah one of the most common modes of travel is commuting from one suburb to another with a transfer somewhere on the central line. There is also one set of lines that is really confusing to people not familiar with the system. In Böblingen you can take either the S60 Schwabstrasse or S1 Kirchheim to get to Schwabstrasse. But the S1 goes direct and the S60 loops around the city first. It is a common beginner mistake to get into the S60 when you want to get into the city even though it is primarily a suburban route.
14:50 why would that be silly? To me it makes the most sense: In general, the lines starting with the same number share a corridor (for example lines S45, S46, S47) and and on the map they are shown as a single line with branches. Having a different number for each branch makes sure, that you never get the wrong train. And the same colour of the lines and the fact that they start with the same number still shows that they share a corridor. So to me this is the best of both worlds.
Finally a video about categorization! < 3 14:50 "the silly obsession with naming every single different service pattern differently" ÎÎÎ I'd love to know how you would name them! (and no, i'm not being ironic, just to be clear : ) )
I can reccomed to look at the Ruhr region. Its a metropolitan region with several cities pretty close to each other witha wide variety of different connections. One of the longest "s-Bahn" is the combined S5/S8 from dortmund all the way to Mönchengladbach. Connection about 10 big cities on its way. We even have regional trains commuting from Hamm to duisburg etc. The connections in this region are awesome. You can nearly use about 5 different trains to get to the same destination. Its only downside is the high train frequency which is the reason for a lot of delays at least in the long distance train connections (ICE network)
Very good point about through running! Makes it seem a little silly that all GO lines terminate at Union, but I guess that's also a product of the current AM/PM directional scheduling
The Zurich S-Bahn System is getting upgarde to have 15minutes frequency across all the important directions. The needed infrastructure for this increase is planned and slowly getting built. But it will take some time. And in the end it needs to integrate with the other timetables.
There is no definition of what constitutes an S-Bahn network in Germany aside from two to three factors: 1. Defined departure times, e.g. every 10, 15, 20 or 30 minutes, that do not change randomly over the day but only during defined periods, e.g. before 7am and after 8pm, or shorter intervals on weekdays than on Saturdays and Sundays. 2. Integrated fare system so that passengers can change freely from S-Bahn to Underground or buses 3. Typically uses wide body, mainline style trains (so even the London District or Circle line trains could qualify as an S-Bahn, esp. given their heritage or beginnings as regular railways) In addition, some marketing clowns may just label any 1 train per hour service to Godknowswhere an S-Bahn service if they feel like it. Whether or not the S-Bahn lines use a single crosstown corridor/tunnel or multiple corridors or uses its own rails or runs on mainline rail networks is not relevant.
In London there is also that example from Mexico City as many of the national railway operators run services that leave London terminals and travel out into the suburbs and just over the borders into neighbouring counties, stopping at all the stations. I live about an hour away from London so I don’t have this service available to me, I live on the more regional part of the network but if you live closer to Greater London there is additionally what southeastern calls (last I checked) ‘metro services’ as well as trains coming from further into Kent that make less stops in London itself.
I think saying that Switzerland is doing minimum viable railways is overlooking just how much money Switzerland puts into it's railways, it's more that we maximise service on our already dense network.
Small correction, the Hamburg S-Bahn doesn't actually have a loop (as stated at 13:07) What looks like a loop is simply the northern above ground route and the southern city tunnel, with each of the main lines (S1, S2, S3) going through the tunnel, while splitting half their capacity to use the northern route under the designation S11, S21, S31, and usually either go to a different branch later down the line or terminating early compared to the main lines. This is about to be changed though, by adding one additional line and then sending 2 south and 2 north. However there is no and will be no line that services both the northern route and the city tunnel, using at as loop.
Talking about S-bahns, it would have been interesting to hear about Moscow’s MCD lines, which include 5 diameters made of 10(12 with branches) suburban lines. System is growing and about to build a new tunnel under very center of Moscow, connecting 3 big rail terminals to another terminal with 2 extra stations with interchanges to two metro station each. Nice video)
I personally find the single-service designations quite nice, but maybe that’s because I’m from New York where we beat it to death (and absolutely need it from all the interlining). It makes it very clear what train you need to take, unlike London where there’s a crazy mix of services on one designated “line”. In many cities (like Munich) where it acts almost like a subway and the central tunnel is only in the city center, it makes it more clear as to where you’ll end up. It really made my trips to Berlin and Munich feel like a seamless transition, though the two designations for different Ringbahn directions was a bit confusing (but they do have helpful direction markers on a lot of the wayfinding/signage).
Zürich is even more streching the definition of S-Bahn then mentioned in the video. The lines S17 and S18 run on meter gauge and are conected to the tram network while the rest of the network is normal gauge and is conected to the main rail network And there are some lines like S13, S26, S41 etc. that don‘t even come close to the main city
Which just demonstrates how silly it is to try to categorize things in a rigid way. It's just a public transit network. Being managed under the same umbrella for efficiency, and each piece of the network has its own characteristics optimized to different challenges each section has. Geography is varied around the world and solutions developed organically in different ways for different cities/regions.
@@jan-lukas and they do, with the Zurich S-bahn they get trains that take them out of town, trains that are usually on time and on regular patterns. They shouldn't expect that a completely different city would have a transit system that operates exactly the same way. Labels don't translate into what I would call reliability. Metros can be very unreliable too.
At least the Berlin S-Bahn is quite convenient for travel within the city, and some of the lines don't actually reach (much) beyond the city limits.
For sure. When visiting Berlin I found myself using the S-Bahn way more than I did growing up in Munich. I mostly took the S-Bahn there when leaving the city.
Yes! Also, Ringbahn is 100% city-line
@@JIinuXI would say lines like S47 and S85, as well as maybe S75 are „city lines“, because they‘re not leaving Berlin at all.
@@mijos3 Most lines goning not very far outside city limits.
I liked it when visiting many years ago, but as a tourist you run into the problem mentioned in the video: You want to take one of the trains towards downtown. You have lost your sense of direction through a complicated set of stairs. The next train is called a random German place name, like "Schwartzbergbrückenhof". This is not the end of any of the lines, since many trains don't go all the way to the end every time. The train leaves in 2 minutes, so you had better find Schwartzbergbrückenhof on a map or a timetable in one minute, or it is a 50/50 coinflip which way it goes. These days I have Google in my pocket, thankfully. 😄
Important to note that the world's first metro, the Metropolitan line, was intended to be the backbone of a Tokyo-style through running network (and that was how it worked up until about the 1910s).
That is so cool
Yep! Very good point
and in a roundabout way today, as some of the tunnels that form the core of Thameslink were built as "widened lines" as part of Metropolitan specifically to use for through traffic. And on the other end large part of line to Amersham is shared with trains from Marylebone.
The Metropolitan line start as underground in 1863 will before coming a 'urban metro' network from 1880 well before any Tokyo 'style' system.
Oh yes! Their line originally extended way out into deepst Buckinghamshire with the intention of reaching Birmingham. The Met saw themselves not as a tube or metro line, but as one of the big boy long-distance railway companies (with which they had certain alliances and falling-outs), just with mutiple stations in London that happened to sit underground.
As a Berlin native, I'll have to say I like the fact that each different service has its own line number.
No risk of confusion and getting into the wrong train (if your goal is in the suburbs), and if you are only going inside the city before the branches happen, you'll either remember "all trains eastward work for me" or remember the (short) list of line numbers which work (e.g. to go to Lichtenberg from the center, you can use S5, S7, S75).
(Though today I was in a train of line 25, which at some point changed to become line 1, and they told everyone to get out and into another S25 train on the other side of the platform, even though the S1 was continuing the same direction for 5 more stops.)
I appreciate line numbers as well, but as a visitor to Berlin they are confusing to me. It would be much easier to have different number groups for the three (/four) trunk lines of the network, e.g.
S11…19 Stadtbahn
S21…29 Nord-Süd-Bahn via Friedrichstraße
S31…39 Nord-Süd-Bahn via Hauptbahnhof
S41…S49 Ringbahn
(Maybe lift the first digit even one up to avoid collisions with future U-Bahn-numbers, now reaching up to U9 already…)
Whereby lines with similar second digits could operate on the similar branches of the network, to some extent at least. Maybe this could even be harmonized with the overlapping RE-lines that also play a vital role in the city’s and even more in suburban traffic.
In communication to passengers could be additionally use of terms like eastbound/westbound/northbound/southbound than the Destination names only. This would ease the use of that system for infrequent users as well as for frequent users sometimes using another line.
I think this is a local vs visitor thing. If you know the system well, more specificity is helpful and the extra learning time isn't a significant problem in the long run. If you're coming in from out of town, especially if you're navigating by app, it's quite confusing that there are multiple trains all going in the same direction
@@anschelsc I don't get why it is confusing. I open the app or plan, see I have to use either S7, S9, S5 or S3, and then I walk into the station, look on the signs with S7, S9, S5 or S3 and their corresponding direction, hop onto the train and leave on my target station. On which point happens the confusion? It's not even of interest if they all use the same track and platform, it would make no difference if they all used their own. I just follow the plan and the signs at the station.
@@vomm I guess it depends on the app. I've definitely had some show me only one line (whichever it thinks is coming soonest) when in fact there are many that will work equally well.
I hope in Greece a route numbering scheme is introduced (however with different letters than the German scheme due to language differences)
S-Bahn seems to be the model Australia (unofficially) adopted. They act like a metro in the inner-city, whilst providing fast transport to other areas of the city. I would say it's quite a flexible system. I don't even know if any Australian cities have a "one train downtown in the morning, one train home in the evening" service.
Yeah I would say so
It’s downside is that there is so little of it, either through ideology or because full sized rail is expensive the only two full sized rail expansions in Sydney in my lifetime have been the eastern suburbs rail and Olympic park rail. In the meantime Sydney has more then doubled in size.
Bradfield (who designed Sydney's basic suburban/subway/S-Bahn-ish rail network) was a genius IMO. Most stuff-ups in Sydney have been the result of not adding to it sensibly (or at all). This system has trains running from one extremity of the suburban area via the city, to another (this can be about 80km).. Being used to this system, the RER/subway/suburban classification seems a bit artificial to me. Sydney has an unusually large urban sprawl. and there are 2 other sprawls nearby, so suburban (especially outer-suburban) tends to blur a bit with regional. Some intercity (Sydney/Newcastle/Wollongong) services operate more or less as suburban trains when they're within a sprawl.
It does seem that whether trains are in tunnels vs above ground is less important than the way things do or don't interline, whether they are through-running, etc. So S-Bahn vs U-Bahn or Underground/Overground seems artificial, and isn't strictly followed even in the cities that have them. This is not to downplay the reasons why tunnels are used or not. And you have to use SOME system to classify things.
Sydney has the advantage of the same gauge and electrical supply across the system and to do otherwise seems like lunacy to me. Unfortunately the Western Sydney Airport Metro will use a different voltage (for no great benefit and guaranteed inflexibility for the future).
Correct. And Auckland and Brisbane will soon be joining Melbourne and Sydney with high quality S Train type systems
@@mt-mg7tt Yeah, it's impressive how extensive Sydney's suburban rail network is. I'd agree with you that building a metro line as a spur out to the airport is an odd choice. They should have just built it as a branch of one of their suburban rail lines to allow for a one-seat ride all the way into downtown Sydney.
I think an really interesting case study would be the Ruhr area in Germany. Due to big cities (Dortmund, Essen, Bochum) being so close together there the S-Bahn is commonly used to travel between cities together with other regional rail like the RB trains (Regionalbahn) or the RE/RRX (express regional rail).
At least in Dortmund the Stadtbahn (LRT) is used to travel from the suburbs to (and through) the city center, being a mix of overground (suburbs) and underground (city center) rail.
I've never really understood what the difference between S-Bahn and RB is. Living in Mainz and with the local S-Bahn System i can travel into Frankfurt and Darmstadt (S-Bahn Rhein-Main) and Kaiserslautern, Ludwigshafen, Mannheim, Heidelberg or Karlsruhe (S-Bahn Rhein-Neckar).
@@lukasrentz3238 If I understand correctly S-Bahns connect within big metropolitan areas (Rhein-Main, Rhein-Ruhr, Berlin, etc.) whereas RBs serve rural areas as well. RBs are less frequent and usually smaller I think.
@@nils2614 True, the S-Bahn Network doesn't connect to my Homevillage. Though RB and RE, which look to be similar sized to the S-Bahn, together serve it every 30 Minutes, similar to the S8 from Mainz down to Karlsruhe.
There isn't really any one definition (not even on what the S stands for...), which makes it so hard to narrowly define. Generally they run on mainline tracks (at least outside the city proper), stop often (usually every single stop), offer higher capacity than regional trains (but less than subways) and run reasonably frequently (more frequently than regional trains but less frequently than subways).
But for every single point you can find S-Bahn systems that do it differently and so on. It's basically a German-speaking category for "train category that isn't anything else".
@@Sp4mMe Yeah that part about the "S" is very true. I always thought it stood for "Schnellbahn" but apparently it can also mean "Stadtbahn" or "Stadtschnellbahn", which is weird because "Stadtbahn" is genereally understood to be a different kind of train service. Combine that with the regional differences and it's a really confusing system ^^'
Vienna wasn't mentioned here but it is interesting to note that the inner urban signage strategy has been changed on the S-Bahn main corridor to showing the "main branch terminus" instead of the actual terminal station (which is listed in small just below). This is a bit more confusing for those venturing beyond but a lot easier to understand for inner urban passangers or tourists. They are also starting now a massive upgrading process, taking place from 2024-2027. Stations will be enlarged to allow even bigger trains and the whole main corridor will be upgraded to the ETCS Level 2 train control system. This will enable a fully subway like 2 min frequency on the main corridor.
Zurich also also a numbering scheme like in Berlin where almost each terminus to terminus line has an individual number, and yes that's quite practical for suburbanites. For travel in the core of the network (city of Zurich and bordering communes) this numbering scheme can become quite overwhelming having numbers going from 2 to 23. That's why I like to split them up in 4 main groups like the Paris RER depending on which Zurich main station substation they leave from. Group L: S2, S8, S14, S19: Bahnhof Löwenstrasse, platforms 31-34, Group M: S3, S5, S6, S7, S9, S11, S12, S15, S16, S20, S23: Bahnhof Museumsstrasse, platforms 41-44, Group SZU: S4, S10: SZU station, platforms 21-22, Group H: S21, S24, S25, S42: main hall, platforms 3-18. The remaining lines which are those that do not serve Zurich main station are split up in other groups. Group E: S13, S40: Einsiedeln, Group W: S26, S29, S33, S35: Winterthur, Group B: S36, S41: Bülach. Lines S17 and S18 are not included in this scheme as they run on meter gauge (Zurich tram tracks) and are more like interurban trams. Furthermore they do not share the tracks with other S-Lines like a S-Bahn usually does. On a map the individual groups would each get a line and then split up (like the Paris RER map) but in case of returning on the same tracks (like between Effretikon and Winterthur) branches from the same group would be shown separated to avoid confusion
13:05 The Hamburg S-Bahn "loop" is really more two seperate city corridors (basically what you said at 11:44) than an oceanian-style loop, since the services take either the northern (elevated) or the southern (tunneled) section through the city and then carry onwards into the suburbs
Edit: 14:50 I'm way more used to services being named differently and find it less confusing, even if it is "just" a branch. My guess is that tourists struggle less with distinct and unique numbering aswell since you won't hop on a service assuming that it will terminate at a certain station and then finding out that it doesn't. Probably just a matter of taste and being german-brained lol. Would love this being discussed in another video
I exactly wanted to reply the same, that the Hamburg S-Bahn just looks like a loop on the map but it isn't one. To be precise it's worse than that, as S-Bahn Hamburg does exactly the oppisite of running through trains: S11 ist changing directions (coming from Blankenese to continue to Dammtor and vice versa) and lines S2 and S 31 use Altona as their terminus, drive into the siding and start their journey in the opposite direction. S1 and S 3 are apparently the only lines using Altona as a through station, but not as a loop.
I assumed that the city would have more efficient ops, I guessed wrong
I also wanted to comment on the numbering system and that I find our "German S-Bahn numbering system" more logical and useful. How often did I look at the holy RER, at NY subway maps or networks from China or Japan and thought to myself: ".....WTF, where does this line go? Look at RER C, that doesn't make sense!"
As you said, maybe we're just too german-brained and a more concise system is for whatever psychological reason supposed to be more helpful. Personally I can't get used to it though ^^
Absolutely agree with your edit. It is so much easier when you can just look at the number and know exactly which one you need to take.
Well, RM already has proven in his former video that he most likely was never in Hamburg - he called our system "efficient". Yes, efficient in the way that it takes often twice the time with the train to get somewhere than with a car and so efficient that we have 24m long busses overcrowded...
And yes, the Hamburg inner city line isn't a loop and also never called that way. That's especially as most people will never when they for example use the Verbindungsbahn from Hbf to Altona then change to the City tunnel, but more likely to Pinneberg or Wedel (also the train from Verbindungsbahn stops at the same platform as the outbound trains, NOT the inbound ones for the city tunnel), and when I want to get fast from Holstenstraße to for example Reeperbahn I would either take the bus or go to Sternschanze and then St. Pauli, as it would take me longer from Holstenstraße via Altona to Reeperbahn (and I would have to change the platform too). Also the rerouting of the lines will NOT change that, also then the S2 and later S4 will end in Altona and not make a loop
As a Berliner nothing beats a Ring (loop) with a cross in the middle. Brings you almost everywhere. As far as i know Berlin-Brandenburg pursue a regio network in the form of a star for coming growth.
If you're trying to compare a London system to an S-bahn then you have the Thameslink portion of GTR
-Runs very frequent high density service through a city centre tunnel
-Culminates from many small branches on both sides of the river (MML and various ECML on the north)
-Runs through services, many of which are suburban
The only thing that is slightly different is the fact it operates the non suburban services between London and Brighton together with Southern, although these are still mainly commuter services serving the wider London commuter belt...
This!
As well as Brighton (which has the Bedfords stop at all stops south of Gatwick, and the Cambridges only stop three times), there's the 40km/25 mile non-stop section between Finsbury Park and Stevenage, that would give those services an RE rather than S label in the Germanic world with its neat little boxes approach.
You could say the same about the Elizabeth Line, and there are proposals to extend it somewhat so, for instance, trains could be run from Milton Keynes via a short section of new line to Old Oak Common.
The Brighton mainline essentially serves as a Shuttle between Gatwick, Croydon, Clapham and Central London.
@@TheEulerID This Milton Keynes proposal was scrapped over 5 years ago due to poor value... Thameslink branches to a much greater extent (especially southwards) as while Crossrail only has two branches on either end, Thameslink has 2 on the north and atleast 5 (Sutton loop counted as 1) south of the river
While major private railway lines and metro lines in Tokyo are forming network with "through running" operation, JR network does "German model" with Ueno Tokyo line and "Paris model" with Yokosuka Sobu rapid line (tunnel between Shinagwa and Kinshicho).
Tokyo is everything all at once
The fact that Ueno-Tokyo Line is somehow one line that is made out of Utsuonmiya line and various other lines all somehow combined together has confused me for an entire year. Comparing it to the S-Bahn finally clears it up
@@frafraplanner9277 It took me about ten visits to Tokyo to understand through running and take it into account when getting around the city. There are very few maps which make it obvious what is going on. The line from Narita to Haneda for example - three companies with through running, each barely revealing what happens to the same train when it's outside their section. You have to be a detective to realise how this "line" really works.
Think a reason that JR has less through-running with Tokyo's Metro & _Toei_ is that JR rolling stock is slightly wider (~2.95m) & thus it needs special narrowbody-versions (e.g. E233-2000) of its rolling stock (2.8m wide) to fit into the Metro & _Toei_ tunnels
Great video! You should make a video on Philadelphia’s SEPTA regional rail, it’s one of the best built out s-bahn systems in the US, especially for a city of its size. SEPTA has a lot of flaws though, particularly in its inner-city services, but the regional rail is actually quite spectacular and very useful!
Double Decker S-Bahn trains are also a thing in some German systems, like Dresden where the S-Bahn very heavily uses the tracks built for regional and long distance service
dresden s bahn is just regular regional rail using the s-bahn name because it sounds better
Was going to mention the Dostos that do a lot of S-Bahn services in Dresden, but they also don't necessarily strictly follow the S-Bahn model of cities in former West Germany.
I really love these educational videos that make us learn more fundamental topics and a break from updates about ongoing projects (although I love those too).
I hope you will make a video one day where you will address the different types of public transit like buses and trams and which ones are more suitable to a specific situation.
Thanks for watching
Thanks Reece for a superb video. I would agree that the London Overground is not really an S-Bahn. The Elizabeth line is closely analagous to a Parisian RER. The London Thameslink line is arguably like a gigantic version of the Zurich S-Bahn, with trains running out to Brighton, Cambridge and Peterborough. The latter is 122 kms. from London.
Two points about Zurich. The central section Oerlikon-Stadelhofen- Hauptbahnhof-Hardbruck-Altstetten is treated by Zurichers as a metro-style line, just like many other German-speaking cities. On busy routes out to places such as Winterthur, Wetzikon and Dietikon, trains are (at least) every 15 minutes.
I'd also note that unlike many S-Bahn networks, overground operates almost entirely within London boundaries.
doesn't really matter tho, so does the berlin S-Bahn
in general the berlin S-Bahn is really what he calls an "RER" even though the Berlin S-Bahn was the original one. RER is really more of an original S-Bahn than anything else.
@@cooltwittertag fully agreed. And since its the original s bahn. Its the true s bahn. The others ones however are not
So does the Wien S-Bahn.
@@cooltwittertag I think the Berlin S-Bahn is more a train-sized metro than an actually S-Bahn. It is not specifically fast, nor does it provide significant connections to the sourrounding suburbs. Its most value lies in inner-city connections. The biggest differences to the Berlin U-Bahn are only technical (other workrules, other power-system) but besides that it serves quite similar tasks in the city.
If you look at the history, the system itself was invented at a time, where cities like Charlottenburg, Schöneberg, Neukölln etc. where independent cities. It was just because of the war and the greater-berlin-law, that caused the situation that the electric S-Bahn was fully inside the city borders at it's opening.
In Germany there are way more systems like Munich, Stuttgart, Frankfurt, Leipzig, that are way junger and do more stand for the modern S-Bahn which connects several branches in the suburbs to a central city tunnel which itself operates more like a subway than a regional rail corridor and even has a similar station density.
One of the big issues with the central tunnel of many S-Bahn systems is that if there is a disruption in the tunnel the whole system grinds to a halt.
This is what happens here in Munich a lot. And the metro here also have core routes, i.e. U1/U2, U4/U5 and U3/U6 operate together in the city centre in each case. If there is something under construction, like the Sendlinger Tor station (that is under extensive renovation and expansion work and under full operation), so you have the disruption affecting two lines at the same time. Since we are here still accustomed of having disruptions and construction service here, both the MVG and the S-Bahn München (DB) are not afraid of closing important stations or even whole sections for a long period of time in such important areas. The frequency Deutsche Bahn blocks the S-Bahn core route here is really insane. But I still love our public transportation here in Munich!
For English speakers, it's quite simple in Germany: S is suburban, U is urban. That's not how it was originally meant, but it nevertheless is correct in practice.
I agree 100% with Mexico City being an example of the simplest of suburban systems. I’ve felt for years that the solution for the huge number of people traveling between the City and State of Mexico is a RER style run through suburban network. Excellent video BTW.
Tokyo's through-running trains proved to be a bit of a nightmare to deal with because some subway lines use 1,435 mm gauge, some subway lines use 1,372 mm gauge and many subway lines use the 1,067 mm gauge. Trying to integrate them all together became quite a challenge, but the results have been spectacular, particularly the _F-Liner_ that connects the nortthern suburbs of Tokyo in Saitama Prefecture all the way to Yokohama.
I’ve used that in Tokyo to get to Yokohama and it was mind blowing especially as I didn’t really understand it at the time
The 1st time I was in Tokyo I got a bit confused when I was at a _Toei_ subway platform & a _Keio_ commuter rail train showed up instead
I think London Overground is more like a suburban train that is more looping around London using the existing infrastructure of the old rail corridors or even old Underground lines. So I would categorize London overground more like a Transellien service from Paris having some tunneld sections with a strange looping alignment.
By the way, please do a video about Transellien services from Paris. Because transellien services are even bigger than RER.
The Transilien services are just a classic suburban train that ends in a city center Terminal (except line U that ends in La Défense interchange station). He mentioned, this type of transit at the begining.
@EK 12 yea I said that London overground is stranger Transellien version. Because many of the overground services are ending at big termilnals and transport hubs in London such as Euston or Liverpool Street or Clapham Junction. That's why I would compare it with transellien rather than an S-bahn system because for most of its leaght is on the surface level. Of course the difference between transellien and London overground is that transellien is not looping around Paris
@EK 12 But I would say that in both cases those systems were usually created as update versions of the previous suburban rail corridors. With let's say some improvements of the infrastructure and stations. For example transellien was created in 1998 us an more frequent service with more stations. A let's say more improvement version of the previous suburban rail lines or TER services.
I just love that you let us all geek out about transit. I'm lucky to have travelled the world and riding local metros is high on my list. A friend of mine is a driver for Sydney Trains, he lets me come along in the cab to Wolli Creek and Berowra. "This train will stop at…Nothing!"
I gotta add to the São Paulo talk: the last functioning tram line was deactivated and demolished 1968, and we had no new lines since. In 2019, during refurbishing works in the downtown area, they found some of the old tracks buried under asphalt and concrete, which also got removed.
There is an ongoing proposal of reintroducing LRT/tram lines to the city, but the pushback from NIMBYs is quite strong, and people also believe such tracks would further disrupt the already really horrendous traffic in the city because of the righr-of-way required for them to work. These lines would VASTLY help the city because the progress with underground transit has been horrendously slow as well (besides the REALLY fast airport transit line construction, the other lines barely get a new station per year).
We will see how things will go!
Edit: there are already BRT lines in the entire metro area (São Paulo and neighboring cities) so "right of way" isn't new to anyone there, and buses tend to get crowded in the entire metro area so there IS demand for mass transit! Perhaps people just need to be educated to help push for better investment.
Interesting. Can a tram or LRT use the right of war of a BRT? I feel like it wouldn’t be easy nor cheap, but a LRT feels like a good compromise in a big, dense city. BRTs are fine and everything, but , diesel is diesel at the end of the day, and rubber tires need to be replaced often.
We human beings have this slightly annoying obsession with categorizing everything into very rigid categories. Which in a way it can be really helpful for us to navigate day-to-day in new situations, but also makes us a bit limited and close minded to new or different concepts.
Each city/region develops their own transit options according to its own needs and characteristics (geography, population, economical factors, etc). It's not that important what it's called, only that it serves a purpose.
It's really ambiguous what an S-bahn or RER is. The different RER services in Paris are very different among themselves. And look at S-bahns: Berlin, Bremen, Hamburg, Zurich, Zug, Copenhagen - these are quite different to each other, there's barely any single characteristic that fits all of them apart from being trains that somehow serve urban areas.
So forget the labels and take systems for what they are in reality, detached from labels. Some of these are simply collections of different lines and services, Zurich S-bahn being a great example of a diverse system.
In the case of the London Overground it's neither an S-bahn nor a RER. Nowadays it's a collections of different urban lines that serve London without running through city center. The London Overground is best understood when one looks at its history and development.
When the original London Overground was created it was a condensation of 3 or 4 lines, some mainline, some used by the London Underground, in order to create a loop around the city center that would complement the radial lines (London Underground and British Rail). This loop or collection or arches runs mostly through Zone 2, so it runs within London but around the central Zone 1. For context London goes into Zone 9 in crowns, so even Zone 2 is pretty "central". A couple of branches / extremities of the arches run briefly further out into zone 4/5, and this is what could be seen as S-bahn, but it was a very small part of a mostly Zone 2 service. It is super helpful for Londoners to go around town and reach a few important attractions.
After the first loop, throughout the years Transport For London started to take over some lines/services from mainline rail operators, getting some more arches and some radial lines from the suburbs that terminate at terminals in zone 1, so lines with very different characteristics from the OG Ldn Overground, but they ended up included in the same London Overground mode.
Therefore, repeating myself from above, what we have today is simply a collections of different urban lines that serve London without running through city center like the Ldn Underground does (EDIT: and at lower frequencies than the Underground).
Categorization is a great way of trying to seek the common elements of different systems, its about creating mental models and systems for learning! There are certainly more common elements from system to system than I think you give credit for . . .for example Zurich's use of locomotives which I mention is quite unusual compared to other systems!
I even laughed internally all the time when RM called the Berlin S-Bahn network a "suburban rail network", as it's NOT a suburban rail network, it don't even calls itself that, S-Bahn comes from "Stadtbahn" in Berlin and also in Hamburg the only suburban parts are to Pinneberg, Wedel and Stade, the rest ist inside Hamburg (and with Wedel you can even say that it never leaves the urbanized area of Hamburg, as Wedel is urbanly fused with Rissen).
The S don't say anything. The S- in the case of Hamburg stands for "Schnellbahn", in Berlin for "Stadtbahn", in Munich, Frankfurt and Nuremburg for "Suburban rail", in the Ruhrgebiet, Dresden and Leipzig it's more a replacement for the RBs (the same goes for Switzerland), Bremen calls it RS, in Freiburg it's literally a Diesel-RB renamed S-Bahn, and in Saarbrücken it's the Straßenbahn (yes, they literally gave a Tram the S-Numbering). It's the same as the German "U-Bahn" can mean a metro, a Stadtbahn-Tram or even, look at NRW, normal trams that have tunneled sections.
@@acmenipponair I always thought the S was for Surface. Lol
@@acmenipponair That pretty much explains how S-Bahn in Germany means that they have nothing in common besides being on rails. It isn't even exclusively urban, the Regio S Bahn in Bremen is basically just a new name for the existing regional train network that goes into surrounding towns. Part of it goes 50+ km outside the urban area. Basically the category of everything that can't be put into any category.
So if "S-Bahn" means it's a rail vehicle for passenger transport (because that is the only thing they have in common) than the London Underground, the NY Subway, and basically every train network is also S-Bahn.
@@acmenipponairI remember _Berlin's_ S-Bahn does travel far out enough to reach the neighbouring city of _Potsdam_ though
London is definitely an odball, with many different system of wich I would argue Thameslink is the most S-Bahn RER type one.
The S-Bahn in Hamburg does not loop. It has 2 different routes that connect and look like they form a loop but you can't ride it like that.
I am dissapointed
Cologne can have in future a loop in their S-Bahn. The stations could be: Central (Stadtbahn 5, 16, 18), Hansaring (12, 15), Westbf (3, 4, 5), Aachener Straße (Übergang 1), Südbf (9), Bonner Wall (5, 17), Poll (7), TH Köln, Trimbornstraße (Übergang 1), Deutz (1, 3, 4, 9), Central.
@@RMTransit If you would do really research, you would know that. There are even track layouts of the Hamburg networks on the net and there you can easily see that you simply cannot without a directional change get from the City Tunnel to the Verbindungsbahn. And the change would have to happen in the most overcrowded station of Germany, the Hamburg Hauptbahnhof.
Would you ever cover the Greater Kuala Lumpur/Klang Valley network in Malaysia? I think it's a very underrated system that's opening a new line soon next year!! I really want to see your praises and criticisms of the system
Eventually!
Good video. The one thing I disagree with is your thoughts on naming routes. I find naming routes that use the same tracks in the center but go different places needlessly confusing. The first time I was in Boston, I was completely baffled by the green line, and the fact that they are all called the same line, yet all have different termini on both ends. I think the way the Washington Metro or the Zurich S-bahn does it is ideal, with each service getting a different name, and glancing at a map making it clear exactly where every train is going, without having to check the departure board or the front of the train.
Well, I would say in that case he is typically american continent biased. He is just used to that system. I would be really annoyed by that system. And even in London they now want to get rid of calling the Overground just overground or by the line they run on, but give them service numbers. (The naming of the Underground is less confusing, as outside of the Metropolitan line a Picadelly line train will most likely always use the same route.)
In Systems like the Munich S-Bahn it absolutely makes the most sense to label each "branch" as it's own line. Because most of the route is just served by one line.
It just makes sense that for all those passengers towards one of these branches (by far the biggest share of passengers) they know which line to take.
But I think it's also a good approach to have an additional label for the high frequency core like the Vienna S-Bahn does it
Very interesting how naming a line based on its final destinations is confusing to you. :D When i was in London, i found it more difficult to navigate the transit system because you have to look twice in which direction the Bakerloo Line (for example) runs. In the end, you have to doublecheck where the train terminates; especially when you have something like the Elizabeth Line (Heathrow and Reading in one direction and Woolwich and Abbey Wood in the other).
Liverpool's 'Loop and Link' system for Merseyrail would seem to be a classic S-Bahn in a way in which London Overground isn't.
Great video. Would really like to see one about the Frankfurt U and S Bahn. Also Frankfurt Central is pretty impressive considering all different regional services😊
It shall happen in the future!
Frankfurt doesn't have a U-Bahn
@@Iikkxx35567 it literally has
@@hu-ry no lol. That's a stadtbahn learn the difference
If is an essential part of the very concept of a German (not Swiss) S-Bahn that it is designed for seamless integration with urban systems, in larger cities typically an U-Bahn. It is therefore intentional that the S-Bahn does not have network for the inner city but only one or maybe two central sections. This sections provide the interconnect to the U-Bahn system. In Frankfurt S-Bahn and U-Bahn even share platforms. Part of the concept is also that the S-Bahn has an integrated fare system with U-Bahn, tram and bus so you can travel on a single ticket through the entire system, which eases interchange.
It is unlikely that the Elizabeth Line tunnel in London will ever take on traffic from other lines. After just a bit more than a year of operation, it is already close to its theoretical capacity limit with trains every 2.5 minutes in the central section between Whitechapel and Paddington.
Yeah, it's so useful and practical that it suffers the fate of RER lines : instant success, nearing or at saturation in a much shorter time frame than expected and quickly requiring service increases and/or train capacity increases to cope with the astonishingly high induced demand.
London could use at least another RER-like line, will we see Crossrail 2 in a not so distant future ?
I sure hope so !
11:46 "or perhaps two" - Torontonian trying to manifest the midtown line.
I have a whole folder full of heavy rail systems. Including the S-Bahn. RER, Servizio Ferroviario Metropolitano, Rodalies, Cercanías, CP Urbanos, S-Trein, SKM, Esko, BHÉV, S-Tog, Pendeltag, Beovoz, Mamaray, Proastiakos, some austrailian systems, some new sealandic systems, REM, GO Rail, LIRR, Metro North, Metra, MARC, VRE, TRI Rail, Metrolink, Metrotrén and that's not even all!
i would love to see you tackle the stuttgart railway system (and how you include the infamous new S21 tracks and what you think of them)
i think using destinations as line names is def more practical for locals and when lines regularily end at different stations. "Line 2 terminating at xy" is longer, but would be more easy for non locals.
The swiss SBahns do not need the frequency, because in the areas where the frequency is needed many lines share the same route. So even if there is only one S6 from Oerlikon to Zurich main station every 30mins, there is defacto a connection about every 5 mins.
Counted together, every route is probably a minimalistic minimal viable trainline, but as a collective network it becomes one of the strongest networks I know, considering that Zurich isn't a city that large.
You should definitely check Madrid's Cercanías Renfe system, a wonder of engeneering that's terribly managed...
Now i would like it if you would take a look at the mumbai suburban railway and place it in a category. The system has carried the entire city like a metro at the city part and long distances in the suburbs. Its a interesting system which surely needs a mention
In the future!
I'd be interested to hear what you think about the Dresden S-Bahn. It shares some of the features with Zürich which make it an odd-ball in your opinion (frequency, double-decker train usage)
Ooh Liverpool’s Merseyrail has a small loop too! The Wirral Line heads into Liverpool, stops at James Street, then Liverpool Central (where it meets the Northern Line), Lime Street (which is the Main Line terminus), Moorfields (meeting the Northern Line again) and finally back to James Street then beyond.
MBTA is Boston is in the process (although they have been dragging their feet about Electrification) of converting to an S-Bahn style operation probably starting with the Providence, Stoughton, and Fairmount lines since those lines are already partially Electrified
What you need to note: Many regions in Germany for instance have something called a "Verkehrsverbund", basically an organization where multiple companies have agreed to work together which allows for much more categorized services.
Example Berlin: Within the city (tarif zone A, anything within the s-bahn ring) you predominantly get around by bus, tram and subway. This is the city center. Then there's tarif zone b which is still within city limits but not the immediate commercial city center. Here you mostly get around by a combination of Bus, S-Bahn and U-Bahn (Trams are a bit of a weird topic in this regard, as they were the main transport in east Berlin). You usually use the S-Bahn to get from Tarifzone B into the city center quickly. S-Bahn usually are on a 10 minute service, although depending on the line and the time of day it could increase to a 20 or 30 minute service.
Then there's tarif zone C which is the "Greater Berlin Area" so to speak. Anything outside the city limits but within the limits of the VBB Verkehrsverbund. Only a S-Bahn trains run here But you can still use all the other modes of transport (regional train[RB,RE], and Busses and other modes offered) to get around with regional trains offering an even faster way into the city center. Yes, these usually only run once every hour but as most lines share the tracks you often get at least 30 minute services.
no matter where you live within the VBB zone as soon as you reach a trainstation you'll have a 30-35 minute ride tops to reach the city center.
In former East German areas the S-Bahn kinda intermingles with the regional trains, and you might even see locomotive hauled Dostos (big double decker cars) serving S-Bahn services while smaller EMU trains are serving the Regional routes.
Living in a village of 10k inhabitants alongside a main line just north of the Bavarian state capital city of Munich, a city which S-Bahn service map you showed here several times in the video, I'm connected to the city via both the S-Bahn service running on a 20 minute schedule, and the bus which could take me to the next town in Munich County from where on the subway would get me into the city as well.
3 S-Bahn service commuter trains per hour per direction isn't that great, but kind of good enough for a place beyond the Munich city limits and beyond Munich County.
Few years ago I live in our county town of 45k inhabitants where the station was the terminus of the S-Bahn service commuter trains and was a through-running station for all other passenger trains, from regional to regional express trains and international regional express trains
Thanks for this video! I should note that Metro-North does not stop at Penn Station in New York (your graphic showed that it does), so if you’re transferring from Metro-North to NJTransit, you have to take 2 subways to go from Grand Central to Penn Station! There is a plan to extend Metro-North to Penn Station by 2027 though.
(Fun fact: This used to be the case with LIRR too, but service to Grand Central started earlier this year)
Would have been neat to see SEPTA mentioned, they are basically a german style S bahn with the central city tunnel.
Sort of, but less stations
the overground is also TfL very slowly acquiring pre-existing urban and suburban routes into their control for one reason or another. The 'original' or 'true' overground route are the orbital rings in my view, that's the remit for the project and provides a very useful way to go between inner-suburbs or connect to other trains to outer suburbs without getting involved with the centre. The Watford DC and Lea Valley lines are traditional radial suburban lines that dont really interact with the orbital overgound lines and don't really have much to do with each other, i always assumed they took over the Lea Valley lines so that TfL have control over the service that may one day be replaced with Crossrail 2, they did the same thing with TfL rail and crossrail 1
Great video, love your passion and the intracy of research you put into the videos you produce!
S-Bahn Stuttgart even has a dedicated mainline train turning loop underground near Schwabstraße station.
My favorite video by you, and I’ve seen probably two dozen!
I suggest you to take a look at the suburban rail in Milan, the "passante ferroviario": the concept it's more or less like the rer but in my opinion it could have been used in a much more efficient way. Like now it is just a very expensive urban tunnel, that could be used by a metro increasing capacity and ridership, but is instead used by regional trains, on which most of the riders get off at the regular train station, which are more connected to the local transport.
The Berlin S-bahn is an exception. Most s-bahns in Germany are much larger more mainline-like trains. But Berlin U and S Bahn trains look similar
S-Bahn Stuttgart with the station Schwabstraße would have been a perfect example of a loop station for unbalanced infrastructure. I also love how the term S-Bahn has kinda been adopted in the english language.
The thing about London’s transport network is that it really wasn’t designed. It just happened somewhat chaotically over time as a bunch of separate railways that were eventually integrated. It’s actually amazing how well it does work considering what a sprawling mess it is!
Just as Britain acquired an empire in a fit of absent-mindedness.
@@sluggo206 How ridiculous to compare a transport network to that dark part of our history.
I'm surprised that you didn't bring up Karlsruhe, which has one of the largest S-Bahn/Tram networks and also uses a dual-system where the trains can run on both the city network but also the regional train network.
Milan has a system that is a mix between rer Paris and s-bhan berlin. It has a tunnel (passante ferroviario) with a lot of lines (linee S) having different frequency (but combined in a way that general frequency in the center of the city is 3 minutes during the rush hours) and a semi-ring used for other linee s and regional trains (indicated by an R). Both the linee S (suburbans) and regionali R (regional trains) use the same corridors creating a kind of exstended regional metro line. It is very interesting and efficient, especially because the connections with its 5 subway lines (metropolitana) are well distributed, not to mention airports shuttle trains, trolley, trams and buses...
In Milan using the car for commuters it is absolutely not convenient neither efficient.
Berlin has the best S Bahn system in the World
If I'm correct it's also the oldest "S Bahn" so technically its S Bahn in its purest Form
Berlin's S-Bahn is just another metro however
right the name is also a Berlin invention S-Bahn = Stadtschnellbahn and its the oldest system and also that one that is the model for definations about "Real S-Bahn Systems" or systems that a only Branded as one.
I don't like calling the Berlin S-Bahn a Metro, it is quite distinct
@@RMTransit While it's pretty distinct, it in alot of ways feels like a metro with a ground level extension to the suburbs, the style of the trains looks alot like a metro train, the frequency is kinda between tram and rail like, it is pretty heavily tunneled and the routing seems very similar to a metro in some places, except the way they converge in the center.
Also it kinda feels weird to me how every train service that touches a city is inmediately called S-Bahn instead of suburban rail cuz that feels more like a German "brand" and
implies using the same style of services, routing etc.
For example the Prague Esko while sharing some similarities runs alongside normal trains and there's 2 main hubs in the city and few exchange points, while some of the lines never even go to Prague, instead running service between multiple bigger cities in the region.
@@RMTransit The only part that distinguish Berlin S-Bahn from a Metro is that the Operator is the DB! In fact even the trainsets of the Berlin S-Bahn and U-Bahn Wide body in the 2000s were build by the same standards, the only difference is the voltage they use.
The overground is a collection of rapidly constructed railways, branded and operated by TfL for better integration with the tube etc. There isn't really anything special about overground routes compared to the rest of the messy suburban rail lines in London.
They have the Orange Roundels, the addition of which magically improved everything to a level far beyond what they were the day before takeover! :P
Most suburban lines in London run from one end of the city to the other and onwards to other destinations outside the city with the exception of a few lines such as the Mid-Kent line. The overground operates almost entirely in London and if not, terminates close to the border.
While I'm not familiar with the system in Zürich, the S-Bahn in Bern is basicaly a regaional train system that was pressaganged into pulling double duty as a suburban commuter rail.
For example, the S1 starts in the town of Thun, then runs through Bern and on to the city of Fribourg (not to be confused with Freiburg in Germany) running for more than an hour one way.
All things considred, the system works pretty well and with the high capacity trains and generaly good connections the half-hour service isn't an issue.
You should make a video about the distances, train stations should be apart. Especially trams!
The Overground is like Paris RER C line. A plate of spaghetti composed of several older services, with many branches and no obvious trunk line.
All the future plans we have in London are pointedly not for S-Bahn style through services, which I think is pretty obvious given the horrific mess of our suburban and commuter rail networks spread over different networks and operators. Instead the two directions seem to be more RER style cross-city high capacity railways (Crossrail 2 would be a SW-NE axis giving the relief to the Piccadilly and Victoria lines that the Liz line gives to the Central), and the metroisation of South London's commuter network, which is all already mostly third rail electrified and really dense but unlike the north and east of the city is mostly in mainline railway operators' hands. These are natural future areas of expansion for the Overground - a mix of terminal and suburban orbital railways still within the city limits that go from disconnected and patterned poorly, to an integrated wayfinding and service patterns and reworked interchanges into the other networks. But that all said, it doesn't do the big step up to those European systems and build the infrastructure necessary for through-running, and given how far off Crossrail 2 seems and how little discussion there is of either TfL making more use of the Thameslink corridor, London really is gonna keep pushing the envelope for exactly how efficient and useable a transport network you can produce without actually building big new infrastructure more than once every 30 years or so lmao
As for the question "What is the London Overground?", does it really matter? It does what it does, and that doesn't change whether you label it "S-bahn", "Commuter Rail", "Suburban Rail", or anything else.
It's not that rail systems must fall in some narrowly defined category to be useful.
Didn't say they did! But I think categorizing is a helpful exercise is getting down to the essentials of different systems!
13:43 "Even ones hauled by locomotives" is technically correct but viewers might assume that SBB would shunt the loco at the end of the line back to the front but that is not the case, all scheduled train services (that I know of have) a cab in a combined passenger/control car at the end of the train and it makes little difference if it was a MU or hauled by a locomotive in operations when turning the train around. EDIT: Some S-Bahn do have a loco at each end instead of a control car.
Berlin Ringbahn: it's only logical to label separately each of the two directions: clockwise S41, and counterclockwise S42. The attention to this kind of detail in Berlin (and generally in the nation) is admirable. What I agree in sentiment, however, is the tendency to sprout new line numbers, only to shelve them away (for future use): the U12 comes to mind, which leads me to thinking about the upcoming S21, because surely someone thought of S12 for a semblance of "consistency". Oh well / na ja ...
Funnily, the RER was initially branded as a metro for some years (regional express metro, they changed the name because the acronym means sh*t in French). But it shows that the RER (A & B at least) were designed just like any other metro line, just grand-scaled (high-frequency, fully grade-separated, GOA-2…)
The name was going to be MER (Metro Express Regional), before it opened.
And when building the first phases of the central trunk for line A, they wanted for marketing purposes to include the first major stations served into the name : Métro Express Régional Défense Étoile, which acronym gives MERDE (sh*t in French).
But the overall name wasn't going to keep stations' names in it so it would have reverted to MER, and as to avoid word play by press in case of service problems, like newspapers printing "MERdique" (sh*tty), they decided to replace the word Métro by Réseau (network) which would then give "RER".
And the fun bit is that they didn't catch the acronym issue until after some large panel adds were erected around the building sites.
There are historical bits of footage showing the panels advertising the near future opening of the Métro Express Régional Défense Étoile trunk.
Hi RMTransit, could you make a video on the Nuremberg Transit system. The city is unique because, it has driverless U-Bahns (I think it was one of the first in the world, I am not sure). I think that could be an interesting video.
The BART system in the San Francisco Bay Area should have been a loop around the bay.
in a sense it can be used that way, if you include the caltrain corridor up the peninsula. when the san jose extension is finished you should be able to transfer onto caltrain right at diridon, too!
@@ronakchakraborty3207 The original 1950s BART plan did have a loop around the Bay. It didn't happen because San Mateo and Santa Clara Counties voted against it. They said Caltrain was enough, and Santa Clara County wanted to spend the money on expressways instead. Since then the southwestern part has been extended SFO/Millbrae, and the southeastern part to San Jose, but there's a gap between the two.
London has both an S-Bahn and an RER: Thameslink and Crossrail respectively. The Overground is a Metro: if Tokyo can have two due to historical and political reasons, so can London.
Really interesting and nice to have everything broken down! It would be interesting to see a video about the regional connector project opening in Los Angeles this month, it seems somewhat of a Tokyo-style solution to through running trains from east to west while still connecting to the fully underground subway. Love your videos!
If you want a combined S-Bahn system then do Rhein-Main Rhein-Neckar because they intersect each other at Mainz Hauptbahnhof S-Bahn Rhein Main S8 Wiesbaden Mainz Hanau S6 S-Bahn Rhein Neckar Mainz Mannheim Worms. The New York Region NJ Transit and Philadelphia commuter rail systems SEPTA intersect each other at Trenton. I wonder if those style of intersections are common in the commuter train world
I'd say Mersey Rail in the Liverpool/Wirral/Merseyside area is the closest to an S-Bahn in England. It has a city centre tunnel and branches out into suburban areas.
If you want to be really cheeky you could say the east London line part of the Overground only is an S-bahn, with the central tunnel being the bit between wapping and the routes coming off going to Croydon/Clapham/New Cross in the south. but really you're right, it doesn't really fit the pattern
Great video! How would you classify Madrid's "cercanias"? It seems to me like it has RER and S-Bahn characteristics
I would like to know this as well. I remember when I have been in Spain that stuff has always confused me
I would classify them as Madrid Cercanias. It has its own characteristics developed in its own historical context according to its own needs.
It's really ambiguous what an s-bahn or a RER is, simply look at all the s-bahns in the Germanic countries and notice how different they are among each other: Zurich, Zug, Berlin, Hamburg, Bremen, Copenhagen, etc. If anyone tells me these all share the same characteristics they are not paying attention.
@@f.g.9466especially Berlin and Hamburg are different to the others as their S-Bahns were built considerably before all the others. Munich is what you'd consider a true modern S-Bahn
@@jan-lukas exactly. But then Zurich also stands out in its diversity. And within Switzerland you have both Zurich S-bahn (which includes a line to Zug) and the Zug Stadtbahn which is an S-bahn style train service.
I'd say more S-Bahn than RER, but as other commenters mentioned categorizing only takes you so far.
In some German cities the S-Bahn isn't really a single collection of lines but a sprawling system of many lines almost even like systems within a system with multiple city centre tunnels and traditional suburban rail almost independent of one another but sharing a brand identity. They can even be spread across multiple cities - I'm thinking of the Rhine-Ruhr system.
As for loops, another good example is the Merseyrail Wirral Line in Liverpool.
In Switzerland they in many cases simply renamed the former R-Lines into S-Lines to get rid of the Rs and now have mostly only Regional Express and S-Bahn.
S-Bahn, RER, London Overground, etc are frequent, heavy rail, urban metro passenger rail networks. Reece loves his confusing terminology for public transport.
Having been to Tokyo recently, I think it may have been interesting to also talk about the JR East commuter lines in the Tokyo area, since they provide an RER-like service, and are very often the most convenient way to travel within the city core as well. They use regular mainline EMUs, and travel quite far out from the centre, but they stop just as frequently as the subways, and operate with high service frequency and clockwork precision. As a tourist I found myself using the Chūō-Sōbu Line, Keihin-Tōhoku Line, Yamanote Line and Yokosuka Line way more often than any of the subways.
JR Rail Pass huh?
I used three of those lines that you just mentioned. Otherwise, I mostly just used the subway and the Seibu railway that was near my Airbnb. It’s all made easy by the IC Card. I feel the JR Rail Pass has become an absurd tourist scam in recent years after the price increase and the fact that JR is cheaper but not as convenient and more crowded than the subway.
@@trainsandmore2319 JR Rail Pass makes sense if you’re traveling around the country via Shinkansen since it’s so expensive. At least before the upcoming price increase, a round-trip between Tokyo and Kyoto basically made up the cost.
If you’re staying within Tokyo, the cost of all the services is pretty negligible and the IC card is so seamless that it’s not worth even thinking about who operates a service.
@@trainsandmore2319 I did use the JR Pass, but it made a lot of sense for me since I travelled up and down the country, all the way from Sapporo to Fukuoka and back to Tokyo, so I saved money on just the shinkansen, never mind local trips. If I was only staying in Tokyo, I'd probably just use an IC card or look for combination tickets.
The only places I visited by subway were Asakusa, Roppongi, and the airports (and for Narita, next time I'll probably take the JR Narita Express instead). For everything else, JR lines proved more convenient and quicker, so I would've used them without a JR Pass all the same.
5:31 well just like in Copenhagen we have like 6 stations where all but one S-Bahn lines stops which also gives the opportunity to spread out the transfers over more stations
One more classic 'loop', with an additional RER style tunnel (though quite short) is in Liverpool, where the Merseyrail system has a loop around the city centre for trains coming from the south and a tunnel across the loop from east to west
The fundamental characteristic of the London Overground is that its infrastructure was already there. It is an enterprise that gathers up existing dispersed and diverse infrastructure (mainly obscure freight bypasses) and uses branding to give an impression of unity that what is in reality a disparate collection of oddments
Thinking about how Boston has the suburban rail model and how it could have an S-Bahn if the Big Dig is ever *fully* finished.
That it could, though I think it would be more like an RER C type of arrangement
One of the great benefits of the North London Line was getting across London while avoiding Zone 1.
When I lived in Camden Town I used the line regularly when I worked in Gunnersbury and later Hackney Wick. The amount of money I saved (and also the benefit of being in air con trains) was quite significant.
The London Overground I mainly see as a commuter rail and there has been talk to put all of London’s commuter rail routes under the banner similar to the Network South East branding but that was used by British Rail in the decade prior to privatisation.
Arguably, especially considering what it braught, the overground is a strong brand and commitment on a standard local suburban(In the london sence where suburbs have highrise centers) rail operaitor. If an Overground goes through crossrail, it becomes an elizabeth line service. if it goes through the thameslink core, it becomes a thameslink service. If the overground started running larger, less frequent, more comfortable but expensive trains, then it whould make sence for it to be restructured into the local operators. In outer london some tubes run on the same tracks as mainline trains, the name of the service is just it's city center location and price.
Switzerland has some very rural services that have S-labelled trains, for instance the S21 St Gallen to Appenzell, and the Zug S-bahn.
"What is an S-Bahn?", but not explaining what the abbreviated term actually means. "S-Bahn" is derived either from "Schnellbahn" (fast railway), "Stadtbahn" (urban railway) or a combination of both "Stadtschnellbahn" (fast urban railway). Here in Vienna, where I live, is one of the only places officially using the complete term "Schnellbahn" instead of the abbreviation "S-Bahn". The abbreviation probably came about as usually the lines carry the names "S" + a number.
In Stuttgart you do end up doing more urban trips on the U-Bahn than the S-Bahn, but the central corridor does get a lot of urban traffic because most of the central corridor stations are also U-Bahn or bus hub stations. But yeah one of the most common modes of travel is commuting from one suburb to another with a transfer somewhere on the central line. There is also one set of lines that is really confusing to people not familiar with the system. In Böblingen you can take either the S60 Schwabstrasse or S1 Kirchheim to get to Schwabstrasse. But the S1 goes direct and the S60 loops around the city first. It is a common beginner mistake to get into the S60 when you want to get into the city even though it is primarily a suburban route.
Well the Elizabeth Line is part of the Crossrail network, which it's designers have said is to be London's answer to the RER
14:50 why would that be silly?
To me it makes the most sense:
In general, the lines starting with the same number share a corridor (for example lines S45, S46, S47) and and on the map they are shown as a single line with branches.
Having a different number for each branch makes sure, that you never get the wrong train.
And the same colour of the lines and the fact that they start with the same number still shows that they share a corridor.
So to me this is the best of both worlds.
Finally a video about categorization! < 3
14:50 "the silly obsession with naming every single different service pattern differently"
ÎÎÎ I'd love to know how you would name them!
(and no, i'm not being ironic, just to be clear : ) )
I can reccomed to look at the Ruhr region. Its a metropolitan region with several cities pretty close to each other witha wide variety of different connections. One of the longest "s-Bahn" is the combined S5/S8 from dortmund all the way to Mönchengladbach. Connection about 10 big cities on its way. We even have regional trains commuting from Hamm to duisburg etc. The connections in this region are awesome. You can nearly use about 5 different trains to get to the same destination. Its only downside is the high train frequency which is the reason for a lot of delays at least in the long distance train connections (ICE network)
Very good point about through running! Makes it seem a little silly that all GO lines terminate at Union, but I guess that's also a product of the current AM/PM directional scheduling
The Zurich S-Bahn System is getting upgarde to have 15minutes frequency across all the important directions. The needed infrastructure for this increase is planned and slowly getting built. But it will take some time. And in the end it needs to integrate with the other timetables.
There is no definition of what constitutes an S-Bahn network in Germany aside from two to three factors:
1. Defined departure times, e.g. every 10, 15, 20 or 30 minutes, that do not change randomly over the day but only during defined periods, e.g. before 7am and after 8pm, or shorter intervals on weekdays than on Saturdays and Sundays.
2. Integrated fare system so that passengers can change freely from S-Bahn to Underground or buses
3. Typically uses wide body, mainline style trains (so even the London District or Circle line trains could qualify as an S-Bahn, esp. given their heritage or beginnings as regular railways)
In addition, some marketing clowns may just label any 1 train per hour service to Godknowswhere an S-Bahn service if they feel like it.
Whether or not the S-Bahn lines use a single crosstown corridor/tunnel or multiple corridors or uses its own rails or runs on mainline rail networks is not relevant.
In London there is also that example from Mexico City as many of the national railway operators run services that leave London terminals and travel out into the suburbs and just over the borders into neighbouring counties, stopping at all the stations. I live about an hour away from London so I don’t have this service available to me, I live on the more regional part of the network but if you live closer to Greater London there is additionally what southeastern calls (last I checked) ‘metro services’ as well as trains coming from further into Kent that make less stops in London itself.
I think saying that Switzerland is doing minimum viable railways is overlooking just how much money Switzerland puts into it's railways, it's more that we maximise service on our already dense network.
But that is the idea of MV, not build more than you need to to operate a given service level
@@RMTransit In Zürich we physically cannot squeeze any more railway lines in and under a narrow valley.
Small correction, the Hamburg S-Bahn doesn't actually have a loop (as stated at 13:07)
What looks like a loop is simply the northern above ground route and the southern city tunnel, with each of the main lines (S1, S2, S3) going through the tunnel, while splitting half their capacity to use the northern route under the designation S11, S21, S31, and usually either go to a different branch later down the line or terminating early compared to the main lines.
This is about to be changed though, by adding one additional line and then sending 2 south and 2 north.
However there is no and will be no line that services both the northern route and the city tunnel, using at as loop.
Talking about S-bahns, it would have been interesting to hear about Moscow’s MCD lines, which include 5 diameters made of 10(12 with branches) suburban lines. System is growing and about to build a new tunnel under very center of Moscow, connecting 3 big rail terminals to another terminal with 2 extra stations with interchanges to two metro station each.
Nice video)
Moscow information not available at this time😮
I personally find the single-service designations quite nice, but maybe that’s because I’m from New York where we beat it to death (and absolutely need it from all the interlining). It makes it very clear what train you need to take, unlike London where there’s a crazy mix of services on one designated “line”. In many cities (like Munich) where it acts almost like a subway and the central tunnel is only in the city center, it makes it more clear as to where you’ll end up.
It really made my trips to Berlin and Munich feel like a seamless transition, though the two designations for different Ringbahn directions was a bit confusing (but they do have helpful direction markers on a lot of the wayfinding/signage).
Zürich is even more streching the definition of S-Bahn then mentioned in the video.
The lines S17 and S18 run on meter gauge and are conected to the tram network while the rest of the network is normal gauge and is conected to the main rail network
And there are some lines like S13, S26, S41 etc. that don‘t even come close to the main city
It was very briefly talked about in this video, but he made a separate video for the Zürich S-Bahn.
@@simonmylak4112 sure I didn‘t expect a deep explenation, just something like „… and even some tram-train services are part of the S-Bahn network“
Which just demonstrates how silly it is to try to categorize things in a rigid way. It's just a public transit network. Being managed under the same umbrella for efficiency, and each piece of the network has its own characteristics optimized to different challenges each section has. Geography is varied around the world and solutions developed organically in different ways for different cities/regions.
@@f.g.9466but your riders so want to know what they get. Reliability usually rises as follows: Tram - LRT - Suburban Rail - Metro
@@jan-lukas and they do, with the Zurich S-bahn they get trains that take them out of town, trains that are usually on time and on regular patterns. They shouldn't expect that a completely different city would have a transit system that operates exactly the same way. Labels don't translate into what I would call reliability. Metros can be very unreliable too.