Wrong about Kettenkrad?
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 30 янв 2020
- On our "Kettenkrad: Loved but Useless?" video we got a condescending comment that wants to "prove" us wrong with several images. One comment in question was rather condescending and also wrong. Additionally, the poster ignores key aspects and context.
The comment
“Kettenkrad pulling a field gun and its crew. Should not be possible according to your Mr. Wehner.”
was provided with a version of this image: forum.ww2.ru/uploads/monthly_...
Also here is a link to the Cat with the Melon: joannecasey.blogspot.com/2009/...
Link to the original Video: • Was the Kettenkrad use...
»» SUPPORT MHV ««
» patreon, see videos early (adfree) - / mhv
» subscribe star - www.subscribestar.com/mhv
» paypal donation - paypal.me/mhvis
»» MERCHANDISE ««
» teespring - teespring.com/stores/military...
» SOURCES «
BAMA: RH 1/1197: H. Dv. 130/4a: Ausbildungsvorschrift für die Infanterie: Heft 4a: Die Infanterie-Geschützkompanie. 16. 3. 41, Nachdruck 1943 mit eingelegten Merkblättern.
BAMA: RH 1/767: H. Dv. 105/2: Das leichte Infanterie-Geschütz 18. Gerätebeschreibung. Reichsdruckerei: Berlin, 1936.
Jentz, Thomas L.; Doyle, Hilary Louis: Panzer Tracts No.15.-2: mittlere Schuetzenpanzerwagen (Sd.Kfz.251). Panzer Tracts: Boys, Maryland, USA, 2005.
Spielberger, Walter; Doyle, Hilary Lous, Jentz, Thomas L.: Halbkettenfahrzeuge des deutschen Heeres. Motorbuch Verlag: Stuttgart, 2012.
Hahn, Fritz: Waffen und Geheimwaffen des deutschen Heeres 1933-1945. Dörfler Verlag: Eggolsheim, o.J.
Beech Restorations Vehicles Profiles. Profile #1: NSU HK101 Sdkfz 2 Kettenkrad, UK
Abel, Friehelm: Kleines Kettenkraftrad Sd. Kfz. 2- Typ HK-101. Podzun-Pallas-Verlag GmbH: Dorheim, 1984
U.S. Military Intelligence Service: Technical & Tactical Trends No. 19. War Department: February 1943.
www.kettenkrad.de
#Kettenkrad #WrongAboutKettenkrad #KnowingVsUnderstanding
The comment “Kettenkrad pulling a field gun and its crew. Should not be possible according to your Mr. Wehner.” was provided with a version of this image: forum.ww2.ru/uploads/monthly_04_2019/post-79017-0-01181000-1556310726.jpg
Also here is a link to the Cat with the Melon: joannecasey.blogspot.com/2009/08/cat-rolling-watermelon-out-of-sea.html
It indeed looks like the 10,5cm leichtgeschütz 40, but also could be the 10.5 cm Leichtgeschütz 42. I find it interesting that the Germans seem to have organised this battery with the Kettenkrad and separate trailers towed by more Kettenkrad's. From what I know these guns where not issues to normal divisions which would make them either army corps or army units. That probably explains why they are motorised at all. Still I find it interesting that they used the Kettenkrad for this. It makes sense for the guns themselves, but for the crews and munition I would have expected an 1,5t truck. Guess at least this unit was organised to be uniformly highly mobile on very difficult terrain with a smaller emphasis on munition carrying capacity. Those 10,5cm leichtgeschütz 40 are recoilless rifles and they would use far more propellant than an 7,5 cm leichtes Infanteriegeschütz 18, aside from the larger shells. There doesn't seem all that much room for ammo with two trailers. Maybe that wheel on the bottom right is from a truck. That would explain it.
Also have you ever seen this website? Basically it is a large summing up of the insane number of different German trucks, both captured and produced. It also has some limbers for different artillery pieces. Makes very clear that most German horse drawn limbers also had to accommodate the crew.
www.kfzderwehrmacht.de/Homepage_english/homepage_english.html
Wehraboos got mad. LMAO
First,the picture:
These are indeed '10,5 cm Leichtgeschütz 40's,which were indeed recoilles guns,so they are not le. I.G. 18s.(Strange thing is that after 5 minutes of searching and looking on different photographs, I found the exact same type of weapon,but always with different wheels :D ) But this picture is still helpful in one way. I bet those trailers in the background carried the ammunition for them.
Second:
The following should start with this: If I remember correctly... Travel weight should be called 'towing weight', for a reason. Travel weight means only the gun and the necessary accessories to tow the gun from A to B.(That's why I sometimes hate English nomenclature[compared to Hungarian,at least], because it is not descriptive enough.) Nor crew, nor sandbags neither ammunition are counts as towing weight. Regarding the question of the le. I.G. 18's towing weight, that's the only thing I could find,and sadly,they don't list their sources on Infanteriegeschütze: www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waffen/Infanteriegeschutze.htm
The travel weight mentioned in the site is more believable.
Still, with a Kettenkrad, one either tows a le. I.G. 18 or the ammunition trailer for the weapon. You can't do both on rough terrain. I mean sure, one can even tow a PaK 40 with it on a reasonably flat surface(there is YT video about that stunt: ruclips.net/video/1x26xY7EpQM/видео.html ),but during war times, that's probably more of a rarity than a regularity. And someone/something still has to carry the ammo.
Interesting question arises when you talked about the army regulations as proof of something being done: what about things which were done practically but weren't in army regulations, or even more extreme case, what about things described in army regulations, which however weren't used in practice (for example, because it would prove ineffective/less effective than some non-regulation alternative, etc.)? How are those proven?
And to all these correct comments IT LOOKS LIKE A STAGED PHOTO!
These soldiers are to clean.
Have anyone here been driving a tractor with a trailer behind? Have anyone been driving offroad? You can pull almost anything with enough traction and low gears. The question is how fast and for how long until it bogs down or pushes you to much in a downhill or something breaks.
I am. But i am a qualified Mercedes Benz service technician, a truck driver and a part time farmer.😘👍
I see a light tracked tractor checking the "bogging down" mark quite well.
As the KettenKRad did away with track synchronisation and steering, I imagine its manufacture to be quicker and ressource-cheaper than, say, a "Raupenschlepper Ost (RSO)".
Breakage seems to be - for an Axis vehicle in the 1940s!!! - quite well, as it is praised for ruggedness and reliability. But good luck finding relevant statistics here.
"Give me a point of support and i will move the world"
@@zoompt-lm5xw "Einstein"👍
@@jorgschimmer8213 Archimedes
I have moved a fully loaded train car with a jack. Over 100 tonnes. But I’m not going going to move it very far, or up hill
Multiple tanks with Piat then hip firing a mortar at them.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Henry_Cain
Do or do not, there is no try. :)
Very true, worked at a frozen food warehouse. We were provided with a special crowbar to move railcars in an emergency!
Leverage is just amazing
For me it like seeing a Forklift in a Marina move a boat and trailer from one spot to another. Yes it can move it but I'm probably not going to go 10 miles down the street to put it in another Marina.
Bingo. There's tons of pictures of people using jeeps well above capacity. But that doesn't mean they're the primary moving vehicle for long marches.
Now imagine to get a lorry every time a boat has to be moved, or a lorry on standby for every small to medium shift of a boat instead of doing the long hauls.
Bonus points if your marina stands in an area where fuel, fuel supply, and lorry production are an issue. At some point Mister Ed and Francis the Talking Mule begin to be viable options.
Swiss infantry still has bicycles, and just abolished their homing pigeons a couple of decades ago. Reconnaissance, short distance repositionings, and getting combat engineers with their proverbial feather-light equipment through the last mile CAN BE viable scenarios.
German Imperial Railway Society (DRG) is best known for their express and freight engines 01/03 and 52. But take away the small shunters, and the whole system collapses. As demonstrated by German Railway authorities who indeed had to use 52s or 03s for shunting duty when no other engine was available. (They broke down quickly.)
@@familiehagen7116 yeah, any large truck depot will have truck shunters, they happily move fully loaded trailers around the yard, but you're not gonna haul with it.
Now in a war, with trucks destroyed you may really need to move those supplies, I could see a shunter being used to pull it ten miles. But it doesn't at all mean it's designed to do that, or the logistics crew would be happy. It'll probably brake down too, but if you don't have the right gear you make do with what you have to do what you need to do.
Just because you can doesn't mean you should, and just because you are, doesn't mean it's okay. **Shrugs**
@@tisFrancesfault correct, but that's not the point here. Was the KettenKRad to the best of contemporary knowledge too complicated for the rôle it played? The author of the video says yes, according to regulations. Others cite hearsay, which may sometimes be all you have (for under pressure, no one will make private photos of a KettenKRad towing artillery pieces from emplacement to emplacement).
If your artillery battery hasn't got a Halftrack, a KettenKRad and a civil motorcar, or bicycles... may have to suffice, with civil lorries or even Oxcarts hauling ammo.
What I understand is that the KettenKRad has much better all terrain capabilities than a Kübelwagen VW Beetle. You won't find artillery regulations with a KettenKRad, Mister Ed and Francis the Talking Mule plus Oxcart ammo supply, a Citroën protocol car and a Ford Ice Cream van. But good luck finding a single Axis military company (that isn't newly commissioned) around 1944.
+Forgotten Weapons made videos about end-of-war production Kar98k and Japanese firearms. There are multiple 3-letter codes for manufacturers that can no longer be decoded to any manufacturer, and from the weapons surviving in number and quality, "hobby carpenter down the corner to Bahnhofstraße, basement to the left" may have counted as a valid stock "manufacturer" then.
The whole reason we know there was a manufacturer of end-of-war Kar98oid rifles with the code "fkk" (pure example) is that we do *have* 2 rifles in the Royal Arms Museum and Rifle collection of the University of the Federal Defence Neubiberg with documented whereabouts before replicas were made. Now good luck discussing whether there was a use case for a hardware item then.
Familie Hagen my thought exactly. A field or anti tank gun is not always on the march. So if your neigbouring unit has a Kettenkraft and your heavy vehicle is already positioned more to the back it might be great for a short quick tow and laying some new radio cables. It might bot be the best at both... but it is more like a Swiss pocket knife maybe: sucks at all, but can do all of necessary
On a channel which is all about combat and worldwide destruction annoyed Bernard is still the most brutal thing featured.
..*AND* see you next time!
I think there are several issues here. One is the main one you mention which is that people confuse "X is possible" with "X is common and well-established". The other is a more specifically military history problem, which is that logistics is "boring". This isn't just because of popular media that almost never shows soldiers reloading or drawing ammo from the commissary or whatever. Even museums and parks can fall prey to this issue. I have been to many American Civil War battlefields in my life and they are all filled with many cannons from the 1860s, whether they be authentic pieces or very well made replicas. I must have seen several hundred unique pieces of artillery in my life on my travels, but the number of caissons and limbers that were displayed could easily be counted on one or two hands. So the average visitor gets the idea of the cannon firing and does not concern themselves with the laborious process of retrieving rounds from a safe distance to the rear. The focus is (much like popular media) on the exciting explosions and not all the support that allows those explosions to happen.
It's like a person who takes a long trip in their car and feels "free and independent", not realizing that their trip is only possible because of the many employees at the gas/petrol stations, the many people keeping restaurants open, the police who patrol the roads, the truckers who ship supplies to all the places the traveler stops at and probably the people in the shop who keep the car functioning (unless the person in question actually does their own garage work). We have a tendency to look at the world through a narrow telescope that focuses on only one aspect at a time when wide-angle binoculars would be much more appropriate.
mensch1066 The role of logistics, even amongst those of us that are involved in it, does tend to naturally lack that sort of romance. Even among those that fully recognize the importance, it does possess a less flashy quality to it.
It’s like the difference between marketing and accounting in a company. While accounting is more important, it’s hard to get people excited about hours of hard work to reduce overhead expenses by 3.2% over the previous quarter versus, say, a colorful new logo.
Dee Oh Dee Accounting is NOT more important than marketing. The most important department of a company is undoubtedly the sales department. You don’t sell, you go bankrupt.
C Alex logistic isn’t the most importante branch of the military, it’s the soldier. Without soldiers to protect the logistics the war is lost.
It’s the same logic, and it’s true in a sense. Without seal the company go bankrupt. And logistic can always be improved...
But without countable how will the company function?
Thank you so much. A lot people don't see the "big picture" , just theire narrow point of view. Because they don't want to.
Well I mean you don't have to be fucking depressed about having a good drive. Those people are doing their jobs. So what lol.
That was the most polite "Shut Up and sits down" i have ever heard... I like all your content, and i always look forward to new videos on All your channels.
Much as I dislike debate (and despise argument disguised as "debate") it has been my experience that many times, that is the most effective way to do just that. Anyone can rant, rave, swear and scream but it takes talent and knowledge to be able to eloquently and quietly take your opponent apart and then tell them "Now, shut up and sit down." Well done, sir, of MHNV. Well done, indeed.
“Professionals have standards”
What do you mean cats aren't melon harvesters? I have proof they are. Trust me, I've seen a picture of it.
12 and a half minute long slapping of a random facebook wiseguy. I approve 😂
I have photos of 2 girls driving a kettenkrad around a post-apocalyptic world.
Amazing
2 Girls 1 Kettenkrad is indeed a good alternative title for Girls' Last Tour
What a burn, historian style. I can see the glee in his eyes, ripping an internet warrior to shreds.
Dumbass commenter: *some condescending dumb shit*
Kraut with the sources: Du bist... Schon tot!
South Kraut, to be exact
Like Matt Easton of the Channel Scholagladiatoria likes to say, Context is Key.
And Context is such a lovely/important thing.
Legend says, if you say "Context" three times front of mirror, Matt Easton will appear.
You need to penetrate the subject deeply to understand it well ;)
I think what some took exception too, myself included, was the notion that the Kettenkrad couldn't tow larger loads than what it was intended to tow on a regular basis, and that it was only really useful for laying cables. Because part of what made the Kettenkrad such a useful little vehicle was infact that it could tow stuff much larger & heavier than itself when really needed, like for example in a tactical situation where a 7.5cm PaK40 needed to be moved a relatively short distance (from one side of town to the other etc), something I provided photos of in the comments section of the other video. Hence when relating to the title of "usefulness" the Krad scored very highly amongst the troops of both sides as a sort of swissarmyknife vehicle that could be used to solve a lot of everyday problems a Jeep or Kubelwagen for example couldn't.
I think the most important impact of this video will be a sudden spike in people googling "cats harvesting melons"
I think the "missing" weight is most likely cleaning kit, pioneer tools such as hammers, shovel, camo nets, etc. as well as selected spares and tools to keep the gun functioning and especially moving. That stuff adds up fast and is also important to support effective use of the gun.
Sorry you had to make this video.
I have a photo of Elvis driving a Kettenkrad with Bigfoot on the back and towing a King Tiger...
😄😄😄
With Jimmy Hoffa flying Haunebu at background.
How are you gonna explain that, Bernhard?!
That Bigfoot in your photograph was me in a previous life. Or so my dreams tell me.
In Area 51 photo archives.
Although this is only anecdotal, I've noticed that people often only take images of events and things that are exceptional, especially considering that photographic film was costly, time consuming and (in a war) difficult to develop. This makes many historical images a poor choice for establishing the commonality of an event or item if they do not have accompanying documentation.
This brings me to a point. Many people deride historians over archaeologists or similar disciplines due to their apparent fixation with documentation, 'women warrior graves' being a classic example of something that have absolutely no contextual documentation accompanying them. As noted in the video historians are extremely concerned with context because it is only with context that an event can be understood in any way. If there is no context then the scene is set for a wide ranging set of theories that vary widely in probability and as such are extremely prone to being interpreted according to whatever the societal lense the interpreter is using.
Historiography is a complex subject that I have no hesitation as classifying as a science. Many people unfortunately trot out trite old sayings such as 'the victors write history' and 'history is just an opinion' but are merely showing they have a stunning ignorance of what historiography is and how it operates. I really wish to emphasise there is a great difference between what is known as 'popular history' (which is more a form of journalism) and 'academic history'. The old sayings might well apply to popular history but in no way apply to academic history.
OK. Re: Hip Firing the MG-42.. For about 1 1/2 years I carried/was assigned an M-60 AKA "The Pig" when I was an infantry paratrooper with the US Army's 82nd Abn Div. The M-60 was an analog of the MG series of German Lt MGs developed after WW2 in the spirit of "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery". The M-60 was belt fed, fired the standard NATO 7.62mm round and weighed around 20 lbs. Could it be "Hip fired"? Absolutely! Did I ever "Hip fire it"? Yes I did. WOULD I "HIP FIRE" IT IN COMBAT?? HELL NO, other than IF extraordinary circumstance required it. Why?? Cause One: Ya can't hit dick doin it.. and Two: It'll get you killed really, really fast. Every opposing infantry type on that battlefield in range KNOWS that machine gun is the most dangerous thing to him personally at that instant in time. So every one of those SOBs is gonna be doing his dead level best to kill you ..AS FAST AS POSSIBLE... And there you are STANDING UP IN PLAIN SIGHT?!? Only in Hollywood my friends.. Only in Hollywood.
Arthur Brogden and here I was thinking you would be dual wielding those...
@@cynthiarunyon6789 A friend of mine who was in the ADF 3RAR said he hip fired two M60s as a joke with ten rounds on the belt. He said it's doable but you hit nothing and it was only for stunt.
Yes, agreed, but it also depends on the circumstances, if one is moving forward and you must provide your own suppressing fire while doing so then firing from the hip is certainly a legitimate use of an M60, aside from handling one myself in the Army (along with my next door neighbors M60 who's a class 3 collector) I can reference many films of soldiers in Vietnam firing them from the hip while advancing forward, you certainly wouldn't want to try to shoulder fire it under those circumstances, firing it from the hip would be far more accurate under those circumstances, also there's countless pictures and films of troops in WW2 firing M1919's from the hip while holding the barrel shroud in their left hand with a heavy glove or having made an improvised carrying handle from wire with a wooden handle.
One more thing, and I witnessed this personally, I was at a machinegun shoot once where a guy shot an M1919 from the hip while holding the barrel shroud in his left hand with a welding glove and he was definitely raking targets downrange with good accuracy, I mean if you'd have been anywhere down there you'd have been in serious trouble with this guy handling it, so it's a matter of practice practice practice.
One last thing and it concerns the old myth about the M60 just being an imitation of the MG42, that's not nearly as true as people think it is, the ONLY feature of the M60 that's a knock-off of the MG42 is the feed pawl assembly, every other part or system of the M60 aside from the feed pawl is either original to it's design or taken from other sources, the gas system for example is from the Lewis Gun, as is the gas system of the German FG42, it's also a copy of the Lewis Gun's gas system.
P.S. (fun fact) At the machinegun shoot I was at when the guy fired the M1919 from the hip he said "Watch this, I'm gonna burn the barrel off this thing", when he started firing it he had his buddy linking belts together and once the guy pulled the trigger he didn't let go of it, he did it at twilight and after a bit you could see the barrel turn red hot, then it started spewing red hot metal out of the barrel while it was firing and he just kept going until it finally locked up at which point he threw it down on the ground and turned and walked away from it (it must be great to have that kind of fun money).
@@dukecraig2402 "Handling one" while in the Army.. For what pray tell? Familiarization fire? I spent 6 years as an 11B3P, I hold a CIB. In that year and a half I was "On the gun"; I blew thousands and thousands of rounds down range thru my "Pig". I am/was an Honest-to-God "Expert" on the M-60. As I acknowledge YES you can "hip fire it". NO it's a terrible no good very very bad idea to try it in combat..ACTUAL COMBAT.. NOT AT SOME GUN RANGE WHERE NO-ONE IS SHOOTING BACK. ABTW The US Army hasn't employed "walking fire" on the tactical advance since WW1. We "advance by bounds" using short rushes with an overwatch element providing suppressive fire AKA the other guy/guys in the other squads using the OTHER LMGs to provide it. SHEESH.
YOU "Sport" are the reason he made this video. Just because something CAN be done.. Doesn't mean it should be or that it's even remotely a good idea. "Your buddy on a gun range".. Dear. God.
If I were EVER your Squad Leader and saw you pulling that "John Wayne" CR@P in combat (absent extraordinary circumstance ie. We're literally being over-run and hand to hand is seconds away) I'd be sorely tempted to shoot you myself for A, Drawing all that enemy fire onto the squad's position; and B. Risking the damage or destruction of our best weapon as they shoot your azz to ribbons.
Amen! Hip fire and blow through your ammo doing nothing or take some cover and maybe kill some of the enemy. You know, before you are out of all that heavy ammo everyone has been carrying.
Okay, for some reason, this is my favorite series of videos from you. The Kettenkrad is the coolest vehicle ever created.
You also forgot to mention the Mailman from "Santa Claus is comin to town" had a special version of the Kettenkrad with dual skis on the front!
That was actually a commercially available mod from Ford for the Model A. Not uncommon in the upper mid-west in the 20s-30s. My dad remembered his uncle (my great uncle) having one when he was little (about 1928 or so).
I always liked that little ride.
Bravo on immediately saying "So keep your condescending 'your' to yourself." It's unreal how much social media seems to have simultaneously killed people's ability to have a decent discussion without being rude/condescending to one another while boosting the showing of 'internet muscles,' i.e., tough guys speaking to others in a way that they most likely would never do, were they face to face. You called it out directly and openly, and kudos to you for doing so.
That photo proves nothing - it's 10,5 LG 40 as stated, which was a very light gun designed for Fallschirmjäger units, it could even be "towed" by two men.
It was one of the "special features" of Kettenkrad - its transportability by a plane (Ju 52) and hence the ability to support the landed troops. I believe this setup (Kkrad+gun) was their heaviest equipment transportable by air - basically a "halftrack transportable by a plane".
Maybe a topic for the series: Kettenkrad and Fallschirmjäger?
Maybe it is the reason why we see Kettenkrad in so many various (unintended?) roles, because there was no use for them with FJ after Crete?
Great explanatory video as always! Greetings from Vienna!
@Mactrip100 Not very far for sure, that's right, just enough to change the position if necessary. I was referring more to the intended use by the paratroopers - mostly they had 'only' to land and hold (airfield, bridge etc.). But yes, in a muddy and hilly terrain and covering longer distances - you definitely need more power. (Btw. there was also a similar 2-men cart for the ammo or supplies)
The Kettenkrad was a useful vehicle and like the Jeep could do some very amazing things for short distances on difficult terrain. So you can probably find videos and photos of both doing some amazing things at least for short distances.
Unlike the Jeep, which was a military design, the Kettenkrad was a civilian design for off-road uses such as logging (the Tank Museum has a video the it noting its origins). Its civilian purpose paralleled military applications that made it appealing the German army. The fact that it could airlifted into battle was an accidental bonus of its design. The original manufacturer of the Kettenkrad was a motorcycle manufacturer which influenced its design.
Honestly now... how many went and looked up "cats harvesting melons" after watching this? I did.
As my Grandad used to say, "That's put the cat amongst the melons!"
Your channel, the Tank Museum at Bovington and Forgotten Weapons all did stuff on this adorable little tracked vehicle recently. Might be a nice shout to get hold of these guys to do a combined "disambiguation" video.
This is like the "American soldiers all cooked food in their helmets" myth that gets perpetuated because one person's grandpa did it.
Tank museum just uploaded another Kettenkrad video,they mention the pullng of light field guns.Question marks are usually ignored.
When they put the 15cm SiG33 on Pz.kpw. I (bison?) how did they manage with so few crew members for gun and vehicle.I wouldve thought a Kettenkrad would be useful in poor conditions to manouevre the gun,its grip bieng its forte,rather than pulling power.It was built for forestry where pulling logs would be a task?Depends how big the log and how far you want to carry it, i suppose.' I was taught 'over RT network always consider the person your communicating with is a foot wider,and a foot taller than you are,and is sitting opposite you.(and could reach your throat with thier hands).
Not to put gasoline on a fire, but the Tank Museum Tank Chat 94 also has a still of a Kettenkrad parked in front of a Tiger I, which could be interpreted as an image of a towing arrangement. However, the Kettenkrad is clearly named “Baby Kate” and probably a captured vehicle.
IT specifically mentions pulling the 37mm AT, not light field guns !!
I thought he said 'field guns',sorry. I was just pointing out that 'pulling guns' was mentioned.Whether 37mm isnt a 'field gun' is beyond my expertise.I just build model's of them."THE" 37mm can't fire HE?
I have an appreciation for anyone who without hesitation, can make an apology in public. Love your work Bernhard, thanx.
Arrogance buries the soul,
Humility gives the soul wings.
I' ve wanted to go out now but MHnV uplodaded...
A rifle without ammunition is just a pipe attached to a stick.
No ammo, not a gun. Same principle applies to arty.
A stick used for clubbing, add a bayonet to that bad boy and you get a spear for stabbing.
Nice reply. This sort of thing happens a lot on twitter. I may use this video to reply to some of the comments I get there.
few things to note about towing and load capacities for tracked vehicles: They can generally tow and carry far more than their rated numbers, especially on improved roads. The problem arises when you want to move at an appreciable speed. Say you want to road march at 50km/h. That Kettenkrad can definitely tow that field gun, and can probably carry most of its crew and some of its ammo. But can you do the 50km/h the road march requires?
50km speed March in WW2 Soviet territory? On Soviet roads?! xD
Anyway, Kettenkrad is good mover in front position.
For my job we often have more stuff to haul across country than our vehicles can handle. The solution is that all the heavy and bulky stuff is loaded onto the vehicle (usually a 4 wheeler or a large goat) and the rest of the crew walks and is shuttled forward as the gear is unloaded. The Kettenkrad wasn't meant for long hauls, just for schlepping heavy and cumbersome stuff over difficult ground. Speed was not the point, fatigue was. So part of the 7 man crew for a gun could walk to the destination and get there reasonably close to the time that the gun and ammo arrived.
Wasn't the Sd. Kfz. 251/3 a command vehicle with radios, and the Sd. Kfz. 251/4 was the towing vehicle for the le. IG 18?
Being x military I can say that equipment will be used only as approved in camp. In the field any equipment handy will be used to get the job done.
Yes Sir, correct.
Question I am only able to watch on my phone. Are you able to make clickable links for sources? As long as it's secure please.
Outstanding video and presentation.
I grew up on a small farm, Doing things you shouldn't nor really wanted to do wasn't uncommon.
I can totally see them being used to shunt guns around. But the idea of it being used to tow for any real distance is unlikely, though i could see it where they had no choice.
If you had no other option, no horses and the trucks damaged, you might say "fuck it, hook it up to that, and try towing as far as you can to the new position" it doesn't mean it's at all good for the job, but sometimes it might be all have available.
So yeah it was likely done, but whenever it was I assure you it ment someone wasn't at all happy with having to do it.
tisFrancesfault as a former farm worker, I can confirm.
What about the tiny Gerlich AT gun, have there pictures of kettenkrad pulling it?
Thank you for publicly addressing this, it’s to expected for all people to make mistakes, what matters most is that people possess the courage to come back admit a mistake and correct or further explain themselves.
Many people are incapable of doing for reasons of excessive pride.
Thank you for the openness and clarity, and keep up the fantastic work.
This guy seems like one of the nicest people you could meet, yet I have seen people get kind of vicious in the comments sometimes.
The first time I saw this, it seems comments were turned off. Imagine my reaction to someone complaining about condescension, giving a lecture, and turning off comments! I'm glad to find out it was a bug, not a feature.
As always an Outstanding video and presentation. Thank you!
Motorized arms and horse drawn arms had different towing ears (Protzösen).
Protzöse, hab ich noch nie gelesen, man lernt echt nie aus...
My dad had an old chevy s10 that we used for hauling firewood. We would load it till the fenders almost touched the wheels and then pull an over loaded 1 ton trailer for good measure. Thing was, it was only going half a mile down the road and only used a couple times a year till it died.
By coincidence Tank Chats #94 | Kettenkrad and Springer was also released 9 hours ago. You were beaten by 3 hours.
Hope you coming to Militracks 2020, and I get to say high this time haha :)
the pionier 251 or a difrent one also runs there almost every year.
I watched a you tube video put out by CZUCZU titled "Was wollen wir trinken" (Wehrmacht) (Reupload). At the 5:07 timeline, it shows a German soldier standing behind a Stug, hip firing a light machine gun. It does not appear to be an MG 34, however. It gives no reference as to weather or not the soldier had indeed chosen the Stug life, or the Stug life chose him.
way to answer for your mistakes in a youtube video with another youtube video but in another decade
Seeing a kettenkrad pull something really heavy? "It must be ceremonial". Greetz to Metatron.
As for hip firing the MG34... I have no idea if the German army taught soldiers to do it or not, but American Soldiers were trained on how to fire the M60 GPMG from the hip: www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-22-68/c05.htm
I do recall seeing numerous photos of Germans resting the barrel on the shoulder of another soldier and firing the MG34 or MG42 while standing. I'm very curious if this was routinely done considering the noise, heat and flash of the firing MG.
I saw a wartime pictureof a Kettenkrad: pulling a ME-262.
You told me a bunch of stuff I know already. Keep doing it. Other people need to know this stuff too.
Can anybody identify the type of unit from the uniforms? Recoilless gun and Kettenkrad tow would make perfect sense for a paratroop unit.
That was a very clear explanation, thank you, keep up the good work.
Feeling super spoiled by all the Kettenkrad videos people are making lately. Thank you
and THAT is how you tell a professional historian from an amateur -- gut gemacht!
The Australian Army used to tow L5 pack howitzers with land-rovers... but, decided it was overloaded and started using trucks.... You could tow a gun with a motorcycle, if necessary... if hard-pressed, but why would you?
I own an infantry training book (der Reibert) of the very early Bundeswehr and there are indeed detailed instructions about hip firing the mg3 (basically mg42).
As the early Bundeswehr included former professional Wehrmacht soldiers in leading positions and thereby obviously included their military ideas (and experience) it is not unreasonable to assume that these techniques were teached so in the Wehrmacht as well.
Never pick a fight with a historian. Researching facts is their profession!
Good for you!! There will always be someone who will throw stray 'facts' at you without providing support data. Sadly, we will never run out of this kind of person. I love your work and look forward to each offering. Keep it up.
Regardless of anything else, Herr Kast certainly understands politicians at least as well as his main subject. ;-)
Excellent reply. It was a pity the commentator had not put a little more thought into his response prior to posting it. As you so rightly pointed out, context IS everything. To name two photos from the period that support this, 1. A Stug3 with schurzen painted as if by Picasso. Does this mean all Stug3's were painted like this and that it was an authorised camouflage pattern-NO. 2. A Sdkfz250 with what looks to be a light Renault car balanced on it moving down a dusty street. This does not mean that 250's were regularly used to transport broken down light cars about.
Melon-harvesting cats confirmed. It's history now.
Austria is so organised, even the stray cats have collars!
so when are we getting a horse and wagon video since thats what the germans mostly used
Kettenkrad best motorcycle half track
Motorcycle half track?What was that?
İt’s built by German Engineering!
guten Morgen lieber MHnV ;)
Zu dem Thema Kettenkrad und Zuglasten: Von welchem Kettenkrad wird gespochen? Dem kleinen Kettenkrad (HK101) oder dem Kettenkrad(HK102)?
Zu dem Thema Kettenkräder haben zu wenig Möglichkeiten zur Zuladung/Bedienmannschaftstransport usw. das stimmt vollkommen bei dem leichten Kettenkrad, da dieses maximal 2 Personen zusätzlich zum Fahrer platz bietet, welche maximal für die 3,7cm Pak "ausreichend" wäre. Allerdings gibt es noch das "große" Kettenkrad, welches ein verlängertes Laufwerk hatte( 6 Laufrollen anstatt dem vieren beim kleinen Kettenkrad), und was speziell zum ziehen von leichter Artillerie/Flak/Steilfeuerwaffen(8cm Beutegranatwerfer der Sowjets inkl Munitionsanhänger)genutzt werden sollte. Diese variante bot insgesamt 8 zusätzliche Sitzplätze(inkl zweier Notsitze)da die Aufbauten um 30cm verlägert und um 15cm verbreitert wurden, allerdings wurden nur 30 Prototypen gefertigt ,aber man findet Online viele Bilder dieser Variante, ob diese bei der Erprobung oder aus Propaganda Zwecken entstanden sind, kann man natürlich schwer sagen, aber eventuell erklärt das die Konfusion beim Thema Kettenkrad und was man alles mit ihm ziehen kann/konnte. Was natürlich auch nicht außer acht gelassen werden darf, ist der konstante Mangel an Zugmaschinen, in der Wehrmacht, deshalb wurden viele Kettenkräder nicht gerade "nach Vorschrift" genutzt, sondern manchmal auch einfach nur überladen oder mit zu großer Anhängelast versehen, denn lieber einen möglichen Verlust eines Geschützes riskieren beim Bergen mit einem unterdimensionierten Zugkraftwagen, als das Geschütz einfach aufzugeben. Speziell aus Russland findet man da einige relativ spektakulär beladene Kettenkräder, u.a. mit einer 2cm flak 38 und der dazugehörigen Ausrüstung(ersatzläufe Munition und Bedienmannschaft), oder im Tandemzug als Schleppfahrzeuge zum LKW´s aus dem Schlamm ziehen, usw. usw. WIe gesagt, die karge Materiallage zwang die Soldaten das vorhandene Material so zu nutzen, daß es den größten Effekt hatte, und wenn ein Kettenkrad beim Zug einer 5cm Pak(beispiel)ausfällt, naja, dann hat man immer noch eine einsatzfähige Waffe, und kann seinem Kampfauftrag weiter folgen, als die Waffen zurückzulassen weil man die "Vorschriften" beachtet. Ausserdem waren Kettenkräder viel "einfacher" an die Friont zu bringen als z.b. das Sd.KFZ 251, da die Kettenkräder mit einer JU52 eingeflogen werden konnten, oder per LKW "angeliefert" wurden, während die Sd.Kfz 251 entweder per Bahn oder in Marschfahrt an die Front gebracht wurden, deshalb denke ich, das man so viele Bilder des leichten Kettenkrad findet, wo eigentlich "unmögliches" zu sehen ist, da der Verlust eines kettenkrades wesentlich einfacher zu verschmerzen war, als das eines "Eisenschweins" ;)
wrong or not, your original video inspired me to build my own half-track motorcycle tractor from a broken down Goldwing 1100 I have and a bunch of spare parts, powered by a VW type-2 engine. so while some people like to argue petulantly, know that you've actually contributed to real things happening right now.
Whenever you've made a mistake you've always publicly corrected it that I know of. I had an online discussion with someone about ESP all I did was ask them to provide the name of the scientist or researcher the name of the scientific paper and the name of the scientific journals published in for pre review that back up their statement that it has been tested and was repeatable. 15 replies later he still had not done so. Some people are going to believe what they want to believe no matter what facts and evidence say. And it doesn't matter what topic it's about either frankly it's ridiculous. If you had legitimate factual evidence that proves that what I believe is wrong my view changes.
Dave shrum, it’s called Brexitosis.
Those types of people are the ones that make me think of the quote from the original Star Trek series, speaking of a race called Tellarites: "Tellarites do not argue for a reason; they simply argue."
The length at which people will go to argue about obscure facts siderates me. I mean, come on, a discussion about the general usefulness of a ww2 half-track bike did not in any way necessitates a long and angry rant about cherry-picked sentences ("look! I found a photo seemingly contradicting one thing you said!"). Please continue your excellent work and do not consider that kind of person as representative of your viewership.
There was a lot of information in this video and his point was a good one, if he would have been brought forward in a different way. He actually apologized publicly on facebook btw.
Interesting as always.
Superb video!
Nice well controlled rebuttable to a "know it all blow hard". One thing I have to point out, you put yourself out there, ie your face and identity is out there for all to see. Well done. The "know it all blow hard" is hiding behind their anonymity.
Don’t forget, travel weight includes 7 men, their kit, plus the ammo, plus the gun maintenance kit.
I can push a 1978 Chevrolet caprice classic for short distances on smooth level terrain. By the commenters logic, this means I should be classified as able to do whatever the 305 CI V8 engine it comes equipped with is capable of... lol, I see a minor flaw in that logic
I have seen a picture of a Kettenkrad in front of a Tiger 1 ,so what people don’t realize is that it was also a recovery vehicle for Tigers ;-)
I would certainly love a Kettenkrad to work on, maintain, repair and fun days out..
Great video and very good points!
Tiny wheeled hauling vehicles, weighing a few tons, can pull airplanes weighing a few hundred tons on airport runways. How could a tracked vehicle not be able to pull a field gun whose weight is also about a few tons?
When you get so mad at a random comment that you make a 12 minute video about it
Cannot tell if sarcastic or not.
James Ice As a native German speaker I can tell he is pretty pissed and holding back some rather rude comments he’d like to make XD
Calling the person he made the video with “your Herr...” is pretty insulting, especially for a (military) historian.
@@ReptilianLepton he lost his cool on an internet discussion, do you understand how petty and childish this is?
@@rafaeltait1203 Pleeese! He's Austrian, They're very serious about getting things right. I liked it.
@@SS-wd5wi he being mad is not the problem. The problem is people over glorifyng the fact that he is mad
Towing a wheeled cart on a flat, dry surface is different than towing it on hilly and/or muddy, snowy conditions. Rated towing capacity accounts for this.
Since first video I was wandering what made a diference between combat and travel weight. So, combat weight is a waight of a gun itself, and travel is counted with all the aditional stuff you need to carry?
So Kettenkrad IS able to pull le.IG 18. Not very practical then you move whole unit acros the front, but on the tactical level, quite usefull. 3 Kettenkrads can move a gun with crew and suplies acros battlefield and are smaller, easier to hide then Sd.Kfz
Pulling a gun and crew? Lol what 37mm anti tank? The gearbox is a scaled down cleveland tractor. From the squadron book kettenkrad in action. As i recall it was a light tractor and used as such. I d love to have one
This reminds me of the M3 halftrack video you did with Cheiftan where weird models that shouldn't happen would always have some weird example on a stamp or photograph. You guys joked about it for a few minutes as you digressed. That few minutes made me laugh because it was so true. Funny how you mention it now when I just saw that video today. Then again, I saw someone pile furniture on a scooter in China (yes, I saw it in person, a couch and desk, I felt I was drunk or in a dream when I was looking at it. My friend verified my memory and we talked of it later and often). Lesson I learned: humans will always find unique and seemingly impossible uses of whatever equipment they have.
Looks like we have the cyber truck thing all over again
Well stated. Context is everything.
Spot on, keep up the good work.
Thank you to all the cats that harvest melons from the sea.
When in the service I was an aircraft tower on my sqdn (amongst other things). We used the Westland Wessex and then the Westland Sea King. Neither was meant to be towed by a Land Rover (the Wessex could be in extremis) but I have used one to tow both aircraft, albeit on a metalled surface but it did include an up hill section. I try not to remember the smell of the clutch from the Land Rover. The tractor was a much better idea.
To play devil’s advocate the title loved but useless maybe a little hyperbolic. Either way both videos were great keep up the good work.
> To play devil’s advocate the title loved but useless maybe a little hyperbolic.
Well, the answer in the video was a "no" and also sadly that is how RUclips works, because many other channels that put far less emphasis in their research play also the title/thumbnail game. I would love to go back to 2016 were I didn't think for the most part about the title, but nobody cares if I spent 10, 20, 30 or even 40 hours, when the title does not catch the attention, no views.
You handled that well, I also enjoyed the original Video. There must have many desperate "non-regulation" combinations attempted as German troops retreated from various sticky situations pulling anything they could with anything available.
...you have been served! LOL NICE reply!
Politicians are Untrustworthy?????? My entire world view has been shattered
Also probably worth mentioning that ok great so maybe a kettenkrad could pull possibly an IG 18, that's great but really that's of next to no actual use, the crew isn't getting carried in the vehicle nor is any of the ammo or other equipment so really what would be the point in even doing it? You'd need a second vehicle just to move the crew and ammo...
As someone that likes to help out drivers that are stuck in the snow, I have occasionally pulled a lightly stuck semi truck (articulated lorry) with my little 4X4 SUV. And, earlier this month, a local TV station took video of me doing this and showed it on there news. I'm sure they didn't take the video to show future generations that this was a common practice in 2020, and it certainly doesn't demonstrate that a small SUV is good at towing large trucks. In fact, it seem most likely to me that they showed this on the news precisely because it was so unusual. I suspect the same was true in WWII -- the unusual is more likely to attract the attention of photographers (still or motion) than the everyday occurrence is.
I can provide video proof that people tow planes, trucks and trains and thus it must be a common thing
And today's 'Tank Chats' with David Wiley from the Tank Museum at Bovington was the Kettenkrad.
If it has a trailer hitch on the back it can tow a trailer. I suspect a small gun or effective amount of various kinds of ammunition. The German Army would not keep using some thing useless.
I think this is a classic case of troops in the field using what they had in ways it was not made for. I'm sure troops in that time used that little cart to pull all sorts of stuff it was never made for it's war weird stuff happens