Maybe you should stop offering an encryption services. It doesn't cost you anything. Maybe you are part of the problem? If you offer to encrypt a service, you are the problem to the rest of us. You and your fellow money makers. Tell the rest of 'em to stop offering the encryption service and we can all go ahead with our scanning. Just saying.
Ant what on earth are you on about? I don't offer encryption services? I don't even work with or in radio? I certainly make no money from radio either. Maybe you should watch and listen to the video properly before coming on talking absolute rubbish. Just saying!
Ant Massey, picture this. A member of your family is missing. The search and rescue team has found them. Seriously injured. The entire town knows the news and it’s all over social media before the police even get chance to sit you down and explain. Because someone posted there frequencies on Facebook/the internet, and they aren’t encrypted. Honestly, everyone is entitled to privacy. Money has no part to play. Lewis even said “it usually doesn’t cost anything, just a reprogramming session on the network. And this is normally not charged for”.
@@RingwayManchester SO in your video. You stated that you work on radios. And you offer services. 3:45. So pay attention to your own video. And yea. He's kinda right. lol Share away people! fuc em. I have no love for any business but my own. Don't care if it costs them money.
You do make some ineresting points however there is no such thing as "secure" in public mobile radio terms. Someone once said to me many years ago, "You should never say on a radio, any radio, something that you are not prepared to shout across a busy public house." This sentiment has stuck with me ever since. So any company that is using radio, analogue/digital, encypted or not, should operate under the assumption that many people ARE listening, and refrain from transmitting sensitive information over the air. The onus is on them as users, NOT me and you.
Many years ago I maintained a "secret squirrel" radio scheme, when the frequencies it used plus interestingly the name of it (inside info) appeared on a scanning group on the internet it's fate was sealed. Those of us that worked on it always knew it was not secure but being published on the internet made it fair game not just for interception but also possible jamming.
Nice to see you drumming up a bit of debate Lewis!! Unfortunately it's not like the "old days" of analogue where only a select number of Business Radio users could encrypt or scramble their systems and posting frequencies was harmless to a degree. Digital radio has changed all that and certainly changed the scanning hobby. I 100% agree with your views about posting DMR or other digital findings Lewis. Makes perfect sense. Good video, 73, Brian
I agree 100%, If a frequency is found and interesting to listen too, it is not worth it putting the details where it can be seen as it doesn't take much before the user changes the frequency or goes encrypted and then it means another fun thing lost again through someone not taking 5 minutes and thinking. It can take years to find out who is using a certain frequency and to listen you pay out money for the equipment that you listen with only for it to become useless as it no longer is able to receive the user because you have spread the details around and the user has been informed they're being listened too.
Good video Lewis. Completely agree, it's just about not making it too obvious, people have mentioned the WTR on the OFCOM site, but very few companies will see that as risk, but as you say a post of FB from sand random Joe with the companies "private" frequency will always make someone act.
Great point lewis, I hope people can learn from your video, I am going to explain there is away round the encryption keys as a cybersecurity analysis, I know how encryption keys work and designed a little peace of software I use on my SDR to gain the encryption key and enter it in my radio and its never taken anymore than 20 seconds to find the key. I know its not illegal to gain or share the encryption but I just don't share outside of a few friends and never on the internet. Thanks Lewis for getting the word out.
It is in the UK. Its illegal to listen to any messages not intended for general broadcast or directed to you. That said, how someone proves you've been doing so is another matter.
Our police department doesn’t even share but license plate numbers, but they try to share that information by other means. Ems on the other hand now, they tend to share hippa protected information, plus they use p25 phase I/II encryption so analog scanners can’t decide the signals
It's not so much the sharing of frequencies, as radio nerds like us wouldn't act upon the information or use it for malicious purposes. It's more people using the information for shady activities, such as some tech savvy chav monitoring shopwatch frequencies so they are one step ahead to steal from retail outlets. Not forgetting in a post 9/11 world, nowadays we are more paranoid about terrorists acts in major cities. I've heard it all from back in the day, when the emergency services were plastered all over the VHF/UHF spectrum in a mixture of AM and NFM - but none of it was discussed. The companies dealing with selling DMR radio solutions to customers need to be completely transparent as to how secure the networks are and the information that is broadcast upon them; in other words, in an environment where the information is confidential then they should suggest encryption rather than simply taking the customer's money and running with it and giving them clear DMR.
Anyone with an rtl-sdr, and SDR#, can use the DSD Plus plugin to "scan" the entire VHF/UHF spectrum for any and all people using digital radios, as well as analog. You can't expect privacy if you're not encrypting your communications. You also shouldn't be using 5 watt radios that can be picked up 4, 8, 12 miles away on a md-380 or baofeng. Maybe I don't understand the point here, but if I ran a large box store, or warehouse, whatever... I would invest my money into lots of wired access points for total WiFi coverage across the site, (most already have this step done) and then buy IP radios. Now no one can hear anything, and my IT guy can deal with managing it all. Plus you can now use those radios across multiple sites, or your house if you want. It's all encrypted, and no scanner is going to pick any of it up.
I feel like real-time streaming of public safety comms is what’s killing the hobby (looking at you RadioReference/Broadcastify). Agencies are pointing to teens using phones to know the cops are coming, and they are refusing to add a delay to the feed. They are literally driving this hobby and their own source of income to extinction.
I've also noticed recently some businesses I occasionally listen to have switched to DMR in the last 3 months. Some of them probably should have moved from analogue years ago, but others I wouldn't have expected so much. Lewis, I also live in your listening area of the world.
Similar here. The sheriff's department is unencrypted analog, state DPS is unencrypted P25 trunked (I've got an EFJ Ascend ES doing output scan to listen to them), and the business radio system I run is P25 using AES.
Hey Lewis, that's one very interesting topic, thanks for the video. One question that came to me while watching was that, with the general data protection regulation, shouldn't encryption on the airwaves be mandatory once personal data like license plates is transmitted? Listening to DMR now requires a 10€ USB-Receiver and some freely downloadable software, business frequency ranges are also public. When finding and receiving radio traffic is that easy, I would assume that you are required to implement encryption, since you are well aware of the risk according to the GDPR. This might be an interesting question to ask your lawyer, especially when you're the one installing the radio system. I'm super curious for the answer to this question. Keep up your great videos! :)
Was in a similar situation in early 90's. There was no or very limited access to the Internet at that time, while FIDO-net was quite popular. An intercity telephone switch had some "secret" codes. For example, dialing a code followed by a local telephone number allowed to make the ringer ring like a long-distance call, despite it was made within the town. I happened to share this code in a local Fido-net echo-conference, and after not much awhile they just disabled or changed all those codes. So, share behind the closed doors.
Dear Ringway Manchester (M3HHY) your RUclips videos are quite popular here in the States, so are another British chap who calls himself Knoxieman. You both hail from across the pond. Knoxieman (G7LNK) is a bloke down in Oxfordshire and you are in Manchester. According to Siri, your locations are about 150 apart. That’s a stretch for amateur repeaters but since you both post absolutely wonderful radio testing it would be great if you did something cooperatively. Thanks for all of the work you guys put in testing radios for the masses.
Thanks very much! We can’t make contact through repeaters but we are planning a meet up after the pandemic subsided. Me and Paul are really good friends! I’ll pass it on.
There are two problems here. 1. The hobby of radio scanning reaching obsolescence. A fair comment watching your video, it's completely understandable wanting to defend the hobby. But the second issue... Businesses sharing sensitive information in the clear and not realising it until they find their information on social media. I would not make excuses for my bank failing to secure my data in transit, so why are we excusing other businesses from doing so? I personally think we should actively engage with businesses to discuss and demonstrate the information they leak to the public and actively encourage use of encrypted communications for commercial and sensitive data. As you say they are mere users of radio services, they may not necessarily be aware of the security implications. I think the cost posed to the hobby whilst possibly heavy, is a necessary one to bear due to the impact leaked information can have to a service.
Serious users are now shifting to either POC (UK hosted server) or full 256bit encrypted DMR.. most are doing so either complying with company processes around GDPR or have mission critical needs eg medical, that may as you mentioned carry info that has to be shared quickly but may also be considered personal or sensitive. There are also a lot of DECT devices emerging in retail, like ( www.vocovo.com) days of scanning are numbered, I'm not sure its a bad thing really. I went to Birmingham Christmas market yesterday and saw the giant barriers at either end, seems daft the local shopwatch or market officials could have open radio coms when you see expenditure on such "in your face" crowd protection from physical attacks. After all an advanced encryption licence on a batch of handsets is cheap and takes less than a second to enable.. Any closed group radio I set up in my day job I enable the fullest encryption possible by default in accordance with the issued licence, occasionally we have to add an existing handset to the group but that's easy to do.. sign of the times really...
Over here in the states, I hear names, DOB, addresses and social security numbers in the clear over analog. If you don't carry an ID, this is the way local law enforcement verifies your identity.
Keep the information to yourself. This could be the last decade we can still listen,before tech gets so advanced that we are locked out completely. Be discrete and sensible. Good topic Lewis.
Any one can look up information on radio licenses, frequencies, locations, and modes. It's public information... There's nothing secret about the frequencies. If the user is worried about being secure they can enable encryption. If you divulge what you hear that's another story.
But the public listings don't give all the paramaters required to actually listen to a digital frequency. CC, slot, tg's and freq are needed, and they don't provide all of that.
On my DMR radio a long press of a button and its encrypted. dead easy to implement. If forums allow such information to be posted, Im not talking Facebook, but private radio forums, then they should not allow Google bots onto their forum as once google has crawled through posts they are then public for a google query to find.
SDR radio and a sniffing app reveals all frequency and channel settings info now a days ... Dont even need to ask anymore its open to the public now a days XD
I entirely agree its bad for the hobby as well as for the business concerned. unfortunately a lot of frequencies are shared in public on Facebook radio groups, and whether they happen to be private groups or not makes no difference because anybody can request to join! so those members could be absolutely anyone! either from the company or even Ofcom. this is why digital frequencies should never be shared in the public domain online. infact if anyone attempts to share them on a group the Admin should remove the content and warn them that if they persist they will be banned from the group.
sadly all the info about a companys dmr freq are in the public domain including info like licence renewal dates, freq and licence holders etc via offcoms website ..... i understand the point being made but unfortunatley the info is available and free to obtain.
While is might be on offcoms website it's not combed by search engines etc which companies may use to see what's being said about them. Also think the they have taken it down too.
there is a care home near me that uses PMR analogue and you hear them all the time . sometimes there will be patients names mentioned but other staff will tell them not to use the persons name .
If people & company's don't give out sensitive info over a radio and treat them like they can be heard by everyone no matter what. Then they would not have anything to worry about in the first place.
Usually this situation feeds the need for lucrative technology upgrades by government agencies and corporations, some times they don't even work like Open Sky Radio Systems.
Another great video Lewis, as I am on way to get licensed, start my online training with Essex ham training, I have one question and would like to ask you as thanks your videos I decided to do license, my question is during training i should do some radio contact in practice, I am struggling to get in touch with Preston club, so how I can do this without a call sign or I should not
@@RingwayManchester one problem at present is that with lockdown and the suspension of practical assessments there are people whose first opportunity to key up is when their callsign pops through their letterbox / into their inbox from Ofcom. i'm scratching that itch as well at the minute and it doesn't really bother me having used 'real' PMR and emergency services stuff in the past
I try to stay on top of emerging technologies for my business radios. We use encrypted DMR right now mainly, but we use Zello as well, and are considering moving to that as primary (private Zello channels as well as ALL of Zello Work are encrypted.) If I really need to be discrete I have a set of Sainsonic FM416's (that Lewis made me buy), guarantee that not many people in the US are going to be able to eavesdrop on encrypted dPMR. 😉
I've being saying this for year's, yes the info is out there on ofcoms website, methods of getting TG CC slot etc are all over youtube, if your clever enough to program a radio up, your clever enough to get your own info. and please click the RX only box, don't spoil it for the rest of us
Very well explained as i have thought in the hobby to listen to some radio freqs my self but i can see what you mean if you find some thing good to listen to keep it to a select few
I think that happened to a local junkiewatch aka shopwatch scheme near me. It used to be in the clear, then just went encrypted I believe. Also, some devious individuals can programme their DMR handies to cause deliberate QRM to these commercial users.
Interesting subject. I didn't realise this was an issue. I guess the lesson would be to always have the commercial radios encrypted from the start? I guess as Radio Amateurs, there is an expectation of trust and a sense of responsibility expected from us but clearly, as you say, there could well be very sensitive information being transmitted by the commercial users, and those with less than innocent intent , could be a real problem. Thanks for the video, 73 :-)
If you do not want the general public listening to your comms, then surely they should be encrypted in the first place. e.g. shop security - you don't want a professional shop lifting gang listening in on you,it will just make their job (the shoplifters) easier. Can you imagine the police using non-encrypted radios nowadays?
I dont share the frequencies but I have shared short conversations picked up on DMR that are not encrypted for educational purposes on my videos, all of the traffic is in a 50mhz band and it only takes a couple of hours to catalog them, I dont think sharing of the frequencies is the reason that people are encrypting though Lewis I think the problem is poor system administration of the radios that are not enabling the encryption on the radios in the first place thats why some are garbled and others are not, the main purpose for going digital in the first place for many organisations using digital radios or replacing their existing analogue radios is the security that digital radios bring via encryption. I would bet many business have no idea at all that encryption is even switched off, I dont know anyone with a digital scanner apart from you :-) and less people with an SDR who even have the SDR setup for digital so I honestly dont think sharing is making much difference, you are right that people tweeting the actual companies twitter page might invoke a check and a tightening up but general forum chat and indirect twitter posts would likely make little difference, I am amazed that the radios dont come from the manufacturer with encryption switched on by default? Interesting question though and I do agree its better to keep a lot of information to your selves these days, I find it surprising that I can hear anyone to be honest and some of the banter the oppos transmit at times proves to me they think they are on a secure network, look at the bald guy whos just walked in or god he smells etc etc, funny to listen to but probably not something the business owners would be happy with being made public. I think in time all of it will be encrypted not because of sharing but because of better installation practices, training and manufacturers intervention, particularly if there are any incidents that can be linked to eavesdropping on DMR. Super video, your beard is fascinating in HD :-)
Cheers mate! Yeah they don't understand the system, my workplace has a storenet radio and people say all sorts on there. And I agree you'd think they'd do encryption as standard! Cheers!
Any firm wanting total secure dmr could simply have there provider set dmr up for secure coms option then no one can listen in with out the correct access key code..seem some users are not getting good advice from there suppliers...its an easy option to enable..
It is probably illegal under the Data Protection Act to broadcast personal information about third parties over an unencrypted network, so any company doing so should use encryption as a matter of course. If they don't, then bringing it to their attention that they may be breaking the law is surely perfectly legitimate.
Interesting view on this but sharing is sharing.... you share with a friend or whomever, YOU'VE SHARED and broken your own rule/view on this subject.... it's like having a secret, once you've told ONE PERSON it's no longer a secret.... I do agree with you but eventually even your "friend(s)" will pass that frequency on and that person will pass it on etc etc.... how do you think radioreference.com gets all its frequencies for its database? I'm sure a good 25% of them were ones only shared with "friends" .... I'm guarded about the encrypted police frequencies I've received the keys to and such for sure, but by the simple fact they've been shared with me, I know fully that others have them too and somebody will botch it and we'll all have to start from scratch...
I have got an Icom PMR, had it for years, it has the digital frequencies along with analogue ones. I haven't a clue how to use the digital or go about using the digital side of it.
I hear what you're saying but isn't it just a matter of time before all commercial two radio is encrypted. The only thing that's stopping most companies is the cost. As they replace their equipment the will upgrade. If they don't want to their insurance companies may start insisting. Who wants to be sued for having an insecure comms system! I can see a lot of companies going over to network radios the security is built in and very comprehensive. I can see a time when commercial simplex and duplex comms over vhf/ uhf is a thing of the past. It happened to Morse, and how much commercial traffic is heard on HF bands these days.
I would argue that if someone is using an unencrypted radio system for sensitive information they are probably in violation of multiple laws already. They care, and they should, about their liability exposure, not scanner hobbyists. This is the harsh reality of the situation. If you want unencryted, listen to ham repeaters. They are disallowed by law from encrypting their transmissions.
A lot of encrypted & unencrypted things now days are so easy to listen to if you have a very good radio receiver , All he is asking of you is to think be for putting any thing out there in public or they could ban having any type of radio scanner or radio receiver in the end .
@@radiosification You don't hear anything around here, nobody ever uses the damn thing. Every time I go out in the car, I put a call out, nobody ever answers 😢
Interesting subject, in the US most retail is still using analog on business frequencies simplex, other businesses or towns might use DMR. But our police are mostly all going to P25 Digital and some departments are encrypted but the majority can still be listened to on a digital scanner or phone app through broadcastify. At least in the US I don’t think there’s enough interest to really screw with people’s business operations.
I maintain a small business radio system in the southwestern US. We began using AES encryption almost immediately after we shifted over to primarily digital radios.
in the uk, do they have a web site that list the radio frequencies like the FCC in the united States ? if so that could be a problem. or use a close call scanner to pick up the radio frequencies.
Need a scanner that can go thought loads random encryption keys till finds the right key but depends how big the encryption keys are some are 256AES for good ones but some dmr only have 4 letters for encryption basic then there advanced about 16 letters not to clever on this stuff yet but it be similar to wifi encryption
Your scanner will never brute-force an AES key. Don't even waste your energy thinking about it. ADP/RC4, that can be brute-forced with a decent PC and some time.
Wait, so, your solution to prevent encryption so YOU can listen to a radio conversation is to advise others not to seek and share frequency information with others? I started maintaining radio services for a tourist retreat in NJ. We currently use analog with 4 repeaters as well as 10 simplex frequencies. 2 frequencies are digital as we test out a new radio setup. The digital frequencies have an optional encryption setting. When training users on use of the radios, I make it very clear that people are always listening, regardless of encryption. The only issues we have ever had were when users intentionally keyed the repeater as a form of prank, and when NYC taxi companies found they could access our repeater to talk to their drivers when picking up or dropping off customers without getting our ok to do so. Encryption has been free on our system, that is we never had to buy a license for it. We use encryption when dealing with law enforcement (They can contact us direct, however the agreement is that they will be encrypted at all times) mostly, however when we have privacy issues, we will encrypt traffic. Another words, through training of employees, we encrypt the stuff that needs encrypting, and leave the rest available because who cares if they hear it. The reason many businesses and emergency services encrypt their stuff is because they are told its a way to make their communications more secure. Many don't want to deal with "is encryption on or off?" before transmitting sensitive information so instead they full time encrypt simply because they can without added charge. I predict that everything outside of ham, CB, or public access radio will sooner or later be either digitally encrypted, or will migrate to network radio which is un-scanable. Doesn't matter if the frequencies are posted on radio reference, or on facebook, or youtube. If the means are there and there's no added cost, it'll be used.
It's taken a lot of time for people to understand the dmr system and start to listen and now it will be shut down and we won't be able to any more for the average person scaning. I understand your point with it. But anithing in the air is free to listen to. That is my thoughts on this video
I’m not sure what point you’re making mate? It’s technically free to listen to but people don’t want it. And when they realise they can be monitored they don’t like it.
So you would like them to ban having any type of radio scanner or radio receiver , Then you would not be able to listen to any thing in the air , And just so you know when they come to you door if you tell them any thing in the air is free to listen to they will be laughing all the way to the jail when they lock you up. Hahaha .
I am 100% with you on If we all in the hobby stop passing on any info by not putting any thing on a public site , Then this should make the hobby a lot better in the long run .
As a privacy advocate I have to disagree. I think sharing actually *is* the way to go, so people/companies are forced to encrypt. Its nice to have something to play with, but if some kid plays with my data - or even worse, some criminal - and I don't know anything about it - I am definitely not o.k. with that. So punish those people! Publish their frequencies! Make them pay the money they wanted to save! Until they are forced to use strong encryption!
OK I've just been back through your video and your point of not sharing in the public I understand you weren't trying to stop people from shering. Just the shering on public sights so it doesn't shut down. OK I'm sorry I've got it. On that note good video
The information might be open to everyone nowadays but you need to look at the “Wireless and Telegraph act” We’ve all done it years ago, we listened to the police in our local area. But under the WaT act it is illegal to listen or monitor any frequency that you do not have permission from the license holder to do so. That is the bottom line, there are NO if or BUTs. The law is the law.
How by banning all radio scanners & radio receivers ? Don't you know there are lots of us who just love this hobby , Why can't you just stop putting the information out there & keep it to you self .
@@kevinmcdermott3668 Absolutely not. That would be both ridiculous and impossible with the advent of SDR. What I would like to see are these idiots not sharing private personal information on open airwaves. That means training personnel properly or getting the right tools even if it means encryption. The idea of not publishing the information is fine but if they are sharing personal information that can harm people I think we should actively warn them to stop. I'm not worried about things like license plates and names but if it goes too much farther someone should be notified. For example the private medical information that is still being broadcast over pager networks.
OK I've opened a can of worms her I am not a ham no longer I don't transmit lost interest I just listen the point I was trying to make was why can't people listen . I understand the police and fire should not be decode but as for dmr time slots and TG's fiding things like that is the fun of the hobby of scaning. That's is my thoughts
I know what you're saying but nobody says we shouldn't be listening. Nobody's said we shouldn't be finding TG's and slots etc... not sure what you're getting at!
Wow Secret Twoway... Here in the United States we do not use such things like that to keep people from hearing the Transmissions of Businesses and Police or Government. Some Parts of Government have Secured Transmissions on their Motorola Type Handsets and Mobiles. But overall the Two-way communications here in the United States are totally Open for all to hear, that is how the Law and the FCC has it here. But as we see it if you want Private Communications there is the Cell phone and use that to communicate private. But here in the USA, we have too many hackers here who know their shit very WELL and they can crack communications code quite fast. Verizon and AT&T has problems with the Hackers and could not keep up with the Coding of Secret Channels. The Hackers are 12 steps ahead of the Companies who make these things. Some of the Hackers are Chinese, Japanese and Russian. Most of them reside here in the United States.
Maybe you should stop offering an encryption services. It doesn't cost you anything. Maybe you are part of the problem? If you offer to encrypt a service, you are the problem to the rest of us. You and your fellow money makers. Tell the rest of 'em to stop offering the encryption service and we can all go ahead with our scanning. Just saying.
Ant what on earth are you on about? I don't offer encryption services? I don't even work with or in radio? I certainly make no money from radio either. Maybe you should watch and listen to the video properly before coming on talking absolute rubbish. Just saying!
Ant Massey, picture this. A member of your family is missing. The search and rescue team has found them. Seriously injured. The entire town knows the news and it’s all over social media before the police even get chance to sit you down and explain. Because someone posted there frequencies on Facebook/the internet, and they aren’t encrypted. Honestly, everyone is entitled to privacy. Money has no part to play. Lewis even said “it usually doesn’t cost anything, just a reprogramming session on the network. And this is normally not charged for”.
Why do you have a problem with encryption? If I'm paying for a system and I want privacy, I should be able to have privacy
@@RingwayManchester SO in your video. You stated that you work on radios. And you offer services. 3:45. So pay attention to your own video.
And yea. He's kinda right. lol Share away people! fuc em. I have no love for any business but my own. Don't care if it costs them money.
@@SaruEMSEducation No, he really doesn't say he offers radio services, he offers up an example of how a business might provide radio services.
You do make some ineresting points however there is no such thing as "secure" in public mobile radio terms. Someone once said to me many years ago, "You should never say on a radio, any radio, something that you are not prepared to shout across a busy public house." This sentiment has stuck with me ever since. So any company that is using radio, analogue/digital, encypted or not, should operate under the assumption that many people ARE listening, and refrain from transmitting sensitive information over the air. The onus is on them as users, NOT me and you.
Many years ago I maintained a "secret squirrel" radio scheme, when the frequencies it used plus interestingly the name of it (inside info) appeared on a scanning group on the internet it's fate was sealed. Those of us that worked on it always knew it was not secure but being published on the internet made it fair game not just for interception but also possible jamming.
Nice to see you drumming up a bit of debate Lewis!! Unfortunately it's not like the "old days" of analogue where only a select number of Business Radio users could encrypt or scramble their systems and posting frequencies was harmless to a degree. Digital radio has changed all that and certainly changed the scanning hobby. I 100% agree with your views about posting DMR or other digital findings Lewis. Makes perfect sense. Good video, 73, Brian
Cheers Brian, it's definitely drawn up some debate! It seems the UK viewers all agree but it seems lost on the US viewers for some reason!
I agree 100%, If a frequency is found and interesting to listen too, it is not worth it putting the details where it can be seen as it doesn't take much before the user changes the frequency or goes encrypted and then it means another fun thing lost again through someone not taking 5 minutes and thinking. It can take years to find out who is using a certain frequency and to listen you pay out money for the equipment that you listen with only for it to become useless as it no longer is able to receive the user because you have spread the details around and the user has been informed they're being listened too.
Good video Lewis. Completely agree, it's just about not making it too obvious, people have mentioned the WTR on the OFCOM site, but very few companies will see that as risk, but as you say a post of FB from sand random Joe with the companies "private" frequency will always make someone act.
Cheers mate! Yeah it's social media that ruins it, the WTR doesn't give all the paramaters needed to listen so it's less of a problem
Great point lewis, I hope people can learn from your video, I am going to explain there is away round the encryption keys as a cybersecurity analysis, I know how encryption keys work and designed a little peace of software I use on my SDR to gain the encryption key and enter it in my radio and its never taken anymore than 20 seconds to find the key. I know its not illegal to gain or share the encryption but I just don't share outside of a few friends and never on the internet. Thanks Lewis for getting the word out.
It is in the UK. Its illegal to listen to any messages not intended for general broadcast or directed to you.
That said, how someone proves you've been doing so is another matter.
Our police department doesn’t even share but license plate numbers, but they try to share that information by other means. Ems on the other hand now, they tend to share hippa protected information, plus they use p25 phase I/II encryption so analog scanners can’t decide the signals
Thats for sharing Lewis. It makes sense well explained.
Cheers mate
It's not so much the sharing of frequencies, as radio nerds like us wouldn't act upon the information or use it for malicious purposes. It's more people using the information for shady activities, such as some tech savvy chav monitoring shopwatch frequencies so they are one step ahead to steal from retail outlets. Not forgetting in a post 9/11 world, nowadays we are more paranoid about terrorists acts in major cities. I've heard it all from back in the day, when the emergency services were plastered all over the VHF/UHF spectrum in a mixture of AM and NFM - but none of it was discussed.
The companies dealing with selling DMR radio solutions to customers need to be completely transparent as to how secure the networks are and the information that is broadcast upon them; in other words, in an environment where the information is confidential then they should suggest encryption rather than simply taking the customer's money and running with it and giving them clear DMR.
With OTA programming, reprogramming radios is easier than ever, so encryption can be switched on pretty much instantly.
Anyone with an rtl-sdr, and SDR#, can use the DSD Plus plugin to "scan" the entire VHF/UHF spectrum for any and all people using digital radios, as well as analog. You can't expect privacy if you're not encrypting your communications. You also shouldn't be using 5 watt radios that can be picked up 4, 8, 12 miles away on a md-380 or baofeng. Maybe I don't understand the point here, but if I ran a large box store, or warehouse, whatever... I would invest my money into lots of wired access points for total WiFi coverage across the site, (most already have this step done) and then buy IP radios. Now no one can hear anything, and my IT guy can deal with managing it all. Plus you can now use those radios across multiple sites, or your house if you want. It's all encrypted, and no scanner is going to pick any of it up.
I feel like real-time streaming of public safety comms is what’s killing the hobby (looking at you RadioReference/Broadcastify). Agencies are pointing to teens using phones to know the cops are coming, and they are refusing to add a delay to the feed. They are literally driving this hobby and their own source of income to extinction.
I've also noticed recently some businesses I occasionally listen to have switched to DMR in the last 3 months. Some of them probably should have moved from analogue years ago, but others I wouldn't have expected so much. Lewis, I also live in your listening area of the world.
Funny thing here police are unencrypted p25 trunked and I'm listening on my sdr setup right now, but radios at my work are encrypted nxdn.
Similar here. The sheriff's department is unencrypted analog, state DPS is unencrypted P25 trunked (I've got an EFJ Ascend ES doing output scan to listen to them), and the business radio system I run is P25 using AES.
A very good point. There also could be issues with public sharing of analogue shop watch etc frequencies.
Hey Lewis,
that's one very interesting topic, thanks for the video. One question that came to me while watching was that, with the general data protection regulation, shouldn't encryption on the airwaves be mandatory once personal data like license plates is transmitted? Listening to DMR now requires a 10€ USB-Receiver and some freely downloadable software, business frequency ranges are also public. When finding and receiving radio traffic is that easy, I would assume that you are required to implement encryption, since you are well aware of the risk according to the GDPR. This might be an interesting question to ask your lawyer, especially when you're the one installing the radio system. I'm super curious for the answer to this question.
Keep up your great videos! :)
Was in a similar situation in early 90's. There was no or very limited access to the Internet at that time, while FIDO-net was quite popular. An intercity telephone switch had some "secret" codes. For example, dialing a code followed by a local telephone number allowed to make the ringer ring like a long-distance call, despite it was made within the town. I happened to share this code in a local Fido-net echo-conference, and after not much awhile they just disabled or changed all those codes. So, share behind the closed doors.
More public Details -> Good arguments for me as admin spending money in encrypted systems. It's that easy.
Dear Ringway Manchester (M3HHY) your RUclips videos are quite popular here in the States, so are another British chap who calls himself Knoxieman. You both hail from across the pond. Knoxieman (G7LNK) is a bloke down in Oxfordshire and you are in Manchester. According to Siri, your locations are about 150 apart. That’s a stretch for amateur repeaters but since you both post absolutely wonderful radio testing it would be great if you did something cooperatively. Thanks for all of the work you guys put in testing radios for the masses.
Thanks very much! We can’t make contact through repeaters but we are planning a meet up after the pandemic subsided. Me and Paul are really good friends! I’ll pass it on.
There are two problems here.
1. The hobby of radio scanning reaching obsolescence.
A fair comment watching your video, it's completely understandable wanting to defend the hobby.
But the second issue...
Businesses sharing sensitive information in the clear and not realising it until they find their information on social media.
I would not make excuses for my bank failing to secure my data in transit, so why are we excusing other businesses from doing so?
I personally think we should actively engage with businesses to discuss and demonstrate the information they leak to the public and actively encourage use of encrypted communications for commercial and sensitive data. As you say they are mere users of radio services, they may not necessarily be aware of the security implications.
I think the cost posed to the hobby whilst possibly heavy, is a necessary one to bear due to the impact leaked information can have to a service.
Serious users are now shifting to either POC (UK hosted server) or full 256bit encrypted DMR.. most are doing so either complying with company processes around GDPR or have mission critical needs eg medical, that may as you mentioned carry info that has to be shared quickly but may also be considered personal or sensitive. There are also a lot of DECT devices emerging in retail, like ( www.vocovo.com) days of scanning are numbered, I'm not sure its a bad thing really. I went to Birmingham Christmas market yesterday and saw the giant barriers at either end, seems daft the local shopwatch or market officials could have open radio coms when you see expenditure on such "in your face" crowd protection from physical attacks. After all an advanced encryption licence on a batch of handsets is cheap and takes less than a second to enable.. Any closed group radio I set up in my day job I enable the fullest encryption possible by default in accordance with the issued licence, occasionally we have to add an existing handset to the group but that's easy to do.. sign of the times really...
Over here in the states, I hear names, DOB, addresses and social security numbers in the clear over analog. If you don't carry an ID, this is the way local law enforcement verifies your identity.
Lucky that it is not legal over here for companys to use encryption. Only coverment can use it.
Keep the information to yourself. This could be the last decade we can still listen,before tech gets so advanced that we are locked out completely. Be discrete and sensible. Good topic Lewis.
Cheers mate
Ŕf is still around
Any one can look up information on radio licenses, frequencies, locations, and modes. It's public information... There's nothing secret about the frequencies. If the user is worried about being secure they can enable encryption. If you divulge what you hear that's another story.
But the public listings don't give all the paramaters required to actually listen to a digital frequency. CC, slot, tg's and freq are needed, and they don't provide all of that.
There is only so much information you can see on those sites , The rest is passed on in the hobby so please stop doing this .
My citie's taxi company frequency is on radioreference, with PL codes and everything... not even DMR, but analog VHF.
Ant Massey's about as intelligent as a house fly and as observant as a blind bat
Luckily where I’m at at least now most things are unencrypted and analog. Just recently the interoperability network upgraded to a digital p25 system.
Something Ive never really thought about. Not that I can listen to them any more as I dont have a digital scanner.
On my DMR radio a long press of a button and its encrypted. dead easy to implement.
If forums allow such information to be posted, Im not talking Facebook, but private radio forums, then they should not allow Google bots onto their forum as once google has crawled through posts they are then public for a google query to find.
Yes if do that sort thing keep to your self.
SDR radio and a sniffing app reveals all frequency and channel settings info now a days ... Dont even need to ask anymore its open to the public now a days XD
Well said mate absolutely spot on there
I entirely agree its bad for the hobby as well as for the business concerned. unfortunately a lot of frequencies are shared in public on Facebook radio groups, and whether they happen to be private groups or not makes no difference because anybody can request to join! so those members could be absolutely anyone! either from the company or even Ofcom. this is why digital frequencies should never be shared in the public domain online. infact if anyone attempts to share them on a group the Admin should remove the content and warn them that if they persist they will be banned from the group.
Well done Lewis ,the video explains it to the t but still sadly there's to many wannabe bragger's who don't think before posting etc
Cheers mate
sadly all the info about a companys dmr freq are in the public domain including info like licence renewal dates, freq and licence holders etc via offcoms website ..... i understand the point being made but unfortunatley the info is available and free to obtain.
Cheers Stephen but it's worth noting that not all parameters needed to listen to DMR frequencies are in the database
@@RingwayManchester No but all you need is DSD and you will get it all .
While is might be on offcoms website it's not combed by search engines etc which companies may use to see what's being said about them. Also think the they have taken it down too.
Good point!
I'm amazed that some business near me are using out the box PMR analogue
there is a care home near me that uses PMR analogue and you hear them all the time . sometimes there will be patients names mentioned but other staff will tell them not to use the persons name .
If people & company's don't give out sensitive info over a radio and treat them like they can be heard by everyone no matter what. Then they would not have anything to worry about in the first place.
Apparently you've never heard of radioreference.com lol
MrCorynick clearly not lol
Exactly what I was thinking when I was watching this. Haha
@@rmetcalf89 He's on about the UK. I know America thinks its the centre of the Universe, but its not.
@@GrahamTruman Nah never said that. But thanks for your ignorant comment
Usually this situation feeds the need for lucrative technology upgrades by government agencies and corporations, some times they don't even work like Open Sky Radio Systems.
could end up like usa banning wide band radios
I said the same thing in a frequency group and got nothing but abuse and hounded until I left.
Cause a lot of people don’t like to do the hard work themselves mate
In Italy in my area there's the same problem in the last year
DMR is very Easy to Listen to, even encrypted repeaters because radios are all available the cheap Chinese ones have encryption,
Another great video Lewis, as I am on way to get licensed, start my online training with Essex ham training, I have one question and would like to ask you as thanks your videos I decided to do license, my question is during training i should do some radio contact in practice, I am struggling to get in touch with Preston club, so how I can do this without a call sign or I should not
Hi mate, no you shouldn't because you're not licensed. They'll practice with you when you go in for your training and test
@@RingwayManchester one problem at present is that with lockdown and the suspension of practical assessments there are people whose first opportunity to key up is when their callsign pops through their letterbox / into their inbox from Ofcom.
i'm scratching that itch as well at the minute and it doesn't really bother me having used 'real' PMR and emergency services stuff in the past
I try to stay on top of emerging technologies for my business radios. We use encrypted DMR right now mainly, but we use Zello as well, and are considering moving to that as primary (private Zello channels as well as ALL of Zello Work are encrypted.)
If I really need to be discrete I have a set of Sainsonic FM416's (that Lewis made me buy), guarantee that not many people in the US are going to be able to eavesdrop on encrypted dPMR. 😉
Hi Lewis. I was under the impression encrypting was illegal. 73 de M6VMO.
Not illegal at all. You just have to be licensed for it.
I thought so too, but who'd catch ya?
I've being saying this for year's, yes the info is out there on ofcoms website, methods of getting TG CC slot etc are all over youtube, if your clever enough to program a radio up, your clever enough to get your own info. and please click the RX only box, don't spoil it for the rest of us
Very well explained as i have thought in the hobby to listen to some radio freqs my self but i can see what you mean if you find some thing good to listen to keep it to a select few
I think that happened to a local junkiewatch aka shopwatch scheme near me. It used to be in the clear, then just went encrypted I believe.
Also, some devious individuals can programme their DMR handies to cause deliberate QRM to these commercial users.
Interesting subject. I didn't realise this was an issue. I guess the lesson would be to always have the commercial radios encrypted from the start?
I guess as Radio Amateurs, there is an expectation of trust and a sense of responsibility expected from us but clearly, as you say, there could well be very sensitive information being transmitted by the commercial users, and those with less than innocent intent , could be a real problem.
Thanks for the video, 73 :-)
Cheers mate
If you do not want the general public listening to your comms, then surely they should be encrypted in the first place. e.g. shop security - you don't want a professional shop lifting gang listening in on you,it will just make their job (the shoplifters) easier.
Can you imagine the police using non-encrypted radios nowadays?
I dont share the frequencies but I have shared short conversations picked up on DMR that are not encrypted for educational purposes on my videos, all of the traffic is in a 50mhz band and it only takes a couple of hours to catalog them, I dont think sharing of the frequencies is the reason that people are encrypting though Lewis I think the problem is poor system administration of the radios that are not enabling the encryption on the radios in the first place thats why some are garbled and others are not, the main purpose for going digital in the first place for many organisations using digital radios or replacing their existing analogue radios is the security that digital radios bring via encryption.
I would bet many business have no idea at all that encryption is even switched off, I dont know anyone with a digital scanner apart from you :-) and less people with an SDR who even have the SDR setup for digital so I honestly dont think sharing is making much difference, you are right that people tweeting the actual companies twitter page might invoke a check and a tightening up but general forum chat and indirect twitter posts would likely make little difference, I am amazed that the radios dont come from the manufacturer with encryption switched on by default?
Interesting question though and I do agree its better to keep a lot of information to your selves these days, I find it surprising that I can hear anyone to be honest and some of the banter the oppos transmit at times proves to me they think they are on a secure network, look at the bald guy whos just walked in or god he smells etc etc, funny to listen to but probably not something the business owners would be happy with being made public.
I think in time all of it will be encrypted not because of sharing but because of better installation practices, training and manufacturers intervention, particularly if there are any incidents that can be linked to eavesdropping on DMR.
Super video, your beard is fascinating in HD :-)
Cheers mate! Yeah they don't understand the system, my workplace has a storenet radio and people say all sorts on there. And I agree you'd think they'd do encryption as standard! Cheers!
So, is the hobby doomed?.....
Until the mother of all decoders is publicly available?.....
And There Are No More Secrets Left?
Any firm wanting total secure dmr could simply have there provider set dmr up for secure coms option then no one can listen in with out the correct access key code..seem some users are not getting good advice from there suppliers...its an easy option to enable..
It is probably illegal under the Data Protection Act to broadcast personal information about third parties over an unencrypted network, so any company doing so should use encryption as a matter of course. If they don't, then bringing it to their attention that they may be breaking the law is surely perfectly legitimate.
Hipaa violation.
@@SteelWolf13 Doesn't apply to the UK where Lewis is.
@@HakanKoseoglu they have similar laws. Different name.
Yes!! I totally agree with this.
Cheers Harry!
I totally agree with you Lewis!
Interesting view on this but sharing is sharing.... you share with a friend or whomever, YOU'VE SHARED and broken your own rule/view on this subject.... it's like having a secret, once you've told ONE PERSON it's no longer a secret.... I do agree with you but eventually even your "friend(s)" will pass that frequency on and that person will pass it on etc etc.... how do you think radioreference.com gets all its frequencies for its database? I'm sure a good 25% of them were ones only shared with "friends" .... I'm guarded about the encrypted police frequencies I've received the keys to and such for sure, but by the simple fact they've been shared with me, I know fully that others have them too and somebody will botch it and we'll all have to start from scratch...
I have got an Icom PMR, had it for years, it has the digital frequencies along with analogue ones. I haven't a clue how to use the digital or go about using the digital side of it.
they could also use
analog voice descrambler, and code and signal use to help with it.
I hear what you're saying but isn't it just a matter of time before all commercial two radio is encrypted. The only thing that's stopping most companies is the cost. As they replace their equipment the will upgrade. If they don't want to their insurance companies may start insisting. Who wants to be sued for having an insecure comms system!
I can see a lot of companies going over to network radios the security is built in and very comprehensive. I can see a time when commercial simplex and duplex comms over vhf/ uhf is a thing of the past. It happened to Morse, and how much commercial traffic is heard on HF bands these days.
That's why we have little left to listen to.
what a great video lewis, its a shames as a small few ruin it for everyone, 73's mate all the best
I would argue that if someone is using an unencrypted radio system for sensitive information they are probably in violation of multiple laws already. They care, and they should, about their liability exposure, not scanner hobbyists. This is the harsh reality of the situation.
If you want unencryted, listen to ham repeaters. They are disallowed by law from encrypting their transmissions.
Listening to ham repeaters in unbelievably boring most of the time. All you hear about is Joe's latest trip to the doctor.
A lot of encrypted & unencrypted things now days are so easy to listen to if you have a very good radio receiver , All he is asking of you is to think be for putting any thing out there in public or they could ban having any type of radio scanner or radio receiver in the end .
@@radiosification You don't hear anything around here, nobody ever uses the damn thing. Every time I go out in the car, I put a call out, nobody ever answers 😢
All always should be encrypted...period
Interesting subject, in the US most retail is still using analog on business frequencies simplex, other businesses or towns might use DMR. But our police are mostly all going to P25 Digital and some departments are encrypted but the majority can still be listened to on a digital scanner or phone app through broadcastify. At least in the US I don’t think there’s enough interest to really screw with people’s business operations.
Wrong, most businesses are now using some form of digital radios, major stores like Walmart , costco have generally gone digital.
I thought encryption was illegal because it can't be monitored
It is on amateur radio. Business radio can have different rules.
Why don't they want to be listened too.. are they up to something dodgy
Spot on
I maintain a small business radio system in the southwestern US. We began using AES encryption almost immediately after we shifted over to primarily digital radios.
another sensible video well done
cheers john!
in the uk, do they have a web site that list the radio frequencies like the FCC in the united States ? if so that could be a problem. or use a close call scanner to pick up the radio frequencies.
Yes. It's available on the Ofcom website.
yes but it doesn't list all the relevant parameters needed to listen in
Need a scanner that can go thought loads random encryption keys till finds the right key but depends how big the encryption keys are some are 256AES for good ones but some dmr only have 4 letters for encryption basic then there advanced about 16 letters not to clever on this stuff yet but it be similar to wifi encryption
Your scanner will never brute-force an AES key. Don't even waste your energy thinking about it. ADP/RC4, that can be brute-forced with a decent PC and some time.
Please another urban test... Respect from Indonesia.
Wait, so, your solution to prevent encryption so YOU can listen to a radio conversation is to advise others not to seek and share frequency information with others?
I started maintaining radio services for a tourist retreat in NJ. We currently use analog with 4 repeaters as well as 10 simplex frequencies. 2 frequencies are digital as we test out a new radio setup. The digital frequencies have an optional encryption setting. When training users on use of the radios, I make it very clear that people are always listening, regardless of encryption. The only issues we have ever had were when users intentionally keyed the repeater as a form of prank, and when NYC taxi companies found they could access our repeater to talk to their drivers when picking up or dropping off customers without getting our ok to do so.
Encryption has been free on our system, that is we never had to buy a license for it. We use encryption when dealing with law enforcement (They can contact us direct, however the agreement is that they will be encrypted at all times) mostly, however when we have privacy issues, we will encrypt traffic. Another words, through training of employees, we encrypt the stuff that needs encrypting, and leave the rest available because who cares if they hear it.
The reason many businesses and emergency services encrypt their stuff is because they are told its a way to make their communications more secure. Many don't want to deal with "is encryption on or off?" before transmitting sensitive information so instead they full time encrypt simply because they can without added charge. I predict that everything outside of ham, CB, or public access radio will sooner or later be either digitally encrypted, or will migrate to network radio which is un-scanable. Doesn't matter if the frequencies are posted on radio reference, or on facebook, or youtube. If the means are there and there's no added cost, it'll be used.
It's taken a lot of time for people to understand the dmr system and start to listen and now it will be shut down and we won't be able to any more for the average person scaning. I understand your point with it. But anithing in the air is free to listen to. That is my thoughts on this video
I’m not sure what point you’re making mate? It’s technically free to listen to but people don’t want it. And when they realise they can be monitored they don’t like it.
So you would like them to ban having any type of radio scanner or radio receiver , Then you would not be able to listen to any thing in the air , And just so you know when they come to you door if you tell them any thing in the air is free to listen to they will be laughing all the way to the jail when they lock you up. Hahaha .
@@RingwayManchester people have been listening to all sorts over the air for years and there is no problem to listening
@@kevinmcdermott3668 lol
I am 100% with you on If we all in the hobby stop passing on any info by not putting any thing on a public site , Then this should make the hobby a lot better in the long run .
Firsted. We never share digital frequencies in the D.P.R.K ! Because we have too many and our radios are far superior !
As a privacy advocate I have to disagree. I think sharing actually *is* the way to go, so people/companies are forced to encrypt.
Its nice to have something to play with, but if some kid plays with my data - or even worse, some criminal - and I don't know anything about it - I am definitely not o.k. with that.
So punish those people! Publish their frequencies! Make them pay the money they wanted to save!
Until they are forced to use strong encryption!
OK I've just been back through your video and your point of not sharing in the public I understand you weren't trying to stop people from shering. Just the shering on public sights so it doesn't shut down. OK I'm sorry I've got it. On that note good video
Ok Cheers
Well said! G1DRP
i agree
If you share these freqs Elon Musk will cancel you.
The information might be open to everyone nowadays but you need to look at the “Wireless and Telegraph act”
We’ve all done it years ago, we listened to the police in our local area.
But under the WaT act it is illegal to listen or monitor any frequency that you do not have permission from the license holder to do so.
That is the bottom line, there are NO if or BUTs.
The law is the law.
If they are sharing personal information wouldn't it be better for the public good if they fixed it?
I would but what will we listen to? lol
How by banning all radio scanners & radio receivers ? Don't you know there are lots of us who just love this hobby , Why can't you just stop putting the information out there & keep it to you self .
@@kevinmcdermott3668 Absolutely not. That would be both ridiculous and impossible with the advent of SDR. What I would like to see are these idiots not sharing private personal information on open airwaves. That means training personnel properly or getting the right tools even if it means encryption. The idea of not publishing the information is fine but if they are sharing personal information that can harm people I think we should actively warn them to stop. I'm not worried about things like license plates and names but if it goes too much farther someone should be notified. For example the private medical information that is still being broadcast over pager networks.
OK I've opened a can of worms her I am not a ham no longer I don't transmit lost interest I just listen the point I was trying to make was why can't people listen . I understand the police and fire should not be decode but as for dmr time slots and TG's fiding things like that is the fun of the hobby of scaning. That's is my thoughts
I know what you're saying but nobody says we shouldn't be listening. Nobody's said we shouldn't be finding TG's and slots etc... not sure what you're getting at!
good topic, thanks my friend,, from n3ndx..
Yes bud🤣🤣🤣🤣🙄
lewis can u pass me some dmr freq :P lol
Wow Secret Twoway... Here in the United States we do not use such things like that to keep people from hearing the Transmissions of Businesses and Police or Government. Some Parts of Government have Secured Transmissions on their Motorola Type Handsets and Mobiles. But overall the Two-way communications here in the United States are totally Open for all to hear, that is how the Law and the FCC has it here. But as we see it if you want Private Communications there is the Cell phone and use that to communicate private. But here in the USA, we have too many hackers here who know their shit very WELL and they can crack communications code quite fast. Verizon and AT&T has problems with the Hackers and could not keep up with the Coding of Secret Channels. The Hackers are 12 steps ahead of the Companies who make these things. Some of the Hackers are Chinese, Japanese and Russian. Most of them reside here in the United States.