Fascinating Evolution of FromSoftware's Combat - a Gaming Analysis, Part 1
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- Опубликовано: 13 июн 2024
- I'm exploring a new series in which I analyze how #fromsoftware combat has evolved over time. Today, I'm comparing two bosses from #darksouls3 and #eldenring to excavate the growing sophistication of player positioning.
#gaming #darksouls #gaminganalysis
![Dark Souls, but every enemy is MANUS - [Part 1]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/jFiTcbxlGio/mqdefault.jpg)
CORRECTION: When I discuss Godrick's multi-hit axe combo, I think I mess up the number of swings, but the main point is that you need to react differently to it depending on where you are relative to his body. Sorry for the error!
I think something you could have touched on here is that this attack is a great example of how delays in the bosses kit are not always just there to fuck with your timing also. For example, with this attack I ALWAYS move away, space the first 3 swings, roll into the fourth and strafe the last. This is much more efficient in stamina usage than rolling the entire thing and results in a larger opening when it's done that you are guaranteed to have enough stamina so take advantage of due to only timing once and strafing the last attack. You can consistently employ this strategy from any position BECAUSE the first attack is highly telegraphed and delayed.
Basically this is just one example among many but one thing I REALLY appreciate about ER is how you can always match the pace of your enemy so long as your managing stamina properly (not spam rolling). Other examples being delays serving as attack openings. Godrick is a great example of this as well as you can very often attack him during his combos.
Anyway I really appreciate your take here overall and highly agree. I think these kinds of attacks are excellent additions.
I know you’re a smaller youtuber but I’m glad there are people like you who make these kinds of videos. It sometimes saddens me to see elden ring boss design be dismissed as bad and overturned when there is a lot more depth in its bosses (even tho I have issues with a few bosses myself). Really good video 👍
Something I think would be cool for you to talk about is how Elden Ring booses give a larger amount of of large openings compared to DS3, presumably to encourage engaging with the stance break system via Charged atttacks.
There are other ways this has occurred in more subtle ways. For instance, dancer’s sword drags, her super combos, manus’s roar combo, amygdala’s jump attack leading into a charged hit on the head, and all the ds1 bosses’ aoe explosions.
Positioning also makes the fights way more dynamic, especially when combined with timing. I want more bosses to have effects that overlap their movesets, as Malenia, Mohg and Morgott all have. Most bosses, even in ER, can be broken down into specific answers for every attack, and frankly, I think thats boring.
Phase 2 Morgott is IMO the best fight in the series and he embodies this to a tee. He has the Sword Rain and the Curse explosion, both of which are simple to avoid, but when trying to dodge Morgotts base attacks at the same time, you can be forced into scenarios where you can't dodge his basic attacks how you normally want to, because his AoEs are blocking you. You have to visualize all 3 threats at once, where they are, and their timings, and figure out where you are going to dodge, and where you will place your i-frames to avoid them, all while trying to position yourself to attack afterwards. It is fucking thrilling, and I've fought Morgott 1000s of times at this point and not once have I felt like there was a scenario where I couldn't avoid damage. Even more simpler scenarios where you are forced into a corner and have to realise that based on your proximity to the boss, you need to dodge an attack slightly earlier or later to avoid said attack.
Found this super interesting thanks for making it!
Would love to see this more fleshed out with more bosses to compare with.
Your observation about that second swing being undodgeable at mid-range reminds me of I think it was the fireball attack by Demon of Hatred. As I tried and retried, I remember observing that at a certain range, the attack was undodgeable - the blast radius was simply too large to get out of in any direction, and the solution was to not allow that situation to occur at all; don't be in that range at any time when he is liable to start up that attack. This imo is not something new, it is a return to form to the ethos of Demon's and Dark Souls 1. Boss fights in those games hinged heavily on situational awareness and disciplined patterns of execution. If you got yourself backed into a corner, it may well be there's nothing you can do but hope the boss chooses not to finish you. This message was especially clear in the O&S fight where the position of the player in the room in combination with that of both enemies could sometimes mean after a hit, you can put your controller down, as the stun chain death spiral is inescapable.
I think in BB and DS3 they moved drastically away from this ethos, removing limitations with an mentality more like, "You can do anything and always turn around a battle at any time if your reflexes are good enough!" I personally find that to be an inferior ethos, and was elated that Sekiro and Elden Ring started a process of phasing back in elements of the older combat design, even if intermixed with the new. Bosses in Elden Ring have more of that trollish, obnoxious, rule-breaking quality to them that bosses from the traditional souls games had, which forces players to engage in some level of problem-solving to overcome them, rather than just reflex training. It's for this reason that I think Elden Ring bosses at large are superior to DS3 bosses at large, full stop.
i mostly love to watch boss analysis as studying to learn more about boss design for my hobby as a gamedev , and i like how some of your videos seem to be talking directly to other developers , thanks man
I'm so glad that you've been enjoying my videos, and I really appreciate your continued words of encouragement!!!!
exaclty my tought when i wrote my comment on your abyss watcher's video, thanks for the video !!!
Artorias has a move where, if you get behind him, he will do a quick turn and throw goop on you. That seems like the first hint of the evolution, where From realized that there's something more fun than chopping backsides. They want you to actually see the boss moveset they worked so hard on, engaging with it instead of avoiding it. And this is probably why the tail-cut mechanic went away, too.
My favorite example is O'Rin of the Water, where your position doesn't matter because she will just zoom over anyway. So you can focus on the rhythm of the swords... or you can run away and get hit and complain about how she doesn't let you heal.
Such a good observation!
Love the content. Gained a sub
Thank you!
something interesting to me is incorporation of jumping into boss fights within Elden ring and the influence sekiro had on that.
not just jumping either, the overall complexity and having several different ways in dealing with attacks especially depending on your weapons and spells
yeah when elden ring released. everyone was complaining about Margit. but i beat him like 2nd try and i was stuck on godrick for like 2 days
6:40 if you time your JoJ
(iykyk)
Godrick has my favorite ost in Elden Ring as for the base game. Idk what that will be for Shadow ov the Erdtree
Great curswood is overhated
Video suggestion: Role of i frame in soulsborne games
Great suggestion!
Interesting vid. Seeing your gameplay of both Sulyvahn and Godrick shows how limited Souls combat can be. Sulyvahn especially since the most of the interactions you have with him are lots of rolling, and quick poke attacks. I’ve been playing these games since Demon’s Souls and I can safely say I’m tired of rolling as a defensive interactive measure against attacks.
Sekiro nailed it with its combat system allowing your primary defensive action to essentially also damage your opponent. Plus it looks and feels way better than just rolling around and strafing while waiting for a poke opportunity. It kinda disappointed me that all From took from Sekiro was jumping attacks. Imagine being able to deflect the flurries that basically every boss in Elden Ring is fond of.
There’s still room for AoE attacks too, though I think From should be cutting back on those. I just fought Mohg in NG2 amd his flame puddles burn and bleed way too much for how long and often he sprays them.
Sorry for the long comment, it’s just that these kind of Souls combat videos really get to me, especially since many people consider Elden Ring to be Fromsoft’s masterpiece whereas I think it was kind of a step back in regards to combat. Again, good vid and i’ll be watching the rest too.
Thanks for the kind words! I can definitely appreciate why ppl don't love the emphasis on rolling. And I *love* Sekiro's deflection system. For me, I love rolling. I-frames are a cool concept, and rolling is just plain fun for me, but it's completely a personal preference and very valid for others not to share it :) Down the line, I'll be making a video about Mogh. He's a god-tier boss IMO, and there actually is a safe way to completely evade his AoE blood flame attacks while continuing to engage with him offensively. Took me a while to learn, but it made the fight so epic. Thanks for watching!
@@jermergerg I look forward to seeing that Mohg video. I can’t believe how badly he was kicking my butt the second time through lol.
The major problem which people had with DSR combat was that it was too slow and From Software it seems realized that too. The next big problem was the jumping mechanic and From Soft decided to turn this into a huge opportunity to make the combat even more interesting and intense and evolution is the right word to describe it. I still wished they had put more thought into Bloodborne style side stepping and incorporated it into Elden Ring or may be in some other game they work on next otherwise I am completely fine with dodging since it is a trademark of souls game combat now. The stress on jumping is also visible due to the fact that jumping attack cause a huge chunk of damage to enemies posture. And also there are attacks that are much easier to jump to avoid those.
Excellent observations! Agree with a lot of this. My personal preference, however, is for dodging rather than side-stepping. I find the side-stepping mechanic to be a bit awkward and dissatisfying, but honestly I think that's probably because I didn't play the games in order--Bloodborne was the last FS game I played, so I was really "raised" on dodging. I can see why you'd prefer it, though!
@@jermergerg Bloodborne is also the last FS I have played. In fact I finished it one time like a month ago and before that I used to hate the side stepping mechanics but for the kind of combat in From Soft game side stepping appears tl make more sense to me but that doesn't mean I don't like the dodge. The dodge animation to me should be much slower and recovery should have been a lot slower like the DSR or DS2. And the way fighting is in DS3 and ER dodging seems a little awkward considering you can even wear armor and have this ultra fast recovery which just feels a little strange. Nothing against it though.
Great video.
I started the series at Demon's Souls back in 2009.
The series has devolved into roll dodge simulator in my opinion. It's no longer as clever and feels more like a traditional action game which is not a compliment but it throws the widest net that captures the widest appeal.
Also, a common thing I see in Souls combat discussion is the disdain for AOEs that cause the player to turn tail and run. Still don't get the dislike. Without it, roll dodge simulator combat becomes even more one note. It sells bosses as being an entity entirely more powerful than you with attacks that must be feared and not negotiated.
Need to listen again, but can't recall if you discussed delayed attacks to counter the roll dodge simulator combat they've created. Almost like they sat back and watched their own gameplay and thought: damn. This looks silly.
Their counter to the “dodge roll simulator” is giving us actions that are *better* than dodge. We can parry bosses, we can break their limbs or their poise, we can guard counter, we can jump counter… each of these works too well to be a minor side mechanic.
For example, Morgott’s rain-of-swords move: its long charge beforehand gives so much time to kill or stagger him, that learning a sequence of dodges becomes a backup plan. But if you focus on dodging first, you think oh my gosh, the delays, the complexity, the damage.
Thanks for the kind words! TBH I just think dodging is a lot of fun, so it doesn't bother me, but I do agree that dodging is a pretty core mechanic to these games. For people who dislike dodging, I think parrying, guard countering, jumping, and strafing are good options they've incorporated over the years. As for AOE's, sort of how I mentioned in this video, I'm down for boss attacks that cause disengagement, but I typically don't like it when that takes the form of me just standing around or being unable to attack for a prolonged period. If the boss does an AOE but then immediately comes to you, I'm cool with that, because it keeps the tempo going, which is what I look for in a good boss fight.
@@jermergerg you're doing great work. Lots of bosses in all manner of games worthy of study. Looking forward to more!
I think DS3 is unfairly lambasted for being "turn based" because plenty of us have been using positioning for a long time. Elden Ring just makes it all but mandatory. In a way I kinda prefer DS3 because it made bosses much more manageable for new players but also had just as high a skill ceiling of mastery for anyone who does more than one playthrough. Elden Ring bosses absolutely are harder and ask a lot more of the player. Myself for example I found the endgame bosses tedious my first playthrough but enjoyed them a lot more on my second. Tedious, I think, because you have to know their movesets on a level that you never had to in DS3 or before. In DS3 you could just kinda act and react and can almost brute force some bosses without understanding every nuance of their moveset.
I think it also suffers some from poorly communicating to players how to approach bosses [with positioning]. I think this is pretty apparent due to the backlash. I think there's 100% a burden on the player to "figure it out" but there's also a burden on the devs to communicate to the player what they need to do. Which is weird because From has historically been stellar at this like how they teach the plunging attack in DS1. I think one reason is only a handful of bosses kinda follow the ER boss design philosophy. The rest are basically DS3 bosses. And so players get through most of the game and then suddenly its like "surprise the strategy you've used the whole game up to this point doesnt work anymore".
Anyways interesting video! I see this is only a first entry so I'll be interested to see what else you cook up. I have some opinions about ER so thisll be fun lol
I agree with so much of what you've said here! I didn't mean to imply that there's no positioning in DS3, just some new developments with it in Elden Ring. I will say that doing DS3 and Elden Ring bosses without damage--as I'm attempting to do for my channel currently--has reallyyyyyy made me learn the subtleties of all these bosses, making me appreciate them more collectively, but also putting their differences under a sharper lens. It's been very interesting.
I love elden ring bosses a good deal more than ds3 bosses however I do agree a lot with what you said. I think a lot of veterans were quick to dismiss elden ring bosses and many didn’t learn them however I can’t really say that Fromsoftware did the best job at communicating how to fight the bosses either. That being said, once I did figure them out, many of them have become my personal favorites in the series (tho none have reached isshin as of yet)
@@epsilon1372 Agree with lots here. In my opinion, so much of the divide comes down to whether or not learning move sets is your thing. I find that I can get enjoyment out of either tbh. Like, I would fight the Twin Princes a billion times without complaint; sure, they're not that hard, but the rhythm and aesthetics are absolutely dope. At the same time, I think Radagon is an absolutely god-tier fight once you put in the work to learn him.
@@epsilon1372 I think the worst offender is the jump 😂. I swear to god I did 3 WHOLE FUCKING PLAYTHROUGHS and didnt know your lower half has s when you jump.
@@austin0_bandit05 lmao but at this point fromsoft being like "fuck you, figure it out" is basically their trademark hahaha