Debra Soh is such an interesting person. She is just ridiculously reasonable in her approach to these discussions, she isn't prone to emotional outbursts, she isn't calling people out, she is just very calmly pointing out facts. It's ridiculous that she would have to actually constantly point out that what she is saying doesn't put her at odds with the trans community, and I'm sure most of them agree. But like any group of activists, they actively seek enemies as if it's going to make them stronger.
@demigodzilla Haha, I did use it twice in one comment, it's true. Ridiculous is one of my probably top 5 favorite adjectives. There are a couple of things that I say in which my wife points out that I use the work or phrase a lot. Absurd is another one of my favorites. Sometimes though, to mix it up, I refer to ridiculous things as "clown shoes". "It's clown shoes that she would have to actually constantly...."
@B. Enceladus Resurrecting dead threads is an interesting pastime. So now in order to ingest facts I must first be an expert on those facts? That is incredibly circular reasoning. I can't corroborate her facts, but her detractors are not using any facts at all. If you ask me to pick between the people sighting facts and the people just throwing ad hominen attacks at everyone, I know who I will choose to side with.
I personally can testify to what Debra says. When I was kid, I felt I was a girl. I used to dress up, act like girls around me etc... my parents were OK with that and let me. But as I grew up, when I think i was 11, i started to like boys romantically. long story short, i came out as gay when i was around 14, 15. and during this time gradually i became more and more comfortable with being male. after that i identify fully as male and i am quite happy with my biological sex and gender identity.
@demigodzilla Well, if he's telling the truth, it shows kids can grow out of a "transgender phase". In which case... Maybe we should chill a little? Let them grow up and make their decision as adults? By the way, I don't really understand what kind of "self-acceptance" it is that requires you to pretty radically alter your body. I live with the fact I am not Leonardo DiCaprio, I'm not going to have surgery to try and change that...
Genetic Flotsam 1.) You don’t experience dysphoria associated with not being Leonardo DiCaprio. That’s the difference. 2.) Puberty Blockers do not “radically alter” your body either. So neither of your claims are based in fact or the desire to learn. It’s not a matter of “chill”. It’s a matter of learning to accept. If you’re so worried about kids, why don’t you focus on 20-40% of American kids going to bed hungry tonight.
@@charliekowittmusic Tell that to the boy they force injected with "Puberty Blockers" as you so ignorantly call them in a California juvenile detention center. Allow me to educate your dumb ass, even though I'm a month late. There is no such thing as "puberty blockers", it's called Chemical Castration. You are giving a chemical to a male child, who is then not going to properly develop sexually, you are castrating that male.
@@Hongobogologomo Umm sorry but I’m a licensed/certified pharmacy technician and chemical castration is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from puberty blockers. Completely different class of drugs with their own taxonomy and everything. Since one person (supposedly) got assaulted with this drug we should.. what ban the drug? Guess you want guns banned then. Don’t presume to “educate” someone when you’re the dumbass who never read a single book on the topic. It’s people like you who are so entitled you think your opinion automatically matters, cause of.. why? What makes you qualified??
Great interview. “Let’s see what science says, and respect everyone at the same time”. I have a lot to learn and have enjoyed you two helping me to sort this out.
Its a horrible interview where he accepts every claim she makes without once pushing back. Did he do any research for this interview? Shermer is basically her hype man.
Much better than the Rogan interview. They recognize it's a controversial topic and move on. Rather than spending half the time complaining about how they can't have the conversation they're having.
Nothing is more irritating than spending time saying “omg we are SO canceled for this omg. It’s amazing we can even talk about this omg.” ..meanwhile they’re both freely speaking on the #1 rated podcast in the world, and trans people are fighting tooth and nail just to remove debunked nonsense from the DSM.
@@charliekowittmusic Was in reference to the collective, not the individual. If a Trump supporter said this, while leftist Biden supporters have free rein, kind of reasoning.
I married a tomboy we have twins and she is a great mother and a wonderful wife, she is neither trans nor lesbian/bisexual. She faced a lot of pressure from her parents as a child, been forced to wear dresses. As soon as she completed her high school, she wore her tom boy clothes, she fixed stuffs that usually in the 80’s were done by males. She only wore dresses when at work and as soon as she was home she was comfortable wearing jeans, baggy men’s shirts or sweaters. She is a woman and never claimed to be a non-binary or queer.
Then all goes to hell in debauchery and dissolution. Without the impulse to good, holiness and wholesomeness, we would end up with rottenness through and through, don’t you think?
WHICH "purity culture"? There USED to be only the right-wing, traditionally-religious version of 'purity culture". But now it's the left who are FAR more "puritanical", pious, and authoritarian; The left have become the driving force behind censoring """impure""" media, that they deem "racist", "bigotted", "transphobic", etc for the most petty, minor differences of opinion. It's no longer the religious right trying to shut down scientific study, for ideological reasons- There are hundreds of academics complaining that the left are trying to shut down valid research, going after scientists/academics personally, for their pursuit of ideologically "impure" ideas. We now have TWO competing "purity cultures"- The old, right-wing one (which has voting power, but little social power outside their own family, because boomer). And the NEW, LEFT WING purity culture, which has FAR more social power, especially online, far more power in lobbying corporations and gov't, etc (ie they're more effective at being petty-dictators, than the right ever were)
Counselling gender dysphoric individuals definitely shouldn't be confused with conversion therapy for gays. Otherwise, that could potentially limit the sort of therapeutic options available for people that are at increased risk of self-harm. In terms of phenomenology, also, the two aren't even the same. Gay conversion therapy is clearly pseudoscience and dangerous, whereas counselling somebody exploring their gender identity in a nonjudgmental way isn't harmful, and may be necessary to safeguard the ethical and legal integrity of gender reassignment for all transpersons.
demigodzilla ... _”transphobia deniers”?_ Whoa, never underestimate the power of denial I always say. And now these deniers are denying there’s transphobia? Who knew?? Way to (not) stick the landing demigodzilla.
Thanks for posting! As a progressive liberal living in Portland, OR I'm feeling alone in the twilight zone in this world where science and objective reality are labeled as racist.
Not sure what you are arguing, there is not much science involved in so called racial difference, minor adaptive secondary characteristics like skin color do not signify much. Evidence with regard to IQ differences has been shown to be very weak and frequently appears to be pursued by racists to justify their position rather than an objective exercise.
Dystoniaify Im also curious about this. Soh lacks any science to back up her claims. Hence she keeps retreating to “trans ideology comes from WHITE PEOPLE! They don’t represent real trans people!” And race, a social construct, and IQ differences among the races have not yet been demonstrated to the satisfaction of modern scientific standards. So.. what are you so tripped out by?
@@charliekowittmusic not worth arguing with an ideologue but I did notice she appears to have scientific evidence, however your side of the debate are in the process of cooking up evidence fairly soon as well as suppressing any science that does not agree with you.
tony peck The fact that you think I have a particular “side” and “ideology,” just because I pointed out that this particular woman has no scientific basis for her claims, makes YOU the ideologue lol. Embarrassing. Unlike you, I have no “side”. I am on the side of a well-functioning society where people are treated as equals, we don’t needlessly cling to outmoded vocabulary, and science dictates truth. I’m simply pointing out that this woman clings to her rhetoric in a way no serious academic needs to. No university or legit scientific journal would accept this as evidence in a million years.
We should be able to find a way forward for trans people that more fully accepts them into society without having to adopt views that hurt uncertain children, biological women and gay people. It seems to me like the trans activists are only thinking of what is best for themselves when they develop their ideas on how to be more accepted.
Great point, although their selfishness in this regard is completely understandable. Out of all the LGBT minorities, trans folk were probably the most oppressed and publicly stigmatised which is reflected in their suicide rate statistics.
John Thimakis to be fair we don’t know how much the suicide rate is reflect due to external factors, like stigmatisation, or rather due to internal factors such as their dysphoria
@@charliefoulds5989 Ok you have a point although (I've heard) there are some statistics that show suicide rates decrease after conversion. However there are also conflicting stats that say conversion makes no difference to suicide rates. Either way the rates are disturbing and there needs to be more research.
I'd like to address Michael's question at 27:00. He says, "If you're transitioning to a different gender, but the word gender is largely meaningless biologically, what are you transitioning to and what's the point if biology has nothing to do with it?" Whether or not you believe gender (sex?) to be biologically meaningless, it is certainly not socially meaningless. And social mores related to gender are very much attached to outward biological markers. Society treats someone with breasts differently than someone without them even if breasts mean very little about your ability to rebuild and engine, start a business or redecorate an office. Some people will follow this up with something like the question I asked a trans friend once, "When you change your body to conform to these gender ideals, aren't you just giving those ideals a lot of power? Just be who you want to be! You want to wear a dress and make-up? Fine. Why let them tell you how you have to look?" Her response was enlightening. She said (paraphrasing), "Don't you think that's asking me to do a lot of work? Yes, I wish we lived in a society where the shape of my body doesn't matter. But it's exhausting to buck this system all. the. time. I'm taking an opportunity to simplify my life. Some people will still see me as a trans-woman (and not really a woman), and I'll have to battle up hill a bit to combat that. But the medical work I'm doing will save me a lot of interpersonal work in a lot of places. That doesn't mean I'll stop working in other places to break down gender stereotypes. I'm just conserving energy in some places in order to do more work in other places."
all I'm saying is that human brains do not fully develop until age 25, so decisions made before that time must be met with substantial scrutiny. Unfortunately, our bodies develop far earlier than that, so there will always be issues.
then we have to let them undergo therapy to accept themselves. love the way you are. life would always be filled with rejection and things we can't have. if one isn't taught cope maturely and realistically with the realities of the world, how on earth would one manage to deal with complexities of life?
I have found that the best way to deal with friends and family with opposing views, is to write down the two opposite ends of the views; Then REFUSE to DEBATE them. Next make a list of things that you each agree on related to the subject. Then say you are only willing to discuss compromise that can achieve common goals. Whenever a subject drifts back to angry debate, start back at the first step. People can only convince themselves.
She is very smart but the problem is she gets too political and highly emotional as well when she talks. She's not a politician. I wish she would stop talking politics and using words like woke and left etc. She's a scientist. She needs to stick to the facts, science, research and stats and people will be more open to her. She's very intelligent and has some good arguments. But when she starts with the politics or political buzz works I can't tell if she is running for office or not. It's not a good look.
Growing up, I really wanted to be a boy because I wanted to be like my older brothers (I was the youngest of 3 with 2 older brothers). I dressed like a boy, hated dresses, played with toy cars and action figures…I was what we used to call a tomboy. I was devastated when I started going through puberty because I would no longer be able to “blend in” with them. However, as I got older I started liking “girly” things and grew out of my tomboy phase. I am now a heterosexual, feminine woman. I really wonder if I would’ve been told I was transgender if I had grown up in modern day society. I’m honestly so glad my parents just let me be. The world has gotten so much more complicated…
@Dreabz617 - I had some of the same feelings as a child and teenager - I did like girly dress up dresses though. But I preferred playing with my brother's action man to dolls, and enjoyed building ant farms in the garden etc. When I started my periods I wanted to die - my life was over - how could I cope with this every month? The pain, the shame and embarrassment. I felt the same about my breasts which developed when I was still in primary school. But all of these feelings were (I now know) connected to the disgusting myths surrounding women and sex that permeated society in the early '70's. I am a 62 year old heterosexual woman, but I wonder what I would have thought if someone told me I could stop puberty or change my body.
Hormone therapies on children are terrifying to me. I suppose I'm a "naturalist" so the default position should be self-acceptance as you are, or as "God made you" if you're religious. Probably what I'm afraid of is the slippery slope of dissatisfaction - if you don't like some part of yourself, if you think you can just change that, like changing the color of your hair, however small you start, where does that end? So there is a "dignity" in taking yourself as you are, and there's a "desperation" in trying to deny who you are, or change your appearance to try to change how others see you to try to change how you feel about yourself.
Please be clear about the Canadian bill c-16 that was referenced. In no way does it mandate the use of gender pronouns of any kind. The bill added gender identity and gender expression protection to the Human Rights Act (along with race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.). The threat perceived by Jordan Peterson is that it may compel people to use certain gender pronouns in order to avoid contravening the act. Most Canadians do not feel this threat and and supports this amendment. Law professionals also agree that not using preferred gender pronouns does not constitute hate speech. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Act_to_amend_the_Canadian_Human_Rights_Act_and_the_Criminal_Code
Sorry Mr. Shermer, I generally agree with you, but you should have showed your son you caring for the baby doll. My son is 4 and he will care for a doll although he loves playing Star Wars most, he’s been shown men can care for babies. My husband also cared for all our kids. He was great with babies and I’m sure my son will go on to be a great daddy too if he so chooses.
Glad you're still around, Michael. Never thought I'd see days like this. I thought science was winning until a few years ago. This is a nightmare. Back to the days if science in secret societies and hope to bring it back when people are listening - if they listen.
Hm. Around 90% of humans have a pretty clear defined gender. I enjoy variablility and love actors like Tilda Swinton, but don't make a minority look like the trendsetters.
Really interesting, I am slightly concerned by what will happen when the christian right catch up with the idea of transgender, at present they are allied with feminists (or terfs as transgender activists call them) against it. Once the christian right accept transgender ideology they can then get fully on board with using transgender ideology to erase homosexuality while claiming they are not being discriminatory. That is essentially what has happened in Iran.
@vctjkhme In Iran gender reassignment surgery is legal and accepted, while homosexuality is illegal, a homosexual man can legally only have sex with another man if he has had gender reassignment surgery and has been declared female..
great convo but ... a few critiques ... 1. Higher ed still carry lots of race, gender and class barriers, both in terms of cost, career grooming expectations effected by one's social sub-group. 2. Affirmative action CAN be done right and is vital to bringing down barriers bc, hiring standards are designed by and for white men and those willing to assimilate to be like them to 'join the white male standards' club. A FAR better approach is to change the standards to be more inclusive of different genders and ethnicities.
@Brianbeesandbikes - I agree. I'm currently researching why a group of women writers of the interwar years were, and still are, excluded from the canon of literature studied at university. It involves ancient myths about genius and maleness and the entire field of literary criticism/theory is involved. However, I do not want these writers to be given an automatic place because they are neglected - I just want these facts to be acknowledged.
@19:30 huge fan of Ms Soh but the term "trans" isn't evolving, it's that the activists have snuck transgenderism in where "trans" used to refer to transsexuality. I know Ms Soh knows that too so i'd suggest that the terms transgender and transsexual would be presented in the *same* statement about how there is a distinction.
Not clear why Debra Soh doesn’t think bathrooms are a concern, given what she explained about antisocial non-trans men exploiting the situation, and the stat that she gave about 90% of sexual harassment and assault complaints in UK swimming pools were in unisex spaces. A probable massive increase in sexual assault and harassment in what used to be women-only bathrooms isn’t a concern?
Which mans she is nor scientist at all. Philosophy and psychology are mostly conjecture and opinion. They regularily conclude BIG things from very small sample sets and statistical methods I find questionable.
15:36 bill 16c does not say you have to call people their requested pronouns . It says trans people are to be protected from harassment in the same way other groups are in the workplace. That's Peterson's grift Michael, don't bandwagon.
Great interview professor. I've seen Dr. Soh around, read her stuff and follow her on twitter: she is surely one of the sharpest knives in the drawer - a first class mind.And you do a good job of interviewing her as always. Thx. ----D.A., J.D. (writer/atty) New York City
incredible. I appreciate ALL Shermer's interviews and his approach to sensitive topics. I have a friend who is ultra liberal and will regularly state how rape is all and only about power. I feel the left has these pithy phrases that catch on like wildfire and then in a way become a doctrine and it's impossible to have any kind of reasonable argument after they cart one of these out. "Toxic masculinity" "believe all women", "victim blaming"....the list goes on. Its as though if you say anything that even remotely challenges any of these you have committed a thought crime or worse.
Debra so is a great speaker on this subject she knows what nuance is and states the facts. Some people seem to think there are no limits but we all have to deal with limitation in life. Being possessed by an Ideology does not exempt you from social or biological reality. Great conversation.
By the way what do you think about the opposite of that gender neutral talk because I am gender neutral or a-gender. My parents did nothing to make me go towards one gender or the other. I did it myself from personal preference and I ended up liking all things regardless of what gender they were for. I never discriminated based on what was for boys or for girls and I started doing that since forever. I was even doing it at age 3. So basically I hope you are not thinking that all kids have to be forced to be gender neutral because that is absolutely not true. I was born that way and I chose to live that way. I hope this helps. I have no problem admitting that my sex is male and I see no problem with it but I don't want for a second for anyone to think that I was pushed towards gender neutrality. I chose it for myself.
@Ruby if you say so but then in this case there are no trans people either. They are just people who dress up funny or mutilate their bodies for nothing.
@Ruby I see. So transgender people's subjective feeling of being the wrong gender is valid and for some reason my subjective feeling of having no gender is not? You hypocrite. Special pleading is a fallacy.
So let's suppose you handicap athletes on an individual basis to even up the chances of them winning. So then who wins is just a matter of statistics. Or suppose you don't do that. Then who wins is just a matter of being near the top of the outlier range. So, whichever you choose to do, what is the point? What is the 'meaning' of winning? What does a win mean? That despite adjustment for your testosterone level and other factors, you just happened to fractionally beat others, by chance? Or that without anyone being adjusted you simply won because you are the biggest outlier or genetic freak? I don't see how any of this is meaningful at all. What on earth is the point? . What people want is to believe that some particular person won not because of any of this but because they were more dedicated and made a greater effort of will. But ok, what if you adjust people so as to even up their chances, by compensating for the fact that some people have stronger willpower than others? Then we are back to a win being purely statistical and pointless. . So how does anyone find sport interesting? Sorry but I am an Aspie and to me it is all meaningless. If I were to watch a football game, there are only 4 outcomes: Win, lose, draw, and rained off. None of which I find interesting, as I cannot see why I would want to arbitrarily associate any allegiance with one team over another, whether the sport is football, chess, or programming competitions. . The only way I have ever found any sport or recreation to be fun is entirely to do with the sensory feedback from participating. But most of sport is watching other people doing it. Would you enjoy watching someone else eating an interesting meal? No, thought not. So why the interest in watching other people playing sport? It has been made into a business in which players get bought and sold between teams, so any concept of allegiance is no longer relevant, and it all comes down to the teams being commercial businesses, so watching a sport comes down to watching businesses competing. . Once upon a time, long ago, footballers in the UK were paid a few shillings to pay their bus fares to turn up on a Saturday, having worked their day job all week. They would have to provide their own sandwiches for half time, and after the match they were required to take their kit home and wash it themselves. All the team members were local people, not international playboys with a Maserati, a lenient sentence for speeding, and a villa in the South of France. That to me would be honest sport.
There's two aspects to sport. Play and spectacle. The core purpose of sport is "play" which is enjoyable in itself to players, sharpens the will and physique, enhances social bonding, gives life lessons etc. The spectacle aspect is more dubious. And you are right, it is way less rewarding and interesting to watch than to play. For one, there is the action aspect to it. Whatever happens in a sports spectacle is real, discrete (clear boundaries), and relatable (the human body). I mean, we also watch action movies; we generally know the "good guy" is going to win. It's not always just about outcomes but how those outcomes are arrived at. The artificial "evenness" made by things like divisions, weight classes, genders, etc. is to partly make restriction on how easily success can be achieved. A premier league footballer can dribble through a children's team and score; it's not interesting and exciting because it was easy. But when they do that against world class competition, it can be sublime, because you know the resistance was there and they still prevailed spectacularly. So, I think we artificially create this evenness so we can see these moments. In another sense, sports has mythic quality; it's not about what happens but what it represents; the timeless human struggle of conflict, loss, struggle, victory, redemption. The other part is tribalism. Success and failure in modern life is often abstract and divorced from a tangible reality. My stock when up, I got promoted staying at a desk for 2 years etc. No one asks you the "score" in your life. No one asks if you "won" today. No one asks "did we beat them?" We no longer go to war with our neighbours. Having a "team" is having an artificial and clear measure of success that you can share with a 'tribe' . You can emotionally invest in it, but not have to bear any real world consequences. These are not meant to justify sport; I'm not arguing "for" sport (I would argue for physical play however), but I do understand why people enjoy it. No, there is not an "inherent" value in it.
This discussion is filled with problems. How can a gender orientation, masculine or feminine, emphasis on the 'or,' not be related to genetics, or epigenetics. No mention of the latter. Experience is neglected in this discussion. The underlying theory is that genetic factors pre-exist birth and continue throughout the lifespan, genetic changes during the lifespan are not even considered. When Michael Shermer grips too strongly to the Jordan Peterson line, he relates his son's behavior at Target with scant understanding. If there are gender labeled toys, then it would be inappropriate for the boys to consider what is going on with girl's toys. There is social pressure for gender appropriate behavior which reflects on the shaming into the roles. However, parents may consider this difference. The gender difference is not being taught, the child is not being socialized to empathize with other gender orientations, as in degrees of! What is the child imitating, what instructions, tacit or implicit, is the child following? The problem is that class preferences are not being understood in the context of gender preferences. The boy prefers trucks, why not chemistry or electronic STEM games and equipment for children? Why not history puzzles, or, god-forbid, books!?The reproduction of class parallels the rigid sex distinction, but again, no awareness of this problem. It is astonishing that Soh can claim that rape is not about power, but about sex. Her definition must therefore be that rape is nothing but penetration, whereas Shermer is more ambiguous and expresses that rape is also about non-consent. Whenever there is disagreement, as this podcast expresses, any so-called self-evident claims or observations should be rejected and explained.
Hm, the way I understand it, genetics and epigenetics are different. Genetics study genotypical DNA changes, while epigenetics study phenotypical changes without a change in underlying DNA. I think what Soh was getting at is that epigenetics may not have as big of a part in someone's sexual orientation as genetics, although the studies about varying levels of sex hormones and relationship with sexual orientation lends credibility to epigenetics if no DNA changes occur. I also believe the role of environment and sexual orientation has been largely abandoned by scientists because they've been able to establish reverse causality: that BECAUSE someone is gender atypical, they experience more trauma and abuse.
@@StrongbyLee Interactions with the environment is the reciprocal of gene action which also involves epigenetics - the effect of no genetic material on gene action, either activating a genetic sequence, say production of adrenaline which includes production of the neurotransmitter epinephrine. Free floating hormone levels can lead to excess production of hormones, that is, conditioning from experience with environment can lead to extreme reactions like anger and violence, or panic and hysteria. The environment is a key variable never dissociated from genetics or epigenetics. On the other issue, sexual orientation is learned and related to genetic propensities. Try to account for infertility or sexual aberrations, extreme dimorphism, for example. First there is the cultural input from generations of mating rules and practices, and then there are genetic mutations from matches that are either too close or too far apart which can cause defects and infertility. Consider that nearly 40% of women do not even get pregnant during their lifetimes or potentially fertility period from menarche to menopause. So, genetics, epigenetics and interactions with the environment are interrelated!
Skeptics: communists killed millions of people Larry Summers: kills 3 to 10 million russians (unicef numbers) Skeptics: crickets Larry Summers: gets cancelled for innocent remark on gender Skeptics: Hey, protect this man!
We all have contra sexual elements within our make up and these traditionally have been projected onto the opposite sex and this forms the basis on which relationships are built. In the past those who attempted to integrate rather than project these qualities have been seen as the mystics, seers and religious sages in society. Those who attempt the process of integration rather than projection will encounter many complex and often insoluble obstacles in their journey, so very few attempt it. The current fashion is for the deconstruction of existing roles and mores, a consequence of this is that there is little or no structure left in which contra sexual relationships can develop........ so good luck with that and ".....thanks for all the fish"
Irrational fear of androgyny is kind of adolescent problem. It seems to be that too many boomers are still pathologically immature. Especially when it comes to erotica. There has always been much more androgyny in the population than most people realized. It has merely been hidden by massive insecurity in popular fashion. Biology should only be important to your doctor and you, it should be none of the state's business.
>"Biology should only be important to your doctor and you, it should be none of the state's business." Biologcal males commit >98% of sex crimes, are physically stronger than 99% of same-aged females. While females make up >85% of victims of sex crimes. (And those stats persist, REGARDLESS of "gender"; In fact, data says that mtf/"transwomen" commt sex crimes at a significantly HIGHER rate than other men, rather than somehow adopting the female's much lower rates.
Bacon head - 100% of human on human crime is committed by other humans - so... no humans should be allowed to interact with other humans in an unsupervised place??? And isn't the person doing an assault, usually "physically stronger" than the person they are assaulting? Perhaps a strength and fight test before using a toilet?
Don't the few people who are interested in that kind of thing do it already? Personally I find it icky, and there are concerns for birth defects and abusive power dynamics within families. But if you can find a situation where the only objection is a personal disgust it makes you wonder if it is worth objecting to.
Excellent discussion. Thank you. But... I'm completely distracted by the microphone covering up the person's mouth while they're speaking. Maybe it's just me and I am unconsciously depending on some level of lip reading and (whole) facial expressions. Dr. Soh is not an animated speaker to begin with so this just amplifies the effect. Guess I'll launch my screensaver during the rest of the discussion.
"Just because you're a feminine man, doesn't mean you're not a man." But being a feminine man and being a masculine woman are very different. There is far more pressure on men not to be feminine than there is on women not to be masculine, and there are reasons for that. I guess one of the reasons is the assumption that a feminine man is less competent as a parent, and I think that is true.
@@guineapiglady7802 A child needs a male and a female role model, and it's the job of the father to present the child with a male role model and of the mother to present it with a female role model, there is absolutely nothing toxic about that. You've been brainwashed by a toxic ideology, namely feminism.
Interesting, I'm gay and actually agree with everything she says. It's hard to explain but as a kid I probably had no concept of gender yet I was usually doing girly stuff and associated mostly with girls rather than boys but I never wanted to BE a girl. I was just gay which I realized at 12-13.
Not sure why Soh or Shermer are unable to comprehend that what they are characterizing as "masculine" (boy's toys, haircuts, clothes, etc). and what they are characterizing as "feminine" (girl's toys, haircuts, clothing, etc.) are defined by one's moment in history and culture, therefore a complete and total SOCIAL CONSTRUCT.
You're oversimplifying. Children of other ape species show a sex difference in how they play when they are given toys. Female children are more likely to engage in nurturing play across a species line in hominids. And male children in violent or tool-use play. Women's hairstyles allow for display of great hair, which is, or used to be, an honest, costly signal of fitness. Women's clothes tend to restrict how much and what kinds of physical work one can perform, displaying status. Boys, when not given weapon toys, may even bite pieces off a cookie to make it resemble a weapon and use it in the same manner as a toy weapon. When I studied sociology, I was often struck dumb by the inability of even my professors to see how everything psychological to say nothing of social rides on biology. Nothing we do contradicts our biology. It literally can't. Sometimes our biology allows us to do things that decrease our fitness, but it's still our biology expressing itself.
No, Merkel is NOT "one of the great leaders that country's ever had" (I guess you meant "one of the greatest", if the grammar in that sentence is supposed to make any sense). Merkel was responsible for the 2015 border disaster, and what she did was typical of people, both women and emasculated men, who are suffering from a perversion of the mother instinct: Just let two million people in, although we know we are unable to take care of them all. Here I really have the feeling that you're idealising her just because she's a woman (and because you're talking to a woman).
Debra Soh appears to be the latest figurehead and media darling, but she is no expert in this area despite marketing herself as such. Just look at her area of study, who she studied under and it clear she has adopted a position of pathology based on this rather than a scientific position of diversity found in nature. The problem is that she is under the illusion that she represents science her academic lineage is less-than-so.
@Joe Bloggs Funny you say that because when she was on Joe Rogan she did say that she was more masculine in her outlook and interests such as being into mixed martial arts. Somewhat surprised Rogan when she said that.
It is interesting that science is constantly redefining definitions in all subjects but gender seems to be the most caustic, immovable and sacred of all definitions to some. Redefining gender for some is taken up with a curious reaction that has religious and/or tribal connotations. It's very amusing seeing another 'doctor' try to use a hot button issue to launch themselves into the realm of celebrity for personal gain by breaking people down to statistics that does not reflect with any reality the truth of the experiences at hand.
@Bob Charles well, the term gender wasnt originally conflated with sex, but after some controversy started by people who didn't want to use the term "sex" to describe what was in their pants, they decided to use the term "gender" as an alternative. In the beginning, it was meant to be used to refer to the social construct of gender, but now the word has become conflated with "sex".
You cannot compare being critical to gay marriage to being critical to abolition of slavery, Michael, that's not serious. Marriage is an institution that was invented for one man and one woman her in the West, and there were reasons for that. The (traditional, you would have to say nowadays) family has always been and will always be the basis for a healthy, harmonious society and being against gay marriage is by no means irrational, quite on the contrary. The next step would be to be in favour of gay adoption rights, and as far as I know, all countries who give babies to adoption internationally have rejected adoption by gay couples in countries which gave gays that right, and there are good reasons for that rejection too. Your argument was cheap and dishonest.
"Cognitive creationism"? You haven't looked at creation science lately have you Mr. Shermer? You should because you may be surprised at what it disproves categorically about evolution & darwinism, and validates the Biblical account adeptly, logically and scientifically.
Debra Soh is such an interesting person. She is just ridiculously reasonable in her approach to these discussions, she isn't prone to emotional outbursts, she isn't calling people out, she is just very calmly pointing out facts. It's ridiculous that she would have to actually constantly point out that what she is saying doesn't put her at odds with the trans community, and I'm sure most of them agree. But like any group of activists, they actively seek enemies as if it's going to make them stronger.
@demigodzilla Haha, I did use it twice in one comment, it's true. Ridiculous is one of my probably top 5 favorite adjectives. There are a couple of things that I say in which my wife points out that I use the work or phrase a lot. Absurd is another one of my favorites. Sometimes though, to mix it up, I refer to ridiculous things as "clown shoes". "It's clown shoes that she would have to actually constantly...."
Opinions* lol nice try tho
@B. Enceladus Resurrecting dead threads is an interesting pastime. So now in order to ingest facts I must first be an expert on those facts? That is incredibly circular reasoning. I can't corroborate her facts, but her detractors are not using any facts at all. If you ask me to pick between the people sighting facts and the people just throwing ad hominen attacks at everyone, I know who I will choose to side with.
@kavorka8855
Appeal to Authority Fallacy.
I personally can testify to what Debra says. When I was kid, I felt I was a girl. I used to dress up, act like girls around me etc... my parents were OK with that and let me. But as I grew up, when I think i was 11, i started to like boys romantically. long story short, i came out as gay when i was around 14, 15. and during this time gradually i became more and more comfortable with being male. after that i identify fully as male and i am quite happy with my biological sex and gender identity.
good for you for sharing your truth.
@demigodzilla Well, if he's telling the truth, it shows kids can grow out of a "transgender phase". In which case... Maybe we should chill a little? Let them grow up and make their decision as adults? By the way, I don't really understand what kind of "self-acceptance" it is that requires you to pretty radically alter your body. I live with the fact I am not Leonardo DiCaprio, I'm not going to have surgery to try and change that...
Genetic Flotsam 1.) You don’t experience dysphoria associated with not being Leonardo DiCaprio. That’s the difference.
2.) Puberty Blockers do not “radically alter” your body either. So neither of your claims are based in fact or the desire to learn.
It’s not a matter of “chill”.
It’s a matter of learning to accept.
If you’re so worried about kids, why don’t you focus on 20-40% of American kids going to bed hungry tonight.
@@charliekowittmusic Tell that to the boy they force injected with "Puberty Blockers" as you so ignorantly call them in a California juvenile detention center.
Allow me to educate your dumb ass, even though I'm a month late.
There is no such thing as "puberty blockers", it's called Chemical Castration. You are giving a chemical to a male child, who is then not going to properly develop sexually, you are castrating that male.
@@Hongobogologomo Umm sorry but I’m a licensed/certified pharmacy technician and chemical castration is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from puberty blockers. Completely different class of drugs with their own taxonomy and everything.
Since one person (supposedly) got assaulted with this drug we should.. what ban the drug?
Guess you want guns banned then.
Don’t presume to “educate” someone when you’re the dumbass who never read a single book on the topic.
It’s people like you who are so entitled you think your opinion automatically matters, cause of.. why? What makes you qualified??
Great interview. “Let’s see what science says, and respect everyone at the same time”. I have a lot to learn and have enjoyed you two helping me to sort this out.
Its a horrible interview where he accepts every claim she makes without once pushing back. Did he do any research for this interview? Shermer is basically her hype man.
Much better than the Rogan interview. They recognize it's a controversial topic and move on. Rather than spending half the time complaining about how they can't have the conversation they're having.
Haven't watched this one yet, but very true about the Rogan podcast.
She has done two on Rogan. I found the first one much more interesting and it covered most of the issues on here.
Nothing is more irritating than spending time saying “omg we are SO canceled for this omg. It’s amazing we can even talk about this omg.”
..meanwhile they’re both freely speaking on the #1 rated podcast in the world, and trans people are fighting tooth and nail just to remove debunked nonsense from the DSM.
@@charliekowittmusic Was in reference to the collective, not the individual.
If a Trump supporter said this, while leftist Biden supporters have free rein, kind of reasoning.
Literally covered at the 3:50 mark with relating to cancel-culture and personal attacks, context is important.
I married a tomboy we have twins and she is a great mother and a wonderful wife, she is neither trans nor lesbian/bisexual. She faced a lot of pressure from her parents as a child, been forced to wear dresses.
As soon as she completed her high school, she wore her tom boy clothes, she fixed stuffs that usually in the 80’s were done by males. She only wore dresses when at work and as soon as she was home she was comfortable wearing jeans, baggy men’s shirts or sweaters.
She is a woman and never claimed to be a non-binary or queer.
Purity culture should be stopped. Being flawed is universal.
Then all goes to hell in debauchery and dissolution. Without the impulse to good, holiness and wholesomeness, we would end up with rottenness through and through, don’t you think?
@@sharhi You failed to understand what I was talking about. Should you go to jail in case you offended someone?
@@howtheworldworks3 No of course not. I missed the nuance in your statement. I got it now. Thanks for the clarification.
No kidding. Take the piss out of a vegan. Almost as bad.
WHICH "purity culture"? There USED to be only the right-wing, traditionally-religious version of 'purity culture". But now it's the left who are FAR more "puritanical", pious, and authoritarian; The left have become the driving force behind censoring """impure""" media, that they deem "racist", "bigotted", "transphobic", etc for the most petty, minor differences of opinion. It's no longer the religious right trying to shut down scientific study, for ideological reasons- There are hundreds of academics complaining that the left are trying to shut down valid research, going after scientists/academics personally, for their pursuit of ideologically "impure" ideas.
We now have TWO competing "purity cultures"- The old, right-wing one (which has voting power, but little social power outside their own family, because boomer). And the NEW, LEFT WING purity culture, which has FAR more social power, especially online, far more power in lobbying corporations and gov't, etc (ie they're more effective at being petty-dictators, than the right ever were)
Counselling gender dysphoric individuals definitely shouldn't be confused with conversion therapy for gays. Otherwise, that could potentially limit the sort of therapeutic options available for people that are at increased risk of self-harm.
In terms of phenomenology, also, the two aren't even the same. Gay conversion therapy is clearly pseudoscience and dangerous, whereas counselling somebody exploring their gender identity in a nonjudgmental way isn't harmful, and may be necessary to safeguard the ethical and legal integrity of gender reassignment for all transpersons.
Scary that a professional expressing research evidence is hounded, shouted down by either side of political spectrum.
Yeah, just as Erin Pizzey was. I just remembered, her cohost trashed Erin Pizzey on their podcast.
What do you think about this: people such as Steven Pinker love to ignore research saying that women also rape.
@demigodzilla lol everyone is a transphobe to you idiots
demigodzilla I see no transphopia in Debra.... please explain...
demigodzilla ... _”transphobia deniers”?_ Whoa, never underestimate the power of denial I always say. And now these deniers are denying there’s transphobia? Who knew?? Way to (not) stick the landing demigodzilla.
I love Deborah and it really pisses me off how people keep saying she is an Asian. I mean . . . she's obviously a Vulcan!
Thanks for posting! As a progressive liberal living in Portland, OR I'm feeling alone in the twilight zone in this world where science and objective reality are labeled as racist.
I’m also progressive, very liberal but I can’t fathom ignoring actual science and biology.
Not sure what you are arguing, there is not much science involved in so called racial difference, minor adaptive secondary characteristics like skin color do not signify much. Evidence with regard to IQ differences has been shown to be very weak and frequently appears to be pursued by racists to justify their position rather than an objective exercise.
Dystoniaify Im also curious about this.
Soh lacks any science to back up her claims. Hence she keeps retreating to “trans ideology comes from WHITE PEOPLE! They don’t represent real trans people!”
And race, a social construct, and IQ differences among the races have not yet been demonstrated to the satisfaction of modern scientific standards.
So.. what are you so tripped out by?
@@charliekowittmusic not worth arguing with an ideologue but I did notice she appears to have scientific evidence, however your side of the debate are in the process of cooking up evidence fairly soon as well as suppressing any science that does not agree with you.
tony peck The fact that you think I have a particular “side” and “ideology,” just because I pointed out that this particular woman has no scientific basis for her claims, makes YOU the ideologue lol. Embarrassing.
Unlike you, I have no “side”.
I am on the side of a well-functioning society where people are treated as equals, we don’t needlessly cling to outmoded vocabulary, and science dictates truth.
I’m simply pointing out that this woman clings to her rhetoric in a way no serious academic needs to. No university or legit scientific journal would accept this as evidence in a million years.
".... I can't menstruate. Period."
He said, with a poker face.
Or CAN he? 😉
We should be able to find a way forward for trans people that more fully accepts them into society without having to adopt views that hurt uncertain children, biological women and gay people.
It seems to me like the trans activists are only thinking of what is best for themselves when they develop their ideas on how to be more accepted.
Great point, although their selfishness in this regard is completely understandable. Out of all the LGBT minorities, trans folk were probably the most oppressed and publicly stigmatised which is reflected in their suicide rate statistics.
John Thimakis to be fair we don’t know how much the suicide rate is reflect due to external factors, like stigmatisation, or rather due to internal factors such as their dysphoria
@@charliefoulds5989
Ok you have a point although (I've heard) there are some statistics that show suicide rates decrease after conversion. However there are also conflicting stats that say conversion makes no difference to suicide rates.
Either way the rates are disturbing and there needs to be more research.
And especially in relatively non-accepting countries like the US, this can potentially create a toxic situation for all LGBT people.
I'd like to address Michael's question at 27:00. He says, "If you're transitioning to a different gender, but the word gender is largely meaningless biologically, what are you transitioning to and what's the point if biology has nothing to do with it?"
Whether or not you believe gender (sex?) to be biologically meaningless, it is certainly not socially meaningless. And social mores related to gender are very much attached to outward biological markers. Society treats someone with breasts differently than someone without them even if breasts mean very little about your ability to rebuild and engine, start a business or redecorate an office. Some people will follow this up with something like the question I asked a trans friend once, "When you change your body to conform to these gender ideals, aren't you just giving those ideals a lot of power? Just be who you want to be! You want to wear a dress and make-up? Fine. Why let them tell you how you have to look?"
Her response was enlightening. She said (paraphrasing), "Don't you think that's asking me to do a lot of work? Yes, I wish we lived in a society where the shape of my body doesn't matter. But it's exhausting to buck this system all. the. time. I'm taking an opportunity to simplify my life. Some people will still see me as a trans-woman (and not really a woman), and I'll have to battle up hill a bit to combat that. But the medical work I'm doing will save me a lot of interpersonal work in a lot of places. That doesn't mean I'll stop working in other places to break down gender stereotypes. I'm just conserving energy in some places in order to do more work in other places."
all I'm saying is that human brains do not fully develop until age 25, so decisions made before that time must be met with substantial scrutiny. Unfortunately, our bodies develop far earlier than that, so there will always be issues.
@x omega yea your brain never stops learning or retaining information, the regions of the brain just become fully formed around that age.
@x omega Add some punctuation, it's hard to see what you're saying here, but I think I get it.
then we have to let them undergo therapy to accept themselves. love the way you are. life would always be filled with rejection and things we can't have. if one isn't taught cope maturely and realistically with the realities of the world, how on earth would one manage to deal with complexities of life?
the problem with that line of reasoning is your brain starts to decline at age 28...
Great conversation. Debra Soh always interesting.
I have found that the best way to deal with friends and family with opposing views, is to write down the two opposite ends of the views; Then REFUSE to DEBATE them. Next make a list of things that you each agree on related to the subject. Then say you are only willing to discuss compromise that can achieve common goals. Whenever a subject drifts back to angry debate, start back at the first step. People can only convince themselves.
She is very smart but the problem is she gets too political and highly emotional as well when she talks. She's not a politician. I wish she would stop talking politics and using words like woke and left etc.
She's a scientist. She needs to stick to the facts, science, research and stats and people will be more open to her. She's very intelligent and has some good arguments. But when she starts with the politics or political buzz works I can't tell if she is running for office or not. It's not a good look.
Growing up, I really wanted to be a boy because I wanted to be like my older brothers (I was the youngest of 3 with 2 older brothers). I dressed like a boy, hated dresses, played with toy cars and action figures…I was what we used to call a tomboy. I was devastated when I started going through puberty because I would no longer be able to “blend in” with them. However, as I got older I started liking “girly” things and grew out of my tomboy phase. I am now a heterosexual, feminine woman. I really wonder if I would’ve been told I was transgender if I had grown up in modern day society. I’m honestly so glad my parents just let me be. The world has gotten so much more complicated…
@Dreabz617 - I had some of the same feelings as a child and teenager - I did like girly dress up dresses though. But I preferred playing with my brother's action man to dolls, and enjoyed building ant farms in the garden etc. When I started my periods I wanted to die - my life was over - how could I cope with this every month? The pain, the shame and embarrassment. I felt the same about my breasts which developed when I was still in primary school. But all of these feelings were (I now know) connected to the disgusting myths surrounding women and sex that permeated society in the early '70's.
I am a 62 year old heterosexual woman, but I wonder what I would have thought if someone told me I could stop puberty or change my body.
Hormone therapies on children are terrifying to me. I suppose I'm a "naturalist" so the default position should be self-acceptance as you are, or as "God made you" if you're religious. Probably what I'm afraid of is the slippery slope of dissatisfaction - if you don't like some part of yourself, if you think you can just change that, like changing the color of your hair, however small you start, where does that end? So there is a "dignity" in taking yourself as you are, and there's a "desperation" in trying to deny who you are, or change your appearance to try to change how others see you to try to change how you feel about yourself.
Changing your hair color is kinda different…
@@grahamstrouse1165 Good choice! Blue is popular these days.
Some advantages of going through puberty with testosterone never go away.
Like height. Taking estrogen in adulthood doesn’t magically make you shorten 5”.
Advantages? 🤮 Girl I gotta get surgery to fix my brick ass lol
@@tteot1wph Height, arm span, hand size, lung capacity, fast twitch muscles...
Please be clear about the Canadian bill c-16 that was referenced. In no way does it mandate the use of gender pronouns of any kind. The bill added gender identity and gender expression protection to the Human Rights Act (along with race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.). The threat perceived by Jordan Peterson is that it may compel people to use certain gender pronouns in order to avoid contravening the act. Most Canadians do not feel this threat and and supports this amendment. Law professionals also agree that not using preferred gender pronouns does not constitute hate speech. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Act_to_amend_the_Canadian_Human_Rights_Act_and_the_Criminal_Code
Sorry Mr. Shermer, I generally agree with you, but you should have showed your son you caring for the baby doll. My son is 4 and he will care for a doll although he loves playing Star Wars most, he’s been shown men can care for babies. My husband also cared for all our kids. He was great with babies and I’m sure my son will go on to be a great daddy too if he so chooses.
The philosophical problem is the base on semantics not in physics, biology, or metaethics... my opinion.
Very astute of you. I agree. The issue is semantically powered, maintained, argued and perhaps even entirely semantically created.
Glad you're still around, Michael.
Never thought I'd see days like this. I thought science was winning until a few years ago. This is a nightmare. Back to the days if science in secret societies and hope to bring it back when people are listening - if they listen.
…especially coming from the atheist side that encourages people to use critical thinking skills.
Hm. Around 90% of humans have a pretty clear defined gender. I enjoy variablility and love actors like Tilda Swinton, but don't make a minority look like the trendsetters.
It's 99%
yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/sex-gender-and-identity-revolution#:~:text=The%20term%20cisgender%20describes%20people,in%20line%20with%20each%20other.&text=While%20some%20are%20non-binary,is%20either%20male%20or%20female.
So True: "If he tells you that he thinks (about sex) the same way you do, he's probably lying".
Really interesting, I am slightly concerned by what will happen when the christian right catch up with the idea of transgender, at present they are allied with feminists (or terfs as transgender activists call them) against it. Once the christian right accept transgender ideology they can then get fully on board with using transgender ideology to erase homosexuality while claiming they are not being discriminatory. That is essentially what has happened in Iran.
@vctjkhme In Iran gender reassignment surgery is legal and accepted, while homosexuality is illegal, a homosexual man can legally only have sex with another man if he has had gender reassignment surgery and has been declared female..
great convo but ... a few critiques ...
1. Higher ed still carry lots of race, gender and class barriers, both in terms of cost, career grooming expectations effected by one's social sub-group.
2. Affirmative action CAN be done right and is vital to bringing down barriers bc, hiring standards are designed by and for white men and those willing to assimilate to be like them to 'join the white male standards' club. A FAR better approach is to change the standards to be more inclusive of different genders and ethnicities.
@Brianbeesandbikes - I agree. I'm currently researching why a group of women writers of the interwar years were, and still are, excluded from the canon of literature studied at university. It involves ancient myths about genius and maleness and the entire field of literary criticism/theory is involved. However, I do not want these writers to be given an automatic place because they are neglected - I just want these facts to be acknowledged.
57:50~58:52 Dr. Soh's opinion on trans bathrooms
@19:30 huge fan of Ms Soh but the term "trans" isn't evolving, it's that the activists have snuck transgenderism in where "trans" used to refer to transsexuality. I know Ms Soh knows that too so i'd suggest that the terms transgender and transsexual would be presented in the *same* statement about how there is a distinction.
So funny, I just saw that episode too. It seemed so reasonable now, but so odd back in the 90's
Not clear why Debra Soh doesn’t think bathrooms are a concern, given what she explained about antisocial non-trans men exploiting the situation, and the stat that she gave about 90% of sexual harassment and assault complaints in UK swimming pools were in unisex spaces. A probable massive increase in sexual assault and harassment in what used to be women-only bathrooms isn’t a concern?
Thanks for the information, very interesting !
She is not a neuroscientist. Soh holds a Doctor of Philosophy degree in psychology from York University in Toronto.
Which University did you attend?
Which mans she is nor scientist at all. Philosophy and psychology are mostly conjecture and opinion. They regularily conclude BIG things from very small sample sets and statistical methods I find questionable.
So she has to be a neuroscientist to have an opinion? She certainly has more credibility than all of us as she is researching the topic.
@@customisedfitness and @Bob Charles So she's introduced as such and it says in the description that she's a neuroscientist.
Psychology is a mature science with thousands of first rate researchers and several Nobel laureates.
Surprisingly, "The Outcast" episode of Startrek is next on my Netflix cue! :o
Love hearing Shermer say “thank God” 😉
@Vlasko60😂😂😂😂
I wish more people listen to this
Someone needs to tell her she can turn up her mic Db and move it out of frame.
and sm58 has built in pop filter so no need for the screen
People don't always have the space, and personally I don't care.
@@pez--- Hello fellow sound guy. Also sm58 is really hard to move out of frame because it has really limited range, and high noise floor.
I have awful hearing but had no trouble hearing every word she said -
15:36 bill 16c does not say you have to call people their requested pronouns . It says trans people are to be protected from harassment in the same way other groups are in the workplace. That's Peterson's grift Michael, don't bandwagon.
26:48 Markings so interesting comments this is roughly one.
Great interview professor. I've seen Dr. Soh around, read her stuff and follow her on twitter: she is surely one of the sharpest knives in the drawer - a first class mind.And you do a good job of interviewing her as always. Thx. ----D.A., J.D. (writer/atty) New York City
incredible. I appreciate ALL Shermer's interviews and his approach to sensitive topics. I have a friend who is ultra liberal and will regularly state how rape is all and only about power. I feel the left has these pithy phrases that catch on like wildfire and then in a way become a doctrine and it's impossible to have any kind of reasonable argument after they cart one of these out. "Toxic masculinity" "believe all women", "victim blaming"....the list goes on. Its as though if you say anything that even remotely challenges any of these you have committed a thought crime or worse.
When did Shermer turn into Lorne Michaels?
Debra so is a great speaker on this subject she knows what nuance is and states the facts. Some people seem to think there are no limits but we all have to deal with limitation in life. Being possessed by an Ideology does not exempt you from social or biological reality. Great conversation.
First-rate discussion. I was rewarded.
"Cognitive creationism" -- fascinating
By the way what do you think about the opposite of that gender neutral talk because I am gender neutral or a-gender. My parents did nothing to make me go towards one gender or the other. I did it myself from personal preference and I ended up liking all things regardless of what gender they were for. I never discriminated based on what was for boys or for girls and I started doing that since forever. I was even doing it at age 3. So basically I hope you are not thinking that all kids have to be forced to be gender neutral because that is absolutely not true. I was born that way and I chose to live that way. I hope this helps. I have no problem admitting that my sex is male and I see no problem with it but I don't want for a second for anyone to think that I was pushed towards gender neutrality. I chose it for myself.
@Ruby if you say so but then in this case there are no trans people either. They are just people who dress up funny or mutilate their bodies for nothing.
@Ruby I see. So transgender people's subjective feeling of being the wrong gender is valid and for some reason my subjective feeling of having no gender is not? You hypocrite. Special pleading is a fallacy.
Coin toss analogy is binary 50:50 . There is about 1:5000 chance of a nickel landing on its edge Cointossing outcome are on a spectrum?,?
Sir you have my respect for being an atheist and supporting the science about this, which is how it should be.
So let's suppose you handicap athletes on an individual basis to even up the chances of them winning. So then who wins is just a matter of statistics. Or suppose you don't do that. Then who wins is just a matter of being near the top of the outlier range. So, whichever you choose to do, what is the point? What is the 'meaning' of winning? What does a win mean? That despite adjustment for your testosterone level and other factors, you just happened to fractionally beat others, by chance? Or that without anyone being adjusted you simply won because you are the biggest outlier or genetic freak? I don't see how any of this is meaningful at all. What on earth is the point?
.
What people want is to believe that some particular person won not because of any of this but because they were more dedicated and made a greater effort of will. But ok, what if you adjust people so as to even up their chances, by compensating for the fact that some people have stronger willpower than others? Then we are back to a win being purely statistical and pointless.
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So how does anyone find sport interesting? Sorry but I am an Aspie and to me it is all meaningless. If I were to watch a football game, there are only 4 outcomes: Win, lose, draw, and rained off. None of which I find interesting, as I cannot see why I would want to arbitrarily associate any allegiance with one team over another, whether the sport is football, chess, or programming competitions.
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The only way I have ever found any sport or recreation to be fun is entirely to do with the sensory feedback from participating. But most of sport is watching other people doing it. Would you enjoy watching someone else eating an interesting meal? No, thought not. So why the interest in watching other people playing sport? It has been made into a business in which players get bought and sold between teams, so any concept of allegiance is no longer relevant, and it all comes down to the teams being commercial businesses, so watching a sport comes down to watching businesses competing.
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Once upon a time, long ago, footballers in the UK were paid a few shillings to pay their bus fares to turn up on a Saturday, having worked their day job all week. They would have to provide their own sandwiches for half time, and after the match they were required to take their kit home and wash it themselves. All the team members were local people, not international playboys with a Maserati, a lenient sentence for speeding, and a villa in the South of France. That to me would be honest sport.
There's two aspects to sport. Play and spectacle. The core purpose of sport is "play" which is enjoyable in itself to players, sharpens the will and physique, enhances social bonding, gives life lessons etc.
The spectacle aspect is more dubious. And you are right, it is way less rewarding and interesting to watch than to play. For one, there is the action aspect to it. Whatever happens in a sports spectacle is real, discrete (clear boundaries), and relatable (the human body). I mean, we also watch action movies; we generally know the "good guy" is going to win. It's not always just about outcomes but how those outcomes are arrived at. The artificial "evenness" made by things like divisions, weight classes, genders, etc. is to partly make restriction on how easily success can be achieved. A premier league footballer can dribble through a children's team and score; it's not interesting and exciting because it was easy. But when they do that against world class competition, it can be sublime, because you know the resistance was there and they still prevailed spectacularly.
So, I think we artificially create this evenness so we can see these moments. In another sense, sports has mythic quality; it's not about what happens but what it represents; the timeless human struggle of conflict, loss, struggle, victory, redemption.
The other part is tribalism. Success and failure in modern life is often abstract and divorced from a tangible reality. My stock when up, I got promoted staying at a desk for 2 years etc. No one asks you the "score" in your life. No one asks if you "won" today. No one asks "did we beat them?" We no longer go to war with our neighbours. Having a "team" is having an artificial and clear measure of success that you can share with a 'tribe' . You can emotionally invest in it, but not have to bear any real world consequences.
These are not meant to justify sport; I'm not arguing "for" sport (I would argue for physical play however), but I do understand why people enjoy it. No, there is not an "inherent" value in it.
Preach it brother!
Michael Shermer has the strangest mail correspondence lol
Biology of character, so murders are born as are pedophiles.
So it's not a crime, just a biological imperative.
Debra So is absorbed gorgeous. Her eyes, lips and hair. Truly stunning looking woman 😍
absorbed?!
Very interesting thank you!
This discussion is filled with problems. How can a gender orientation, masculine or feminine, emphasis on the 'or,' not be related to genetics, or epigenetics. No mention of the latter. Experience is neglected in this discussion. The underlying theory is that genetic factors pre-exist birth and continue throughout the lifespan, genetic changes during the lifespan are not even considered. When Michael Shermer grips too strongly to the Jordan Peterson line, he relates his son's behavior at Target with scant understanding. If there are gender labeled toys, then it would be inappropriate for the boys to consider what is going on with girl's toys. There is social pressure for gender appropriate behavior which reflects on the shaming into the roles. However, parents may consider this difference. The gender difference is not being taught, the child is not being socialized to empathize with other gender orientations, as in degrees of! What is the child imitating, what instructions, tacit or implicit, is the child following? The problem is that class preferences are not being understood in the context of gender preferences. The boy prefers trucks, why not chemistry or electronic STEM games and equipment for children? Why not history puzzles, or, god-forbid, books!?The reproduction of class parallels the rigid sex distinction, but again, no awareness of this problem.
It is astonishing that Soh can claim that rape is not about power, but about sex. Her definition must therefore be that rape is nothing but penetration, whereas Shermer is more ambiguous and expresses that rape is also about non-consent. Whenever there is disagreement, as this podcast expresses, any so-called self-evident claims or observations should be rejected and explained.
Hm, the way I understand it, genetics and epigenetics are different. Genetics study genotypical DNA changes, while epigenetics study phenotypical changes without a change in underlying DNA.
I think what Soh was getting at is that epigenetics may not have as big of a part in someone's sexual orientation as genetics, although the studies about varying levels of sex hormones and relationship with sexual orientation lends credibility to epigenetics if no DNA changes occur.
I also believe the role of environment and sexual orientation has been largely abandoned by scientists because they've been able to establish reverse causality: that BECAUSE someone is gender atypical, they experience more trauma and abuse.
@@StrongbyLee Interactions with the environment is the reciprocal of gene action which also involves epigenetics - the effect of no genetic material on gene action, either activating a genetic sequence, say production of adrenaline which includes production of the neurotransmitter epinephrine. Free floating hormone levels can lead to excess production of hormones, that is, conditioning from experience with environment can lead to extreme reactions like anger and violence, or panic and hysteria. The environment is a key variable never dissociated from genetics or epigenetics.
On the other issue, sexual orientation is learned and related to genetic propensities. Try to account for infertility or sexual aberrations, extreme dimorphism, for example. First there is the cultural input from generations of mating rules and practices, and then there are genetic mutations from matches that are either too close or too far apart which can cause defects and infertility. Consider that nearly 40% of women do not even get pregnant during their lifetimes or potentially fertility period from menarche to menopause.
So, genetics, epigenetics and interactions with the environment are interrelated!
In UK K Starmer doesn't know if he's married to a woman.,or if his mother is a woman?❤❤
Skeptics: communists killed millions of people
Larry Summers: kills 3 to 10 million russians (unicef numbers)
Skeptics: crickets
Larry Summers: gets cancelled for innocent remark on gender
Skeptics: Hey, protect this man!
... more institutions should read and learn about "mob mentality"
Thanks for sharing. 😉👌🏼
We all have contra sexual elements within our make up and these traditionally have been projected onto the opposite sex and this forms the basis on which relationships are built. In the past those who attempted to integrate rather than project these qualities have been seen as the mystics, seers and religious sages in society. Those who attempt the process of integration rather than projection will encounter many complex and often insoluble obstacles in their journey, so very few attempt it. The current fashion is for the deconstruction of existing roles and mores, a consequence of this is that there is little or no structure left in which contra sexual relationships can develop........ so good luck with that and ".....thanks for all the fish"
Irrational fear of androgyny is kind of adolescent problem. It seems to be that too many boomers are still pathologically immature. Especially when it comes to erotica. There has always been much more androgyny in the population than most people realized. It has merely been hidden by massive insecurity in popular fashion.
Biology should only be important to your doctor and you, it should be none of the state's business.
>"Biology should only be important to your doctor and you, it should be none of the state's business."
Biologcal males commit >98% of sex crimes, are physically stronger than 99% of same-aged females. While females make up >85% of victims of sex crimes. (And those stats persist, REGARDLESS of "gender"; In fact, data says that mtf/"transwomen" commt sex crimes at a significantly HIGHER rate than other men, rather than somehow adopting the female's much lower rates.
Bacon head - 100% of human on human crime is committed by other humans - so... no humans should be allowed to interact with other humans in an unsupervised place??? And isn't the person doing an assault, usually "physically stronger" than the person they are assaulting? Perhaps a strength and fight test before using a toilet?
Idk tho, if consensual sex is always allowed then cousins or even family members can have sex and not mean anythingg?
Don't the few people who are interested in that kind of thing do it already? Personally I find it icky, and there are concerns for birth defects and abusive power dynamics within families. But if you can find a situation where the only objection is a personal disgust it makes you wonder if it is worth objecting to.
Reprazent SM58!!!
Dr Shermer's son is 4 years old? I had no idea that he has a child this late.
Shermer should run for president, 'The Rational Party'
We're Adam and Eve non binary? Are bicycles gender fluid or nonbinary or am I just trsnsphobic?
Excellent discussion. Thank you.
But... I'm completely distracted by the microphone covering up the person's mouth while they're speaking. Maybe it's just me and I am unconsciously depending on some level of lip reading and (whole) facial expressions. Dr. Soh is not an animated speaker to begin with so this just amplifies the effect. Guess I'll launch my screensaver during the rest of the discussion.
Great talk, guys. Michael, looks like you're thinking about Stephen Pinker.
To be honest that Star Trek speech was pretty cringey. I watched it with a gay guy in the 90s and he couldn't sit through the whole thing 😬
I thought that Star Trek episode was really clever especially with the twist.
@@jeremywvarietyofviewpoints3104 Gene Roddenberry wanted to have a gay character but was told it was too controversial. They only got this episode
"Just because you're a feminine man, doesn't mean you're not a man."
But being a feminine man and being a masculine woman are very different. There is far more pressure on men not to be feminine than there is on women not to be masculine, and there are reasons for that. I guess one of the reasons is the assumption that a feminine man is less competent as a parent, and I think that is true.
The idea that their less competent is toxic masculinity I'm pretty sure
@@guineapiglady7802 A child needs a male and a female role model, and it's the job of the father to present the child with a male role model and of the mother to present it with a female role model, there is absolutely nothing toxic about that. You've been brainwashed by a toxic ideology, namely feminism.
I identify as a lesbian in a man's body
So if they don't let you have showers with other girls you are being discriminated against! Convenient!
I've identified that way for decades but have been afraid to admit it. Thank you William.
seriously many transgender women with penises also identify as this..
Debra Soh is Deepak Chopra of gender studies.
Is Debrah a cisgender straight woman that likes shirt skinny guys like me? Sure hope so
Interesting, I'm gay and actually agree with everything she says. It's hard to explain but as a kid I probably had no concept of gender yet I was usually doing girly stuff and associated mostly with girls rather than boys but I never wanted to BE a girl. I was just gay which I realized at 12-13.
Michael, you seem to be easily intimidated. You can survive the mob.
too many fancy terms for 'sick' people. ☹️
Not sure why Soh or Shermer are unable to comprehend that what they are characterizing as "masculine" (boy's toys, haircuts, clothes, etc). and what they are characterizing as "feminine" (girl's toys, haircuts, clothing, etc.) are defined by one's moment in history and culture, therefore a complete and total SOCIAL CONSTRUCT.
You're oversimplifying. Children of other ape species show a sex difference in how they play when they are given toys. Female children are more likely to engage in nurturing play across a species line in hominids. And male children in violent or tool-use play.
Women's hairstyles allow for display of great hair, which is, or used to be, an honest, costly signal of fitness. Women's clothes tend to restrict how much and what kinds of physical work one can perform, displaying status. Boys, when not given weapon toys, may even bite pieces off a cookie to make it resemble a weapon and use it in the same manner as a toy weapon.
When I studied sociology, I was often struck dumb by the inability of even my professors to see how everything psychological to say nothing of social rides on biology. Nothing we do contradicts our biology. It literally can't. Sometimes our biology allows us to do things that decrease our fitness, but it's still our biology expressing itself.
starts off the show by selling the Great Courses.
No, Merkel is NOT "one of the great leaders that country's ever had" (I guess you meant "one of the greatest", if the grammar in that sentence is supposed to make any sense). Merkel was responsible for the 2015 border disaster, and what she did was typical of people, both women and emasculated men, who are suffering from a perversion of the mother instinct: Just let two million people in, although we know we are unable to take care of them all. Here I really have the feeling that you're idealising her just because she's a woman (and because you're talking to a woman).
Debra Soh appears to be the latest figurehead and media darling, but she is no expert in this area despite marketing herself as such. Just look at her area of study, who she studied under and it clear she has adopted a position of pathology based on this rather than a scientific position of diversity found in nature. The problem is that she is under the illusion that she represents science her academic lineage is less-than-so.
Look up Helen Joyce......Trans
Excellent. "Neo creationist"". Yes.
I hope to talk with them one day 🙋🏻♀️😘❤️
I just looked at your channel and it seems I've found another hidden gem on RUclips! Subscribed 😁
@@dustincastellanos9138 indeed, I'm still in the shadows, thanks for the comment and sub😘❤️
Debra is a beautiful woman, I wish she wouldn’t stuff that unnecessary mic in her face.
@Joe Bloggs Funny you say that because when she was on Joe Rogan she did say that she was more masculine in her outlook and interests such as being into mixed martial arts. Somewhat surprised Rogan when she said that.
It is interesting that science is constantly redefining definitions in all subjects but gender seems to be the most caustic, immovable and sacred of all definitions to some. Redefining gender for some is taken up with a curious reaction that has religious and/or tribal connotations. It's very amusing seeing another 'doctor' try to use a hot button issue to launch themselves into the realm of celebrity for personal gain by breaking people down to statistics that does not reflect with any reality the truth of the experiences at hand.
@Bob Charles well, the term gender wasnt originally conflated with sex, but after some controversy started by people who didn't want to use the term "sex" to describe what was in their pants, they decided to use the term "gender" as an alternative. In the beginning, it was meant to be used to refer to the social construct of gender, but now the word has become conflated with "sex".
Debra Soh is a professional grifter, not a "doctor"
Are you saying her PhD is not valid?
@@lynnej.9357 her PhD in philosophy lol
@@johnspencefareal420 Nope. It's from York University in Toronto and it's in psychology.
@@lynnej.9357 hahaha as if that makes a difference, were it even true
@@johnspencefareal420 Oh. So it was never about that.
You cannot compare being critical to gay marriage to being critical to abolition of slavery, Michael, that's not serious. Marriage is an institution that was invented for one man and one woman her in the West, and there were reasons for that. The (traditional, you would have to say nowadays) family has always been and will always be the basis for a healthy, harmonious society and being against gay marriage is by no means irrational, quite on the contrary. The next step would be to be in favour of gay adoption rights, and as far as I know, all countries who give babies to adoption internationally have rejected adoption by gay couples in countries which gave gays that right, and there are good reasons for that rejection too. Your argument was cheap and dishonest.
this is literally what homophobes said about gay people a generation ago. lol so comical!
You’re comparing apples to oranges. You can’t even tell your fruits apart.
@@grahamstrouse1165 seems like a you problem
Debra Soh is Soh hot.
That's a pun.
But it's also my opinion. Dominate me with your intelligence doctor
First 😘❤️
These two are so ignorant about this topic...
This star trek story is so boring
Well skeptics your had try to shout down our CREATOR now they’re trying to shout down science . how you feel ? Let science explain this
🤷♂️🙄
Shermer cant figure out WTC 7 could only have been imploded. Credibility shot. His silence is tantamount to complicity.
So you're one of those stupid 9/11 "truthers", huh?
I'm Sohsexual lol
My preferred pronoun is NORMAL
Shermer, your hatred of the "far right" is obvious and despicable
"Cognitive creationism"? You haven't looked at creation science lately have you Mr. Shermer? You should because you may be surprised at what it disproves categorically about evolution & darwinism, and validates the Biblical account adeptly, logically and scientifically.
Yes, surprised to find that it disproves nothing.
@@tranquil2706 cheap words you speak.
@fandy final that makes you very unscientific and quite illogical. Wishing you a wake up call from the universe..