Similar levels of stress - should then be ruled against as well. Looks horrific anyway and the poor horse cannot see where it is going. Thank you for addressing this welfare issue and translating into English.
I used to ride a GP horse and I had to get him to trot around the arena for 10 minutes with his head down and stretching over his back before I was allowed to pick him up into an outline. The picture at 0:35 was exactly how I used to have him, with a very soft contact. The biggest giveaway is the area just behind the saddle. A horse that's had its head pulled in will be dipped and weak there. A horse that's been trained correctly will look straight. And that's just one way of looking at it. There are signs all over the horses body that's its been cruely abused using rollkur.
When you can't see the front hair or the ears, there is clearly a problem. I never let my horses put their head like that! I always put their head up, in a natural way! This is heartbreaking that somes peoples are doing that...😢
How can everything I've been taught as a child about the horse's head position be thrown out the window in high level dressage? What's the benefit to riding a horse with the head so far behind the vertical that it's almost biting its own chest?
Check out Frederic pignon with his amazing horse shows and watch the horses natural body movement, location of the chest and head as they perform all kinds of exercises when they round their necks , when they lift their heads, when they brig them down. Brings a lot of perspective and insight of what the horse does on its own when freely moving.
I'm sorry but I don't see you talking about le Rollkur. You're only talking about LDR. The only difference you say between them is that Rollkur is forced and ldr is not. I'm french, so maybe our terms are somehow differents : When we say a horse is "round", it means that the horse is putting itself in a better position to support the weight of its rider by lowering slightly their head and putting their noses almost at the vertical. That way, the muscles of its back are stretched and worked in way that will prevent most typical problems comming by the fact we are on its back. Also, there must not be any resistance comming either form the horse's mouth and the rider's hands. Horses that are "round" and "posed" are more responsives, more calm and we feel the movement of their posteriors moving under them and pushing. However, dressage for horses is like gymnastic to us, they need at first to put somme effort, especially if they have bad postures or habits from the start (doesn't mean we have to be brutal about it). The photos you showed of ldr isn't what we call being "round", so I'm a little lost about what the Federation is calling "round" and "posed" for a horse. The first one where you said that the horses were ridden "freely" were what we call "round" and "posed". Does my discription fit what you call "correct ridding" ? I kinda want to be sure all I have learned with dedication so far isn't animal abuse. Your scientific explications are still very interesting despite my confusion (but then I'm not really fluent in english).
I think it's about the terms. The video explains that there is a technical difference between rollkur (not allowed by the FEI) and LDR (allowed for short periods), but that neither is particularly healthy for he horse. The description you give of "round" and "posed" is what the video is describing as correct. Your English seems to be excellent - but technical terms are always tricky! :-)
@@sunnyandbigsy Thank you very much ! I'm relived that I wasn't torturing the horses. One of the instructors would say : "if your posture is correct, your hands stady and your aids insistant on engagement, your horse will be on your hand by himself". "Être sur la main" is another term we use to say that the horse is responsive to work and we are doing a good job.
@@sunnyandbigsy But, I realised that ldr and "sur la main" can be easyly confused by raiders when on the horse and working by themselves. Because, sometimes, the horse is on a "mood" and put himself in a stressing situation, and it's easy to fall in the trap I think.
@@crayontotallyen4616 In English, I think the equivalent phrase for "sur la main" is "on the aids". (Je connais un petit peu francais si this helps me understand what you mean.) The horse should be listening to your seat, legs, and hands and ready for your instructions. From my view, in recent years a trend has started in US riding where people focus on how things look ("the face must be vertical) without understanding the reasons behind this "look". This video explains things very well. We are not trying to achieve a horse with a perfectly straight face. We are trying to teach the horse to bring his hind quarters under him and to relax/work through his back. This will allow his shoulders will lift, open, and move more freely. The vertical face position results from all of these things. Some people just see "jerk his face straight and I will win a ribbon" unfortunately.
I think there is an incorrect definition of terms here, because the description of LDR matches rollkur exactly, when in reality they are quite a bit different. Maybe some people practice rollkur but claim that it's LDR to get away with it. My definition of LDR is like the pictures at 2:33 and 2:52, halfway between a stretchy trot and a collected trot. The horse may sometimes be slightly btv because the neck is lower, and that is also somewhat dependent on conformation. Andalusians, for example, will almost always look btv when working in a lower frame. For me, the difference between LDR and rollkur is 1) rollkur uses force, while LDR is the horse freely reaching into soft contact, and 2) the neck in rollkur is shortened and restricted, while in LDR the neck is longer and unrestricted. I think that always working in upright collection can be just as bad as always working in the longer, lower frame. I think it depends on the horse as an individual, and using one or the other all the time is not ideal. However, I think that rather than blanketly condemning one or the other there should be more freedom given to the trainer as they work out what is best for their horse as an individual. Obviously, this does not include rollkur, as the definition includes "achieved by aggressive force."
Similar levels of stress - should then be ruled against as well. Looks horrific anyway and the poor horse cannot see where it is going. Thank you for addressing this welfare issue and translating into English.
I used to ride a GP horse and I had to get him to trot around the arena for 10 minutes with his head down and stretching over his back before I was allowed to pick him up into an outline. The picture at 0:35 was exactly how I used to have him, with a very soft contact.
The biggest giveaway is the area just behind the saddle. A horse that's had its head pulled in will be dipped and weak there. A horse that's been trained correctly will look straight. And that's just one way of looking at it. There are signs all over the horses body that's its been cruely abused using rollkur.
Excellent video, thank you for posting! Why would anyone do that to their horse? It's disgusting and abusive!
I like a comfortable horse, I like him to carry his head how he wants to and is relaxed and happy!
When you can't see the front hair or the ears, there is clearly a problem. I never let my horses put their head like that! I always put their head up, in a natural way! This is heartbreaking that somes peoples are doing that...😢
Thanks for posting this educational video. It's good news for dressage horses if applied,
Not just dressage horses, but western show horses too!
@@plumbfia5436 Exactly right! They have their heads tucked down and in, and some do not do a true three-beat canter. It looks awful.
Every equestrian should see this!
The eyes on the horse say it all! Learned helplessness. So so sad.
How can everything I've been taught as a child about the horse's head position be thrown out the window in high level dressage?
What's the benefit to riding a horse with the head so far behind the vertical that it's almost biting its own chest?
Very informative! We can only hope that some massive changes are made by the FEI to far better horse welfare!
In fact there is no difference between the two of them. LDR was just created to make Rollkur sound less disgusting.
Check out Frederic pignon with his amazing horse shows and watch the horses natural body movement, location of the chest and head as they perform all kinds of exercises when they round their necks , when they lift their heads, when they brig them down. Brings a lot of perspective and insight of what the horse does on its own when freely moving.
Rolkur should not be allowed . Full stop.
There is no difference between Rollkur and LDR. Its the same abusive shit
I'm sorry but I don't see you talking about le Rollkur. You're only talking about LDR. The only difference you say between them is that Rollkur is forced and ldr is not. I'm french, so maybe our terms are somehow differents : When we say a horse is "round", it means that the horse is putting itself in a better position to support the weight of its rider by lowering slightly their head and putting their noses almost at the vertical. That way, the muscles of its back are stretched and worked in way that will prevent most typical problems comming by the fact we are on its back. Also, there must not be any resistance comming either form the horse's mouth and the rider's hands. Horses that are "round" and "posed" are more responsives, more calm and we feel the movement of their posteriors moving under them and pushing. However, dressage for horses is like gymnastic to us, they need at first to put somme effort, especially if they have bad postures or habits from the start (doesn't mean we have to be brutal about it). The photos you showed of ldr isn't what we call being "round", so I'm a little lost about what the Federation is calling "round" and "posed" for a horse. The first one where you said that the horses were ridden "freely" were what we call "round" and "posed". Does my discription fit what you call "correct ridding" ? I kinda want to be sure all I have learned with dedication so far isn't animal abuse. Your scientific explications are still very interesting despite my confusion (but then I'm not really fluent in english).
I think it's about the terms. The video explains that there is a technical difference between rollkur (not allowed by the FEI) and LDR (allowed for short periods), but that neither is particularly healthy for he horse. The description you give of "round" and "posed" is what the video is describing as correct. Your English seems to be excellent - but technical terms are always tricky! :-)
@@sunnyandbigsy Thank you very much ! I'm relived that I wasn't torturing the horses. One of the instructors would say : "if your posture is correct, your hands stady and your aids insistant on engagement, your horse will be on your hand by himself". "Être sur la main" is another term we use to say that the horse is responsive to work and we are doing a good job.
@@sunnyandbigsy But, I realised that ldr and "sur la main" can be easyly confused by raiders when on the horse and working by themselves. Because, sometimes, the horse is on a "mood" and put himself in a stressing situation, and it's easy to fall in the trap I think.
@@crayontotallyen4616 In English, I think the equivalent phrase for "sur la main" is "on the aids". (Je connais un petit peu francais si this helps me understand what you mean.) The horse should be listening to your seat, legs, and hands and ready for your instructions.
From my view, in recent years a trend has started in US riding where people focus on how things look ("the face must be vertical) without understanding the reasons behind this "look". This video explains things very well. We are not trying to achieve a horse with a perfectly straight face. We are trying to teach the horse to bring his hind quarters under him and to relax/work through his back. This will allow his shoulders will lift, open, and move more freely. The vertical face position results from all of these things. Some people just see "jerk his face straight and I will win a ribbon" unfortunately.
I think there is an incorrect definition of terms here, because the description of LDR matches rollkur exactly, when in reality they are quite a bit different. Maybe some people practice rollkur but claim that it's LDR to get away with it.
My definition of LDR is like the pictures at 2:33 and 2:52, halfway between a stretchy trot and a collected trot. The horse may sometimes be slightly btv because the neck is lower, and that is also somewhat dependent on conformation. Andalusians, for example, will almost always look btv when working in a lower frame.
For me, the difference between LDR and rollkur is 1) rollkur uses force, while LDR is the horse freely reaching into soft contact, and 2) the neck in rollkur is shortened and restricted, while in LDR the neck is longer and unrestricted.
I think that always working in upright collection can be just as bad as always working in the longer, lower frame. I think it depends on the horse as an individual, and using one or the other all the time is not ideal. However, I think that rather than blanketly condemning one or the other there should be more freedom given to the trainer as they work out what is best for their horse as an individual. Obviously, this does not include rollkur, as the definition includes "achieved by aggressive force."