Very cool idea. I've wanted to check out plan9 for a while, and have vague dreams about setting up my own IoT at home without the I . . . This might be just the thing
Me too. I am on my first steps on my plan9 voyage .. very interesting. B.t.w. Chat gpt recommend me to take a look at plan9 when i was asking what is the most strange thing to install on an empty machine standing here .
@fmu7679 I google Hurd, Plan9 and some other topics periodically, just to know what's going on. Also I want to get started, but I'm not sure what should I pick them for
Wow. This is cool. I need to learn to write some code. The problem is i feel more like a sysadmin than i am a programmer. I noticed that i have no patience for programming. But for some strange reason i am fascinated by the haskell programming language.
I have tried p9 10 years ago - didnt get along with all that plumbing and clicking but only thanks to this video and italian hack pronounciation i realized what acme really means :) ack-me! hack me!
"longer rant video about Linux" - always welcome :) I never cease to be amazed how people take that mad complexity of modern Linux distros inner workings for granted and praise it's simplicity...
@@adventuresin9 I guess this more related to M$ and other mega corps have seat board on Linux foundation, I agree with you Linux still useful for running server, it Desktop use case ruined long time ago.
@@adventuresin9 I started getting my impression of Linux and FOSS a decade after that. It took some time to realize that there were no longer those people nor those ideas that I read about on old forum threads and watched in "Revolution OS" movie...
@@مقاطعمترجمة-ش8ثtbf linux was never "great" for desktop in the first place... Nowadays we atleast have some standards and infrastructure to build upon, instead of everyone inventing their own set of wheels, that are perpetually broken by some dude half across the globe from you due to a minor change, granted they are waaaay overengineered in more than one place(like this whole dbus thing, basically most of the freedesktop protocols, wayland, systemd, etc. even though most of them have neat ideas in mind the actual standarts and way of doing things is just beyond awfull), but they are there, they are open and they free. Which is a lot more than i can say about anything that is or was a desktop. I would love a new revitalised modern GNU, i would like the rewamp of the kernel, i would like better init system, i would like the new rewamp of mesa, i would love a better wayland, but alas no one including me thinks that any of this actually worth the time and effort it would take to do. Well more like some brave souls do, but i am certainly not one of them at this moment.
I always liked the idea of Plan9, especially as most of my computers are low power netbooks or raspberry pis. The idea of combining resources or at least borrowing them from my gaming PC sounds pretty cool. It's all a bit beyond my skill level, though, and isn't really fit for my purposes but it's cool AF anyway. Linux's monolithic kernel does sometimes seem like a bit much. But again compiling my own leaner kernel for my devices is way beyond me haha I couldn't even build up an Antix-core install to have X11 😅 I could not for the life of me get it to work
incredible video. not uncommon to see on youtube people trying to be different just for the sake of it but you clearly outlined your usecases without any fluff. might try 9front on a vm later on :) also was dumbfounded on how small your code is, it really shows how bloated modern stacks are.
New sub who stumbled in via random RUclips recommendation. Cool to see Plan 9 in actual use. In your bulb example, do you just change the (for example) dimming property value in the file to make the bulb change light intensity?
@@adventuresin9 Cool, and good to know. Will check out the rest in due course. As someone who appreciates clean and simple implementations, 9 Front looks intriguing.
I bought a small risc-v board, a "Mango Pi" which is single core and the size of a Raspberry Pi zero. It is on the list of things to port 9Front to, and some work has already been done on compilers and libraries. The risc-v ecosystem is a rapidly evolving space right now, so some Plan 9 developers are taking a wait and see approach, to see what becomes standardized.
Please tell, can you run 9Front on RV32IMAFC machine without MMU with 512K SRAM ? I'm playing with my own soft-core (soft-SoC), it has FastEthernet and some other low speed periphs. Now looking for an OS for this hardware.
Plan9 and 9Front wont run on systems with no MMU. There was another project call "Inferno" which took the Plan9 ideas and was designed to run on embedded systems. However, development stopped on it mostly, and I do not think they have a risc-v kernel for it. There are other projects to implement simple 9P on MCU, search for "NinePea".
Yes, I know about Inferno, been trying it somewhere in 1999 on PC. Wikipedia says it was last released nine years ago and there's no RISC-V port. Will take a look on NinePea. Thanks. But, how much RAM 9Front needs to run ? I'm working on adding MMU. :)
I might put it up again, or redo it. But between the holiday distractions, and working on other videos, I don't want to be managing flame war material at the moment.
@@adventuresin9 'Holy war’ or something?) I understand... and I see that it was uploaded 10 days ago (in the web archive), but it only popped up in my 'related' recently. I had planned to watch it later, but upon checking, I noticed it had been deleted. That caught my attention and led me to your channel. I even got intrigued by the topic of an alternative branch of OS development. Though, I haven’t delved deeply into the subject yet. Honestly... I don’t take such videos too seriously-more like something funny or just fun to explore. But in your case, it’s a bit different because I thought you were a Linux user, and it turns out it’s a completely different OS I’d never even heard of. And the concept got me interested. So, I’ll be looking out if you decide to re-upload. ;)
@@adventuresin9 I too was looking for that video when the algorithm suggested it. I only knew of Plan9 from an article on The Register by Liam Proven but have found your channel fascinating. I definitely get that in this age you don't want to babysit the comments but if you do it, I can see that Linux would benefit from your knowledge and critique even if they're not ready to hear it.
Just checked out that article you mentioned. A very fair take on Plan9 and 9Front. The bit at the end about running little VM's is one I've heard from other people too. Given how large and complicated modern web browsers are, and that web browsers are now effectively an OS, it would make sense to "port" one over as a thing in a VM.
Hey man, just wanted to comment about the vid you removed. I think you should absolutely flesh out your argument and repost it. I really enjoyed spectating the back and forth on why/why not Linux is fit for use in current year. I know there were flame wars but the intellectual argument being made from both sides was enthralling to watch, and I was introduced to some OSes I'd never even heard of (reimplementing OS/2 on L4 is awesome even tho I have no use for it). I prefer Arch (btw) on my systems but I totally understand the other side of the argument and don't really believe there's one "right" answer, at the end of the day no OS will be one size fits all, and you do you. I just hope you didn't feel shamed into pulling it down, it's a convo worth having imo.
Hell, add another 20-30 minutes comparing and contrasting concrete examples of shit you can do with 9Front that you couldn't with Linux. I feel like there was definitely some substance missing from your argument but it sounds like with a little work you can come up with something both intellectually honest and educational for those coming in who use Linux but not 9Front.
I might go back down that direction at some point. But I enjoy building up more than tearing down. While that video did have mostly positive reviews, I don't want the distraction of dealing with flame wars and corrections while I'm already in the middle of putting together 3 other videos that I think are much higher quality and more informative.
Good to know that someone had particle use case of Plan 9, I thought it still experiences project, but I really like it minimalistic principle as someone who don't like bloatware, I'm still using ArchLinux on my laptop, but I'm thinking using other OS's on high-end laptops I had, as a guy his first computer only had 128MB of RAM I'm frustrated that some Gnu/Linux DE consumes by itself 1.5GB of RAM that's insane, Linux for desktop weren't meant to bloated this way, it's ruining user experience for no real visual improvement.
Thanks for the interesting explanation of how you use Plan9 but sadly for someone competent enough to write their own i2c drivers you make the common mistake of conflating Linux distributions with the Linux kernel. "Linux" is just the kernel, it's used in so many eays/places today that continuing to conflate "traditional" distros with "Linux" makes absolutely no sense at all. Android didn't "strip down" anything, they simply used the Linux kernel and built on top if it just as intended. They wrote their own libc for example, but that has nothing to do with the kernel, just as different distros use different libcs.
To go along with the "boomer" aspect, there is a bit of "pulling up the ladder behind you" going on. What started as a light weight and flexible system for experimenting later became an overly complex and aimed and promoting vendor lock-in and forced obsolescence.
@adventuresin9 I'm not even that experienced and I have already discovered why there is an appeal in something like FreeBSD where every "system level" (I know that's a noob term) dependency is lock-stepped from the get-go. Though, I haven't tried a BSD or Plan9 yet. I have realized I should invest some time in learning more about these in case they could promise better dependency management. A lot of Linux fans couldn't even comprehend horrors like a franken-ubuntu (v18 kernel, v20 filesystem, v16 bootloader) , and they would defecate themselves at the thought of their livelihood depending on delivering bugfixes to such an abomination. Linux can be just as wretched as Windows if abused. The reality is there are good and bad systems and you can make an abomination or Elysian field in any platform.
@@adventuresin9 He was talking about you. But jokes on me, I use openVMS to run Quake servers. And I've got a Winlink station on a Cuban submarine running RedStar OS to send emails to the next galaxy. Checkmate.
Don't yet mastered Unix and it seems is already obsolete. I also feel we will have something radically different from all previous OS's if A.I. keeps evolving...
I always thought it was cool how Plan9 could "borrow" devices from other physical hardware over a network.
I honestly have no idea what you're doing but I love it
I often wonder what I'm doing myself.
it was a Bell Laps operating system based on unix concepts, Never heard of it until this video.
not a docker container in sight, only plan 9 to be found. heroic.
No need for containers if your operating system supports process namespaces from the start.
8:23 Bob Metcalfe once famously described Windows as “a buggy set of device drivers”: Linux is a free set of buggy device drivers.
god, seeing this just slapped 2009 right across my face, I had a similar homelab at that era, and was screwing around with plan9
That code is gorgeous 😍
Very cool idea. I've wanted to check out plan9 for a while, and have vague dreams about setting up my own IoT at home without the I . . . This might be just the thing
Cool, found your channel by casually looking for Plan9.
Me too. I am on my first steps on my plan9 voyage .. very interesting. B.t.w. Chat gpt recommend me to take a look at plan9 when i was asking what is the most strange thing to install on an empty machine standing here .
One does not casually look for Plan9. 😂
@fmu7679 I google Hurd, Plan9 and some other topics periodically, just to know what's going on. Also I want to get started, but I'm not sure what should I pick them for
Will be using your videos while taking an embedded course using plan9
Great job explaining not just what you use it for, but an understanding of who Plan 9 may or may not be for. :)
That "#2 Dad" coffee mug made me giggle
Wow. This is cool. I need to learn to write some code. The problem is i feel more like a sysadmin than i am a programmer. I noticed that i have no patience for programming. But for some strange reason i am fascinated by the haskell programming language.
cool. I haven't looked at plan9 in years. I'll check out the nine-front. THX!
I have tried p9 10 years ago - didnt get along with all that plumbing and clicking but only thanks to this video and italian hack pronounciation i realized what acme really means :) ack-me! hack me!
"longer rant video about Linux" - always welcome :) I never cease to be amazed how people take that mad complexity of modern Linux distros inner workings for granted and praise it's simplicity...
not sure if it will fit the theme of this channel though
I first used used Linux back in the late 1990's. The system and the people working on it has changed a lot since then.
@@adventuresin9 I guess this more related to M$ and other mega corps have seat board on Linux foundation, I agree with you Linux still useful for running server, it Desktop use case ruined long time ago.
@@adventuresin9 I started getting my impression of Linux and FOSS a decade after that. It took some time to realize that there were no longer those people nor those ideas that I read about on old forum threads and watched in "Revolution OS" movie...
@@مقاطعمترجمة-ش8ثtbf linux was never "great" for desktop in the first place... Nowadays we atleast have some standards and infrastructure to build upon, instead of everyone inventing their own set of wheels, that are perpetually broken by some dude half across the globe from you due to a minor change, granted they are waaaay overengineered in more than one place(like this whole dbus thing, basically most of the freedesktop protocols, wayland, systemd, etc. even though most of them have neat ideas in mind the actual standarts and way of doing things is just beyond awfull), but they are there, they are open and they free. Which is a lot more than i can say about anything that is or was a desktop. I would love a new revitalised modern GNU, i would like the rewamp of the kernel, i would like better init system, i would like the new rewamp of mesa, i would love a better wayland, but alas no one including me thinks that any of this actually worth the time and effort it would take to do. Well more like some brave souls do, but i am certainly not one of them at this moment.
i hadn't heard of plan9 before, seems cool af
I always liked the idea of Plan9, especially as most of my computers are low power netbooks or raspberry pis. The idea of combining resources or at least borrowing them from my gaming PC sounds pretty cool. It's all a bit beyond my skill level, though, and isn't really fit for my purposes but it's cool AF anyway. Linux's monolithic kernel does sometimes seem like a bit much. But again compiling my own leaner kernel for my devices is way beyond me haha
I couldn't even build up an Antix-core install to have X11 😅 I could not for the life of me get it to work
incredible video. not uncommon to see on youtube people trying to be different just for the sake of it but you clearly outlined your usecases without any fluff. might try 9front on a vm later on :)
also was dumbfounded on how small your code is, it really shows how bloated modern stacks are.
That was pretty cool. I've always wanted to use Acme, but it does so much that I can barely use it for the simple things.
Just like Unix has the "vi vs emacs", the Plan9 world has "sam vs acme". Maybe you are just a sam person?
Straightforward - thanks sir!
Your desk is so hacker!
wizard school is now in session
Dude, you're a wizard.
if you mean wizard as in someone who researches arcane mystical things and applies them to modern problems, then yes
"Hello, Bomb? Are you with me?"
:)
New sub who stumbled in via random RUclips recommendation. Cool to see Plan 9 in actual use. In your bulb example, do you just change the (for example) dimming property value in the file to make the bulb change light intensity?
Yup, i echo 'dimming=50' into the bulb file, and it sends the command to the bulb to dim to value 50.
@@adventuresin9 Cool, and good to know. Will check out the rest in due course. As someone who appreciates clean and simple implementations, 9 Front looks intriguing.
I appreciate all your videos. Thank you. BTW do you run any risc-v?
I bought a small risc-v board, a "Mango Pi" which is single core and the size of a Raspberry Pi zero. It is on the list of things to port 9Front to, and some work has already been done on compilers and libraries. The risc-v ecosystem is a rapidly evolving space right now, so some Plan 9 developers are taking a wait and see approach, to see what becomes standardized.
Here is a video about some of the progress and troubles so far ruclips.net/video/EOg6UzSss2A/видео.html
i dont get it but your place/setup looks cool
When I hear ‘Plan 9’, my mental response is ‘From outer space’. Sorry.
I'm in the same boat. It's a fun B-film.
@ B film ? You are a generous person. Well, it is the Christmas season.
That's what the name is meant to reference
Please tell, can you run 9Front on RV32IMAFC machine without MMU with 512K SRAM ? I'm playing with my own soft-core (soft-SoC), it has FastEthernet and some other low speed periphs. Now looking for an OS for this hardware.
Plan9 and 9Front wont run on systems with no MMU. There was another project call "Inferno" which took the Plan9 ideas and was designed to run on embedded systems. However, development stopped on it mostly, and I do not think they have a risc-v kernel for it. There are other projects to implement simple 9P on MCU, search for "NinePea".
Yes, I know about Inferno, been trying it somewhere in 1999 on PC. Wikipedia says it was last released nine years ago and there's no RISC-V port. Will take a look on NinePea. Thanks. But, how much RAM 9Front needs to run ? I'm working on adding MMU. :)
I have run 9front on systems with 64MB of ram, but without graphics. A frame buffer will need some space if it runs it's own display.
Plan 9 From Outer Space! 😂
Where is a video named "Why I don't use Linux for my projects anymore"?
I wanted to watch it!
I might put it up again, or redo it. But between the holiday distractions, and working on other videos, I don't want to be managing flame war material at the moment.
@@adventuresin9 'Holy war’ or something?)
I understand... and I see that it was uploaded 10 days ago (in the web archive), but it only popped up in my 'related' recently. I had planned to watch it later, but upon checking, I noticed it had been deleted. That caught my attention and led me to your channel. I even got intrigued by the topic of an alternative branch of OS development. Though, I haven’t delved deeply into the subject yet.
Honestly... I don’t take such videos too seriously-more like something funny or just fun to explore. But in your case, it’s a bit different because I thought you were a Linux user, and it turns out it’s a completely different OS I’d never even heard of. And the concept got me interested.
So, I’ll be looking out if you decide to re-upload. ;)
@@adventuresin9 I too was looking for that video when the algorithm suggested it. I only knew of Plan9 from an article on The Register by Liam Proven but have found your channel fascinating. I definitely get that in this age you don't want to babysit the comments but if you do it, I can see that Linux would benefit from your knowledge and critique even if they're not ready to hear it.
Just checked out that article you mentioned. A very fair take on Plan9 and 9Front. The bit at the end about running little VM's is one I've heard from other people too. Given how large and complicated modern web browsers are, and that web browsers are now effectively an OS, it would make sense to "port" one over as a thing in a VM.
Hey man, just wanted to comment about the vid you removed. I think you should absolutely flesh out your argument and repost it. I really enjoyed spectating the back and forth on why/why not Linux is fit for use in current year.
I know there were flame wars but the intellectual argument being made from both sides was enthralling to watch, and I was introduced to some OSes I'd never even heard of (reimplementing OS/2 on L4 is awesome even tho I have no use for it).
I prefer Arch (btw) on my systems but I totally understand the other side of the argument and don't really believe there's one "right" answer, at the end of the day no OS will be one size fits all, and you do you. I just hope you didn't feel shamed into pulling it down, it's a convo worth having imo.
Hell, add another 20-30 minutes comparing and contrasting concrete examples of shit you can do with 9Front that you couldn't with Linux. I feel like there was definitely some substance missing from your argument but it sounds like with a little work you can come up with something both intellectually honest and educational for those coming in who use Linux but not 9Front.
I might go back down that direction at some point. But I enjoy building up more than tearing down. While that video did have mostly positive reviews, I don't want the distraction of dealing with flame wars and corrections while I'm already in the middle of putting together 3 other videos that I think are much higher quality and more informative.
Good to know that someone had particle use case of Plan 9, I thought it still experiences project, but I really like it minimalistic principle as someone who don't like bloatware, I'm still using ArchLinux on my laptop, but I'm thinking using other OS's on high-end laptops I had, as a guy his first computer only had 128MB of RAM I'm frustrated that some Gnu/Linux DE consumes by itself 1.5GB of RAM that's insane, Linux for desktop weren't meant to bloated this way, it's ruining user experience for no real visual improvement.
I used Linux on similar systems in the past, and they ran fine. Now, I open a basic text editor, like xed, and it takes 20MB just to start.
you inspired me to get a raspberry pi and try out plan9. is it possible to boot plan9 from an nvme ssd? i bought a hat for it.
I haven't tried that. I still have the old 3B's.
Cool stuff. Linux has definitely gotten more complicated over the last 30 years. Don't even get me started on the abomination that is systemd.
Interesting....but the name "Plan9" sounds like a birth control pill. heheeh LOL :-)
Gopher was the pinnacle :)
I honestly think the web was a mistake. Hyperlinked text is handy, but at what cost?
Thanks for the interesting explanation of how you use Plan9 but sadly for someone competent enough to write their own i2c drivers you make the common mistake of conflating Linux distributions with the Linux kernel. "Linux" is just the kernel, it's used in so many eays/places today that continuing to conflate "traditional" distros with "Linux" makes absolutely no sense at all.
Android didn't "strip down" anything, they simply used the Linux kernel and built on top if it just as intended. They wrote their own libc for example, but that has nothing to do with the kernel, just as different distros use different libcs.
Its getting so tough out there for loonix nerds to be quirky and special that they're now starting to use obsolete boomerware
To go along with the "boomer" aspect, there is a bit of "pulling up the ladder behind you" going on. What started as a light weight and flexible system for experimenting later became an overly complex and aimed and promoting vendor lock-in and forced obsolescence.
@adventuresin9 I'm not even that experienced and I have already discovered why there is an appeal in something like FreeBSD where every "system level" (I know that's a noob term) dependency is lock-stepped from the get-go. Though, I haven't tried a BSD or Plan9 yet. I have realized I should invest some time in learning more about these in case they could promise better dependency management.
A lot of Linux fans couldn't even comprehend horrors like a franken-ubuntu (v18 kernel, v20 filesystem, v16 bootloader) , and they would defecate themselves at the thought of their livelihood depending on delivering bugfixes to such an abomination.
Linux can be just as wretched as Windows if abused. The reality is there are good and bad systems and you can make an abomination or Elysian field in any platform.
@@adventuresin9 He was talking about you. But jokes on me, I use openVMS to run Quake servers. And I've got a Winlink station on a Cuban submarine running RedStar OS to send emails to the next galaxy. Checkmate.
Don't yet mastered Unix and it seems is already obsolete. I also feel we will have something radically different from all previous OS's if A.I. keeps evolving...