24:10 A quick clarification here: the “essential expositional closure” is not, strictly speaking, the closing _section_ of an exposition in the Hepokoski/Darcy view-rather, it is the first strong cadence into the secondary key, which almost always happens towards the end of a movement. Note how Mozart is clearly _in_ C Major throughout the second half of the exposition, but doesn’t do a strong V-I cadence in C Major until the last section.
57:00 About Boulez and sonata, I think we have here a recurring pattern in early Boulez's works. Between 1945 and 1946, Boulez studied with Leibowitz the twelve-tone technique. He was fascinated by this technique but, at the same time, he was critical about Leibowitz approach of it that he found to rigid and academic. He consequently composed 12 Notations for piano. It was his first attempt in twelve-tone technique and in this work, we can feel the enthusiasm of Boulez for this new technique in the way explores all the expressive possibilities of it. But we also have here an ensemble of 12 pieces of 12 measures, all based on the same tone row of 12 notes. In this repetition of the number 12, there is a kind of satire of Leibowitz's academism and his obsession for the number 12. Among Boulez's first works, a lot of them relied on traditionnal fixed form : Prélude, toccata et scherzo (1944-1945, unpublished), Thème et variations for piano, left hand (1945, unpublished), Sonatine for flute and piano (1945), Symphonie concertante for piano and orchestra (1947, lost), the 2 first Piano sonatas (1946 and 1948)... The 2nd piano is especially interesting. It is apparently a traditionnal 4-movements sonata : first movement in sonata form, slow movement in variation form, scherzo with 3 trios, and introduction, fugue and final as the last movement. But on the other hand, Boulez "corrupts" these traditionnal forms: the thematic and tonal opposition in the first movement is replaced by an opposition between 2 "motivic" ideas, the fugue hasn't an melodic subject but a rythmic one etc... By doing this, Boulez destroys the traditional forms from the inside. After this works, appart from the 3rd piano sonata (which hasn't a traditional structure at all), he no more made use of a traditional form. After the failure of Polyphonie X in 1951, Boulez began to call integral serialism into question. He thought that serialism had gone too far. It became too rigid and restrained the composers creativity. But before giving up it, he composed a last work : the first book of Structures for 2 pianos. In this work, he pushed the principle of integral serialism the farthest he has ever done. But on the other hand, it is a kind of a reductio ad absurdum to show it was a dead end. As Boulez said it later, by desiring too much controlling all parameters, we paradoxically produce a music that sounds as chaotic as if there was no control at all. After this, Boulez will try in Le Marteau sans maître to develop a less rigid system which gives more place to creativity. I have personnally an explanation for all of this: in spite of his reputation of iconoclast, Boulez had a strong sense of the history. He was conscious to be the product of a musical tradition. So when an element of this tradition that had an important place in his personal development came to bother him, he couldn't symply get ride of it. He had to react to it by a work in order to bring an end to it before being able to go ahead. Hence the necessity for him to destroy the old forms from the inside in his 2nd piano sonata before dropping them, or to push integral serialism to its limit in Structures before adopting a less rigid system. It isn't only a provocation, but also a personal necessity in his own personal evolution. I don't know how much my analyse is right but it is coherent with what I know about Boulez.
This channel is an absolute gem. As someone who came from a pop/rock background and that is now studying a bachelor in chamber music performance, your videos have been a great resource for learning how to approach classical music as an outsider. Thank you! :)
One mention that I'd like to make is Charles Rosen with his book 'Sonata Forms'. My music theory professor has been using it for many years now. It provides a profound historical overview on the development of the sonata style as well as explaining where the term sonata derived from and why the classical sonata form which is commonly taught is not really suitable and should be opened. I really like it. Great video, greetings from Germany :)
Your videos are awesome, thank you so much for all the hard work you put into this. I very much appreciate this free lesson, very kind and generous of you to provide
My personal favorite sonatas + recommended recordings (listed alphabetically by composer): Dukas - Piano Sonata in Eb Minor - (Hamelin/Hyperion) Feinberg - Piano Sonata #4 in Eb Minor, Op.6 - (Hamein/Hyperion) Feinberg - Piano Sonata #6 in B Minor, Op.13 - (Hamelin/Hyperion) Godowsky - Piano Sonata in E Minor - (Aleksander/PPR) Rachmaninov - Piano Sonata #2 in Bb Minor, Op.36 - (Osborne/Hyperion) Scriabin - Fantaisie, Op.28 - (Hamelin/Hyperion) Scriabin - Piano Sonata #4 in F# Major, Op.30 - (Hough/Hyperion) Sorabji - Piano Sonata #1, KSS.20 - (Hamelin/Altarus) Shostakovich - Piano Sonata #1, Op.12 - (Gugnin/Hyperion) Szymanowski - Piano Sonata #2 in A Major, Op.21 - (Debargue/Sony)
Thanks for the effort in this video. You’ve explained many things that I’ve wondered about sonata form and it’s history and where it went after Beethoven. I discovered classical music entirely through Beethovens piano sonatas, and branch out from there. After a while the only way I understood what happened to the sonata was that simply composers were intimidated by what Beethoven did, and did not want to be compared to him. I thought it was a shame because the sonata form or principle (I like that term better) is in my mind the ideal framework for expressing the hero’s journey through sound. I would add to the definition that the sonata principle mirrors the hero’s journey. The first movement in sonata form does this explicitly, and the total sonata in all of its movements combined continue the hero’s journey in different ways. So a sonata is like a fractal of hero’s journeys. It’s a shame that more musicians and composers don’t consider this an opportunity to create a whole new world of expression. I believe this principle can establish totally original “journeys” from every human that “properly” utilizes it. There’s an objective quality to it, in that absolute music, that has been forgotten, and I’ve always attributed it to the intimidation of climbing that mountain Beethoven conquered. The ones to attempt it were like Brahms and Schubert and Liszt and of course some others, but when you fast forward to today it’s clear to see that this idea has been totally forgotten by music artists. I can only guess that the reason is due to its sheer difficulty in achieving it. Thanks again for your video. Cheers
I enjoy your channel a lot and you help me understand many musical concepts as well. I like your Great Composers as well. I was wondering if you would do one on Benjamin Britten or Luigi Nono? I would love to learn more about them.
I await each new video with expectation. This is one of the best - tough going at times but well worth the effort. PS Is the 1st movement of your symphony the only one recorded so far? I'm intrigued to hear the rest of it.
22:39 Is that a bit of Phrygian spice (re: Ab note) in the Medial Caesura? If so, is that part of the relish & celebration? Great video! I'm somewhat familiar with the Sonata form but am learning a lot from this.
I often wonder if our musical tradition will cycle back to composers writing in accepted and regular forms. It feels like we’re in an era of experimentation, trying to find something that will stick.
In order for this to happen, the contexts and purposes of new music may need to diversify. Right now there's a kind of arbitrariness to form, since new music that serves a commercial purpose such as film is just "film music" for example (i.e. we don't think of it in formal terms). But we recognize an opera Overture as a form, despite the fact that it too served the practical purpose akin to a film score. In other words: Formal diversity really does exist but these days we have special reasons for considering that diversity to be outside the classical tradition.
@@bdellovibrioo5242 this is an interesting observation. I wonder what reasons we have for considering certain kinds of music outside of the classical tradition in the present day?
So how early did the composers start to treat the dominant in the exposition section as an independent new key and not just like a dominant key centre in realation to the tonic key? In a typical dance, for instance, you often see the first part ending in the dominant, but we haven't really changed key in the large scale of things.
CN: "...the organ sonata, which sort of went off on its own and fizzled out sometime in the middle of the 20th century." An organist composer somewhere: "I'm about to end this man's whole career."
It could be argued that the organ symphony/sonata/suite has never stopped being composed, but like many 'received genres', they aren't called 'sonata' or 'symphony' any more (c.v. Debussy's 'symphony', La Mer, or Ravel's 'sonata', Gaspard de la Nuit).
hi everyone. came to the latest video to make a nerdy question for the ones of u that understand set theory. why tf i can't find the [0,3,4,8] set in Forte's table?
Because [0348] is not the absolute smallest (i.e. "left-packed") version of that set out there-that would be [0148], which is Forte number 4-19. A handy tool I like to use is the PC Set Calculator at www.mta.ca/pc-set/calculator/pc_calculate.html
@@ClassicalNerd thanks, man. really useful site. though i'm familiar with left-packing, i used to just look for the inversionally equivalent set in the table (and don't apply Forte's requirements for normal order after that). it's really hard to find content about the "deeper" music theory online, your channel's great. thanks again.
Dear me, what scholarship and time you pour into your postings. I only wish you were more widely known. Do you teach a clas (es)? Additionally, I need a way to send a contribution that doesn't involve a middle man ~ so, if you wish to provide such a method for me, I'd like to support your work. Rev. Robert. 😍😍😍
Thank you, Robert! I taught a music appreciation class last semester at SUNY Buffalo, where I'm in grad school, and my RUclips experience definitely came in handy. (It's hard to be intimidated by a lecture hall of 80 undergrads when you're used to an audience of thousands!) Most ways of funding content like this involves _some_ form of middleman, sad to say; Patreon takes a small cut, but in exchange I do post bonus content, channel updates, book reviews, and the like. If you truly want to avoid such platforms ... shoot me an email. :)
You can watch the video and end up with the same conclusion, as everything in music in the last 70 years has boiled down to anything can be anything. That's not a bad thing, to be clear.
Hello friend. I just found your videos and they have been as informative as they have been entertaining- that is too say they have been wonderful. But, and forgive me if I overstep, I wish to request you make a video- any video- on the great American composer Louis Moreau Gottschalk. I found this man on New Year’s Eve and he has transformed my appreciation for music since. A Lisztian figure in his ingenuity who put notation to the creole music of Louisiana seems like he’d be an interesting figure to anyone, but he’s sadly forgotten. Forgive me if you have another way of receiving requests- if you still do them anymore. But I had to spread the word so to speak.
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
24:10 A quick clarification here: the “essential expositional closure” is not, strictly speaking, the closing _section_ of an exposition in the Hepokoski/Darcy view-rather, it is the first strong cadence into the secondary key, which almost always happens towards the end of a movement. Note how Mozart is clearly _in_ C Major throughout the second half of the exposition, but doesn’t do a strong V-I cadence in C Major until the last section.
thank you :)
The real sonata form is the keys we articulated along the way
Nice comment
The sonata is absolutely one of the musical forms of all time
😂😂😂
57:00 About Boulez and sonata, I think we have here a recurring pattern in early Boulez's works.
Between 1945 and 1946, Boulez studied with Leibowitz the twelve-tone technique. He was fascinated by this technique but, at the same time, he was critical about Leibowitz approach of it that he found to rigid and academic. He consequently composed 12 Notations for piano. It was his first attempt in twelve-tone technique and in this work, we can feel the enthusiasm of Boulez for this new technique in the way explores all the expressive possibilities of it. But we also have here an ensemble of 12 pieces of 12 measures, all based on the same tone row of 12 notes. In this repetition of the number 12, there is a kind of satire of Leibowitz's academism and his obsession for the number 12.
Among Boulez's first works, a lot of them relied on traditionnal fixed form : Prélude, toccata et scherzo (1944-1945, unpublished), Thème et variations for piano, left hand (1945, unpublished), Sonatine for flute and piano (1945), Symphonie concertante for piano and orchestra (1947, lost), the 2 first Piano sonatas (1946 and 1948)... The 2nd piano is especially interesting. It is apparently a traditionnal 4-movements sonata : first movement in sonata form, slow movement in variation form, scherzo with 3 trios, and introduction, fugue and final as the last movement. But on the other hand, Boulez "corrupts" these traditionnal forms: the thematic and tonal opposition in the first movement is replaced by an opposition between 2 "motivic" ideas, the fugue hasn't an melodic subject but a rythmic one etc... By doing this, Boulez destroys the traditional forms from the inside. After this works, appart from the 3rd piano sonata (which hasn't a traditional structure at all), he no more made use of a traditional form.
After the failure of Polyphonie X in 1951, Boulez began to call integral serialism into question. He thought that serialism had gone too far. It became too rigid and restrained the composers creativity. But before giving up it, he composed a last work : the first book of Structures for 2 pianos. In this work, he pushed the principle of integral serialism the farthest he has ever done. But on the other hand, it is a kind of a reductio ad absurdum to show it was a dead end. As Boulez said it later, by desiring too much controlling all parameters, we paradoxically produce a music that sounds as chaotic as if there was no control at all. After this, Boulez will try in Le Marteau sans maître to develop a less rigid system which gives more place to creativity.
I have personnally an explanation for all of this: in spite of his reputation of iconoclast, Boulez had a strong sense of the history. He was conscious to be the product of a musical tradition. So when an element of this tradition that had an important place in his personal development came to bother him, he couldn't symply get ride of it. He had to react to it by a work in order to bring an end to it before being able to go ahead. Hence the necessity for him to destroy the old forms from the inside in his 2nd piano sonata before dropping them, or to push integral serialism to its limit in Structures before adopting a less rigid system. It isn't only a provocation, but also a personal necessity in his own personal evolution.
I don't know how much my analyse is right but it is coherent with what I know about Boulez.
This channel is an absolute gem. As someone who came from a pop/rock background and that is now studying a bachelor in chamber music performance, your videos have been a great resource for learning how to approach classical music as an outsider. Thank you! :)
"It's not like THE LAST JEDI or something." A+ for contemporary-minded lucidity!
This is absolutely fascinating
one of the most excellent video essays on this excellent channel, thanks for all your work!
Thanks for this! Most non musicians have a hard time understanding key and tonality as well as major and minor.
Had been waiting for your next video and it was worth the wait. Thank you for all your hard work.
Thank you,Thomas. Always excellent. Happy 2023.🌹🌹🌹🌹
Ok. So... I have a new favorite channel now. Great job! Thanks!
One mention that I'd like to make is Charles Rosen with his book 'Sonata Forms'. My music theory professor has been using it for many years now. It provides a profound historical overview on the development of the sonata style as well as explaining where the term sonata derived from and why the classical sonata form which is commonly taught is not really suitable and should be opened. I really like it. Great video, greetings from Germany :)
Hey thank you for the tip! I’ll be buying this book 😎
Your channel is very based. Thank you.
Glad you’re back!
A lot of interesting knowledge in one accessible video. Good job!
Your videos are awesome, thank you so much for all the hard work you put into this. I very much appreciate this free lesson, very kind and generous of you to provide
Wow, this is amazing resource. Thank you.
According to Jörg Demus, it is JS Bach who first used the sonata form in the D major prelude of his WTC Book 2
I’m currently finishing up the learning of 3 sonatas by Mauro Guiliani, and this video is super helpful, thank you!
My personal favorite sonatas + recommended recordings (listed alphabetically by composer):
Dukas - Piano Sonata in Eb Minor - (Hamelin/Hyperion)
Feinberg - Piano Sonata #4 in Eb Minor, Op.6 - (Hamein/Hyperion)
Feinberg - Piano Sonata #6 in B Minor, Op.13 - (Hamelin/Hyperion)
Godowsky - Piano Sonata in E Minor - (Aleksander/PPR)
Rachmaninov - Piano Sonata #2 in Bb Minor, Op.36 - (Osborne/Hyperion)
Scriabin - Fantaisie, Op.28 - (Hamelin/Hyperion)
Scriabin - Piano Sonata #4 in F# Major, Op.30 - (Hough/Hyperion)
Sorabji - Piano Sonata #1, KSS.20 - (Hamelin/Altarus)
Shostakovich - Piano Sonata #1, Op.12 - (Gugnin/Hyperion)
Szymanowski - Piano Sonata #2 in A Major, Op.21 - (Debargue/Sony)
Excellent!!….as always thank you so much!!
Ur back. Whoo!!
Thanks for the effort in this video. You’ve explained many things that I’ve wondered about sonata form and it’s history and where it went after Beethoven. I discovered classical music entirely through Beethovens piano sonatas, and branch out from there. After a while the only way I understood what happened to the sonata was that simply composers were intimidated by what Beethoven did, and did not want to be compared to him. I thought it was a shame because the sonata form or principle (I like that term better) is in my mind the ideal framework for expressing the hero’s journey through sound. I would add to the definition that the sonata principle mirrors the hero’s journey. The first movement in sonata form does this explicitly, and the total sonata in all of its movements combined continue the hero’s journey in different ways. So a sonata is like a fractal of hero’s journeys. It’s a shame that more musicians and composers don’t consider this an opportunity to create a whole new world of expression. I believe this principle can establish totally original “journeys” from every human that “properly” utilizes it. There’s an objective quality to it, in that absolute music, that has been forgotten, and I’ve always attributed it to the intimidation of climbing that mountain Beethoven conquered. The ones to attempt it were like Brahms and Schubert and Liszt and of course some others, but when you fast forward to today it’s clear to see that this idea has been totally forgotten by music artists. I can only guess that the reason is due to its sheer difficulty in achieving it.
Thanks again for your video.
Cheers
I enjoy your channel a lot and you help me understand many musical concepts as well. I like your Great Composers as well. I was wondering if you would do one on Benjamin Britten or Luigi Nono? I would love to learn more about them.
Duly noted!
You should do a bookshelf tour
I await each new video with expectation. This is one of the best - tough going at times but well worth the effort. PS Is the 1st movement of your symphony the only one recorded so far? I'm intrigued to hear the rest of it.
22:39 Is that a bit of Phrygian spice (re: Ab note) in the Medial Caesura? If so, is that part of the relish & celebration? Great video! I'm somewhat familiar with the Sonata form but am learning a lot from this.
God your channel is so amazing 😍
36:26 Bach has a scherzo in his a minor klavier partita. Its not the same form as the classical scherzo, but he used the term already.
Can you do a video similar to this and your concerto video on the Symphony? I’m really interested in how it developed over time.
What is playing at 27:10
GREAT VIDEO
I often wonder if our musical tradition will cycle back to composers writing in accepted and regular forms. It feels like we’re in an era of experimentation, trying to find something that will stick.
In order for this to happen, the contexts and purposes of new music may need to diversify. Right now there's a kind of arbitrariness to form, since new music that serves a commercial purpose such as film is just "film music" for example (i.e. we don't think of it in formal terms). But we recognize an opera Overture as a form, despite the fact that it too served the practical purpose akin to a film score.
In other words: Formal diversity really does exist but these days we have special reasons for considering that diversity to be outside the classical tradition.
@@bdellovibrioo5242 this is an interesting observation. I wonder what reasons we have for considering certain kinds of music outside of the classical tradition in the present day?
If you consider pop music tho, it has a really strict and homogeneous form lol.
@@pgbpriuvnri haha, true. Though I hear a lot of innovative ideas coming from country music and rap artists.
Me: currently driving a Sonata
Great video ;)
So how early did the composers start to treat the dominant in the exposition section as an independent new key and not just like a dominant key centre in realation to the tonic key? In a typical dance, for instance, you often see the first part ending in the dominant, but we haven't really changed key in the large scale of things.
Is there any chance you would do a video of the latvian composer Adolf Skulte?
Duly noted.
Could you do a video on Frederick Delius
Thanks
Duly noted.
Good
Who wrote your intro theme?
@@eltonwild5648 my high school self
Wow.
CN: "...the organ sonata, which sort of went off on its own and fizzled out sometime in the middle of the 20th century."
An organist composer somewhere: "I'm about to end this man's whole career."
It could be argued that the organ symphony/sonata/suite has never stopped being composed, but like many 'received genres', they aren't called 'sonata' or 'symphony' any more (c.v. Debussy's 'symphony', La Mer, or Ravel's 'sonata', Gaspard de la Nuit).
Common Classical Nerd W
Ideas for new composer biographies:
Giacomo Puccini
Jules Massanet
Charles Gounod
Duly noted.
"The second coolest Schumann"
👏
hi everyone. came to the latest video to make a nerdy question for the ones of u that understand set theory. why tf i can't find the [0,3,4,8] set in Forte's table?
Because [0348] is not the absolute smallest (i.e. "left-packed") version of that set out there-that would be [0148], which is Forte number 4-19. A handy tool I like to use is the PC Set Calculator at www.mta.ca/pc-set/calculator/pc_calculate.html
@@ClassicalNerd thanks, man. really useful site. though i'm familiar with left-packing, i used to just look for the inversionally equivalent set in the table (and don't apply Forte's requirements for normal order after that). it's really hard to find content about the "deeper" music theory online, your channel's great. thanks again.
waiting for the neo-baroque peeve
❤️🎵❤️
its sonata a tumaaa!
First comment?
Dear me, what scholarship and time you pour into your postings. I only wish you were more widely known. Do you teach a clas (es)? Additionally, I need a way to send a contribution that doesn't involve a middle man ~ so, if you wish to provide such a method for me, I'd like to support your work. Rev. Robert. 😍😍😍
Thank you, Robert! I taught a music appreciation class last semester at SUNY Buffalo, where I'm in grad school, and my RUclips experience definitely came in handy. (It's hard to be intimidated by a lecture hall of 80 undergrads when you're used to an audience of thousands!)
Most ways of funding content like this involves _some_ form of middleman, sad to say; Patreon takes a small cut, but in exchange I do post bonus content, channel updates, book reviews, and the like. If you truly want to avoid such platforms ... shoot me an email. :)
I am lost from the beginning .... and it irritates me.
So I just accept that the thing called sonata is just ..... called a sonata. End of story.
You can watch the video and end up with the same conclusion, as everything in music in the last 70 years has boiled down to anything can be anything. That's not a bad thing, to be clear.
Why use a computer to play music in a boring way?
Because that was probably too much of the work to get away with using a recording on RUclips.
Adolf Marx? That can't be good...
Hello friend. I just found your videos and they have been as informative as they have been entertaining- that is too say they have been wonderful. But, and forgive me if I overstep, I wish to request you make a video- any video- on the great American composer Louis Moreau Gottschalk.
I found this man on New Year’s Eve and he has transformed my appreciation for music since. A Lisztian figure in his ingenuity who put notation to the creole music of Louisiana seems like he’d be an interesting figure to anyone, but he’s sadly forgotten.
Forgive me if you have another way of receiving requests- if you still do them anymore. But I had to spread the word so to speak.
Duly noted.