For me the idea of Romanitas or Romaness (or in Spanish Romanismo) comes from the share heritage of the people who all descended from the Roman World either culturaly or ethnically. I feel more than just the learning of the Latin language, although that certainly helps, it's the idea of pursuing ancient knowledge and applying that to today's world. The Roman Empire shaped the history of Europe, Africa, Asia and even later the New World. When ignorant people say what have the Roman done for us only for one to answer everything. That comes from the knowledge of said history and culture. But from an ancient perspective before the nation state Romanitas or the idea of who is a Roman is certainly interesting. What was something exclusive to citizens of a Polis became part of the larger Italic Peninsula and later to friendly polis or soldiers and finally an entire Empire.
A very interesting 2 hours that made me think deeply of the sociocultural perception of language in populations both in antiquity and now. Thanks for your time here, Luke.
You say Latin is unique in its lasting prestige. I think that Classical Chinese in Asia especially Taiwan and japan has a similar vibe and importance and in fact many Taiwanese laws are still written in Classical Chinese (it was mandatory until the 70s I believe) and indeed formal writing in Taiwan China and even to some extent in japan can blur the lines with the Classical Chinese. it was only in the 20th century that the written language of china and japan became “venacularized”
I have noticed that knowing a "provincial dialect" adds to comprehension of nearby languages whereas knowing the standard language doesn't seem to help all that much.
Question; I was born in Poland but I grew-up on the Scotland, UK. I grew-up speaking both Polish & English. I do visit Poland to visit family there but I do not always feel like I fit in within the culture. I go to England for shopping and education. I'm I British or Polish? Am I a Celt, a Germanic person or a Slav?
If you’re a UK citizen then you’re definitely British, as well as Polish (especially if you have duel citizenship). It’s an interesting question, though; what makes up our identity? It’s not easy to answer. I suppose it’s a combination of what you identify with combined with how you’re accepted by those with whom you identify
Being of Hispanic heritage (Iberian ancestry) automatically gives one a cultural connection with Ancient Rome given Hispania was one of its greatest provinces. The old Iberian culture and language is gone (Basque being the exception), therefore much of what it means to be a Spaniard is basically Roman, essentially. Someone correct me if I'm wrong in saying so, being of significant Spanish and Sephardic Jewish descent by way of Cuban and Venezuela. I believe I do have a certain sense of Rōmānitās, more so than Hellēnitas, perhaps, given my connection with Spain and my lifelong fascination with Rome and, recently, its immortal language that I can say I am proud I speak a lot of even if not fluently, YET, quod nunc exerceō. 😉
It would actually be inaccurate to say "much of what is Spanish essentially Roman" because it ignores that Roman provinces had their own ideas of what a Roman which also included the different admixture of cultures they had. Hispania actually had a massive Punic influence before the Visigoths that even the Roman elites and native Iberians picked up on and it seems to have been characteristic of Hispania. This is relevant because it shows that what Hispania had thought was Roman wasn't seen as such in Rome, even Hadrian and Trajan are mocked and called barbarians by their own Senate for their "Hispanic accents". Furthermore, what you attribute to the Romans actually was the doing of the Visigoths. The Visigoths had introduced Latin beyond the main cities of Hispania, as well as Roman Catholicism (ironically), and even Roman law which were reformed into the Visigothic Codes. What seems to be Roman is actually Gothic. Hence why Spain in the Middle Ages would claim descendants, not from Rome, but from the Goths and Franks. Spain inherits more from the Goths and Franks than it does directly from Rome. And let's not get into the massive influences the Sepharadim and Muslims had. Spain and Portugal (especially Portugal's Celtic connections) really have a lot more going on than just "essentially Romans".
Well, compared from you Spaniards, we Romanians could very well say "much of what it means to be a Romanian is basically Roman". As what were the native population of the Balkans (e.g Paleo-Balkanics) were assimilated into the Roman world. And what remained was a Christian-Roman population on both banks of the Danube river; hence why we Romanians compared to any other Neo-Latin speaking people still call ourselves _Român_ meaning "of Rome" from "Romanus" aka "Roman". So just as @hyperion3145 said, people at that time had their own idea what they were, and apparently the Romans of the Balkans that became us today saw themselves more than anything as Roman, though native influence from the Thracians were still apparent, there's a reason we call ourselves till this day Român.
In terms of accents and learning Latin I think that regional variety and people moving would really accelerate that. In modern China, people from different provinces move around and start speaking Mandarin primarily and leaving their Chinese "dialects". I recently read that the spread of Aramaic was sped up by resettling populations in the middle east during the Neo Assyrian period (like the biblical northern kingdom of Israel). In my own experience, though I was raised in the south of the US, it would feel artificial to have a southern accent since I'm not ethnically from that background. It is almost like a very standardized prestige version of a language always becomes popular.
Luke is correct about French, but English since the French Revolution has become the "Lingua Franca" of the modern industrialized world. The parralells are there though, they were/are laguages of Empire, Commerce and Culture.
Ho ascoltato il video dall'inizio alla fine. Sembra ovvio, ma è sempre interessante vedere come anche nell'antichità si usasse la lingua per affermare la cultura e l'identità di un popolo, specialmente quando a farlo sono le stesse popolazioni assoggettate. È inevitabile fare confronti tra l'inglese di oggi e il latino di ieri (in termini di prestigio). Basterebbe acquisire una maggiore consapevolezza linguistica per evitare che questo succeda? O è una naturale propensione irrazionale dell'essere umano? Non lo so, ma questi video sono sempre un ottimo spunto di riflessione! Keep up the good work, @polymathy1017
È una bella domanda! Possiamo vedere l'inglese, il cinese, il greco, il latino lingue di imperi che hanno avuto un effetto di prestigio nella loro zona, è vero. Meglio preservare la varietà linguistica che abbiamo, no?
Salve magister! Plurimum tibi gratias ago pro alveo RUclips, datum est linguae amatoribus. Et per extensionem ad cognitionis amantes. Potesne compendiari opera Dr. J. N. Adams "The Regional Diversification of Latin 200 BC - AD 600" in Universitate Oxoniensi?
@@polyMATHYplus Salve Maestro! Quería preguntarle a usted si podría RESUMIR la obra descrita de J.N. Adams. Muchas gracias por su excelente labor de divulgación!!
My name is Thomas, it has two pronunciations in French and English, and i've always used both depending on the language. I've heard people try saying /to'ma/ to me in english and i've told them not to, it sound uncanny. After learning occitan, i began occitanizing my name as Tomàs just like every occitan speaker always does. As a result of these 3, i always translate my name between languages, not doing so feels weird to me.
This is pretty cool and though it seems like common sense it isn't. Speaking as a brazilian, my people have the habit of pronouncing brazilian proper nouns (proper names, cities, dishes...) as we say it in portuguese while speaking english, and when I put myself on the shoes of the person they are talking to I can't help but to imagine what they hear (probably gibberish), and how they imagine its orthography.... So yeah, a little rant to say I appreciate adapting proper nouns to the language we are speaking at the moment.
14:41 I thought about this a lot of Latin being the ancient language that is the best understood and the most taught today, and the only realistic challenger that I can think of is Sanskrit. I know Sanskrit has a similar level of prestige in India like Latin has in the West, but how much the two compare, I simply don't know. I'd definitely discount Chinese, because I can safely bet it'll still just be writing old characters but pronouncing them the modern way. Maaaybe count Arabic, but that's rather murky with modern Arabic diglossia and we're kinda stretching what we count as "ancient" here.
With so many people identifying as SOMETHING outside of their circumstance at birth, nowadays.......would it be too much of a stretch, for someone born in the US, of Hispanic ancestry, to identify as straight up ROMAN when looking back to a more ancient identity, before Spain expanded it's territories and before the Western Empire fell?
As a Romanian, it makes me full of pride (humbly to god) that I speak a Neo-Latin language and in the same time still holds the ethnonym of the Romans. It really makes me see Ancient Rome as our true ancestors, our ancient history, though we have traitors amongst us who makes up different origins from Barbarians for political reasons; I guess we have that also inherited from the Romans, e.g Troia and Aeneas.
I'm fine with people having all sorts of attitudes towards Latin, including opinions or mannerisms I find wretched, but I think we can agree in describing styles of Latin to be favorable to the highest aesthetic values and those which are not, and that we should use the surviving native examples of Latinitas to structure how Latin is spoken and taught today. I recoil in horror at Ecclesial Latin but I still prefer it over some of the boorish "Brooklyn Latin" (that can be found on youtube) heard in some Ivy League schools, but I could even prefer that over the (sadly routine) saps who insist they only want to read Latin without ever speaking it. I think it is a question of what are the first principles of Latin education is and hopefully we can elevate our speech to effective standards and realize the breathtaking work of art the human voice can produce that, I think many people sense, is a missing element from our native languages.
Scio romanitam ab lege non institutam esse. Secundum aedictum Caracallae omnes incolae ingenui imperii romani sunt civites romani. Nescio si hoc aedictum iurem sanginis otorgavit omibus liberis civitium romanorum.
For me the idea of Romanitas or Romaness (or in Spanish Romanismo) comes from the share heritage of the people who all descended from the Roman World either culturaly or ethnically. I feel more than just the learning of the Latin language, although that certainly helps, it's the idea of pursuing ancient knowledge and applying that to today's world. The Roman Empire shaped the history of Europe, Africa, Asia and even later the New World. When ignorant people say what have the Roman done for us only for one to answer everything. That comes from the knowledge of said history and culture.
But from an ancient perspective before the nation state Romanitas or the idea of who is a Roman is certainly interesting. What was something exclusive to citizens of a Polis became part of the larger Italic Peninsula and later to friendly polis or soldiers and finally an entire Empire.
A very interesting 2 hours that made me think deeply of the sociocultural perception of language in populations both in antiquity and now. Thanks for your time here, Luke.
Thanks for watching
0:32:00 I've always know him as Victor Emmanuel in English
You say Latin is unique in its lasting prestige. I think that Classical Chinese in Asia especially Taiwan and japan has a similar vibe and importance and in fact many Taiwanese laws are still written in Classical Chinese (it was mandatory until the 70s I believe) and indeed formal writing in Taiwan China and even to some extent in japan can blur the lines with the Classical Chinese. it was only in the 20th century that the written language of china and japan became “venacularized”
Agreed
I have noticed that knowing a "provincial dialect" adds to comprehension of nearby languages whereas knowing the standard language doesn't seem to help all that much.
Question; I was born in Poland but I grew-up on the Scotland, UK. I grew-up speaking both Polish & English. I do visit Poland to visit family there but I do not always feel like I fit in within the culture. I go to England for shopping and education. I'm I British or Polish? Am I a Celt, a Germanic person or a Slav?
If you’re a UK citizen then you’re definitely British, as well as Polish (especially if you have duel citizenship). It’s an interesting question, though; what makes up our identity? It’s not easy to answer. I suppose it’s a combination of what you identify with combined with how you’re accepted by those with whom you identify
Being of Hispanic heritage (Iberian ancestry) automatically gives one a cultural connection with Ancient Rome given Hispania was one of its greatest provinces. The old Iberian culture and language is gone (Basque being the exception), therefore much of what it means to be a Spaniard is basically Roman, essentially.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong in saying so, being of significant Spanish and Sephardic Jewish descent by way of Cuban and Venezuela.
I believe I do have a certain sense of Rōmānitās, more so than Hellēnitas, perhaps, given my connection with Spain and my lifelong fascination with Rome and, recently, its immortal language that I can say I am proud I speak a lot of even if not fluently, YET, quod nunc exerceō. 😉
It would actually be inaccurate to say "much of what is Spanish essentially Roman" because it ignores that Roman provinces had their own ideas of what a Roman which also included the different admixture of cultures they had. Hispania actually had a massive Punic influence before the Visigoths that even the Roman elites and native Iberians picked up on and it seems to have been characteristic of Hispania. This is relevant because it shows that what Hispania had thought was Roman wasn't seen as such in Rome, even Hadrian and Trajan are mocked and called barbarians by their own Senate for their "Hispanic accents".
Furthermore, what you attribute to the Romans actually was the doing of the Visigoths. The Visigoths had introduced Latin beyond the main cities of Hispania, as well as Roman Catholicism (ironically), and even Roman law which were reformed into the Visigothic Codes. What seems to be Roman is actually Gothic. Hence why Spain in the Middle Ages would claim descendants, not from Rome, but from the Goths and Franks. Spain inherits more from the Goths and Franks than it does directly from Rome.
And let's not get into the massive influences the Sepharadim and Muslims had. Spain and Portugal (especially Portugal's Celtic connections) really have a lot more going on than just "essentially Romans".
Well, compared from you Spaniards, we Romanians could very well say "much of what it means to be a Romanian is basically Roman". As what were the native population of the Balkans (e.g Paleo-Balkanics) were assimilated into the Roman world. And what remained was a Christian-Roman population on both banks of the Danube river; hence why we Romanians compared to any other Neo-Latin speaking people still call ourselves _Român_ meaning "of Rome" from "Romanus" aka "Roman". So just as @hyperion3145 said, people at that time had their own idea what they were, and apparently the Romans of the Balkans that became us today saw themselves more than anything as Roman, though native influence from the Thracians were still apparent, there's a reason we call ourselves till this day Român.
In terms of accents and learning Latin I think that regional variety and people moving would really accelerate that. In modern China, people from different provinces move around and start speaking Mandarin primarily and leaving their Chinese "dialects". I recently read that the spread of Aramaic was sped up by resettling populations in the middle east during the Neo Assyrian period (like the biblical northern kingdom of Israel). In my own experience, though I was raised in the south of the US, it would feel artificial to have a southern accent since I'm not ethnically from that background. It is almost like a very standardized prestige version of a language always becomes popular.
Luke is correct about French, but English since the French Revolution has become the "Lingua Franca" of the modern industrialized world.
The parralells are there though, they were/are laguages of Empire, Commerce and Culture.
Ho ascoltato il video dall'inizio alla fine. Sembra ovvio, ma è sempre interessante vedere come anche nell'antichità si usasse la lingua per affermare la cultura e l'identità di un popolo, specialmente quando a farlo sono le stesse popolazioni assoggettate. È inevitabile fare confronti tra l'inglese di oggi e il latino di ieri (in termini di prestigio). Basterebbe acquisire una maggiore consapevolezza linguistica per evitare che questo succeda? O è una naturale propensione irrazionale dell'essere umano? Non lo so, ma questi video sono sempre un ottimo spunto di riflessione! Keep up the good work, @polymathy1017
È una bella domanda! Possiamo vedere l'inglese, il cinese, il greco, il latino lingue di imperi che hanno avuto un effetto di prestigio nella loro zona, è vero. Meglio preservare la varietà linguistica che abbiamo, no?
1:56:17 Are you mocking Clau-Clau-Claudius' stutter? 😂
Salve magister! Plurimum tibi gratias ago pro alveo RUclips, datum est linguae amatoribus. Et per extensionem ad cognitionis amantes. Potesne compendiari opera Dr. J. N. Adams "The Regional Diversification of Latin 200 BC - AD 600" in Universitate Oxoniensi?
Salvē! Quid vīs dīcere scribēns “compendiārī” ?
@@polyMATHYplus Salve Maestro! Quería preguntarle a usted si podría RESUMIR la obra descrita de J.N. Adams. Muchas gracias por su excelente labor de divulgación!!
46:44 When it comes to changes like arrabōnem -> rabōnem and cicōnia -> cōnia, I think you mean either "procope" or "apheresis".
My name is Thomas, it has two pronunciations in French and English, and i've always used both depending on the language. I've heard people try saying /to'ma/ to me in english and i've told them not to, it sound uncanny.
After learning occitan, i began occitanizing my name as Tomàs just like every occitan speaker always does. As a result of these 3, i always translate my name between languages, not doing so feels weird to me.
This is pretty cool and though it seems like common sense it isn't. Speaking as a brazilian, my people have the habit of pronouncing brazilian proper nouns (proper names, cities, dishes...) as we say it in portuguese while speaking english, and when I put myself on the shoes of the person they are talking to I can't help but to imagine what they hear (probably gibberish), and how they imagine its orthography.... So yeah, a little rant to say I appreciate adapting proper nouns to the language we are speaking at the moment.
@@viictor1309 At this point I can only recognize how y'all say Rio de Janeiro
14:41 I thought about this a lot of Latin being the ancient language that is the best understood and the most taught today, and the only realistic challenger that I can think of is Sanskrit. I know Sanskrit has a similar level of prestige in India like Latin has in the West, but how much the two compare, I simply don't know.
I'd definitely discount Chinese, because I can safely bet it'll still just be writing old characters but pronouncing them the modern way. Maaaybe count Arabic, but that's rather murky with modern Arabic diglossia and we're kinda stretching what we count as "ancient" here.
Salve magister. Cum USA fortiter terras Hispaniae ad occidentem adiunxisset, linguam Hispanicam non toleraverunt. Gratias.
thema haec res est maxime momenti, maxima gratia ago.
I would love for a qualified Latin speaker to start a Cicero-style Latin school or class.
With so many people identifying as SOMETHING outside of their circumstance at birth, nowadays.......would it be too much of a stretch, for someone born in the US, of Hispanic ancestry, to identify as straight up ROMAN when looking back to a more ancient identity, before Spain expanded it's territories and before the Western Empire fell?
As a Romanian, it makes me full of pride (humbly to god) that I speak a Neo-Latin language and in the same time still holds the ethnonym of the Romans. It really makes me see Ancient Rome as our true ancestors, our ancient history, though we have traitors amongst us who makes up different origins from Barbarians for political reasons; I guess we have that also inherited from the Romans, e.g Troia and Aeneas.
I'm fine with people having all sorts of attitudes towards Latin, including opinions or mannerisms I find wretched, but I think we can agree in describing styles of Latin to be favorable to the highest aesthetic values and those which are not, and that we should use the surviving native examples of Latinitas to structure how Latin is spoken and taught today. I recoil in horror at Ecclesial Latin but I still prefer it over some of the boorish "Brooklyn Latin" (that can be found on youtube) heard in some Ivy League schools, but I could even prefer that over the (sadly routine) saps who insist they only want to read Latin without ever speaking it. I think it is a question of what are the first principles of Latin education is and hopefully we can elevate our speech to effective standards and realize the breathtaking work of art the human voice can produce that, I think many people sense, is a missing element from our native languages.
Scio romanitam ab lege non institutam esse. Secundum aedictum Caracallae omnes incolae ingenui imperii romani sunt civites romani. Nescio si hoc aedictum iurem sanginis otorgavit omibus liberis civitium romanorum.