The Hobbit The Battle of Five Armies, Lost in Adaptation ~ The Dom & Calluna
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- Опубликовано: 15 сен 2018
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The Dom and Calluna return to Middle Earth to see how The Hobbit adaptation saga concluded.
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Legolas' mother being dead also subtly devalues a great moment of his in Fellowship. When Gandalf falls, everyone is sad, but Legolas in particular looks like he's surprised at the experience of grief. Y'know, 'cause he's from a race of immortals and implicitly never had to face death personally.
Now that you mention it, he does look more confused than anything else. He might even be in denial
well part of that is also, that given who and what gandalf is the still very "young" Legolas simply could not fathermore him simply dying like that. All the elved react very strongly to his loss no matter how close and chummy they actualy had been with him and for legolas ist was simply . . .surreal . . .
This might be a case of the Mandela effect, but I remember clearly reading from either the appendix' or The Unfinished Tales about Legolas' mother being killed by the Baddies...
Damn, now I really want to take a deep dive into all things Middle-Earth again! If only I had the time.
@koivunen2489 Would it be less time consuming if you could listen to a podcast that laid it all out in more-or-less chronological order? I found something like that called "Lord Of The Rings Lorecast."
@@adamdavis1648 it would, probably, but I'm not too good at listening to audio. I tend to use them as a background noise when I'm doing something else, and that's not a good method of research 😅
Not surprised that they changed the "gold sickness" part of the story. Lots of corporate types hate anything even remotely related to a "greed is bad" Aesop.
Geez, I wonder why?
Okay so canonically The Dom is now living with Terrance, Calluna, Utopian Future Dom and Dystopian Future Dom. That house has got to be getting crowded.
Don't forget Reginald
I have a feeling Terrance only pops in every once in awhile even tho he lives there. He just shows up for sustance like an outside cat.
Terrance can probably just use magic to make their house bigger on the inside.
Star Hunter let's be real even tho he could, he only did it to his own bedroom.
Fun house!
"Billbo being knocked out freed them from the obligations of needing to stick to the story."
Not that they ever really felt that obligated to begin with.
True. Almost like they forgot about the book they were following....
Oh my Lord, I just realised something....Why didn't they just make Tauriel Legolas' mother?! She'd be an added female character who actually has a good reason for being there, and you could have had the romance with Kili instead be a sort of unrequited love-from-afar relationship, mirroring Gimli's admiration of Galadriel. Focus instead on the relationship between Tauriel and Thranduil instead of Tauriel and Legolas, then have Tauriel die defending the dwarves, with Legolas making only a cameo appearance at her funeral.
There’s a scene in LOTR (books) that’s basically, Gandalf lamenting how rare and expensive mithril is, and how Bilbo probably donated his mithril shirt to gather dust in the local hobbit museum and Gimli, a dwarf whose culture has lost a lot of their artifacts, is very shocked and dismayed, and Frodo, who is currently wearing the shirt, freaks out on the inside because the cool shirt his uncle gave him is actually worth more than the entire shire. It’s beautifully funny
"Why wasn't the death of Smaug the end of the second movie instead of the pre-credit's sequence for this one?" Yes, yes yes and again yes. I ranted about this the entire way home from the theatre.
Because they didn't think anyone would see the third movie if there was no dragon to slay. That's my guess anyway.
They went on their adventure to kill a dragon, and they killed the dragon. Not really much left after that, in not just the book, but also for your regularass dumb general audience member. Why would they stick around for the final movie if the villain had already been slain?
@@uknownada End the second film with Gandalf fighting the Necromancer, who is revealed to be Sauron, and then cut to the armies of Dol Guldur marching to Erebor, showing the audience that the worst has truly yet to come and the real war is about to begin.
There, done. Fixed. Solid, efficient cliffhanger.
@@uniqueness35fanofimginatio73 Sounds good! Maybe they shoulda planned that. Or literally anything.
As I said previously: Shelob! She was in Book 4, the second half of The Two Towers, so I can only imagine they wanted to end with that horor-filled realisation of Bilbo having effectively doomed the people of Laketown to incineration as a "oh, sh*t" moment! Not the fist film to do it and I highly doubt it'll be the last!
To be fair, the reason most of the extended scenes were left out wasn't by Peter Jackson's choice, it was because he didn't have enough time to finish the effects and the studio refused to let him push the release back. Actually, the love triangle and the trilogy expansion were both studio mandated as well. I mean, Jackson made some bad decisions, but the worst crimes of adaptation probably weren't things he wanted to do in the first place. I feel pretty bad for him.
Yeah, because so many 3th parties (like Harvey Weinstein...) did have rights get some money from first Hobbit movies, Warner decided made 3 movies so they would get more money. If New Line Cinema would be in charge...
1) The worst part is i think that the love triangle stuff could have worked fine with a bit of tweaking and thinking things out. How about this: Tauriel could have just started a secret thing with Legolas and have those two be in love (since they wanted to go with asshole king, thranduil wouldn't have aproved therefore secret), her having befriended Kili while he was captured and him having fallen in love with her. Legolas and her having some argument over her wanting to help kili and company, her leaving to help and him staying behind for little but quickly deciding to follow her and that she was right and he would help her out (their argument could be over following his dads orders, and Legolas being conflicted since he's already going against his dad by dating/courting her). Eventually having a sad/upset kili after finding out in some way (either by a honest conversation with tauriel or seeing her and legolas together) that she's not in love with him, getting into a bad situation because he's not paying enough attention because he's a bit heartbroken over her not returing his affection, her going to the rescue and her dying trying to save kili. It would have also been a nice starting point for why legolas wants to leave mirkwood, getting a good understanding with his dad and a nice starting point for his dwarf racism. Yes it plays a bit on the woman in refrigturator thing but since she had more character and more character development than just being used as motivation for legolas i think you couldn't really compare her with existing to just motivate a male character. It could have even been a good thing for tying things in with the LotR trilogy (since that is what they were going for).
2) Hell if they wanted to add in a dwarf/elf romance kili has a twin that also dies, tauriel could have had a twin/sister/female friend that could have had her arc without the legolas jealousy stuff, that could have also made that "why does it hurt so much" line a bit more ambiguous since she could be talking about both tauriel and fili. This could've also added some motivation for tauriel to help out her new friend kili. Since the two ladies would've been going together to help out the dwarfs.
3) Besides that, if they wanted to go with adding some womanz in the movie i don't understand why they didn't just make one of the dwarfs female since not all of them had that much character and not all were important contributing to the journey sort of characters. That could have easily worked as well i think, like, have her be the wife of one of the older dwarfs (them being a hapily maried older couple) and they have grown up kids. They could have used that to have a scene where they talk about raising kids with gloin (gimli's dad) and talk about the dificulty they had because they had trouble getting a stable home to raise them since there are so few dwarf settlements in middle earth (not sure wether or not the iron hills were a stable home or not but it's not overly establed in the lore (i think) so there would be room to imply this), giving gloin an uppertunity to talk about the mines of moria and to consider taking to his brother and cousins about it. They could have used that to develop the dwarfs a bit more as individuals set up some things for the LotR, add some not totaly pointless runtime by expanding on the dwarfs their homes and the individual characters, it would have also helped in making at least 2 dwarf characters pretty distinct (the married couple) without much effort (the things they were struggeling with anyways).
4) And those are just my probably awfull amateur ideas, but i think peter jackson could have made a decent hobbit trilogy if he'd had more time to get in a few re-writes to the scripts so the 3 movies were better paced since too little happens in the first 2 movies and way too much in the last one and they don't even tie up all the plot threads in the last movie. i do think they would have had to change a lot for it to work as a prequal to the LotR. and 2 movies would have been better, but i think 3 movies could have worked too but they didn't have scripts for 3 movies, they had scripts for 2 that they now suddenly needed to turn into 3 movies.
5) But yeah the studio most likely ruined those movies pretty badly, not all of it just look at the barrel scene, but most of the problems can be traced back to studio interference. And i feel bad for everyone involved that wanted to make good movies and put a lot of hart and effort in it but couldn't really get it right because the WB/studio didn't care.
TL;DR 1/2/3 my bad fanfic ideas for the hobbit - 4/5 i think 3 movies (2 would have most likely been better) could've worked if the the studio had given peter jackson the time and i feel bad for him and co. for all the shit the studio pulled.
Not only for him. Apperentley the hole making of the 3 Movies was a total nightmare for both the Filming Krew AND the Actors.
he is still the one thats responsible, i realy hate what they did to the book, but i respect jackson for atleast taking responsibility instead of acting like the audience is at fault here *cough* rian jonson *cough*
It's telling that the only films he's directed since this are documentaries. I think the experience of making these made him afraid to direct anything large scale ever again. Which is fine. Some of the small-scale stuff he did before LoTR was really good.
"Bring the twirly whirlys"
MarshallM09 lol
I never actually got around to watching the last hobbit film because i was so disappointed with the first one.... Is 'Twirly Whirlys' an actual line? I thought it was a joke!
@@jennivamp5 yes it is and it's honestly one of the better parts of the movie
@@elizataylor1726 😂😂😂😂
Cumberbatch chewing the CGI scenery is absoluely priceless.
You have to watch the motion capture behind the scenes for him
The speical effects are verry questionable
Hey, the guy was probably the only one having any fun during the production of this movie.
I never thought "gold sickness" was a curse or whatever else. It reads more like a deep greed, naturally sparked by a hoard of treasure such as an old dragon can build.
Pretty sure it was a commentary on the greed real-life man, but written as more of a curse.
Maybe it should have been Peter Jackson, or whoever decided to make this a trilogy of movies, sinking into the gold in that scene.
THANK YOU
That's pretty much what it is, greed by another name.
I thought that the gold sickness was a reference to how in Völsunga saga the dwarf Fáfnir, son of the dwarf king Hreiðmarr, became incredibly ill-natured and greedy after obtaining a large amount of gold. He also turned into a dragon, a symbol of greed. With Tolkien's interest in Norse mythology I feel like there are some clear influences there. But those are just my thoughts about the matter
I thought it was a pretty clear reference to the saga, both dragons even share the same weak spot on their belly in both the Hobbit and the original saga.
A thing that pissed me off (which you didn't mention, sorry btw) Is Kili and Fili's death. In the book, it clearly says they died trying to protect Thorin, because he was their mother's brother.
Im not a Tolkien expert, but he put weight behind the relationship between uncles and nephews/nieces - as seen with King Theoden and Éomer and Éowyn, who both remained loyal to him until the end - something old English and Nordic literature also states was highly important back in those times.
I think their deaths were a waste and could have been glorious heartbreaking, had they been done right.
Anyway - awesome video guys, keep up the good work!
This trilogy is so bad tho... It'd be hard to talk about every awful thing it did as an adaptation, as a narrative AND as a movie overall.
I agree! Im so impressed they managed to stick with one video - I know they could have made several XD
wait.....Fili did die at the movies ?
Yes. Grabbed and had his throat slit.
I liked the Tauriel-Kili story and honestly think they should have had Kili survive the film {they changed enough else!}.
Wow Calluna rolled a Nat 20 in stealth for that intro; unfortunately The Dom rolled a Nat 20 in perception.
At 42:15. I see you Critical Role poster!
Explain
@@intensellylit4100 In Dungeons and Dragons, 20-sided dice are used for ability checks. If you roll a natural 20 (that is, the dice coming up with 20 without any need for ability modifiers added to it to get that number), it's an automatic success. To determine if someone using stealth is successful, their stealth roll is compared to the perception of the person they're sneaking around. So Basically DarkMelodies 26 is saying that Calluna had great stealth, but because Dom also had great perception, it didn't work.
If you were instead asking for an explanation of Stephanie's comment about the poster, Critical Role is a popular Dungeons and Dragons livestream.
@@automaticdata thanks
I remember being pissed off at how the other dwarfs became minor characters in the movies.
Like, clearly Jackson and company took time to give each one a distinct look and personality (though you'd have to check out extended stuff to find that out) but then they all get brushed aside.
I really felt there should've been more. Like, he gives a hug to each one, and when he got to Bofur he says, "I wish you all the luck in the world. I really do." A call back to what Bofur said to Bilbo in the first film.
P.S. Congrats on Audible sponsorship. I'm surprised it took this long.
To be fair, it's kiind of the same thing that happens in the book: there are a couple that are important, the main ones, but most of them don't really do anything or have any personality at all, they exist as a collective group. Dwarves as a race have a bigger role, but individual dwarfs in the group are kinda pointless
@@altromonte15 The book was fairly short. Three hundred pages, I think. There, the lack of character is understandable. A trilogy of three hour movies though.......
You have Winestein to thank for rushing what meant to be 2 into 3
I'd recommend watching Lindsay Ellis' videos on the Hobbit movies. Very illuminating.
Archangel 717 And Weinstein calling for films to be made into 3 instead of two, shorter time release, and reshoots to have the infamous cringing love triangle.
The word orc does actually appear once in the hobbit I believe. When bilbo asked if they could go around Mirkwood Gandalf talked about how the grey mountains were filled with “goblins, hobgoblins, and ORCS of the worst description”
It also appears in the name Orcrist, translated as goblin cleaver, and in this paradraph "The passage was low and roughly made. It was not too difficult for the hobbit, except when, in spite of all care, he stubbed his poor toes again, several times, on nasty jagged stones in the floor. “A bit low for goblins, at least for the big ones,” thought Bilbo, not knowing that even the big ones, the orcs of the mountains, go along at a great speed stooping low with their hands almost on the ground."
As usual for reviews of this stuff, I'll add here: there's a lot of evidence that Thranduil's story (in the films) was supposed to be centered ENTIRELY on his never-ending grief over his slain wife. The diamond collection/necklace was supposed to be a memorial of some sort, thus explaining why he shows up with an army to take it in the film's prologue (and why Thror thought he could jack up the price after the fact). The glamor he wears on his face hides damage from dragonfire when unsuccessfully trying to save his wife. This also explains his "What do _you_ know of love?!" moment to Tauriel's little infatuation with the relative of the king who insulted the memory of his wife; and incidentally why he's extra-pissy toward Thorin. This also explains his change of heart when he sees Tauriel grieving so hard over that guy she briefly met: much to his (very reasonable) astonishment, she really did love him, and now must share a grief equal to Thranduil's, which is something he can respect. "Why does it hurt so much?" "Because it was real."
It's a shame they cut it out in favor of lame jokes about crossdressing and fat people.
It seems almost anything that was even remotely good either got left on the cutting room floor, or got stuck in writing room hell.
wow, that's SO MUCH BETTER THAN WHAT WAS ACTUALLY IN THERE!
My embarrassment at knowing this better plot existed but was scrapped is almost as big as my embarrassment about... everything else about these films. Was this plot put in before Peter came back on set and so everyone threw a trantrum and said it has too much of the old plan's smell on it so it had to get tossed? Political reasons is the only thing I can think of, other than them thinking 'old character love isn't cool' but then they have Gandalf and Galadriel... I'm so confused!
I don't think markings on Thranduil's face connect to his wife in any way. I think that this is a reminder of how old he is. He probably faced the dragons in older wars with Sauron.
A couple of corrections:
1. Elrond and Galadriel were members of the white council. Galadriel is mentioned as pushing for Gandalf to lead the council, but being over-ruled in favour of Saruman. I think the blue wizards had already gone east by this point.
2. Thorin's maddness was occasioned by the fact that Smaug had been sitting on the treasure for a long time. The curse affected him worse than anyone because of proximity and sense of entitlement. With the exception of Bilbo everyone is affected by the curse to some degree. The book does not explain how the spell was broken, but the implication is that Thorin's death and the fact that the gold is subsequently shared out help.
And the cursed gold was of course in reference to the story of Turambar and the Foaloke and the Nauglafring, although this theme was removed in later versions of Túrin's story.
Funfact: Smaug mentions that there's a myth that says Dragon's bellys were unprotected. Probably also in reference to Glaurung.
Yes, agreed. There were TWO White Councils. It's the Second White Council that had Elrond, Celeborn and Galadrial along with Radagast, Gandalf and Saruman. I'm not sure but the 2 blue wizards were part of the First White Council.
@@myridean2k4 Not exactly, it's more that Tolkien hadn't yet developed the White Council of 'The Lord of the Rings' at the time when he was writing 'The Hobbit'. The group that Gandalf was part of in 'The Hobbit' was simply referred to as "a great council of the white wizards". It's not until the Council of Elrond in 'The Fellowship of the Ring' that we learn that this was the White Council that included not just the Wizards but also Elrond, Galadriel, Cirdan and other Elf-lords.
EDIT: There was a previous Council of the Wise in the Second Age that opposed Sauron during the War of the Elves and Sauron. Many of the same Eldar would have been part of that "White Council" but not the Istari (wizards).
@@myridean2k4 the blue wizards are confusing as well in later writings arrived 2000 years before the other wizards and travelled easy but in earlier wringing such as the appendices of The ring trilogy they arrived along side the other 3 wizards and went east with Saruman bit they were never part of any council they more or less just disappear from records and memory
@@otaku-sempai2197 When Gandalf mentioned the blue wizards I got curiouse about who they were and hoped we would at least see them in that fight and got disappointed.
Mount Gundabadtouch.
I have decided that Bard's son is named Drab.
Did he get naming advice from dracula?
Officially my head cannon now.
Or how about Bord
It's Bane.
No, Skjald.
I agree with the Dom on Tauriel dying, and I think she and Bolg should have both died when she pushed him off the cliff.
While it wouldn't fix the rest of the movie, I think it would have been greatly improved if Tauriel had killed Bolg instead, since she had a strong reason to kill him after he killed Kili and it would have allowed for her to do something that actually impacts the plot rather than just being in a love triangle, plus it would have spared us the zero gravity Legolas fight scene.
Gertrud Bondesson I think I'm with you on that. It annoyed the heck out of me to see Legolas kill Bolg instead of Beorn. But even if they wanted to stick with their decision in keeping Beorn out of it, Tauriel finishing him off would've made more sense from this adaptation's stand point than Ol' Leggy-leggyGoldiLocks.
Pretty much everyone on the battlefield had a better motivation to kill Bolg than Legolas. Beorn was enslaved and tortured by Bolg in the adaption, Tauriel wanted revenge for Kili, all the other dwarves would probably also want to avenge their prince and Bard saw Bolg attack his home and kids in the second movie. By having Legolas kill Bolg they really went out of their way to to give us a fight with zero stakes and payoff, not just because Legolas is invincible, but also because he's one of the few main characters that didn't hold any previous grudge against Bolg.
Agreed - I really like Tauriel: the conclusion (or lack thereof) to her storyline was very disappointing.
@@blondbraid7986 Except Tauriel was down with Elven grief. She couldn't have fought even if she tried.
My guess about those giant Dune worm things is that they are the Nameless Things Gandalf mentioned in The Two Towers.
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things"
Those things wouldn't work together with Orcs though. They're more like Ungoliant or the Watcher in the Water, malevolent but independent entities.
Honestly i only watch these movies for bilbo and thranduil at this point. Their acting makes their characters and they steal every single scene their in. I mean in the first movie, after watching is for the 3rd time marathoning LOTR, I noticed Biblo looked away rather childish when Gandalf was lecturing Thorin about not wanted to go to Rivendale. HE WAS SMIRKING BECAUSE THORIN WAS GETTING YELLED AT! I burst out laughing because of that, his expressions are just...perfect. I feel like he really captures the childish essence of the story which is why I love him so much. and well....Thranduil is just great. nothing more to say there. Even if he didn't have the whole asshole make over, the actor they choose just LOOOVED the role.
Martin Freeman is a God-send. The movies get much better whenever they cut back to him.
These films really did have issues. On a happy note, really happy to see Calluna wearing the Evenstar. My wife wore her Evenstar replica and her Arwyn crown replica as part of her wedding outfit when we got married in 2011
"Orc" is a Common Tongue derivation from the Elven word for goblin ("orch," plural "yrch"). Goblins and orcs are essentially the same species, but various sub-species, races, or cultures of orcs developed. The Misty Mountain goblins were smaller and more cowardly, but no less malevolent and deadly when the numbers were on their side; the goblins infesting Moria were probably akin to them. Mordor orcs tended to be larger , tougher, and more aggressive. Uruk-hai were the result of Saruman messing around with ordinary orcs (probably from Moria), possibly by mingling the blood of orcs and men by some sorcerous means. Uruk-hai were the only orcs that could travel in full daylight without pain.
Also, I thought the two Blue Wizards had buggered off to the East to be never heard from again long before the events of the Hobbit.
Yeah, the Blue Wizards were never heard from again after heading East. Even their names are not known with certainty
The elk mount was pretty cool, it's one of the more positive impressions I have of this movie.
I got the feeling that they had Smaug give that long monologue before trying to kill Bard because, well, his death would’ve been even more anticlimactic if he was just shot dead at the start of the movie without uttering a single word. Sure it’s a bit cheesy and cliche, but it did make for a visually cool moment.
+
I love the moment when he lands down on the town to gloat at Bard, and the sound effects remind you that he's literally destroyed several homes just by planting his feet down.
Mount Gundabadvibes
Gundabadromance
Considering that in Return of the King they felt it was okay to cut out Saruman's death scene when that was necessary closure to the entire second movie, I'm honestly not surprised they cut critical stuff from this movie for the extended cut. Given that the first two movies didn't get much interest in their extended versions, I'm willing to bet the decision to cut plot critical stuff was literally just so they could convince people there was a real reason to buy the extended cuts.
It's not like Saruman's scene in RotK was good tho. In fact it was very short, abrupt and not satisfying at all. I prefer to not see what happened to Saruman and Grimma over spending time on a pace breaking scene in a movie with three endings.
but we already knew that he was beaten, the equibvalent to the stuff the hobbit did would be to show the march of the ents and as soon as isengard is in sight, cut to black, movie over
I was personally thinking that I literally didn’t even notice the abandoned plot threads because I gave so few fucks by the end.
Am I the only one who's just thinking "FINALLY HE'S TALKING ABOUT THE LAST ONE" or what?
Nope.
I was to
Not in the least
Yeah, me three. I know he said years ago that he never said anything about doing a Hobbit-Athon, but I guess we were kind of spoiled by him doing a Harry Potter-Athon and a Hunger Games-Athon prior to that.
They changed Dain's character completely. In the LotR books he is always described as calm, pragmatic, and somewhat calculating. Definitely someone who thinks before he acts, even though he can fight very well when he has to. Even in the Hobbit, where he only appears briefly, he never behaves like a madman, but rather as a skilled tactician who takes advantage of his opponents' weakness.
I advise everyone watch Lindsay ellis’ videos on the hobbit films, it shows how screwed stuff got behind the scenes
Strongly seconded--especially that third video! Holy _crap_ does it really put a damper on enjoying anything LotR-related!
Also recommend her reviews of the original LOTR to cheer you up afterwards
Drowsy19 I refuse to watch any video by Lindsey Ellis.
issac flores your loss
That essay series is amazing. But I think all her new videos are.
Mount Gundabadwolf.
Is that a Doctor Who reference? 💙💙
Yes. Yes, it is.
@@danielallen3454 Yay! :D I happen to be on the verge of finishing Series 1 (or whatever its proper name is; the 2005 rebirth of DW)! I decided the whole thing merits a rewatch as I've kind of dropped the ball over the past several years
It's well worth it!
As someone who's first chapter/non-Dr. Seuss book was The Hobbit, I can confirm that my love of books has not stopped since.
For all the faults of the scene in question, my mom actually liked the scene where the Elf soldiers leaped over the dwarven shielders to fight the orcs and actually teared up because she, a casual viewer, really liked the whole idea of two stubborn enemy races uniting to fight a single cause in an admittedly cool looking scene.
I like that scene, too. It's always nice when opposing sides decide to band together. Even if only for a little while
Making the Arkenstone the cause of Thorin's madness is actually a change I quite like. It deepens the unspoken implications that the Arkenstone is in fact one of the surviving Silmarils, which makes the Elves and Dwarves joining forces at the Battle of Five Armies all the more poetic, given that the reason the races hate each other so deeply is because of the same jewel. Sure, it very well might just be a really pretty diamond, but since the only part of the Legendarium Tolkien had worked on up to the point of telling his children the Hobbit as a bed time story was the Silmarillion, it makes a wonderful amount of sense
You know what bugs me the most about Tauriel being shoehorned in apparently solely to add in a female character (along with the accompanying unnecessary romantic subplot) is that there is already a potentially female character in there that they could have used!
Oin. One could make the argument that Oin (or even some of the other Dwarves as well, but Oin is the most obvious candidate in the Jackson films) is actually a female dwarf, disguised as a guy for the sake of traveling with non-Dwarves.
1) In the LoTR book appendixes (and as mentioned by Gimli to Eowyn in the movies), Tolkien states that there is a rumour that Dwarves are all men, and just sort of spring fully-formed from the rock, which of course is complete nonsense. They do have women; but Tolkien states that they aren't as common as the guys, being around 10% of births as I recall. But also, since they too have beards, to the uneducated eye they look a lot like the guys. This is exacerbated by the fact that, for safety, when the women travel, they will often pretend to be guys (as human women will and have often done irl as well as in numerous fantasy stories; it's not a new concept), so they aren't ever seen by outsiders as women. Also it sounds like Dwarven culture doesn't really have gender roles, as a lot of the women don't bother getting married and having kids, preferring to mine or smith or other usual Dwarven activities. So a female Dwarf disguised as a guy, doing guy things, especially when out and about in the larger world, is absolutely in canon.
2) Ori does have facial hair; but it is pretty scant for someone who seems to be trying to grow it out. He also seems to be physically slighter than the others, who are slightly protective towards him in the movies. This is played as him being the youngest of the Dwarves; but it could also read as them being aware that "he" is in fact "she".
3) There's a scene where all the Dwarves are in a group, being introduced to someone. Everyone else bows; but Ori (who is right up front) *curtseys*. This could just be played as nerves and a comic moment; but it could also be an automatic gesture by a female Dwarf in disguise.
4) This is a minor point, but in Moria, Gandalf mentions that he knows the writer of the history they find in Balin's tomb was Ori by his exceptionally neat handwriting, and tendency to write in Elvish letters, rather than using Dwarven runes. A minor point, but the neater handwriting and fancier lettering is in real life a stereotypically feminine trait.
Ori could have been turned into a disguised female character with a throw-away line or two, without making any changes whatsoever to the story as written (or filmed, to be honest), and with the bonus of making her as fully-fleshed a character as most of the other Dwarves are in the movie, and without her personality being turned into "she's the girl lol" or "she's the ridiculously-forced love-interest". And while still staying true to the canon.
--Mind you, I also would have loved to have seen Legolas just as a cameo in Mirkwood, rather than having an actual (forcefully-inserted) role in the Hobbit movies. Much as I love him (he was always my favourite in the books), they do him a disservice by bringing him in here and having him have such ultimately-positive interactions with the Dwarves (learning to respect them etc, which was such a large part of his character arc in the LoTR books and films), let alone having such stupid (and badly CGIed) Nintendo moves.
And as an aside, I've been a Tolkien fan since the late '70s or early '80s, and am female myself. I like Tauriel, she's a lot of fun; I just really disliked the forced romance, and the unnecessary padding of the plot they used her for. Why not just make one or two of the Dwarven party actually be women, in accordance with Tolkien's canon? Seems simpler, and also cooler, frankly.
She wouldn't have to be "in disguise," just that because of the beard, no one notices.
@@Visplight also good point
Many fanfic does just that.
well said.
Dwarf women were in short supply- I really doubt they'd send even one on a quest like this.
Heck, they're kept so under wraps that the ONLY female dwarf named in all Tolkien's work, was Thorin's sister, mother of Fili and Kili.
Quote of the day:
"Bring the twirly whirlies."
The term "goblin" is just a synonym for "orc" in Arda.
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@Elly van den Brink
Not entirely true.
All goblins are orcs but not all orcs are goblins.
To quote The Hobbit "The passage was low and roughly made. It was not too difficult for the hobbit, except when, in spite of all care, he stubbed his poor toes again, several times, on nasty jagged stones in the floor. “A bit low for goblins, at least for the big ones,” thought Bilbo, not knowing that even the big ones, the orcs of the mountains, go along at a great speed stooping low with their hands almost on the ground." So, Orcs are big goblins, goblins are little orcs. Or you can go elvish, and call the lot of them yrch.
The doms becoming a real youtuber. Getting sponcered by audible. Cant wait for fifty shades freed, sponcered by best feinds
As hilarious as that would be, I think an AdamandEvedotcom sponsorship would be more appropriate for 50 Shades Freed! 😂
"Sponsorship, Sponsored, Sponsor"
It's an S, not a C.
Sorry, that was bugging me XD
It'd be sponsored by Casper
@@matthewbibby8921 oops. Sorry.
The White Council is a little nebulous but the core membership is basically the Wizards (Istari sent by Manwe) and the greatest of the Elven Lords (definitely Elrond, Galadriel, and Cirdan). The Assault of the White Council on Dol Guldur is mentioned to be participated by the members who are there in the film...plus actual armies from Rivendel and Lorien.
I don't think the armies are explicitly mentioned?
I read it again, and I still can't see it... Rivendel and Lorien are mentioned, but more as targets for the Necromancer and his armies, if Dol Guldur and Smaug are not dealt with. There is nothing there about Rivendel and Lorien sending armies to fight at Dol Guldur.
The only army fight is during the War of the Ring, with Celeborn leading Lorien forces across the river to attack Dol Guldur.
Well, you have three Istari, one elf lord who is close to the eldest (created) living thing still in existence (Cirdan), potentially three Wise who were born in Aman (Galadriel, Celeborn and Glorfindel) and trained by the Valar (Galadriel we pretty much know for sure) and one 1/16th Maia with a Ring of Power (Elrond), trained by Eonwe, the Herald of Manwe himself. Not to mention that all of these badasses are around 6000+ years old. Given that Galadriel by herself demolished Dol Guldur (laid its pits bare) after the War of the Ring, and Glorfindel duelled a Balrog to death (and would have survived, too, if he had had a haircut beforehand, sigh, all that glorious hair) would you risk standing against them? :)
There is not really much in the way of hinting that Rivendel has an army in late Third Age (unlike a thousand years ago, against Angmar). Elladan and Elrohir do go out hunting orcs, but I think it was mentioned that they accompany the Rangers, not their own army. Certainly not thousands of elves. Lorien obviously has an army, but again, there is no mention anywhere that they joined in the attack. For that matter, is it said anywhere that Sauron has an ARMY at Dol Guldur? It is stated that if Erebor is not retaken, then sure, the army of Easterlings and Smaug would have swept through Eriador, but did he have an army in TA 2941? Gandalf seemed capable of waltzing in and out Dol Guldur easily enough.
Can you imagine a fate worse than dying in the extended edition?
The only positive thing I can say about the hobbit movie series: I love it when it's being the actual Hobbit story, but hate it when it tries to be LotR!
0:16 I'm desperately trying to think up a clever joke about why the Dom turned two pages at once on his book but nothing is coming to mind so I'm just gonna let it sit in the air and laugh at that mistake.
Airon Grinsfelder He was only skimming to remember what page he left on. He knew for sure he'd read those two pages. Bam! Reason!
The Battle Of The Five Armies did have to be its own movie, because Jackson wasn't given prep time and had to make most of the trilogy as he went along.
By the time he started filming the climax, he realised "oh fuck, I haven't got a fucking clue what this battle will be like" and asked the studio to let them make another movie just so he could have some time to figure things out.
I think they loved Billy Connolly SO MUCH that they refused to hire another actor and instead chose to CGI him instead. And if their defense, it is Billy freaking Connolly!
I'm still so salty that we will never get the Guillermo del Toro version of the Hobbit... that could have been the stuff of legends.... real costumes! REAL COSTUMES!!! (not saying the makeup in the Hobbit and the costumes aren't impressive for the human characters, but I'm talking about the monsters and stuff)
4:03 "It's almost like they given up at this point."
I never had any feeling that there's any "almost" about it.
The battle didn't seem to have any clear outcome, unless it was that after Thorin was mortally wounded every one else drifted away.
Concerning Connely. They tried to shoot with him in suit (There is video on RUclips of that) but his reumatism was too bad for him the finish shooting in suit. Sad but true.
Figured it had to be something to do with his health. Still think recasting would have been more logical than a full CGI character.
What I did love was them using up all of their swearing allowance on him, which was hilarious
Not only that, the make-up was so heavy you couldn't see him acting.
It's just so weird... Why even bother with facial prosthetics if you're not good at it.
The industry is just not the same without Rick Baker and Stan Winston.
In defense of Alfred's actor, I believe this was the first time he did film rather than stage acting and they just didn't correct him
this film should be called the hobbit: the bloating of the 5 pages.
I'll defend the Elk because it's a garish enough mount that I'd buy Elf-King riding something that explicitly showy.
Apparently they didn’t have the rights to the Blue Wizards apparently those were stuck with Silmarillion
Yeah, and I think there was a gag about it in the first movie, Gandalf says he can't remember their names.
There are multiple issues with the Blue Wizards. They are one of the greatest mysteries of Middle Earth and much and more of discussions was had about them. That said, we know they went to the east, which means into lands that we never visited in neither The Hobbit nor LotR. They also never were part of the White Council which was different from the group of Wizards, the Istari, which Dom seems to referring to.
Yeah, the Blue Wizards were never a significant part of events in Middle Earth - as of LotR's writing, they existed, had come to Middle Earth with the other Istari, but went off to do their own thing almost immediately. Late in Tolkien's life, he revisited them and changed them to having arrived much earlier (during the Second Age rather than ~1000 TA) and played a key role in Sauron's downfall by fostering rebellion in the East (and South), limiting the force Sauron could levy from the regions notionally under his control - and also giving them new names in line with their new roles. No idea whether that revision would have stuck, but it makes it even clearer that the White Council never included the Blue Wizards, and adds to the mystery and confusion surrounding them...
Alatar, Pallando (as I refer to them)
@@chrissonofpear3657 Alatar and Pallando are from Unfinished Tales, but they're Quenya and basically no one uses Quenya anymore.
Personally my favorite adaptation of The Hobbit is the 1977 Rankin Bass animated movie. But a large part of that is that seeing it on the Disney Channel back in 1992 introduced me to Tolkien and began my love of his work and fantasy in general.
i saw it when my dad showed it to me when I was about 10 or so. It confused me and I haven't gotten around to rewatching it since
+JarionSilverblades
My brother and i grew up with that movie! We always loved it long before Dad first read us the book, so there's a huge nostalgia factor there. Sill, I think it's a really good adaptation. I always thought it was one of those book-turned-musical things, like Mary Poppins, but then we read the book and I realized it was just loyalty to the songs in the book. Awesome! The movie was barely an hour long, some plenty was cut out-most notably Beorn and the Arkenstone. But what the kept, they put effort into doing it really well. I could go on, but suffice to say, that hour-long cartoon did a better job than three three-hour movies. Hmm…
Congrats on the audible sponsorship! Always love seeing you two together, hope the crossovers don’t end now that the Hobbit reviews have!
I heard he was saving the Lord of the Ring movies for later. Maybe the time is here?
"congrats"? He's shamelessly selling himself. if it was the bit at the end, I wouldn't mind - ads are not supposed to be sneaked into the video. But ooooh no, he had to put it at the start and cram it in the middle. He has a bloody patreon, what did the audible money went to? Crappy green screen?
@@piotrmil whats your problem with him getting some money, I don't personally know how much his making with patreon so I can't make a comment on that, but I don't see a problem with it. If a creator I like is getting the money he deserves I am just glad. Also, not sure if my memory is failing me, but after watching it I don't recall him cramming it in the middle, a reference at the beginning, and more info at the end- also giving discounts on audible for people, so it pretty nice. Making an income can be difficult as a youtuber, you have to deal with the issues of misuse of fair use, and other bothersome things like that, I can't see where you were going with the whole selling himself, when he said at the end it was actually something he liked and enjoyed. Hope you have a good day anyhow.
@@piotrmil get a job, hippy
Calluna’s face at being shut down in the beginning was such a mood.
The fact the "What They Left Out" sections aren't empty due to how short the book is and how long this "Hobbit" trilogy is really makes you realize that no one gave a fuck about making a good 'Hobbit' movie over New Line/Warner Bros.
"The Llama King Sees All!"
Caaaaaaarl!
The story of Legolas' mother was probably a bastardization of Celebrian's story.
I agree. Something else shifted over from LOTR to pad out The Hobbit trilogy.
The Dom: make sure you read the Hobbit before LOTR!
Me: ....oops, my bad
You can still do it in reverse but it's going to feel weird, because 'The Hobbit' really DOES have a much more childish\fairy tale vibe to it.
Yeah, made that mistake years ago when I picked up the books for the first time.
You can still read it in reverse. Canonically "The Hobbit" is Bilbo's crazy version of events he wrote in the Red Book.
I did read the Lord of Rings first, because I didn't knew of The Hobbit in that time, but it didn't bother me too much, since compared to other people, I got through "Concerning Hobbits" on the first (and a half read).
I was gifted the LoTR trilogy well before I even knew The Hobbit existed. LoTR and Harry potter were my first exposure to the worlds of fantasy.
If memory serves, the difference between orcs and goblins in Tolkien's work is simply linguistic. I seem to recall in The Hobbit, it states that goblins are called orcs by the elves
I think that's mostly right but at the same time I feel like I read somewhere that the goblins are basically orcs lite? Smaller and more like raccoon pests than legitimately threatening while the orcs were more of a threat and stuck in Mordor until LoTR
meh meh Sounds like rereading the books is in order. Not that an excuse is needed
There's a reference in the Hobbit that possibly distinguishes between regular goblins and larger orcs, but, generally, the consensus is that they're just different names for the same thing - the distinction has more to do with Gygax than Tolkien.
Gygax?
Gary Gygax, one of the main creators of Dungeons & Dragons.
One person to blame is Harvey Weinstein, he’s the one who wanted to rush the films, make what was meant to be 2 into 3, and forced love triangle. Much to the actress disapproval. And did you know that all the love triangle scenes are actually reshoots.
Heavens!
It's impressive that these films aren't even worse.
Mt. Gundabadtaste
I watched this last night but I want to watch it again! You and Calluna are positively adorable together, and her "awwwwww" gets me every time. Amazing in-depth and fascinating analysis! Also, congrats on the Audible sponsorship!
Are they a couple irl?
Yes, hence why The Dom says they live together now. They've been a couple since before their first crossover; they simply hadn't made the info public.
@@Rikrobat D'awwww. 💜
Ok, the whole love story thing was badly executed but I liked Tauriel and appreciated the idea of a dwarf-elf relationship because I'm a tall woman dating a very short man and usually movies just make fun of these relationships.
Watching it in the Cinema I turned to my Mother when the worms came out and sad " The spice must flow."
I know The Dom has always felt a bit iffy about covering LotR and wants it to be the last episode(s) he ever does, but I would like to see these two return to Middle Earth to cover those sometime maybe before he retires LIA. I'm particularly curious about their thoughts on the changes/additions made to the movies since I feel some of them were definitely positive for the purpose of the films. Wish I could say the same for most of The Hobbit's changes/additions =_=
Yes, I really liked some of the changes, especially the armors and weapons which were never described in detail in the books. Here they really create cultural identity.
Honestly Dom, do any sponsorships you want to. I think that we all totally get that it takes money to survive in the world and as an online creator you don’t exactly make the most livable wage and patreon is something not all of your followers will go to.
Take care of yourself and thank you for the great content!
Also....that gun show though 😉
27:30 bain son of bard the bowman, lord of dale. yes i am that guy.
Apparently Alfred's actor WAS a stage actor, not used to being in movies, and that is why he over acts everything, he is acting exactly as he would need to in a play, not a movie. Don't know why no one corrected him.
If I remember correctly, Beorn smashes into the flank of the goblin army and just goes ham like a maxxed out Skyrim character.
OK... Now that that's done and dusted. Are you and Calluna going to give your thoughts on the various Tolkien fan-edits out there and which ones are worth recommending?
I love Calluna so much she's so endearing and enthusiastic
I think one of the major issues with Battle of the Five Armies was that the writers all had their own pet plot lines and none of them were willing to call the others out on the fact that their plot lines were stupid. Philipa Boyens thought Aflred was hilarious and kept on insisting they put more of him in. Fran Walsh was a fan of the love triangle and pushed for all of the sappy romance scenes. Peter Jackson loved the cartoonish action scenes and kept on adding more and more at the expense of the epic/realistic action that made LotR great. Don't get me wrong, LotR had cartoonish action, but it was always limited to one or two sequences per battle, while Desolation of Smaug and Battle of the Five Armies was just non-stop video game action. All of this resulted in things like plot and character development being tossed out in order to make room for the pet plot lines.
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Well.... I never thought I'd find a ship that surpassed Elrond/Thranduil but I was wrong. Terrance/Thranduil... Hmmm
The first few seconds were hilarious and Calluna's reaction was priceless
Thank you Audible for the Gunshow!!!
I could name Bard's son, Bain, without looking it up. But full disclosure, I just took an upper-level literature course on the works of Tolkien over the summer, and remember Gloin offhandedly mentioning him to Frodo at Rivendell. Plus I did a lot of digging through the Appendices during the open book final exam.
That's more interesting than my just knowing his name via Lego.
I some times get confused and think he is called Bran because I have a book with someon called Bran and Bard's grandson is called Brand.
42:15 - Well, there's always the Rankin-Bass's HOBBIT
When I was a young human my mother read me the hobbit and the death of Thorin had me bawling my eyes out
Does it hurt to say "young man" or "young woman"?
@@alexandresobreiramartins9461 Hello I am young human, from Earth. Mother read me books when I was in the infant stage of our species and they appealed at my human emotions.
Have to say, watching those movies if you're a fan of The Hobbit must have been torturous. My respects go to you both. Wonderful series of reviews.
I watched them as someone who didn't like the Hobbit and, with the exception of the 3rd one, really liked em! :D
One of my friends who's really a huge Tolkien fan LOVES this movie. I'll never get it. I saw it with him having not read the Hobbit or even seen the first two movies and even I could tell something was wrong...
Can't believe I actually paid to watch these... Then again, the hype was too strong. I was sayin' to my self "the next one's gonna be good, the next one's gonna be good"... and yet every sequel was even worse.
Appendixes and Unfinished Tales receive several references.
I cowardly avoided most of the torture :D
Would you ever consider doing a quick review of The Hobbit Rankin Bass version?
Or the Ralph Bakshi version of Lord of the Rings?
Thatneslper yes please
The best version
or Ralph Baski's Fritz the Cat?
@@milesgreb3537 I definitely agree with that. Compared to these films, the original Rankin-Bass movie is still the most book accurate.
Thank you so much for part 3!!!! I've been looking forward to this for so long! 😊
Ah, I'm glad you guys finished this! Love watching you two together.
FINALLY someone that made youtube video about Hobbit Trilogy don't make hasty assumption that Aragon would be 10 years old. In the books yes, but not in films.
You two make a great team in LiA. Got my thumbs up for future collabs.
Glad to see the conclusion! I loved the other two Hobbit reviews from you two, it's a good day when I can watch another one.
I remember a brief mention in the book that dragons do have some effect on the treasure they owned so long as it was in their possession for a good long time
According to mythology dragon gold is famously tainted, and will contaminate those who seek it out.
This is a better third part than the battle of five armies
Looking back, and knowing the giant mess that was going on behind the scenes from day one with all the insanity between the greed of the studios, the lack of prep time Jackson had unlike the Lord of the Rings where he, what almost 2 years of prep work done before a single second of film was shot? Not to mention all the bad ideas he and the writers came up with. I think if we had had Fellowship of the Ring Peter Jackson and it was 2 movies, Part one is Shire to Mirkwood, Part two is Escaping Mirkwood to the end, the Hobbit could have been so much more as a faithful adaptation.
I love The Dom & Calluna collaborations! Hope to see many more!
What you show of Beorn the Skin-Changer entering the battle and using an Orc's body to trash their army is wonderful!
Gundabad is in the north, where the Iron Mountains and Misty Mountains meet. It's well established that their are large goblin/orc populations outside of Mordor
I thought orc was the elvish word for goblin. Like orcrist meaning goblin-slayer.
Yrch is the Sindarin word for them- Legolas uses that word in the books.
Orc is just a more adult word for goblin, hence Tolkien using that in LOTR.
Just through the opening of the video and I'm already LOVING this! Caluna is effing amazing at creepin'! 😂😂👍❤
I've heard about audible from several youtubers but honestly your recomendation was the only one that made me want to look it up.
The Hobbit Films were so messed up, it was the only time I would have left the theater, had it not been a Christmas Present and I didn't want to embarress the people that were with me.
Lol Calluna is totes adorbs fo sho, I’m a proud Patreon of both their channels hehe congratulations on the audible sponsorship, I LOVE audible, I’m one of those weirdos who listens to audiobooks in the car or when I’m cleaning instead of music. Also, congratulations on the next step in your relationship! Living together is a big move, cheers to you both!!
Sneakily listening to this while at work, so I'm finally noticing how really pleasant and soothing Calluna's voice is to listen to.
"this gunshow is brought by audible" i loved that hahah. I also use audible to distract myself at the gym, it's nice