My heart aches for Moroni in this Chapter 60 - you can feel his frustration, sheer exhaustion, his feeling of helplessness and betrayal as he's given everything he had and is only seeing the devastation around him - he has lost his perspective... how often as a mother of young children do we go through these exact feelings - not as a lack of faith but of fear that those we love the most are suffering because of our inadequacies, not being rational because of sheer exhaustion. And guess who jumps in and tags at every emotion, multiplying them countless times. Yep the adversary! What a beautiful reminder that no one is immune, and the importance of keeping perspective, not allowing this sheer exhaustion (I know I'm using this expression multiple times, but all mothers of young children will understand exactly what I mean!) to overwhelm and overcome us. Always fighting to keep perspective on all issues. And then Pahoran, what a beautiful, gentle soul this man has. Completely understanding the fight that his dear friend has and instead of crucifying him for his attack, does everything from soothing forgiving words, to advice on how to proceed and sending probably ill afforded help towards him. What lessons we can learn from these two great men, if we can relate them directly to experiences and situations in our own lives. Thank you Bro Halverston for this lesson!!!!
He has NOT lost his perspective. And fear is A Lack of Faith regardless of what that fear is about. Moroni was NOT motivated by FEAR! The Lord does not use a Spirit of Fear ever, and The Spirit WAS directing Captain Moroni’s hand in his letter. To believe otherwise is hell shaking us instead of us shaking hell. We just can’t have it both ways.
@@celenegunther9816 thank you for your thoughts. But have you not have fear in your life? Never ever? Moroni was a human and fear is a human quality as well ... I guess we will ask him when we get on the other side....
You are putting a modern day perspective on this. We have instant communication. In Moroni and Pahoran's time they communicated by letter and it may have been months since they had actually communicated. Moroni was trying to make sure that Pahoran recognized how critical the situation was.
Again, Isn’t it the purpose of scripture to adapt to our modern conditions?? How else would we understand what we’re supposed to do if we don’t adapt and learn from the past?? What would be the point of studying scriptures if we couldn’t relate to them??
@@ccmars9315 I agree in adapting to our conditions and the Moroni Pahoran dialogue is a perfect place to study that. I was attempting to show that in Book of Mormon times communication issues probably colored the dialogue and that we should not see that as character faults for Moroni.
I like your analysis of how to process their negativity to neutrality til possitivity is achieved 🙏 Pahoran and Moroni are real mature in spirit of Christ love ❤️
I am guilty of sending an angry email to someone and then after calming down I realize how emotionally charged my email was. Fortunately I can delete an angry email but once you mail an angry letter it is hard to take back. Thank goodness Pahoran was understanding.
Bro. Halverson, I love you and have listened and learned so much from your incites. Thank you. I’ve also shared them with my friends and family to their benefit. I want to share my testimony that Captain Moroni is everything Mormon testified that he was. I testify with all the fervor of my heart that he was a man possessed with ‘perfect understanding’. Every feeling revolts at his correspondence under these circumstances being used in such a way as this. I understand the points you are trying to make, and agree with them. Thank you. But using such a man as this as an example of ‘the other side of the coin principle’ is outside of reason and feeling. This is the second time this has been done. And I fear a third will break my heart.
I agree. I myself can't wait to meet Captain Moroni and thank him for his courage and testimony of Christ that was recorded in the Book of Mormon. His example of courage, unwavering faith and testimony has meant so much to me and helped me in so many different ways through out my life.
No one ever said CM was less. He was human and did make some false assumptions. Does that make him less? no, just in need of accurate info. I'm an empath and have always hated contention of any kind but your words have given me a second opinion to consider. I do know that Satan is the father of all contention but I never considered harsh words as a way to motivate. I also have wondered if the Kingmen were part of plot as it proved that the enemy was able to take many cities when CM was helping Pahoran. I'd love to hear what you have to say about that.
Nadine K One thought I had as I was thinking about what you said is, “Just because we hate contention does not mean we will never need to contend and defend.” I also think sometimes if we are not aware, we may use the ‘contention thing’ as an excuse not to act when we are being called upon to do so. The fear of ‘causing contention’ or rather being accused of being the cause of their contention distracts from the weightier matters. Maybe this is what is partly meant by being willing to lay down our life for our friend? It costs us to speak up and to speak freely and fearlessly. We embrace the outcome whatever it may be hoping we will be heard in the spirit we speak. But if not. I understand there are some who speak without restraint, but there are many more who restrain from speaking when they should. I also am reminded Nephi spoke plainly that we could not err or mistake his meaning and that his brothers accused him of being angry when he was,by Lehi’s correction to his brothers, speaking in the power of the spirit of truth. These are just thoughts coming as I type. Here are some thoughts I had early this morning prompted by some of yours. Keep in mind they are notes to myself I felt impressed to share with you. I’m in process of processing myself. Bridling passions: Moroni did not lose his cool. The scriptures do not say to have ‘no’ passions. They say passions should be bridled. A bridle turns or directs the horse. Moroni’s words were VERY DIRECT. The scriptures also say every idle word will be accounted for. Moroni has no problem taking responsibility for his words. They were not idly spoken. He saw no need to repent for them. They were the honest expression of his heart and mind. Also, we see examples in scripture where a Prophet has acknowledged his own weakness. The Prophet Joseph confesses his levity in youth. Nephi laments making room for the enemy of his soul. Moroni in the honesty of his great heart surely would have done the same. If weakness was indeed there, if a ‘mistake’ was made, it would have been for him to acknowledge it himself. Pahoran was not doing his duty. There were reasons for that. Emotional and spiritual intelligence and maturity are the very core of both of these men! Our Prophets are asking us to mature a little spiritually, and for good reason. These latter-days will call for it. They are also asking (pleading) with us to step forward in the courage of Mother Eve and with Her Vision. How can we speak, and offer the ‘help’ the brethren need from us, if when we speak boldly and with passion, we are viewed as if we have ‘a chink in our armor’ or a deficiency in our character or we’re ‘just losing it for a minute’ in a ‘moment if weakness’? No. Moroni’s strength is firm! His patience tried and tested and has had its perfect work. The Holy Ghost will tell us ‘all things which we should do and say when we ‘receive’ it. I fear many of us are prompted to speak boldly and hold back our portion for the fear of feelings being hurt or judgement being passed. Why? Because it is. And because they are. But it is not needful. Moroni did not have to be ‘careful’ with Pahoran. He was either the man he thought he knew or he was not. And he knew exactly how to find out quick. I fear we do not speak boldly thinking The Holy Ghost would not speak in any other tone but soft and sweet. I suppose He would speak as was necessary to the circumstance. We do not believe in a god without body parts or passions. The Lord knows what needs to be said and how it needs to be said. And if we are so fragile, perhaps He will withhold from us until we toughen up a little. And if we will worry so much about the judgements of men more than delivering the message he wants sent, he will find another who will speak what He wants said no matter the cost. Esteeming the opinion of God above the opinion of any and ALL OTHERS. The truth is hard for the guilty to hear. Pahoran was not guilty. He had no reason to be offended. But he had every need of being fortified. Captain Moroni happens to be an EXPERT at building up fortifications of cities and of men! You see I speak as if he is present, because spiritually he is. I am fortified by him: My house, my body, my Temple! He has inspired me to put off the natural man (in this case woman) and put on that armor he so expertly forged and donned himself first. I would follow and serve in his army because he serves the living God and fights that GOOD FIGHT! We see today justified fights not being fought for fear of a little ‘well-meaning’ disapproval. But what of the fight Timothy Ballard is fighting. I wonder how well he could do it if he were afraid one of us would see him act like a pedofile and speak like one in order to catch one or to draw one out. Perhaps patience has had her perfect work, and in becoming perfectly patient, we now are justified to speak freely and boldly and that because it is NOT in our refined natures to do so, it serves when we are directed to do it to turn about some soul who needed to be turned. My husband played football in college in his youth. It was back in the day when sacred garments were not the style we have now and his had drawn the attention of a fellow teammate in the locker room as he was dressing after a game. His team mate mocked them and he good naturedly bore with it for a time, but the teammate persisted. Though my husband’s physicality was not that of his teammate’s, his teammate suddenly found himself taken by the cuff and slammed against the lockers and with great passion and ‘in his anger’ this player was taught that sacred lines could be crossed and that they had been. My husband felt bad about that for years. But one day a man approached him with joy, asked his name, confessed he was that teammate who had been ‘sat down and taught’ and confessed because of that experience he had been brought to ‘examine himself’ and to ‘investigate’ the ‘thing’ that had brought about such passion in this ‘guy’. His wife embraced my husband with tears of gratitude freely flowing and they rejoiced together sharing the wonderful story of his conversion not just of faith, but of the man! Who now enjoyed life in abundance with his eternal family. We are moved upon by the Holy Ghost into action! He alone knows the hearts of men and what would ‘get through’ to them. We should do what is right to do in that circumstance with the feeling appropriate to it, and let the consequence follow. The Lord was ‘in His anger’ many times in scripture. He ‘hates’ sin. He’s fighting for our ‘eternal lives’. If we will not speak or act because it won’t look or sound ‘nice’ when The Lord needs us to, I wonder what the cost of it will be? We sing, “I’ll go where you want me to go, Dear Lord.” “I’ll say what you want me to say.” “I’ll do what you want me to do.” “I’ll be what you want me to be.” I wonder if we realize it is He that gets to decide all of those things. And that if we put up stakes for Him (as Joseph Smith says men are prone to do) then we will come short of His glory. These are the Latter-Days. There are battles to be fought and won. We must be ready to go and do and say and be. I pray we will. As The Lord directs. Come what may.
Thank you Brother Halverson. My husband and I had a great discussion from this video. We had totally opposite opinions starting the conversation. But as we discussed we found common ground and learning from this section. So much to always be learned from the scriptures. Thank you for your time each week.
I think the good Captain and his brother in arms Teancum get a lot of misunderstood grief with modern day readers of the Book of Mormon for what seem to be character flaws without the understanding of their positions and callings and the possibility of working within the guidance of the Spirit. While Moroni’s letter may have been misplaced accusation as far as Pahoran was concerned personally, (and Pahoran didn’t stew on it because he knew everything the good Captain was saying was correct, and Moroni used an encompassing plurality several times in his letter, suggesting he was addressing the government as a whole) it lacks no truth in its power and how it is applicable today since Mormon knew what we would need in recognizing insurrection within our country and Church, and which side we should be on. To use his letter as some sort of object lesson about how not to take offense when wrongly accused, we really miss out on the need to look at the deeper meaning of what he was saying. It is no less important today than it was then
I love your perspective on Moroni’s strengths and weaknesses. I wish this kind of perspective was applied to prophets also. We often apply infallibility to them. When we see weaknesses but also see the Lord’s working through them, we are looking through the Lord’s eyes more fully. I also see the wisdom of Mormon including these things. In another way. He is teaching us about the weaknesses of the world government . We should always be skeptical of government power and the motivation of what they do. Moroni points out his knowledge of how corruption of government works.
So many people I want to meet on the other side of the Veil. More and more I feel for Mormon, trying to stay in tune with the Spirit to know what the Lord feels is most important for me to know today. What kind of backstory on Pahoran may have had to be left out of the abridgement? I don't yet know, but hope to find out in an appropriate time. We focus on Moroni in these chapters, but what about this amazing man filling the highest political office in the land? A man who was secure enough within himself and his relationship with God that he could take a scorcher of a letter from someone in his inner circle and turn it to good. I admit that I have been wondering in this our time when our Captain Moroni would be called. Maybe what we need right now, and what we are getting is the wisdom and grace of Pahoran?
💭 maybe it’s our desire to think we can have cheap grace without Captain Moroni’s wisdom? Greatness calls for a Great response. Both men’s majesty opening our view, expanding our minds, and enlarging our hearts. No need to choose one or the other. These are men of God showing us His Ways. Both Men emulating and calling for Justice and Mercy where there is claim rightly.
Greg, It’s what I’m trying to point out. Moroni was exactly WITH the mark in that epistle. If we cannot see it, WE have missed the mark. We must be able to see why the Lord directed that to be said with that passion in that way or we cannot underStand all of the ways the Lord can, does, and will work when the need arises. We “put up stakes for God’ if we think He cannot be what is needed. Moses threw down a snake. The priests threw down 2. The Lord’s snake swallowed them whole. We see a ‘nice’ God in The Lord. But we cannot miss that He can be ‘not nice’ too. And that His purpose is wise in it if He does. His wisdom surpasses ours! And He knows how to spark the flame under His Captains to write in authentic anger! To suggest the Lord does not get angry is to not know the Scriptures. It is true weak men may try to use this to their gain, but just because they might does not excuse us from not acknowledging this emotion exists in the God we know! Do we really want a God without passion? Do we really want a God without anger where anger is the correct response? When we know Luke Warm will be spewed out of his mouth? Does not a God who loves perfectly have the opposite ability also at His hands? Would you also take Sorrow from us? These emotions all have their place. True they must be bridled but… Can we not consider what comes after the ... If anger is never allowed? For the trafficked child, the raped woman, the murdered in cold blood man, the countless atrocities? Can we look on such scenes and not be moved? Had Moroni NOT been made perfect in Christ? Had he NOT been Reborn of the Spirit? Had he NOT received the gift of the Holy Ghost in it’s fullness which tells a man ALL THINGS WHICH HE SHOULD DO AND SAY AND HOW HE SHOULD DO AND SAY THEM? How do you know he didn’t? Because it APPEARED to you that way? Why? Because you need him to be for flawed? Why? This is not me needing my leaders to be perfect. This is me NOT wanting A FALSE PRECEPT about a VALIANT MAN to be perpetuated because we in our NATURALMINDEDNESS cannot see THE DIVINE PURPOSES AT WORK HERE! We have The Pahoran Response BECAUSE OF The Captain Moroni HEART! And Pahoran would be the first to stop this ideology from persisting ! He rejoiced in Moroni’s letter! It revealed Moroni’s GREAT HEART! We use these things to throw out patronizing comments like we need to be stroked. I do NOT need to be patted on the arm with ‘a bless my little heart’ feel to it. I am earnest in my passion in this! Not just for Captain Moroni’s sake alone but for all who with like passion RISE up to RESCUE the helpless! And who Free the Bonds! I should hope I would be one of those! I admit I have yet to see if I am, as I have yet to truly have my life be put on the line for and in behalf of another human being. But I hope to find myself in possession of such valor if it is ever needed! I do not speak lightly. We ALL need to MATURE. We need to be able to speak freely without needing to be pampered. And we need to speak plainly that there can be no error or misunderstanding. This is why I persist. Because I do NOT want my words used in any other way than they were intended. And neither does Captain Moroni. We do him disservice if we do. I have been led here by The Spirit to sit at a teacher’s feet who has been inspired and prepared to teach. And I have been WELL TAUGHT! I have rejoiced and received and adjusted my thinking and my heart because of it. And when I also am inspired to say something, I hope to be heard with respect.. Ps And let’s just say your response to ‘mine epistle’ will state that I was mistaken as there was no offense in your heart intended. Would my response not be something like, “But don’t you see? Because of your letter, I was inspired to send mine and it is now on record for the benefit of my posterity forever!” Here is my testimony! Here are my thoughts 💭! Read them and see if here you find anything of value to you! Speak your mind children! And see what great things may be said, and what great things will come of it. And allow all others to do so safely that we may all be uplifted, edified, and corrected if the Spirit of the Lord so directs. Listen to LEARN. Speak and HOPE. Awake and Rise Up to Act! Defend Truth and Justice! Extend Mercy! But do NOT THINK Justice can be robbed. Perfect Understanding so you will Take Righteous Action. Again to be clear. Moroni made NO MISTAKE here. There is NO CHINK in his armor. This is NOT him displaying the other side of his coin. There is ONLY ONE SIDE to Moroni’s coin and it is A HEADS! Christ is HIS Coin. Or more appropriately In Christ we no longer need A COIN Our MONEY can be CHANGED Or rather COINS ARE NO LONGER NEEDED IN HIM WHO HAD ALREADY PAID THE PRICE FOR YOU! As you have or rather when you have AS MORONI HAS put off THIS WORLD for the THINGS OF A BETTER. COME! BUY MILK AND HONEY FOR NO PRICE! COME UNTO HIM!!! That’s the point of all of these lessons. To suggest MORONI HAD NOT is to NOT HAVE EYES TO SEE IT. So there it is. WHAT CAN I SAY MORE?
Can I say that I do not see what you do in this lesson. He was writing to Pahoran individually but really he was writing the government who had neglected the armies. Moroni was perfectly right in his letter. He had judged them perfectly well and wrote this in the spirit. The head of government were in league with their friends among the Lamanites for their own benefit. The Kingmen had been the cause of the war as one of the Kingmen was Ammoron. He already had fought the Kingmen once before they escaped to the Lamanites. He had suffered and watched many men die in battle while the head of government had neglected them on purpose. Pahoran really was partly to blame as he could have communicated to Moroni at any time over the months before this to let him know what was wrong at the head of government in Zarahemla. Rather he did neglect Moroni by dithering. I do feel Pahoran was generous of heart in response and loved Moroni's heart and was a good man, just lacking vision. He had months to see what was happening and chose to not share with Moroni or Helaman when he could have. I see Romney as an opposite to Moroni, so using him as an example is pretty political and tough to hear in this way.
Moroni was a desperate and exhausted military commander who wrote to Pahoran, his direct superior. He made incorrect assumptions - he was human! That does not mean he is any less an amazing individual. It is a relief to see that even the strongest can make mistakes!
@@MicheleBurstein Sorry I cannot agree with this at all. There was no mistake it just turns out Pahoran was not fully in the wrong and remained faithful. Moroni's letter to Ammoron was the same tone. We make allowances for politicians who are interested in their judgement seats rather than doing what was right. Pahoran had time and dithered. Mormon writing to us spoke of Moroni in glowing terms, not Pahoran. He did not name his son Pahoran. If all men... Then a few years later we see Pahoran's sons causing new political divisions. Yes Pahoran was righteous but placated the Kingmen for a long time due to "his" judgement seat. He cared about his judgement seat while Moroni cared only for the people and thought not on "his" position. Also where do we see that Moroni was inferior to Pahoran and taking orders from him? There was no communication between then on any regular basis so saying Pahoran was his superior is a leap in my opinion.
I have really loved all of your videos so far, however, I find that in your interpretations of the epistle of Moroni to Pahoran that I CANNOT agree with you. The first thing we must keep in mind to rightly understand this letter, is that Helaman had already written a letter of his own to Pahoan and the government. The second thing we must keep in our mind as we read, is that in verse one of chapter 60 Moroni states that he is writing AGAIN, so how many OTHER letters had Moroni ALREADY written? As of the time of THIS letter NONE of the other letters, including the one from Halaman had been answered. How many total letters had been sent with no answer having been received to any of them were there? ONE reason this letter is written the way we see it is because it is NOT the first letter. A second reason this letter is written the way we see it, is because the Holy Ghost was WITH Moroni helping him to UNDERSTAND things in the government that there was no way for him know EXCEPT through the Holy Ghost.! This letter IS the example of righteous indignation, of having been MOVED UPON by the Holy Ghost and NOT by anger as was addressed by you in the lesson before this one... A final point to keep in mind as we read this chapter, is that the REASON Pahoran was NOT angry and did NOT perceive it as an attack, is BECAUSE HE KNEW that Moroni was correct, that the Holy Ghost WAS with Moroni as he wrote this letter, and Pahoran AGREES with Moroni that he must come and “cleanse the inner vessel” that it IS a command from God! Context MATTERS, the context helps us UNDERSTAND the scripture we are studying, and when ALL the context is taken into account, NOW WE SEE this letter clearly and correctly, now we have a right understanding of what we see... I love and appreciate all you do in these lessons!! I am so grateful for the time and talent and truth you share with us, but I am deeply sorry that in this case I cannot agree with you...
HerbertAlfred Thank you for your response, and for being kind as you responded to me, I am grateful. First, at NO time did I say that it was Bro Halverson who suggested anger on the part of Moroni, I spoke to his interpretation of the anger Moroni said himself that he was feeling. Many times throughout this video the interpretation Bro Halverson put on the anger was negative, calling it a mistake on the part of Moroni, he was even at times reprimanding Moroni for his anger... Second, at NO time did I assume or even say that Pahoran received any of the letters written to him, I spoke to the fact that no RESPONSE to any of the letters that had been written by both Helaman and Maroni were received by them, not receiving a response, is NOT the same thing as Pahoran receiving the letters written to him. During war time messengers are killed and letters being carried are destroyed and never reach their destination, there are many reasons why Pahoran would never receive the letters to him, they could have even been intercepted by Pachus himself preventing Pahoran from knowing the dire situation both captains were in, THIS is why Pahoran even says that he is HAPPY to receive Moroni’s letter, and said that he had been WORRIED about him... Third, in the previous video Christ cleansing the temple was used as an example of being “moved upon by the Spirit” Moroni in this letter is having the SAME experience, how can we know this? Because he his giving Pahoran information about the government that it is not possible for him to know EXCEPT by the Spirit. He even says himself that he has been told by the Spirit to go cleanse the “inner vessel”, just like Christ was moved upon to cleanse the temple, Moroni is being moved upon to cleanse the government located in Zarahemla. At the time Moroni is writing he is not sure if Pahoran is part of the rebellion or not, which is why he takes the time to ask him, and just IN CASE Pahoran is, he also takes the time to warn him and let him know what will happen if he does not STOP IT. Moroni was NOT swallowed up in anger, he was NOT lashing out, the Spirit was moving upon him just like the Spirit moved upon the Deep in Genesis one, and moved upon Christ twice causing him to cleanse the temple twice, THIS IS what a letter looks like when the Spirit is with you, moving upon you and directing you, which is why Pahoran was NOT offended by the letter, which is why he was even HAPPY to receive the letter, which is why he AGREED with the letter and even told Moroni he was correct, that he must absolutely come and cleanse the government, that it was a commandment from God that he do so! Yes Moroni is a man, and is subject to human failings, but in THIS case that is NOT what is taking place, through prayer I have asked for a confirmation in MY interpretation of this letter, and I have received one, I invite you to see what happens when yo do the same... Again I would like to thank you for your kindness towards me, and I would like to ask you for your forgiveness if I have offended you in my response to you, I meant no harm, I only meant to address each point laid at my feet! ☺️
HerbertAlfred NO! He is NOT ‘just like us’! We NEED to become JUST LIKE HIM!!! Like Unto Moroni - Alma 48:11-13, 17. 17 Yea, verily, verily I say unto you, if all men had been, and were, and ever would be, like unto Moroni, behold, the very powers of hell would have been shaken forever; yea, the devil would never have power over the hearts of the children of men. .. Trying to make ourselves FEEL BETTER by saying he is goes contrary to TRUTH! We need to stop this LIE!!! Why? Because it is NOT TRUE!!! We need men who can shake hell itself! Not men who PRETEND it’s okay to be ‘where they’re at’ by making TRUE MEN like unto themselves so they can feel good about NOT RISING UP!!! If you can’t even see that Captain Moroni is not like YOU, then how can you EVER BECOME LIKE UNTO HIM?! Captain Moroni should NEVER BE USED like that!!! Every comment like this promotes complacency in a day where RIGHTEOUS ACTION is called for! Please STOP ✋ 🛑!!!
I’m such a Star Wars fan and I can’t help but compare Captain Moroni to my dear Captain Rex. Good leaders, good men. His dear friend, Lehi, would be Commander Cody. 🙂🤷♀️
If I think change happens too slow in the church, I remind myself how easy it is for me to do an “about face.” With an army, they have to be trained in order for it to be successful (I don’t think we as a church can perform this successfully, too many volunteers😂). It takes a semi-truck 8 lanes in order u-turn. And it takes a great amount of room for a large ship to turn (aka the old ship Zion) without tipping it over
We love our heros to be perfect at all times. They are, after all, a type and shadow of the Savior. So it’s hard to see Moroni missing the mark with his epistle to Pahoran. Through the years I’ve chalked up Moroni’s fire and brimstone to Ammoron as part of his “strategem” to elicit an emotional response and gain a tactical advantage prior to freeing the prisoners. But I had a hard time assigning the same motive to his unfair excoriation (based on imperfect information) of Pahoran. I find no pleasure in seeing a temporary flaw in Moroni’s character - just another recognition that none of us are perfect all the time. It does not diminish his standing in my eyes one bit. Based on the lessons learned, how grateful I feel to have a record of Moroni’s letter and the Heaven-inspired response from Pahoran. Thanks for sharing your terrific insights on this Bro Halverson!
Greg, It’s what I’m trying to point out. Moroni was exactly WITH the mark in that epistle. If we cannot see it, WE have missed the mark. We must be able to see why the Lord directed that to be said with that passion in that way or we cannot underStand all of the ways the Lord can, does, and will work when the need arises. We “put up stakes for God’ if we think He cannot be what is needed. Moses threw down a snake. The priests threw down 2. Meaning The Lord snake swallowed those whole. We see a ‘nice’ God in The Lord. But we cannot miss that He can be ‘not nice’ too. And that His purpose is wise in it if He does. His wisdom surpasses ours! And He knows how to spark the flame under His Captains to write in authentic anger! To suggest the Lord does not get angry is to not know the Scriptures. It is true weak men may try to use this to their gain, but just because they might does not excuse us from not acknowledging this emotion exists in the God we know! Do we really want a God without passion? Do we really want a God without anger where anger is the correct response? When we know Luke Warm will be spewed out of his mouth? Does not a God who loves perfectly have the opposite ability also at His hands? Would you also take Sorrow from us? These emotions all have their place. True they must be bridled but… Can we not consider what comes after the ... If anger is never allowed? For the trafficked child, the raped woman, the murdered in cold blood man, the countless atrocities? Can we look on such scenes and not be moved? Had Moroni NOT been made perfect in Christ? Had he NOT been Reborn of the Spirit? Had he NOT received the gift of the Holy Ghost in it’s fullness which tells a man ALL THINGS WHICH HE SHOULD SHOULD DO AND SAY AND HOW HE SHOULD DO AND SAY THEM? How do you know he didn’t? Because it APPEARED to you that way? Why? Because you need him to be for flawed? Why? This is not me needing my leaders to be perfect. This is me NOT wanting A FALSE PRECEPT about a VALIANT MAN to be perpetuated because we in our NATURALMINDEDNESS cannot see THE DIVINE PURPOSES AT WORK HERE! We have The Pahoran Response BECAUSE OF The Captain Moroni HEART! And Pahoran would be the first to stop this ideology from persisting ! He rejoiced in Moroni’s letter! It revealed Moroni’s GREAT HEART! We use these things to throw out patronizing comments like we need to be stroked. I do NOT need to be patted on the arm with ‘a bless my little heart’ feel to it. I am earnest in my passion in this! Not just for Captain Moroni’s sake alone but for all who with like passion RISE up to RESCUE the helpless! And who Free the Bonds! I should hope I would be one of those! I admit I have yet to see if I am, as I have yet to truly have my life be put on the line for and in behalf of another human being. But I hope to find myself in possession of such valor if it is ever needed! I do not speak lightly. We ALL need to MATURE. We need to be able to speak freely without needing to be pampered. And we need to speak plainly that there can be no error or misunderstanding. This is why I persist. Because I do NOT want my words used in any other way than they were intended. And neither does Captain Moroni. We do him disservice if we do. I have been led here by The Spirit to sit at a teacher’s feet who has been inspired and prepared to teach. And I have been WELL TAUGHT! I have rejoiced and received and adjusted my thinking and my heart because of it. And when I also am inspired to say something, I hope to be heard with respect.. Ps And let’s just say your response to ‘mine epistle’ will state that I was mistaken as there was no offense in your heart intended. Would my response not be something like, “But don’t you see? Because of your letter, I was inspired to send mine and it is now on record for the benefit of my posterity forever!” Here is my testimony! Here are my thoughts 💭! Read them and see if here you find anything of value to you! Speak your mind children! And see what great things may be said, and what great things will come of it. And allow all others to do so safely that we may all be uplifted, edified, and corrected if the Spirit of the Lord so directs. Listen to LEARN. Speak and HOPE. Awake and Rise Up to Act! Defend Truth and Justice! Extend Mercy! But do NOT THINK Justice can be robbed. Perfect Understanding so you will Take Righteous Action. Again to be clear. Moroni made NO MISTAKE here. There is NO CHINK in his armor. This is NOT him displaying the other side of his coin. There is ONLY ONE SIDE to Moroni’s coin and it is A HEADS! Christ is HIS Coin. Or more appropriately In Christ we no longer need A COIN Our MONEY can be CHANGED Or rather COINS ARE NO LONGER NEEDED IN HIM WHO HAD ALREADY PAID THE PRICE FOR YOU! As you have or rather when you have AS MORONI HAS put off THIS WORLD for the THINGS OF A BETTER. COME! BUY MILK AND HONEY FOR NO PRICE! COME UNTO HIM!!! That’s the point of all of these lessons. To suggest MORONI HAD NOT is to NOT HAVE EYES TO SEE IT. So there it is. WHAT CAN I SAY MORE?
I want to thank you for all of the time you spend on the lessons and your depth of knowledge. I enjoy them immensely. I am a little troubled as I have heard your analysis of Moroni's epistle to Pahoran ( and the others who governed the land which not only moroni but the other chief captains who were wicked) Moroni may have been wrong about Pahoran part in the disensions but he was right about the rest of the government. I dont believe this epistle was put in for us as and example of how not to behave. Though I do appreciate the possibility that that is the case. I felt a loss of the spirit as you over and over again attempted to point out the flaw you saw in Moronis character and letter. I Know you love Moroni as I do. So let's assume for a moment that the wording and strong language in the letter was not a huge mistake but perhaps that is what needs to be said for Pahoran to act. By Pahorans own admission he had not acted because he did not know what to do. Nor did it appear Pahoran asked for Moroni help until he was censured. Just some thoughts. Thank you and keep up the good work.
@CathClinnick He has NOT lost his perspective. And fear is A Lack of Faith regardless of what that fear is about. Moroni was NOT motivated by FEAR! The Lord does not use a Spirit of Fear ever, and The Spirit WAS directing Captain Moroni’s hand in his letter. To believe otherwise is hell shaking us instead of us shaking hell. We just can’t have it both ways.
How can I find these in a consecutive order so I can watch them in order. Love love these it helps me so very much in my thinking in a wider way to expound an learn as he relates yesterday and to day. He is very good
This is only the second video I have watched on your channel. I loved the first one. But I felt so guilty listening to this perspective of a prophet. I had to stop 15 minutes into it. That's just my perspective.
I enjoy your insights and watch you often. However, today my wife watched this week, and told me that you said something disturbing concerning Moroni. I have watched, and what I am hearing concerning your commentary Moroni, are you suggesting Moroni is lashing out at a prophet? And that this a weakness? Moroni is the chief captain and has witnessed the death of thousands of fellow citizens killed from their enemy. The deaths also include women and children. It is an assumption that the lack of support of the army is directed at Pahoran, the evidence of government corruption that Moroni is seeing is compelling. but in this case concerning Moroni's anger, I believe it is a righteous anger, and justified You are trying to paint Pahoran as a prophet, but he is civil authority, a governor, or president of their country. Pahoran is not a prophet or religious authority. So your emphasis to misdirected. Moron's anger is at the government, not a religious authority. I see both Moron's and Pahoran's heart are good and righteous. It is the governement's prime responsibility is to protect it's people, and they are not doing it, so I believe Moroni is justified challenging his authority. In my humble opinions,It is easy to judge other's intentions and goodness from the comfort and ease of an office or home, and to be a arm-chair general.
Bro. Halverson, we LOVE you and have gained so much by watching your videos. But Bro-it seems that each week you belabor various points more and more. Please consider editing these down significantly, without repeating yourself. Otherwise I’m afraid you’re going to lose us and, no doubt, many others. Not all ideas in each verse are equally valuable. Please focus on the most important ideas and make your points without going on and on and on. (Maybe we’re the only ones who are feeling frustrated. If so, please disregard this unsolicited advice.) Yours in the Covenant . . .
To: HerbertAlfred (and ALL others like-minded) NO!!! He is NOT ‘just like us’!!!! We NEED to become ‘just like him’!!! Like Unto Moroni - Alma 48:11-13, 17. 17 Yea, verily, verily I say unto you, if all men had been, and were, and ever would be, like unto Moroni, behold, the very powers of hell would have been shaken forever; yea, the devil would never have power over the hearts of the children of men. .. Trying to make ourselves FEEL BETTER by saying he is, goes contrary to TRUTH! We need to stop this LIE!!! Why? Because it is NOT TRUE!!! We need MEN (male and female) who can SHAKE hell itself! Not men (male or female) who PRETEND it’s okay to be ‘where they’re at’ by making TRUE MEN ‘like unto themselves’ so they can feel good about NOT RISING UP!!! If you can’t even SEE that Captain Moroni is NOT like YOU, then how can you ever become LIKE UNTO HIM?!!! Captain Moroni should never be used like that!!! Every comment like this only PROMOTES complacency in a day where RIGHTEOUS ACTION is being CALLED for!!! Please STOP ✋ 🛑!!!
I found it a great struggle to continue listening after you brought up a politician, as I found his lies during his run for president particularly distasteful. If not for your previous lessons and teaching I fear I would have simply left. Yes, we are all human but please, do not share your pride in particular politicians with us.
Isn’t it the purpose of scripture to adapt to our modern conditions?? How else would we understand what we’re supposed to do if we don’t adapt and learn from the past??
My heart aches for Moroni in this Chapter 60 - you can feel his frustration, sheer exhaustion, his feeling of helplessness and betrayal as he's given everything he had and is only seeing the devastation around him - he has lost his perspective... how often as a mother of young children do we go through these exact feelings - not as a lack of faith but of fear that those we love the most are suffering because of our inadequacies, not being rational because of sheer exhaustion. And guess who jumps in and tags at every emotion, multiplying them countless times. Yep the adversary! What a beautiful reminder that no one is immune, and the importance of keeping perspective, not allowing this sheer exhaustion (I know I'm using this expression multiple times, but all mothers of young children will understand exactly what I mean!) to overwhelm and overcome us. Always fighting to keep perspective on all issues. And then Pahoran, what a beautiful, gentle soul this man has. Completely understanding the fight that his dear friend has and instead of crucifying him for his attack, does everything from soothing forgiving words, to advice on how to proceed and sending probably ill afforded help towards him. What lessons we can learn from these two great men, if we can relate them directly to experiences and situations in our own lives. Thank you Bro Halverston for this lesson!!!!
Amen
He has NOT lost his perspective.
And fear is A Lack of Faith regardless of what that fear is about.
Moroni was NOT motivated by FEAR!
The Lord does not use a Spirit of Fear ever, and The Spirit WAS directing Captain Moroni’s hand in his letter.
To believe otherwise is hell shaking us instead of us shaking hell.
We just can’t have it both ways.
@@celenegunther9816 thank you for your thoughts. But have you not have fear in your life? Never ever? Moroni was a human and fear is a human quality as well ... I guess we will ask him when we get on the other side....
Thank you Bro Halverson for putting together your thoughts on Moroni and Pahoran. They are very helpful to me. Please keep making videos like this.
You are putting a modern day perspective on this. We have instant communication. In Moroni and Pahoran's time they communicated by letter and it may have been months since they had actually communicated. Moroni was trying to make sure that Pahoran recognized how critical the situation was.
Again, Isn’t it the purpose of scripture to adapt to our modern conditions?? How else would we understand what we’re supposed to do if we don’t adapt and learn from the past?? What would be the point of studying scriptures if we couldn’t relate to them??
@@ccmars9315 I agree in adapting to our conditions and the Moroni Pahoran dialogue is a perfect place to study that. I was attempting to show that in Book of Mormon times communication issues probably colored the dialogue and that we should not see that as character faults for Moroni.
Likening the scriptures to us is NOT the same as ‘wresting’ them. I feel they were wrested here.
Thank you, Glen.
@@ccmars9315 context is everything in understanding the scriptures. You'll understand the Lord better with full context.
I feel very uplifted and understand much more about Moroni and how this ancient history applies to our lives.
I like your analysis of how to process their negativity to neutrality til possitivity is achieved 🙏 Pahoran and Moroni are real mature in spirit of Christ love ❤️
Brother Halverson I enjoy your perspective and wisdom thank you for taking the time to put your videos together. Huge fan!
Very beautifully presented. It certainly stirred loving emotions. Thank you.
I am guilty of sending an angry email to someone and then after calming down I realize how emotionally charged my email was. Fortunately I can delete an angry email but once you mail an angry letter it is hard to take back. Thank goodness Pahoran was understanding.
Thank you, special the letter between Moroni and Pahoran, we just making sure how we just, blame other, always have two sides of story😍👏
Interesting that this letter was included. I love the way you have broken this down that we may all learn from this.
Can't go a day with listening, when too busy to read, I have you to bring me the spirit
Bro. Halverson, I love you and have listened and learned so much from your incites. Thank you. I’ve also shared them with my friends and family to their benefit.
I want to share my testimony that Captain Moroni is everything Mormon testified that he was. I testify with all the fervor of my heart that he was a man possessed with ‘perfect understanding’. Every feeling revolts at his correspondence under these circumstances being used in such a way as this.
I understand the points you are trying to make, and agree with them. Thank you.
But using such a man as this as an example of ‘the other side of the coin principle’ is outside of reason and feeling.
This is the second time this has been done. And I fear a third will break my heart.
I agree.
I agree.
I agree. I myself can't wait to meet Captain Moroni and thank him for his courage and testimony of Christ that was recorded in the Book of Mormon. His example of courage, unwavering faith and testimony has meant so much to me and helped me in so many different ways through out my life.
No one ever said CM was less. He was human and did make some false assumptions. Does that make him less? no, just in need of accurate info. I'm an empath and have always hated contention of any kind but your words have given me a second opinion to consider. I do know that Satan is the father of all contention but I never considered harsh words as a way to motivate. I also have wondered if the Kingmen were part of plot as it proved that the enemy was able to take many cities when CM was helping Pahoran. I'd love to hear what you have to say about that.
Nadine K
One thought I had as I was thinking about what you said is,
“Just because we hate contention does not mean we will never need to contend and defend.”
I also think sometimes if we are not aware, we may use the ‘contention thing’ as an excuse not to act when we are being called upon to do so.
The fear of ‘causing contention’ or rather being accused of being the cause of their contention distracts from the weightier matters.
Maybe this is what is partly meant by being willing to lay down our life for our friend? It costs us to speak up and to speak freely and fearlessly. We embrace the outcome whatever it may be hoping we will be heard in the spirit we speak. But if not.
I understand there are some who speak without restraint, but there are many more who restrain from speaking when they should.
I also am reminded Nephi spoke plainly that we could not err or mistake his meaning and that his brothers accused him of being angry when he was,by Lehi’s correction to his brothers, speaking in the power of the spirit of truth.
These are just thoughts coming as I type.
Here are some thoughts I had early this morning prompted by some of yours. Keep in mind they are notes to myself I felt impressed to share with you. I’m in process of processing myself.
Bridling passions:
Moroni did not lose his cool.
The scriptures do not say to have ‘no’ passions. They say passions should be bridled.
A bridle turns or directs the horse.
Moroni’s words were VERY DIRECT.
The scriptures also say every idle word will be accounted for.
Moroni has no problem taking responsibility for his words. They were not idly spoken.
He saw no need to repent for them. They were the honest expression of his heart and mind.
Also, we see examples in scripture where a Prophet has acknowledged his own weakness. The Prophet Joseph confesses his levity in youth.
Nephi laments making room for the enemy of his soul.
Moroni in the honesty of his great heart surely would have done the same.
If weakness was indeed there, if a ‘mistake’ was made, it would have been for him to acknowledge it himself.
Pahoran was not doing his duty.
There were reasons for that.
Emotional and spiritual intelligence and maturity are the very core of both of these men!
Our Prophets are asking us to mature a little spiritually, and for good reason. These latter-days will call for it. They are also asking (pleading) with us to step forward in the courage of Mother Eve and with Her Vision. How can we speak, and offer the ‘help’ the brethren need from us, if when we speak boldly and with passion, we are viewed as if we have ‘a chink in our armor’ or a deficiency in our character or we’re ‘just losing it for a minute’ in a ‘moment if weakness’? No. Moroni’s strength is firm! His patience tried and tested and has had its perfect work.
The Holy Ghost will tell us ‘all things which we should do and say when we ‘receive’ it. I fear many of us are prompted to speak boldly and hold back our portion for the fear of feelings being hurt or judgement being passed. Why? Because it is. And because they are. But it is not needful. Moroni did not have to be ‘careful’ with Pahoran. He was either the man he thought he knew or he was not. And he knew exactly how to find out quick. I fear we do not speak boldly thinking The Holy Ghost would not speak in any other tone but soft and sweet. I suppose He would speak as was necessary to the circumstance.
We do not believe in a god without body parts or passions. The Lord knows what needs to be said and how it needs to be said. And if we are so fragile, perhaps He will withhold from us until we toughen up a little. And if we will worry so much about the judgements of men more than delivering the message he wants sent, he will find another who will speak what He wants said no matter the cost. Esteeming the opinion of God above the opinion of any and ALL OTHERS.
The truth is hard for the guilty to hear. Pahoran was not guilty. He had no reason to be offended.
But he had every need of being fortified. Captain Moroni happens to be an EXPERT at building up fortifications of cities and of men!
You see I speak as if he is present, because spiritually he is. I am fortified by him: My house, my body, my Temple! He has inspired me to put off the natural man (in this case woman) and put on that armor he so expertly forged and donned himself first. I would follow and serve in his army because he serves the living God and fights that GOOD FIGHT!
We see today justified fights not being fought for fear of a little ‘well-meaning’ disapproval.
But what of the fight Timothy Ballard is fighting.
I wonder how well he could do it if he were afraid one of us would see him act like a pedofile and speak like one in order to catch one or to draw one out.
Perhaps patience has had her perfect work, and in becoming perfectly patient, we now are justified to speak freely and boldly and that because it is NOT in our refined natures to do so, it serves when we are directed to do it to turn about some soul who needed to be turned.
My husband played football in college in his youth. It was back in the day when sacred garments were not the style we have now and his had drawn the attention of a fellow teammate in the locker room as he was dressing after a game. His team mate mocked them and he good naturedly bore with it for a time, but the teammate persisted. Though my husband’s physicality was not that of his teammate’s, his teammate suddenly found himself taken by the cuff and slammed against the lockers and with great passion and ‘in his anger’ this player was taught that sacred lines could be crossed and that they had been.
My husband felt bad about that for years. But one day a man approached him with joy, asked his name, confessed he was that teammate who had been ‘sat down and taught’ and confessed because of that experience he had been brought to ‘examine himself’ and to ‘investigate’ the ‘thing’ that had brought about such passion in this ‘guy’. His wife embraced my husband with tears of gratitude freely flowing and they rejoiced together sharing the wonderful story of his conversion not just of faith, but of the man! Who now enjoyed life in abundance with his eternal family.
We are moved upon by the Holy Ghost into action!
He alone knows the hearts of men and what would ‘get through’ to them.
We should do what is right to do in that circumstance with the feeling appropriate to it, and let the consequence follow.
The Lord was ‘in His anger’ many times in scripture. He ‘hates’ sin. He’s fighting for our ‘eternal lives’.
If we will not speak or act because it won’t look or sound ‘nice’ when The Lord needs us to, I wonder what the cost of it will be?
We sing, “I’ll go where you want me to go, Dear Lord.” “I’ll say what you want me to say.” “I’ll do what you want me to do.” “I’ll be what you want me to be.” I wonder if we realize it is He that gets to decide all of those things. And that if we put up stakes for Him (as Joseph Smith says men are prone to do) then we will come short of His glory.
These are the Latter-Days.
There are battles to be fought and won.
We must be ready to go and do and say and be.
I pray we will.
As The Lord directs.
Come what may.
Thank you so much!
Thank you Brother Halverson. My husband and I had a great discussion from this video. We had totally opposite opinions starting the conversation. But as we discussed we found common ground and learning from this section. So much to always be learned from the scriptures. Thank you for your time each week.
By their fruits, ye shall know them.
I think the good Captain and his brother in arms Teancum get a lot of misunderstood grief with modern day readers of the Book of Mormon for what seem to be character flaws without the understanding of their positions and callings and the possibility of working within the guidance of the Spirit.
While Moroni’s letter may have been misplaced accusation as far as Pahoran was concerned personally, (and Pahoran didn’t stew on it because he knew everything the good Captain was saying was correct, and Moroni used an encompassing plurality several times in his letter, suggesting he was addressing the government as a whole) it lacks no truth in its power and how it is applicable today since Mormon knew what we would need in recognizing insurrection within our country and Church, and which side we should be on. To use his letter as some sort of object lesson about how not to take offense when wrongly accused, we really miss out on the need to look at the deeper meaning of what he was saying. It is no less important today than it was then
I love your perspective on Moroni’s strengths and weaknesses. I wish this kind of perspective was applied to prophets also. We often apply infallibility to them. When we see weaknesses but also see the Lord’s working through them, we are looking through the Lord’s eyes more fully. I also see the wisdom of Mormon including these things. In another way. He is teaching us about the weaknesses of the world government . We should always be skeptical of government power and the motivation of what they do. Moroni points out his knowledge of how corruption of government works.
Wow, you revealed topics that I have never heard addressed ! I Love your clarification!
“Seek first to understand, then to be understood.” - Stephen Covey and yet Pahoran was also doing this.
So many people I want to meet on the other side of the Veil. More and more I feel for Mormon, trying to stay in tune with the Spirit to know what the Lord feels is most important for me to know today. What kind of backstory on Pahoran may have had to be left out of the abridgement? I don't yet know, but hope to find out in an appropriate time. We focus on Moroni in these chapters, but what about this amazing man filling the highest political office in the land? A man who was secure enough within himself and his relationship with God that he could take a scorcher of a letter from someone in his inner circle and turn it to good. I admit that I have been wondering in this our time when our Captain Moroni would be called. Maybe what we need right now, and what we are getting is the wisdom and grace of Pahoran?
Thank you 🙏🏽 😊
💭 maybe it’s our desire to think we can have cheap grace without Captain Moroni’s wisdom? Greatness calls for a Great response. Both men’s majesty opening our view, expanding our minds, and enlarging our hearts. No need to choose one or the other. These are men of God showing us His Ways. Both Men emulating and calling for Justice and Mercy where there is claim rightly.
Greg,
It’s what I’m trying to point out.
Moroni was exactly WITH the mark in that epistle.
If we cannot see it, WE have missed the mark.
We must be able to see why the Lord directed that to be said with that passion in that way or we cannot underStand all of the ways the Lord can, does, and will work when the need arises.
We “put up stakes for God’ if we think He cannot be what is needed.
Moses threw down a snake.
The priests threw down 2. The Lord’s snake swallowed them whole.
We see a ‘nice’ God in The Lord.
But we cannot miss that He can be ‘not nice’ too. And that His purpose is wise in it if He does.
His wisdom surpasses ours!
And He knows how to spark the flame under His Captains to write in authentic anger!
To suggest the Lord does not get angry is to not know the Scriptures.
It is true weak men may try to use this to their gain, but just because they might does not excuse us from not acknowledging this emotion exists in the God we know!
Do we really want a God without passion?
Do we really want a God without anger where anger is the correct response?
When we know Luke Warm will be spewed out of his mouth?
Does not a God who loves perfectly have the opposite ability also at His hands?
Would you also take Sorrow from us?
These emotions all have their place. True they must be bridled but…
Can we not consider what comes after the ...
If anger is never allowed? For the trafficked child, the raped woman, the murdered in cold blood man, the countless atrocities?
Can we look on such scenes and not be moved?
Had Moroni NOT been made perfect in Christ?
Had he NOT been Reborn of the Spirit?
Had he NOT received the gift of the Holy Ghost in it’s fullness which tells a man ALL THINGS WHICH HE SHOULD DO AND SAY AND HOW HE SHOULD DO AND SAY THEM?
How do you know he didn’t?
Because it APPEARED to you that way?
Why?
Because you need him to be for flawed?
Why?
This is not me needing my leaders to be perfect.
This is me NOT wanting A FALSE PRECEPT about a VALIANT MAN to be perpetuated because we in our NATURALMINDEDNESS cannot see THE DIVINE PURPOSES AT WORK HERE!
We have The Pahoran Response BECAUSE OF The Captain Moroni HEART!
And Pahoran would be the first to stop this ideology from persisting
!
He rejoiced in Moroni’s letter!
It revealed Moroni’s GREAT HEART!
We use these things to throw out patronizing comments like we need to be stroked.
I do NOT need to be patted on the arm with ‘a bless my little heart’ feel to it.
I am earnest in my passion in this!
Not just for Captain Moroni’s sake alone but for all who with like passion RISE up to RESCUE the helpless! And who Free the Bonds!
I should hope I would be one of those!
I admit I have yet to see if I am, as I have yet to truly have my life be put on the line for and in behalf of another human being.
But I hope to find myself in possession of such valor if it is ever needed!
I do not speak lightly.
We ALL need to MATURE.
We need to be able to speak freely without needing to be pampered.
And we need to speak plainly that there can be no error or misunderstanding.
This is why I persist.
Because I do NOT want my words used in any other way than they were intended.
And neither does Captain Moroni.
We do him disservice if we do.
I have been led here by The Spirit to sit at a teacher’s feet who has been inspired and prepared to teach. And I have been WELL TAUGHT!
I have rejoiced and received and adjusted my thinking and my heart because of it.
And when I also am inspired to say something, I hope to be heard with respect..
Ps
And let’s just say your response to ‘mine epistle’ will state that I was mistaken as there was no offense in your heart intended.
Would my response not be something like, “But don’t you see? Because of your letter, I was inspired to send mine and it is now on record for the benefit of my posterity forever!”
Here is my testimony! Here are my thoughts 💭! Read them and see if here you find anything of value to you! Speak your mind children! And see what great things may be said, and what great things will come of it.
And allow all others to do so safely that we may all be uplifted, edified, and corrected if the Spirit of the Lord so directs.
Listen to LEARN.
Speak and HOPE.
Awake and Rise Up to Act!
Defend Truth and Justice!
Extend Mercy!
But do NOT THINK Justice can be robbed.
Perfect Understanding so you will Take Righteous Action.
Again to be clear.
Moroni made NO MISTAKE here.
There is NO CHINK in his armor.
This is NOT him displaying the other side of his coin.
There is ONLY ONE SIDE to Moroni’s coin and it is A HEADS!
Christ is HIS Coin.
Or more appropriately
In Christ we no longer need A COIN
Our MONEY can be CHANGED
Or rather COINS ARE NO LONGER NEEDED IN HIM WHO HAD ALREADY PAID THE PRICE FOR YOU!
As you have or rather when you have AS MORONI HAS put off THIS WORLD for the THINGS OF A BETTER.
COME! BUY MILK AND HONEY FOR NO PRICE!
COME UNTO HIM!!!
That’s the point of all of these lessons.
To suggest MORONI HAD NOT is to NOT HAVE EYES TO SEE IT.
So there it is.
WHAT CAN I SAY MORE?
So glad I am not the only one who sees that this letter was written while Moroni was filled with the Holy Ghost!!
Can I say that I do not see what you do in this lesson. He was writing to Pahoran individually but really he was writing the government who had neglected the armies. Moroni was perfectly right in his letter. He had judged them perfectly well and wrote this in the spirit. The head of government were in league with their friends among the Lamanites for their own benefit. The Kingmen had been the cause of the war as one of the Kingmen was Ammoron. He already had fought the Kingmen once before they escaped to the Lamanites. He had suffered and watched many men die in battle while the head of government had neglected them on purpose. Pahoran really was partly to blame as he could have communicated to Moroni at any time over the months before this to let him know what was wrong at the head of government in Zarahemla. Rather he did neglect Moroni by dithering. I do feel Pahoran was generous of heart in response and loved Moroni's heart and was a good man, just lacking vision. He had months to see what was happening and chose to not share with Moroni or Helaman when he could have. I see Romney as an opposite to Moroni, so using him as an example is pretty political and tough to hear in this way.
Hola Mexico! Thank you! Bullseye! Well said. Well received!
@@celenegunther9816 Thanks fellow traveller
Moroni was a desperate and exhausted military commander who wrote to Pahoran, his direct superior. He made incorrect assumptions - he was human! That does not mean he is any less an amazing individual. It is a relief to see that even the strongest can make mistakes!
@@MicheleBurstein Sorry I cannot agree with this at all. There was no mistake it just turns out Pahoran was not fully in the wrong and remained faithful. Moroni's letter to Ammoron was the same tone. We make allowances for politicians who are interested in their judgement seats rather than doing what was right. Pahoran had time and dithered. Mormon writing to us spoke of Moroni in glowing terms, not Pahoran. He did not name his son Pahoran. If all men... Then a few years later we see Pahoran's sons causing new political divisions. Yes Pahoran was righteous but placated the Kingmen for a long time due to "his" judgement seat. He cared about his judgement seat while Moroni cared only for the people and thought not on "his" position. Also where do we see that Moroni was inferior to Pahoran and taking orders from him? There was no communication between then on any regular basis so saying Pahoran was his superior is a leap in my opinion.
We are all entitled to our own opinions.
I have really loved all of your videos so far, however, I find that in your interpretations of the epistle of Moroni to Pahoran that I CANNOT agree with you.
The first thing we must keep in mind to rightly understand this letter, is that Helaman had already written a letter of his own to Pahoan and the government. The second thing we must keep in our mind as we read, is that in verse one of chapter 60 Moroni states that he is writing AGAIN, so how many OTHER letters had Moroni ALREADY written?
As of the time of THIS letter NONE of the other letters, including the one from Halaman had been answered. How many total letters had been sent with no answer having been received to any of them were there? ONE reason this letter is written the way we see it is because it is NOT the first letter.
A second reason this letter is written the way we see it, is because the Holy Ghost was WITH Moroni helping him to UNDERSTAND things in the government that there was no way for him know EXCEPT through the Holy Ghost.!
This letter IS the example of righteous indignation, of having been MOVED UPON by the Holy Ghost and NOT by anger as was addressed by you in the lesson before this one...
A final point to keep in mind as we read this chapter, is that the REASON Pahoran was NOT angry and did NOT perceive it as an attack, is BECAUSE HE KNEW that Moroni was correct, that the Holy Ghost WAS with Moroni as he wrote this letter, and Pahoran AGREES with Moroni that he must come and “cleanse the inner vessel” that it IS a command from God!
Context MATTERS, the context helps us UNDERSTAND the scripture we are studying, and when ALL the context is taken into account, NOW WE SEE this letter clearly and correctly, now we have a right understanding of what we see...
I love and appreciate all you do in these lessons!! I am so grateful for the time and talent and truth you share with us, but I am deeply sorry that in this case I cannot agree with you...
Yes! Yes! Yes!!! Thank you, Brenda!!!!
Me too. Your last paragraph. 🙏 again!
HerbertAlfred
Thank you for your response, and for being kind as you responded to me, I am grateful.
First, at NO time did I say that it was Bro Halverson who suggested anger on the part of Moroni, I spoke to his interpretation of the anger Moroni said himself that he was feeling. Many times throughout this video the interpretation Bro Halverson put on the anger was negative, calling it a mistake on the part of Moroni, he was even at times reprimanding Moroni for his anger...
Second, at NO time did I assume or even say that Pahoran received any of the letters written to him, I spoke to the fact that no RESPONSE to any of the letters that had been written by both Helaman and Maroni were received by them, not receiving a response, is NOT the same thing as Pahoran receiving the letters written to him. During war time messengers are killed and letters being carried are destroyed and never reach their destination, there are many reasons why Pahoran would never receive the letters to him, they could have even been intercepted by Pachus himself preventing Pahoran from knowing the dire situation both captains were in, THIS is why Pahoran even says that he is HAPPY to receive Moroni’s letter, and said that he had been WORRIED about him...
Third, in the previous video Christ cleansing the temple was used as an example of being “moved upon by the Spirit” Moroni in this letter is having the SAME experience, how can we know this? Because he his giving Pahoran information about the government that it is not possible for him to know EXCEPT by the Spirit. He even says himself that he has been told by the Spirit to go cleanse the “inner vessel”, just like Christ was moved upon to cleanse the temple, Moroni is being moved upon to cleanse the government located in Zarahemla. At the time Moroni is writing he is not sure if Pahoran is part of the rebellion or not, which is why he takes the time to ask him, and just IN CASE Pahoran is, he also takes the time to warn him and let him know what will happen if he does not STOP IT.
Moroni was NOT swallowed up in anger, he was NOT lashing out, the Spirit was moving upon him just like the Spirit moved upon the Deep in Genesis one, and moved upon Christ twice causing him to cleanse the temple twice, THIS IS what a letter looks like when the Spirit is with you, moving upon you and directing you, which is why Pahoran was NOT offended by the letter, which is why he was even HAPPY to receive the letter, which is why he AGREED with the letter and even told Moroni he was correct, that he must absolutely come and cleanse the government, that it was a commandment from God that he do so!
Yes Moroni is a man, and is subject to human failings, but in THIS case that is NOT what is taking place, through prayer I have asked for a confirmation in MY interpretation of this letter, and I have received one, I invite you to see what happens when yo do the same...
Again I would like to thank you for your kindness towards me, and I would like to ask you for your forgiveness if I have offended you in my response to you, I meant no harm, I only meant to address each point laid at my feet!
☺️
HerbertAlfred
NO! He is NOT ‘just like us’!
We NEED to become JUST LIKE HIM!!!
Like Unto Moroni - Alma 48:11-13, 17. 17 Yea, verily, verily I say unto you, if all men had been, and were, and ever would be, like unto Moroni, behold, the very powers of hell would have been shaken forever; yea, the devil would never have power over the hearts of the children of men. ..
Trying to make ourselves FEEL BETTER by saying he is goes contrary to TRUTH!
We need to stop this LIE!!!
Why?
Because it is NOT TRUE!!!
We need men who can shake hell itself! Not men who PRETEND it’s okay to be ‘where they’re at’ by making TRUE MEN like unto themselves so they can feel good about NOT RISING UP!!!
If you can’t even see that Captain Moroni is not like YOU, then how can you EVER BECOME LIKE UNTO HIM?!
Captain Moroni should NEVER BE USED like that!!! Every comment like this promotes complacency in a day where RIGHTEOUS ACTION is called for!
Please STOP ✋ 🛑!!!
brenda martin
Thank you again!
Well said!
I’m such a Star Wars fan and I can’t help but compare Captain Moroni to my dear Captain Rex. Good leaders, good men. His dear friend, Lehi, would be Commander Cody. 🙂🤷♀️
If I think change happens too slow in the church, I remind myself how easy it is for me to do an “about face.” With an army, they have to be trained in order for it to be successful (I don’t think we as a church can perform this successfully, too many volunteers😂). It takes a semi-truck 8 lanes in order u-turn. And it takes a great amount of room for a large ship to turn (aka the old ship Zion) without tipping it over
We love our heros to be perfect at all times. They are, after all, a type and shadow of the Savior. So it’s hard to see Moroni missing the mark with his epistle to Pahoran. Through the years I’ve chalked up Moroni’s fire and brimstone to Ammoron as part of his “strategem” to elicit an emotional response and gain a tactical advantage prior to freeing the prisoners. But I had a hard time assigning the same motive to his unfair excoriation (based on imperfect information) of Pahoran. I find no pleasure in seeing a temporary flaw in Moroni’s character - just another recognition that none of us are perfect all the time. It does not diminish his standing in my eyes one bit. Based on the lessons learned, how grateful I feel to have a record of Moroni’s letter and the Heaven-inspired response from Pahoran. Thanks for sharing your terrific insights on this Bro Halverson!
Moroni did not ‘miss the in his epistle’.
Moroni did NOT ‘miss the mark’ in his epistle.
Christ IS THE MARK
Greg,
It’s what I’m trying to point out.
Moroni was exactly WITH the mark in that epistle.
If we cannot see it, WE have missed the mark.
We must be able to see why the Lord directed that to be said with that passion in that way or we cannot underStand all of the ways the Lord can, does, and will work when the need arises.
We “put up stakes for God’ if we think He cannot be what is needed.
Moses threw down a snake.
The priests threw down 2. Meaning The Lord snake swallowed those whole.
We see a ‘nice’ God in The Lord.
But we cannot miss that He can be ‘not nice’ too. And that His purpose is wise in it if He does.
His wisdom surpasses ours!
And He knows how to spark the flame under His Captains to write in authentic anger!
To suggest the Lord does not get angry is to not know the Scriptures.
It is true weak men may try to use this to their gain, but just because they might does not excuse us from not acknowledging this emotion exists in the God we know!
Do we really want a God without passion?
Do we really want a God without anger where anger is the correct response?
When we know Luke Warm will be spewed out of his mouth?
Does not a God who loves perfectly have the opposite ability also at His hands?
Would you also take Sorrow from us?
These emotions all have their place. True they must be bridled but…
Can we not consider what comes after the ...
If anger is never allowed? For the trafficked child, the raped woman, the murdered in cold blood man, the countless atrocities?
Can we look on such scenes and not be moved?
Had Moroni NOT been made perfect in Christ?
Had he NOT been Reborn of the Spirit?
Had he NOT received the gift of the Holy Ghost in it’s fullness which tells a man ALL THINGS WHICH HE SHOULD SHOULD DO AND SAY AND HOW HE SHOULD DO AND SAY THEM?
How do you know he didn’t?
Because it APPEARED to you that way?
Why?
Because you need him to be for flawed?
Why?
This is not me needing my leaders to be perfect.
This is me NOT wanting A FALSE PRECEPT about a VALIANT MAN to be perpetuated because we in our NATURALMINDEDNESS cannot see THE DIVINE PURPOSES AT WORK HERE!
We have The Pahoran Response BECAUSE OF The Captain Moroni HEART!
And Pahoran would be the first to stop this ideology from persisting
!
He rejoiced in Moroni’s letter!
It revealed Moroni’s GREAT HEART!
We use these things to throw out patronizing comments like we need to be stroked.
I do NOT need to be patted on the arm with ‘a bless my little heart’ feel to it.
I am earnest in my passion in this!
Not just for Captain Moroni’s sake alone but for all who with like passion RISE up to RESCUE the helpless! And who Free the Bonds!
I should hope I would be one of those!
I admit I have yet to see if I am, as I have yet to truly have my life be put on the line for and in behalf of another human being.
But I hope to find myself in possession of such valor if it is ever needed!
I do not speak lightly.
We ALL need to MATURE.
We need to be able to speak freely without needing to be pampered.
And we need to speak plainly that there can be no error or misunderstanding.
This is why I persist.
Because I do NOT want my words used in any other way than they were intended.
And neither does Captain Moroni.
We do him disservice if we do.
I have been led here by The Spirit to sit at a teacher’s feet who has been inspired and prepared to teach. And I have been WELL TAUGHT!
I have rejoiced and received and adjusted my thinking and my heart because of it.
And when I also am inspired to say something, I hope to be heard with respect..
Ps
And let’s just say your response to ‘mine epistle’ will state that I was mistaken as there was no offense in your heart intended.
Would my response not be something like, “But don’t you see? Because of your letter, I was inspired to send mine and it is now on record for the benefit of my posterity forever!”
Here is my testimony! Here are my thoughts 💭! Read them and see if here you find anything of value to you! Speak your mind children! And see what great things may be said, and what great things will come of it.
And allow all others to do so safely that we may all be uplifted, edified, and corrected if the Spirit of the Lord so directs.
Listen to LEARN.
Speak and HOPE.
Awake and Rise Up to Act!
Defend Truth and Justice!
Extend Mercy!
But do NOT THINK Justice can be robbed.
Perfect Understanding so you will Take Righteous Action.
Again to be clear.
Moroni made NO MISTAKE here.
There is NO CHINK in his armor.
This is NOT him displaying the other side of his coin.
There is ONLY ONE SIDE to Moroni’s coin and it is A HEADS!
Christ is HIS Coin.
Or more appropriately
In Christ we no longer need A COIN
Our MONEY can be CHANGED
Or rather COINS ARE NO LONGER NEEDED IN HIM WHO HAD ALREADY PAID THE PRICE FOR YOU!
As you have or rather when you have AS MORONI HAS put off THIS WORLD for the THINGS OF A BETTER.
COME! BUY MILK AND HONEY FOR NO PRICE!
COME UNTO HIM!!!
That’s the point of all of these lessons.
To suggest MORONI HAD NOT is to NOT HAVE EYES TO SEE IT.
So there it is.
WHAT CAN I SAY MORE?
I want to thank you for all of the time you spend on the lessons and your depth of knowledge. I enjoy them immensely. I am a little troubled as I have heard your analysis of Moroni's epistle to Pahoran ( and the others who governed the land which not only moroni but the other chief captains who were wicked) Moroni may have been wrong about Pahoran part in the disensions but he was right about the rest of the government. I dont believe this epistle was put in for us as and example of how not to behave. Though I do appreciate the possibility that that is the case. I felt a loss of the spirit as you over and over again attempted to point out the flaw you saw in Moronis character and letter. I Know you love Moroni as I do. So let's assume for a moment that the wording and strong language in the letter was not a huge mistake but perhaps that is what needs to be said for Pahoran to act. By Pahorans own admission he had not acted because he did not know what to do. Nor did it appear Pahoran asked for Moroni help until he was censured.
Just some thoughts. Thank you and keep up the good work.
I have a few typos in there. Sorry about that.
Exactly. Thanks for your thoughts
Yes! The Spirit fled and grieved! I felt it also!
@CathClinnick
He has NOT lost his perspective.
And fear is A Lack of Faith regardless of what that fear is about.
Moroni was NOT motivated by FEAR!
The Lord does not use a Spirit of Fear ever, and The Spirit WAS directing Captain Moroni’s hand in his letter.
To believe otherwise is hell shaking us instead of us shaking hell.
We just can’t have it both ways.
How can I find these in a consecutive order so I can watch them in order. Love love these it helps me so very much in my thinking in a wider way to expound an learn as he relates yesterday and to day. He is very good
Click videos and there is the complete list there :)
This is only the second video I have watched on your channel. I loved the first one. But I felt so guilty listening to this perspective of a prophet. I had to stop 15 minutes into it. That's just my perspective.
Me too Donna!!! I literally could not continue.
I hope to not be deceived.
I am unable to find where to 'click below' to find part 3 of Alma 53-63. Can anyone help?
It may not have been uploaded at the time? It’s uploaded now
@@sophieclinnick95 Thank you.
I enjoy your insights and watch you often. However, today my wife watched this week, and told me that you said something disturbing concerning Moroni. I have watched, and what I am hearing concerning your commentary Moroni, are you suggesting Moroni is lashing out at a prophet? And that this a weakness? Moroni is the chief captain and has witnessed the death of thousands of fellow citizens killed from their enemy. The deaths also include women and children. It is an assumption that the lack of support of the army is directed at Pahoran, the evidence of government corruption that Moroni is seeing is compelling. but in this case concerning Moroni's anger, I believe it is a righteous anger, and justified You are trying to paint Pahoran as a prophet, but he is civil authority, a governor, or president of their country. Pahoran is not a prophet or religious authority. So your emphasis to misdirected. Moron's anger is at the government, not a religious authority. I see both Moron's and Pahoran's heart are good and righteous. It is the governement's prime responsibility is to protect it's people, and they are not doing it, so I believe Moroni is justified challenging his authority. In my humble opinions,It is easy to judge other's intentions and goodness from the comfort and ease of an office or home, and to be a arm-chair general.
Bro. Halverson, we LOVE you and have gained so much by watching your videos. But Bro-it seems that each week you belabor various points more and more. Please consider editing these down significantly, without repeating yourself. Otherwise I’m afraid you’re going to lose us and, no doubt, many others. Not all ideas in each verse are equally valuable. Please focus on the most important ideas and make your points without going on and on and on. (Maybe we’re the only ones who are feeling frustrated. If so, please disregard this unsolicited advice.) Yours in the Covenant . . .
Bro. Halverson, I can not find part one...can you send a link?
You are not the only ones
You are not alone in these feelings
To: HerbertAlfred (and ALL others like-minded)
NO!!! He is NOT ‘just like us’!!!!
We NEED to become ‘just like him’!!!
Like Unto Moroni - Alma 48:11-13, 17. 17 Yea, verily, verily I say unto you, if all men had been, and were, and ever would be, like unto Moroni, behold, the very powers of hell would have been shaken forever; yea, the devil would never have power over the hearts of the children of men. ..
Trying to make ourselves FEEL BETTER by saying he is, goes contrary to TRUTH!
We need to stop this LIE!!!
Why?
Because it is NOT TRUE!!!
We need MEN (male and female) who can SHAKE hell itself!
Not men (male or female) who PRETEND it’s okay to be ‘where they’re at’ by making TRUE MEN ‘like unto themselves’ so they can feel good about NOT RISING UP!!!
If you can’t even SEE that Captain Moroni is NOT like YOU, then how can you ever become LIKE UNTO HIM?!!!
Captain Moroni should never be used like that!!!
Every comment like this only PROMOTES complacency in a day where RIGHTEOUS ACTION is being CALLED for!!!
Please STOP ✋ 🛑!!!
I found it a great struggle to continue listening after you brought up a politician, as I found his lies during his run for president particularly distasteful. If not for your previous lessons and teaching I fear I would have simply left. Yes, we are all human but please, do not share your pride in particular politicians with us.
Isn’t it the purpose of scripture to adapt to our modern conditions?? How else would we understand what we’re supposed to do if we don’t adapt and learn from the past??
I also found it a great struggle to continue listening to this one. And I have not been able to listen further.