I love how Piper says “We want to NOT get it wrong”…I’m so sick of people saying “we’ll I just don’t think God would do that or I don’t think a good God would send people to hell or I don’t think…etc”. Quit thinking, get in the word, read the word and take the word for what it says (James 1:22), if you don’t agree with it then repent because this isn’t about your FEELINGS, this is about the glorification of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. Listen, many people think they are right with God but the truth of the matter is that what you believe matters, the doctrines you believe mean something and give light to where you may currently stand before God. If you are reading this and you hate the doctrine of Election, you have two options; Continue fighting God and his will and then die and go to hell OR accept God’s infallible word as truth, pray to God for spiritual discernment that you may better understand and thus grow closer in love to God.
I am not a Calvinist or an Arminian, but I would like to argue that Piper has missed the meaning of Romans 9 (and I have read his book, The Justification of God). My concern is simply to represent Paul's argument accurately. Romans 9-11 is not about the eternal salvation of all individuals at the end of time, it is about exactly what Paul says it is about in Romans 11:25, a partial and temporary hardening that has come upon some Jews so that Gentiles can be grafted into the covenant community. In chapter 9, Paul is saying that God's method in temporarily hardening some Jews, even though they are ethnically Jewish and claim to live by Torah, does not threaten His covenant faithfulness to the Jews. Over and over throughout Scripture, God shows a pattern of hardening sinners to persecute His chosen, so that God can show the glory of His salvation by rescuing His chosen from persecution. For example, God hardens Joseph's brothers to unjustly sell him to the Egyptians, so that by raising up Joseph, God can bring salvation to both Egyptians and Israelites (including Joseph's brothers). God hardens Pharaoh to unjustly persecute the Israelites, so that God can bring a salvation to the Israelites in the sight of all nations. God hardens the Jews and Gentiles to unjustly kill Jesus, so that by God's resurrection from the dead, God can offer salvation to Jews and Gentiles. Finally, God hardens Paul himself to persecute the church (in Acts 7), and it is because of Paul's persecution that the apostles go out into the rest of the world to preach the gospel (Acts 8). The fact that Paul is a vessel of wrath in Acts 7 does not disqualify him from becoming a vessel of honor is Acts 9. It is this narrative pattern that Paul is appealing to in Romans 9-11. The means by which God shows forth the gospel to the ends of the earth is through the dramatic rescue of His persecuted chosen. As sovereign author of history, this means that God hardens certain people for limited periods of time in order to persecute his chosen. But this temporary hardening does not mean they are disqualified from eternal salvation. God's fashioning of some vessels for dishonor (those who persecute the church) and some for honor is not the end, but the means God uses unto the end of executing His redemptive plan for all nations. It doesn't make sense to say that those Jews whom God is temporarily hardening are necessarily marked out for eternal damnation. Paul explicitly says otherwise. He says, "My heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation (10:1)." And, "They did not stumble so as to fall (11:11)." and, "God will graft them back in again if they do not continue in their unbelief, for He is able to graft them back into their own olive tree (11:23)." and "God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew (11:2)" and "if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead (11:15)."
Interesting subterfuge! This strange interpretation in distinction from that of John Piper is that God's purpose of election does not really stand at all (see Romans 9:11) in any eternal or final sense. He does not actually determine the destinies of his creatures but simply swaps the temporal blessings of men back and forth until they are able to figure out that they need to save themselves!?!? Wow! Some amazing Scripture twisting!
@@WPBruce You didn't really give any arguments against my interpretation of Romans 9-11. I quoted many parts of the text to support my view. Tell me where I went wrong. And I never said that people "figure out that they need to save themselves." Are you saying that if humans have the ability to resist God's salvation, that they therefore "save themselves" if they do not resist? Consider the following: Bob is trapped in the closet of a burning building, and Mike the firefighter comes bursting through the wall, picks up Bob, and begins to rush him out to safety. Bob realizes that he could shake himself off of Mike and burn in the building. So if Bob decides not to shake himself off of Mike, does he therefore "save himself"? Of course not. Mike saved him. Also, can you tell me how the Calvinist has any assurance of salvation? Calvinism asserts that though God has the power to save all people, He prefers to damn many people, if not most people, to hell. So what assurance does the Calvinist have that God prefers to save him? The Calvinist has no grounds for assurance in the character of God for his salvation, because God does not prefer to save everyone. There is every possibility that God prefers to damn him. Maybe God predestined him to think he is saved when he is not? The Calvinist’s only possibility of assurance is in his own subjective experience of his profession of faith. It is an anthropocentric assurance grounded in self. But if God prefers to save all people, that gives the Arminian an objective, theocentric grounding for assurance that the Calvinist does not have, for the Calvinist has no idea whether God prefers to elect him or not.
Excellent! It makes so much more sense to me now, even though I've believed in Reformed Theology for a few years - it is the children of promise who are elected - and we are children of promise through faith, just as Abraham was justified by faith. That means if God elects according to His promise, even Gentiles are chosen. This would have made SO MUCH sense to the Jews at the time, considering everyone would know the Jews were the chosen people of God - how then are the Gentiles also factored into God's choice? Because the PROMISE given to Abraham isn't by flesh but by FAITH. And because God's Word will not fail, He upholds His promise by saving a specific people rather than hoping they will believe. Thank you, Dr. Piper!
Oh, hello! I didn't realize you were that same guy. I'm no one "special" - just a housewife who LOVES the Lord and is an armchair theologian. :) I'm a blogger and a writer for Jesus - my real name is Becka Goings. I found your video by searching for people who have written out the Bible long-hand as I was interested in doing so. How long did it take you?
So ive known God since i was a little boy. Far before i can remeber. When i was a little boy i didnt know God intimately but i knew i loved him. There was something placed in me when i was a boy that i cant seem to get away from. I believe God gave me a great measure of faith in him. Unfortunately as i got older into my teens i turned to sin and drugs. Looking for love in all the wrong places. Looking to fill a void in my heart that only God can fill. Have had my ups and downs but God has done so many miracles in my life. I feel in some way that i was called when i was alittle boy and and sealed with The Holy Spirit. Ive sinned and had my consequences. Ive reaped the harvest that i sowed. But i camt get away from God. I always ran to the Master and the creator. And he has always sustained me! Predestination is biblical. Jesus was predetermined in Genesis. I just know God has had his hand upon me.
Fred Jr WOW , you just told my exact, testimony in short! I am truly blessed as you are . WITHOUT going in to details, i felt and went thru the same experiences by God since a little boy as well. I always loved him I've always thought about him as a boy without a doubt in my mind I never ever had to stop and think that maybe he didn't exist and I too went through the drugs and the consequences mainly everything you wrote I can write verbatim about myself. I've always ran back to the MOST HIGH the kings of KINGS, these past couple years been really up and downs and without getting into detail because this is a comment room , I've left HIM and I've come running back to HIM but each time I've been blessed ,that my heart has never turned WAX COLD,like so many others. in fact it has turned softer and I've become more humble. has it been like that for you too? I would like to talk to you through (RUclips messenger) but I'm still new to it I can't figure out a way to send you an invite but I've been praying for these past couple days for the MOST HIGH to put somebody that is truly HOLY SPIRIT FILLED Spirit as yourself, I can tell and I've been doing this alone for quite a while now because like Revelation says ""most churches will fall "" not destroyed but fall into ((corruption)) and ""deception"" is running rampid in all THEM . The ones in my whole state of Massachusetts, would you please reply?? by the way the account says Joe I have to fix it my name is ((JOHN )) not Joe and I have a wife and kids but they still live in the world and I refrained from it, not by burden but by the Holy Spirit took it all away , the garbage TV shows, the pornographic material on the internet ,he took it all away in one night but I still struggle with a couple of things that the Holy Spirit convicts me of which I'm truly thankful for and try to work on every single day by staying in the word ""keeps me out of the world "" can you please reply cuz I believe my prayers were answered and that you might have some answers to my questions as well as I might have some answers to your questions anyways either way God bless you I am still shocked about your words ""where my words verbatim"" ( word for word ) amen .this is the INVITE RUclips LINK MESSENGER youtu.be/addme/crvxtcDjHyvXcuAVR0MGU4laotSdfA IDK IF THAT WILL WORK BUT , YOU CAN TRY TO ACCEPT INVITE ,EITHER way you can reply , that would be " most greatful " 😁
A very good breakdown of the text. Its reassuring to know that God has a plan and saves people. However I find it very depressing to know that, there are some people who don't have a chance and will be damned for all eternity. Its hard to wrestle with and honestly it drives me up a wall.
Thank you for your lessons, you are helping me open my eyes to the Truth of God. One thing I still don't quite understand is WHY He chose me, and not Esau?
Bean Dar he chose you and not Esau because Esau really is the vessel of dishonor and Jacob is the vessel of honour. Esau is the end of the system and Jacob/Israel is the beginning thereof. The laws statutes and commandment were given to Israel only not to Esau/Edom so the promises belong to Israel only... now not all of Israel will be saved because it was prophesied that 2/3 will be cut off because they will not accept the truth.
I'd rather the end say, "God thus decides who will CONTINUE to rebel (or leave to their state of rebellion)..." because we are all rebelling until we are regenerated. He decides who he is going to effectually call and save from their rebelling, but he isn't forcing people to rebel because he decided that they are to rebel.
That's what the red cord means. It's also about establishing that he wants the jews to be a "plain people" instead of standing out like esau's descendants do with red hair.
8:31 "because of their sin": Well, that's confusing! A while ago, Piper has been emphasizing v.11 "… had done anything good or bad-in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:" Now, they are deserving, but then "had done anything good or bad." God made them deserving. Therefore, God is culpable!
Try watch this: '"Hate" as it is defined in the bible' posted by solarisgalrocks, uploaded on 5 Aug 2009, which takes the contradiction away and makes more sense to me. it's always good to go back to original text (Hebrew or Aramaic?) as much as possible when the English translation seems to fail it cause confusion or contradiction. Just my 2 cents' worth.
I love you Desiringgod website! and pastor john, I've learned so much, its been such a blessing!. but I have to disagree on this.. i know i could be wrong, i have been more than plenty.. Could this be a way of looking at predestination? Romans 8:29-30 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be mthe firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. Could it be that, "Those whom He foreknew" means that those whom He foreknew would accept and believe and know about the Son, He predestined?? I don't think that God would pick some people to Go to Hell and others to heaven. Its absolutely unfair. I believe He has given us all equal opportunity, but since He forknew who would believe in Him before the creation of the world. He Has predestined us for heaven. and to enjoy Him and creation forever? Cause if predestination as it seemed to be described by Calvinism, is true, then we have nothing to worry about, and no need to worry about spreading the gospel, because one way or another they're getting saved. If electio as described by calvinism were the cased, then we would need to present the gospel differently maybe ask people, "Have you been elected?, lets find out." but i don't think its that way, we are spreading the good news, when we preach the gospel. not taking a survey. I just find it hard, to fit this doctrine into reality. it makes it much more constrained. like a piece of a puzzle that doesn't fit.
eazeetarget I get your point. Understood, are you saying that the reason that we need to, as Jesus commanded His disciples, "Preach the Gospel to every creature." is because We are simply doing Gods work of calling the elected? If that is the case I disagree, what is there to say about. John 3:16 For God so loved the world. . . That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish. And John 3:17 also says For God did not send His son to condemn the World. But that the world might be saved through Him. We also have 2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." and, Romans 10:12 -13 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For t“everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
If John Piper says that we are saved by God before we believe it means that we are raised unto Faith which is not biblical for the Bible says that we are raised through faith Col 2:12.I think He made a mistake and Jacob was elected to the Service And nothing less or more than that.
The Scriptures reveal to us that God provided us a path to take, for "all who will believe" and "desires that all should be saved" and yet if we take this passage to mean individual election, then it is solely on God's head that all are not saved. What I find in Ephesians is that God elected everyone, in Christ, unto salvation. Those who place their faith in Christ, will be destined for heaven and the fruit of that faith is the works of love shown to others around us. Reading on to Romans 10-11 reveals that Paul was not talking about individuals unto predetermined election as God chooses people out, but a message of salvation to ALL as explained in the passages. Salvation as God laid it out is provisional, not deterministic, at least as applied to individuals choosing him or not. The only deterministic part is what will happen for those who do place their faith in Christ vs those who do not.
Sounds predetermistic. In that case, no need to preach, just go to those that God gives to believe, period. Those that God already condemns from Day 1, no need to try.... In that case, nobody needs to try to believe or work on his salvation because he might be the one that God hy as already condemn from Day 1.... 😢
Jasmine Liew I suspect that you have strayed into what is referred to as "Hyper-Calvinism." There were those of this mindset that tried to deter a man who would become a missionary to India by saying God knows who are His; therefore, there is no need to preach the gospel to them. The Bible flatly contradicts this; it states that we are to preach to everyone. It is not up to us as to what the response will be. To paraphrase Paul: I planted [preached], Apollos watered, but God caused the increase.
John Piper.. how is God good if he chooses some to rebel and then send them to eternal punishment for what God himself wanted? The rebels then accomplish God’s will and still be punished for that? Why twist God’s word so much???
So I'm the answer to your prayer early in the video. Short & way better answer(s) is- #1God refers to the nation Israel as "Jacob" several times, & Jacob also had his name changed to Israel. "Esau" was used to reference another tribe as well. #2 esau never served Jacob, read Genisis all you want that didn't happen. Those are good indicators that God wasn't talking about a person rather a people. If you're still curious as to why he hates the people of esau it's because they were pagans. Lol
And this is why I am not a Calvinist. You spent the whole past two videos and most of this one doing an excellent outline of the text which points to the election of Israel. You then suddenly switched to saying this applies to salvation, But you didn’t support how this evidence is found in Romans nine. You made an inference. Inference is not evidence. As a student of the word, you should know better than this and you should know that this is how a lot of dangerous theology starts. Follow the text, not your ideology.
❤AMEN.....THANK YOU MY LORD AND KING👑✝️👑🤗👑🙏🏾💝🌷
I love how Piper says “We want to NOT get it wrong”…I’m so sick of people saying “we’ll I just don’t think God would do that or I don’t think a good God would send people to hell or I don’t think…etc”. Quit thinking, get in the word, read the word and take the word for what it says (James 1:22), if you don’t agree with it then repent because this isn’t about your FEELINGS, this is about the glorification of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. Listen, many people think they are right with God but the truth of the matter is that what you believe matters, the doctrines you believe mean something and give light to where you may currently stand before God. If you are reading this and you hate the doctrine of Election, you have two options; Continue fighting God and his will and then die and go to hell OR accept God’s infallible word as truth, pray to God for spiritual discernment that you may better understand and thus grow closer in love to God.
Very true
I am not a Calvinist or an Arminian, but I would like to argue that Piper has missed the meaning of Romans 9 (and I have read his book, The Justification of God). My concern is simply to represent Paul's argument accurately. Romans 9-11 is not about the eternal salvation of all individuals at the end of time, it is about exactly what Paul says it is about in Romans 11:25, a partial and temporary hardening that has come upon some Jews so that Gentiles can be grafted into the covenant community. In chapter 9, Paul is saying that God's method in temporarily hardening some Jews, even though they are ethnically Jewish and claim to live by Torah, does not threaten His covenant faithfulness to the Jews.
Over and over throughout Scripture, God shows a pattern of hardening sinners to persecute His chosen, so that God can show the glory of His salvation by rescuing His chosen from persecution. For example, God hardens Joseph's brothers to unjustly sell him to the Egyptians, so that by raising up Joseph, God can bring salvation to both Egyptians and Israelites (including Joseph's brothers). God hardens Pharaoh to unjustly persecute the Israelites, so that God can bring a salvation to the Israelites in the sight of all nations. God hardens the Jews and Gentiles to unjustly kill Jesus, so that by God's resurrection from the dead, God can offer salvation to Jews and Gentiles. Finally, God hardens Paul himself to persecute the church (in Acts 7), and it is because of Paul's persecution that the apostles go out into the rest of the world to preach the gospel (Acts 8). The fact that Paul is a vessel of wrath in Acts 7 does not disqualify him from becoming a vessel of honor is Acts 9.
It is this narrative pattern that Paul is appealing to in Romans 9-11. The means by which God shows forth the gospel to the ends of the earth is through the dramatic rescue of His persecuted chosen. As sovereign author of history, this means that God hardens certain people for limited periods of time in order to persecute his chosen. But this temporary hardening does not mean they are disqualified from eternal salvation. God's fashioning of some vessels for dishonor (those who persecute the church) and some for honor is not the end, but the means God uses unto the end of executing His redemptive plan for all nations.
It doesn't make sense to say that those Jews whom God is temporarily hardening are necessarily marked out for eternal damnation. Paul explicitly says otherwise. He says, "My heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation (10:1)." And, "They did not stumble so as to fall (11:11)." and, "God will graft them back in again if they do not continue in their unbelief, for He is able to graft them back into their own olive tree (11:23)." and "God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew (11:2)" and "if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead (11:15)."
CrossCountryRunner dude thank you so much for your input! God bless :)
Now THIS answers my deepest questions. Thank you for taking the time to write this!!
Wow very cool
Interesting subterfuge! This strange interpretation in distinction from that of John Piper is that God's purpose of election does not really stand at all (see Romans 9:11) in any eternal or final sense. He does not actually determine the destinies of his creatures but simply swaps the temporal blessings of men back and forth until they are able to figure out that they need to save themselves!?!? Wow! Some amazing Scripture twisting!
@@WPBruce You didn't really give any arguments against my interpretation of Romans 9-11. I quoted many parts of the text to support my view. Tell me where I went wrong.
And I never said that people "figure out that they need to save themselves." Are you saying that if humans have the ability to resist God's salvation, that they therefore "save themselves" if they do not resist? Consider the following: Bob is trapped in the closet of a burning building, and Mike the firefighter comes bursting through the wall, picks up Bob, and begins to rush him out to safety. Bob realizes that he could shake himself off of Mike and burn in the building. So if Bob decides not to shake himself off of Mike, does he therefore "save himself"? Of course not. Mike saved him.
Also, can you tell me how the Calvinist has any assurance of salvation? Calvinism asserts that though God has the power to save all people, He prefers to damn many people, if not most people, to hell. So what assurance does the Calvinist have that God prefers to save him? The Calvinist has no grounds for assurance in the character of God for his salvation, because God does not prefer to save everyone. There is every possibility that God prefers to damn him. Maybe God predestined him to think he is saved when he is not? The Calvinist’s only possibility of assurance is in his own subjective experience of his profession of faith. It is an anthropocentric assurance grounded in self. But if God prefers to save all people, that gives the Arminian an objective, theocentric grounding for assurance that the Calvinist does not have, for the Calvinist has no idea whether God prefers to elect him or not.
Excellent! It makes so much more sense to me now, even though I've believed in Reformed Theology for a few years - it is the children of promise who are elected - and we are children of promise through faith, just as Abraham was justified by faith. That means if God elects according to His promise, even Gentiles are chosen. This would have made SO MUCH sense to the Jews at the time, considering everyone would know the Jews were the chosen people of God - how then are the Gentiles also factored into God's choice? Because the PROMISE given to Abraham isn't by flesh but by FAITH. And because God's Word will not fail, He upholds His promise by saving a specific people rather than hoping they will believe. Thank you, Dr. Piper!
Oh, hello! I didn't realize you were that same guy. I'm no one "special" - just a housewife who LOVES the Lord and is an armchair theologian. :) I'm a blogger and a writer for Jesus - my real name is Becka Goings. I found your video by searching for people who have written out the Bible long-hand as I was interested in doing so. How long did it take you?
Do you know of a good church in the Portland area?
Excellent series John... Thank you.
So ive known God since i was a little boy. Far before i can remeber. When i was a little boy i didnt know God intimately but i knew i loved him. There was something placed in me when i was a boy that i cant seem to get away from. I believe God gave me a great measure of faith in him. Unfortunately as i got older into my teens i turned to sin and drugs. Looking for love in all the wrong places. Looking to fill a void in my heart that only God can fill. Have had my ups and downs but God has done so many miracles in my life. I feel in some way that i was called when i was alittle boy and and sealed with The Holy Spirit. Ive sinned and had my consequences. Ive reaped the harvest that i sowed. But i camt get away from God. I always ran to the Master and the creator. And he has always sustained me! Predestination is biblical. Jesus was predetermined in Genesis. I just know God has had his hand upon me.
youtu.be/addme/FY5SDmjSCgVnkmuiuWWlyNymHwO8Sw
Fred Jr WOW , you just told my exact, testimony in short! I am truly blessed as you are . WITHOUT going in to details, i felt and went thru the same experiences by God since a little boy as well. I always loved him I've always thought about him as a boy without a doubt in my mind I never ever had to stop and think that maybe he didn't exist and I too went through the drugs and the consequences mainly everything you wrote I can write verbatim about myself. I've always ran back to the MOST HIGH the kings of KINGS, these past couple years been really up and downs and without getting into detail because this is a comment room , I've left HIM and I've come running back to HIM but each time I've been blessed ,that my heart has never turned WAX COLD,like so many others. in fact it has turned softer and I've become more humble. has it been like that for you too? I would like to talk to you through (RUclips messenger) but I'm still new to it I can't figure out a way to send you an invite but I've been praying for these past couple days for the MOST HIGH to put somebody that is truly HOLY SPIRIT FILLED Spirit as yourself, I can tell and I've been doing this alone for quite a while now because like Revelation says ""most churches will fall "" not destroyed but fall into ((corruption)) and ""deception"" is running rampid in all THEM . The ones in my whole state of Massachusetts, would you please reply?? by the way the account says Joe I have to fix it my name is ((JOHN )) not Joe and I have a wife and kids but they still live in the world and I refrained from it, not by burden but by the Holy Spirit took it all away , the garbage TV shows, the pornographic material on the internet ,he took it all away in one night but I still struggle with a couple of things that the Holy Spirit convicts me of which I'm truly thankful for and try to work on every single day by staying in the word ""keeps me out of the world "" can you please reply cuz I believe my prayers were answered and that you might have some answers to my questions as well as I might have some answers to your questions anyways either way God bless you I am still shocked about your words ""where my words verbatim"" ( word for word ) amen .this is the INVITE RUclips LINK MESSENGER youtu.be/addme/crvxtcDjHyvXcuAVR0MGU4laotSdfA IDK IF THAT WILL WORK BUT , YOU CAN TRY TO ACCEPT INVITE ,EITHER way you can reply , that would be " most greatful " 😁
Hey I have had sort of the same experience
@@Matt-ox2qc right on! Gods got his hand on you brother. Know it. Understand it. And chase after what God has for you in his plan!
A very good breakdown of the text. Its reassuring to know that God has a plan and saves people. However I find it very depressing to know that, there are some people who don't have a chance and will be damned for all eternity. Its hard to wrestle with and honestly it drives me up a wall.
Me too
The real question is why does God save anyone at all?
@@ShepherdMinistry why doesn’t a God (who has the capacity save )everyone choose not to ?
@@MSpilot008 Because God is just and has to punish sin.
@@ShepherdMinistry So God arbitrarily chooses some people suffer forever and allows some to have eternal life ?
Thank you for your lessons, you are helping me open my eyes to the Truth of God. One thing I still don't quite understand is WHY He chose me, and not Esau?
Bean Dar he chose you and not Esau because Esau really is the vessel of dishonor and Jacob is the vessel of honour. Esau is the end of the system and Jacob/Israel is the beginning thereof. The laws statutes and commandment were given to Israel only not to Esau/Edom so the promises belong to Israel only... now not all of Israel will be saved because it was prophesied that 2/3 will be cut off because they will not accept the truth.
This is not the traditional biblical interpretation of Romans 9. Keep searching!
I'd rather the end say, "God thus decides who will CONTINUE to rebel (or leave to their state of rebellion)..." because we are all rebelling until we are regenerated. He decides who he is going to effectually call and save from their rebelling, but he isn't forcing people to rebel because he decided that they are to rebel.
It's about rejecting primogeniture and encouraging the smartest and most tricky to gain power in a family.
That's what the red cord means. It's also about establishing that he wants the jews to be a "plain people" instead of standing out like esau's descendants do with red hair.
thank you
8:31 "because of their sin": Well, that's confusing! A while ago, Piper has been emphasizing v.11 "… had done anything good or bad-in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:" Now, they are deserving, but then "had done anything good or bad." God made them deserving. Therefore, God is culpable!
Try watch this: '"Hate" as it is defined in the bible' posted by solarisgalrocks, uploaded on 5 Aug 2009, which takes the contradiction away and makes more sense to me. it's always good to go back to original text (Hebrew or Aramaic?) as much as possible when the English translation seems to fail it cause confusion or contradiction. Just my 2 cents' worth.
I'm gonna post the link because that was a great suggestion and an awesome video. It really brought clarity.
ruclips.net/video/xJqSKmn4MR4/видео.html
God bless..i have a question..which bible version are you using?
I love you Desiringgod website! and pastor john, I've learned so much, its been such a blessing!. but I have to disagree on this.. i know i could be wrong, i have been more than plenty..
Could this be a way of looking at predestination?
Romans 8:29-30
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be mthe firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Could it be that, "Those whom He foreknew" means that those whom He foreknew would accept and believe and know about the Son, He predestined??
I don't think that God would pick some people to Go to Hell and others to heaven.
Its absolutely unfair. I believe He has given us all equal opportunity, but since He forknew who would believe in Him before the creation of the world. He Has predestined us for heaven. and to enjoy Him and creation forever?
Cause if predestination as it seemed to be described by Calvinism, is true, then we have nothing to worry about, and no need to worry about spreading the gospel, because one way or another they're getting saved.
If electio as described by calvinism were the cased, then we would need to present the gospel differently maybe ask people, "Have you been elected?, lets find out."
but i don't think its that way, we are spreading the good news, when we preach the gospel. not taking a survey. I just find it hard, to fit this doctrine into reality. it makes it much more constrained. like a piece of a puzzle that doesn't fit.
Justpassing through You speak as if you know who is saved and unsaved. We do not know who God has elected therefore we need to spread the gospel.
eazeetarget I get your point.
Understood, are you saying that the reason that we need to, as Jesus commanded His disciples, "Preach the Gospel to every creature." is because We are simply doing Gods work of calling the elected?
If that is the case I disagree, what is there to say about.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world. . . That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish.
And John 3:17 also says
For God did not send His son to condemn the World.
But that the world might be saved through Him.
We also have 2 Peter 3:9
"The Lord is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
and,
Romans 10:12 -13
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For t“everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
That is hard to swallow, so in essence God is the one who says who will go to heaven and he'll. We do not have a choice? Is that what your saying?
What software are you using? I like what I am seeing
All Israel shall be saved.
Q the "rebel" in one of the statements towards the end means 'rejection' of Christ, correct?
If John Piper says that we are saved by God before we believe it means that we are raised unto Faith which is not biblical for the Bible says that we are raised through faith Col 2:12.I think He made a mistake and Jacob was elected to the Service And nothing less or more than that.
The Scriptures reveal to us that God provided us a path to take, for "all who will believe" and "desires that all should be saved" and yet if we take this passage to mean individual election, then it is solely on God's head that all are not saved. What I find in Ephesians is that God elected everyone, in Christ, unto salvation. Those who place their faith in Christ, will be destined for heaven and the fruit of that faith is the works of love shown to others around us.
Reading on to Romans 10-11 reveals that Paul was not talking about individuals unto predetermined election as God chooses people out, but a message of salvation to ALL as explained in the passages. Salvation as God laid it out is provisional, not deterministic, at least as applied to individuals choosing him or not. The only deterministic part is what will happen for those who do place their faith in Christ vs those who do not.
Romans 11:25-27
As well as faith? 2:54?
it is about the election of Israel.
Sounds predetermistic. In that case, no need to preach, just go to those that God gives to believe, period. Those that God already condemns from Day 1, no need to try.... In that case, nobody needs to try to believe or work on his salvation because he might be the one that God hy as already condemn from Day 1.... 😢
Jasmine Liew I suspect that you have strayed into what is referred to as "Hyper-Calvinism." There were those of this mindset that tried to deter a man who would become a missionary to India by saying God knows who are His; therefore, there is no need to preach the gospel to them. The Bible flatly contradicts this; it states that we are to preach to everyone. It is not up to us as to what the response will be. To paraphrase Paul: I planted [preached], Apollos watered, but God caused the increase.
We are appointed for good works. That will be done.So it's not I that hold on to the Lord, it's the Lord that holds on to me. Very comforting
John Piper.. how is God good if he chooses some to rebel and then send them to eternal punishment for what God himself wanted? The rebels then accomplish God’s will and still be punished for that? Why twist God’s word so much???
Should’ve called this video the mystery of Calvinistic election.
So I'm the answer to your prayer early in the video.
Short & way better answer(s) is-
#1God refers to the nation Israel as "Jacob" several times, & Jacob also had his name changed to Israel.
"Esau" was used to reference another tribe as well.
#2 esau never served Jacob, read Genisis all you want that didn't happen.
Those are good indicators that God wasn't talking about a person rather a people.
If you're still curious as to why he hates the people of esau it's because they were pagans. Lol
Who is Esau
Interpreting this passage in favor of individual election to salvation makes no sense when you read on through Romans 10 and 11.
And this is why I am not a Calvinist. You spent the whole past two videos and most of this one doing an excellent outline of the text which points to the election of Israel. You then suddenly switched to saying this applies to salvation, But you didn’t support how this evidence is found in Romans nine. You made an inference. Inference is not evidence. As a student of the word, you should know better than this and you should know that this is how a lot of dangerous theology starts. Follow the text, not your ideology.