Barrel Tuning/Harmonic's (Basic Overview)
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- Опубликовано: 11 сен 2020
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Here on 4AW we try to answer/acknowledge/thank all the comments, thank you.
That said, not all are equal, Supporters (financial) and Customers get preferential treatment, go figure!
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I would have to say that Mark is a master at what he does as is Sam at what she does. I take Great pleasure in watching these videos as they are presented in a way that is completely understandable to everyone and are based on a complete mastery of the subject. There is no condescension or down talking. Mark is a Great teacher and informer. I would Love to sit in a weekend seminar of his if they ever choose to do something like that! Thank you Mark and Sam for all you do! CHEERS
Thanks Bob, maybe some year, lol, cheers and all the best.
Years ago when I first came across your channel and saw the amazing distances you were shooting at I could not take you for real. I thought you were "pulling the leg". Then over time I came to realize you are a regular working guy like most all of us, only you have an extraordinary ability in your shooting platform and a real desire to share that information with others. Yours is one of the most informative, useful and helpful channels anyone could create. Thank you!
Thank you Yote, we sure do a our best to share, and have a bit of trigger time behind our efforts, glad you like, Cheers and all our very best.
One of my Model 70's has a device called the BOSS that is meant to tame vibrations and shrink your groups by "adjusting" your barrel harmonics. As crazy as it sounds, the engineers at Winchester and Browning managed to find a way to reduce your group size. If you swap to a different weight bullet, just readjust the BOSS until you have your small group again. You described it about halfway through the video and referenced it as a barrel tuner.
Great video!
Cheers Paul, Thanks
I have a Browning with a BOSS as well. Was going to comment same.
I new about barrel harmonics but the the fact that they were faster than the projectile and so many activities in the instance the the trigger is pulled!!!!! Thank you, this gives me more to work on.
Thanks Robin
I just started to watch this channel and I am glad a true shooter has a channel. There are a lot of people who talk about it but don't who do it. Shooting is a life style to truly be good at it needing a lot of trigger time. Now it is time to watch the videos the came before I started to watch.
Thanks Wayne, glad you like, Cheers
Thank you for a clear over view. I play with loads, different powders and bullet seating depth. In shooting prone you can get a good feel to what Mark is talking about being the damper. You know you got it when you come right back on target. Cheers
Cheers Jose, Thanks
Great and easy-understanding explanation on barrel harmonics. Thank you.
Thanks Man, Cheers
Thanks Mark. Glad I finally found this video. I read something about external barrel tuners years ago, but had forgotten most of what I’d read. Been wondering recently, and you satisfied my curiosity.
Cheers
Mark, I so much appreciate how you go into the deepest depths of details in explaining the best ways of making a rifle shoot the best groups possible. What you are providing for long range shooters is a complete video library on how to accomplish amazing long range hits. I studied everything I could find during a four year period, fraught with so much anxiety and frustration trying to make a 2 mile hit with my 300RUM. From rebuilding the rifle, reloading and finding the right powder and bullet combination, barrel dampening, muzzle brake and getting an accurate range finder. The cost for all this, just to hit a 36" target at 3543 yards, I shutter to think about.
Your videos, if watched and understood by a new shooter today, will have him ringing steel at that distance in little time. You have taught me information I never thought about and I commend you for it. Keep shooting, both of you, because you're two of the greatest people shooting I have ever seen!
Thank you very much for those kind words Craig, glad you like, Cheers
Great content as always. Your work and efforts are appreciated in Kansas.
Thanks Alex, Cheers
Best explanation of the difference between a shockwave and a harmonic with the ringing bell illustration, finally making some sense for me.
Cheers
I machined a small barrel tuner for my model 1 Brno (front sight removed and re-crowned). Standard skinny barrel. It’s effect was incredible. Instead of spending a fortune on different brands of standard velocity ammo trying to find one that matches the rifles’ harmonics, I tuned the rifle to suit the ammo. The proof is that with cheapish CCI standard velocity ammo (that would normally give me 30mm groups at 50 metres) with a bit of very minor adjustment by as little as 1/4 of a turn on a very fine thread, the groups shrunk to clover leaf holes. I even eliminated the elcheapo flyers by buying a case of CCI ammo, and sorting them by weight. Big differences in weights.
Cheers
Good video , like always Mark , i think thats why we all started out with a springer airrifle , think if you can stay on target with that , you really started to learn about hormonics and recoil plus holding the rifle correctly from a young age , then already you found what worked the best , keep well , really enjoy your vids , South Africa
Thanks Man, yes good place for a kid to start, fundamentals, glad you like, Cheers
Excellent information. Thanks for sharing.
Cheers
Very interesting take on this subject Mark. Thanks for that. First time I saw anything like these barrel tuners was the browning boss. They seemed get past up on by the shooting public but recently seem to have cropped again in the tube shooting fraternity. Interesting.
Cheers
Interesting video.
I’ve always been fascinated with the science and mechanics of precision long distance shooting, not to mention the human element.
Thanks for the video, good info.
Cheers from Kentucky 🍻and “happy hunting”
Cheers Man, thanks
Really excellent explanation!
Cheers Man, Thanks
Fantastic! Great video. But the more I learn about shooting, I find out there's more to learn about shooting!
Yep, for sure, glad you liked, Cheers
Quick load and especially Gordon’s reloading tools are a great help with load development. They both have options that can calculate the OBT ( optimal barrel time) and calculate the nodes for your barrel. Also some testing has shown that muzzle brakes and cans don’t have an influence on the barrel node itself so I wonder why a tuner would make that difference. It might have to do with the type of barrels and extremer length of barrel in benchrest, where alongside the traveling vibration ( which is actually increasing and decreasing your barrel internal diameter) there is also a swinging vibration going on ( compare a guitar string) which is affected by a tuner/ damper . This is also well known with pcp air rifles
Cheers
Thank you! Excellent explanation! 🇨🇦👍
Cheers
I’d shoot competition airguns. Albeit we’re not rimfire, I’ve seen groups tighten up a small bit with barrel tuners/dampers. Good vid mate. Spot on on the description, thanks for sharing your knowledge
Cheers Van, thanks
Very well explained thanks.
Cheers
17:11
I said I never had a need for one. Didn't say I didn't know how to use it. [Paraphrase]
Great movie. Never thought that Matthew Quigley was a real person until now. ;)
Enjoy your videos. Thanks for sharing with novice shooters like myself. Cheers from Georgia, United States.
Lol, thanks Jon, Cheers
Lots of love to Sam
Cheers
Hi Mark, contact Tacom HQ for a structured barrel. They have developed rifle barrels that are harmonically dead. So they shoot basically same hole. Tiborasaurus Rex just put out video 2 days ago about their product. Really amazing stuff. Shooting 3k yards. Makes tuning a thing of the past
Well if all goes to plan, those guys are getting a barrel to us soon, should be interesting, Cheers
Great video thanks again
Cheers
Really well explained
Cheers
Great info. I just recently built a PRS rig and put an EC tuner on behind the muzzle break. Verdict is still out on how much good it'll do. Thanks for sharing!
Yep, sure can be like that, glad you like, Cheers
What's the verdict?
It definitely affects accuracy, I've since improved my 100 yard groups.
I gained a noticeable improvement in accuracy on a .22 by adding a heavy comp I had laying around. I have a drawer full of muzzle devices, adding any particular one may improve or detract from accuracy by how each different one interacts with barrel harmonics. I even made a video about it, but you do a much better job explaining it. 👍
Thanks Man, cheers
Excelent. Cheers.
Cheers
I've never heard anyone describe themselves as a "big squishy thing" before. I'll have to make a note of that. I've seen some of your ELR shooting videos and I am thoroughly impressed. I really liked a video you did a while back with the 243 Winchester which I am getting into in an AR-10 style platform. As far as accuracy goes, I'm afraid my groups are best measured in yards rather than inches. At least when I shoot my Mosin-Nagant 91/30 with old mil-sure ammo.
Glad you liked, Cheers
You will have to look hard to find ANY rifle that will shoot worse then a Mosin with mil spec ammo 😉 I had one years ago, it shot better after I cut an inch off the muzzle (probably had a bad crown from improper cleaning) but still not good. Didn't bother buying better ammo, gun was made so poorly I didn't have much hope for it...
The ability to "Tune" a barrel threw me for a loop a few years ago. Was working up a load for a new barrel on one of my rifles and found a load that had SD of 2 and an ES of 7 and that with my base seating depth (SAAMI COAL spec (2.8") / normal Mag length), shot constant 1/4" groups to my surprise. I then went back to the loading bench and loaded up a bunch more rounds with that charge and seating depth and went back out and all of a sudden, it was a touch over 1" groups.
Somewhat shocked, I double checking the dimensions of remaining rounds I had loaded with that charge weight, I put the Magnetospeed back on to double check the velocities, ES and SD and it went right back to 1/4" groups, took it back off again and went back to 1". Dumbfounded for a few minutes, then it dawned on me that the Magnetospeed was effecting the harmonics of the barrel.
The funny thing was after playing with the seating depth, I found that the SAAMI 2.8" COAL had me smack in the middle of a bad seating depth node. If seated + or - .015" (i.e., seated to either 2.815" or 2.785" COAL) from that original 2.8", the groups tightened right back up.
Moral of the story, "Tuning" and / or seating depth can have a pretty significant effect.
Yep, Cheers
That's a breath of fresh air. I've tried the rubber doinker on my CZ457 in 22lr, and use only shitty cci subsonic ammo. If it made any difference, I couldn't see it. On my Tikka t3 A1 in 6.5 creedmoor, with my best load, I can't imagine any benefit to a tuner. I suppose load dev is the most logical path with the most benefit. If after that load is found, then ya, maybe you can experiment with a tuner.
In the case of 22lr, the weighted tuners make the most sense. I've spent hours measuring rim thickness of 22lrs and testing groups of identical thicknesses. Slightly more consistent,
but it's like a box of chocolates, there's a surpise filling in some. There should be a way to measure barrel harmonics directly, as opposed to result based inference. The guy that comes up with that little gadget will sell quite a few.
Thanks Don, glad you liked, Cheers
Don Barile I wonder if the rubber doinker is just too crude to do the job. My groups with the same ammo shrunk incredibly by as little as 1/4 of a turn on the tuner that has a 40 teeth per inch thread pitch. This equates to moving the tuner weight 0.00625 of an inch to shrink the groups. That is how sensitive these adjustments are. How that can be achieved by sliding a lump of rubber up & down a barrel,,,,,, well you tell me.
Really great info delivered really well. If you have not yet, you need to check out Gordons Reloading Tool software. It is basically QuickLOAD with Chris Longs harmonics math built into it along with accounting for the initial chamber pressure and bullet release, which the QL method doesn't account for.
Thanks Stan, Cheers
I personally like to tune my Barrel in G#
All jokes aside, great video
Lol Cheers
Actually, I took my sporter Howa .30-06 and applied upward pressure on the barrel at the forend. My groups got smaller.
I figured it "fretted" the barrel and raised the frequency of the muzzle, making it deviate less in its movement. No idea what note its tuned to, probably out of key anyway. :)
Got the idea from looking at old service rifle bedding and me being a musician. Of course it's not a new idea, but my two brain cells could actually process this concept. Lol
@@jj25397 that’s amazing, didn’t even know that was a thing
@@charelpeffer52 I didn't either to be honest. I've been a guitarist for over thirty years. Looking at vibrating strings for that long and you notice things like the higher the pitch the narrower the vibration given the same amplitude of the note. I figure a rifle barrel is just like a tight string since they both are rigid and will vibrate.
Then again, I could be completely wrong too. Lol
I prefer Ab
Mark, after watching your videos about harmonics, I located some other videos produced by a maker of and users of barrel tuning devices.
My biggest takeaway is that I must have been measuring shot groups wrong all those years…what they called a .25” group looked closer to .5” to me!
Lol, yes can be the case, and well yes a bit involved, but this is my take, glad you liked, Cheers
I recently purchased a new Lithgow LA102 with a SCSA TSP X chasis in 6.5 Creedmoor. When trying out various factory, I achieved .4 inch at 100 yards with Hornady ELD-M 140 gr ammo. With Sellier & Bellot 140gr soft point ammo I got 1.16inch at 100 yards. After fitting and testing a Limbsaver Sharp Shooter X-ring Barrel de-resonator, I achieved .316 inch at 100 yards. It definitely worked for this rifle. Takes a bit of fiddling and testing with a lot of patience. American Eagle 140 gr achieved .550 inch with the de-resonator which I think is pretty good.
Sounds great, keep in mind, a best group means little, average group means everything.......Cheers
I have been playing with muzzle tuners on 22 rimfire rifles. With rimfire you can't tune the ammo to the barrel so you need to tune the barrel to the ammo. I have machined a couple different ones. They certainly work but take a lot of work to find the "sweet spots" a thousandth of an inch or two off and the group size just blows up.
Cheers glad you like, Thanks
Very good explaination. For people wanting to go further you can use Google to find and read the article of Geoffrey Kolbe's experiment "positive compensation"
Cheers
100% Mark
I don't tune, but when all the "ducks line up", I am as good a shot as anyone.
Mind you, age is catching up with me, but it's all about getting out and just doing it.
Hi Bryan, glad you liked, and yep, trigger time.......Cheers
My education is in musical wind instruments. The similarity is uncanny.
Yep, I hear you, glad you liked, Cheers
Similar relationship to stringed instruments as well.
Great video! On the topic of barrel harmonics, have you seen the structured barrel system from TacomHQ? And if you've seen it, is that something you would try? Thanks
Yes, as mentioned, and we hope to get the chance to test one soon, Cheers
Bit like pulse tuning in an exhaust system 👍👍
sort of, Cheers
12:30 at night where I'm at.
"Oh mark edits and uploads late"
*Remember you're in Australia*
Keep up the good content.
-A fan from Canada.
Edit: would you recommend a statterly ladder test, or a 5 round group test at .2-.3 grain intervals?
Thanks Man, Cheers
@@markandsamafterwork hey sorry,I edited my comment there after you responded. Would you recommend a statterly or 5 round group test to start load development?
Ah, well I don't do a lot of that stuff, but, beyond that I don't feel anything is better than another, just lots of rechecking results, or, if you get a result, do the test again and see if the result is the same before you move forward, Cheers
Fucking Brilliant, everything you just said makes sense.
Cheers Man, thanks
👍🏻👍🏻
Cheers
Great Info Mark Is a Barrel Tuner Needed On My AR-50 Heavy Barrel Or Just is it Just a Waste of $$$ I Shoot At 100-500 Yards Until I Can Find a Longer Range Too Shoot Thanks For Your Input
Thanks Chris, and well as always I do make recommendations, all the advise is in there, you have work from there, Cheers
Tune with your loads, find the nodes.
Cheers
Thank you, Thank you very much!! I have talked about barrel vibrations to some guys at the range and they just look at me like I have 3 eyes or something!! Now I have this video to show them. Thanks again! I just have 1 question.....What the hell is a doinker? LOL That is my best guess at how to spell it LOL
Thanks Man, and a doinker is a archery term for a vibration dampener, Cheers
@@markandsamafterwork Got it, Thanks And CREERS to you and Sam as well!!
👍
Cheers
TacomHQ structured barrels(?) ever give those a shot? (Bad pun sorry lol)
Never messed with one myself. But I hear good things.
Hope to see one here soon, Cheers
Did you call that a "doinker"? I love the difference in countries' languages. I believe that is a "thingamajig" here in the USA.
Good episode, have a great weekend!
Cheers Michael, FYI "Doinker" is an archery term....Cheers
@@markandsamafterwork learn something everyday!
Cheers
I live in the UK I watch your channel I have just bought a tikka t3x in 6.5 creedmoor with a 20 inch barrel could I shoot out to 1000 yes with that set up
Yes, Cheers
@@markandsamafterwork thanks for your time getting back to me
Cheers
M8 you can shoot out to 1000 yards with a .22lr the question is if you've spent the trigger time to be able to hit anything
Do you think there is a notable difference between 5R and traditional ( accuracy or consistency)
Nope
Could you tell the brand of rimfire tuner in the video. I shoot rfbr in the ARA and have not seen that particular tuner and am interested. Thanks Trent.
Huntsman Engineering
What do you think about tech con HQ barrels they claim to remove the harmonics
Haven't used one yet, Cheers
Do you mean TacomHQ?
@@randyemenhiser2573 yes
Barrel tuner do something
But
It is not a magic bullet and not a cure all
Should only be the LAST thing you do.
I’m very sure you nail it in the head.
I started using barrel tuner and my very shallow experience confirm that
Cheers
"Harmonics" is correct......Harmonic's (with the 's") is not.....no apostrophe...
The spelling police, lol, Cheers
Do you have a PayPal account for one-time contributions?
Through his store you can purchase "bits and pieces" which are essentially donations.
@@michaelreed1380 $25 Tee shirt = $5 for Mark. $25 PayPal = $25 for Mark. I have plenty of Tee shirts already.
Thanks Guys, yes we have a few options, channel page and web store, Cheers and all the best.
@@markandsamafterwork I bought a bit. You should put a quicklink to PayPal in each video.
Awesome, Thanks Man, Cheers
So what you're saying is: barrel tuners can serve a purpose for "fine tuning", but they aren't going to perform miracles.
Cheers
exactly. you need a super stiff barrel to begin with. loads tuned for that barrel, and only then would it make any sense to even attempt a barrel tuner. if you dont have the first 2 its a total waste of time. look at Eric Cortina's vid on the subject
I think these tuners are crutches IMO, tune your ammo to rifle period!!
Cheers
All of the gadgets sound like a band aide and not a solution. our technology hasn't developed to that level.....YET. now lets talk and think differently. anything better will start with our military and trickle down from there so until then..... well, we'll just have to make due. cheers
Ah, no, but really depends where you are coming from, horses for courses, lol, cheers
I'm not sure, the military thinks, close enough is good enough, (check out the specs' for sniper rifles WW2,)
This comment was made by a non shooter hahahaha
Randall Booker
This is for a rifle AND SHOOTER
That already shoots well and is looking to shave that extra bit off the group...... or going from 2nd to first place
To say these are "bandaids" 🤭🤭
Comparing offhand shooting with prone position or benchrest shooting shows he's not understanding what kind of "accuracy" we're talking about. For sure unless you're an olympic champion with a stiff shooting suit, it's useless to tune barrel harmonics when shooting offhand LOL