The Presbyterian church I grew up in had a large chest organ-sized tracker console built into and under the chancel, altar and choir pews at the front of the church. The organist could see and be seen by the choir over the console. Musical performance was important in the service and the life of the congregation. The pipe organ was built below, behind and above the altarpiece. The Kirk was designed as a concert space as much as for worship.
Chest organs were designed originally for procession back in the 16 to 18th century in a few central and eastern Catholic European countries. They were frequently placed on ox drawn carts while being played, or being carried on a litter.
I had no idea. Indeed I had the impression (whence it came??, come to think of it) that portable, wood-piped organs were consistent with period performance practices. And yet I have no doubt that you are entirely correct. Cheers. I really enjoy the channel.
Here in Europe, even a small city typically has half a dozen churches, all with historical-ish or modern-ish big organs. Nobody uses chest organs here, or even electric organs (with recorded sound). Accompaniment is typically piano or organ or cembalo, and some small ensembles use an electric keyboard instead.
Speaking of recordings using historical church organs, I love your Carlo G. recording featuring the Antegnati organ. That organ is perfect for accompanying the voices and violin.
Thank you for producing a video on this; I too lament the lack of use of big organs in our modern performances of Baroque music. In fact, one of my "Pipedreams" is to have Bach's complete Cantatas recorded with large historical organs across Europe. But to be the devil's advocate: there are quite a few historical instruments that resemble our modern chestorgan more than the examples you cited - for instance, the widely copied Näser positiv in Germanisches Nationalmuseum, or the "Secretarie-orgel" that used to be in the Hogwood collection. But these were indeed probably made for domestic musicmaking than church music.
I think they are called Bureau Organs in English (even though that's a french word obviously!). There's one by Snetzler in the Handel House museum in London.
And add to the growing list of chest organs here the 1606 instrument at Knole House, Kent, UK. It is in playing order and has been copied by Martin Renshaw.
There is an instrument maker in Northeastern USA who makes an interesting alternative to the chest organ: an Italian-style Principale di legno 8' - with the lower octave and 1/2 of stopped pipes, the rest open - placed horizontally so that the instrument is flat like a harpsichord. Obviously, having only one stop the organ is limited. But it coukd still serve well for much chamber music.
We need more information. NOT about the stops (registers, mutations, jeux) but about the diapason (base scale of the notes -hexacordum grave. naturale, acuta-) and the tuning -related with the other musicians and related to the NOT tempered instruments. And the 8' Fuß/ Feet / Pied pipe sounds F. And it should heve more interest to see an operating chest-organ with half empty to see the tractura /velatura, AND some of thin lkinde of stops (mutatuins). And something else, the sort octav and break octav problem (in the bass part of manual/ claviatura) might is interesting for others too.
You mention the bass being weak, yet having a "boomy" sound. I wonder if the latter can be used systematically to counter the former?
5 лет назад+6
Oh, and what about the chest organ part of the Theewes Claviorgano from 1579, the Pock Claviorgano from 1591 and the Claviorgano now in Hamburg which is an addition to the 1630 double manual anon. French harpsichord? If you take into account that the bellow was also placed in the chest organ's case, the amount of space available to the pipes is really not much. In the Hamburg instrument, where the case of the organ exactly follows the shape of the harpsichord above, the Gedackt 8 is placed horizontally, 4 and 2 are vertical and only the 2 is made of metal. ... hm... (the cases of the two other chest organs are slightly bigger than the harpsichords above them. Still not much space though...). There are about some 30+ Claviorganos that still survive and the Hamburg one even plays. In the inventory of Henry VIII there are 5 claviorganos mentioned, the first mention of a claviorgano in Dresden is 1593, Philip II of Spain also had 3 such instruments according to the inventory. In the Koháry Castle there is a 17th century chest organ with flöt maior 8, flöt minor 4 both wooden, superoctav 2, sedecima, bellows are operated by hands, all the pipes are below the level of the keyboard, there is no prospect at all. Dom Bedos also depicts some with stopped wooden pipes and also exactly the construction more less of today with a horizontally placed stopped wooden 8 foot. And then there is another chapter for the small or house organs (or mechanical organs for that matter) which there are many of still surviving and playing. The one in Eisenach, the beautiful late renaissance Kunze-Organ in Leipzig, or the one built already later in the 17th century, the Manderscheidts and so on just to name a few... The arrangement of the pipes is also very often chromatic rather than symmetrical, and one finds the pipes both above or below the level of the keyboard. But I am not arguing with the fact that we ignore the use of large organs in our early music performance practice and that the construction will influence the voicing. Although we also shouldn't forget that even in large organs in the German speaking wolrd there were only a few stops, the so called musizier-stops that were intended to be used with other musicians. (Different pitch, different temperament, perhaps equal.) So despite the big organ you only get to use one or two stops of it. The musizier stops got a new definition in the romantic era that had nothing to do with the initial idea. So perhaps the picture is not as simple as suggested in the video which is otherwise great. Greetings :-)
Strange to compare a church organ with a chest organ like this and award 'an Ikea prize for practicality'. They are sort of incomparable. A chest organ has a very limited function, while even old church organs are independent instruments. The practice to use modern chest organs for recordings is an example of laziness and lack of respect for the queen of all instruments: the organ.
Medieval (organettos, portatives) organs are the proof evidences: pipe are NOT about different sound (sonoritá) but the pipes had have the notes about old fashiones MODs. Like frygian, lydian and they hypo-variations also. EARLY music SOURCE is a brave serial, I definitely adore it, but old instruments are speaking about what sung cannot.
How were English chest organs made? Wooden stopped pipes too? I’ve only seen a historical diagram with one about the size of a large rectangular dinner table equipped with music stands for the consort. However I couldn’t remember what was said about the pipes
Pitch is determined by the length of the air column, not the amount of air. Making the pipe narrower only makes the tone weaker but does not (apart from possible second order effects) alter the pitch.
Yes, narrower pipes have to be longer. Wider pipes have more "end effect" that makes them sound at lower pitch than their physical length. But this is a fairly small effect, so the narrow pipes still take up less space in total.
Why not play the organ parts on a PC running Hauptwerk with organ-simulating MIDI keyboard and pedalboard controllers like the ones from Fatar or MIDIWorks? It would provide all the convenience, flexibility and consistency of a chest organ, and then some; and if the chest organ is such a poor approximation to a full church organ then Hauptwerk's simulation is hardly going to be any worse. Of course the classical-music world is still firmly attached to acoustic instruments; but that devotion seems to make no sense in this case, at least if the result is performances on (apparently) completely inauthentic-sounding chest organs.
One organist had this exact idea, and built a digital chest organ with the computer and speakers placed where the pipes would usually go: ruclips.net/video/puChILBjH-k/видео.html
True, though the Positiv is more practical: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_organ And from that page I found the “doe orgel” from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orgelkids which is just a really GREAT idea, especially considering “All the materials used are identical to those used in a large pipe organ (such as oak wood and sheep leather). Children experience the value and quality of craftsman-made instruments.”
A very interesting and useful video - thanks! However, I do not agree with the following: Chest organs are cheap - No, they are not! The organist can tune the chest organ himself. - I don't think so! Also, the fact that such tiny organs were not used in the past has more to do with the lack of an electric blower than anything else. A chest-organ with hand-blowing gear would be at least twice the size of the modern instrument, and the spectacle of someone blowing it would be ludicrous.
I have tuned many chest organs over the course of my career. I have even known non-organists to have tuned them successfully! I have also known chest organs that were effectively foot-pumped by the player -- not at all cumbersome.
@@timothytikker1147 well, harmoniums (or pump organs) are feet pumped... Yes, they are reed organs instead of wooden pipes organs, but the principle is similar: a big main chest and two smaller pumping chests. In bigger (than reed organs, which can be quite compact) organs, the pumps can be properly hidden and the wind pipes concealed or not very obvious. I am sure there were many more chest organs than thought, but being more familiar, they were used, like polyphonic harpsicords and clavichords, for practice at home. Also, it's hard for a big, church pipe organ to survive 400 years, so the almost all wood smaller ones mainly sitting in houses and palaces would most perish to fires in the many wars and hazards, or to bugs and mold as pianos took over the smoking rooms and conservatories...
David S. de Lis I'm sorry, but I don't believe that you understand what I am describing. Also, harmoniums are 19th and early 20th century music, not earlier music.
@@timothytikker1147 Please show me a link to a photo of the 'non-cumbersome' chest organ. Also, I would like to know how you (and others) managed to tune the many chest-organs. Did you use a 'tuning app' or similar? If not, how did you acquire the necessary skill to tune?
most organs are placed at the back, with no place for the orchestra. how could they synchronize with the orchestra? where were the other players and singers placed?
+Gila Brill In Lutheran churches the organ loft typically offered enough space for soloists and instruments. Also in big Catholic churches the musicians were situated on the organ lofts. In poly-choral performances the musicians were on the different organ balconies and there was a person beating the tactus with his hand, syncing all the choirs together (“early conductor” if you wish). However there are other cases such as reformed churches in the Netherlands, where indeed there was no available space for further musicians. In those cases the performance of vocal music would take place on the floor of the church, using a smaller organ (smaller than a big organ, but much bigger than a modern chest organ).
For me, McCreesh's recording of the Matthäuspassion (cf. ruclips.net/video/NItcgV8hiC4/видео.html&ab_channel=GabrieliPlayers-TopicGabrieliPlayers-Topic) was quite an ear opener concerning the use of a large organ. Just listen e.g. to the earthquake after the death of Christ that the magnificent organ manages to produce. It is really a pity that despite the availability of many fantastic instruments (at least in Europe) these are so rarely used except in liturgical context. In my experience, the success of chest organs is mostly connected to the large distance between organ and "stage" in many churches (and the expectation that performers be visible by the audience, which nowadays seems to be very strong, contrary to performance tradition). There might be a technological solution to this issue though: More and more organs have a second mobile electronic Spieltisch which allows the organist to play his instrument from any place within the church. Of course this does not resolve issues such as sound delay, but at least it allows the organist to be in closer contact which his or her fellow performers. It would be ironic, but very much appreciated, if advances in technology would allow us to listen to more historically authentic performances.
At least someone killing the chest organ, as I do. I am not alone anymore, haha. Chest organs were extreemly seldom indeed and rather used in intimate music in monks libraries. Now lets face the fact: if we want to hear historically informed interpretations, we have to go hear it in the worship they were intended for, with the inner preparation the hearers had (following the liturgical text as expression of faith). The church was the place for church music, the worship was the context, in the case of the catholic church, the will to subdue hearers was the intended act. Since I dont want to hear from this most perverse religion that is catholicism, I'll never feel what a hearer felt at this time.
The Presbyterian church I grew up in had a large chest organ-sized tracker console built into and under the chancel, altar and choir pews at the front of the church. The organist could see and be seen by the choir over the console. Musical performance was important in the service and the life of the congregation. The pipe organ was built below, behind and above the altarpiece. The Kirk was designed as a concert space as much as for worship.
Chest organs were designed originally for procession back in the 16 to 18th century in a few central and eastern Catholic European countries. They were frequently placed on ox drawn carts while being played, or being carried on a litter.
I had no idea. Indeed I had the impression (whence it came??, come to think of it) that portable, wood-piped organs were consistent with period performance practices. And yet I have no doubt that you are entirely correct. Cheers. I really enjoy the channel.
Cembalo? were used in Ensemble playing.
I didn't know the situation was so bad. Here in Poland you can easily come across a concert of pre-classical music accompanied by a church organ.
Same in Germany
I love this channel so so so much!
super like!!! thank you Elam Rotem and friends! Really helpful and inspiring!
Here in Europe, even a small city typically has half a dozen churches, all with historical-ish or modern-ish big organs. Nobody uses chest organs here, or even electric organs (with recorded sound). Accompaniment is typically piano or organ or cembalo, and some small ensembles use an electric keyboard instead.
Speaking of recordings using historical church organs, I love your Carlo G. recording featuring the Antegnati organ. That organ is perfect for accompanying the voices and violin.
Thank you for uploading these great videos!!!
Thank you for producing a video on this; I too lament the lack of use of big organs in our modern performances of Baroque music. In fact, one of my "Pipedreams" is to have Bach's complete Cantatas recorded with large historical organs across Europe.
But to be the devil's advocate: there are quite a few historical instruments that resemble our modern chestorgan more than the examples you cited - for instance, the widely copied Näser positiv in Germanisches Nationalmuseum, or the "Secretarie-orgel" that used to be in the Hogwood collection. But these were indeed probably made for domestic musicmaking than church music.
Thanks! Can you send some more info / links about these organs?
I think they are called Bureau Organs in English (even though that's a french word obviously!). There's one by Snetzler in the Handel House museum in London.
Found a link: www.goetzegwynn.co.uk/organ/handel-house-museum-restoration-snetzler-bureau-organ/
And add to the growing list of chest organs here the 1606 instrument at Knole House, Kent, UK. It is in playing order and has been copied by Martin Renshaw.
Great video I love your channel! Funfact: When you talk about the C and it's length of 8 feet, the organ is Playing an F
There is an instrument maker in Northeastern USA who makes an interesting alternative to the chest organ: an Italian-style Principale di legno 8' - with the lower octave and 1/2 of stopped pipes, the rest open - placed horizontally so that the instrument is flat like a harpsichord. Obviously, having only one stop the organ is limited. But it coukd still serve well for much chamber music.
Great videos! Very informative and well produced.
Thank you
Very useful. Thank you!
Hahaha 2:33 etc. !! so much fun - those noises !!! Very cool video - thank you ! :D
We need more information. NOT about the stops (registers, mutations, jeux) but about the diapason (base scale of the notes -hexacordum grave. naturale, acuta-) and the tuning -related with the other musicians and related to the NOT tempered instruments. And the 8' Fuß/ Feet / Pied pipe sounds F. And it should heve more interest to see an operating chest-organ with half empty to see the tractura /velatura, AND some of thin lkinde of stops (mutatuins). And something else, the sort octav and break octav problem (in the bass part of manual/ claviatura) might is interesting for others too.
Very interesting. Thanks.
You mention the bass being weak, yet having a "boomy" sound. I wonder if the latter can be used systematically to counter the former?
Oh, and what about the chest organ part of the Theewes Claviorgano from 1579, the Pock Claviorgano from 1591 and the Claviorgano now in Hamburg which is an addition to the 1630 double manual anon. French harpsichord? If you take into account that the bellow was also placed in the chest organ's case, the amount of space available to the pipes is really not much. In the Hamburg instrument, where the case of the organ exactly follows the shape of the harpsichord above, the Gedackt 8 is placed horizontally, 4 and 2 are vertical and only the 2 is made of metal. ... hm... (the cases of the two other chest organs are slightly bigger than the harpsichords above them. Still not much space though...). There are about some 30+ Claviorganos that still survive and the Hamburg one even plays. In the inventory of Henry VIII there are 5 claviorganos mentioned, the first mention of a claviorgano in Dresden is 1593, Philip II of Spain also had 3 such instruments according to the inventory.
In the Koháry Castle there is a 17th century chest organ with flöt maior 8, flöt minor 4 both wooden, superoctav 2, sedecima, bellows are operated by hands, all the pipes are below the level of the keyboard, there is no prospect at all.
Dom Bedos also depicts some with stopped wooden pipes and also exactly the construction more less of today with a horizontally placed stopped wooden 8 foot.
And then there is another chapter for the small or house organs (or mechanical organs for that matter) which there are many of still surviving and playing. The one in Eisenach, the beautiful late renaissance Kunze-Organ in Leipzig, or the one built already later in the 17th century, the Manderscheidts and so on just to name a few... The arrangement of the pipes is also very often chromatic rather than symmetrical, and one finds the pipes both above or below the level of the keyboard.
But I am not arguing with the fact that we ignore the use of large organs in our early music performance practice and that the construction will influence the voicing. Although we also shouldn't forget that even in large organs in the German speaking wolrd there were only a few stops, the so called musizier-stops that were intended to be used with other musicians. (Different pitch, different temperament, perhaps equal.) So despite the big organ you only get to use one or two stops of it. The musizier stops got a new definition in the romantic era that had nothing to do with the initial idea.
So perhaps the picture is not as simple as suggested in the video which is otherwise great.
Greetings :-)
If I could like this video more than once I would.
Strange to compare a church organ with a chest organ like this and award 'an Ikea prize for practicality'. They are sort of incomparable. A chest organ has a very limited function, while even old church organs are independent instruments. The practice to use modern chest organs for recordings is an example of laziness and lack of respect for the queen of all instruments: the organ.
what is an average weight for a Chest organ?
Medieval (organettos, portatives) organs are the proof evidences: pipe are NOT about different sound (sonoritá) but the pipes had have the notes about old fashiones MODs. Like frygian, lydian and they hypo-variations also. EARLY music SOURCE is a brave serial, I definitely adore it, but old instruments are speaking about what sung cannot.
👍👌
How were English chest organs made? Wooden stopped pipes too? I’ve only seen a historical diagram with one about the size of a large rectangular dinner table equipped with music stands for the consort. However I couldn’t remember what was said about the pipes
The early seventeenth-century chest organ made for and still at Knole House, Kent, UK, has 4 ranks of wooden pipes:
8' stopped
4' open
12th
2'
If the pipes in a chest organ are narrower, wouldn't they necessarily have to be longer?
Nope.
Pitch is determined by the length of the air column, not the amount of air. Making the pipe narrower only makes the tone weaker but does not (apart from possible second order effects) alter the pitch.
Yes, narrower pipes have to be longer. Wider pipes have more "end effect" that makes them sound at lower pitch than their physical length. But this is a fairly small effect, so the narrow pipes still take up less space in total.
@@4hodmt well said, this is also called "end correction". You are right.
Why not play the organ parts on a PC running Hauptwerk with organ-simulating MIDI keyboard and pedalboard controllers like the ones from Fatar or MIDIWorks? It would provide all the convenience, flexibility and consistency of a chest organ, and then some; and if the chest organ is such a poor approximation to a full church organ then Hauptwerk's simulation is hardly going to be any worse. Of course the classical-music world is still firmly attached to acoustic instruments; but that devotion seems to make no sense in this case, at least if the result is performances on (apparently) completely inauthentic-sounding chest organs.
That's why I'll have a massive Hauptwerk with 5 keyboards and its own stops, along with the system talked about in this comment by @leocomerford!
One organist had this exact idea, and built a digital chest organ with the computer and speakers placed where the pipes would usually go: ruclips.net/video/puChILBjH-k/видео.html
I think you forgot the portativo organ as the smallest one...
True, though the Positiv is more practical: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_organ
And from that page I found the “doe orgel” from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orgelkids which is just a really GREAT idea, especially considering “All the materials used are identical to those used in a large pipe organ (such as oak wood and sheep leather). Children experience the value and quality of craftsman-made instruments.”
“Principal”-ly different!
A very interesting and useful video - thanks!
However, I do not agree with the following:
Chest organs are cheap - No, they are not!
The organist can tune the chest organ himself. - I don't think so!
Also, the fact that such tiny organs were not used in the past has more to do with the lack of an electric blower than anything else. A chest-organ with hand-blowing gear would be at least twice the size of the modern instrument, and the spectacle of someone blowing it would be ludicrous.
I have tuned many chest organs over the course of my career. I have even known non-organists to have tuned them successfully! I have also known chest organs that were effectively foot-pumped by the player -- not at all cumbersome.
@@timothytikker1147 well, harmoniums (or pump organs) are feet pumped... Yes, they are reed organs instead of wooden pipes organs, but the principle is similar: a big main chest and two smaller pumping chests. In bigger (than reed organs, which can be quite compact) organs, the pumps can be properly hidden and the wind pipes concealed or not very obvious. I am sure there were many more chest organs than thought, but being more familiar, they were used, like polyphonic harpsicords and clavichords, for practice at home. Also, it's hard for a big, church pipe organ to survive 400 years, so the almost all wood smaller ones mainly sitting in houses and palaces would most perish to fires in the many wars and hazards, or to bugs and mold as pianos took over the smoking rooms and conservatories...
David S. de Lis I'm sorry, but I don't believe that you understand what I am describing. Also, harmoniums are 19th and early 20th century music, not earlier music.
@@timothytikker1147 Please show me a link to a photo of the 'non-cumbersome' chest organ.
Also, I would like to know how you (and others) managed to tune the many chest-organs. Did you use a 'tuning app' or similar? If not, how did you acquire the necessary skill to tune?
Offshoreorganbuilder some continuo positives are shown here: www.harpsichord.com/Organs/organ_frmset.html
most organs are placed at the back, with no place for the orchestra. how could they synchronize with the orchestra? where were the other players and singers placed?
+Gila Brill In Lutheran churches the organ loft typically offered enough space for soloists and instruments. Also in big Catholic churches the musicians were situated on the organ lofts. In poly-choral performances the musicians were on the different organ balconies and there was a person beating the tactus with his hand, syncing all the choirs together (“early conductor” if you wish). However there are other cases such as reformed churches in the Netherlands, where indeed there was no available space for further musicians. In those cases the performance of vocal music would take place on the floor of the church, using a smaller organ (smaller than a big organ, but much bigger than a modern chest organ).
+Early Music Sources we need such a place here... I did twice concerts from the balcony, not easy...
Mirror?
@@lucambridgman7978 Indeed, I have seen mirrors in such cases
The 8 dislikes were from small organ makers.
"size does matter"
For me, McCreesh's recording of the Matthäuspassion (cf. ruclips.net/video/NItcgV8hiC4/видео.html&ab_channel=GabrieliPlayers-TopicGabrieliPlayers-Topic) was quite an ear opener concerning the use of a large organ. Just listen e.g. to the earthquake after the death of Christ that the magnificent organ manages to produce. It is really a pity that despite the availability of many fantastic instruments (at least in Europe) these are so rarely used except in liturgical context. In my experience, the success of chest organs is mostly connected to the large distance between organ and "stage" in many churches (and the expectation that performers be visible by the audience, which nowadays seems to be very strong, contrary to performance tradition). There might be a technological solution to this issue though: More and more organs have a second mobile electronic Spieltisch which allows the organist to play his instrument from any place within the church. Of course this does not resolve issues such as sound delay, but at least it allows the organist to be in closer contact which his or her fellow performers. It would be ironic, but very much appreciated, if advances in technology would allow us to listen to more historically authentic performances.
At least someone killing the chest organ, as I do. I am not alone anymore, haha. Chest organs were extreemly seldom indeed and rather used in intimate music in monks libraries. Now lets face the fact: if we want to hear historically informed interpretations, we have to go hear it in the worship they were intended for, with the inner preparation the hearers had (following the liturgical text as expression of faith). The church was the place for church music, the worship was the context, in the case of the catholic church, the will to subdue hearers was the intended act. Since I dont want to hear from this most perverse religion that is catholicism, I'll never feel what a hearer felt at this time.
That thing is piss poor. Boring.