One of my buddies told me about this video. I find it fascinating that the gentleman who is explaining the form, has gleaned so much from it. I appreciate the fact he says he is just a guy who is trying to figure out how to make himself better. I had a lot of games of practice with that form, and as the years went by, it got much better as I learned how to use my legs more and more. It loosened up my arm and feel big time. I’m 61 now, knees are done, but damn if this didn’t make me smile. Thank You. Mike Miller
Just started bowling like this a few days ago for no particular reason, I just wanted to have that cool spin and the only way it felt natural for me to grab the ball was without the thumb. I thought it looked odd but whatever, it worked. The very first day I went from 120-130 avg to 150-160 and I have maintained it. The improvement is just so evident, and I'm still adjusting the technique and feeling more confident about it. I'm positive with more practice and perhaps a slightly lighter ball I could be in the 170-180s soon and finally become a bit competitive in my league. Good to know I'm not the only thumbless weirdo 😅
I’ve been bowling not thumb one hand for about 15 years now. 198 average and I’m just stumbling across these great informative videos. I’ve seen a raise in consistency in my game. New season starts next month I’ll update you on my new average. Appreciate the great info!
I went looking for a style similar to mine, I found Tom. Thanks for introducing me to Mike Miller. No thumb is the way I feel best bowling. Thanks for breaking down the swing. My hands are pretty messed up from turning wrenches for years. Keep up the good work!
Miller has such balance and Grace! I just started bowling like this and I am learning more and more. Shoulder was KILLING me because I was trying to overpower the ball with hook and hold the ball in my hand and I slowed it way down and tried to bowl straighter which still hooks more than enough but not off the lane. Thanks for posting this video and thanks to Mike for pioneering the way
I switched to NT1H back when I averaged in the 170s (1989). 2 years later and a bowling camp, I had jumped to 220 and shot 9 300's in one year. Everything was going my way and I even joined PBA. I did that before I heard of Mike Miller and there was a local guy who had insane talent as a 2 hander. Life happens and I pretty much suck now and kind of stopped bowling.
I've been bowling this way since 1986 but I barely put my fingertips inside the holes and I never watched anyone do it but I'm glad you found a way to make the transition. These days I get massive left leg and knee pain if I bowl too much... I'm almost 50 and out of shape so you know.
@@xjcrossx thats always the funny thing. happened at a tournament just yesterday, dude I was facing saw my first throw and laughed, “that’s seriously how you throw?” yeah… beat him by 67 pins, funny how that works
I've been bowling like this since my early 20's not very regularly but i digress, i find that watching belmo's approach helped me alot, the little hop step in it helps bunches, or atleast did for me give it a check you might like it
Been bowling 1 Hand no thumb for the last 17 years. Average 210. Couple 300s. Don't know how I started bowling that way but it's worked for me quite well.
I just started today cause my thumbs been getting tore up from the thumb hole. The idiot at the shop didn’t put my pitch right. But it feels crazy to bowl with two fingers. I was throwing huge hooks
Depends how comfortable things are for people. I was a no thumber for years but had used balls, all of which sported thumb holes. Was warned of the upcoming rule change back in Sept. 2018 and I went the Smallwood way (thumb into 1st joint) instead of plugging a bunch of holes. It's kind of interchangeable, I could still toss an orb with no thumb hole with the same style.
I guess if you are able to hold the ball that way. Smallwood's thumb is not in typical place. He basically palms it and his thumb is pointed forward, not back. So his thumb is in pretty much the same place as most 1 hand, no hand bowlers.
@@nothumbbowler1802 I've tried inserting my thumb the whole way and it was a mess. Apparently Wesley Low gets away with that. Have you tried thumb into first joint yet if you wanted to test a ball that had a thumb hole? You're right about the placement, balls with long spans can give me trouble unless I switch to ring and pinky because the middle finger is nearer to the thumb than those other two digits.
@@coopergates9680 I'm not sure how you hold the ball, but you give the impression that you have a large hand or long fingers and ability to hold ball in different ways. I have no such ability to throw differently drilled balls at all. Everything has to be perfect. As seen clearly in linked video below, Smallwood's thumb it not pointed backwards like just about everyone else who puts their thumb in the ball. It is pointed forward. So, Smallwood's grip is much closer to say Tom Daugherty, than someone's whose thumb points backwards. Thumb pointed forwards or back is really more important than if it is in a hole or not. ruclips.net/video/q7GnNvEEwY8/видео.html
I just got my first ball a few months ago. I wanted to hook it so bad I tried everything and nothing worked. Two finger no thumb was a disaster as I kept coming over the top of the ball. I settled on bowling straight with traditional grip and focusing on fundamentals like footwork and keeping my hand low and inside the ball. Got pretty good bowling straight, but that gets boring so I tried two finger no thumb again and threw the most beautiful hook across the lane and into the pocket! Now I'm bowling close to 200 with only a couple months practice. I think the key is to try to not over hook the ball. With good fundamentals, the two finger no thumb grip will do all the work for you. I still revert to traditional grip for spares. Not ideal, but that's the only way I've found a little success in this very difficult game.
Mike Miller and Tom Daugherty both shoot spares straight with thumb. For house shot and league, it doesn't matter. But it someone every wants to move up to more competitive bowling, then it will.
Can you break down Tom D? Your comment at the beginning rings loud…we are very limited in terms of people we can study. Seeing part of the shots from behind are very helpful. Keep presching
I’ve been bowling two fingers for years but my wrist would be super sore the next day. I recently started not putting my fingers in all the way and that has helped with the soreness and my ball speed is up.
Putting the fingers in more can cause the need for more flexion in the wrist. This can mean more control. But it can take some time for the hand to adapt to this. It's not something which can be learned quickly. The body has to adapt - muscles and attachments need to gain strength and flexibility. Using a lighter weight ball may be the best option for getting used to this. Putting fingers in less is easier on the hand and wrist. But it may also be harder to hold the ball.
Great explanation of the the way we bowl... let me know if you if you have any questions on grips or pitches I've try alot of different ones over the years 😆 👍👍
Thanks. I'm glad the video makes sense to other people. I've played around a lot w/ grips and pitches. Eventually I found that by pitching the fingers pointed more towards the thumb, it allows me to better grab onto the ball. So I have a lot of left pitch. Oval grips and now gluing them down deep into the holes. Reverse pitch was a total disaster. So at 1/8 forward. Sure, would love to hear other things people have learned. I think it someone has larger hands, grip would probably be easier to find something that works.
What made you decide to bowl no thumb? I'm 49 now. I haven't bold since I was 10. Right handed with my thumb strong hook. No, I have thumb problems and I've been bowling for a month and a half. I've been thinking about it and decided today that I'm switching to no thumb. I've got no clue what I'm doing. I'll get two strikes in a row and then three or four cutter balls in a row. Not to mention my wrist hurts or more specifically the forearm close to the wrist on the bottom hurts. But I have way more hook potential until my wrist acts up than I did with my thumb in. Some people are telling me now I have to plug my thumb holes so I don't get in trouble during league. Hopefully I can learn to bowl when handed no thumb. These videos are helpful to me
I always had a lot of trouble with my grip, would spend a few games trying to get tape right, usually it would never happen, tried over 100 different drillings, nothing was good and it was clear that I would never be good enough to compete in sport shot tournaments with my thumb. 1 hand with thumb seemed to be an easier switch than going 2 handed. Yes, you would have to have thumb plugged. I don't know what you are doing, obviously haven't seen you bowl, but for me it took time to develop wrist and bicep strength. A heavy ball is not needed. In fact, it is a major misconception. Anyway, if someone is learning how to bowling without their thumb and runs into problems because their wrist is acting up from the weight, I would suggest they think about getting a 12-14 lb ball. Also, you don't want to injury yourself by using a too heavy ball. I did that early on. Eventually I got to a point where I could no thumb a 16 lb ball (not what I typically use) but if I could do it all over again, would have just used 12 or 13lbs the first year at least. Because then it got to point where I hurt myself - plus a biceps injury and I was forced to use 12 lbs for some time. Still have cashed in multiple sport shot tournaments with 12 lbs. No one has any idea. Weight is the single most overrated, misunderstood part of bowling. Art Of Bowling has a good video about it.
@@nothumbbowler1802 unfortunately i already bought (13) 15lbers so I'm kinda stuck with it. I've only drilled 5 of them so far tho. The problem I have with 12 to 14 lb balls is they seem to always have a much higher RG and often a lower differential. Yeah the underside of my wrist like the forearm where the veins are is really sore after my first time trying only fingers and I'm not sure if it's my bicep, but between my bicep and forearm on the inside of the elbow that's pretty messed up right now. Maybe I'll grab a used 12lb ball till i get used to the new form.
I think I need to get new tips. RightNow mine go to the first joint, and I have a buddy that can put his fingers into the second joint. It does feel like you can control the ball a lot more walking up and it's not as wobbly when you're bringing it back.
I think a lot depends on size of hands, and how you hold the ball. From watching enough video, I think Tom Daugherty is just regular finger tip. I've thrown enough shots with poor control of ball to know, the ball can't feel wobbly. Other than how it's held with fingers, getting the ball under the shoulder and cradling it is so important as well.
@@nothumbbowler1802 i have pretty big hands, wingspan anyway, and I use 2 fingers. But there are a lot of times as I walk up I feel it moving back and forth. 1 out of 20 times i'll stop and adjust, but damn does it cost me. I thought about wearing a glove for grip, but that didn't feel right either. I really liked seeing a bro bowler using 2 fingers
It would be interesting. Personally, I have tried dozens of different finger pitches, and could not bowl nearly as well as I do, if I didn't have it as absolutely perfect as I can make it. Everyone has different hands, so I don't think there is one way that can work for everyone. But I hate to see someone being limited because their ball is not drilled for their game, and the only thing their pro-shop guy knows how to do is drill two holes with 3/8 lateral pitch away from each other.
@@nothumbbowler1802 I'm at a 1/2 MF, 1/4 RF.... in process of trying new forward pitches... Just had an old ball drilled 0,0 as benchmark from old balls and will start looking to move the forward pitch in fingers if needed... so I will see how that goes...
depends on preference and ability i believe...i bowled with just my finger tips in the ball for years and trying it at the second joint wasnt horrible...i just prefer finger tip much more than anything else
I don't think one is better than the other. If your hand is large enough, I guess finger-tip. I may make a video on some drilling experiments I've done. Second joint may require more trial and error to get everything right. Finger pitches, grip size, how to hold it.
So when I started bowling I just pulled regular until one day I started doing no thumb and I swear my my game went through the roof up when I quit bowling my average was 244
I bowl no thumb but after 2 games my left hip hurts so bad. I'm 37 so understandable but it hurts so bad I have to stop and it's hard to get better when I cant do more than 2 games every few days.
Leg soreness is common at first. It should get better the more often you practice. Otherwise, the most underappreciated part of bowling is physical fitness. Working more on exercise and flexibility off the lanes has helped me out.
That's probably the best way for most people. the wrist/hand will have a much harder time supporting the weight and can cause injury. Staying under the ball with forearm also creates stability. That being said, I support ball on wrist/hand.
Mike Miller was in great physical shape to throw it like that though, not like the ordinary Joe Slob at league in smalltown somewhere. Lifted weights, ran etc.
@@nothumbbowler1802 you're 100% right. I know in my many years of bowling my best ones were when I was in good physical shape. Helped me immensely. Also gave me confidence latter on in tournaments that I could keep going when a lot would tire out.
One of my buddies told me about this video. I find it fascinating that the gentleman who is explaining the form, has gleaned so much from it. I appreciate the fact he says he is just a guy who is trying to figure out how to make himself better. I had a lot of games of practice with that form, and as the years went by, it got much better as I learned how to use my legs more and more. It loosened up my arm and feel big time. I’m 61 now, knees are done, but damn if this didn’t make me smile. Thank You. Mike Miller
Just started bowling like this a few days ago for no particular reason, I just wanted to have that cool spin and the only way it felt natural for me to grab the ball was without the thumb. I thought it looked odd but whatever, it worked. The very first day I went from 120-130 avg to 150-160 and I have maintained it. The improvement is just so evident, and I'm still adjusting the technique and feeling more confident about it. I'm positive with more practice and perhaps a slightly lighter ball I could be in the 170-180s soon and finally become a bit competitive in my league. Good to know I'm not the only thumbless weirdo 😅
I don't bowl with a thumb
Great informative analysis. Better than most of the instructional videos on RUclips.
I’ve been bowling not thumb one hand for about 15 years now. 198 average and I’m just stumbling across these great informative videos. I’ve seen a raise in consistency in my game. New season starts next month I’ll update you on my new average. Appreciate the great info!
As someone who is also a no thumb bowler, thanks for the vid. Very good reference material for figuring out my own improvements
I feel the exact same way
I went looking for a style similar to mine, I found Tom. Thanks for introducing me to Mike Miller. No thumb is the way I feel best bowling. Thanks for breaking down the swing. My hands are pretty messed up from turning wrenches for years. Keep up the good work!
Miller has such balance and Grace! I just started bowling like this and I am learning more and more. Shoulder was KILLING me because I was trying to overpower the ball with hook and hold the ball in my hand and I slowed it way down and tried to bowl straighter which still hooks more than enough but not off the lane. Thanks for posting this video and thanks to Mike for pioneering the way
I switched to NT1H back when I averaged in the 170s (1989). 2 years later and a bowling camp, I had jumped to 220 and shot 9 300's in one year. Everything was going my way and I even joined PBA. I did that before I heard of Mike Miller and there was a local guy who had insane talent as a 2 hander. Life happens and I pretty much suck now and kind of stopped bowling.
I've been bowling this way since 1986 but I barely put my fingertips inside the holes and I never watched anyone do it but I'm glad you found a way to make the transition.
These days I get massive left leg and knee pain if I bowl too much... I'm almost 50 and out of shape so you know.
I've been bowling like this for 4 years and also been told I've been doing it wrong for 4 years, glad to see that's not particularly true.
I think anyone bowling this way will be told they are doing it wrong and to "put your thumb in the ball."
What I have found is that the people who tell me I'm doing it wrong are the people that are worse than me.
@@xjcrossx thats always the funny thing. happened at a tournament just yesterday, dude I was facing saw my first throw and laughed, “that’s seriously how you throw?” yeah… beat him by 67 pins, funny how that works
It hurts my thumb and wrist to use my thumb. It’s from injuries growing up.
There is nothing wrong when you throw it loft backwards straight or backup. As long as you can repeat your shot. No one can beat you.
I've been bowling like this since my early 20's not very regularly but i digress, i find that watching belmo's approach helped me alot, the little hop step in it helps bunches, or atleast did for me give it a check you might like it
jason belmonte
I have met Mike a few times, extremely nice guy!
I met his sister Dana in 1994 during a bowling tournament. Nice lady very humble.
Miller was a very good bowler. There was a time I wanted to throw it just like him and I was close until my wrist got injured.
Thanks for the time and effort you put into this video, very informative. Great work.
Been bowling 1 Hand no thumb for the last 17 years. Average 210. Couple 300s. Don't know how I started bowling that way but it's worked for me quite well.
I just started today cause my thumbs been getting tore up from the thumb hole. The idiot at the shop didn’t put my pitch right. But it feels crazy to bowl with two fingers. I was throwing huge hooks
Depends how comfortable things are for people. I was a no thumber for years but had used balls, all of which sported thumb holes.
Was warned of the upcoming rule change back in Sept. 2018 and I went the Smallwood way (thumb into 1st joint) instead of plugging a bunch of holes. It's kind of interchangeable, I could still toss an orb with no thumb hole with the same style.
I guess if you are able to hold the ball that way.
Smallwood's thumb is not in typical place. He basically palms it and his thumb is pointed forward, not back.
So his thumb is in pretty much the same place as most 1 hand, no hand bowlers.
@@nothumbbowler1802 I've tried inserting my thumb the whole way and it was a mess. Apparently Wesley Low gets away with that. Have you tried thumb into first joint yet if you wanted to test a ball that had a thumb hole?
You're right about the placement, balls with long spans can give me trouble unless I switch to ring and pinky because the middle finger is nearer to the thumb than those other two digits.
@@coopergates9680 I'm not sure how you hold the ball, but you give the impression that you have a large hand or long fingers and ability to hold ball in different ways.
I have no such ability to throw differently drilled balls at all. Everything has to be perfect.
As seen clearly in linked video below, Smallwood's thumb it not pointed backwards like just about everyone else who puts their thumb in the ball. It is pointed forward.
So, Smallwood's grip is much closer to say Tom Daugherty, than someone's whose thumb points backwards.
Thumb pointed forwards or back is really more important than if it is in a hole or not.
ruclips.net/video/q7GnNvEEwY8/видео.html
I just got my first ball a few months ago. I wanted to hook it so bad I tried everything and nothing worked. Two finger no thumb was a disaster as I kept coming over the top of the ball. I settled on bowling straight with traditional grip and focusing on fundamentals like footwork and keeping my hand low and inside the ball. Got pretty good bowling straight, but that gets boring so I tried two finger no thumb again and threw the most beautiful hook across the lane and into the pocket! Now I'm bowling close to 200 with only a couple months practice. I think the key is to try to not over hook the ball. With good fundamentals, the two finger no thumb grip will do all the work for you. I still revert to traditional grip for spares. Not ideal, but that's the only way I've found a little success in this very difficult game.
Mike Miller and Tom Daugherty both shoot spares straight with thumb. For house shot and league, it doesn't matter. But it someone every wants to move up to more competitive bowling, then it will.
Thanks this was great, i am a thmubless bowler now and i think this analysis is gonna help me out.
Can you break down Tom D? Your comment at the beginning rings loud…we are very limited in terms of people we can study. Seeing part of the shots from behind are very helpful. Keep presching
I’ve been bowling two fingers for years but my wrist would be super sore the next day. I recently started not putting my fingers in all the way and that has helped with the soreness and my ball speed is up.
Putting the fingers in more can cause the need for more flexion in the wrist. This can mean more control. But it can take some time for the hand to adapt to this. It's not something which can be learned quickly. The body has to adapt - muscles and attachments need to gain strength and flexibility.
Using a lighter weight ball may be the best option for getting used to this.
Putting fingers in less is easier on the hand and wrist. But it may also be harder to hold the ball.
Your progress is very noticeable. Especially your off hand. It used to flail around and now it's in control and in sync with the entire motion.
Great explanation of the the way we bowl... let me know if you if you have any questions on grips or pitches I've try alot of different ones over the years 😆 👍👍
Thanks. I'm glad the video makes sense to other people.
I've played around a lot w/ grips and pitches.
Eventually I found that by pitching the fingers pointed more towards the thumb, it allows me to better grab onto the ball. So I have a lot of left pitch. Oval grips and now gluing them down deep into the holes.
Reverse pitch was a total disaster. So at 1/8 forward.
Sure, would love to hear other things people have learned.
I think it someone has larger hands, grip would probably be easier to find something that works.
i am the 300th subscruber i just realized, how fitting
This was very helpful ty
i wanna try it out, ty for the vid
What made you decide to bowl no thumb?
I'm 49 now. I haven't bold since I was 10.
Right handed with my thumb strong hook.
No, I have thumb problems and I've been bowling for a month and a half.
I've been thinking about it and decided today that I'm switching to no thumb.
I've got no clue what I'm doing.
I'll get two strikes in a row and then three or four cutter balls in a row.
Not to mention my wrist hurts or more specifically the forearm close to the wrist on the bottom hurts.
But I have way more hook potential until my wrist acts up than I did with my thumb in.
Some people are telling me now I have to plug my thumb holes so I don't get in trouble during league.
Hopefully I can learn to bowl when handed no thumb.
These videos are helpful to me
I always had a lot of trouble with my grip, would spend a few games trying to get tape right, usually it would never happen, tried over 100 different drillings, nothing was good and it was clear that I would never be good enough to compete in sport shot tournaments with my thumb.
1 hand with thumb seemed to be an easier switch than going 2 handed.
Yes, you would have to have thumb plugged. I don't know what you are doing, obviously haven't seen you bowl, but for me it took time to develop wrist and bicep strength. A heavy ball is not needed. In fact, it is a major misconception.
Anyway, if someone is learning how to bowling without their thumb and runs into problems because their wrist is acting up from the weight, I would suggest they think about getting a 12-14 lb ball.
Also, you don't want to injury yourself by using a too heavy ball. I did that early on. Eventually I got to a point where I could no thumb a 16 lb ball (not what I typically use) but if I could do it all over again, would have just used 12 or 13lbs the first year at least. Because then it got to point where I hurt myself - plus a biceps injury and I was forced to use 12 lbs for some time.
Still have cashed in multiple sport shot tournaments with 12 lbs. No one has any idea. Weight is the single most overrated, misunderstood part of bowling. Art Of Bowling has a good video about it.
@@nothumbbowler1802 unfortunately i already bought (13) 15lbers so I'm kinda stuck with it.
I've only drilled 5 of them so far tho.
The problem I have with 12 to 14 lb balls is they seem to always have a much higher RG and often a lower differential.
Yeah the underside of my wrist like the forearm where the veins are is really sore after my first time trying only fingers and I'm not sure if it's my bicep, but between my bicep and forearm on the inside of the elbow that's pretty messed up right now.
Maybe I'll grab a used 12lb ball till i get used to the new form.
Elbow flexion increases rev rate on the downswing
I think I need to get new tips. RightNow mine go to the first joint, and I have a buddy that can put his fingers into the second joint. It does feel like you can control the ball a lot more walking up and it's not as wobbly when you're bringing it back.
I think a lot depends on size of hands, and how you hold the ball.
From watching enough video, I think Tom Daugherty is just regular finger tip.
I've thrown enough shots with poor control of ball to know, the ball can't feel wobbly. Other than how it's held with fingers, getting the ball under the shoulder and cradling it is so important as well.
@@nothumbbowler1802 i have pretty big hands, wingspan anyway, and I use 2 fingers. But there are a lot of times as I walk up I feel it moving back and forth. 1 out of 20 times i'll stop and adjust, but damn does it cost me. I thought about wearing a glove for grip, but that didn't feel right either. I really liked seeing a bro bowler using 2 fingers
We really need to know what Mike and Tom's finger pitches were.... this makes a big difference in ball control and release...
It would be interesting.
Personally, I have tried dozens of different finger pitches, and could not bowl nearly as well as I do, if I didn't have it as absolutely perfect as I can make it. Everyone has different hands, so I don't think there is one way that can work for everyone. But I hate to see someone being limited because their ball is not drilled for their game, and the only thing their pro-shop guy knows how to do is drill two holes with 3/8 lateral pitch away from each other.
@@nothumbbowler1802 I'm at a 1/2 MF, 1/4 RF.... in process of trying new forward pitches... Just had an old ball drilled 0,0 as benchmark from old balls and will start looking to move the forward pitch in fingers if needed... so I will see how that goes...
I would like to try it as well.
Which is better finger tips or the second joint?
depends on preference and ability i believe...i bowled with just my finger tips in the ball for years and trying it at the second joint wasnt horrible...i just prefer finger tip much more than anything else
I don't think one is better than the other. If your hand is large enough, I guess finger-tip.
I may make a video on some drilling experiments I've done. Second joint may require more trial and error to get everything right. Finger pitches, grip size, how to hold it.
i use my pointer and middle finger only and grip the ball with my fingers a lot to the left i’ve never been able to bowl with my thumb
I've never been able to bowl w/ my thumb either. Didn't stop me from spending over 20 years trying to.
So when I started bowling I just pulled regular until one day I started doing no thumb and I swear my my game went through the roof up when I quit bowling my average was 244
I know this guy he comes to the bowling alley here in New Mexico
I bowl no thumb but after 2 games my left hip hurts so bad. I'm 37 so understandable but it hurts so bad I have to stop and it's hard to get better when I cant do more than 2 games every few days.
Leg soreness is common at first. It should get better the more often you practice. Otherwise, the most underappreciated part of bowling is physical fitness. Working more on exercise and flexibility off the lanes has helped me out.
To me, it appears that Mike Miller uses more of a semi-fingertip grip, not a conventional grip.
Maybe. Don't have best video of what exactly he's doing.
Also, didn't Miller at one point switch to using ring and pinky fingers?
@@coopergates9680 Yes, he did. About a year later!!!
This is how I bowl
Mike miller is my grandpa
I find it way easier to go ahead and put it on my forearm and hold it with my grip i dont like to feel it ever come off my forearm even a little bit
That's probably the best way for most people. the wrist/hand will have a much harder time supporting the weight and can cause injury. Staying under the ball with forearm also creates stability.
That being said, I support ball on wrist/hand.
All you do is lose power and accuracy
Mike Miller was in great physical shape to throw it like that though, not like the ordinary Joe Slob at league in smalltown somewhere.
Lifted weights, ran etc.
Physical fitness is the most underappreciated part of bowling.
@@nothumbbowler1802 you're 100% right. I know in my many years of bowling my best ones were when I was in good physical shape. Helped me immensely. Also gave me confidence latter on in tournaments that I could keep going when a lot would tire out.