That's why Roy feels so different from chrom when it comes to timing the fast falls because due to roys stronger hitboxes there's more hitlag and the game "delays" more
Hitlag is the reason why Roy Nair1>Fsmash doesn't connect on the same percent as Chrom can Nair1>Fsmash. It's not even worth going Nair1>Fsmash on Roy since there are other easier kill options.
Jackson Sanders so Roy lost that combo in this game what a shame since that was one of his kill confirms cuz in Sm4sh first hit nair could combo into all smash attack I would know I played him 4 sadly to drop him for Lucina but my Marth, Lucina and Roy were all pretty good
I'd like to add that Shotos (and probably Terry) by design have *significantly* more hitlag than pretty much every character in the game. I believe electric attacks come close (they have a massive hitlag multiplier attached to the move), but Shotos hitlag beats out most characters otherwise. Extremely significant hitlag for other characters usually occurs only on _big_ moves (high damage, smash attacks). Also, Shoto light up tilt and light down tilt actually chain into themselves faster, allowing them to skip a lot of the end frames and making them far less than -9 on shield. I believe both are -3 if you chain them into themselves.
Hitstop also makes things feel better in general. It gives hits a sense of impact, and is often accompanied by subtle screen shaking. You can see this in beat'em-ups as well. Something else Ryu, Ken and Terry can do is buffer 2369 while pressing cstick dtilt on the 2 or 3. You can then, on reaction, press attack or special to cancel into command true Shoryuken. The reaction is just a button, instead of an input + button, which moves it well into feasible (similar to buffering 2xqcf on Terry ftilt and just pressing A if it hits to get buster wolf). This is more useful against parry attempts and unarmored but fast OoS options. (EDIT - You _can_ just buffer 2-3-2-3 etc. and press A/B, but by ending on 9, you are also guaranteed to get some version of shoryuken. It also works with uptilt, which is better pressure for catching jumps.) With Terry, you can use this as a form of charge partitioning and get to select rising tackle or command power dunk* instead. Though dtilt is not as "mashable" as Ryu/Ken's. Another interesting interaction is how hitstop frames can cause a dropped input (or rather, a buffer timeout) on FADC dash inputs; if you mash dash while holding focus, and you tank a particularly big hit, you can "lose" a dash input.
5:25 Hitlag is directly proportional to how much damage a move deals × its hitstun multiplier. Multi-hit moves tend to have low damage AND reduced hitlag to avoid things like Palu Nair Combos from taking forever. Anyway, getting spiked at 10% and 110% will have the same amount of hitlag.
@@SoloJones The formula is in the same SSB Wiki Hitlag webpage you used in the video. For Ultimate the Formula is ((Damage × 0.65 + 6) × HitlagMultipliers Any specifics should be on that webpage, but I might be able to answer some questions not on there.
I get this a lot with Megaman and armored moves. The lemons kinda freeze the opponent and they slow down just a little each time... Metal blade makes it even more obvious
Hitlag also makes Option Selects possible. OneSmash has a great series from smash 4 that still applies to ultimates buffer system. While hitlag makes things easier to react to - with option selects you dont have to rely on reaction anymore
That's why I only Aether out of shield against shotos if I'm reading a follow-up move to dtilt or if I don't think they will react. It's better against Ken because Ike can use Aether to stop crescent kick or down smash shield break/poke pressure, while Ryu pretty much only has Collarbone Breaker to mix up with, so he's more likely to just keep doing light utilt or dtilt on your shield. The real strategy vs shotos though is to play so that you never have to shield in the first place.
Hitlag is an important mechanic when you have projectiles with hurtboxes. I play pac Man. When you hit the hydrant, you get hitlag, but not your opponent.
RUclips recommendations at 1:30 AM decided to give me a video about the Ryu/Ken vs. Ike matchup, apparently. ... Not that I mind, since I play Ryu/Ken. Good video!
Shotos can hit rebels guard and cancel into focus to tank the little hit when they let go. Ideally, they don't let go so you can get a full focus But yeah, I saw Ken in the thumbnail, I clicked :)
Look for Ryu's frame data to see more accurate data. Ken's dtilt can be spammed before the end of the animation, whether it hits or not. So it's way better than -9. Same for up tilts.
Hitlag is also where SDI is applicable. Once you’re out of Hitlag then it’s regular DI. EDIT: Actually that is wrong. SDI works from 2nd frame hitlag until the last, and DI is only determined on the very last frame of hitlag.
@@MerryBlind no you don't, and sdi is better the earlier you use it. But once you're launch you can't influence it until you're actionable. Once actionable you can drift but it's no longer di
@@MerryBlind Amir is right. DI is only determined at the last frame of hitlag, after that any player-induced movement is called drift (which I don't think exists during tumble)
Hitlag is a basic game mechanic in all fighting and action games, calling it a hidden technique is definitely a bit much lol But yea, since smash generally doesn't have special cancels (among other types of cancels on hit) hitlag isnt as obvious or long as in other games, still important to know about tho
Within the vid they say "yeah hitlag is in every fighting game", so I'm sure they know this. The title likely uses the word "hidden" to make you more likely to click.
The Smash community just loves the word "lag". They not only call hitstop "hitlag", they call recovery frames "endlag" too. More confusingly, I've seen them say "shieldlag" to refer to both the hitstop on shield AND for the amount of frames it takes to drop shield (basically the animation recovery frames).
So what other down special is frame 1 and has sakurai not learned from his past mistakes cuz shine in melee was frame 1 with invincibility/intangiblility and was potentially best move in the game when it was just supposed to be a reflector Aldo when are you going to get a lab coat from gimr
Hit Lag is the better term, hit stop implies that there is a stop, sure, but it's too vague. Hit stop could imply stopping for one frame. Also Hit stop is unclear if it's for movement only. With hit lag it implies that there is lag after a hit lands, lag as in can't do anything during this time.
is this game becoming melee, Links bomb combos representing wave shines, Ness down b representing wave shines, wolf shine combos, attack cancels kinda similar to L cancels in a way, Shiek, falcon, Falco, Marth, every melee veteran that was top tier is good in this game, not jiggly tho rip, idj a useful yet really hard tech, sort of similar to perfect wave dashes in terms of usefulness,(Yes wave dash is still more useful) , b reverse and wave bounces, idk reminds me of moon walking, and backwards moon walking, not all techs are the same, but the fact that both games have alot of techs often requiring tight timing and good skill, I think they are both relatable,, foot stool combos, a diffcult yet useful tech, like how melee has techs with the same difficulty, I'm happy more and more techs are being found, but at the same time that's more for me to learn, which isn't the best thing
@@SoloJones Definitely true for a reaction. Terry'll get bopped for trying. As a read though, Terry can cancel to true power dunk or rising tackle and it will through Aether's upswing (and tag Ike in the air, in the case of rising tackle). Buster wolf as well (has just enough armor to get through unstaled aether).
wow Solo complains about the Shoto mu again smh smh (ok this actually did show me something new tho I knew Hitlag was a thing but I didnt realize it could be utilized like this)
You do realize that most things are guesses in a fighting game right? Yeah you react to some things but every move you make is a guess as to how your opponent can handle it or what tool he's using next. Again there are reactions you make but guessing is a huge part of any competitive game. He probably realized aether was an option and knew he would do it. Being ready for something and reacting to it is far different than just reacting. I'd be willing to bet he's used his down be after hitting an Ike on shield expecting aether and ike didn't use it and punished him one time or another. He could also dash cancel if ike mixed it up. So it's safeish.
That's why Roy feels so different from chrom when it comes to timing the fast falls because due to roys stronger hitboxes there's more hitlag and the game "delays" more
Same thing with Marth.
Yeah Roy's attacks have SOO much more hitlag
Also fire has lots of hitlag
Hitlag is the reason why Roy Nair1>Fsmash doesn't connect on the same percent as Chrom can Nair1>Fsmash. It's not even worth going Nair1>Fsmash on Roy since there are other easier kill options.
Jackson Sanders so Roy lost that combo in this game what a shame since that was one of his kill confirms cuz in Sm4sh first hit nair could combo into all smash attack
I would know I played him 4 sadly to drop him for Lucina but my Marth, Lucina and Roy were all pretty good
I'd like to add that Shotos (and probably Terry) by design have *significantly* more hitlag than pretty much every character in the game. I believe electric attacks come close (they have a massive hitlag multiplier attached to the move), but Shotos hitlag beats out most characters otherwise. Extremely significant hitlag for other characters usually occurs only on _big_ moves (high damage, smash attacks).
Also, Shoto light up tilt and light down tilt actually chain into themselves faster, allowing them to skip a lot of the end frames and making them far less than -9 on shield. I believe both are -3 if you chain them into themselves.
Hitstop also makes things feel better in general. It gives hits a sense of impact, and is often accompanied by subtle screen shaking. You can see this in beat'em-ups as well.
Something else Ryu, Ken and Terry can do is buffer 2369 while pressing cstick dtilt on the 2 or 3. You can then, on reaction, press attack or special to cancel into command true Shoryuken. The reaction is just a button, instead of an input + button, which moves it well into feasible (similar to buffering 2xqcf on Terry ftilt and just pressing A if it hits to get buster wolf). This is more useful against parry attempts and unarmored but fast OoS options.
(EDIT - You _can_ just buffer 2-3-2-3 etc. and press A/B, but by ending on 9, you are also guaranteed to get some version of shoryuken. It also works with uptilt, which is better pressure for catching jumps.)
With Terry, you can use this as a form of charge partitioning and get to select rising tackle or command power dunk* instead. Though dtilt is not as "mashable" as Ryu/Ken's.
Another interesting interaction is how hitstop frames can cause a dropped input (or rather, a buffer timeout) on FADC dash inputs; if you mash dash while holding focus, and you tank a particularly big hit, you can "lose" a dash input.
Sakurai gave us parries, use them :)
What’s stopping him from focusing out of a parried dtilt 🤔
Shotos can react to you parrying and use Focus attack anyway. :(
@@SoloJones Parry freeze will also give the Shoto player even more time to react!
What about footstool aether?
Or just parry grab
5:25 Hitlag is directly proportional to how much damage a move deals × its hitstun multiplier. Multi-hit moves tend to have low damage AND reduced hitlag to avoid things like Palu Nair Combos from taking forever.
Anyway, getting spiked at 10% and 110% will have the same amount of hitlag.
Wait is this true? I swear in my testing I saw hitlag increase with higher damage. Am I crazy?
@@SoloJones The formula is in the same SSB Wiki Hitlag webpage you used in the video.
For Ultimate the Formula is ((Damage × 0.65 + 6) × HitlagMultipliers
Any specifics should be on that webpage, but I might be able to answer some questions not on there.
I get this a lot with Megaman and armored moves. The lemons kinda freeze the opponent and they slow down just a little each time...
Metal blade makes it even more obvious
Hitlag also makes Option Selects possible. OneSmash has a great series from smash 4 that still applies to ultimates buffer system. While hitlag makes things easier to react to - with option selects you dont have to rely on reaction anymore
I wouldn’t say n-air got nerfed. It’s just that now, Ike’s kill confirms with n-air start at earlier percents. The back hit is still the same.
That's why I only Aether out of shield against shotos if I'm reading a follow-up move to dtilt or if I don't think they will react. It's better against Ken because Ike can use Aether to stop crescent kick or down smash shield break/poke pressure, while Ryu pretty much only has Collarbone Breaker to mix up with, so he's more likely to just keep doing light utilt or dtilt on your shield. The real strategy vs shotos though is to play so that you never have to shield in the first place.
Hitlag is an important mechanic when you have projectiles with hurtboxes.
I play pac Man. When you hit the hydrant, you get hitlag, but not your opponent.
RUclips recommendations at 1:30 AM decided to give me a video about the Ryu/Ken vs. Ike matchup, apparently.
... Not that I mind, since I play Ryu/Ken. Good video!
I notice hitlag a lot. Almost positive it increases pretty drastically depending on the strength of the move. Makes moments seem more dramatic.
Gee it's almost like Sakurai increased Hitlag for this exact purpose
This information is doubly valuable to me because I play both Ike and Ken
Shotos can hit rebels guard and cancel into focus to tank the little hit when they let go.
Ideally, they don't let go so you can get a full focus
But yeah, I saw Ken in the thumbnail, I clicked :)
Yoo that’s a good example thanks!
Look for Ryu's frame data to see more accurate data.
Ken's dtilt can be spammed before the end of the animation, whether it hits or not.
So it's way better than -9.
Same for up tilts.
Hitlag is also where SDI is applicable. Once you’re out of Hitlag then it’s regular DI.
EDIT: Actually that is wrong. SDI works from 2nd frame hitlag until the last, and DI is only determined on the very last frame of hitlag.
Di is calculated at the last frame of hit lag. So once you're flying off stage your course is already set
@@ChoccyMilk777 No. The earlier the DI the more effective it is but you still influence it all the way through tumble.
@@MerryBlind no you don't, and sdi is better the earlier you use it. But once you're launch you can't influence it until you're actionable. Once actionable you can drift but it's no longer di
@@ChoccyMilk777 huh I guess we just have a different definition of DI lol
First time I hear about everything you just said I’ll double check.
@@MerryBlind Amir is right. DI is only determined at the last frame of hitlag, after that any player-induced movement is called drift (which I don't think exists during tumble)
I can imagine donkey kong’s up-b & side-b could be heavily affected by this considering their large ammount of startup and armor
Hitlag is a basic game mechanic in all fighting and action games, calling it a hidden technique is definitely a bit much lol
But yea, since smash generally doesn't have special cancels (among other types of cancels on hit) hitlag isnt as obvious or long as in other games, still important to know about tho
Within the vid they say "yeah hitlag is in every fighting game", so I'm sure they know this. The title likely uses the word "hidden" to make you more likely to click.
6:16 nice comment lol
And there's like a full SECOND of hitlag when you focus someone else's focus
Ah yes my favorite move, AYYther
Hitlag- hidden tech hol up
Bro now i wanna play FE radient dawn cuz of the music🔥
The Smash community just loves the word "lag". They not only call hitstop "hitlag", they call recovery frames "endlag" too. More confusingly, I've seen them say "shieldlag" to refer to both the hitstop on shield AND for the amount of frames it takes to drop shield (basically the animation recovery frames).
So what other down special is frame 1 and has sakurai not learned from his past mistakes cuz shine in melee was frame 1 with invincibility/intangiblility and was potentially best move in the game when it was just supposed to be a reflector
Aldo when are you going to get a lab coat from gimr
Great video man :)
WGATS THAT SONG??
Pikachu with any move clanking with t jolt
Hit Lag is the better term, hit stop implies that there is a stop, sure, but it's too vague. Hit stop could imply stopping for one frame. Also Hit stop is unclear if it's for movement only. With hit lag it implies that there is lag after a hit lands, lag as in can't do anything during this time.
And also dtitlt cancel into down b
is this game becoming melee, Links bomb combos representing wave shines, Ness down b representing wave shines, wolf shine combos, attack cancels kinda similar to L cancels in a way, Shiek, falcon, Falco, Marth, every melee veteran that was top tier is good in this game, not jiggly tho rip, idj a useful yet really hard tech, sort of similar to perfect wave dashes in terms of usefulness,(Yes wave dash is still more useful) , b reverse and wave bounces, idk reminds me of moon walking, and backwards moon walking, not all techs are the same, but the fact that both games have alot of techs often requiring tight timing and good skill, I think they are both relatable,, foot stool combos, a diffcult yet useful tech, like how melee has techs with the same difficulty, I'm happy more and more techs are being found, but at the same time that's more for me to learn, which isn't the best thing
Wasnt this like common knowlegde?
Well yeah people know it exists, it's just that he's explaining a situation where it matters frame data wise
Only Ken and Ryu? Not Terry?
Terry doesn’t have focus and none of his special moves are fast enough to beat aether or escape
@@SoloJones Definitely true for a reaction. Terry'll get bopped for trying.
As a read though, Terry can cancel to true power dunk or rising tackle and it will through Aether's upswing (and tag Ike in the air, in the case of rising tackle). Buster wolf as well (has just enough armor to get through unstaled aether).
wow Solo complains about the Shoto mu again smh smh (ok this actually did show me something new tho I knew Hitlag was a thing but I didnt realize it could be utilized like this)
I just wanted to explain myself 😭
Sooo that why I've been limping people online with ryu lately
You do realize that most things are guesses in a fighting game right? Yeah you react to some things but every move you make is a guess as to how your opponent can handle it or what tool he's using next. Again there are reactions you make but guessing is a huge part of any competitive game. He probably realized aether was an option and knew he would do it. Being ready for something and reacting to it is far different than just reacting. I'd be willing to bet he's used his down be after hitting an Ike on shield expecting aether and ike didn't use it and punished him one time or another. He could also dash cancel if ike mixed it up. So it's safeish.
Did you even watch the video
it's just shoto in general
5:56 u got hit for being offscreen...
You switched the video half way thru
Huh
That just sounds like lag with extra steps
Bruh
I never got that “your character carried” what if you are complete shit with the character that apparent,y carries
Thats why Shodo matchup sucks
All the real homies hate ultimate