Hey guys! I believe that an Automatic Air to Air Refueling System in DCS World built with realism and immersion in mind would be Win-Win-Win for Beginners, DCS Veterans and the members of our community that are working through physical disabilities or challenges!
That will be a huge no. 15 years ago I guess it was Falcon BMS had air-to-air refueling. It's not automatic nor should it be. You put the time in to learn to fly and fight so put the time in to learn to refuel. There were missions that I simply could not complete in falcon BMS unless I was able to complete the refueling so I learned. And I enjoyed the simulation far more because of it. Frankly, this is what's wrong with our society right now. We make things too easy. Easy times make weak men.
@@Darren4352 not all of us have endless hours to game. I am a competent pilot however AAR is still challenging and a simplified process would be great.
@@Darren4352 bud, it's game not a training sim for war. It's also a game that currently allows you to zoom, use external views, use labels, F10 maps with visible enemy, air spawn, auto start, be invulnerable and have unlimited fuel and ammo.
@@Darren4352 I see where you're coming from and I like the learning aspect of DCS a lot. Nothing's better than reaching the moments where you finally nail it for the first time and it suddenly becomes second nature later on. But given the fact that there's so many factors like available time, controller setup, VR capabilities (on both the rig and the one using it) that all can make such a huge difference. I can still remember when I nailed it for the first time in Fighter Bomber / Strike Aces from the late 80s on the Amiga. That was one heck of a glorious moment... guess what? Once "hooked up" it basically entered some kind of simple AP and would only let you come off by throttling down. Same a few years later in Super EF2000. Darn, that was hard to get it hooked up, but again, when finally getting there, I could sit back and relax until I heard "Indicating full, clear to break.". Then a few years later again with LOMAC I was like "Now I wanna do this myself completely at last" and did it, but it wasn't easy and I ended up not doing it a lot, simply because it rarely was actually vital since I flew the A-10 mostly, which I'd usually even only take with 50% fuel anyways and only flying the Flankers every now and then. Went over to doing it in the DCS A-10 a few times, but for said reasons, never delved into it too much. It took me to having the Hornet to actually feel the need getting into it and I spent a lot of time just training, but it still kept being a quite hard thing. Well, until I got the CV1 and did it in VR. Was almost like I've been doing it forever and it was just another brisk stroll in the park. I still suck at doing it in the Harrier and Tomcat though, but I know I just need to practice. Now the next step will be swapping that low res (2048 positions per axis) Sidewinder FFB2 for the TMWH grip on the Moza AB9 (64k positions per axis and a noticable larger leeway, especially with an extension which I'm going to use), I guess that will make doing those micro corrections so much easier... And to put a word on the whole thing, if I just was about getting into the whole thing, I'd love to have an easy mode _option_ that would act like how it was implemented in Super EF2000. But to add another idea: Some sort of overlay that basically shows my stick position and also where I'd have to move it in order to stay right there (same for throttles) would be neat. Kinda like a virtual flight director thing that's only available with en _option_ for it enabled. Same thing would be great for landings BTW. Stuff like that can make it easier to learn stuff until you come to a point where you can ditch 'em and just keep going on. Il-2 (the old one) back in the day had a console command for showing where you were hitting other planes, that helped me a lot for gauging the shots... later in Rise of Flight I even used to slow down time until I realized I gave like 69 times the lead than I needed to. After a week or so I was a significantly better shot in that sim without time compression as well. BTW same with the aiming help it has. Switched that off after a few hours though XD Bottom line: _Options_ are the way to go. If you don't like or need them, just keep em turned off.
As a disabled DCS playing who flies using a trackpad as a virtual joystick, voice controls and eye tracking, automatic air refueling would be a game changer for me! I have been talking about wanting that for years.
Su-33 actually has something akin to it already. it's a horrible AC to AAR regardless. but it does have a AAR Semi-Auto-pilot used to Refueling. Hope they see this video and hears the people sooner rather than later so you can enjoy DCS to the fullest m8 :D Either way I believe in ya m8, with or without it you can do it :D just gotta awaken the inner stubborn ;) but I do agree, the game needs this.
Dude, I 100% agree with everything you said on this. Having flown real airplanes, going into a simulator, you really do miss the feel of the aircraft with everything, landings, flying formation, etc. I've only flown Cessna 172s and never in formation, but you are so right about the precision needed and the depth perception and the aircraft feel when tanking. I've only been able to hit the basket once in an F-14, after 3 or 4 weeks of trying, and even then, I was only able to stay connected for about 5 seconds.
💯💯💯 this ^^ (My eyes are complete and utter bullcrap, I basically have a totally aggressive foveated rendering going on in my eyeballs - keeping track of the entire sight picture in AAR is quite complicated and I need to hastily move my eyes around constantly to even get a kinda full picture in the first place)
Yet another disabled veteran who has flown DCS since the LOMAC days. In all those years I have successfully AAR'd 7 times due to my limitations (nerve damage). AAR is one of the only activities I am physically limited from doing, yet it is mandatory for any realistic mission of distance. This limits my ability to enjoy a major point of he sim, flying beyond your takeoff tanks and putting warheads on foreheads. Great idea Spud, and thank you for thinking of us! Hats off sir, Semper Fi stud!
Hey spuds rag's here, this would definitely help, especially being a DD214 hon. I have no feeling in my left shoulder to my left hand. It's all muscle memory and sometimes I have to look down at my f-18 TB for very small throttle corrections which makes it almost impossible. I can get it in the zone. It's just getting in the basket. It's so difficult especially when they throw severe weather aspects where the yaw of the aircraft is almost up to 7° to stay in it or to get close to it it with rudder control. The disabilities I have really compound the issue of trying to refuel. I believe that would be a fair and proper form of refueling. Noting we're not flying, the real aircraft were in a DCS world and depending on which multi-server, you're on what they want to do with the weather. Which compounds that as well. Ty for this video. Hopefully they'll take notice
As a former KC-130 AC, I agree. The more happy DCS’ers there are the better. They use the sim and buy modules. More complicated and expensive modules. As you know the Sim is always harder to fly than the real aircraft. Right again about having an arm rest. Allows fingertip and thus better and finer control.
That was my experience flying Cessnas going from sim training to flying them IRL. Although my single lesson in a R-22 helo makes me wonder if this isn't true for helicopters.
@@sahhull Were flight sims a part of your flight training? If so, how did they compare to the real deal? I checked with my log book, and I only had 1 lesson in one (this was decades ago), for 1 1/2 hours. That sim was harder than flying the Cessnas I later trained on. Visually, it was really lacking compared to sims today, which probably didn't help. When I did my single lesson in the R-22, I do think flying in DCS (The Mi-8 & UH-1H were already out) helped a bit, and the instructor commented that I did really well for my first flight.
@@burnttoast111 Zero sim time when I was learning to fly in the late 80's ... We had a cockpit from a wreaked Cessna but thats what the fire crew used to practice removing people from. Ive owned my R22 Just over 30 years! (Probably why I think DCS helicopters are easier)
@@Spudknocker I'm still on the Sidewinder FFB2. Moza AB9 on order. It will literally have a 32x higher polling range. Add an extension and it'll be an entirely different world. Probably like going from an XBox controller thumbstick to a Sidewinder... XD
Spud, brilliant! I am a physically disabled pilot. Automated Refueling would be a God's send for me. That is the one area in DCS that so frustrating for me. Thumb's Up to you!
Thank you, Spud, for advocating for making DCS more accessible. Some of the loudest voices in the community actually resist any ideas that make DCS more accessible.
AAR was such a pain for me to learn and it was such a huge reward to get it done in the hornet. Now, I enjoy AAR and my favorite jet to AAR is the F16. All the challenges you mention I definitely felt. I would love to see this feature to get more people access to do longer missions. Not only do I agree with helping disabled veterans, but would also like to consider people that are using entry level gear that might be as accurate that makes AAR a challenge due to fighting the hardware. Also, when it comes to multiplayer DCS and the amount of desync that you face when you are trying to AAR this system would be safer.
#1: add physics to the Basket line and basket #2: add some of the features IRL Tankers have, Lock-up/in for the boom to stabilize the Fighter taking on fuel. #3: add a feature where you can ask for one basket over the other instead of always Having Left then Right side, Like they can and do IRL. #4: (this one can be Mission/server side) but add the option in the comms menu to be able to ask the tanker to go above or below clouds/altitude it is at, and the speed up or slow down. #5: Add a AI-assisted Auto-AAR feature. with Half or Full Assist options in the Options tab, Not special tab, Options tab. #6: Finish the KC-135 MPRS so it works the way its supposed too work. having the ability to tank both Boom and Basket refueled planes as needed. Seeing as the MPRS or Multi Pod Refueling System is there for exactly that. For me personally the ability to AAR EVERY single jet in the game has helped me a lot more than any normal Formation flying ever has. AAR IS harder to do. and it makes you a much better formation Flyer in my experience. BUT that doesn't mean there shouldn't be an option like AI-Assisted AAR mode/ability for those who might be coming into DCS for the first time. even if you're just an observer for the first few times before you try it, if you're paying attention, you'll learn something you can use to get the hang of it. or like you said, flying home after 3-4 hours in the air after a mission, it would be nice to kinda just push a button (Like the "Ready Pre-Contact" keybind option) and it activates either a Half-Assist or full-Assist controlled by the games AI. Half meaning it does the minor corrections people have issues getting used to. and full being it takes full control until you give some sort of input telling it you have control again. Maybe I'm talking out of my ass. I love AAR. the harder the better as far as I'm concerned, but that's for me, however anyone else likes to do things is up to them. if they get the option and wanna use it, I'm not gonna stop them or say they're doing something they shouldn't. it's a game, you have to have fun in a game or you won't bother coming back to it again. I've said my piece I guess. would love to hear what people think of my options/opinions tho ^^
That's a very good point, this feature would help noobs plus anyone with a disability that struggles. I am able bodied and struggle to AAR the Harrier, it's a tricky beast to take to the basket for a drink believe me!
I see absolutely zero downside to this. Cuts down on frustration, makes it quicker for everybody to get topped up, opens up the possibility for way more large scale missions, and the optional nature of it appeasing the purists who want everything about -my- their sim experience to be as realistic as possible. 10/10 idea. DCS please let the 135 MPRS use its boom.
I think that would be an excellent feature for the aforementioned reasons. I remember Falcon 3 had an option to turn off AAA/SAMS. I remember in my attempt to go full hardcore, I kept that feature on but got frustrated every time I made it close to target but got shot down. I decided to turn the feature off and my enjoyment of the sim went up after experiencing my first successful shack and others after that. Eventually, I learned SAM evasion and turned the feature on when I felt ready for the challenge. Of course there were those who had some negative things to say about turning the feature off but I couldn't care less because it was my time and money spent. In DCS I simply avoid refuelling missions but I would love to do them again because they were fun in TFX and EF2000.
Agreed. Although I think AAR is not difficult in DCS and it's actually a lot of fun, a feature like this would increase inclusivity. In long missions you inherently need to refuel, and people are demanding a workaround from mission designers - but with the current tools it's next to impossible, best case it doubles our maintenance workload. A feature like this would make everyone happy.
Whole heartedly agree. I have been flying DCS for three years. And have been only able to make aerial refueling work twice. One last point. Money availability I truly can’t afford complex VR systems or costly flight controls. I use this simulation as therapy for my own combat related PTSD it’s relaxing and reminds me of my Air Force and army times. Maintenance of brotherhood and team building with like interested folks. I skip AAR flights for these same reasons you discussed. Plus one I don’t want to look like an inept fool while flying with my wingmen.
As someone who can't use VR/head tracking for medical reasons, I whole heartily endorse your recommendation of an automated system. Even if it took twice as long as a "Balancing move" it'd be a welcome addition especially to those playing with keyboard and mouse. We already have automated ground refueling/rearm so tbh I don't see any reason why it couldn't be added. I'm sure there would be a way to disable it's ability for those hosting a server if they considered it "cheating" but some of us don't play for realism and often times play offline (mission editor)
I suggested this "auto revo system" at the forum some months ago, for the F-14 by changing seats with RIO, so the A.I. pilot would take control and make the hard work, but Heatblur's guys said it wouldn't be possible.
Young me would've agreed with the purists, but the retired veteran me with dual radial neuropathy wholeheartedly agrees with you. It's so bad that I drop small lightweight things all the time unless I'm really intentionally gripping it hard. A bitch when doing something like cooking or flying. I can refuel and land on a carrier most of the time but it's much harder for me than most. Thanks Spud, and please do this ED!
I love dcs but am pretty awful and feel like I miss out on the joy of completing some of the amazing campaigns / missions I have bought because I can never aerial refuel 😢
I actually thought of this 2 years ago, I don‘t have a fancy joystick so „getting good“ is not a thing for me. I proposed it to other people and I was met with „Oh get good“, „Skill issue“ and all these other disappointing things. I then proposed how about our „ICE MAN“ can refuel for us and that was met with same kind of reaction which is kinda sad, let people have options is what I think, let them decide for themselves. Thank you spud, now I know I am not the only one who thinks this way.
Thanks Spud! What a great idea! I love to fly long missions, but my limited free time does not allow me to sit for hours to learn how to AAR. Hope ED will listen to this! Also we need a save game function for single player missions!
I agree whole heartily with this suggestion.. I am a disabled vet and am using a table, not even a desk, to use my HOTAS.. In time being possibly a yr or more before I'll be able to get a cockpit set up, even a very basic one because of being on a fixed budget.. Having a family and a fixed income are not really conducive to escaping the RW via DCS.. I also have a flat screen since my curved screen is well over 5 yrs old and not able to use the resolution of a 4K monitor.. It's sad when a computer setup is easier to purchase on a fixed income then a cockpit frame is.. I can finance a computer but can't finance a cockpit frame.. Okay, I'm done complaining.. Best of luck with getting Eagle Dynamics to add that feature, I'll sign a petition if you need it..
I don't see why the "purists" should complain about it, if they have ever crashed, they should not be ever flying again, but they do. We already have auto startups, an assist when hooking up on a carrier, unlimited ammo, fuel and invulnerability, cockpit zooming, and tags on units identifying them. I think an auto hookup for AAR would be welcomed.
The thing about purists who say you just need to git gud, nothing is stopping them from continuing to do things such as refuel in the most realistic way possible. It doesn't mean that everyone should be forced to do it. While I like the challenge and is why I play DCS, I understand many people do not want those specific challenged or cannot keep up with them. I never understood why people would resist adding features like this into a video game.
I would still 100% try and do it the old fashioned way, but I am 110% for this. This would make the sim much more accessible to new players, and probably help the playerbase grow.
I have for a long time had the opinion that DCS could use more automated features like automatic refueling and weapons deployment, but they should have the option of being enabled in the mission editor.
I only started DCS a few months ago, so my opinion holds very little weight, but I think it's a good idea to at least have options. The point of a simulator is that you can avoid the ugly parts like crashing and dying while focusing on the things you need or want to focus on. If we were using this for training for real life, it would be a different story, but at the end of the day, it's supposed to be fun. I still want to learn it and get good at it, I just don't thing it needs to be required all of the time.
Yeah, it's no different than having invincibility as an option, simplified controls/physics or the option to have unlimited ammo. It's not something you have to force on people, but making it an option to ease people into a very difficult game is helpful to newer players. Hell, I've been playing in one form or another since Flanker 2.5 came out, and flying the Hornet constantly, pretty much since the day it came out, and I'm awful at AAR.
The thing is, we already have client side helpers for that exact reason, like Auto-Rudder, Take-Off assist, as a way to include people with disabilities or limitations in hardware, so they can enjoy the warbirds. As a server configurable option an AAR assist would be perfect to enable more players to enjoy DCS.😊
@@shagrat47 Oh yeah. Honestly, it seems like it could all be as simple as just having the AI briefly take over to refuel the same way the AI does when you're flying.
I genuinely can never work the basket or boom in any plane I fly. No matter how much I practice, no matter the patience, no matter how still the tanker-- I just can't do it.
It just takes practice. When I first tried it a while back, my HOTAS I had just wasn't cutting it ( warthog base was mostly the issue). The striction on the base ( no matter what curves or deadzone I set up and attempted). Once I obtained a virpil base and better stick, and after practicing refueling I was able to connect with basket and probe. Best I can say is fly formation with the tankers ...take it nice and slow...very minor movements...its good to go up with another flyer to help you relax...hell, some DCS flyers "sing" or Humm while refueling. I helped train a few new flyers in hooking up to the tanker. If you get frustrated, back off, get your breathing controlled, and try to relax. It's one of the hardest tasks to perform ( other than Case 1 and Case III carrier landings. I know it can be frustrating as crap.
Omg this would be great. Even the ability for minor assist adjustability. This could not be more needed for me now dealing with a shoulder injury. I can handle so much of this sim. The aerial refueling is my only handicap.
I totally agree with you. It is particularly more difficult to refuel in flight with Boom aircraft (F-16, F-15, A-10,...) from my point of view, and it is often a pain. It would be nice to have this new feature in DCS 👍👍
Yeah I been turn away from F-16 squadrons, because I still have not been able to learn how to air refuel. Unfortunately, I don't have anybody really to show me how or tips besides youtube videos and as fun as they are. They don't show me what indo wrong, all the questions that I have.
Basically you are right, but AAR in DCS is unnecessarily difficult because it is simply not well represented, Boom AAR in BMS for example is much easier because the boom holds you in position in a very suptile way.
yeah no not at all lmao its a big issue but definitely not the biggest hurdle , their biggest hurdles are price of planes and equipment to play, broken planes, the time it takes to learn. not much can be done about the time it takes besides much better tutorials on aircraft. broken planes need to be fixed and the problem with expensive equipment will probably never go away
If there would be a chance to have this discussion with adults and with arguments instead of egos clashing, we may have progress here. I found one discussion on the forum extremely disheartening. A disabled guy asked for an assistant feature to help with AAR and was brushed off, immediately... seems if you are old and have physical limitations some people think your not made for DCS. The reoccurring argument of: "Multiplayer PvP/Cheat/unfair advantage" is totally irrelevant, as a) you can make it a server setting and b) we already HAVE Take-Off assist, Auto-Rudder and Auto Start-up in DCS, which all are client side options, that no one can even reliably notice and thus don't actually affect them... I don't know how many discussions we had, proposing at least an adjustable contact box or an optional relaxed lasso like connection to ease the learning curve. The full "Auto refueling"option would even be possible today with relative ease, as we have everything available in the script engine and AI already. Lock controls, switch to AI control, trigger AI refueling and give back control to the player after it's finished... though personally I would prefer helper options that can help to actually learn AAR by adjusting the difficulty, over time. But yeah, absolutely agree, this is something we really need in DCS, precisely because DCS offers an adjustable learning curve and advertises as "adjustable from beginners to expert level and for everyone's preference". 👍🏻
I totally agree. I was getting so frustrated with A2A refuelling using a flat screen. I almost chucked in the towel! I then purchased a Q2 VR headset and boom, first time. I managed to fill the tanks with only a few wobbles. I would have loved an auto system.
I agree at all. Es muy muy necesario, para facilitar la diversión. Un sistema automático o mejor aún, una ayuda al repostaje que aún permita algo de juego satisfactorio.
Hey Spud, glad to see you have NOT left DCS !! And I LIKE your idea of auto refueling feature. I cant tank up at all, its just to hard for me to do, so YES, this is a great idea
1000% Agree! Come of the campaigns especially need it as an auto option. The Raven One missions are super long and require fueling. Failing to fuel sucks after flying for over an hour.
@@DoradoFever yeah, but for the DCS community to grow we need to provide accessibility to people who also happen to have lives. Lol. In my opinion anyway. If they could sell another 10k copies then we'd probably get more campaigns.
@l8knight845 saying people need to have lives isn't really an argument. Especially when everything in DCS is a perishing skill. Take a break for too long and you will forget things or not be as proficient, just like real life. I'm not going to jump on my motorcycle the first session of the new season like I left it at the close of the previous season as I know I am going to be rusty and not up to the skill level and may take a couple laps to a couple sessions to get back to where I was.
I emphatically and wholeheartedly agree. This is a feature that could/should be modeled to be 'toggled' on and off by players as desired. IMHO, real life AAR is aided by feedback gained between the pilot and his seat (aka flying by the seat of your pants). We hobbyist "armchair pilots" can't leverage this essential feedback in making micro adjustments. I completely that this feature would encourage increased participation, especially for longer missions, by pilots of all experience levels. Thank you for sharing this.
Honestly I find when setting up my controls for a module I start with just what I need to get airborne and immediately hit the tanker. All of my curvature are set based off of what it takes to refuel the bird and I learn the handling of it from that curvature. I also see people shun turning your curvature up higher when doing say. Honestly it's pretty stupid to me. You should set your jet up FOR You, so even if your curvature is up in the 60s, it's fine. For example, my main jet (15E) is set for 57 on the X and Y axis, and I'm able to fly inbetween the tails of the flight lead, even with turbulent air. We're all different, so set your stuff up for what works for you. Hope this helps ❤
Yes! Awesome idea. Also, you made me think about a few things as to how my system is setup. I have been able to master everything in DCS World except the Air Refueling process. Most of the time I get in the cockpit after a long hard day at the office and I want to unwind. And not be faced with such a hard challenge, so I don't practice enough Air Refueling to get it down. Eventually I will, but your solution would then allow me to participate in PVP. Great idea. Thank you.
Also, with Maps larger distances between airbases, this would be highly helpful. Because of the complexities you talk of, we are more apt to build missions with bases closer to the front lines. We skip putting in A/A Refueling options in missions because of this, and therefore we put enemy bases on top of each other in missions. It would be so cool to have that option you are talking about. I think with newer pilots like myself, I would be more apt to learn A/A Refueling, but to not have to do it... would be a very cool option. Hopefully DCS is listening.
A rework of the refueling communication system would be a nice addition in that sense then. For example using a more step-by-step communications almost as quick time events for guys to still have that feeling that they're in the cockpit in control and not just along for the 5-10min refuel ride. What I mean is that the automated refuel doesn't plug and just hangs behing the basket until the player calls "ready pre-contact" etc. But I think we can be honest (and we all know anyway) that just like the ATC update and the DTC inclusion for mission planning, the AAR needs a considerable rework. As you stated Spud, irl boom being easier than drogue because now you've got another possible larger aircraft latched to you, dragging you and keeping you where you need to be, they could work on that and the physics of the baskets flopping around in the wind etc.
There should be native voice commands to your CPG, or WISO, or copilot. It makes the game so much more immersive when you don't have to use a wheel or venue option but just speak what you want your other guy to do. It's also pretty much a requirement in VR.
I was really happy when they added ACLS. You still run into a of situations where you’ll paddle out and land manually anyways. It just means I’m learning one more skill. Autopilot air-air refueling needs to be perfected in real life either way because of unmanned aircraft. I think the pilot receiving the fuel still has to fly manually even though there is some autopilot control even in the most advanced refuelers. I wonder if the MQ-25 could do it though. We’re going to need UAVs that can refuel UAVs so it has to happen, but would it ever help real pilots in low visibility situations. I’m all for it.
No long explanations needed. It gives a lot of pros for people who wants to use it and it takes absolutely nothing away from those purists. So there is really nothing that speaks against such a feature
Agree, I spent a lot of time trying to AR consistently. It affects many missions I'd like to participate in. It is such a perishable skill, fun to do but a unnecessary restriction when trying to participate in missions.
Thanks Spud! What a great idea! I play DCS for a while now and I've never done AAR :( no matter the time, practice, patience - it's like mission impossible for me! We have in DCS plenty help options eg. auto start-up and shutdown, unlimited fuel and ammo, unit tags, so why we can't have supported AAR? And in my opinion users who can do AAR shouldn't have any objections as they can simply do it as they do it today. I'm sure many of DCS fans would be very happy to have automatic AAR! I only hope ED will see and listen to this.
I love this idea. And it might not just be physical challenges, there could be intelectual challenges as well that could prevent someone from hooking up with a tanker.
I agree, ED can make a check box to enable the feature so "purists" won't have a cow over that, but one thing is - if they are disabled, then what is it that they cannot do the refueling the right way? If it's physical, then how do they do everything else? That is what needs to be tackled. If it's mental, then join the crowd, lol!
It’s been discussed a lot and ED has stated many times they have no interest in adding this. The majority of the players (in a forum poll) are against it as well. I think people who have put the practice into this feel like it would just invalidate the skill they’ve worked to acquire. Why stop with automatic refueling? How about automatic landing or aiming? Many players simply aren’t willing to put in the practice to learn this. That despite actually having many many hours in the game. They just haven’t chosen to put those hours into practicing AAR. There are people who can AAR with gamepads and keyboards too, and expensive HOTAS isn’t required. You make a very good point about ergonomics, but that’s easily solved. Having this as a mission option would mean it likely gets disabled in multiplayer anyways. For single player there’s always the option to just select unlimited fuel. If a server owner wants to be inclusive for a specific group or session they could always enable (local) unlimited fuel for the players and let them choose. That’s the easiest workaround and requires no changes to the game.
I absolutely agree. In my case, I can only play the game a few hours a week and in order to practice AA refueling I had to spend several weeks (and that's for modern fly by wire planes). All that time before I could jump to a somewhat long mission.
I can agree with automatic AAR, so long as mission makers can control if/when/how it is used. I do think it would be more important to prioritize core tanker AI improvements, such making them more environmentally aware and removing some core engine blockers (such as MPRS being unable to use its boom).
Hello Spudnocker. I like the idea of being able to switch the function off. If you're not forced to refuel automatically if you don't want to. Good idea 🤘
My greatest fear of this mentality, is the skill requirement of DCS being trivialized to the point where it is simply a more expensive Ace Combat clone. My positive opinion of this is catalyzed with the widespread use and acceptance of Auto Start and Stop functionality that is already in the game. Although I know how to start my planes, there are times where I really just don't want to be bothered with the process over and over and over again in a lot of the multiplayer servers that require a cold start. Aerial Refueling brought to the masses would increase the usefulness and the demand for tankers to be in these missions, and would give hardcore fans more tankers to choose from.
I think this should absolutely be added and would just bring more people into the community. Just add a toggle in multiplayer servers so folks running their own missions can turn it on/off.
I believe the first step should be a pop up of the PDL's, just like the ball when doing carrier ops. Further down the road I vote yes for optional automated AAR, the people that can do it still can if they wish and the people that can't won't be left out of long range missions. Thanks Spud!
I think this would be great addition. This would allow longer and more realistic missions for every one to try. Remember some DCS members are limited boith in time and equipment and may not be able to devote the tiem required to learn air to air refueling. Allowing the option to re-fuel normally should make both groups happy.
I’m for such a solution. As presented and optional could only result in more missions being played by more players with no real loss to the game itself, on the contrary
Whilst I absolutely agree that the challenge of AAR should be available, having the ability to enjoy MP without worrying about AAR limiting your actual on-task time would be great. Fight the jet and focus on that, which let’s be honest, is where a vast amount of time the module Devs spend developing. I can’t see any downsides to this. If a host doesn’t want this on their server, they can switch auto-AAR off.
yes, we dont have any propioception for location and movement in DCS. wich makes it harder and eyesight dependind, i think you have logic to your favor with this automatic refueling stuff, ty for always think on those of us who dont have the skills for this or those who are phisicaly challenged, ty for being in clusive and for making this kind of content.
I have slightly mixed feelings on this, but overall I think this an excellent idea. I fly (when I was flying that is... Been out of the cockpit for quite a while because of irl stuff) mostly VR with a Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS, but not in a super ergonomic configuration due to space and budgetary restraints, and I can totally agree with how the loss of being able to 'feel' the movements of the aircraft makes everything much harder. And AAR is definitely just about the most challenging aspect of DCS. Since your idea (as proposed) is entirely optional, it'll be up to each person individually to decide if the tradeoffs are worth it. I think though, it should require both being turned on in settings, as well as being able to be controlled in the mission editor (basically allowing mission designers to 'veto' the ability when creating specific missions/campaigns for certain groups/servers)
I definately support, the CONCEPT, but I believe your solution to be a bit, for lack of a better phrase, heavy handed. Also let me state that the only fueling I’ve done is probe and drogue, so what I’m saying here isn’t meant as a dig towards anybody. I don’t think the AI “tractor beam” method would appeal to anybody. That would take the “I DID it!” factor completely out. But I think there is a way to make this work to everybodies satisfaction 1: In the pilot profile section put a checkbox for the pilot, reading something like “I am handicapped/disabled”, or “I use special controls”, etc (my apologies I don’t do politically correct very well). That would put a tag on the pilot for the software to see this person might need some kind of assistance 2: In the ME, add a checkbox to the tanker behavior that makes it check the pilot for special assistance 3 Add special assistance options like Stabilize tanker speed Stabilize tanker line of flight Stabilize Fuel Hose There are a number of different options here available but I think you can see what I’m driving at I think this would be a more flexible option, as it wouldn’t require and on/off solution, and it would keep the purists happy because the function would not only be flexible enough for training purposes, but completely disabled as the mission designer desires. A solution for everybody
I’ve played DCS for nearly 10 years and have never been able to AAR. I’ve completely given up on trying anymore which prevents me from playing many missions. Yes bring on automatic AAR.
I know diehards will not want to change things when it comes to AAR, but for those that have tried and keep on trying, unsuccessfully, to refuel in the air some form of automated option should be allowed for. Even if it is an option in the game settings that can be switched on or off. I have tried for as long as I've had DCS, which is a few years now, to successfully link up to refuel. Whether it is my controller (Warthog HOTAS) or me not being precise enough I can not get the aircraft to refuel in the air. This makes long missions nigh on impossible for me to accomplish, not unless I have a friendly base near or a forward refuelling point on the ground. PLEASE ED can we have some form of automated AAR for those that have real trouble perfecting this part of DCS
Could come in handy for beginner pilots yes, but I wouldn't say it's a desperate need. (I personally really enjoyed the learning curve and practicing AAR. You can do anything with enough practice.)
This would certainly be cool and I agree that hardcore sim purists shouldn't be listened to, but unless it's a very quick thing to add I believe that there are much bigger problems for ED to focus resources on.
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Hey guys! I believe that an Automatic Air to Air Refueling System in DCS World built with realism and immersion in mind would be Win-Win-Win for Beginners, DCS Veterans and the members of our community that are working through physical disabilities or challenges!
That will be a huge no. 15 years ago I guess it was Falcon BMS had air-to-air refueling. It's not automatic nor should it be. You put the time in to learn to fly and fight so put the time in to learn to refuel. There were missions that I simply could not complete in falcon BMS unless I was able to complete the refueling so I learned. And I enjoyed the simulation far more because of it.
Frankly, this is what's wrong with our society right now. We make things too easy. Easy times make weak men.
@@Darren4352 not all of us have endless hours to game. I am a competent pilot however AAR is still challenging and a simplified process would be great.
@@Darren4352 bud, it's game not a training sim for war. It's also a game that currently allows you to zoom, use external views, use labels, F10 maps with visible enemy, air spawn, auto start, be invulnerable and have unlimited fuel and ammo.
@@Darren4352 I see where you're coming from and I like the learning aspect of DCS a lot. Nothing's better than reaching the moments where you finally nail it for the first time and it suddenly becomes second nature later on. But given the fact that there's so many factors like available time, controller setup, VR capabilities (on both the rig and the one using it) that all can make such a huge difference.
I can still remember when I nailed it for the first time in Fighter Bomber / Strike Aces from the late 80s on the Amiga. That was one heck of a glorious moment... guess what? Once "hooked up" it basically entered some kind of simple AP and would only let you come off by throttling down. Same a few years later in Super EF2000. Darn, that was hard to get it hooked up, but again, when finally getting there, I could sit back and relax until I heard "Indicating full, clear to break.".
Then a few years later again with LOMAC I was like "Now I wanna do this myself completely at last" and did it, but it wasn't easy and I ended up not doing it a lot, simply because it rarely was actually vital since I flew the A-10 mostly, which I'd usually even only take with 50% fuel anyways and only flying the Flankers every now and then. Went over to doing it in the DCS A-10 a few times, but for said reasons, never delved into it too much.
It took me to having the Hornet to actually feel the need getting into it and I spent a lot of time just training, but it still kept being a quite hard thing. Well, until I got the CV1 and did it in VR. Was almost like I've been doing it forever and it was just another brisk stroll in the park. I still suck at doing it in the Harrier and Tomcat though, but I know I just need to practice.
Now the next step will be swapping that low res (2048 positions per axis) Sidewinder FFB2 for the TMWH grip on the Moza AB9 (64k positions per axis and a noticable larger leeway, especially with an extension which I'm going to use), I guess that will make doing those micro corrections so much easier...
And to put a word on the whole thing, if I just was about getting into the whole thing, I'd love to have an easy mode _option_ that would act like how it was implemented in Super EF2000. But to add another idea: Some sort of overlay that basically shows my stick position and also where I'd have to move it in order to stay right there (same for throttles) would be neat. Kinda like a virtual flight director thing that's only available with en _option_ for it enabled. Same thing would be great for landings BTW. Stuff like that can make it easier to learn stuff until you come to a point where you can ditch 'em and just keep going on. Il-2 (the old one) back in the day had a console command for showing where you were hitting other planes, that helped me a lot for gauging the shots... later in Rise of Flight I even used to slow down time until I realized I gave like 69 times the lead than I needed to. After a week or so I was a significantly better shot in that sim without time compression as well. BTW same with the aiming help it has. Switched that off after a few hours though XD
Bottom line: _Options_ are the way to go. If you don't like or need them, just keep em turned off.
Wasn't in the F/A-18C Rising Squall Campaign already an automated airrefueling?
As a disabled DCS playing who flies using a trackpad as a virtual joystick, voice controls and eye tracking, automatic air refueling would be a game changer for me! I have been talking about wanting that for years.
Su-33 actually has something akin to it already. it's a horrible AC to AAR regardless. but it does have a AAR Semi-Auto-pilot used to Refueling.
Hope they see this video and hears the people sooner rather than later so you can enjoy DCS to the fullest m8 :D Either way I believe in ya m8, with or without it you can do it :D just gotta awaken the inner stubborn ;) but I do agree, the game needs this.
Dude, I 100% agree with everything you said on this. Having flown real airplanes, going into a simulator, you really do miss the feel of the aircraft with everything, landings, flying formation, etc. I've only flown Cessna 172s and never in formation, but you are so right about the precision needed and the depth perception and the aircraft feel when tanking. I've only been able to hit the basket once in an F-14, after 3 or 4 weeks of trying, and even then, I was only able to stay connected for about 5 seconds.
Inclusivity that excludes no one has no reason to be obstructed. I'd support this 1000%.
@@weaseal 100% man!
Well said.
💯💯💯 this ^^
(My eyes are complete and utter bullcrap, I basically have a totally aggressive foveated rendering going on in my eyeballs - keeping track of the entire sight picture in AAR is quite complicated and I need to hastily move my eyes around constantly to even get a kinda full picture in the first place)
Yet another disabled veteran who has flown DCS since the LOMAC days. In all those years I have successfully AAR'd 7 times due to my limitations (nerve damage). AAR is one of the only activities I am physically limited from doing, yet it is mandatory for any realistic mission of distance. This limits my ability to enjoy a major point of he sim, flying beyond your takeoff tanks and putting warheads on foreheads. Great idea Spud, and thank you for thinking of us! Hats off sir, Semper Fi stud!
Hey spuds rag's here, this would definitely help, especially being a DD214 hon. I have no feeling in my left shoulder to my left hand. It's all muscle memory and sometimes I have to look down at my f-18 TB for very small throttle corrections which makes it almost impossible. I can get it in the zone. It's just getting in the basket. It's so difficult especially when they throw severe weather aspects where the yaw of the aircraft is almost up to 7° to stay in it or to get close to it it with rudder control. The disabilities I have really compound the issue of trying to refuel. I believe that would be a fair and proper form of refueling. Noting we're not flying, the real aircraft were in a DCS world and depending on which multi-server, you're on what they want to do with the weather. Which compounds that as well. Ty for this video. Hopefully they'll take notice
As a former KC-130 AC, I agree. The more happy DCS’ers there are the better. They use the sim and buy modules. More complicated and expensive modules. As you know the Sim is always harder to fly than the real aircraft. Right again about having an arm rest. Allows fingertip and thus better and finer control.
That was my experience flying Cessnas going from sim training to flying them IRL. Although my single lesson in a R-22 helo makes me wonder if this isn't true for helicopters.
@@burnttoast111I own an R22.
In many ways DCS helicopters is easier than RL.
@@sahhull Were flight sims a part of your flight training? If so, how did they compare to the real deal?
I checked with my log book, and I only had 1 lesson in one (this was decades ago), for 1 1/2 hours. That sim was harder than flying the Cessnas I later trained on. Visually, it was really lacking compared to sims today, which probably didn't help.
When I did my single lesson in the R-22, I do think flying in DCS (The Mi-8 & UH-1H were already out) helped a bit, and the instructor commented that I did really well for my first flight.
@@burnttoast111 Zero sim time when I was learning to fly in the late 80's ... We had a cockpit from a wreaked Cessna but thats what the fire crew used to practice removing people from.
Ive owned my R22 Just over 30 years!
(Probably why I think DCS helicopters are easier)
@@sahhull I was only 5 or so years behind you, but it was a commercial flight school. But 5 years was a huge difference with computers/sims back then.
I totally agree. Especially for them with disabilities and those with less accurate hotas setups.
@@channelwright9137 oh god don’t even get my started on the X-56 Hotas haha
@@Spudknocker I'm still on the Sidewinder FFB2. Moza AB9 on order. It will literally have a 32x higher polling range. Add an extension and it'll be an entirely different world. Probably like going from an XBox controller thumbstick to a Sidewinder... XD
Spud, brilliant! I am a physically disabled pilot. Automated Refueling would be a God's send for me. That is the one area in DCS that so frustrating for me. Thumb's Up to you!
Thank you, Spud, for advocating for making DCS more accessible. Some of the loudest voices in the community actually resist any ideas that make DCS more accessible.
AAR was such a pain for me to learn and it was such a huge reward to get it done in the hornet. Now, I enjoy AAR and my favorite jet to AAR is the F16. All the challenges you mention I definitely felt. I would love to see this feature to get more people access to do longer missions. Not only do I agree with helping disabled veterans, but would also like to consider people that are using entry level gear that might be as accurate that makes AAR a challenge due to fighting the hardware. Also, when it comes to multiplayer DCS and the amount of desync that you face when you are trying to AAR this system would be safer.
#1: add physics to the Basket line and basket
#2: add some of the features IRL Tankers have, Lock-up/in for the boom to stabilize the Fighter taking on fuel.
#3: add a feature where you can ask for one basket over the other instead of always Having Left then Right side, Like they can and do IRL.
#4: (this one can be Mission/server side) but add the option in the comms menu to be able to ask the tanker to go above or below clouds/altitude it is at, and the speed up or slow down.
#5: Add a AI-assisted Auto-AAR feature. with Half or Full Assist options in the Options tab, Not special tab, Options tab.
#6: Finish the KC-135 MPRS so it works the way its supposed too work. having the ability to tank both Boom and Basket refueled planes as needed. Seeing as the MPRS or Multi Pod Refueling System is there for exactly that.
For me personally the ability to AAR EVERY single jet in the game has helped me a lot more than any normal Formation flying ever has. AAR IS harder to do. and it makes you a much better formation Flyer in my experience. BUT that doesn't mean there shouldn't be an option like AI-Assisted AAR mode/ability for those who might be coming into DCS for the first time. even if you're just an observer for the first few times before you try it, if you're paying attention, you'll learn something you can use to get the hang of it. or like you said, flying home after 3-4 hours in the air after a mission, it would be nice to kinda just push a button (Like the "Ready Pre-Contact" keybind option) and it activates either a Half-Assist or full-Assist controlled by the games AI. Half meaning it does the minor corrections people have issues getting used to. and full being it takes full control until you give some sort of input telling it you have control again.
Maybe I'm talking out of my ass. I love AAR. the harder the better as far as I'm concerned, but that's for me, however anyone else likes to do things is up to them. if they get the option and wanna use it, I'm not gonna stop them or say they're doing something they shouldn't. it's a game, you have to have fun in a game or you won't bother coming back to it again.
I've said my piece I guess. would love to hear what people think of my options/opinions tho ^^
That's a very good point, this feature would help noobs plus anyone with a disability that struggles. I am able bodied and struggle to AAR the Harrier, it's a tricky beast to take to the basket for a drink believe me!
I see absolutely zero downside to this. Cuts down on frustration, makes it quicker for everybody to get topped up, opens up the possibility for way more large scale missions, and the optional nature of it appeasing the purists who want everything about -my- their sim experience to be as realistic as possible.
10/10 idea.
DCS please let the 135 MPRS use its boom.
I think that would be an excellent feature for the aforementioned reasons. I remember Falcon 3 had an option to turn off AAA/SAMS. I remember in my attempt to go full hardcore, I kept that feature on but got frustrated every time I made it close to target but got shot down. I decided to turn the feature off and my enjoyment of the sim went up after experiencing my first successful shack and others after that. Eventually, I learned SAM evasion and turned the feature on when I felt ready for the challenge.
Of course there were those who had some negative things to say about turning the feature off but I couldn't care less because it was my time and money spent. In DCS I simply avoid refuelling missions but I would love to do them again because they were fun in TFX and EF2000.
Agreed. Although I think AAR is not difficult in DCS and it's actually a lot of fun, a feature like this would increase inclusivity. In long missions you inherently need to refuel, and people are demanding a workaround from mission designers - but with the current tools it's next to impossible, best case it doubles our maintenance workload. A feature like this would make everyone happy.
Whole heartedly agree. I have been flying DCS for three years. And have been only able to make aerial refueling work twice. One last point. Money availability I truly can’t afford complex VR systems or costly flight controls. I use this simulation as therapy for my own combat related PTSD it’s relaxing and reminds me of my Air Force and army times. Maintenance of brotherhood and team building with like interested folks. I skip AAR flights for these same reasons you discussed. Plus one I don’t want to look like an inept fool while flying with my wingmen.
As someone who can't use VR/head tracking for medical reasons, I whole heartily endorse your recommendation of an automated system. Even if it took twice as long as a "Balancing move" it'd be a welcome addition especially to those playing with keyboard and mouse. We already have automated ground refueling/rearm so tbh I don't see any reason why it couldn't be added. I'm sure there would be a way to disable it's ability for those hosting a server if they considered it "cheating" but some of us don't play for realism and often times play offline (mission editor)
I suggested this "auto revo system" at the forum some months ago, for the F-14 by changing seats with RIO, so the A.I. pilot would take control and make the hard work, but Heatblur's guys said it wouldn't be possible.
Thanks Spud for looking after the DCS for Disabilities community. 🎉❤ we just want to fly like everyone.
Young me would've agreed with the purists, but the retired veteran me with dual radial neuropathy wholeheartedly agrees with you. It's so bad that I drop small lightweight things all the time unless I'm really intentionally gripping it hard. A bitch when doing something like cooking or flying. I can refuel and land on a carrier most of the time but it's much harder for me than most. Thanks Spud, and please do this ED!
I love dcs but am pretty awful and feel like I miss out on the joy of completing some of the amazing campaigns / missions I have bought because I can never aerial refuel 😢
I actually thought of this 2 years ago, I don‘t have a fancy joystick so „getting good“ is not a thing for me. I proposed it to other people and I was met with „Oh get good“, „Skill issue“ and all these other disappointing things. I then proposed how about our „ICE MAN“ can refuel for us and that was met with same kind of reaction which is kinda sad, let people have options is what I think, let them decide for themselves. Thank you spud, now I know I am not the only one who thinks this way.
Thanks Spud! What a great idea! I love to fly long missions, but my limited free time does not allow me to sit for hours to learn how to AAR. Hope ED will listen to this! Also we need a save game function for single player missions!
I agree whole heartily with this suggestion.. I am a disabled vet and am using a table, not even a desk, to use my HOTAS.. In time being possibly a yr or more before I'll be able to get a cockpit set up, even a very basic one because of being on a fixed budget.. Having a family and a fixed income are not really conducive to escaping the RW via DCS.. I also have a flat screen since my curved screen is well over 5 yrs old and not able to use the resolution of a 4K monitor.. It's sad when a computer setup is easier to purchase on a fixed income then a cockpit frame is.. I can finance a computer but can't finance a cockpit frame.. Okay, I'm done complaining.. Best of luck with getting Eagle Dynamics to add that feature, I'll sign a petition if you need it..
I don't see why the "purists" should complain about it, if they have ever crashed, they should not be ever flying again, but they do. We already have auto startups, an assist when hooking up on a carrier, unlimited ammo, fuel and invulnerability, cockpit zooming, and tags on units identifying them. I think an auto hookup for AAR would be welcomed.
As an option, absolutely.
I totally agree. Auto pilot AAR or when you connect to the boom you won't disconnect unless you lower throttle.
Falcon 4 has It.....ive never Heard of Them complaining about It....
The thing about purists who say you just need to git gud, nothing is stopping them from continuing to do things such as refuel in the most realistic way possible. It doesn't mean that everyone should be forced to do it. While I like the challenge and is why I play DCS, I understand many people do not want those specific challenged or cannot keep up with them. I never understood why people would resist adding features like this into a video game.
I would still 100% try and do it the old fashioned way, but I am 110% for this. This would make the sim much more accessible to new players, and probably help the playerbase grow.
I have for a long time had the opinion that DCS could use more automated features like automatic refueling and weapons deployment, but they should have the option of being enabled in the mission editor.
I only started DCS a few months ago, so my opinion holds very little weight, but I think it's a good idea to at least have options. The point of a simulator is that you can avoid the ugly parts like crashing and dying while focusing on the things you need or want to focus on. If we were using this for training for real life, it would be a different story, but at the end of the day, it's supposed to be fun. I still want to learn it and get good at it, I just don't thing it needs to be required all of the time.
Yeah, it's no different than having invincibility as an option, simplified controls/physics or the option to have unlimited ammo. It's not something you have to force on people, but making it an option to ease people into a very difficult game is helpful to newer players. Hell, I've been playing in one form or another since Flanker 2.5 came out, and flying the Hornet constantly, pretty much since the day it came out, and I'm awful at AAR.
The thing is, we already have client side helpers for that exact reason, like Auto-Rudder, Take-Off assist, as a way to include people with disabilities or limitations in hardware, so they can enjoy the warbirds.
As a server configurable option an AAR assist would be perfect to enable more players to enjoy DCS.😊
@@shagrat47 Oh yeah. Honestly, it seems like it could all be as simple as just having the AI briefly take over to refuel the same way the AI does when you're flying.
Add to this a proper tutorial for AAR, possibly by using the auto AAR to show the visual queus so anyone able to can learn it much easier and faster
as an optional thing absolutely to help our new guys see how it should look as a practice tool as well.
I'm not smooth enough to air refuel yet either fa-18 f-14 or any of them it's so hard to fight pilot induced oscillation in a 2d monitor vs vr too
I genuinely can never work the basket or boom in any plane I fly. No matter how much I practice, no matter the patience, no matter how still the tanker-- I just can't do it.
You CAN do it! Just keep practicing.Try adjusting sensitivity and curve. I couldn't do it until I adjusted my curve and now I have no problems.
once you'll make it, every next aar will be so easy, keep working on it and i'm pretty sure in a day or within hours you can master it
It just takes practice. When I first tried it a while back, my HOTAS I had just wasn't cutting it ( warthog base was mostly the issue). The striction on the base ( no matter what curves or deadzone I set up and attempted). Once I obtained a virpil base and better stick, and after practicing refueling I was able to connect with basket and probe. Best I can say is fly formation with the tankers ...take it nice and slow...very minor movements...its good to go up with another flyer to help you relax...hell, some DCS flyers "sing" or Humm while refueling. I helped train a few new flyers in hooking up to the tanker. If you get frustrated, back off, get your breathing controlled, and try to relax. It's one of the hardest tasks to perform ( other than Case 1 and Case III carrier landings. I know it can be frustrating as crap.
If you can fly in formation, air refueling is no problem, believe me. Its all a matter of training and patience.
@@theDarkside798 I agree 100%.
Omg this would be great. Even the ability for minor assist adjustability. This could not be more needed for me now dealing with a shoulder injury. I can handle so much of this sim. The aerial refueling is my only handicap.
I totally agree with you. It is particularly more difficult to refuel in flight with Boom aircraft (F-16, F-15, A-10,...) from my point of view, and it is often a pain. It would be nice to have this new feature in DCS 👍👍
Yeah I been turn away from F-16 squadrons, because I still have not been able to learn how to air refuel. Unfortunately, I don't have anybody really to show me how or tips besides youtube videos and as fun as they are. They don't show me what indo wrong, all the questions that I have.
Just an auto trim switch function would help immensely
Basically you are right, but AAR in DCS is unnecessarily difficult because it is simply not well represented, Boom AAR in BMS for example is much easier because the boom holds you in position in a very suptile way.
Accessibility is DCS' biggest hurdle for reaching a broader audience.
yeah no not at all lmao its a big issue but definitely not the biggest hurdle , their biggest hurdles are price of planes and equipment to play, broken planes, the time it takes to learn. not much can be done about the time it takes besides much better tutorials on aircraft. broken planes need to be fixed and the problem with expensive equipment will probably never go away
This is the hardest part of any mission, For Me.
Doesn't have to be automatic, just easier, 😀 , maybe help from Tanker?
Great Topic once again.
If there would be a chance to have this discussion with adults and with arguments instead of egos clashing, we may have progress here.
I found one discussion on the forum extremely disheartening. A disabled guy asked for an assistant feature to help with AAR and was brushed off, immediately... seems if you are old and have physical limitations some people think your not made for DCS.
The reoccurring argument of: "Multiplayer PvP/Cheat/unfair advantage" is totally irrelevant, as a) you can make it a server setting and b) we already HAVE Take-Off assist, Auto-Rudder and Auto Start-up in DCS, which all are client side options, that no one can even reliably notice and thus don't actually affect them... I don't know how many discussions we had, proposing at least an adjustable contact box or an optional relaxed lasso like connection to ease the learning curve. The full "Auto refueling"option would even be possible today with relative ease, as we have everything available in the script engine and AI already. Lock controls, switch to AI control, trigger AI refueling and give back control to the player after it's finished... though personally I would prefer helper options that can help to actually learn AAR by adjusting the difficulty, over time. But yeah, absolutely agree, this is something we really need in DCS, precisely because DCS offers an adjustable learning curve and advertises as "adjustable from beginners to expert level and for everyone's preference". 👍🏻
I totally agree. I was getting so frustrated with A2A refuelling using a flat screen. I almost chucked in the towel! I then purchased a Q2 VR headset and boom, first time. I managed to fill the tanks with only a few wobbles. I would have loved an auto system.
1000% agree here as well DCS definitely needs this especially for campaigns that require it.
I agree at all.
Es muy muy necesario, para facilitar la diversión. Un sistema automático o mejor aún, una ayuda al repostaje que aún permita algo de juego satisfactorio.
Yes yes! Auto refuel would help my immersion because I struggle with it, so I have to build missions without that refueling.
Hey Spud, glad to see you have NOT left DCS !! And I LIKE your idea of auto refueling feature. I cant tank up at all, its just to hard for me to do, so YES, this is a great idea
1000% Agree! Come of the campaigns especially need it as an auto option. The Raven One missions are super long and require fueling. Failing to fuel sucks after flying for over an hour.
@l8knight845 isn't Raven One upfront with the difficulty on their campaigns?
@@DoradoFever yeah, but for the DCS community to grow we need to provide accessibility to people who also happen to have lives. Lol. In my opinion anyway. If they could sell another 10k copies then we'd probably get more campaigns.
@l8knight845 saying people need to have lives isn't really an argument. Especially when everything in DCS is a perishing skill. Take a break for too long and you will forget things or not be as proficient, just like real life. I'm not going to jump on my motorcycle the first session of the new season like I left it at the close of the previous season as I know I am going to be rusty and not up to the skill level and may take a couple laps to a couple sessions to get back to where I was.
Just load from save-game like in a computer game.
Oh...
@@dienicy Luckily, ED is going to add that...
somewhere within the next two decades! SCNR XD
I emphatically and wholeheartedly agree. This is a feature that could/should be modeled to be 'toggled' on and off by players as desired. IMHO, real life AAR is aided by feedback gained between the pilot and his seat (aka flying by the seat of your pants). We hobbyist "armchair pilots" can't leverage this essential feedback in making micro adjustments. I completely that this feature would encourage increased participation, especially for longer missions, by pilots of all experience levels. Thank you for sharing this.
Honestly I find when setting up my controls for a module I start with just what I need to get airborne and immediately hit the tanker. All of my curvature are set based off of what it takes to refuel the bird and I learn the handling of it from that curvature. I also see people shun turning your curvature up higher when doing say. Honestly it's pretty stupid to me. You should set your jet up FOR You, so even if your curvature is up in the 60s, it's fine. For example, my main jet (15E) is set for 57 on the X and Y axis, and I'm able to fly inbetween the tails of the flight lead, even with turbulent air. We're all different, so set your stuff up for what works for you. Hope this helps ❤
Would really love this feature, Falcon 4 BMS had this option just as you described like forever ago, so why not DCS?
Would be a nice option. Falcon BMS has this feature and can be nice for newer players.
I agree- I like the challenge of air refueling but we are not in the air, and it can be really difficult,
Yes! Awesome idea. Also, you made me think about a few things as to how my system is setup. I have been able to master everything in DCS World except the Air Refueling process. Most of the time I get in the cockpit after a long hard day at the office and I want to unwind. And not be faced with such a hard challenge, so I don't practice enough Air Refueling to get it down. Eventually I will, but your solution would then allow me to participate in PVP. Great idea. Thank you.
Also, with Maps larger distances between airbases, this would be highly helpful. Because of the complexities you talk of, we are more apt to build missions with bases closer to the front lines. We skip putting in A/A Refueling options in missions because of this, and therefore we put enemy bases on top of each other in missions. It would be so cool to have that option you are talking about. I think with newer pilots like myself, I would be more apt to learn A/A Refueling, but to not have to do it... would be a very cool option. Hopefully DCS is listening.
A rework of the refueling communication system would be a nice addition in that sense then. For example using a more step-by-step communications almost as quick time events for guys to still have that feeling that they're in the cockpit in control and not just along for the 5-10min refuel ride. What I mean is that the automated refuel doesn't plug and just hangs behing the basket until the player calls "ready pre-contact" etc.
But I think we can be honest (and we all know anyway) that just like the ATC update and the DTC inclusion for mission planning, the AAR needs a considerable rework. As you stated Spud, irl boom being easier than drogue because now you've got another possible larger aircraft latched to you, dragging you and keeping you where you need to be, they could work on that and the physics of the baskets flopping around in the wind etc.
Totally agree. Perfectly argumented. As long as it's an option that does not bother hard-core players, it would be a great feature.
There should be native voice commands to your CPG, or WISO, or copilot. It makes the game so much more immersive when you don't have to use a wheel or venue option but just speak what you want your other guy to do. It's also pretty much a requirement in VR.
I was really happy when they added ACLS. You still run into a of situations where you’ll paddle out and land manually anyways. It just means I’m learning one more skill. Autopilot air-air refueling needs to be perfected in real life either way because of unmanned aircraft. I think the pilot receiving the fuel still has to fly manually even though there is some autopilot control even in the most advanced refuelers. I wonder if the MQ-25 could do it though. We’re going to need UAVs that can refuel UAVs so it has to happen, but would it ever help real pilots in low visibility situations. I’m all for it.
I support this idea. My setup is sufficient for everyday missions, but it lacks the precision needed for refueling.
No long explanations needed. It gives a lot of pros for people who wants to use it and it takes absolutely nothing away from those purists. So there is really nothing that speaks against such a feature
Great idea 👍. I can only speak about the F-16, but remaining connected to the boom is a lot easier in RL than it is on DCS.
100% needed... so many missions or campaigns people are not able to do because they require aar... would be a great addon
Very nice idea. I quit Raven One campaign because of Revo.
@cleberbastazine4903 Same here. Mission 3 or 4 you fly for hours. Every time you line up the tanker it banks away. So frustrating.
This. I hope Wags sees this and makes a point to look to add it in game ASAP.
Also a carrier landing assist mode too would be a good idea afterwards.
Agree, I spent a lot of time trying to AR consistently. It affects many missions I'd like to participate in. It is such a perishable skill, fun to do but a unnecessary restriction when trying to participate in missions.
Thanks Spud! What a great idea! I play DCS for a while now and I've never done AAR :( no matter the time, practice, patience - it's like mission impossible for me! We have in DCS plenty help options eg. auto start-up and shutdown, unlimited fuel and ammo, unit tags, so why we can't have supported AAR? And in my opinion users who can do AAR shouldn't have any objections as they can simply do it as they do it today. I'm sure many of DCS fans would be very happy to have automatic AAR! I only hope ED will see and listen to this.
Totally agree with this. Would love to see DCS implement this.
I’m down for this. I’ve had many a flight where I’ve struggled with either focus, flying or both. It’s a win for all.
Chat with the folks from DCS for Disabilities!
@@Mekerakesh wayyyyy ahead of you there!
I love this idea. And it might not just be physical challenges, there could be intelectual challenges as well that could prevent someone from hooking up with a tanker.
I totally Agree with this idea this is going to help a lot people get back to bigger scenarios in DCS its going to be more fun too
I agree, ED can make a check box to enable the feature so "purists" won't have a cow over that, but one thing is - if they are disabled, then what is it that they cannot do the refueling the right way?
If it's physical, then how do they do everything else? That is what needs to be tackled. If it's mental, then join the crowd, lol!
It’s been discussed a lot and ED has stated many times they have no interest in adding this. The majority of the players (in a forum poll) are against it as well. I think people who have put the practice into this feel like it would just invalidate the skill they’ve worked to acquire. Why stop with automatic refueling? How about automatic landing or aiming? Many players simply aren’t willing to put in the practice to learn this. That despite actually having many many hours in the game. They just haven’t chosen to put those hours into practicing AAR. There are people who can AAR with gamepads and keyboards too, and expensive HOTAS isn’t required. You make a very good point about ergonomics, but that’s easily solved. Having this as a mission option would mean it likely gets disabled in multiplayer anyways. For single player there’s always the option to just select unlimited fuel. If a server owner wants to be inclusive for a specific group or session they could always enable (local) unlimited fuel for the players and let them choose. That’s the easiest workaround and requires no changes to the game.
I absolutely agree. In my case, I can only play the game a few hours a week and in order to practice AA refueling I had to spend several weeks (and that's for modern fly by wire planes). All that time before I could jump to a somewhat long mission.
No doubt this would be a game changer! Great idea and hopefully someone will see this and make it so!
And open the dang sighting window on the tanker! The automatic refueling is a great idea too. 😂
I can agree with automatic AAR, so long as mission makers can control if/when/how it is used.
I do think it would be more important to prioritize core tanker AI improvements, such making them more environmentally aware and removing some core engine blockers (such as MPRS being unable to use its boom).
Hello Spudnocker. I like the idea of being able to switch the function off. If you're not forced to refuel automatically if you don't want to. Good idea 🤘
My greatest fear of this mentality, is the skill requirement of DCS being trivialized to the point where it is simply a more expensive Ace Combat clone. My positive opinion of this is catalyzed with the widespread use and acceptance of Auto Start and Stop functionality that is already in the game. Although I know how to start my planes, there are times where I really just don't want to be bothered with the process over and over and over again in a lot of the multiplayer servers that require a cold start. Aerial Refueling brought to the masses would increase the usefulness and the demand for tankers to be in these missions, and would give hardcore fans more tankers to choose from.
Its the most frustrating thing...i skip it as i dont have the time or patience....yes i hear you cry
I think this should absolutely be added and would just bring more people into the community. Just add a toggle in multiplayer servers so folks running their own missions can turn it on/off.
No. Today i practise AAR on Phantom with 3 tanks 3 weeks after i broke my arm. A bad workman blames his tools.
that's an awesome idea, for me at least aar si difficult with mouse and keyboard
Well, it didn't take too long for the Purebloods to show up to piss on those less perfect than them.🙄
That would be amazing. Especially since occasionally stuff goes crazy because of lag.
I believe the first step should be a pop up of the PDL's, just like the ball when doing carrier ops. Further down the road I vote yes for optional automated AAR, the people that can do it still can if they wish and the people that can't won't be left out of long range missions. Thanks Spud!
I think this would be great addition. This would allow longer and more realistic missions for every one to try. Remember some DCS members are limited boith in time and equipment and may not be able to devote the tiem required to learn air to air refueling. Allowing the option to re-fuel normally should make both groups happy.
I’m for such a solution. As presented and optional could only result in more missions being played by more players with no real loss to the game itself, on the contrary
Whilst I absolutely agree that the challenge of AAR should be available, having the ability to enjoy MP without worrying about AAR limiting your actual on-task time would be great. Fight the jet and focus on that, which let’s be honest, is where a vast amount of time the module Devs spend developing.
I can’t see any downsides to this. If a host doesn’t want this on their server, they can switch auto-AAR off.
yes, we dont have any propioception for location and movement in DCS. wich makes it harder and eyesight dependind, i think you have logic to your favor with this automatic refueling stuff, ty for always think on those of us who dont have the skills for this or those who are phisicaly challenged, ty for being in clusive and for making this kind of content.
It needs to run and look better in VR lol
I have slightly mixed feelings on this, but overall I think this an excellent idea. I fly (when I was flying that is... Been out of the cockpit for quite a while because of irl stuff) mostly VR with a Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS, but not in a super ergonomic configuration due to space and budgetary restraints, and I can totally agree with how the loss of being able to 'feel' the movements of the aircraft makes everything much harder. And AAR is definitely just about the most challenging aspect of DCS. Since your idea (as proposed) is entirely optional, it'll be up to each person individually to decide if the tradeoffs are worth it. I think though, it should require both being turned on in settings, as well as being able to be controlled in the mission editor (basically allowing mission designers to 'veto' the ability when creating specific missions/campaigns for certain groups/servers)
I definately support, the CONCEPT, but I believe your solution to be a bit, for lack of a better phrase, heavy handed. Also let me state that the only fueling I’ve done is probe and drogue, so what I’m saying here isn’t meant as a dig towards anybody.
I don’t think the AI “tractor beam” method would appeal to anybody. That would take the “I DID it!” factor completely out. But I think there is a way to make this work to everybodies satisfaction
1: In the pilot profile section put a checkbox for the pilot, reading something like “I am handicapped/disabled”, or “I use special controls”, etc (my apologies I don’t do politically correct very well). That would put a tag on the pilot for the software to see this person might need some kind of assistance
2: In the ME, add a checkbox to the tanker behavior that makes it check the pilot for special assistance
3 Add special assistance options like
Stabilize tanker speed
Stabilize tanker line of flight
Stabilize Fuel Hose
There are a number of different options here available but I think you can see what I’m driving at
I think this would be a more flexible option, as it wouldn’t require and on/off solution, and it would keep the purists happy because the function would not only be flexible enough for training purposes, but completely disabled as the mission designer desires.
A solution for everybody
I’ve played DCS for nearly 10 years and have never been able to AAR. I’ve completely given up on trying anymore which prevents me from playing many missions. Yes bring on automatic AAR.
I know diehards will not want to change things when it comes to AAR, but for those that have tried and keep on trying, unsuccessfully, to refuel in the air some form of automated option should be allowed for. Even if it is an option in the game settings that can be switched on or off. I have tried for as long as I've had DCS, which is a few years now, to successfully link up to refuel. Whether it is my controller (Warthog HOTAS) or me not being precise enough I can not get the aircraft to refuel in the air. This makes long missions nigh on impossible for me to accomplish, not unless I have a friendly base near or a forward refuelling point on the ground. PLEASE ED can we have some form of automated AAR for those that have real trouble perfecting this part of DCS
Could come in handy for beginner pilots yes, but I wouldn't say it's a desperate need. (I personally really enjoyed the learning curve and practicing AAR. You can do anything with enough practice.)
This would certainly be cool and I agree that hardcore sim purists shouldn't be listened to, but unless it's a very quick thing to add I believe that there are much bigger problems for ED to focus resources on.