Andrew doesn't stream or make videos - but he does enjoy making custom Ark Nova maps! Check out his work on BGG! boardgamegeek.com/thread/3219625/fan-maps-oversize-and-terrain-madness boardgamegeek.com/thread/3228443/fan-maps-species-pairs-and-proxy-building
Some afterthoughts: - I could be underrating Repeat Assoc. Since there is a relatively good chance there's a 5/2 or 5/4 continent test, the repeats can help. It's great for going hard on a continent, but you're gonna be hoping you find all animals of that continent, more ideally one of the test continents. What I don't like is you are more pressured to go partners early (especially in higher player counts where they could be eaten up) and getting into situations where you wanted 2 different anyway and may not want to upgrade assoc (1 for an easy project and another for some animal you really want). - Probably hating on Snap Cards a bit much too. Yeah, it's nice to get those early snaps when the row is juicy, but then I'd rather have digging cards to spite (though that's an unfair comparison). Would rather take my chances with No Discard Cards to find a synergy with sunbathing/pouching/whatever. - Still don't like Kiosk Build even if you don't plan to upgrade Build (which is unlikely since you have no hand to influence your decisions). Only marginally better than pavilion build in some reasonably good scenarios for it. - The more I think about Hunter Animals, the more I hate it. A side effect of how it works if if you draw too many animals that you can't play/don't want to, your own hand is killing the augment. - When I said Money Sponsors was the king of stall, I half-lied (but it's ultimately true). Self-Clever Assoc can stall indefinitely. I don't know if this was the intention, but happily, I haven't been in a break-chicken scenario with that Assoc involved. Then again, I play Marine Worlds with 3+ players, so break chicken isn't as much of a thing.
bdw forgetting the sea turtle tank hunting synergy, smh also, self clever assoc is probably a bad stalling methodology even if infinite because then you have to spend all your X tokens on doing the project if the break is caused right after
there's better updraged cards specifically for stalling then sponsors 2, by a lot. sponsors 1 is just better, it gets rid of an x which in that specific scenario you can have "too" many, and gives more money. if your enemy does it well, you'll not repeatedly break 1 in stalling-scenarios anyway, forcing the enemy to break for a precise amount is maybe a bit annoying for him but defeats that usage completely, so they both only work repeatedly if you have sponsor cards to play, and there sponsor 1 is also more flexible self-clever assoc is in theory infinite but if enemy breaks directly after, usually you'll instantly want to assoc and bye-bye all those nice x' upgraded rock/water build however is infinite as well, as long as you left 2 money you can repeatedly just build a single pavillon on rock/water. the limit of rock/water places available should be enough for most cases i reckon, and no other drawback so that is the "king of stalling" in my book (as if it needed that, being broken already)
The repeat partner zoo also offers multiples on the 3 money discount (If you have multiple partner zoos of the same continent, EACH of them reduces the cost of each animal you play from that continent). Taking 12 dollars off an elephant is massive. Additionally the second side allows you to take multiples of the new universities (You can also take any new university that is still avalaible. Take it from beside the Association board and leave the generic university where it is). So if you upgrade association early, you can potentially snatch 2 symbols at once (1 from the uni, 1 from searching for the card with that animal symbol) for each uni slot. I would say it is more A tier than C tier really. Rules are taken from the Marine Worlds glossary.
I think A is too far, I can see arguments for B tier. The main benefits are the safety net it gives you (guaranteed partner zoo you want) and stacking a single continent for a project. Stacking a single continent for the money discounts is fun, and could absolutely pay off if you got enough of the same continent, but realistically the 3 money you save from the extra Asia discount you lose when you play an Americas animal. If your hand is all Asia then yes it is very beneficial. Being able to grab the same uni feels redundant because there are already 3 "good" unis. I'd be happy enough getting hand size, 2 rep and an animal uni. Maybe you want two different animals for two different base projects, but chances are one of them is gone by the time you've upgraded Assoc and want to get both.
i played with the snapping cards card and It was awesome ( i don't think the people I was playing with were especially good though, so that probably helped)
Since i believe the BGA implementation should be as much loyal to the original board game as possible I see no reason why hunt animal shouldn’t force you to show your hand. It is specifically written in the rules that you have to in irl games. That’s the trade-off for the free animal hunt. You don’t have to use the hunting even if you could, but if you choose to you have to show your hand
That's fair! Will be interesting to revisit this video in a year from now when the meta on BGA is more established (expecting Marine Worlds late this year)
The hunting animal card has some really unique use-cases that wasn't discussed, specifically with it's interaction with sunbathing. I think the interaction with sunbathing alone makes this card at least better than D-tier. Marking animals is very meh. Sometimes (rarely) the display has no animals so it's useless. At best it's getting you an eagle or sunbear but most of the time it's 2 money. We've already rated 2 money as a B-tier card but this is somehow A tier? This is B or C tier, like the 2 money animal, infact the 2 money animal is better because of the upgrade. The extra kiosk build is useful if you're not upgrading build and you want some kiosks, it's really good in that situation. Also good if you do upgrade it you can put a size 4, a pavilion, and a kiosk. I think this build card gets a lot of hate but it isn't that bad, it's only bad if you're building a ton of kiosks for some reason. Being able to build a size 5 and a kiosk or a size 3 and a size 2 and a kiosk or a size 3 and a size 1 and a pavilion and a kiosk or not needing to upgrade build to have some semi-efficient build actions with a little income added is nice. The digging cards action is the most busted card in the game, it's actually unbelievably dumb. The whole reason snapping is so good as a conservation bonus is to control the display. The digging let's you control the display without having to take snapping and it let's you do that no matter where your card's action is at. At the very very very worst, this card can let you get rid of a bad card in your hand for a random card, which makes your card action better. This action card is actually so dumb and un-fun to play against. Any relatively decent opponent can abuse this card to the point where, as BDW said, you don't really get to play the game. Not fun. The snapping cards action, IMO, is B or even A-tier. How many times do you want to snap a card rd1 and you see your opponent has the ability to snap before you and you're going to miss the snap. This is really nice to give you some added strength round 1 and 2. Very similar to the animals action that lets you ignore a condition, not useful late game (usually) but extremely useful early game. The sponsors giving you cash is also broken. I think between this and the digging cards action, it's not really fun to play against these. If your opponent gets either this or the digging cards action it actually isn't fun to play against and the game is heavily tilted against you, from the start.
You can't hunt, then sunbathe/pouch with your animal with Hunter Animals. Hunt is last. Maybe you can combo it with one of the Sponsors that uses cards, but that's kinda clunky. But yes, Digging Cards and Money Sponsors were the two big no-nos for me. Someone dug my Explorer away one time and it made me become evil Associationman.
@@bdwssbb4169 That isn't what I meant, I meant you could sell all of your animal cards and then get a free draw. I, also, think the hunt is useful in a lot of ways, that doesn't necessarily reveal your "plan." Yes, in a perfect storm it could be bad/reveal your plan but in reality, most of the time, it isn't going to show much more than, oh, you have sponsor X in your hand...
@@timmaddams1093 I know that, I'm just saying I don't think it's as bad as the other "upgraded" cards in that tier. For example, I think putting your worker on 5 to get an extra worker is actually, not trolling, legitimately worse than un-upgraded association. It's actively bad. Hunting animals can be good in certain scenarios, like sunbathing your hand (or just animals) or (to a lesser extent, IMO) pouching.
Have we been playing Animals 4 wrong? Does the upgraded side also let you mark animals? Oh, and we have definitely been playing Association 2 wrong. It's been S-tier in our games.
It has the little mark symbol under the upgraded Animals action still! Association 2 I could see being reasonable if you got the worker to use instantly. I'm guessing a lot of people make that mistake
@@NoWondersTV the mistake we made on Association 2 was that you didn't need a worker to take the action. So you'd do it as your second assoc before the first break, not get it immediately, but would have two workers available for the next round.
Hi, I'm currently putting together a really ambitious strategy guide with JDan. Would you mind if I include some prt scr from a few of your videos? Naturally, I'll give you credit and refer to your channel and videos. Great channel you have btw!
Disagree on the water/rock build. On some maps be sure but most it's just okay I think. The pavilion build card however is absolute S if you ask me, only the sponsor extra money card seems better to me. It just let's you snake to placement bonuses too easily plus earns back with kiosks. Later on it's just cheap extra points. The card draw digging card is solid but not S imo. The situations where you really want to hate something you don't want yourself are not that super common I think and other times you're already playing cards so you could just draft it yourself. It's very useful sure, but I think some of the build or animal ones are better. I think the animal cards as a whole are better than rated here. The thing is animals is just something you play a lot and upgrade a lot. Even just the save 2 money each time feels pretty good compared to a lot of the other stuff which is so situational. Finally I don't see why the association card that lets you get another worker is so bad. Heavily dependent on where assoc is first time but a long first round to Assoc 5 for another worker then something else. And then 2 workers good to go round 2. Then later with it upgraded you can just use spare workers as X tokens, seems pretty good. It just relies heavily on the map (4th worker points or not) and starting position association. If you could draft it after knowing card order it would be quite strong situationally I think.
Imo card digging is 100% S-tier, and it's not because of being able to sabotage opponents. The key is that the display replenishes after each dig. This means that once you have cards upgraded you only need 9rep to effectively have access to the whole display. Even without cards upgraded it allows you to see 2 extra cards before deciding if you want to snap or draw from deck. Also I might be misunderstandning what you're saying but the assoc card does not immediately give you the worker to use. You spend your worker on power 5, and then the new worker that you just gained is placed alongside the worker on power 5. So if you do this round 1, you will basically not have associated (taken partner zoo or uni) round 1, and you probably want the round to be short not long (to be able to use your workers asap). Yes you have 2 workers next round, but it's just too slow. And your opponent may very well break before you use the 2nd.
@@itzal1ce822 the worker is at least decent and you nearly never use your dig and then decide to draw from the top, cause the dig would be useful for the random cards you are drawing, too. The 2 money animals card got definitly underrated, I cant see that it's worse than the -1 requirement card. The -1 requirement is highly situational and lets you play less animals, which is a big deal. These upgraded action cards are mostly good, if you can use them no matter what. And the extra worker card does exactly that.
I have to disagree about the Association 2 card blue side. Coming from a meta where the reward chosen for your 1st Conservation Project is almost universally Worker#2, having this allows you to get Worker #2 before the first break instead of a university or Partner Zoo and then 1st CP Reward can be something recurring, and Association can be chosen twice before break 2. Solid B card.
problem is it basically means that you don't associate in the 1st round, it's too slow. Also I'd say that the meta is to not take worker as a bonus unless it's the first action of the new round
@@itzal1ce822Too slow? I've done it on the very first turn of the game. Then drop a cage, play 1 animal, and try to force a break on turn 4/5. Its not that you don't associate, you do. You just dont get one of the standard universities or partners. If you are going 3rd or fourth, many times the one you want is gone anyway, so this is better than taking a substandard choice.
@@admscotty704 It does feel very slow. Round 1 it makes no difference, as you say, first uni or partner zoo give few tangible benefits anyway. Round 2 is where the problems begin. Because you have 2 workers you want a longer round (to Associate twice) but you have no upgrades because you're not getting your 2nd uni or partner zoo. Double uni player will have upgraded Build for more income and upgraded Animals to get close to their 8 rep worker anyway. The meta at top level play has largely moved away from taking a worker as first reward. I agree workers are important, but there are enough other ways to get them that I feel Assoc2 doesn't offer much. I think the tempo hit for round 2 is even a negative that is not compensated for with an extra worker.
![Digital Circus Episode 4 [TRAILER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/abZtsmMUbJo/mqdefault.jpg)
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Andrew doesn't stream or make videos - but he does enjoy making custom Ark Nova maps!
Check out his work on BGG!
boardgamegeek.com/thread/3219625/fan-maps-oversize-and-terrain-madness
boardgamegeek.com/thread/3228443/fan-maps-species-pairs-and-proxy-building
Very useful video, thanks a lot to both of you ;)
Some afterthoughts:
- I could be underrating Repeat Assoc. Since there is a relatively good chance there's a 5/2 or 5/4 continent test, the repeats can help. It's great for going hard on a continent, but you're gonna be hoping you find all animals of that continent, more ideally one of the test continents. What I don't like is you are more pressured to go partners early (especially in higher player counts where they could be eaten up) and getting into situations where you wanted 2 different anyway and may not want to upgrade assoc (1 for an easy project and another for some animal you really want).
- Probably hating on Snap Cards a bit much too. Yeah, it's nice to get those early snaps when the row is juicy, but then I'd rather have digging cards to spite (though that's an unfair comparison). Would rather take my chances with No Discard Cards to find a synergy with sunbathing/pouching/whatever.
- Still don't like Kiosk Build even if you don't plan to upgrade Build (which is unlikely since you have no hand to influence your decisions). Only marginally better than pavilion build in some reasonably good scenarios for it.
- The more I think about Hunter Animals, the more I hate it. A side effect of how it works if if you draw too many animals that you can't play/don't want to, your own hand is killing the augment.
- When I said Money Sponsors was the king of stall, I half-lied (but it's ultimately true). Self-Clever Assoc can stall indefinitely. I don't know if this was the intention, but happily, I haven't been in a break-chicken scenario with that Assoc involved. Then again, I play Marine Worlds with 3+ players, so break chicken isn't as much of a thing.
bdw forgetting the sea turtle tank hunting synergy, smh
also, self clever assoc is probably a bad stalling methodology even if infinite because then you have to spend all your X tokens on doing the project if the break is caused right after
there's better updraged cards specifically for stalling then sponsors 2, by a lot.
sponsors 1 is just better, it gets rid of an x which in that specific scenario you can have "too" many, and gives more money.
if your enemy does it well, you'll not repeatedly break 1 in stalling-scenarios anyway, forcing the enemy to break for a precise amount is maybe a bit annoying for him but defeats that usage completely, so they both only work repeatedly if you have sponsor cards to play, and there sponsor 1 is also more flexible
self-clever assoc is in theory infinite but if enemy breaks directly after, usually you'll instantly want to assoc and bye-bye all those nice x'
upgraded rock/water build however is infinite as well, as long as you left 2 money you can repeatedly just build a single pavillon on rock/water. the limit of rock/water places available should be enough for most cases i reckon, and no other drawback so that is the "king of stalling" in my book (as if it needed that, being broken already)
Oh I didn’t know BDW was the WSBG champion…Gratz 😊👍
WSBG Ark Nova champ and 2nd place overall!
I'm sure someone did a good analysis video of him winning
The repeat partner zoo also offers multiples on the 3 money discount (If you have multiple partner zoos of the same continent, EACH of them reduces the cost of each animal you play from that continent). Taking 12 dollars off an elephant is massive.
Additionally the second side allows you to take multiples of the new universities (You can also take any new university that is still avalaible. Take it from beside the Association board and leave the generic university where it is). So if you upgrade association early, you can potentially snatch 2 symbols at once (1 from the uni, 1 from searching for the card with that animal symbol) for each uni slot.
I would say it is more A tier than C tier really.
Rules are taken from the Marine Worlds glossary.
I think A is too far, I can see arguments for B tier. The main benefits are the safety net it gives you (guaranteed partner zoo you want) and stacking a single continent for a project. Stacking a single continent for the money discounts is fun, and could absolutely pay off if you got enough of the same continent, but realistically the 3 money you save from the extra Asia discount you lose when you play an Americas animal. If your hand is all Asia then yes it is very beneficial.
Being able to grab the same uni feels redundant because there are already 3 "good" unis. I'd be happy enough getting hand size, 2 rep and an animal uni. Maybe you want two different animals for two different base projects, but chances are one of them is gone by the time you've upgraded Assoc and want to get both.
i played with the snapping cards card and It was awesome ( i don't think the people I was playing with were especially good though, so that probably helped)
Since i believe the BGA implementation should be as much loyal to the original board game as possible I see no reason why hunt animal shouldn’t force you to show your hand. It is specifically written in the rules that you have to in irl games. That’s the trade-off for the free animal hunt. You don’t have to use the hunting even if you could, but if you choose to you have to show your hand
That's fair! Will be interesting to revisit this video in a year from now when the meta on BGA is more established (expecting Marine Worlds late this year)
The hunting animal card has some really unique use-cases that wasn't discussed, specifically with it's interaction with sunbathing. I think the interaction with sunbathing alone makes this card at least better than D-tier.
Marking animals is very meh. Sometimes (rarely) the display has no animals so it's useless. At best it's getting you an eagle or sunbear but most of the time it's 2 money. We've already rated 2 money as a B-tier card but this is somehow A tier? This is B or C tier, like the 2 money animal, infact the 2 money animal is better because of the upgrade.
The extra kiosk build is useful if you're not upgrading build and you want some kiosks, it's really good in that situation. Also good if you do upgrade it you can put a size 4, a pavilion, and a kiosk. I think this build card gets a lot of hate but it isn't that bad, it's only bad if you're building a ton of kiosks for some reason.
Being able to build a size 5 and a kiosk or a size 3 and a size 2 and a kiosk or a size 3 and a size 1 and a pavilion and a kiosk or not needing to upgrade build to have some semi-efficient build actions with a little income added is nice.
The digging cards action is the most busted card in the game, it's actually unbelievably dumb. The whole reason snapping is so good as a conservation bonus is to control the display. The digging let's you control the display without having to take snapping and it let's you do that no matter where your card's action is at. At the very very very worst, this card can let you get rid of a bad card in your hand for a random card, which makes your card action better. This action card is actually so dumb and un-fun to play against. Any relatively decent opponent can abuse this card to the point where, as BDW said, you don't really get to play the game. Not fun.
The snapping cards action, IMO, is B or even A-tier. How many times do you want to snap a card rd1 and you see your opponent has the ability to snap before you and you're going to miss the snap. This is really nice to give you some added strength round 1 and 2. Very similar to the animals action that lets you ignore a condition, not useful late game (usually) but extremely useful early game.
The sponsors giving you cash is also broken. I think between this and the digging cards action, it's not really fun to play against these. If your opponent gets either this or the digging cards action it actually isn't fun to play against and the game is heavily tilted against you, from the start.
You can't hunt, then sunbathe/pouch with your animal with Hunter Animals. Hunt is last. Maybe you can combo it with one of the Sponsors that uses cards, but that's kinda clunky.
But yes, Digging Cards and Money Sponsors were the two big no-nos for me. Someone dug my Explorer away one time and it made me become evil Associationman.
@@bdwssbb4169 That isn't what I meant, I meant you could sell all of your animal cards and then get a free draw.
I, also, think the hunt is useful in a lot of ways, that doesn't necessarily reveal your "plan." Yes, in a perfect storm it could be bad/reveal your plan but in reality, most of the time, it isn't going to show much more than, oh, you have sponsor X in your hand...
But if you have ANY good animals you want to play later it does nothing.
@@timmaddams1093 I know that, I'm just saying I don't think it's as bad as the other "upgraded" cards in that tier.
For example, I think putting your worker on 5 to get an extra worker is actually, not trolling, legitimately worse than un-upgraded association. It's actively bad. Hunting animals can be good in certain scenarios, like sunbathing your hand (or just animals) or (to a lesser extent, IMO) pouching.
Have we been playing Animals 4 wrong? Does the upgraded side also let you mark animals? Oh, and we have definitely been playing Association 2 wrong. It's been S-tier in our games.
It has the little mark symbol under the upgraded Animals action still! Association 2 I could see being reasonable if you got the worker to use instantly. I'm guessing a lot of people make that mistake
@@NoWondersTV the mistake we made on Association 2 was that you didn't need a worker to take the action. So you'd do it as your second assoc before the first break, not get it immediately, but would have two workers available for the next round.
Hi, I'm currently putting together a really ambitious strategy guide with JDan.
Would you mind if I include some prt scr from a few of your videos? Naturally, I'll give you credit and refer to your channel and videos. Great channel you have btw!
Yeah no problem. Good luck with your video!
@@NoWondersTV Cheers appreciate it :)
Disagree on the water/rock build. On some maps be sure but most it's just okay I think. The pavilion build card however is absolute S if you ask me, only the sponsor extra money card seems better to me. It just let's you snake to placement bonuses too easily plus earns back with kiosks. Later on it's just cheap extra points.
The card draw digging card is solid but not S imo. The situations where you really want to hate something you don't want yourself are not that super common I think and other times you're already playing cards so you could just draft it yourself. It's very useful sure, but I think some of the build or animal ones are better.
I think the animal cards as a whole are better than rated here. The thing is animals is just something you play a lot and upgrade a lot. Even just the save 2 money each time feels pretty good compared to a lot of the other stuff which is so situational.
Finally I don't see why the association card that lets you get another worker is so bad. Heavily dependent on where assoc is first time but a long first round to Assoc 5 for another worker then something else. And then 2 workers good to go round 2. Then later with it upgraded you can just use spare workers as X tokens, seems pretty good. It just relies heavily on the map (4th worker points or not) and starting position association. If you could draft it after knowing card order it would be quite strong situationally I think.
Imo card digging is 100% S-tier, and it's not because of being able to sabotage opponents. The key is that the display replenishes after each dig. This means that once you have cards upgraded you only need 9rep to effectively have access to the whole display. Even without cards upgraded it allows you to see 2 extra cards before deciding if you want to snap or draw from deck.
Also I might be misunderstandning what you're saying but the assoc card does not immediately give you the worker to use. You spend your worker on power 5, and then the new worker that you just gained is placed alongside the worker on power 5. So if you do this round 1, you will basically not have associated (taken partner zoo or uni) round 1, and you probably want the round to be short not long (to be able to use your workers asap). Yes you have 2 workers next round, but it's just too slow. And your opponent may very well break before you use the 2nd.
@@itzal1ce822 ah missed that.
Then the card is quite trash yes.
@@itzal1ce822 the worker is at least decent and you nearly never use your dig and then decide to draw from the top, cause the dig would be useful for the random cards you are drawing, too. The 2 money animals card got definitly underrated, I cant see that it's worse than the -1 requirement card. The -1 requirement is highly situational and lets you play less animals, which is a big deal. These upgraded action cards are mostly good, if you can use them no matter what. And the extra worker card does exactly that.
I have to disagree about the Association 2 card blue side. Coming from a meta where the reward chosen for your 1st Conservation Project is almost universally Worker#2, having this allows you to get Worker #2 before the first break instead of a university or Partner Zoo and then 1st CP Reward can be something recurring, and Association can be chosen twice before break 2. Solid B card.
problem is it basically means that you don't associate in the 1st round, it's too slow. Also I'd say that the meta is to not take worker as a bonus unless it's the first action of the new round
@@itzal1ce822Too slow? I've done it on the very first turn of the game. Then drop a cage, play 1 animal, and try to force a break on turn 4/5. Its not that you don't associate, you do. You just dont get one of the standard universities or partners. If you are going 3rd or fourth, many times the one you want is gone anyway, so this is better than taking a substandard choice.
@@admscotty704 It does feel very slow. Round 1 it makes no difference, as you say, first uni or partner zoo give few tangible benefits anyway. Round 2 is where the problems begin. Because you have 2 workers you want a longer round (to Associate twice) but you have no upgrades because you're not getting your 2nd uni or partner zoo. Double uni player will have upgraded Build for more income and upgraded Animals to get close to their 8 rep worker anyway.
The meta at top level play has largely moved away from taking a worker as first reward. I agree workers are important, but there are enough other ways to get them that I feel Assoc2 doesn't offer much. I think the tempo hit for round 2 is even a negative that is not compensated for with an extra worker.