Great video. People expecting to get entertained with dancing monkeys will be disappointed. People expecting real world truth will be extremely grateful. You gave us the REAL WORLD information. Not some research data of potential results. You and your son have lived this. I like your last two recommendations for the Livewire website. I think "Way more efficient then a Tesla" is a heck of a tagline. When I watched your going to work video and you got on the interstate and just held the throttle at 'seeya' for a half an hour ,I could not help but laugh. Harley really has brought electric motorcycles into the real world. Thanks again for the data. It would be nice if the feds reinstated that tax break but that would mean helping the little guy. Not holding my breath on that one.
Yeah the real world data was great! I made a similar video on my channel comparing fueling costs specifically of my previous 2017 WRX that I had for 4 years to the Model 3 that I had for 1 year and the LiveWire that I've had for 5 months. Fueling the LiveWire is way cheaper than I ever thought.
I paid $492.00 for a pair of Michelin Road Pilot VI GT tires last July Sport Bike Track Gear Free shipping .. The GT tires cost more than the Road Pilot VI tires do.
Jack you got the screen recording down, awesome! I'm going to be doing a a video on my channel about the startup costs to motorcycling in a similar way showing really world costs. Before March I never even sat on a motorcycle, now I'm fully licensed and on my own with the LiveWire (yes I got a used HD LiveWire as my first motorcycle). It's not my only vehicle. I do own a Model 3 so I am still fully electric and enjoying it.
Congrats on your new LiveWire. Be really careful. The first year of riding is the most dangerous. Please post the link to your video to my comments when you get it done. I’ve noticed that LiveWire is attracting new riders to the sport. We have to do everything we can to make sure nobody gets hurt.
@@freedomiseverything Thank you! It has really been fun and I am also definitely aware of the dangers of riding. I've been also following and learning from Dan the Fireman on RUclips. He has great training courses too.
@@freedomiseverything I do have the fueling cost comparison between my WRX, Model 3 and LiveWire up if you want to check it out. I'll post the motorcycling startup cost video link once I publish that. ruclips.net/video/v2OFpYPF2t4/видео.html
Very well put together. Regardless whether you save money or not, it is an absolute blast to ride. Compare Tesla, sitting hours in traffic and LiveWire lane filter the time savings would be huge.
There is no buyers remorse for LiveWire ONE purchasers. Not the same for other electrics. I saw a guy bring in a New Zero SR/F into the LiveWire Malibu Experience and trade up to a LiveWire ONE. Make sure you ride the LiveWire before you buy anything else. There is really no comparison. Plus the LiveWire ONE cost less than the SR/F.
Fantastic analysis. I own an EV and have felt the tangible long term cost of ownership advantages. I guess the only other factor is the subjective "fun" of the experience and future depreciation. We might be entering an era where high-end limited production ICE bikes may begin to appreciate within the next decade or two. But most mass production ICE bikes will likely continue to depreciate as usual. I suspect as LiveWire gets some competition the One and Del Mar S2 will depreciate at or even more than standard ICE bike rates, so that is a major concern for those that own an electric bike for around 3-6 years.
I think our bikes are targeted at people that know. You have to have been a motorcyclist. You have to care about the environment. You have to be down with supporting HD/Livewire. I think the real issue is that the win is far lower down the price performance curve. If you watch fortnines video about electric bikes and the video about HDs struggles I think you get the correct picture. While It don't always love @fortnine's jokes (I do like many of them) I think their analysis of the industry is spot on. Add in the video about Altra and I think you get a really clear picture. They did test the Zero 7.2. I think Livewire should go out of their way to get them a del mar or a even an LW1.
I agree with you completely. Here is what Yammie Noob said four days ago: ruclips.net/video/ditmLcC35KU/видео.html He's right about the Zero. The LiveWire is the only electric bike that really works. DC Fast charging is imperative. Without it, the bike is just a toy, not really usable for most people. LiveWire is going to ship the Del Mar with Level 2 only. The bike will be as useful as the Zero.
The commute from San Jose to Santa Cruz is 32.8 miles each way on CA-17. It works great on the SR if you can charge while at work. However, Berkeley to Santa Cruz is 75.5 miles each way. An easy commute on the LiveWire. An impossible commute on the SR.
Great info but I'm concerned about the rates you are quoting for Tire and oil changes. Am I correct in understanding that your dealerships are charging you upwards of $400 to change tires and then $330 or so for oil changes? These prices are insane. Not being a troll but I get tires changed at cycle gear for $30-40 a wheel? I'd love to get a livelier but I'm seriously concerned about the service cost. I guess I could do the changes myself or at cycle gear for the tires and save a significant sum which would tilt things even more in the Livewires favor. Have you had any reliability issues with the bike thus far?
The $400 price at Harley-Davidson of San Jose was a tire change, balance and mount and dismount for 2 tires. The $30 price at Cycle Gear is to change one tire and you have to bring the wheel into their store to get it done. I agree that $400 is high. However, they were using Snap-On tools and did a perfect job. Most motorcycle dealerships that I've been to over the years do not know how to change the oil or how to change tires. Next time you get your oil changed, ask the mechanic what the torque spec is for the drain-plug. The $330 price that LiveWire charges for an oil change actually includes a lot more stuff. They go through the whole bike from stem to stern. They also load the latest software updates. My son an I both have LiveWire ONEs. His is pushing 20k miles. Mine is a shade over 5k miles. He had a display replaced under warrantee. Other than that, both bikes have been flawless.
@@freedomiseverything Thanks for the reply. I'm enjoying your vlogs. I've committed myself to buying electric thanks to your insights. Have you tried the Energica brand of electric motorcycles? They seem to be on par with the Livewire in price yet may have more battery capacity and appear to charge a bit faster.
I didn't put the DMV registration cost in. In California it's significant. In some other states, not so much. While you're here, I want to thank you for all the encouragement you give to the LiveWire community. You've made a difference for me. Thanks!
Thanks for sharing this. What about the cost of the scheduled maintenance on the Livewire? I’m thinking the 1K, 5K, and 10K services. Or did you do them yourselves?
A video I saw a while back gave the service interval as this. First service at 1000k, second at 10k the every 10k after that. It did highlight a design flaw though, he had to remove the 12v battery AND it's holder to carry out the oil change. 1k Service on a 2020 Harley-Davidson Livewire ruclips.net/video/rvUKOx_5J_o/видео.html
@@andrewmorgan6775 my Livewire One owners manual shows first scheduled service at 1K miles, second one at 5K miles, and every 5K thereafter. He doesn't mention the costs of these in the video. Each dealer charges differently for them too.
There is a 1,000 gearbox oil change at 1,000 miles. Then every 20,000 miles after that. You’ll need tires every 10,000 miles and they recommend a fork rebuild every 50,000 miles. Everything else is just inspections you can do yourself. BTW, break wear is very minimal because you rarely need to use them. I got a call last week from Louie in service at Canoga Park LiveWire. He said he was sure I had more than 1,000 miles on my new LiveWire and said he’d like me to bring it in for the gearbox oil change the next day. When I got there, he gave my wife and I a loaner LiveWire to ride around for three hours while he got the bike done. I’ve been riding a long time and I have never gotten service like that. The only downside is that he wouldn’t let me do a video of him working on the bike!..,
@@freedomiseverything the manual also says to lubricate the Jiffy stand (???) every 5K miles, as well as the brake controls. Some of the maintenance items are noted as needing to be performed by an authorized Livewire dealer (unless you have the proper tools). I would suggest that your presentation have the disclaimer that regardless of which bike it is, your assumed cost of ownership assumes no regular maint costs being spent at the dealer and that owner is performing all regular maintenance themselves. I'd presume a small minority of riders fit into that category.
good comparison but I would had range anxiety. with the electric bike over the gas powered one.also not that many charging stations in my area so yeah ! my question what is the real world range of the 2 bikes?
The MT 10 goes about 120 miles before the fuel light comes on. It’s got a flash and a pipe. That hurt the fuel economy. my average on the LiveWire is about 105 miles. My wife is lighter and smaller and she goes about 120 miles on the bike. There really isn’t any range anxiety with a LiveWire. There are DC fast chargers everywhere. I can ride the bike pretty much anywhere in the country and not have a problem. I’m showing that you live in Santa Ana. There are DC fast chargers everywhere there
A few other things in the favour of the Livewire ... belt drive (clean and doesn't require adjusting between tire changes), no valve clearance adjustments, no engine oil & filter costs (and labour if you're not a DIY person), and as most fuel powered bike owners seem to change the original exhaust for something more expensive (sure, it's lighter, sounds good and looks better), there's a big cost saving there (and prevents the waste of having an unused OEM exhaust system hanging up in the garage). And one other thing in the favour of the Livewire ... it's quiet, so you can come home late at night on the bike and ride it all the way into your garage and not wake up anyone in the house.
The maintenance cost is definitely lower. I had no idea until I bought one, but the LiveWire still has "motor" oil. At the 1k service, it required an oil change. There's no filter though. The oil really acts just like gear lube for the gear components of the motor. I've had my HD LiveWire since March and I really love it.
Your obsolutely right. Plus, the MT10 is low maintenance compared to other gas bikes. The valve adjustment on the Ducati Streetfighter is $1,800+ every 18,000 miles. Preston’s MT10 has an Austin Racing pipe, a Graves flash and a Flash Tune blipper. Right now, it needs a new chain and sprockets.
And the thing against the Live Wire it's a ripoff 22,000 LOL sounds like a scam to me for a slow motorcycle if they're so into saving the environment why it is so rip off price wise
@@richardcerritelli9657 usually first gen of anything is very high priced to compensate for r&d. It’s definitely a rip off if you’re going solely by price to performance. It is definitely NOT slow whatsoever. The acceleration on it is crazy. If you haven’t ridden one yet I’d say give it a try. It’s quicker than my friends cbr 600 and triumph bonneville. They both rode it.
What about depreciation ? 10k per year is unusual here in the UK, most bikes that are for sale after 10 or 20 years barely have 10k on them lol. I'm thinking more about the value of the bike as it ages rather than running costs, insurance here in UK is £400 for me and will be the biggest cost after depreciation if I dont do many miles. I am wondering if this bike has the potential to be a future classic.
Looking back, I think the LiveWire ONE will go down as the most important bike in 100 years. That being said, it's pretty hard to make money on classic motorcycles. In 1975, I owned a 1973 Z1 tomato tank frame serial number 2,105 and engine number 2,151. I paid $1,850 CDN for it. Fifty years later, it's worth $20,000 USD. Not a good investment. However, selling it (40 years ago) is one of my greatest regrets!
@@freedomiseverything I'm not looking to make money on bikes ( houses and sticks are for that ) but rather just thinking that bikes are such a poor investment generally but this might be a way of minimising the loss by getting ebike that's so iconic it will be worth more than all the other electric bikes later on so having it sitting in the garage and taking it out now and then for some fun wouldn't be costing as much maybe .. Other option is just go really cheap but then I wouldn't get the same feeling but also wouldn't be worried about damaging it..
HD Robbed you for Labor to change two tires.. I can get close to 58 MPG on my Yamaha FZ-07 .. I paid $4.14 cents for oil filters. and oil change is 2.5 quarts .. I paid $19.00 for 5 quarts of 10w-40 Castrol .. thus an oil change costs me $15.00. I do have to oil the chain daily .. I bought a half case of chain lube 20 years ago and have used half of it .
I agree with squaaak on this. I actually own the livewire an mt-07 and r3. The livewire is my husband’s but from our area on the east coast there’s a few major difference’s. Charge points are not as ubiquitous around here and are very sporadic most chatting is done at home where a kilowatt hour is $.26 per also gas around here at premium is currently sub $4 it’s $3.97 also my r3 gets more range than my husband’s livewire by a significant amount and I don’t know why you’re insurance is so astronomical the insurance on my commuter the r3 is $9.07 a month so when you said $24 I’m unsure if that’s monthly or full cost and I suspect if it’s full cost if you actually get into an accident they’ll deny the claim due to misinformation because I doubt they realize what they’re insuring.
I feel I should give some numbers on this. Since my r3 is my go to that’s what I’m going to use, my r3 gets roughly 178 miles to a tank the tank is 2.5 gallons and costs me $8.09 to fill from when it starts pulling from the reserve (the .5 gallons). The livewire on our home network costs around $6.24 to charge to full also insurance is $56 monthly both bikes use tires so those costs would basically be the same, the only really change is servicing and maintenance. Obviously cleaning your chain takes like 15 minutes and if you do it yourself should be the cost of the cleaning products every few seasons, however my r3 needs oil changes which my husband does and that still costs us less than $50 a change. So in all actuality assuming you don’t get a premium liter bike and assuming both are paid off (both are) insurance is cheaper on the ice bike charging costs less but takes more time on the livewire. And as an owner of the livewire and an MT07 lol the fact that you claim a livewire is more premium is absolutely absurd just because it costs more doesn’t make it better hun. Oh yeah my r3 was bought preowned and cost $3,700 with no issue’s. The livewire since we still have all the paperwork after all fee’s cost $24,972.68 so do the math and tell me which is cheaper because I’ve already done the calculations and both bikes will be well into their lifespans by the time they break even.
I agree that an R3 or MT07 have a cheaper cost of ownership than LiveWire. The insurance quote was $24 per month for the LiveWire from State Farm. They know what they are insuring and they will pay my claims and represent me in court if there is a problem. I suggest you stay off of your husband's LiveWire. I let my wife ride mine and it's probably going to cost me another $25K: ruclips.net/video/gBz1i9FJ_c4/видео.html
How do people get such low insurance rates? I went to my local insurance agency to get my 2020 rebel 500 insured and was to pay $300 for a year. I was told that was the lowest rate available. My bike was fully paid off at the time. Is there a trick to it or something? Also, my car insurance alone is $100 a month. What am I doing wrong?
@@Wolfik1994maus depends on the type of insurance and state, in my state I’m able to have collision and accident coverage without having full coverage. Simultaneously I bought my commuter bike used with 12k miles on it for $2,700 which isn’t a huge deal it’s about 2 months of savings so if anything happens to it I can either, change coverage to fill and play it off or simply replace it.
You are certainly paying less for home 120V charging than I am. I live just south of San Francisco and most appliances in my home are powered with natural gas, so I am on the lowest electric rate tier. I received my monthly PG&E bill for July two weeks ago and I am paying 42.558 cents per kWh for "off peak" power and 48.902 cents per kWh for "peak" electrical power. (I always recharge my Zero during the "off peak" early morning time.) Right now my electric power charges are going up fast almost every month while gasoline prices have dropped a bit down to $5.40 a gallon. I might add that a year ago I was paying 25 cents per kWh before PG&E installed a "smart meter" and implemented the "peak" and "off peak" fee scheme.
Here is a rate calculator that show what you will pay for electricity anywhere in the USA: www.saveonenergy.com/electricity-rates/#:~:text=The%20average%20residential%20electricity%20rate,kilowatt%2Dhour%20(kWh).&text=The%20average%20electric%20price%20a,is%2012.14%20cents%20per%20kWh. The national average is 13.72 cents per kWh. In my case at home, I have a discounted rate (EV2-1) because I have an electric car. During his freshman year, Preston lived in a dorm and didn’t have acces to a plug. He fast charged at the Whole Foods grocery store while he was eating a sandwich in the deli @ 45 cents per kWh. Over the summer, he lived at a frat house and they let him change level 1 for free. His internship is 75 miles away and has free on-site DC fast charging. In two weeks, Preston is moving into a studio apartment a block from campus. Utilities are included in the rent and the landlord is cool with Preston running an extension cord out the window to charge his bike. The reality is that Preston is almost always charging for free. This month, the average price for premium gas in California was $6.29: gasprices.aaa.com/?state=CA
That Livewire insurance isn’t correct though. If you have a loan they want full coverage, and that’s based on bike value. 2x the price would mean higher insurance. My Tiger 900 costs me about $0.14 per mile over same range. Co2 of course is not the same.
Gotta admit that this is an analysis of a corner case rider, since you’re way out on the bell curve for yearly mileage. Average mileage in the US is about 2000 miles/yr, so the cost for most people is dominated by acquisition cost and not running costs, which puts the IC bike at roughly half the cost for most buyers. The current MT-10 also has a 6 axis IMU so that advantage disappears. So the question for most people becomes whether the electric “experience” is worth a 1.5-2.0X premium. I think it might be, but that’s a tough sell especially for people who might not be open minded to a new way of riding.
@@freedomiseverything a lot of people who ride a lot of miles do so on longer trips, which are challenging especially outside if California’s charge network. You’ve got to admit that you’re kind of a unicorn for EV ridership.
I paid $7,400.00 for a new 2016 FZ-07 in 2017.. So I have what $10,000.00 to spend on Gasoline before .. I have the cost of a Livewire .. or did you pay $29,000.00 for .. May as well add your Tax rebate in there..
Since Combustible Engines are Being fased out by 2035, & the Del Mar is Coming.We might as well all make that Transition to EV..though that Honda Rebel 1100 DCT sounds appealing & I will Recieve my Sondors Metacycle,prolly near Christmas
I agree. He is new to Northern California and hasn't been there long enough to establish a good relationship with a mechanic. In Southern California, we are getting excellent pricing and service from Louis at LiveWire in Canoga Park. Usually, on the gas bikes, I just do it myself. I take the wheels off and have Cycle Gear mount and balance the new tires on the rims. However, the LiveWire has a belt configuration and I don't know the proper way to tension it. I also don't have the proper lifts and stands for the LiveWire and I don't want to scratch it. I'm not in a rush to learn how to do it myself because LiveWire takes service appointments and they give me a loaner bike while they are working on mine.
@@freedomiseverything Best if your son learns to do his own wrenching. Makes motorcycling way more satisfying when you've fixed things yourself. Otherwise you have to do a whole lot of work at your job to cover the cost of stealership's outrageous bills.
Currently the bike cost $29,000 against a $16,000 bike, at your saving estimate of approximate $2000 every 11,000 miles. It will take 77,000 miles or in your case, 14 years before you break even. That's not counting the cost of replacing the battery, possibly twice, at $2,000 each during that period. Nor have you considered the environment impact in recycling the defective batteries. The bike will go 120 miles on the average, not exceeding 70 mph, with not wind on flat ground, between recharges and if you exceed that mileage every time you take the bike for a ride you spend 91 hours waiting for a recharge. Perhaps you should discuss what style and type of riding the bike fits.
The LiveWire ONE cost $23K not $29K. There is no indication that the battery needs to be replaced at 30,000 miles. Plus, the maintenance cost is substantially lower than an MT10. Here is a video I did with more complete information about cost of ownership: ruclips.net/video/tDnf_4h78kM/видео.html It's not a matter of type or style of riding. If you do lots of riding, go electric. If you don't ride much, get a gas bike. Here is some information about battery recycling you may be interested in: blog.ucsusa.org/jessica-dunn/californias-progress-toward-recycling-policy-for-ev-batteries/#:~:text=Yes%2C%20EV%20battery%20recycling%20is,the%20manufacturing%20of%20new%20batteries.
Lots of misleading information here. The mt 10 is a far better bike in most ways, (weight, handling, range, purchase price, power delivery, etc.) , oil changes with motul full synthetic are more like $75, tire mounting and balancing is about $50 per tire, etc etc. I have no idea where you went to get these services done, but if you paid what you said you did, you were ripped off big time. Not that I don't like the live wire, I do. It's just that contrary to this video, it is far more expensive to buy and own with much less bang for the buck if you want to ride mountain roads and things.
Motul 300V 4T 5W40 is $96.25 at Revzilla. The oil filter is $17.99 at Revzilla. The air filter is $28.61 at Partszilla. The cheapest place is my area to get work done on Japanese bikes is Mountain Motorsports in Ontario, California. Their labor charge for an oil change is $60. Their labor charge to mount front and rear tire is $175. Their labor charge to change the air filter is $90. Their labor charge for a valve adjustment is $550. So in the cheapest case, I could have got the oil change done for $174.24 if I had brought my own oil and filter to the dealer, instead of the $230.00 I usually pay to get it done at Mach 1 Motorsports in Costa Mesa, California. The difference is that Mountain Motorsports can't do it while I wait and won't take appointments. Also, I trust the mechanics at Mach 1 not to over-torque my oil drain plug. The reality is that I'm not overpaying for service and the service costs on the MT10 are vastly understated in my video. This video has gotten lots of views. I'm going to update it with the cost to run my Street Fighter and Z H2 as well. The MT10 is an inferior bike to the LiveWire in the canyons. It's not even close. The electronics package on the MT10 can't hold a candle to modern premium bikes with 6-axis IMUs. Plus, the LiveWire throttle response and torque are second to none below 100 MPH. The LiveWire Experience Center in Malibu, California will loan you a bike for a few hours to ride in the canyons for free. I suggest you bring your leathers, give it a try and find out for yourself. These guys are coming off an R6 and a Duke: ruclips.net/video/kj01Sfv1Uao/видео.html
My insurance cost is similar to Jack's cost. I use Allstate in NY and it cost me $296.40 for 12 months of insurance so about $25/mo. NY does insurance and registration/inspection in 12 months intervals.
My Yamaha FZ-07 runs fine on 87 Octane cost me $5 to $6 to fill up when Trump was President .. Now costs me like $12 to fill up during the Bejing Biden Administration ..
Sorry, but you're going to spend way more than $22K on a Super Duke: ruclips.net/video/tDnf_4h78kM/видео.html Do yourself a favor and test ride a LiveWire.
Авто/Мото
Great video.
People expecting to get entertained with dancing monkeys will be disappointed.
People expecting real world truth will be extremely grateful.
You gave us the REAL WORLD information.
Not some research data of potential results.
You and your son have lived this.
I like your last two recommendations for the Livewire website.
I think "Way more efficient then a Tesla" is a heck of a tagline.
When I watched your going to work video and you got on the interstate and just held the throttle at 'seeya' for a half an hour ,I could not help but laugh.
Harley really has brought electric motorcycles into the real world.
Thanks again for the data.
It would be nice if the feds reinstated that tax break but that would mean helping the little guy.
Not holding my breath on that one.
Yeah the real world data was great! I made a similar video on my channel comparing fueling costs specifically of my previous 2017 WRX that I had for 4 years to the Model 3 that I had for 1 year and the LiveWire that I've had for 5 months. Fueling the LiveWire is way cheaper than I ever thought.
You did it again, Jack!! Great information!!!
I love all the information in a very understandable format!
Great breakdown and analysis!
this was great Jack ... thank you Sir
I paid $492.00 for a pair of Michelin Road Pilot VI GT tires last July Sport Bike Track Gear Free shipping .. The GT tires cost more than the Road Pilot VI tires do.
Good analysis. I will start riding my livewire more
Agree totally with those final comments!
Cool! Nicely explained, Cheers from Milwaukee Wisconsin 🇺🇲🧀🍻.
I'm sure that in your line of work, you can appreciate my concern about safety. Cheers from Los Angeles, California.
This is the best ev to ice comparisons I had seen
Great video.. thx
Jack you got the screen recording down, awesome! I'm going to be doing a a video on my channel about the startup costs to motorcycling in a similar way showing really world costs. Before March I never even sat on a motorcycle, now I'm fully licensed and on my own with the LiveWire (yes I got a used HD LiveWire as my first motorcycle). It's not my only vehicle. I do own a Model 3 so I am still fully electric and enjoying it.
Congrats on your new LiveWire. Be really careful. The first year of riding is the most dangerous. Please post the link to your video to my comments when you get it done. I’ve noticed that LiveWire is attracting new riders to the sport. We have to do everything we can to make sure nobody gets hurt.
@@freedomiseverything Thank you! It has really been fun and I am also definitely aware of the dangers of riding. I've been also following and learning from Dan the Fireman on RUclips. He has great training courses too.
@@freedomiseverything I do have the fueling cost comparison between my WRX, Model 3 and LiveWire up if you want to check it out. I'll post the motorcycling startup cost video link once I publish that. ruclips.net/video/v2OFpYPF2t4/видео.html
Very well put together. Regardless whether you save money or not, it is an absolute blast to ride.
Compare Tesla, sitting hours in traffic and LiveWire lane filter the time savings would be huge.
ruclips.net/video/dOrHVCgpKc4/видео.html
Thank you Jack, I am very interested in making the move to Electric, your video has certainly helped confirm my decision.
There is no buyers remorse for LiveWire ONE purchasers. Not the same for other electrics. I saw a guy bring in a New Zero SR/F into the LiveWire Malibu Experience and trade up to a LiveWire ONE. Make sure you ride the LiveWire before you buy anything else. There is really no comparison. Plus the LiveWire ONE cost less than the SR/F.
@@freedomiseverything Thank you, I'll do that.
Very informative thank you but don t you miss the roar of an gaz engine when u ride ?
I would to see the same comparison with the Del-Mar D2, which is only 16K cost?
Fantastic analysis. I own an EV and have felt the tangible long term cost of ownership advantages. I guess the only other factor is the subjective "fun" of the experience and future depreciation. We might be entering an era where high-end limited production ICE bikes may begin to appreciate within the next decade or two. But most mass production ICE bikes will likely continue to depreciate as usual. I suspect as LiveWire gets some competition the One and Del Mar S2 will depreciate at or even more than standard ICE bike rates, so that is a major concern for those that own an electric bike for around 3-6 years.
I think our bikes are targeted at people that know. You have to have been a motorcyclist. You have to care about the environment. You have to be down with supporting HD/Livewire. I think the real issue is that the win is far lower down the price performance curve. If you watch fortnines video about electric bikes and the video about HDs struggles I think you get the correct picture. While It don't always love @fortnine's jokes (I do like many of them) I think their analysis of the industry is spot on. Add in the video about Altra and I think you get a really clear picture. They did test the Zero 7.2. I think Livewire should go out of their way to get them a del mar or a even an LW1.
I agree with you completely. Here is what Yammie Noob said four days ago:
ruclips.net/video/ditmLcC35KU/видео.html
He's right about the Zero. The LiveWire is the only electric bike that really works. DC Fast charging is imperative. Without it, the bike is just a toy, not really usable for most people. LiveWire is going to ship the Del Mar with Level 2 only. The bike will be as useful as the Zero.
5.51miles/kwh...my 2020 zeroSR ave. 10miles/kwh. This is fast mtn riding, my commute from SanJose to SantaCruz.
The commute from San Jose to Santa Cruz is 32.8 miles each way on CA-17. It works great on the SR if you can charge while at work. However, Berkeley to Santa Cruz is 75.5 miles each way. An easy commute on the LiveWire. An impossible commute on the SR.
Great info but I'm concerned about the rates you are quoting for Tire and oil changes. Am I correct in understanding that your dealerships are charging you upwards of $400 to change tires and then $330 or so for oil changes? These prices are insane. Not being a troll but I get tires changed at cycle gear for $30-40 a wheel? I'd love to get a livelier but I'm seriously concerned about the service cost. I guess I could do the changes myself or at cycle gear for the tires and save a significant sum which would tilt things even more in the Livewires favor. Have you had any reliability issues with the bike thus far?
The $400 price at Harley-Davidson of San Jose was a tire change, balance and mount and dismount for 2 tires. The $30 price at Cycle Gear is to change one tire and you have to bring the wheel into their store to get it done.
I agree that $400 is high. However, they were using Snap-On tools and did a perfect job. Most motorcycle dealerships that I've been to over the years do not know how to change the oil or how to change tires. Next time you get your oil changed, ask the mechanic what the torque spec is for the drain-plug.
The $330 price that LiveWire charges for an oil change actually includes a lot more stuff. They go through the whole bike from stem to stern. They also load the latest software updates.
My son an I both have LiveWire ONEs. His is pushing 20k miles. Mine is a shade over 5k miles. He had a display replaced under warrantee. Other than that, both bikes have been flawless.
@@freedomiseverything Thanks for the reply. I'm enjoying your vlogs. I've committed myself to buying electric thanks to your insights. Have you tried the Energica brand of electric motorcycles? They seem to be on par with the Livewire in price yet may have more battery capacity and appear to charge a bit faster.
Nice presentation! Did you not calculater initial DVM cost?
I didn't put the DMV registration cost in. In California it's significant. In some other states, not so much.
While you're here, I want to thank you for all the encouragement you give to the LiveWire community. You've made a difference for me. Thanks!
@@freedomiseverything It my pleasure and an hohor
Thanks for sharing this. What about the cost of the scheduled maintenance on the Livewire? I’m thinking the 1K, 5K, and 10K services. Or did you do them yourselves?
A video I saw a while back gave the service interval as this.
First service at 1000k, second at 10k the every 10k after that.
It did highlight a design flaw though, he had to remove the 12v battery AND it's holder to carry out the oil change.
1k Service on a 2020 Harley-Davidson Livewire
ruclips.net/video/rvUKOx_5J_o/видео.html
@@andrewmorgan6775 my Livewire One owners manual shows first scheduled service at 1K miles, second one at 5K miles, and every 5K thereafter. He doesn't mention the costs of these in the video. Each dealer charges differently for them too.
There is a 1,000 gearbox oil change at 1,000 miles. Then every 20,000 miles after that. You’ll need tires every 10,000 miles and they recommend a fork rebuild every 50,000 miles.
Everything else is just inspections you can do yourself. BTW, break wear is very minimal because you rarely need to use them.
I got a call last week from Louie in service at Canoga Park LiveWire. He said he was sure I had more than 1,000 miles on my new LiveWire and said he’d like me to bring it in for the gearbox oil change the next day. When I got there, he gave my wife and I a loaner LiveWire to ride around for three hours while he got the bike done. I’ve been riding a long time and I have never gotten service like that.
The only downside is that he wouldn’t let me do a video of him working on the bike!..,
@@freedomiseverything the manual also says to lubricate the Jiffy stand (???) every 5K miles, as well as the brake controls. Some of the maintenance items are noted as needing to be performed by an authorized Livewire dealer (unless you have the proper tools). I would suggest that your presentation have the disclaimer that regardless of which bike it is, your assumed cost of ownership assumes no regular maint costs being spent at the dealer and that owner is performing all regular maintenance themselves. I'd presume a small minority of riders fit into that category.
I just looked it up: jiffy stand is the name they gave to the sidestand.
Depreciation?
good comparison but I would had range anxiety. with the electric bike over the gas powered one.also not that many charging stations in my area so yeah ! my question what is the real world range of the 2 bikes?
The MT 10 goes about 120 miles before the fuel light comes on. It’s got a flash and a pipe. That hurt the fuel economy. my average on the LiveWire is about 105 miles. My wife is lighter and smaller and she goes about 120 miles on the bike. There really isn’t any range anxiety with a LiveWire. There are DC fast chargers everywhere. I can ride the bike pretty much anywhere in the country and not have a problem. I’m showing that you live in Santa Ana. There are DC fast chargers everywhere there
ruclips.net/video/qok1OB0rYA4/видео.html
A few other things in the favour of the Livewire ... belt drive (clean and doesn't require adjusting between tire changes), no valve clearance adjustments, no engine oil & filter costs (and labour if you're not a DIY person), and as most fuel powered bike owners seem to change the original exhaust for something more expensive (sure, it's lighter, sounds good and looks better), there's a big cost saving there (and prevents the waste of having an unused OEM exhaust system hanging up in the garage). And one other thing in the favour of the Livewire ... it's quiet, so you can come home late at night on the bike and ride it all the way into your garage and not wake up anyone in the house.
The maintenance cost is definitely lower. I had no idea until I bought one, but the LiveWire still has "motor" oil. At the 1k service, it required an oil change. There's no filter though. The oil really acts just like gear lube for the gear components of the motor. I've had my HD LiveWire since March and I really love it.
Your obsolutely right. Plus, the MT10 is low maintenance compared to other gas bikes. The valve adjustment on the Ducati Streetfighter is $1,800+ every 18,000 miles.
Preston’s MT10 has an Austin Racing pipe, a Graves flash and a Flash Tune blipper. Right now, it needs a new chain and sprockets.
@@freedomiseverything The good thing about the Livewire One is that there's no stage 1 (or 2, 3 or 4) upgrades, so your wallet is safe.
And the thing against the Live Wire it's a ripoff 22,000 LOL sounds like a scam to me for a slow motorcycle if they're so into saving the environment why it is so rip off price wise
@@richardcerritelli9657 usually first gen of anything is very high priced to compensate for r&d. It’s definitely a rip off if you’re going solely by price to performance.
It is definitely NOT slow whatsoever. The acceleration on it is crazy. If you haven’t ridden one yet I’d say give it a try. It’s quicker than my friends cbr 600 and triumph bonneville. They both rode it.
What about depreciation ?
10k per year is unusual here in the UK, most bikes that are for sale after 10 or 20 years barely have 10k on them lol.
I'm thinking more about the value of the bike as it ages rather than running costs, insurance here in UK is £400 for me and will be the biggest cost after depreciation if I dont do many miles.
I am wondering if this bike has the potential to be a future classic.
Looking back, I think the LiveWire ONE will go down as the most important bike in 100 years. That being said, it's pretty hard to make money on classic motorcycles. In 1975, I owned a 1973 Z1 tomato tank frame serial number 2,105 and engine number 2,151. I paid $1,850 CDN for it. Fifty years later, it's worth $20,000 USD. Not a good investment. However, selling it (40 years ago) is one of my greatest regrets!
@@freedomiseverything I'm not looking to make money on bikes ( houses and sticks are for that ) but rather just thinking that bikes are such a poor investment generally but this might be a way of minimising the loss by getting ebike that's so iconic it will be worth more than all the other electric bikes later on so having it sitting in the garage and taking it out now and then for some fun wouldn't be costing as much maybe ..
Other option is just go really cheap but then I wouldn't get the same feeling but also wouldn't be worried about damaging it..
HD Robbed you for Labor to change two tires.. I can get close to 58 MPG on my Yamaha FZ-07 .. I paid $4.14 cents for oil filters. and oil change is 2.5 quarts .. I paid $19.00 for 5 quarts of 10w-40 Castrol .. thus an oil change costs me $15.00. I do have to oil the chain daily .. I bought a half case of chain lube 20 years ago and have used half of it .
I agree with squaaak on this. I actually own the livewire an mt-07 and r3. The livewire is my husband’s but from our area on the east coast there’s a few major difference’s. Charge points are not as ubiquitous around here and are very sporadic most chatting is done at home where a kilowatt hour is $.26 per also gas around here at premium is currently sub $4 it’s $3.97 also my r3 gets more range than my husband’s livewire by a significant amount and I don’t know why you’re insurance is so astronomical the insurance on my commuter the r3 is $9.07 a month so when you said $24 I’m unsure if that’s monthly or full cost and I suspect if it’s full cost if you actually get into an accident they’ll deny the claim due to misinformation because I doubt they realize what they’re insuring.
I feel I should give some numbers on this. Since my r3 is my go to that’s what I’m going to use, my r3 gets roughly 178 miles to a tank the tank is 2.5 gallons and costs me $8.09 to fill from when it starts pulling from the reserve (the .5 gallons). The livewire on our home network costs around $6.24 to charge to full also insurance is $56 monthly both bikes use tires so those costs would basically be the same, the only really change is servicing and maintenance. Obviously cleaning your chain takes like 15 minutes and if you do it yourself should be the cost of the cleaning products every few seasons, however my r3 needs oil changes which my husband does and that still costs us less than $50 a change. So in all actuality assuming you don’t get a premium liter bike and assuming both are paid off (both are) insurance is cheaper on the ice bike charging costs less but takes more time on the livewire. And as an owner of the livewire and an MT07 lol the fact that you claim a livewire is more premium is absolutely absurd just because it costs more doesn’t make it better hun.
Oh yeah my r3 was bought preowned and cost $3,700 with no issue’s. The livewire since we still have all the paperwork after all fee’s cost $24,972.68 so do the math and tell me which is cheaper because I’ve already done the calculations and both bikes will be well into their lifespans by the time they break even.
I agree that an R3 or MT07 have a cheaper cost of ownership than LiveWire. The insurance quote was $24 per month for the LiveWire from State Farm. They know what they are insuring and they will pay my claims and represent me in court if there is a problem.
I suggest you stay off of your husband's LiveWire. I let my wife ride mine and it's probably going to cost me another $25K:
ruclips.net/video/gBz1i9FJ_c4/видео.html
How do people get such low insurance rates? I went to my local insurance agency to get my 2020 rebel 500 insured and was to pay $300 for a year. I was told that was the lowest rate available. My bike was fully paid off at the time. Is there a trick to it or something? Also, my car insurance alone is $100 a month. What am I doing wrong?
@@Wolfik1994maus depends on the type of insurance and state, in my state I’m able to have collision and accident coverage without having full coverage. Simultaneously I bought my commuter bike used with 12k miles on it for $2,700 which isn’t a huge deal it’s about 2 months of savings so if anything happens to it I can either, change coverage to fill and play it off or simply replace it.
You are certainly paying less for home 120V charging than I am. I live just south of San Francisco and most appliances in my home are powered with natural gas, so I am on the lowest electric rate tier. I received my monthly PG&E bill for July two weeks ago and I am paying 42.558 cents per kWh for "off peak" power and 48.902 cents per kWh for "peak" electrical power. (I always recharge my Zero during the "off peak" early morning time.) Right now my electric power charges are going up fast almost every month while gasoline prices have dropped a bit down to $5.40 a gallon. I might add that a year ago I was paying 25 cents per kWh before PG&E installed a "smart meter" and implemented the "peak" and "off peak" fee scheme.
Here is a rate calculator that show what you will pay for electricity anywhere in the USA:
www.saveonenergy.com/electricity-rates/#:~:text=The%20average%20residential%20electricity%20rate,kilowatt%2Dhour%20(kWh).&text=The%20average%20electric%20price%20a,is%2012.14%20cents%20per%20kWh.
The national average is 13.72 cents per kWh. In my case at home, I have a discounted rate (EV2-1) because I have an electric car.
During his freshman year, Preston lived in a dorm and didn’t have acces to a plug. He fast charged at the Whole Foods grocery store while he was eating a sandwich in the deli @ 45 cents per kWh. Over the summer, he lived at a frat house and they let him change level 1 for free. His internship is 75 miles away and has free on-site DC fast charging. In two weeks, Preston is moving into a studio apartment a block from campus. Utilities are included in the rent and the landlord is cool with Preston running an extension cord out the window to charge his bike. The reality is that Preston is almost always charging for free.
This month, the average price for premium gas in California was $6.29:
gasprices.aaa.com/?state=CA
Yeah but California sucks ass
who do you use for insurance?
State Farm
That Livewire insurance isn’t correct though. If you have a loan they want full coverage, and that’s based on bike value. 2x the price would mean higher insurance. My Tiger 900 costs me about $0.14 per mile over same range. Co2 of course is not the same.
The insurance cost is not based on just value. They consider engine size, rider experience and claims history to name a few...
Gotta admit that this is an analysis of a corner case rider, since you’re way out on the bell curve for yearly mileage. Average mileage in the US is about 2000 miles/yr, so the cost for most people is dominated by acquisition cost and not running costs, which puts the IC bike at roughly half the cost for most buyers. The current MT-10 also has a 6 axis IMU so that advantage disappears.
So the question for most people becomes whether the electric “experience” is worth a 1.5-2.0X premium. I think it might be, but that’s a tough sell especially for people who might not be open minded to a new way of riding.
If you don’t ride much, get a gas bike. If you’re a rider, go electric.
@@freedomiseverything a lot of people who ride a lot of miles do so on longer trips, which are challenging especially outside if California’s charge network. You’ve got to admit that you’re kind of a unicorn for EV ridership.
I paid $7,400.00 for a new 2016 FZ-07 in 2017.. So I have what $10,000.00 to spend on Gasoline before .. I have the cost of a Livewire .. or did you pay $29,000.00 for .. May as well add your Tax rebate in there..
Since Combustible Engines are Being fased out by 2035, & the Del Mar is Coming.We might as well all make that Transition to EV..though that Honda Rebel 1100 DCT sounds appealing & I will Recieve my Sondors Metacycle,prolly near Christmas
Good report. Your son got robbed on those tires and labor.
I agree. He is new to Northern California and hasn't been there long enough to establish a good relationship with a mechanic. In Southern California, we are getting excellent pricing and service from Louis at LiveWire in Canoga Park.
Usually, on the gas bikes, I just do it myself. I take the wheels off and have Cycle Gear mount and balance the new tires on the rims. However, the LiveWire has a belt configuration and I don't know the proper way to tension it. I also don't have the proper lifts and stands for the LiveWire and I don't want to scratch it. I'm not in a rush to learn how to do it myself because LiveWire takes service appointments and they give me a loaner bike while they are working on mine.
@@freedomiseverything Best if your son learns to do his own wrenching. Makes motorcycling way more satisfying when you've fixed things yourself. Otherwise you have to do a whole lot of work at your job to cover the cost of stealership's outrageous bills.
Currently the bike cost $29,000 against a $16,000 bike, at your saving estimate of approximate $2000 every 11,000 miles. It will take 77,000 miles or in your case, 14 years before you break even. That's not counting the cost of replacing the battery, possibly twice, at $2,000 each during that period. Nor have you considered the environment impact in recycling the defective batteries. The bike will go 120 miles on the average, not exceeding 70 mph, with not wind on flat ground, between recharges and if you exceed that mileage every time you take the bike for a ride you spend 91 hours waiting for a recharge. Perhaps you should discuss what style and type of riding the bike fits.
The LiveWire ONE cost $23K not $29K. There is no indication that the battery needs to be replaced at 30,000 miles. Plus, the maintenance cost is substantially lower than an MT10.
Here is a video I did with more complete information about cost of ownership:
ruclips.net/video/tDnf_4h78kM/видео.html
It's not a matter of type or style of riding. If you do lots of riding, go electric. If you don't ride much, get a gas bike.
Here is some information about battery recycling you may be interested in:
blog.ucsusa.org/jessica-dunn/californias-progress-toward-recycling-policy-for-ev-batteries/#:~:text=Yes%2C%20EV%20battery%20recycling%20is,the%20manufacturing%20of%20new%20batteries.
You can get the livewire now for half the cost you’re talking about all day long.
It's an old video. You can get a low mileage LiveWire for less than $10K these days.
Motorcycles are meant to rumble. Except no subs.
“ I love the smell of napalm in the morning”
Lots of misleading information here. The mt 10 is a far better bike in most ways, (weight, handling, range, purchase price, power delivery, etc.) , oil changes with motul full synthetic are more like $75, tire mounting and balancing is about $50 per tire, etc etc. I have no idea where you went to get these services done, but if you paid what you said you did, you were ripped off big time. Not that I don't like the live wire, I do. It's just that contrary to this video, it is far more expensive to buy and own with much less bang for the buck if you want to ride mountain roads and things.
Motul 300V 4T 5W40 is $96.25 at Revzilla. The oil filter is $17.99 at Revzilla. The air filter is $28.61 at Partszilla. The cheapest place is my area to get work done on Japanese bikes is Mountain Motorsports in Ontario, California.
Their labor charge for an oil change is $60.
Their labor charge to mount front and rear tire is $175.
Their labor charge to change the air filter is $90.
Their labor charge for a valve adjustment is $550.
So in the cheapest case, I could have got the oil change done for $174.24 if I had brought my own oil and filter to the dealer, instead of the $230.00 I usually pay to get it done at Mach 1 Motorsports in Costa Mesa, California. The difference is that Mountain Motorsports can't do it while I wait and won't take appointments. Also, I trust the mechanics at Mach 1 not to over-torque my oil drain plug.
The reality is that I'm not overpaying for service and the service costs on the MT10 are vastly understated in my video. This video has gotten lots of views. I'm going to update it with the cost to run my Street Fighter and Z H2 as well.
The MT10 is an inferior bike to the LiveWire in the canyons. It's not even close. The electronics package on the MT10 can't hold a candle to modern premium bikes with 6-axis IMUs. Plus, the LiveWire throttle response and torque are second to none below 100 MPH.
The LiveWire Experience Center in Malibu, California will loan you a bike for a few hours to ride in the canyons for free. I suggest you bring your leathers, give it a try and find out for yourself. These guys are coming off an R6 and a Duke:
ruclips.net/video/kj01Sfv1Uao/видео.html
Hah. My insurance company seems to know what the bike it is. So Mine is closer to the same as my van.
I'm using State Farm. You may want to give them a call.
My insurance cost is similar to Jack's cost. I use Allstate in NY and it cost me $296.40 for 12 months of insurance so about $25/mo. NY does insurance and registration/inspection in 12 months intervals.
My Yamaha FZ-07 runs fine on 87 Octane cost me $5 to $6 to fill up when Trump was President .. Now costs me like $12 to fill up during the Bejing Biden Administration ..
Greatest comment ever
For $22,000 I can get a KTM 1290 Super Duke over this junk Harley bullshit
Sorry, but you're going to spend way more than $22K on a Super Duke:
ruclips.net/video/tDnf_4h78kM/видео.html
Do yourself a favor and test ride a LiveWire.