Just a piece of advice for your next talk with a German: Try not to interrupt them mid-sentence (as you did at 3:07, 5:46 etc). It is considered extremely impolite and you can tell from Günter's reaction that he was irritated.
Wonderful video ! Cutting stampers to produce LPs designed for radial arm playback... never thought of that. Plus, a lot of other technological & quality advancements discussed here. Thanks much, Michael.
I am so tired of vinyl people putting down Digital. I like both formats and I buy according to which, I feel have the best mastering. This is the reason the music industry is dying, nobody talks music. When I hear people talking about music. 90% of the time it’s the Digital / Vinyl debate. Nobody talks about the actual music.
I also buy both vinyl and cds according to different reasons such as price or how recent an album (and its mastering) is, for example. I don't really get why people compare the cd to some kind of sh*t quality.. Because it is not! Maybe you can say that to songs on YT, but cd It's still the best way to get music and listen to it in a very good quality for cheap. You can get cds starting from 1€! Can't say the same for vinyls. Also, don't forget that not everyone can afford vinyl and expensive audio systems. But at least they can afford cds and a cd player with a pair of headphones.
Nothing is dying, just changing. There’s a few people doing what you say, but I don’t think that’s killing anything. I’m vinyl collector and lover, but I also enjoy the portability of digital. There’s no fight.
So what! The audiophile industry madness just means better audio for everyone no matter which source you prefer. I don’t want to listen to a Victrola and thanks to the madness I don’t have to.
I see a lot of people quick to disparage this guy's work because it's not purely analog. Let's wait until Mr. Fremer here is able to spend some time with a pressing done using this method, then we can evaluate it based on its actual merits (or lack thereof). Let's stop treating audio as if were religion - we're all smarter than that. Only once I have a chance to hear this technology for myself and also read what my colleagues have to say will I form an opinion on it.
The interviewer sounds rude when he talks about the guy "cutting a positive" and not trying to understand what they guy is saying. Yes, you can make a peak with a laser by cutting out surrounding areas. It's like when you have stone art, and the artist cuts around the parts they want to stick out. On topic: I wonder if you could use a laser to cut a ceramic record so that it wouldn't wear as fast as a vinyl record. Then maybe have a laser read it to avoid needle inertia changing the sound.
He was kind of a dick in general, like I'm all about improving the old one possible and I think this guy kind a gets upset that technology mixed with the past could create some thing better. Does it matter if we can't hear those frequencies the fact that they even be there is pretty astounding
seems a difficult task to cut a positive V or rounded V with a laser. Dual lasers, one for each channel? Ceramics like alumina (aluminum oxide) are really tough stuff.
This is definitely an OMG moment! I really hope this goes forward, not only can you make a optimised pivoted arm aligned record, you can optimise that record for a there own specific stylus, I wonder if you could optimise for an elliptical shaped stylus? A lot of people will have to re-setup the arms, depending on the alignment chosen... I can see one of the majors getting behind this, with the ultimate deluxe vinyl package of containing there own stylus for that "special play back" ...... Can't wait....
Almost spring 2020, and still nothing! They were supposed to debut last autumn, but there's still no hd vinyl! With the apollo fire, we need this badly!
All you people freaking out that you don't want "digital vinyl" (because the music needs to be digitized before it can be cut with this method) are living under a rock. NEWS FLASH : Almost ALL music recorded today and in recent history has been recorded using digital means. No studio owner or engineer that I know of, other than Steven Albini, advocates for a complete analog recording process to tape (and his argument for doing so isn't even necessarily predicated on the idea it sounds better). Even older albums that are being remastered and released from tape are almost certainly being remastered digitally. So, unless you only ever plan on buying records that were recorded and pressed before the digital era (and if you do, why do you care how modern records are made?), you're ALREADY buying "digital vinyl" and have been for decades.
Neil Young records all analog. Fact. He tried digital for many years but gradually went back to analog, and today he makes sure everything is analog no matter what.
Yeah, I am having fun collecting his "output", but he is not alone. He has persuaded several others to follow, and many others dream of being able to do it the all analog way With all 1977 Equipment despite the fact that it is expensive and very non-convenient in 2017. I will stay in tune to those who indeed get albums done all analog and buy them no matter what kind of Music it is. I wish to support a noble and very well sounding cause. Records I buy that have been well taken care of from the 70 sound amazing. The Power is in the grooves. I am often blown away by how great 40 year old records sound.
Innovation like this is always a good thing in my view. The guy is clearly very committed to the project since he's had to secure funding at least twice. I say let's wait to see the results and let our ears be the judge once product becomes available.
This is very interesting. Having past experience in the Advanced Ceramics industry, materials like Aluminum Oxide, Aluminum Nitride or Zirconium Oxide might get considered for the eventual stamper substrate. It would be nice to see REBEAT consider how an analog music source (starting out) potentially could be used as well to drive the laser. As mentioned during the interview, at the end of the day a digital file must be created in order to drive the computer guided laser.
Armchair speculation: If you knew the play time you'd be able to calibrate how aggressive the groove spiral is (is that what it's called? No idea). You could then play from analog tape, converting the tape's amplitude & pitch into laser position & amplitude to get an all-analog cut.
About the process -- and just to be clear: Is this like laserdisc's ANALOG video? I.e, a laser is used to create a pure analog "groove"? If so, then using a high-quality undigitzed source (tradit. 2-track analog deck) to feed the new HD vinyl laser stamper might be revolutionary.
This is fantastic! This reminds me of the digilog tapes. Where they had a normal cassette tape and they used a digital cassette head to reduce hiss and create the best sound possible. I wonder if this would also improve the sound quality of picture vinyl.
All of you naysayers might want to take a pill. It is likely that an analog source could drive the "lathe." But the argument for software is the digital elimination of tracking error, which is a big damn deal. So you could either have an entirely analog system, complete with radial tracking error, or you could have a digital system without any tracking error. Now consider that since you will be able to dramatically increase tracking force while simultaneously lowering record and stylus wear, and there are clearly some offsetting benefits. In my business, we deal with digitally-controlled analog processors, and I suppose that it's possible that eventually something like that could be applied here. The audio is a separate, unadulterated track, but it is synched to a digital control track. In REBEAT's system, perhaps there could be digital control of analog processing to add that tracking correction back in. Someone out there lots smarter than I can work on that!
Surely there's scope to correct for stylus profile too, adapt the groove for the commonest elliptical shape for accurate high-ampitude high-frequency motion. And it makes three-sided discs much easier to cut!
This sounds fascinating! Although reading some comments below some are not open to this at all. I for one would love to hear a LP cut with this new tech. I'm not a fan of the GZ pressing plant as the Pallas plant would be a much better choice of quality. Look forward to see the end result.
And what about using photolitography like semiconductors manufacturers and cut the final vynils directly without anything between? and change the PVC disc for something more 21 century like polyetherketone
It’s another potential choice. For me I prefer analogue but I do not mind if people prefer a digital cut, but you will lose authenticity of the sound no matter in my opinion. For me though when I saw the Project frames on the wall in the background told me enough to not listen too much but that’s because I am into high end audio.
First off, fuck the digital debate. The interview as I see it centers around this method's ability to preserve the integrity of the pressing process from the beginning of a release to it's end. The one concern I do have is that if you are using the "HD" stylus to play an "HD" cut according to the graphic shown there is no clearance between the stylus tip and the apex of the groove. Will this cause the effects of deep groove contaminants to increase surface noise, perhaps exponentially? Maybe the best utility is in the knowledge that you are getting a "fresher" pressing even though you are using conventional playback gear. I do see the opportunity to go back and redo multi channel vinyl properly given the increased bandwidth available. I just don't know where we would place the 5th+.1 channels.
I can't believe it has taken this long to come to fruition. This leaves the remaining analogue gear for analogue use. Even if the quality is the same being able to print 10000 records with no reduction in quality is amazing and 80 db S/N nice. The time it takes to make a stamper the fact that one stamper does what would require 10 in the current process. Brilliant. Digital is not all bad!!!
I have a question, when i'll play a hd vinyl record with 30% extended playing time on my turntable with a current spheric stylus in my cartridge how will that affect my sound quality or my amplitude?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong Playing a CD utilizes the D/A converter in your CD player....so now matter how well the CD is mastered, quality of the audio is highly dependent on the quality of the DAC of your reciever (if using optical or coaxial digital output) or your CD/DVD/Blu-Ray player (if RCA analog output) On the other hand, a turntable delivers an analog signal straight from the vinyl itself....so the D/A conversion you hear is straight from the studio...but is degraded during the cutting phase since analog lathes aren't as accurate as lasers. A digital lathe would cut studio master quality grooves into the vinyl...which is at least 24-bit these days. FLAC quality with vinyl "warmth".
Wall Street investors love high-end audio. Ditto for Sand Hill: California/Silicon Valley VC (venture capital) funders. REBEAL should approach these guys for $$.
You know what I think we really need some R&d money put into from this industry… new disc cutting computers. Think about it, the most advanced ones ever put into use (vms-80/82) are at this point well over 30 years old. Think of how far technology has progressed since the early 1980's. that cutting computer can model the groove excursion based on the preview head signal for every 1/16 of a revolution. If we could build a cutting computer based on today's technology, model the groove more accurately and frequently so we could pack the groove tighter together without overcutting ... who's to say we couldn't get the same 30% increase in efficiency? Longer sides, greater amplitude, nearly all this is promising but without the stench of BS and without losing the ability to maintain an analog cut from an analog source. It would mean nice long and loud sides even at 45rpm... even for your classic "long side" albums, think all analog single LP 45rpm Pink Floyd or something to that effect.
G.J.T We should just go back to acoustic recordings on wax cylinders. I don't want those new fangled "electrical" recordings. A lot of information is lost by converting sound waves to electrical impulses, and then back into mechanical energy used to cut the record, and then back into electrical impulses again when the record is played, and then back into mechanical energy when the sound comes out of the speakers.
Its already been done. It's called Pitch 13 and if I remember correctly it updates every 1/32 of a revoluition. Lathes turn slowly and so they don't really wear out.
Mike Papas interesting, that's news to me. It seems like they've doubled it from 1/16 to 1/32... and I'd love to see a record cut on one of those systems, still, I can't help but imagine it's a very DIY solution, for lack of a better term... If one of the big players put some real money into developing something with today's tech, that could maybe accurately model the groove let's say every 1/128th of a revolution, or maybe even 10 times that... or do whatever had to be done that also allows the laser cut system to achieve such a tight groove spacing and that kind of efficiency. We'd really be onto something. It'd be the biggest breakthrough in analog disc mastering in decades.
I remember asking you about this last year. Now I get to hear a small bit of it being talked about. although it goes against all that is great about analog sound. This will be interesting to see happen.
What ever happened to that lazer record player that the Japanese made? Always wanted to hear one... they were expensive! Hey Michael, did you ever hear one?
Interesting concept. I've owned digital vinyl since Ry Cooder's "Bop Till You Drop" LP and I've lived to tell about it. As far as I know, the world is still turning. Mikey, the way I understand it, the laser will cut away the ceramic (or whatever material they decide upon) where the signal isn't and "leave" the ridge that carries/contains the signal. Pls let us know when they send you a test pressing. :)
So... maybe looks that is made from digital source but Hi-Res audio is not step down in sound quality if we copy that digital sound with laws on analog reproduction with stylus. In that case maybe most sound engineer might understand how to make the right mastering. Stylus have physical limitations that must be respected for correct sound. Nice, we finally come back to right mastering.
I don't understand what is new... If you record your guitar into music production software the analogue wave is analysed by the processor and recorded into binary so that it can be stored as data. When you play back your recording the data goes back through a converter which decides where the voltage of the waveform should be and then puts it out the same way it went in... Using this method you are just changing WHERE the conversion is done. It's still susceptible to dirt and damage just like a CD.
Analog Planet Exactly, why not just get your data from flash memory or a hard drive? Why put it on a disc and use a mechanical pick up that is custom made for the single purpose of music reproduction? If it goes wrong it goes to a factory in the midlands where you wait for weeks/months to have it fixed... I do not see the appeal at all. Especially with the important components exposed like in a conventional analogue system. More stuff to go wrong and more specialised componentry and more specialised servicing. Nomatter how this technology moves forward, it will be unnecessarily expensive
I saw an Ace Freheley interview where he said it is so simple to make a record today With pro-Tools. It sounds a lot better With analog, but With how easy protools is to fix a mistake most People do it that way. The final produc will sound far from as good as an all out analog Product, but the time, blood, tears and sweat saved makes it easy for me to choosepro-tools. I recorded all analog for 20 years andthere is no question it is superior, but it cn make you pull Your hairs out With the time and accurate nature Things need to be delivered. No delete or step back 23 Seconds. You get it right or you do not get it t all. With pro-Tools all can be fixed, but the amazing analog sound is missing.
Imagine: the combination of a hd analog signal with a touchless optical tracking device. Printed on a polycarbonate disc, securely placed inside of a rectangular box using a little drawer providing a higher signal output. It would be very compact, so you could call it, let' s say : compact disc? No? The very point is an analog signal, substituting the mechano-electrical conversion of conventional cartridges with an optical-electrical conversion could be real progress.
Christian Goergen aka AstraOovier The first time I heard of this technology was in the 80’s. I was working in high end audio at the time and saw a prototype at CES once, but did not hear it actually play. This company claims to be producing a finished product, but strangely, I’ve never seen it reviewed. Maybe more vapor ware than reality? Interesting to know the concept is still around though.
I see this as a win-win situation for those of us who aren't extreme analog fanatics. If you accept the fact that digital recording is technically superior to analog recording regardless how you personally feel about the sound of it, you should be exited about this as a vinyl fan. This would be the first time we get to hear a true hi-res studio quality copy without having to worry about a consumer grade DAC adding it's signature to it. I'm interested in hearing the results of HD vinyl played back with a $20-$30 cartridge with a conical tip. I imagine it being similar to traditional vinyl played back with a hyper eliptical or maybe even a vivid line or Shibata. Hell, if you truly want warmth, you possibly get a pleasing sound out of a ceramic cartridge. This whole HD vinyl concept could make it dramatically cheaper to get your desired sound from your turntable. It could also make buying album on vinyl much cheaper since most albums would be able to fit on one disc. I'm not seeing a whole lot of negatives here.
I like this guy, Gunter.The reality is that not all vinyl records stamped "back in the day" were good sounding records. Some of the new vinyl being released today is remarkable. So it seems logical that a high quality analog source could be derived from a very high level digital master.
Ceramic can stand up to even, consistent pressure. Yes, it can also shatter. Let's cut down on the incredulity. (Also noted when talking about how most records use digital delay lines... and Vinyl lovers still love the vinyl.)
This is an important move, because the older "cutting masterers" are not teaching their craft to the younger people! That's a big problem for the future of vinyl LP's! I'd rather it stay ALL analogue, but "hi res dsd" is close , and it will insure the business will go on!
Hmm .. waaait a minute: suppose that .. maybe, just maybe, we could build a half-way decent digital to analog converter, like the ones we use on the way from digital masters to stampers .. then we could skip the computational modelling and laser etching of stamper surfaces, with their staircase walls and rounding errors, and make a duplication master directly, identical to the digital master itself (maybe with some added bits to prevent read errors and such) !! Why, if the bits were small enough, we could even stamp out direct copies of the master on small discs, smaller than an LP ... ... If the master was analog tape, we might even use DSD, and call the disc .. hmmm, Super Audio LP, or something .. i got it, SACD, because the disc could be veeery small, even compact ..
DamjanB52 Yes... yes and maybe instead of being read with a stylus, these small discs could be read with a laser, that way the information on the disc won't degrade over time through mechanical contact.
A laser, you say, Mr. Krabs? True, no mechanical contact, but a laser would burn holes in the disc, right? Unless .. unless it was turned off .. Hmm, right, laser off, so .. Aha, you could then make it veery small, lightweight, and just drag it gently over the bumps and pits, registering its vibrations (vertical groove modulation). Why, if you could control its speed, you might even eliminate inner groove distortion .. Laser, right, why did't i think of that ..
DamjanB52 But wait, since the information on these "compact discs" would be digitally encoded, inner groove distortion won't even be a problem. Omg you're a genius!
Wondrous things you envision, Mr. Krabs, these "compact discs" of which you speak .. But apart from non-distructive playback, absence of noise and distortion, playing time, channel separation, ... what could these discs ever do for us?
For Pete’s sake Michael: Stop interrupting people when they are explaining something! I know you have to guide your interview, but I found it extremely rude not waiting until he finishes his sentence and then you can start asking. In general, Germans are very respectful in that matter, and it’s perceived negatively when you interrupt people abruptly like that. Just a friendly recommendation
Kudos for applying modern manufacturing techniques to push the envelope further. However, I do have my reservations about the theoretical advantages because, as pointed out in another video about loudspeakers (Mr Linkwitz), Ears and Eyes work in different ways so perfect graphs don't necessarily equate to perfect audio. I can't wait to hear the results and am optimistic. I emailed Günter about the würst flaw in vinyl which is off centre pressings and he said it is the responsibility of the pressing plant. Ahem!!! HD or not, it is a bag of balls if the piano is wonky. Scuse the crassness ;) A real quantum leap in vinyl (If we can send people to the moon) would be to actually centre both sides A and B of the stampers in the pressing plant. Am I asking a lot???
this already existed in the 70's, the Trinitron discs by pr. Rabe. Most of them were classical music records. Almost the same system as presented here.
Imagine if you will, a world where scanners are of such a high resolution that the most pristine and lush sounding analog-sourced vinyl could be scanned, groove perfect, and have those scans used to make copies using this laser cutter. You could take only the best presses and then replicate the exact grooves from those sources.
So the often good analogue recordings will be digitalized as an extra step, and then replayed on an analogue player. Isn't it just better and cheaper to campaign for another new troublesome digital media?
No almost everything is made from digital files now. Vinyl just adds the nostalgic hiss and harmonic distortions and equipment bias to give the classic vinyl ''analog'' sound. Being HD and ''lossless'' is a myth since it has physical limitations. with less detail and dynamics and added colorations compared to hi rez digital
It is extremely easy to make generalizations about things people know very little about. I am sure some people feel confident making judgments on subjects they know nothing about
The best remains direct-to-disc. No tape machine, no AD converter. Just the cutting lathe and a lacquer disc (or a metal disc - DMM).That was how 78's were made back in the Twenties, Thirties and Forties! There is a purity of sound locked in those old 78's that digital processing still cannot capture! And the microgroove era from the late Forties to the late Seventies offered great fidelity at a low cost to the average music lover! And it all went downhill in '82 with the arrival of the CD and recording studios discarding their great-sounding 30 ips Ampex and Studer RTR's for the convenience of digital processing and mixing. NOT GOOD! Remember, the fewer things done to the mike signal the more truer to reality the final result. This touted "advancement" seems like another bandaid for digital processing. A well-made all analog LP will always sound better than one made from a digital source. I know this from personal experience after listening to the first digital-sourced LP's (Denon and Telarc) back in '78. Doug Sax's Sheffields beat them all! Keep the LP all analog!
Jack White records bands that play at his venue in Nashville straight to acetate. As for 78's sounding bad, often it was just one mic in a room and one take. Along with being played on primitive equipment having the equivalent of a nail for a stylus. So much of the beautiful recordings were never heard because of this.
All matter has/is made with light - all you need is proper lightwave modulation to release the whole spectrum and then the idea of analog vs digital is a moot point - FULL SPECTRUM DOMINATION!
what is the point, what possible advantage could ever be gained from this convoluted process how could the end result ever sound better than the digital source file you start with, why bother
lorem ipsum there ain't any point. Beside that the digital to analog conversation has happened in the plant. And the record industry have the whole control over the digital domain (when it comes to vinyl) So then you can not do a perfect bit to bit copy..
Analog Planet sorry to not be so clear. of course the DA conversation is not "done in the plant". The thing I was trying to say that the DA conversation is done PRIOR it gets into consumers hands (what already is happening today anyway). In contrast to digital download, CD and such there the consumer has its own DA converter. And there are a wide selection of DA converters. So it is only a preference of where you want the conversation to happen. If you make the DA conversion then you will be able to get better sound each time in the future you buying a new converter. There are continues improvement. But if you have bought this type of digital vinyl then the DA is done with equipment from 2017. And in 2037 there have come better sonically DA converters! But your DA conversion in your vinyl are stuck in 2017.. It is like your CD sounds better now then you bought them in the 80-ies. Because of the hardware improvements.
Analog Planet yes and of course there will be a point in time in the future there consumer D/A convertor will be superior than they have today in the industry. The history repeats itself like with the CD records from the past. Today they are "10 times" better sonically than they where produced in 1980 and onwards.
LPs are already "digital" if that's what you mean. Unless you own a first pressing (not after 1985 or so because of the CD introduction) of a record or a late reissue that uses the original analog masters, you're 100% listening to a digitally sourced vinyl. That's over 90% of the cases when it comes to reissues and new albums in general.
I was working in high end audio at the time and saw a prototype of a laser “turntable” from a company called Finial Technology (I think) at CES once, but did not hear it actually play. This company claims to be producing a finished product, but strangely, I’ve never seen it reviewed. Maybe more vapor ware than reality? Interesting to know the concept is still around though. Here’s a link.... www.elpj.com
I think you'll find it difficult to grasp how he makes the stamper it works by burning away the low parts and leaving a ridge. titanium would be a good material for this or maybe Chromium, all the best material would be tungsten, or artificial forgotten the name of hand the hardest man made even harder then diamond they make flasks to manufactured diamonds foam it in the UK. you called it cutting ? it's not cutting the stamper it is forming a stamper no cutting is involved. It works by forcing the material away you're not taking any material off. can be done by cutting into material this is a cheap and not very good quality would not be used in mass production.
Fascinating! if only the sampling rate could be multiples faster to the equivalent of analog. (much faster than 192 mHz) Analog is quantized on the quantum level. Everything is in the known Universe, in case anyone would like to know!
Sounds promising but the "proposed" technology may potentially exterminate the analog recording method since he mentioned that 95% of the recording now are done digitally. Even on vinyls. And then I'm no longer excited.
Why could this technology exterminate the analog recording process? Sadly it's already happing, and it's been happening since the mid 1980s because of the CD. Almost no new records are recored analogically and this technology is not about going against analog, it's about improving the digitally sourced vinyl records which already represent the majority of the records, both new and reissues. I also have to note that in many cases a "digital" vinyl record doesn't sound bad because of it being digital, but because of the loudness war which also affects CDs negatively. That is what is killing the overall sound quality of both new and old music. In fact, most albums when getting reissued often get "remastered" as well meaning they increased the loudness by cutting off frequencies thus restricting the dynamic range of the original recording. Sad but true.
thanks for a great video as usual. Personally, vinyl is an analogue medium for me - I really don't see the point of cutting vinyl from a digital signal or in any way which makes it a non analogue experience. Sorry.
Interviewer thinks because it's digital, it has to be inferior... Dude, calculate the size of the needle point and how many times you can place it over the distance a record travels in a second. Can you fit 44,100 needle heads in that space? What about cutting the record, can you etch in a waveform that has a frequency of 200khz? Because with digital you can use TTA, "True Audio" codec and get 64 bit word length and 4Ghz (4,000,000,000) sampling rate. Or you cold develop a codec that goes up into terahertz and be more precise than an atom. Trust me, it's not "digital" that is the the bottleneck. There's nothing magical about digital vs analogue except that one isn't as accurate and has more distortion. (You can test the distortion or fidelity of almost anything by copying things through it... Print a piece of paper, scan it, print it again, repeat 1000x, then compare with the same scanner and another printer, and the same printer and another scanner. You'll have an idea of the relative fidelity of each system. My prediction would be that digital is one or more orders of magnitude more capable of maintaining fidelity of 90% or more when it comes to extraneous noise which would soon overdevelop on vinyl being cut, played back, and the line output of that re-cut.)
What market are they going after? Something can be technically competent but economically not feasible. The demographic that is both ok with digital in their vinyl and is willing to spend big $$$ on vinyl playback seems quite small. If you read through comments it is either "get this digital out of my analog" or "digital is perfect". Regardless of your chosen flavor of audio, neither of these camps are in the demographic that would buy this product. It will be interesting to see who, if anybody will buy these pressings.
I don't think he is going for any market represented in this forum. With a focus on 10,000 original pressings I think he is going after the new popular market that is probably driving the increase in vinyl sales as oppose to us audiophiles who have been steadily buying over the years but we have small numbers. I am very interested in new approaches to press vinyl that may increase sound quality. I listen to a broad range of music and good some vinyl pressings sound great while bad ones sound awful. I have to say the same for my digital collection. I no longer believe its just the medium particularly as I have experimented with different DAC chips and even recorded vinyl with A-D convertors. I always seem to be able to create recordings that are more musical and more vinyl sounding than buying the same recording as a CD. How can that be if it's the medium. Look forward to hearing a vinyl record produced from this process. Then we can give our opinion on the resulting sound which for me is what matters.
We already have a medium that can be recorded with a laser. Compact Disc. Why not "burn" analog information to it and read it back with a laser? Tracking information can be multiplexed.
Sounds good. And to all the people who say it's " digital " I have news for you : 90% of the pressings these days are from digital sources. Also I gonna be honest I buy LPs every now and then because it looks cool, and it also feels cool. It's a good experience buying an album, taking it out of the sleeve and putting it on a turntable. It's not about the " analog " sound for me. Most of you people listen to music on vinyl for these reasons as well, you just won't admit it and pretend that it sounds superior to digital files while it really does not. like at all.
This "sounds" very interesting. I have 2 high tech sound measuring devices I will use to test the sound once one of these is available. My left ear and my right ear. Nothing else matters. 😝
I'm prepared to buck the trend here....I'll wait and hear an HD vinyl before forming an actual opinion. My main concern is that most bands/artists can't even write a good tune to begin with, and therefore even a great pressing just glorifies a turd.
Quick Google: 1. There's an Artist of that name, if not intended meaning, on Bandcamp. 2. The Latin meaning of "vires" is 'powers' which is quite apt. As in Ultra Vires - beyond the powers as detailed in a law.
Obviously they plan to carve slaves. I hope they do, so they avoid three copying steps. Which would be the first album to produce? New challenges for the cartridge industry. 100 khz needs the next generation of cantilevers. What about better vinyl formulas? Clean room technique, similar to cd manufacturing? Audiophile niche or mass market? Stay tuned!
Just a piece of advice for your next talk with a German: Try not to interrupt them mid-sentence (as you did at 3:07, 5:46 etc). It is considered extremely impolite and you can tell from Günter's reaction that he was irritated.
The interviewer is also frequently contradictory, in a way that to be frank I would say is rude.
Wonderful video ! Cutting stampers to produce LPs designed for radial arm playback... never thought of that. Plus, a lot of other technological & quality advancements discussed here. Thanks much, Michael.
I am so tired of vinyl people putting down Digital. I like both formats and I buy according to which, I feel have the best mastering. This is the reason the music industry is dying, nobody talks music. When I hear people talking about music. 90% of the time it’s the Digital / Vinyl debate. Nobody talks about the actual music.
Agreed nobody listens to music anymore, its a dick swinging competition.
I also buy both vinyl and cds according to different reasons such as price or how recent an album (and its mastering) is, for example. I don't really get why people compare the cd to some kind of sh*t quality.. Because it is not! Maybe you can say that to songs on YT, but cd It's still the best way to get music and listen to it in a very good quality for cheap. You can get cds starting from 1€! Can't say the same for vinyls. Also, don't forget that not everyone can afford vinyl and expensive audio systems. But at least they can afford cds and a cd player with a pair of headphones.
Nothing is dying, just changing. There’s a few people doing what you say, but I don’t think that’s killing anything. I’m vinyl collector and lover, but I also enjoy the portability of digital. There’s no fight.
So TRUE!
So what! The audiophile industry madness just means better audio for everyone no matter which source you prefer. I don’t want to listen to a Victrola and thanks to the madness I don’t have to.
This sounds like an amazing concept to me. Thank you for this interview. I hope it becomes reality
Wow..he fixed the presser shortage issue! "Just buy more". Smart.
I see a lot of people quick to disparage this guy's work because it's not purely analog. Let's wait until Mr. Fremer here is able to spend some time with a pressing done using this method, then we can evaluate it based on its actual merits (or lack thereof). Let's stop treating audio as if were religion - we're all smarter than that. Only once I have a chance to hear this technology for myself and also read what my colleagues have to say will I form an opinion on it.
There seems to be a bit of a cargo cult mentality in the audiophile community in general which can be a little disheartening!
Matters of religion, more or less. My audio god is better than your audio god.
Well....audiophile'ing IS a religion.
Cosign error.
I love this idea!
The interviewer sounds rude when he talks about the guy "cutting a positive" and not trying to understand what they guy is saying. Yes, you can make a peak with a laser by cutting out surrounding areas. It's like when you have stone art, and the artist cuts around the parts they want to stick out.
On topic: I wonder if you could use a laser to cut a ceramic record so that it wouldn't wear as fast as a vinyl record. Then maybe have a laser read it to avoid needle inertia changing the sound.
Ooh, the creator does want a laser to read the disk!
This was already invented but was pushed aside due to cost and the same concept being used for this new medium at the time called a CD.
He was kind of a dick in general, like I'm all about improving the old one possible and I think this guy kind a gets upset that technology mixed with the past could create some thing better. Does it matter if we can't hear those frequencies the fact that they even be there is pretty astounding
seems a difficult task to cut a positive V or rounded V with a laser. Dual lasers, one for each channel? Ceramics like alumina (aluminum oxide) are really tough stuff.
This is definitely an OMG moment!
I really hope this goes forward, not only can you make a optimised pivoted arm aligned record, you can optimise that record for a there own specific stylus, I wonder if you could optimise for an elliptical shaped stylus?
A lot of people will have to re-setup the arms, depending on the alignment chosen...
I can see one of the majors getting behind this, with the ultimate deluxe vinyl package of containing there own stylus for that "special play back" ......
Can't wait....
Almost spring 2020, and still nothing! They were supposed to debut last autumn, but there's still no hd vinyl! With the apollo fire, we need this badly!
All you people freaking out that you don't want "digital vinyl" (because the music needs to be digitized before it can be cut with this method) are living under a rock. NEWS FLASH : Almost ALL music recorded today and in recent history has been recorded using digital means. No studio owner or engineer that I know of, other than Steven Albini, advocates for a complete analog recording process to tape (and his argument for doing so isn't even necessarily predicated on the idea it sounds better). Even older albums that are being remastered and released from tape are almost certainly being remastered digitally. So, unless you only ever plan on buying records that were recorded and pressed before the digital era (and if you do, why do you care how modern records are made?), you're ALREADY buying "digital vinyl" and have been for decades.
It's almost like you may as well just get with the times and buy CDs (or digital downloads).
Neil Young records all analog. Fact. He tried digital for many years but gradually went back to analog, and today he makes sure everything is analog no matter what.
Cool. Have fun collecting one dude's recorded output. When he dies, I guess you can stop buying new releases.
Yeah, I am having fun collecting his "output", but he is not alone. He has persuaded several others to follow, and many others dream of being able to do it the all analog way With all 1977 Equipment despite the fact that it is expensive and very non-convenient in 2017. I will stay in tune to those who indeed get albums done all analog and buy them no matter what kind of Music it is. I wish to support a noble and very well sounding cause. Records I buy that have been well taken care of from the 70 sound amazing. The Power is in the grooves. I am often blown away by how great 40 year old records sound.
He is shakin` and shiverin` in effort for the Perfect reply. Whole lotta shakin` going on.
Tough interview but, at least, some of Gunter Loibl's points came through. The interviewer should smoke more weed and do 100% less interviews.
smoke more weed eh? so be more stupid and less skeptical?
As of February 2020, when will the USA see these discs? I want to hear one and try it out.
Innovation like this is always a good thing in my view. The guy is clearly very committed to the project since he's had to secure funding at least twice. I say let's wait to see the results and let our ears be the judge once product becomes available.
This is very interesting. Having past experience in the Advanced Ceramics industry, materials like Aluminum Oxide, Aluminum Nitride or Zirconium Oxide might get considered for the eventual stamper substrate. It would be nice to see REBEAT consider how an analog music source (starting out) potentially could be used as well to drive the laser. As mentioned during the interview, at the end of the day a digital file must be created in order to drive the computer guided laser.
Alan Isaacson : Yeah, I wonder if the technology of the light reading cartridge from DS Audio could be adapted. ( It still uses a stylus. ) ?
Armchair speculation: If you knew the play time you'd be able to calibrate how aggressive the groove spiral is (is that what it's called? No idea). You could then play from analog tape, converting the tape's amplitude & pitch into laser position & amplitude to get an all-analog cut.
What is the update on this? Are they pushing through with this project? Thanks.
any updates on this?
About the process -- and just to be clear:
Is this like laserdisc's ANALOG video? I.e, a laser is used to create a pure analog "groove"? If so, then using a high-quality undigitzed source (tradit. 2-track analog deck) to feed the new HD vinyl laser stamper might be revolutionary.
Almost as revolutionary as digital audio!
Interesting but all concept at this point. We'll have to hear one.
The visitor made a lot of noise in the interview. He should have left the room.
This is fantastic! This reminds me of the digilog tapes. Where they had a normal cassette tape and they used a digital cassette head to reduce hiss and create the best sound possible. I wonder if this would also improve the sound quality of picture vinyl.
All of you naysayers might want to take a pill. It is likely that an analog source could drive the "lathe." But the argument for software is the digital elimination of tracking error, which is a big damn deal.
So you could either have an entirely analog system, complete with radial tracking error, or you could have a digital system without any tracking error. Now consider that since you will be able to dramatically increase tracking force while simultaneously lowering record and stylus wear, and there are clearly some offsetting benefits.
In my business, we deal with digitally-controlled analog processors, and I suppose that it's possible that eventually something like that could be applied here. The audio is a separate, unadulterated track, but it is synched to a digital control track. In REBEAT's system, perhaps there could be digital control of analog processing to add that tracking correction back in.
Someone out there lots smarter than I can work on that!
Surely there's scope to correct for stylus profile too, adapt the groove for the commonest elliptical shape for accurate high-ampitude high-frequency motion. And it makes three-sided discs much easier to cut!
don't forget also elimination of wow & flutter by using digital
This sounds fascinating! Although reading some comments below some are not open to this at all. I for one would love to hear a LP cut with this new tech. I'm not a fan of the GZ pressing plant as the Pallas plant would be a much better choice of quality. Look forward to see the end result.
Sounds good. This process has reasonable chance of actually getting close to CD quality sound on the final product. There is a market in that.
Great show
And what about using photolitography like semiconductors manufacturers and cut the final vynils directly without anything between? and change the PVC disc for something more 21 century like polyetherketone
Amazing! When we can be samples of this vinyl records?
It’s another potential choice. For me I prefer analogue but I do not mind if people prefer a digital cut, but you will lose authenticity of the sound no matter in my opinion. For me though when I saw the Project frames on the wall in the background told me enough to not listen too much but that’s because I am into high end audio.
First off, fuck the digital debate. The interview as I see it centers around this method's ability to preserve the integrity of the pressing process from the beginning of a release to it's end.
The one concern I do have is that if you are using the "HD" stylus to play an "HD" cut according to the graphic shown there is no clearance between the stylus tip and the apex of the groove. Will this cause the effects of deep groove contaminants to increase surface noise, perhaps exponentially? Maybe the best utility is in the knowledge that you are getting a "fresher" pressing even though you are using conventional playback gear.
I do see the opportunity to go back and redo multi channel vinyl properly given the increased bandwidth available. I just don't know where we would place the 5th+.1 channels.
I can't believe it has taken this long to come to fruition. This leaves the remaining analogue gear for analogue use. Even if the quality is the same being able to print 10000 records with no reduction in quality is amazing and 80 db S/N nice. The time it takes to make a stamper the fact that one stamper does what would require 10 in the current process. Brilliant. Digital is not all bad!!!
I have a question, when i'll play a hd vinyl record with 30% extended playing time on my turntable with a current spheric stylus in my cartridge how will that affect my sound quality or my amplitude?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong
Playing a CD utilizes the D/A converter in your CD player....so now matter how well the CD is mastered, quality of the audio is highly dependent on the quality of the DAC of your reciever (if using optical or coaxial digital output) or your CD/DVD/Blu-Ray player (if RCA analog output)
On the other hand, a turntable delivers an analog signal straight from the vinyl itself....so the D/A conversion you hear is straight from the studio...but is degraded during the cutting phase since analog lathes aren't as accurate as lasers. A digital lathe would cut studio master quality grooves into the vinyl...which is at least 24-bit these days. FLAC quality with vinyl "warmth".
Analog Planet Ok, thanks. I'm very interested in seeing how this turn out. It would be a dream come true for me.
Wall Street investors love high-end audio. Ditto for Sand Hill: California/Silicon Valley VC (venture capital) funders.
REBEAL should approach these guys for $$.
You know what I think we really need some R&d money put into from this industry… new disc cutting computers. Think about it, the most advanced ones ever put into use (vms-80/82) are at this point well over 30 years old. Think of how far technology has progressed since the early 1980's. that cutting computer can model the groove excursion based on the preview head signal for every 1/16 of a revolution.
If we could build a cutting computer based on today's technology, model the groove more accurately and frequently so we could pack the groove tighter together without overcutting ... who's to say we couldn't get the same 30% increase in efficiency? Longer sides, greater amplitude, nearly all this is promising but without the stench of BS and without losing the ability to maintain an analog cut from an analog source.
It would mean nice long and loud sides even at 45rpm... even for your classic "long side" albums, think all analog single LP 45rpm Pink Floyd or something to that effect.
G.J.T We should just go back to acoustic recordings on wax cylinders. I don't want those new fangled "electrical" recordings. A lot of information is lost by converting sound waves to electrical impulses, and then back into mechanical energy used to cut the record, and then back into electrical impulses again when the record is played, and then back into mechanical energy when the sound comes out of the speakers.
Its already been done. It's called Pitch 13 and if I remember correctly it updates every 1/32 of a revoluition. Lathes turn slowly and so they don't really wear out.
Mr. Krabs wax cylinders? man the more you talk the more you make yourself ridiculous
Mike Papas interesting, that's news to me. It seems like they've doubled it from 1/16 to 1/32... and I'd love to see a record cut on one of those systems, still, I can't help but imagine it's a very DIY solution, for lack of a better term... If one of the big players put some real money into developing something with today's tech, that could maybe accurately model the groove let's say every 1/128th of a revolution, or maybe even 10 times that... or do whatever had to be done that also allows the laser cut system to achieve such a tight groove spacing and that kind of efficiency. We'd really be onto something. It'd be the biggest breakthrough in analog disc mastering in decades.
Analog Planet if you are referring to my comment, it was in reply to mr krabs ravings about wax cylinders and his crusade against analog.
Haha you make a NEGATIVE of the groove, lasering away where the vinyl will be, leaving material in the shape of the groove.
This is gonna kick ass!!!
I've a linear tracker. Must look out for these vinyls. I hope they will be distinctly labeled at least.
unbelievable ...but totally and completely workable it has been 2 + years .. has this gone forward at all ???
I remember asking you about this last year. Now I get to hear a small bit of it being talked about. although it goes against all that is great about analog sound. This will be interesting to see happen.
I've been waiting for you to cover this story.
What ever happened to that lazer record player that the Japanese made? Always wanted to hear one... they were expensive!
Hey Michael, did you ever hear one?
I'm very hopeful this process comes to fruition
Would my souther linear arm not work withe these ?
What a carry on
Im very curious about the sound this new methid can produce. If they can make vinyl sound better that would be cool
Incredibly interesting.
Interesting concept. I've owned digital vinyl since Ry Cooder's "Bop Till You Drop" LP and I've lived to tell about it. As far as I know, the world is still turning. Mikey, the way I understand it, the laser will cut away the ceramic (or whatever material they decide upon) where the signal isn't and "leave" the ridge that carries/contains the signal. Pls let us know when they send you a test pressing. :)
So... maybe looks that is made from digital source but Hi-Res audio is not step down in sound quality if we copy that digital sound with laws on analog reproduction with stylus. In that case maybe most sound engineer might understand how to make the right mastering. Stylus have physical limitations that must be respected for correct sound. Nice, we finally come back to right mastering.
I don't understand what is new... If you record your guitar into music production software the analogue wave is analysed by the processor and recorded into binary so that it can be stored as data. When you play back your recording the data goes back through a converter which decides where the voltage of the waveform should be and then puts it out the same way it went in... Using this method you are just changing WHERE the conversion is done. It's still susceptible to dirt and damage just like a CD.
Analog Planet Exactly, why not just get your data from flash memory or a hard drive? Why put it on a disc and use a mechanical pick up that is custom made for the single purpose of music reproduction? If it goes wrong it goes to a factory in the midlands where you wait for weeks/months to have it fixed... I do not see the appeal at all. Especially with the important components exposed like in a conventional analogue system. More stuff to go wrong and more specialised componentry and more specialised servicing. Nomatter how this technology moves forward, it will be unnecessarily expensive
I saw an Ace Freheley interview where he said it is so simple to make a record today With pro-Tools. It sounds a lot better With analog, but With how easy protools is to fix a mistake most People do it that way. The final produc will sound far from as good as an all out analog Product, but the time, blood, tears and sweat saved makes it easy for me to choosepro-tools. I recorded all analog for 20 years andthere is no question it is superior, but it cn make you pull Your hairs out With the time and accurate nature Things need to be delivered. No delete or step back 23 Seconds. You get it right or you do not get it t all. With pro-Tools all can be fixed, but the amazing analog sound is missing.
Imagine: the combination of a hd analog signal with a touchless optical tracking device. Printed on a polycarbonate disc, securely placed inside of a rectangular box using a little drawer providing a higher signal output. It would be very compact, so you could call it, let' s say : compact disc?
No? The very point is an analog signal, substituting the mechano-electrical conversion of conventional cartridges with an optical-electrical conversion could be real progress.
Christian Goergen aka AstraOovier The first time I heard of this technology was in the 80’s. I was working in high end audio at the time and saw a prototype at CES once, but did not hear it actually play. This company claims to be producing a finished product, but strangely, I’ve never seen it reviewed. Maybe more vapor ware than reality? Interesting to know the concept is still around though.
A company called ELP has made a turntable that plays vinyl LPs with a laser. Michael reviewed it a while back.
Maybe they'll release a new version of that video vinyl format.
I see this as a win-win situation for those of us who aren't extreme analog fanatics. If you accept the fact that digital recording is technically superior to analog recording regardless how you personally feel about the sound of it, you should be exited about this as a vinyl fan. This would be the first time we get to hear a true hi-res studio quality copy without having to worry about a consumer grade DAC adding it's signature to it.
I'm interested in hearing the results of HD vinyl played back with a $20-$30 cartridge with a conical tip. I imagine it being similar to traditional vinyl played back with a hyper eliptical or maybe even a vivid line or Shibata. Hell, if you truly want warmth, you possibly get a pleasing sound out of a ceramic cartridge. This whole HD vinyl concept could make it dramatically cheaper to get your desired sound from your turntable. It could also make buying album on vinyl much cheaper since most albums would be able to fit on one disc.
I'm not seeing a whole lot of negatives here.
I like this guy, Gunter.The reality is that not all vinyl records stamped "back in the day" were good sounding records. Some of the new vinyl being released today is remarkable. So it seems logical that a high quality analog source could be derived from a very high level digital master.
Ceramic can stand up to even, consistent pressure. Yes, it can also shatter. Let's cut down on the incredulity. (Also noted when talking about how most records use digital delay lines... and Vinyl lovers still love the vinyl.)
This is an important move, because the older "cutting masterers" are not teaching their craft to the younger people! That's a big problem for the future of vinyl LP's! I'd rather it stay ALL analogue, but "hi res dsd" is close , and it will insure the business will go on!
Where can I find more info regarding the current Master Cutters not wanting to pass on their supposed secret craft?
Hmm .. waaait a minute: suppose that .. maybe, just maybe, we could build a half-way decent digital to analog converter, like the ones we use on the way from digital masters to stampers .. then we could skip the computational modelling and laser etching of stamper surfaces, with their staircase walls and rounding errors, and make a duplication master directly, identical to the digital master itself (maybe with some added bits to prevent read errors and such) !! Why, if the bits were small enough, we could even stamp out direct copies of the master on small discs, smaller than an LP ... ... If the master was analog tape, we might even use DSD, and call the disc .. hmmm, Super Audio LP, or something .. i got it, SACD, because the disc could be veeery small, even compact ..
DamjanB52 Yes... yes and maybe instead of being read with a stylus, these small discs could be read with a laser, that way the information on the disc won't degrade over time through mechanical contact.
Mr. Krabs wow why we didn't think about that before??? you are a genius indeed
A laser, you say, Mr. Krabs? True, no mechanical contact, but a laser would burn holes in the disc, right? Unless ..
unless it was turned off .. Hmm, right, laser off, so .. Aha, you could then make it veery small, lightweight, and just drag it gently over the bumps and pits, registering its vibrations (vertical groove modulation). Why, if you could control its speed, you might even eliminate inner groove distortion .. Laser, right, why did't i think of that ..
DamjanB52 But wait, since the information on these "compact discs" would be digitally encoded, inner groove distortion won't even be a problem. Omg you're a genius!
Wondrous things you envision, Mr. Krabs, these "compact discs" of which you speak .. But apart from non-distructive playback, absence of noise and distortion, playing time, channel separation, ... what could these discs ever do for us?
I don't think Gunter understood MIchael's sense of humor. Language barriers I guess.
He comes across as being very typical American and sounds obnoxious.
@@JamesT65 you'd be surprised that Americans are actually rated highly as tourists compared to many Europeans.
I don't think he likes him. lol
There is such a thing as interview technique
I am looking forward to the first release.
For Pete’s sake Michael: Stop interrupting people when they are explaining something! I know you have to guide your interview, but I found it extremely rude not waiting until he finishes his sentence and then you can start asking. In general, Germans are very respectful in that matter, and it’s perceived negatively when you interrupt people abruptly like that. Just a friendly recommendation
Kudos for applying modern manufacturing techniques to push the envelope further.
However, I do have my reservations about the theoretical advantages because, as pointed out in another video about loudspeakers (Mr Linkwitz), Ears and Eyes work in different ways so perfect graphs don't necessarily equate to perfect audio.
I can't wait to hear the results and am optimistic.
I emailed Günter about the würst flaw in vinyl which is off centre pressings and he said it is the responsibility of the pressing plant.
Ahem!!! HD or not, it is a bag of balls if the piano is wonky. Scuse the crassness ;)
A real quantum leap in vinyl (If we can send people to the moon) would be to actually centre both sides A and B of the stampers in the pressing plant.
Am I asking a lot???
Why not 3 D print the stamper out of Titanium?
this already existed in the 70's, the Trinitron discs by pr. Rabe. Most of them were classical music records. Almost the same system as presented here.
Imagine if you will, a world where scanners are of such a high resolution that the most pristine and lush sounding analog-sourced vinyl could be scanned, groove perfect, and have those scans used to make copies using this laser cutter. You could take only the best presses and then replicate the exact grooves from those sources.
So the often good analogue recordings will be digitalized as an extra step, and then replayed on an analogue player. Isn't it just better and cheaper to campaign for another new
troublesome digital media?
Blu-ray audio vs SACD.
Isn't vinyl already HD? Lossless analog audio with no digital alterations?
No almost everything is made from digital files now. Vinyl just adds the nostalgic hiss and harmonic distortions and equipment bias to give the classic vinyl ''analog'' sound.
Being HD and ''lossless'' is a myth since it has physical limitations.
with less detail and dynamics and added colorations compared to hi rez digital
mostly only old records are from 100% analog process
Is there a way to know which new records are analog and which ones aren't?
OK, thank you for your answer, Michael!
how's finally the status of them ?
have they found the funding ?...
Excellent mic, Mike.
Did this ever happen?
I'm pretty sure vinyl is mastered just fine, even modern day LP's have a ton more dynamics in CD and digital download versions.
It is extremely easy to make generalizations about things people know very little about. I am sure some people feel confident making judgments on subjects they know nothing about
The best remains direct-to-disc. No tape machine, no AD converter. Just the cutting lathe and a lacquer disc (or a metal disc - DMM).That was how 78's were made back in the Twenties, Thirties and Forties! There is a purity of sound locked in those old 78's that digital processing still cannot capture! And the microgroove era from the late Forties to the late Seventies offered great fidelity at a low cost to the average music lover! And it all went downhill in '82 with the arrival of the CD and recording studios discarding their great-sounding 30 ips Ampex and Studer RTR's for the convenience of digital processing and mixing. NOT GOOD! Remember, the fewer things done to the mike signal the more truer to reality the final result. This touted "advancement" seems like another bandaid for digital processing. A well-made all analog LP will always sound better than one made from a digital source. I know this from personal experience after listening to the first digital-sourced LP's (Denon and Telarc) back in '78. Doug Sax's Sheffields beat them all! Keep the LP all analog!
Robert Jermantowicz and so does the the San Fransico Ltd. Direct to Disc 45rpm album.. It sounds amazing!
78s are garbage, the only pure sound is to be found on Edison cylinders.
Jack White records bands that play at his venue in Nashville straight to acetate. As for 78's sounding bad, often it was just one mic in a room and one take. Along with being played on primitive equipment having the equivalent of a nail for a stylus. So much of the beautiful recordings were never heard because of this.
No to AD conversion. No matter how high res . :)
Jeezus let him speak!!!
Certainly nice concept.
All matter has/is made with light - all you need is proper lightwave modulation to release the whole spectrum and then the idea of analog vs digital is a moot point - FULL SPECTRUM DOMINATION!
what is the point, what possible advantage could ever be gained from this convoluted process
how could the end result ever sound better than the digital source file you start with, why bother
So, the key to making vinyl more feasible is to go digital?
What's the point of playing a digital LP?
lorem ipsum there ain't any point. Beside that the digital to analog conversation has happened in the plant. And the record industry have the whole control over the digital domain (when it comes to vinyl) So then you can not do a perfect bit to bit copy..
Got an article about this you can point me to you might have in mind? Also, what do you think of DMM mastering?
Analog Planet sorry to not be so clear. of course the DA conversation is not "done in the plant". The thing I was trying to say that the DA conversation is done PRIOR it gets into consumers hands (what already is happening today anyway).
In contrast to digital download, CD and such there the consumer has its own DA converter.
And there are a wide selection of DA converters.
So it is only a preference of where you want the conversation to happen.
If you make the DA conversion then you will be able to get better sound each time in the future you buying a new converter. There are continues improvement.
But if you have bought this type of digital vinyl then the DA is done with equipment from 2017. And in 2037 there have come better sonically DA converters! But your DA conversion in your vinyl are stuck in 2017..
It is like your CD sounds better now then you bought them in the 80-ies. Because of the hardware improvements.
Analog Planet yes and of course there will be a point in time in the future there consumer D/A convertor will be superior than they have today in the industry.
The history repeats itself like with the CD records from the past. Today they are "10 times" better sonically than they where produced in 1980 and onwards.
LPs are already "digital" if that's what you mean. Unless you own a first pressing (not after 1985 or so because of the CD introduction) of a record or a late reissue that uses the original analog masters, you're 100% listening to a digitally sourced vinyl. That's over 90% of the cases when it comes to reissues and new albums in general.
What happened to this?
I was working in high end audio at the time and saw a prototype of a laser “turntable” from a company called Finial Technology (I think) at CES once, but did not hear it actually play. This company claims to be producing a finished product, but strangely, I’ve never seen it reviewed. Maybe more vapor ware than reality? Interesting to know the concept is still around though. Here’s a link.... www.elpj.com
" This is a right direction to go for vinyl ..for the future!
del..
I think you'll find it difficult to grasp how he makes the stamper it works by burning away the low parts and leaving a ridge. titanium would be a good material for this or maybe Chromium, all the best material would be tungsten, or artificial forgotten the name of hand the hardest man made even harder then diamond they make flasks to manufactured diamonds foam it in the UK. you called it cutting ? it's not cutting the stamper it is forming a stamper no cutting is involved. It works by forcing the material away you're not taking any material off. can be done by cutting into material this is a cheap and not very good quality would not be used in mass production.
Use multiple beams, at different angles. CDplayers often used three beams ... and the laser turntable also uses multiple beams (5??)
Fascinating! if only the sampling rate could be multiples faster to the equivalent of analog. (much faster than 192 mHz) Analog is quantized on the quantum level. Everything is in the known Universe, in case anyone would like to know!
Every fabric of your being is quantized, digital mind, digital heart, digital vinyl! don't deny it! haha!
key phrase "at the quantum level" when we get that small, smooth motion is in "stair steps" sadly even vinyl is.
We need to see analog sound pressed on hd vinyl,not digital
Analog Planet thats why we will keep on searching for the perfect vinyl pressings till the end of time!!!
What's an analogue file
The one the wife uses on her nails.
Do you mean 100% virgin vinyl, or 180gram or 200gram?
h0ll0wm9n if you watched the video he said they will press music to hd vinyls...new material
Have we heard how far this project has gone?
Sounds promising but the "proposed" technology may potentially exterminate the analog recording method since he mentioned that 95% of the recording now are done digitally. Even on vinyls. And then I'm no longer excited.
Why could this technology exterminate the analog recording process? Sadly it's already happing, and it's been happening since the mid 1980s because of the CD. Almost no new records are recored analogically and this technology is not about going against analog, it's about improving the digitally sourced vinyl records which already represent the majority of the records, both new and reissues. I also have to note that in many cases a "digital" vinyl record doesn't sound bad because of it being digital, but because of the loudness war which also affects CDs negatively. That is what is killing the overall sound quality of both new and old music. In fact, most albums when getting reissued often get "remastered" as well meaning they increased the loudness by cutting off frequencies thus restricting the dynamic range of the original recording. Sad but true.
Why Nil? Why Not?
thanks for a great video as usual. Personally, vinyl is an analogue medium for me - I really don't see the point of cutting vinyl from a digital signal or in any way which makes it a non analogue experience. Sorry.
Interviewer thinks because it's digital, it has to be inferior... Dude, calculate the size of the needle point and how many times you can place it over the distance a record travels in a second. Can you fit 44,100 needle heads in that space? What about cutting the record, can you etch in a waveform that has a frequency of 200khz? Because with digital you can use TTA, "True Audio" codec and get 64 bit word length and 4Ghz (4,000,000,000) sampling rate. Or you cold develop a codec that goes up into terahertz and be more precise than an atom. Trust me, it's not "digital" that is the the bottleneck. There's nothing magical about digital vs analogue except that one isn't as accurate and has more distortion.
(You can test the distortion or fidelity of almost anything by copying things through it... Print a piece of paper, scan it, print it again, repeat 1000x, then compare with the same scanner and another printer, and the same printer and another scanner. You'll have an idea of the relative fidelity of each system. My prediction would be that digital is one or more orders of magnitude more capable of maintaining fidelity of 90% or more when it comes to extraneous noise which would soon overdevelop on vinyl being cut, played back, and the line output of that re-cut.)
What market are they going after? Something can be technically competent but economically not feasible. The demographic that is both ok with digital in their vinyl and is willing to spend big $$$ on vinyl playback seems quite small. If you read through comments it is either "get this digital out of my analog" or "digital is perfect". Regardless of your chosen flavor of audio, neither of these camps are in the demographic that would buy this product. It will be interesting to see who, if anybody will buy these pressings.
I don't think he is going for any market represented in this forum. With a focus on 10,000 original pressings I think he is going after the new popular market that is probably driving the increase in vinyl sales as oppose to us audiophiles who have been steadily buying over the years but we have small numbers. I am very interested in new approaches to press vinyl that may increase sound quality. I listen to a broad range of music and good some vinyl pressings sound great while bad ones sound awful. I have to say the same for my digital collection. I no longer believe its just the medium particularly as I have experimented with different DAC chips and even recorded vinyl with A-D convertors. I always seem to be able to create recordings that are more musical and more vinyl sounding than buying the same recording as a CD. How can that be if it's the medium. Look forward to hearing a vinyl record produced from this process. Then we can give our opinion on the resulting sound which for me is what matters.
We already have a medium that can be recorded with a laser. Compact Disc. Why not "burn" analog information to it and read it back with a laser? Tracking information can be multiplexed.
I still like the DAT format and the sound.
Michael, are they any closer to making this a reality?
It has been recently confirmed and the first HD vinyl record will be coming out in 2019.
Your bias is showing here. Make them 45 rpm and encode them with DBX noise reduction.
Sounds good. And to all the people who say it's " digital " I have news for you : 90% of the pressings these days are from digital sources. Also I gonna be honest I buy LPs every now and then because it looks cool, and it also feels cool. It's a good experience buying an album, taking it out of the sleeve and putting it on a turntable. It's not about the " analog " sound for me. Most of you people listen to music on vinyl for these reasons as well, you just won't admit it and pretend that it sounds superior to digital files while it really does not. like at all.
This "sounds" very interesting. I have 2 high tech sound measuring devices I will use to test the sound once one of these is available. My left ear and my right ear. Nothing else matters. 😝
I'm prepared to buck the trend here....I'll wait and hear an HD vinyl before forming an actual opinion. My main concern is that most bands/artists can't even write a good tune to begin with, and therefore even a great pressing just glorifies a turd.
Brilliant!!
If I miss the race to the patent office, perhaps I'll be first to coin the phrase ... Vi-Res.
Quick Google:
1. There's an Artist of that name, if not intended meaning, on Bandcamp.
2. The Latin meaning of "vires" is 'powers' which is quite apt. As in Ultra Vires - beyond the powers as detailed in a law.
Obviously they plan to carve slaves. I hope they do, so they avoid three copying steps. Which would be the first album to produce? New challenges for the cartridge industry. 100 khz needs the next generation of cantilevers. What about better vinyl formulas? Clean room technique, similar to cd manufacturing? Audiophile niche or mass market? Stay tuned!