That round workpiece center finder is slick! Never seen that before. Also never seen lining up the cutter tips with the opposite side of the flat before idea. Never too old to learn.
Lol , man thats the goal i think . Always learning and trying to get better . I love YT for that i get lots of awsome people like you that suggest new ideas ( edge finding off large diameter shafts )
I’ve recently started learning my way around a mill. I’ve used a lathe for a while and have some decent basic skills there. I got a 3 piece edge finder with my mill and have never seen anyone use it like you just did. With no one to mentor me, that was a huge ‘Ah-Ha!’ moment for me. Thanks for sharing that - you just got another subscriber!!
I’m a retired tool and mold maker of 40 plus years. I’ve got to say that the paper methods with a live spindle would get you a written warning at the shop I started in. We did however occasionally use a feeler gage and manually turned spindle to get a touch. The only other thing I take exception with is your edge finding the moving jaw side. I’ve always been trained and passed on that in most circumstances you edge find the fixed jaw side. I also prefer to use the edge finder in a collet,i find it’s more accurate. To find the center of a diameter you should edge find in one direction then the other and repeat it as you will not be spot on with the first try. Happy machining!
On a very large diameter shaft, the tapered end of the edgefinder can be used to touch of the side of the stock at any height above center where it can. Set a 0 there and then move to the other side of the shaft AT THE SAME HEIGHT and touch the shaft again. You can then move halfway back along the length of the chord of the shaft. This will only work if you touch at the same height on each side (making a chord parallel to the axis of travel), but it's a great way to find the center when you cant reach the diameter.
I teach the paper trick with my new students, who are totally green, BUT i use a bit of spit and stick a postage sized piece to the jaw. Plus I hand spin the cutter with it in nuetral. Personally I run the cutter but thats not a good idea with first timers. The accuracy could be questioned versus more sophisticated special tools but they may not always be available wheras paper is always there. Great video, going to let the students watch it next lesson to show all the other ways you used.
In the 60's when I started, we put a 1/2 dowel in the spinning chuck. Coated it with the good old "red grease pencil" ( the kind where you pull the string to access more tip. Kept in shirt pocket right next to 6" scale). You slowly touch side of part with spinning dowel. When red wax appears on surface, you're 1/4" away from edge of workpiece.
The paper method on the side is what I was taught in school many moons ago, and it works fine, but the spindle should not be running when touching an endmill on the top of a piece. If using a flycutter, have the spindle in neutral and use a feeler strip on both top and side.
Great imput , what are your thoughts on using cutting oil to hold the strip on the side of the work instead of holding it with your fingers ? Change in thickness enough .
@@Wrighmachining We always used our fingers, and I still have 10 LOL. Using moisture will make the paper stick more than it should, and it's hard to tell when it actually touches. It cans tart shaving the paper rather than cutting and pulling it.
@@Wrighmachining btw, I just found your site earlier today, subscribed right away. If you don't mind me asking, where in Canada are you? Nova Scotia here.
My quick go-to way is to chuck up a centre drill or other short true-running shank and advance it to the edge until I can no longer see light between it. The change is sudden. The paper method I was taught was wet a bit of newspaper and stick it on, wait for the mill to grab it.
For the z, dont turn the spindle on. Just lower till it grips your feeler gauge or paper. Or spin it counter clockwise by hand until it barely scores the surface
I like this meathod as well , i just recently have been trying with the oil on sigarett paper as well . The oil holds the paper on the side of the work and keeps my fingers out of the mix . Then feed it while running into tge work and poof . As soon as you are with in the thickness of the paper it pulls it off the side of the work and you zero your dro . Love the imput thank you
@ thats cool never thought of that but would oil add thickness or space between the paper and material surface? Probably not much but you know how machinists are lol
For paper touch off, use a Zig-Zag with a little oil to hold it in place. Works like a champ. The Zig-Zags in the white pack are 0.001" thick quite consistently.
For finding the edge with an end mill I measure the paper thickness and then I manually rotate the spindle. When the cutting edge gets close I start moving the paper back and forth till it barely touches. Note the location and check all the flutes for runout, move over the paper thickness and I routinely get the edge within less than 0.0005”.
Thank you for your impute . I have started puting a little oil on the paper so it sticks and feeding it in while its running . This keeps the fingers away and me safer ;)
I put a 4mm dowel in the collet, colour it with a dark Sharpie then move it towards the edge whilst it’s running until the ink starts to wear off, zero it on the DRO, lift it up and move it a further 2mm and zero it again so my centre is above the edge. Seems to be accurate to 0.01mm.
When I'm in a hurry, I mount a center drill in the chuck, and dial the Y until I'm pretty sure I'm close to the center. Then start the mill, and sneak feed down the Z until I barely touch the work, then move the Y back and forth until the center drill mills a short line on the part. Then I can move to the center of that milled line.
As long as you are the person who is aware of the safety risks then it is only your fault but just turning spindle by hand against a known diameter of a pin or a certain gauge block would be a better way than the paper trick as not all paper is always a constant thickness all the time love the videos
Yes I guess it does come down to personal comfort. I am trying other techniques. One of the techniques that I'm doing is the cigarette paper with oil on it on the work and then moving the End Mill in slowly while it's running but that's just me I live on the edge -
For round stock balance a small ruler using fingers on the top and gently feed down a small bit in a collet until it touches the ruler. The ruler will tip in the direction towards which the bed has to be moved to find centre. Once bang on the ruler will be level. This can be very accurate.
Some random comments for newer folks: The paper techniques with the spindle running are highly discouraged (in many workplaces banned) because the risk far outweigh any benefits; if they even exist. For anyone learning do yourself a favor and turn the spindle OFF. If you have no access to proper XY location tools: use a marker/dykem and rotate the tool by hand grabbing the tool holder. Move in slowly and stop when you just scratch the paint. Make diameter adjustments as needed and wipe/scotchbrite the paint off as required. For the Z-axis set the tool slightly lower than a reference object (gauge block/pin, 123 block, dowel pin, etc) and raise the Z-slowly until the reference object slides completely under; zero Z and adjust for reference object. Both techniques can get within tenths without the risks... Also regarding electronic edgefinders: operation with the spindle off may affect accuracy by way of runout. If your electronic edgefinder does not support spindle on operation, rotate it by hand (please consult each tools manual for proper operation and rpm limitations).
That is a good tip John. I will remember this. My go to thing I use alot for finding the side edge is I took a 1/2" piece of ground drill rod that I milled off exactly .250. then I move it slowly into the work piece until I feel no wobble. It's been good enough for keyways.👍
For many years I just used a 1/4" piece of silver steel in a drill chuck.....OK so it probably will not be that accurate but good enough and quick for most work.
Look in the scheme of most jobs. Touching the side or top of the job with endmill is fine. Worked as a maintenance fitter machinist in a toolroom with 8 toolmakers and most just touched the side of job with endmill. I guess experience and a fine touch helps. Note: most jobs
@@Wrighmachining Place the paper between the dowel pin (dowel pin is not spinning) and the workpiece surface (side or top) and slowly advance the workpiece while moving the paper side to side until the paper is gripped between the dowel pin and the workpiece. Subtract 0.25 plus the thickness of the paper.
@@philcook9967 yes in a colit ! I can see how that would work . Thank you i will try that perhaps with a small conecting rod ( new ) that is .500 im sure of it .
One thing I like doing for small to medium shafts. Is to use the pointed end of the edge finder. Be sure the quill thumb wheels are locked. Do both side and divide by 2. Also, rather than using thick paper and fingers near rotating cutters. Lick and stick cigarette paper to your work piece. For the top of flat work piece when doing light cuts. Extend quill until cutter touches workpiece, lock quill. Drop table .001 or .002. Or cigarette paper. Black Markers are you friend.
Mention should be made of how true the drill chuck holds the edge finder and how square the head is set up as the latter will affect ctr at different positions of quill
They make an edge finder where the end piece is 0.5" instead of 0.2" so it can find the edge of any diameter rod (just remember to subtract 0.25 and not 0.1)
Yes thank you . that would be a more robust tool for sure , but i am but a simple man lol . The .100 leaves less for me to mess up when it comes to math
Great question, I looked up its official name on Amazon and it's listed as this Fowler 52-577-100 Center Finder with Satin Chrome Finish, 0.375" Mounting Shank 10
You never showed a dial gauge to find centre for a hole or shaft or bar stock. Without a dro I set the dial gauge minus .100 thou for a .200 thou edge finder (wobbler in the uk) Then advance the .100 thou and you are ready to pitch off.. Started my apprenticeship in 1977
@@Wrighmachining It is a point of what the toolmakers taught me. We used cigarette paper in a pocket operation so would blow the pocket dry tear a piece off damp it and when it picked up you were .002" from the work.
@@Wrighmachining If run at the recommended speed of 1000 it will off center itself from vibration and centrifugal force. Besides , you can easily see when it is within .050" or better even without the wobble. I use them so much, that that extra step which has no function would drive me nuts. It's fine if you like to do it but I'd say it is not right to show it as if it needs to be done, for the nubies sakes.
Good informative video, but check your audio. There is a low frequency hum that keeps coming in when your doing things. It’s real annoying on headphones or ear buds.
my edge finder is awaiting repair. mmmm... forgot to change into low... wobbler to the rescue. i guess if i dug out teh old touch probe its battery will have died...
That round workpiece center finder is slick! Never seen that before.
Also never seen lining up the cutter tips with the opposite side of the flat before idea.
Never too old to learn.
Lol , man thats the goal i think . Always learning and trying to get better . I love YT for that i get lots of awsome people like you that suggest new ideas ( edge finding off large diameter shafts )
I’ve recently started learning my way around a mill. I’ve used a lathe for a while and have some decent basic skills there. I got a 3 piece edge finder with my mill and have never seen anyone use it like you just did. With no one to mentor me, that was a huge ‘Ah-Ha!’ moment for me. Thanks for sharing that - you just got another subscriber!!
Russell great to hear you have a mill. It's crazey the possibility it opens up. Glad the video helped.
Have fun and stay safe
I’m a retired tool and mold maker of 40 plus years. I’ve got to say that the paper methods with a live spindle would get you a written warning at the shop I started in. We did however occasionally use a feeler gage and manually turned spindle to get a touch. The only other thing I take exception with is your edge finding the moving jaw side. I’ve always been trained and passed on that in most circumstances you edge find the fixed jaw side. I also prefer to use the edge finder in a collet,i find it’s more accurate. To find the center of a diameter you should edge find in one direction then the other and repeat it as you will not be spot on with the first try. Happy machining!
All good wisdom , thank you alan !
Damn got the spindle running with the paper method 🤯🤯
Lol, yup paying close attention to the fingers so they are not stuck in there :)
7:47 user opts for tattooed finger ring, genius! Thanks for your work on your channel.
Your welcome, yes the ring tatoo was the best desision i ever made im sure i would have lost the ribg 10 tines by now and 2 of those on the lathe :)
@@Wrighmachining or worse, a finger(s), hence the genius in it :)
On a very large diameter shaft, the tapered end of the edgefinder can be used to touch of the side of the stock at any height above center where it can. Set a 0 there and then move to the other side of the shaft AT THE SAME HEIGHT and touch the shaft again. You can then move halfway back along the length of the chord of the shaft. This will only work if you touch at the same height on each side (making a chord parallel to the axis of travel), but it's a great way to find the center when you cant reach the diameter.
YES ! , I had not thought of this but should work . I will add that to my arsinal of ideas and when the project needs it i will use it . Thank you
You are on the cutting edge of centering. Thanks for the video keep on keeping on.
Thank you ARW! Glad you enjoyed it :)
I teach the paper trick with my new students, who are totally green, BUT i use a bit of spit and stick a postage sized piece to the jaw. Plus I hand spin the cutter with it in nuetral. Personally I run the cutter but thats not a good idea with first timers. The accuracy could be questioned versus more sophisticated special tools but they may not always be available wheras paper is always there.
Great video, going to let the students watch it next lesson to show all the other ways you used.
Hey robert i love the wet paper idea , way safer for sure !! Thanks for the sugestion .
In the 60's when I started, we put a 1/2 dowel in the spinning chuck. Coated it with the good old "red grease pencil" ( the kind where you pull the string to access more tip. Kept in shirt pocket right next to 6" scale).
You slowly touch side of part with spinning dowel. When red wax appears on surface, you're 1/4" away from edge of workpiece.
The red grease pencil is a good idea , so when the red starts disapearing on the dowel and onto the part . Presto :)
Super useful! Thanks!
Glad it helped .:-)
The paper method on the side is what I was taught in school many moons ago, and it works fine, but the spindle should not be running when touching an endmill on the top of a piece.
If using a flycutter, have the spindle in neutral and use a feeler strip on both top and side.
Great imput , what are your thoughts on using cutting oil to hold the strip on the side of the work instead of holding it with your fingers ? Change in thickness enough .
@@Wrighmachining We always used our fingers, and I still have 10 LOL. Using moisture will make the paper stick more than it should, and it's hard to tell when it actually touches. It cans tart shaving the paper rather than cutting and pulling it.
@@Wrighmachining btw, I just found your site earlier today, subscribed right away.
If you don't mind me asking, where in Canada are you? Nova Scotia here.
My quick go-to way is to chuck up a centre drill or other short true-running shank and advance it to the edge until I can no longer see light between it. The change is sudden. The paper method I was taught was wet a bit of newspaper and stick it on, wait for the mill to grab it.
I like the wet the paper idea!!. Way safer than the fingers in there :)
For the z, dont turn the spindle on. Just lower till it grips your feeler gauge or paper. Or spin it counter clockwise by hand until it barely scores the surface
I like this meathod as well , i just recently have been trying with the oil on sigarett paper as well . The oil holds the paper on the side of the work and keeps my fingers out of the mix . Then feed it while running into tge work and poof . As soon as you are with in the thickness of the paper it pulls it off the side of the work and you zero your dro . Love the imput thank you
@ thats cool never thought of that but would oil add thickness or space between the paper and material surface? Probably not much but you know how machinists are lol
For paper touch off, use a Zig-Zag with a little oil to hold it in place. Works like a champ. The Zig-Zags in the white pack are 0.001" thick quite consistently.
👍
What is a zig zag mate?
@@jaydengiddins174 "cigarette" rolling paper ;-)
@@jaydengiddins174 Cigarette paper
For finding the edge with an end mill I measure the paper thickness and then I manually rotate the spindle. When the cutting edge gets close I start moving the paper back and forth till it barely touches. Note the location and check all the flutes for runout, move over the paper thickness and I routinely get the edge within less than 0.0005”.
Thank you for your impute . I have started puting a little oil on the paper so it sticks and feeding it in while its running . This keeps the fingers away and me safer ;)
Great tips , and solid techniques for edge and center finding . 👌
Glad you enjoyed it, I'm sure there is more but gives a small snap shot of a few :)
Very helpful thank you
I put a 4mm dowel in the collet, colour it with a dark Sharpie then move it towards the edge whilst it’s running until the ink starts to wear off, zero it on the DRO, lift it up and move it a further 2mm and zero it again so my centre is above the edge. Seems to be accurate to 0.01mm.
Thanks for your input I think I'll try this
Thanks, I am new to machining and this helped! Thumbs up and subscribed.
Glad it helped Steve !
When I'm in a hurry, I mount a center drill in the chuck, and dial the Y until I'm pretty sure I'm close to the center. Then start the mill, and sneak feed down the Z until I barely touch the work, then move the Y back and forth until the center drill mills a short line on the part. Then I can move to the center of that milled line.
I do this in a pinch for grease holes etc, works well!
As long as you are the person who is aware of the safety risks then it is only your fault but just turning spindle by hand against a known diameter of a pin or a certain gauge block would be a better way than the paper trick as not all paper is always a constant thickness all the time love the videos
Yes I guess it does come down to personal comfort. I am trying other techniques. One of the techniques that I'm doing is the cigarette paper with oil on it on the work and then moving the End Mill in slowly while it's running but that's just me I live on the edge -
Great info, thanks
Glad you enjoyed it :)
For round stock balance a small ruler using fingers on the top and gently feed down a small bit in a collet until it touches the ruler. The ruler will tip in the direction towards which the bed has to be moved to find centre. Once bang on the ruler will be level. This can be very accurate.
Thank you mbak, great suggesting
We used a cigarette paper and stuck it to the work with a bit of water ( or spit 😉 ). Probably a little bit safer than holding the paper.
Great point :)
I use cutting oil, cigarette paper is 0.001 too👍
That's what i do. Got the idea out of a 70 year old book
Can you show some methods finding the center from each side without a dro.
;) i bet you have a video on that just checked out yoir channel and subbed !
Engineering hacks and tricks - channel ;)
@@Wrighmachiningthanks for the comment. Please feel free to use any of the methods if you make a follow up.
Couldn't you make an adapter for electric edge finder to fit one of the collets you do have?
Yes but it may intorduce a litle error . Since the video kbc gave me a metric collet that fits perfect
Some random comments for newer folks:
The paper techniques with the spindle running are highly discouraged (in many workplaces banned) because the risk far outweigh any benefits; if they even exist. For anyone learning do yourself a favor and turn the spindle OFF. If you have no access to proper XY location tools: use a marker/dykem and rotate the tool by hand grabbing the tool holder. Move in slowly and stop when you just scratch the paint. Make diameter adjustments as needed and wipe/scotchbrite the paint off as required. For the Z-axis set the tool slightly lower than a reference object (gauge block/pin, 123 block, dowel pin, etc) and raise the Z-slowly until the reference object slides completely under; zero Z and adjust for reference object. Both techniques can get within tenths without the risks... Also regarding electronic edgefinders: operation with the spindle off may affect accuracy by way of runout. If your electronic edgefinder does not support spindle on operation, rotate it by hand (please consult each tools manual for proper operation and rpm limitations).
John you raise some very good points to consider for us all . Thank you for weighing in.
That is a good tip John. I will remember this. My go to thing I use alot for finding the side edge is I took a 1/2" piece of ground drill rod that I milled off exactly .250. then I move it slowly into the work piece until I feel no wobble. It's been good enough for keyways.👍
4 holes black center edge finger video
🤙
For many years I just used a 1/4" piece of silver steel in a drill chuck.....OK so it probably will not be that accurate but good enough and quick for most work.
If it works dont change it !!!
Look in the scheme of most jobs. Touching the side or top of the job with endmill is fine. Worked as a maintenance fitter machinist in a toolroom with 8 toolmakers and most just touched the side of job with endmill. I guess experience and a fine touch helps. Note: most jobs
Thank you jay, well said.
When using the paper, wouldn't it be safer to use a 1/2" dowel pin instead of an end mill? Also the dowel pin wouldn't damage the work piece.
Can you elaborate?
@@Wrighmachining Place the paper between the dowel pin (dowel pin is not spinning) and the workpiece surface (side or top) and slowly advance the workpiece while moving the paper side to side until the paper is gripped between the dowel pin and the workpiece. Subtract 0.25 plus the thickness of the paper.
@@philcook9967 yes in a colit ! I can see how that would work . Thank you i will try that perhaps with a small conecting rod ( new ) that is .500 im sure of it .
Great info Thanks :)
Your welcome gregh
I tried these methods and now I am always on edge
Glad it helped !!
One thing I like doing for small to medium shafts. Is to use the pointed end of the edge finder. Be sure the quill thumb wheels are locked. Do both side and divide by 2. Also, rather than using thick paper and fingers near rotating cutters. Lick and stick cigarette paper to your work piece. For the top of flat work piece when doing light cuts. Extend quill until cutter touches workpiece, lock quill. Drop table .001 or .002. Or cigarette paper. Black Markers are you friend.
Thank you neil good advice!
Mention should be made of how true the drill chuck holds the edge finder and how square the head is set up as the latter will affect ctr at different positions of quill
Yes , so many add ons , wish i could go back and amend the video . Great place to start though :)
U using dowel pin size...mm size?
🤙
They make an edge finder where the end piece is 0.5" instead of 0.2" so it can find the edge of any diameter rod (just remember to subtract 0.25 and not 0.1)
Yes thank you . that would be a more robust tool for sure , but i am but a simple man lol . The .100 leaves less for me to mess up when it comes to math
What is the name of that tool you used to find center before the straight edge
Great question, I looked up its official name on Amazon and it's listed as this
Fowler 52-577-100 Center Finder with Satin Chrome Finish, 0.375" Mounting Shank
10
those electronic ones are available in 4" long with 3/4 body...
Thanks knight:)
Looking Good!
You bet that sticker does. Thanks again for the swag.
@@Wrighmachining Glad it finally made it.
I thought a haimer was too much at .001 but the edge finder is .002? Didn't know.
Ahh the Pursuit of precision
You never showed a dial gauge to find centre for a hole or shaft or bar stock.
Without a dro I set the dial gauge minus .100 thou for a .200 thou edge finder (wobbler in the uk)
Then advance the .100 thou and you are ready to pitch off.. Started my apprenticeship in 1977
Good point , thank you . :)
@@Wrighmachining It is a point of what the toolmakers taught me. We used cigarette paper in a pocket operation so would blow the pocket dry tear a piece off damp it and when it picked up you were .002" from the work.
There is no need what so ever to keep flipping the edge finder to make it wobble.
Personally I like to do it as preference to gauge speed approaching the edge and slow down. For the actual workings of it you are correct.
@@Wrighmachining If run at the recommended speed of 1000 it will off center itself from vibration and centrifugal force. Besides , you can easily see when it is within .050" or better even without the wobble.
I use them so much, that that extra step which has no function would drive me nuts. It's fine if you like to do it but I'd say it is not right to show it as if it needs to be done, for the nubies sakes.
@@billshiff2060 thank its always a pleasure when other competent tradesmen offer good advice. Thank you
Good informative video, but check your audio. There is a low frequency hum that keeps coming in when your doing things. It’s real annoying on headphones or ear buds.
Thank you for the had a up. Really appreciate the feed back. I will make more efforts to fix the issue in videos to come.
Cigarette paper 0.001" - handy in more ways than 2.
Lol, very true ;]
my edge finder is awaiting repair. mmmm... forgot to change into low...
wobbler to the rescue.
i guess if i dug out teh old touch probe its battery will have died...
Nooooo !!!! That sucks . Touch probe to the rescue i guess :)
I saw a funny looking hat and had to stop...
Hahaha , fedora . Glad ypu enjoyed
@@Wrighmachining check out "Henry the Hatter" in Detroit.