What Actually Is This Golden Path? | Dune Explained
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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
- Dune explained.
If you're a Dune fan, you've probably seen a lot of online discussion about the Golden Path. This term is the key point to the debate about whether Paul and Leto Atreides are heroes or villains; and for many people it’s the only justification for their terrible actions.
All those wars and the deaths of billions; they were all means to forge this way.
So, what exactly was this Golden Path? Let’s take a closer look.
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Golden Path? i choose Age of Stars path. oh wait wrong topic
Dune is about Islam vs whites , it has nothing to do with “ religion manipulation “ as many claim, Paul made his promise and took them to paradise and won against the imperialist whites , this is literally our world now and what is happening right now , it is Islam bs whites
The difference is that Leto II has direct access to all of humanity's history through experiences and memories on both the female and male side. He's seen and experienced all. In that way, he differs from actual despots who claimed they know what is best for humanity and the future but with no direct access to humanity only books and historical accounts which we know is often not always the truth and often manipulated especially by the victors.
He also had the ability to see the future in a more coherent way than his father, and he knew that his tyranny was the only way to make sure that humanity would "Look out for tyrants." Yes, seeing the past in all its glory and darkness helped, but he knew the struggle and utopias were not over in the future. I'm honestly not doing it justice in explaining the whole thing, but I believe the two advanced face dancers at the end of Chapterhouse, Dune have something to say about the advancement of humanity, that we can create our own future, good or bad
Oh so Paul can’t see his male ancestors’ memories? I thought he could…
@@joetheperformerno he can see male and female memories. The difference between him and his son is that Leto II was pre born so he had no inherent sense of individuality that Paul had, having not opened those memories until taking the water of life. That is why Leto II could make the sacrifice that Paul could not.
@@allthingsnerd.4484 agreed. Paul has had too much from life and is too invested in the people in his life. Meanwhile, Leto II never had the chance to have such a life before prescience. That makes sense that he didn’t feel as much attachment to humanity.
@@joetheperformerLeto II has a deep attachment to humanity, but not to being an individual human.
frank herbert was so high
He definitely was not low
Paul Stamets confirmed this vis a vis Herbert eating mushrooms and coming up with a lot of his ideas.
Want to write fantasy? Smoke a joint. Want to write sci-fi? Eat some shrooms.
With Dune: Messiah is on the way to the silver screen anytime soon, the next 4 installments will be too complicated for directors to direct.
@@Thailerr "Horror fantasy....cocaine" - Stephen King
Frank Herbert wrote the Dune books as a warning against trusting charismatic leaders blindly.
At the same time, the Golden Path is the one slim, miniscule chance of humanity to avoid extinction, and while Leto II Atreides achieved this, he underwent a horrifying metamorphosis...one that his father couldn't, as Paul ultimately wanted to preserve his own individual humanity whilst Leto II due to his unique birth and Bene Gesserit background and design was able to hold his humanity in the midst of becoming what he needed to be to achieve the Golden Path.
Paul Atreides, Alia Atreides, and the twins Ghanima and Leto II Atreides were faced with the choice of undergoing the metamorphosis of the God Emperor Sandworm-Human hybrid...but Paul refused, Alia couldn't, and Ghanima said of Leto II: "One of us had to accept the agony, and he was always the stronger"
In Dune, Paul becomes the Padishah Emperor...but this results in a galactic jihad that genocides trillions.
In Dune Messiah, Paul can't stand being the ruler and can't bring himself to do what the Golden Path would need...leaving into the dessert.
In Children of Dune, Alia Atreides serves in place of Paul...but can't handle the power nor her spice-induced abomination and madness...
In God Emperor of Dune, Leto II is the hero and the villain, orchestrating thousands of years of stagnant, repressive, and still rule to ensure humanity would never again allow themselves to be ruled under any sole despotic ruler...planning his own downfall and achieving the Golden Path, freeing humanity from his all knowing prescience with Siona Atreides.
Lastly in the end of Chapterhouse: Dune, as with Quinn's ideas (a wonderful sci fi literature channel), the ending sums up the very theme and message of Dune - Frank Herbert himself has "lost control and rule of characters that are supposed to be under him," resulting in their "true freedom." Ultimately it's a "happy" ending of sorts, but Dune, much like a great sandy mountain, shows the theme that whilst a ruler can seem mighty and stable and promise greatness, it's all just sand shifting and sifting like grains on a desert.
This isn't to say there's only nihilism in Frank Herbert's 6 Dune books, but a warning of power, a long view of history, a message of the impact of ecology, and the theme that corruptible people are attracted to power, and no ruler is perfect.
It's a critique, an exploration, not a myopic condemnation. It's a fictional sci-fi novel structured around deeply archetypal human behavioral patterns, not explicit propaganda.
Brilliant summary
That summary comment deserves an award, thank you my good sir.
Brilliant summery, I would only add this question - isn't it said in the opus that the corruption attracts power not the other way around?
@hypatia137Wow....thank you!✨
The more I learn about the Dune universe, the more I feel like it’s all an acid trip. The lore is insane!!
Spice is definitely inspired by the author's experiences with mushrooms 🍄 😊
Try watching it while on acid....🤯🤯🤯
@@jessicamccormick701LSD
It's why Jodorowsky's vision of it would've made much more sense than some overproduced hollywood bs
@@YYYYY123Y what the fuck are you on about? Jodo is a charlatan who doesn't even like Dune. Sure, Denis is a prick, but to say Jody's would be any better is just ridiculous. and you must be one sorry pothead sap to think his version would hold a candle to the overproduced Hollywood bs. (ps: I do agree it's Hollywood overproduced crap, but it's still better than anything Jody could imagine)
This is probably why Tolkien hated Dune.
Tolkien embraces the heroism and understands the action of a hero can affect the world and anything that revolves around the hero, Frank however detest heroism and hate the fact that hero must exist to save the world so he makes Paul as a hero but reject his role but regardless have to accept it in the most grueling world he lives in.
Well, also, t
Tolkien was more about black & white, good and evil, Herbert was all about the gray. Also their views on faith and religion.
What was the threat that was going to make humanity extinct? How were we risking our species's survival by going on business as usual? It worked for thousands of years before Paul. Did Leto II foresee some specific event, an extragalactic threat, or some war so devastating that not a singke soul could survive?
Ask Leto II
The whole idea is that humanity had become fragile, very dependent on spice, always involved in petty scheming and internal powers fighting for control, unreliable alliances; so any threat external or internal in the long run (thousands? millions of years?) could potentially send humanity as a whole into a death spiral. Maybe it wasn't even a single event, he foresaw that without intervention humanity would eventually cease to exist, a long and slow death, so slow that even humans would not notice they were dying.
According to additional books, written using notes left behind, the threat was the return of the Thinking Machines - which were not completely wiped out at the end of the Butlerian Jihad as first believed. Humanity needed to be so scattered, so adaptable, that it was impossible for the Thinking Machines to ever dominate or eradicate all of humankind ever again.
Read the books. At least the original herber books. (it is revealed in his sons books .. but many people consider them to be fan fiction). Its a bit nebulous but at the end of book 4 it is explained what exactly was Letos "gift" to humanity to ensure survival. The trait that allowed humanity whatever may come to survive. Everything else ( the aversion to war, aversion to charismatic leaders) was just extra toppings on the cace
@@broonkhavar1461Yup, thinking machines that have prescience. Leto II made it so that future humans have genes that make them immune to prescience and thus, cannot be beaten by the thinking machines who gain it in the future ensuring our survival.
Loving your essays on dune.
Maybe the real Golden Path is the friends we made along the way.
In Frank's books, the Golden Path was freeing humanity from the trap of prescience, evolving humans to be invisible to prescients.
And then Brian's books reverse this, so that the Golden Path becomes Duncan Idaho becoming the ultimate Kwisatz Haderach, directing the future of humans and sentient machines both.
Your joking on that final bit right?
@@Chris-jw8vm Have you read "Sandworms of Dune"?
@@jeffdege4786 not read any. Just watched the movies 3 times each.
To answer your question regarding why Leto's actions and will should be prioritized, it is relatively simple: he held the power to turn his will into reality. His privilege as an abomination, Paul's son, and ruler of humanity gives him the right to do as he pleases as no one can challenge him. That's the beauty of Leto, the simplicity and complexity of existence. He is a continuation of humanity's desires to dominate, cultivate, preserve, and destroy by the rights of one's physical or mental willpower. Those who lack the means or ability to overcome fate will be in oblivion as the universe rewards survivors, not losers.
Leto was somebody who felt the weight of his responsibility; he accepted his burden while his father rejected it, dooming his sister towards self-destruction. Leto embodies humanity's desire for survival; similarly, one cuts off an unnecessary limb. Leto does the same for humanity. Purging aspects of the human condition and predating humanity's character to the point where all weakness that'll likely doom the species is exterminated for eternity. Strength is one aspect of the equation of life that one cannot ignore; if you cannot accept that fundamental truth of existence, then your only choice is oblivion. Life is for the strong-minded, those who experience life's cruelties and choose to rage against the darkness in pursuit of light. Honing one's inner darkness to serve the light while combating outer darkness in whatever form it may take, cosmic horrors beyond imagination, predatory aliens or animals, or simply other people who wish to impose their will upon you.
Life is a reality to experience, not to alter; accept the game for what it is and play it to your heart's content, facing the consequences of your actions and the ultimate fate that awaits all things in our universe. Remember, even a sun can die, and there exist mysteries to our universe that may never be known to our species. So fight for the right to exist and adhere to the order of things until the opportunity for further adventure comes about, as seen at the end of God Emperor in the significant scattering and famine times when the authority of another is absolute plan around said power, innovate and self analyze to the point where you can develop yourself into a weapon that can ultimately overcome said authority in the long run-cultivating your power base so that you can guarantee your own community safety without opposing the powers that be directly or indirectly-cultivating your strength symmetrically with the existing institution until inevitably it doesn't. The question of why Rome fell isn't what should be considered. Instead, the question should be, why did Rome last so long?
Leto never altered the game's rules, merely enhancing their reality in the minds of all living beings and proceeding generations. Forcing them to understand the universe's structure so that they don't make the same sequence of mistakes that would've resulted in the death of humans across the universe. Proscribing inherent disgust towards the characteristics that would lead to oblivion, thus prolonging the game itself and humanity's continued existence into likely infinity as we continue to grow unchecked by our weaknesses.
There's so much to disagree with here.
@@Skyswindler Agreed. It’s flowery pseudo-intellectual language for fascist rhetoric.
I feel like the entire point of dune's story is to question the logic of the comment given. To disagree with the leaders who use them and the fanatics who wholeheartedly believe in them without questioning.
@@Skyswindler true. All his paragraphs could be simply replaced by "only the strong survives and the weak dies, so choose to be strong."
This philosophy can justify any type of cruelty. And it openly prohibits any form of questioning. Cz if you question it then "u r just a weak person, CHOOSING to be weak who will face bad consequences because he/she refused to face the truth." You know who else talks like that... charismatic and fearful leaders.
The golden path is the path that leads you to become an Elden Lord.
I think Leto’s peace, which lasted 3,500 years was an effective stalemate. Paul, sure a messiah and a tyrant, but he son brought lasting peace for generations.
Peace was not the goal.
Remember Daniel and Marty at the end of the saga, they some kind of advanced face dancers, that also had precience, and obviously some pretty advanced technology, I think that was the enemy Leto 2 was afraid of and why he saw the Golden Path as the only hope for the survival of humanity. That's why he was genetically altering people that could not be seen by precience, and don't forget the no-ships. Who knows how much worse it could have been with Daniel & Marty, and what their plans for a humanity really were.
Thoughtful commentary.
Personally, the tension between a risky personal freedom and a safer subjugation has always been interesting.
My own views have also evolved over time.
Great essay ! Does anybody know the title of the backround music used here??
I think it's "Arrakis" from "The Art and Soul of Dune (Companion book music)" album.
Good work!
Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. Like Anakin Skywalker, Paul Atreides went down the dark side because he chose to. Visions or not, Paul made a choice and he acted on it. What Leto did was far worse and there is no justification for evil or committing atrocities for the so-called greater good.
This reminds me how Jon questioned the Night Watch’s moral system such as taking in an ally like Craster, a man who rapes his own daughters. If the Night’s Watch are guarding the realms of men and allow some evil to exist for the greater good, then what or who are they actually protecting?
I agree with Peter Jackson’s Aragorn that humanity will likely succumb to evil in the future but that doesn’t mean they should stop fighting evil in the present.
Wow great video! Thanks❤
great video!! what about more dune????*
He is like real world gods, he creates a world of suffering but says everything is there for humanity.
Exactly the cynical take that the films are portraying, and not at all how Herbert saw things.
except he actually KNOWS he is doing it for humanity. His prescience, his depths of genetical memory are established dune world building facts.
That is why its so difficult to judge Leto 2 and Paul ... by regular tin pot dictator standartds sure they are evil - but they are not regular dictators by any means.
Leto 2 stretches the definition of human to the extreme if not beyond.
Leto knows the future as you know that tomorrow you will be going to work. He knows the consequences of his actions and the suffering he causes. He remembers being Polpot and being Cesar and being slave on plantation and a doctor during a plague, and starving girl orphan.
He is placed in a unique postion and his sees the consequences of his actions on survival of human race as surely as you see the consequences of going/not going to work tomorrow.
@@TheDancing0windthe future doesn’t exist
@@TykoBrian7 no - you don't exist
The Golden Path was a false path taken by Leto II who in essense, because he was pre-born, was not human. How can he make a decision about humanity when he wasn't one himself?! Paul by contrast was human.
The best course for humanity must always be determiend by humans despite it being flawed. They are the ones who tread the path. Leto ll has the prescience and past experiences and knowledge of all those who came before him but he's less human than they ever were. And by dictating the future of humanity, he inevitably strips it of its essence.
This guy knows his stuff!!!
The one that provides the best future for humanity that is possible
Great video!
Lore of What Actually Is This Golden Path? | Dune Explained momentum 100
It's the globglogabgalab
I think the best choice is the one which allows our actions to be judged by history.
There is of course question of was this action necessary for Leto II? The answer is that within the plot Leto II's ability to predict the future tells him that it is. This does not mean that it actually was since even Leto II's vision was limited by creatures like him and some advance technologies. He however acted using the best information he could have and made necessary sacrifices even personal ones. In my opinion Leto II was a good person forced to situation with only bad alternatives.
I mean yeah if you have to choose between violences, he might be right but still it's an allegory for real-life leaders and their choices.
@@morgoth4962 Ultimate all knowing leader comes and his only message is: Don't trust the leaders!
But ultimately like in the real life we never know if Leto II saved humanity and neither did Leto II himself. He like people in the real world are seeking "the good ending" but there are two problems: One can't see the future and nothing truly ends
@@morgoth4962 How come leto ll does know the future? He literally sees all possible future from every decision made. Claiming that he did not know if humanity is saved is pure BS when the whole point of the golden path is to save humanity from extinction
@@zulhilmi5787 The idea is that every path leads to certain extinction besides the Golden Path.
@@scotscottscottt Did you actually read the books?.
Golden path is not 1 specific set of instructions - but it is a direction of actions that produce the result - survival of humanity.
And yes he did not see the future in absolute detail but he saw it certainly good enought to be certain .. and you cannot dispute it as you are not in a position to do any prescience :) he is the expert. Yes in real world such claims would be silly. But In dune's universe prescience is very real and Leto 2 could do it better than anyone by a LONG margin. It was not just Leto 2 who saw the threat and the golden path (again read the books) but he was the one who took action on it.
Its possible someone else could have done it. But then they would be the god emperror.
For some reason I just don't get the Dune lore, it seems so simple compared to worlds like Game of Thrones but there are so many undertones and I don't know who is a protagonist.
I suddenly undrerstand emperor from 40K
What? The God-Emperor (WH40K) made human extinction inevitable.
@@DreamersOfRealitywrong. He also had his “golden path” , however unlike Leto he had MUCH more omnipresent enemies constantly messing with it. If Horus Heresy didnt happened he would have advanced past the point of breaking on that path and basically left the Gods of Chaos in the dust. However they struck before that happened and ruined his plan. Yet even despite that he chose to sacrifice himself to let humanity survive and potentially find a new path.
Well when you got the thinking machine empire out there in the shadows of the cosmos waiting, and that's the conflict that really defined the imperium it's somewhat justified but not really however the scattering did create a buffer zone and bought time for events to happen
IMHO FH's son's novels are not worthy to be part of Dune series.
@@SystemLordNemo well my friend private property does still exists. And since he owns it he can do what he wants with it, and the people that usually down him are the same people that considered the Dune Encyclopedia cannon when it not and has never been
@@blakehenry9030 Copyrights be damned! It is clear Brian added elements Frank never intended. I'm not buying that BS of "secret notes".
@@SystemLordNemo they said the same thing with the Tolkens Sons work's
@@blakehenry9030 I don't know. I always got surface impression that Christopher published almost everything his father had ever written. In proof written and edited form of course. I have no idea if that altered anything significant.
But none of this would matter if the books were good...
3:23 Yes, obviously it is a part of being human. That is what a parent does for their child/children very few people value their own happiness over their children's and those that do are considered ill. Also, you say "If Leto truly possesses the ability see the future" and it seems fairly obvious in the books that he does, and to an insanely precise degree. It is also worth mentioning that his efforts aren't an attempt to prolong humanity or potentially avoid extinction; he does exactly what he saw needed to be done to ensure the total extinction he knew would happen otherwise can not happen.
Seriously, did you really understood the books?
Dune, the humanist version of lotr
The extinction that Leto II saw wasn’t just a potential outcome, it was the inevitable destiny of humanity without the Golden Path. He saw that without his choices, humanity would cease to be. His choices were to guide humanity away from extinction or let them be happy and drive themselves off a cliff.
Do you limit your children for their own good or do you let them play in the street because they like it?
Paul rejects the golden path. He sees the narrow way, and leaves it for a stronger man to walk. Paul is a coward and a monster. Leto II is merely a monster
I don't think Paul was a coward.He knew that he couldn't do it, because he wasn't the KS, his son was.
Leto can see for certainty that humanity will go extinct if he doesn't enact the Golden Path.
He ensures the life of an infinite number of people in the future at the cost of what will be the smallest possible percentage of all humanity that ever was or will be. It's a logical transaction.
In reality you need to consider how likely things are, since prescience isn't possible.
I've been looking videos about the Dune universe ever since I saw the movie. There are many content creators who give excellent information, but you are by far my favorite. Concise, easy to digest and great writing. Thank you!
Read the books.
This question has been sticking with me: What if Leto was wrong and he oppressed humanity for millennia for nothing?
As no one had abilities superior to Leto, no one will ever know. If there were aliens or machines resistant to his prescience, he could have easily been incorrect.
Lol, he asked a hypothesis bro. Calm down. It's a good question as well. @@nickcarroll8565
he can see the future, so he knew it would work
@@edba1.037 not if there were prescient resistant aliens or machines already in existence.
There are some concepts in Dune that I deeply appreciate, such as Frank Herbert's critical look at charismatic leaders and religious messiahs. I like that there are specific focus on the systems that give rise to them. I like that they are represented as fallible and I also enjoy the moral ambiguity in his work instead of clear lines between black and white, good and evil. But at the same time, that is where my enjoyment ends.
The idea that Leto II became the God Emperor intent on crushing humanity in his fist in an attempt to force them to "evolve" is in my opinion misguided.
This "Golden Path", this distant future that apparently only he can See is the only reason there is any moral ambiguity in his actions. Otherwise, what he did would be seen as an atrocity of astronomic proportions (pun intended). Dune, at its heart is a work of fiction and I believe the author used it to tackle some very important philosophical questions but at the same time, I also think that it is somewhat pretentious and takes itself way too seriously.
I believe that every time allegory attempts to teach us an important lesson about the human condition, either moral or political, it is also in our best interests to make note of the places in which the work in question also inadvertently deviates from reality and inevitably distorts it.
2:38 That his plan actually worked is based solely on his mythic power of prescience. It's a bold claim to make as it paints the diversity of the human condition and the human experience in a single brush stroke and strongly implies that every single human would experience and respond to the trauma of his tyrannical leadership in the exact same way.
That is just not the way life works.
There is a reason why two people can have the exact same experience and respond to it in drastically different ways, quite often diametrically opposed. Now think about it from the perspective that every person experience within his Empire will have a different experience and a different reality based on their culture, birth, geographic location, religion, language, genetics and heritage - all the things that constitute to personal identity.
Pain may be a universal experience but we each have an individual response to it. So to think that Leto II assumes that he could somehow teach a moral lesson to every human in existence that they will learn and carry it with them and somehow they and their children and their children's children will never forget it is *arrogance of the highest order.*
I also resent the idea that he seems to think that the only way for humans to learn and grow, to _evolve_ is through suffering and subjugation. This is a misguided religious conception: that pain by itself is a catalyst for transformation. It is not. It takes a person of immense character to endure and an even greater one to transmute suffering into something else.
What I have learned in the field of psychotherapy is that trauma gives rise to mental illness. It is the suffering that begets more suffering - the cycle of abuse that spins and spins until someone decides to grab hold of the wheel and stop it. What is to stop someone from Leto II's world from looking at the suffering around them and infer that the only way escape suffering is to seize power at any means necessary? It is also worth pointing out that the experience of complete and utter powerlessness, or worthlessness or despair that often gives rise to antagonistic personalities: Narcissism, Sociopathy/Psychopathy and Machiavellianism. (All of which have strong ties to charismatic leadership and centralized power.)
You will be surprised and disturbed at the monster survivalism can turn you into.
So this idea that his tyranny being some great gift to humanity does not seem real to me. It sounds like the delusions of a villain who believes that everything he did was for the greater good without taking a hard look at the reality around him and for that, it renders the ethical dilemma presented in Dune completely moot.
You put my thoughts about the Dune franchise into words better than I could have.
The prescience doesn't really imply that humanity is uniform. It accounts for the variety.
The entire point of that is to examine things under idealized conditions.
Let's just grant everything the genocidal tyrant is claiming. It's all true, it's all guaranteed to work, and it's 100% the only way.
Even knowing that Leto 2 has it all figured out and what he's doing is the only way to ensure the survival of humanity, it's STILL a moral dilemma.
-> No real life person acting like he does can ever be justifiable. If we don't cheer for Leto, no great "man with the plan" can ever be worth considering.
I think the main summary here is: would be nice if they shown if it all was worth if or if Wormleto just screwed up and gave humanity PTSD.
Leto wasn’t wrong. Herbert was wrong.
I don't know about pain & subjugation, but remember Leto's conversation about change. He was basically saying we need challenges to grow. Humanity became complacent and that led to the thinking machine war. Leto 2 knows how dangerous stagnation is to human kind. As terrible as it was, that was the purpose of the golden path.
The future does not exist, it is merely an idea, there is only the present. The eternal now. Therefore sacrificing the present for the Future is samsara
Why is that always the ultimate theory that through great suffering will peace and prosperity become. Why is that always the case?
It’s a tenant that those who oppress want those who are oppressed to believe. Oppression does not lead to future liberation or freedom. There is no justice in suffering. It’s scary that we think this way.
It is because humans can't have peace. There is two reasons first is rarety of resources second is human nature itself. So humanity is and always be in constant wait for ultimate peace and prosperity while the best we can have is what we already have now.
I personally think even in some post abundant reality even if we have unlimited resources people would create poverty and lack to have control and upper hand over others.
There are in my opinion 3 types of humans. If you give the 3 types all money they need to fullify all their material needs and wildest dreams. First category will lose it those are people who indulge in self destruction drugs parties out of emptiness (like some Hollywood stars) etc. 2nd they ll aspire for some spiritual fullifiement give out to charity or just enjoy themselves (to my mind jeff bezos came as an example he just spending his money on his own entertainment doesn't care to shape humanity future doesn't think being a billionaire makes him qualified to know what is best for humanity ) . 3rd and in my opinion it is majority they ll go after power they want to control others either they are honest about it to themselves or they are driven by some rationalization process and self-righteous claim to power for the greater good.
So the 3rd category is why we can never have peace.
And you can see this in our current politics you ll find tyrant regimes who are straight out tyrants they want power they don't care what we think. You ll find tyrants like the god emperor for example democratic powerful nations who start proxy wars in some regions for the greater good to keep a sense of stability because peace is impossible and you can see as well how some elites think about preserving humanity in the face of challenges like pollution "overpopulation" and some really sensitive resources going instinct if consumed at the same pace by all the 8 billions.
So like the god emperor envisioned we are always caught in cycles of war suffering and peace and he had to make the choice of which generations will live through peace and which through war. And he chose the future generations to have peace.
@@mcclorei9 Sounds like you're taking a big hit from the Presentism Pipe. Suffering has been an unavoidable fact of life for nearly all of humanity's existence. You don't think the more reasonable explanation for the "With great suffering...." lullaby was that it was kinda the only thing you could say that would keep community-society from ripping itself apart in desperate times...and then it didn't even really work all that often?
I think it has a lot to do with our concepts of physical cycles and dualities in nature. After death there is life, so it may stand that after suffering there is peace.
I think the weight of all those past lives inescapably poisoned whatever prescience Leto--or Paul--possessed. Yes, the prescience was real, but was it complete? Did they truly see all possible paths--or only the ones that made sense to beings who could recall and reminisce about humanity's ignorant and brutal past as if it happened last year? This was a society still stuck in the Middle Ages, despite aeons among the stars. Great houses, emperors and nobility, sword and knife fights to settle disputes, brutal lack of concern for the peons except when useful, concubinage and political marriages to create alliances, visible power held by men while most of the power in women's hands existed in the shadows, and an obsession with bloodlines point to a society not only stagnant, but already well acquainted with the follies of populism and concentrated power.
And then along comes a family with extra super duper special bloodlines--and prescience. And their solution to the problems of stagnation and concentrated power is to double and triple down on the same ideas to force an explosive backlash against concentrated power? That's the reasoning of trauma survivors who do the same awful things when they hold the whip because their minds have been so warped that they are incapable of thinking of better ideas. It's also the reasoning of old age that has become incapable of seeing or even understanding new paradigms. Trying to hold all of history in one mind while simultaneously considering new ideas seems a fool's errand. Leto II got his backlash. But did he really change anything? Doesn't look like it to me.
While Leto had lot of knowledge he was like everybody else just a one dum human. His visions could suffer among other things "survivor bias". Maybe some timelines made anti omniscience genes or technologies to expand far and wide removing those timelines from Leto's visions. It is hard to not think thousands of years under Leto's reign to be nothing but waste. Needed technologies like the "no-ships" or anti omniscience genes probably would have not need that long in technologically advanced society. The only reason for that length was the "lesson". Were people truly that resistant to liberal thought?
Populism isn't a dirty word, my friend. Democracy in all its forms is populist by nature.
Our rulers poison the term because they fear people making them obsolete.
@@SystemLordNemoYes cause the Jihad made humanity destroy all machines and the people after was complete aholes. So yes. Series, this series as a sci fi before Leto was ruled by a bunch of medieval aristocrats, what liberal exist in these people?
Great video, great explanation! Can you please do a video about the Butlerian Jihad???
You didn’t mention that Leto II’s goal was to make humankind invisible to prescience. He needed them to no longer be ruled by prescient visions and pathways. That’s why Siona was so important.
It also ties into the whole Marty and Daniel thing too
There are more lives affected between his death and infinity than between his birth and death.
Yup, so from a utilitarian perspective the golden path is the right choice by a mile.
I disagree.
You're sacrificing the happiness and well being of people who are alive in the present (causing actual people to suffer) for the well being of people who do not exist.
If humanity goes extinct it doesn't mean that those future people "suffer"; they don't feel anything.
Think of it this way. If you had a million people in the present experience "happiness" and zero people in the future experience "nothing" (neither happiness nor suffering), you'd have infinitely more "happiness"; it's like dividing 1,000,000 by zero.
Compare that to The Golden Path. In that case those present million would experience "suffering". Let's say this hypothetical future has 99 million people all all of them experience "happiness". (You could use any number, I chose 99 million for the sake of easy math) In this scenario, there are 100 million people total from the present and future and 99% of them experienced "happiness". Sounds good, right?
But that is still less than the first scenario where 100% of the people experienced "happiness".
Now obviously this is an oversimplification, but it's a way to show the pitfalls of a utilitarian "means justify the ends" type of argument.
@@Jon.A.ScholtNo, with Leto II vision... those people he see in the future does exist, if he does nothing they will still exist, but will go extinct and therefore the one he sees now is merely fleeting. They live happily now mean sacrificing all the humans in the future.
You should keep making Dune videos, the ones you've made so far are great
Is there anything in Dune book that proves that the 'Water of Life' isn't acting as a parasite and that the prophesy isn't just propaganda?
I think that depends on whether you read Herbert as having intended us to take as the fully objective, “actual truth” everything about Paul and Leto II describe seeing about every other path being a worse future and leading to the end of humanity. That, or the subjective interpretation that we all have even when we try to be fully truthful. Is their prescience necessarily actually perfect and complete just because they think it is?
I lean toward an author who explicitly didn’t think you should take charismatic leaders at their word wanting you to have some suspicion about their predictions of some eventual future horror that justifies their need for absolute power and cruelty now. I’d even argue there’s evidence _supporting_ your suggestion. Using the water of life opens them up to the experience and influence of all the minds before them, bringing all their biases/prejudices/subjective interpretations of what worked for them in their past.
Leto II even said the voice he most listened to, and pretty clearly based his plan on to avoid the human extinction he said was otherwise unavoidable, was incredibly oppressive and considered it a success to have created an empire of short lived superstitious easily manipulated subjects. Of course the ancient dynastic autocrat would think their methods were “good for” the people and should be used again.
I think the story is an insight about the human nature: love and prosperity lead our species to stagnation and ultimately to demise, while hatred against opression is a powerful engine driving to progress and evolution. To become an engine for progress one must sacrifice his/hers own humanity and put the goal about personal human values like happyness, love or perpetuation of own genes aside.
Thank you for clarifying the "golden path". Was never sure I totally understood Herbert's plan
Informative, concise, and to the point. Subscribed :)
What a series!
I've always disagreed with the Golden Path and the "logic" for it.
You're sacrificing the happiness and well being of people who are alive in the present (causing actual people to suffer) for the well being of people who do not exist.
If humanity goes extinct it doesn't mean that those future people "suffer"; they don't feel anything.
Think of it this way. If you had a million people in the present experience "happiness" and zero people in the future experience "nothing" (neither happiness nor suffering), you'd have infinitely more "happiness"; it's like dividing 1,000,000 by zero.
Compare that to The Golden Path. In that case those present million would experience "suffering". Let's say this hypothetical future has 99 million people all all of them experience "happiness". (You could use any number, I chose 99 million for the sake of easy math) In this scenario, there are 100 million people total from the present and future and 99% of them experienced "happiness". Sounds good, right?
But that is still less than the first scenario where 100% of the people experienced "happiness".
Now obviously this is an oversimplification, but it's a way to show the pitfalls of a utilitarian "means justify the ends" type of argument.
How would your thinking defend the notion of "acting mindful to save future generations" like preventing climate change?
@@FrostDirt The difference is climate change is already having a great effect on people's lives right now; it is a present problem already causing suffering and is going to cause even more suffering in the near future for people that are already alive. The biggest problem about Golden Path is it refers to something that happens thousands of years in the future. That is such an insane scale that no actual humans in the real world could possibly create a plan and follow it for that long.
Are we doing things right now that may have some unforeseeable consequence 2,000 years from now? Probably. But we'd literally have to be worm gods to know that.
Taking actions to prevent catastrophies from happening 50 years from now is already hard enough. But sacrificing some happiness now for more in the near future is entirely different than causing suffering for thousands of years for an outcome in the far distant future.
Seems to me the worms or worm took over
Died out from what? What was the extinction threat?
love your Dune videos!
🪱
Is basically the sacrifice of the few for the good of the many but with #'s in the billions.
Leto reminds me Egyptian pharaohs.
The main past life that had dominance over Leto II _was_ an Egyptian Pharaoh (Harum I believe his name was)
The funny thing is - in a sence he is - he is ALL of the pharohs of egypt. He can access all of their memories
great videos bro
MORE DUNE PLZ!
I see strong parallels between the Golden Path and the current struggle and debate over climate change.
Climate is always changing. Humans adapt to it.
@@waykool698 Humans, like other animal species, can't adapt to anything no matter what. It's changing too fast because of human activity and a lot of people will die if something doesn't happen to mitigate it.
Or maybe we won't. Our continuation is not a foregone conclusion. That would be hubris to assume.
Explained it perfectly
Great video again!! Thx ❤
The Golden Path is a path paved with good intentions…which leads it straight to hell.
It seems that Leto 2 was preparing humanity for the return of the Thinking Machines or the Robots. Oddly Isaac Asimov had focus on the slow Decline and the Fall of the Empire of the Known Universe in the Foundation Series. Then there is the ruthless Cycle of Destiny of the Battlestar Galactica Two series. The ruthless of Destiny claims that humanity is doom to repeat the mistake of the Ancestor World Kobol. The creation of AI machines known as the Cylons and the enslavement of the Cylons. Ironic the first planet Earth had been a victim of the Cycle of Destiny when they created their version of the Cylons.
Oddly it seems that the descendants of the Cylons the Colonials and the native Humans of Earth 2 seem to be condemn to repeat the Cycle. Ironic some of the Humans focus on Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics in the creation of the Psionic Androids. The Psionic Androids were created to help humanity in its destiny to return to the stars. The Psions, and the Terrans find themselves running into the Descendants of the Fourth Cylons.
if you think about the scale of infinity, 30 thousand years or so is really but a blip and by the time the great scattering occurs humanity would have otherwise been wiped out. W Leto
@Valaritas: I have a question for you. Is it better to live in comfort or have children? - Speaking of your question, is survival more important...
If your parents chose to be comfortable, you wouldn't be here. Just like your thoughts on this channel.
It's easy to judge when you're guaranteed to be alive. This is what distinguishes leaders from speculators - the ability to make difficult decisions.
Survival is the most important thing - every parent knows that. You have to understand that there are values higher than "this and now". And your statement that maybe yes or maybe not the survival of the human race was at stake, I consider it arrogant and I hope that you will never be a leader responsible for the fate of the human race. I would bet on Leto II a not on you. How is it possible that you know so much about Dune and understand so little?
In Islam evil is not justified even if it results in good. The ends do not justify the means. We're responsible for our own actions and will be judged for what we do.
"And not equal are the good deed and the bad. Repel [evil] by that [deed] which is better; and thereupon, the one whom between you and him is enmity [will become] as though he was a devoted friend." Quran 41:34
I think the golden path was created by Paul as a way to justify the billions that died in this name
Then you had not read the books - good job on posting your uninformed opinion
No. As far as I know, Leto 2 and Paul where the only ones capable of seeing it due to them having the strongest ever prescience as they were both kwisatz haderach
I think frank didn't like the option chosen by.... the protagonist. But the story sounds like an accelerationist take on history. Keep making things worse to bring out the best potential in the humanity.
…kinda hard to believe after a few thousand years nobody managed to take him out. he’s jabba the hut for pity’s sake. sure he see every possible move before you make it but still. figure it out… not to get too off subject but i feel the same way about the north korean people. like… revolt?
After watching the first 2 movies, coming here to learn what to expect for the next film, what the fk is this series? These 2 new movies give no indication that worm people are a thing to expect.
"The difference is I know I am right"
"Spoken like a true autocrat"
The ultimate goal is to limit suffering.
'Secher Nbiw' The Golden Path
great vid, what music did you use?
background soundtrack?
No.
The problem was, if Leto did not do it, in the future, it will happen the Krazilec: Ai machines with prevision powers that it will wipe out All humans from the galaxy.
F. Herbert wrote the fascinating SF “Dune” with ingenious settings like some tech limitations.
It also made the novel informative speculative fiction, making us think about the entire system of civilization.
On the other, his intelligence might have told that such limitations will block the civilizational development.
I hope D. Villeneuve solves the dilemma with a humane & hopeful movie adaptation in the 21st century.
This is probably why Tolkien hated Dune.
I don't think Tolkien read the later books.
+++++
My interpretation of the Golden Path was that Leto would create what humanity thought was the utopian ideal, a universe of total peace and stability. But in doing that, he also stripped away all notion of freedom through his tyrannical rule and with it robbed humanity of the ability to evolve on their own. This was not unlike the Butlerian Jihad, where reliance to machines also almost brought about humanity's destruction. Humanity rejected the machines and the false gifts they offered that eventually would lead to humanity's destruction. Without the machines, humanity evolved well past what they thought they were capable of. The Golden Path's purpose was to lead humanity down this supposedly utopian path of peace and stability, only to have them realize that it is an empty path that takes away their humanity. He needed humanity to experience it in order to reject it. Leto can't die on his own, but instead must be killed, so when he does die, it will be because humans have killed him in the ultimate rejection of his Golden Path. The Golden Path and the fake utopia at the end is the false prophet, like Paul and Leto, that will bring about humanity's stagnation and with it their eventual destruction if they follow it. Humanity would die on their own if they reached it alone, but Leto allowed them to reach it and kept humanity alive, so they could experience it and understand it is not the path that humanity needs to follow.
You should read the philosophy of Isaiah Berlin. He frequently touches on these ideas throughout his work and he makes reference to far more moral philosophers than the standard Mill, Hume, Kant and Aristotle.
Leto II did not see the golden path in its totality, before he became the worm emperor Pauls power of prescience was far stronger than Leto's. Paul saw it, he just couldn't abide the horror of it. Also Chani had nothing to do with Pauls decision, Pauls decision was predicated on two factors a) the horror of the Golden Path and b) the fact that knowing the future was unbearable as he had no freedom, no choice, which is why he stopped using his prescience all together, so much so that he was blind due to the stone burner, no longer being able to see with his prescience.
Also Leto II did have something to lose, he begged Ghanima to find a way to kill him when he became the worm emperor. He was only strong enough to do it because he created his inner council with Harum leading it as a gestalt entity.
To me the thing that makes me decide that the Golden Path is right is this: to Leto and Paul all of the lives they saved are not an idea, but a reality. They have seen the future and all of its possibilities, so if they chose to not follow the Golden Path, it directly removes them from existence, dooming infinite lives to never happen.
When Leto travels the Sareer with Siona, he tells her that were it not for his rule, humanity would be extinct already. If you had the absolute knowledge that your inaction would lead to such a devastating result, is it not more cruel to let your race die, dooming all of the descendants of those you bring happiness to today?
In the end, it wasn't his pre-born nature what made Leto to merge himself with the sandtrout: it was that he, unlike Paul, was a true fremen. The fremen would not have doubted to take upon the Golden Path, for they were a people that fully embraced selflessnes for the good of the tribe. Their entire lives were not dedicated to their own satisfaction, but a sacrifice to build a better tomorrow.
"It’s my contention that the difference between a hero and an anti-hero is where you stop the story." -Frank Herbert
After watching some other videos about dune, i genuinely hope directors take different route, cuz after 2nd book of dune it all goes downhill, seems like mr Herbert took a little too much of the "spice" 😂😂
The third book is good too but once you get to the 4th book and beyond things get a bit confusing and the characters are detached. The movies are only planning on covering the second book as the last instalment tho so nothing to worry about
There is a complexity, in the "Trolley Premise" here. How else do you encourage mutation and evolution.
the books might be good but the movies aren’t. Too much lore that an average person won’t get through the film.
The Yellow Brick Road is Real !!!
Was Leto II Leloch Vi Britania and Eren Yeager before they were a thing?
Yeah, basically the same kind of archetype. Also you can add God Emperor from Warhammer here too.
*SPOILERS*
*You only touched - and then only partially - on the means of the Golden Path; not its end nor its motive. Paul and Leto both saw a Great Enemy in their prescient visions; a threat that would spell the extinction of the human species. Paul was unable to bring himself to make the sacrifice necessary to protect humanity from this threat, while Leto resigned himself to do what was needed.*
*In later novels it is revealed this Great Enemy are the AI consciousnesses - Omnius and Erasmus - who, though believed destroyed during the Butlerian Jihad, had actually managed to survive, beaming away on a radio carrier wave at the end of the war deep into the galaxy far from humanity's sphere of influence. Arriving at a base previously colonized by autonomous scouts millennia earlier, Omnius and Erasmus established the New Synchronized Empire far from the prying eyes of humans.*
*Bad as that may be, the real threat - the one Paul and Leto foresaw - was the AI eventually developing prescience of their own. This technological solution to the problem of foresight was foreshadowed with the creation of the No Ships and the No Rooms. If humans could build machines that could accurately predict the future and hide anything from prescience within its sphere, such artifice would not be beyond the AI consciousness to do the same.*
*Armed with a such power, there would be nowhere for humanity to hide from merciless, remorseless thinking machines that knew your every move, knew everything you would do before you do it while they, themselves, remained hidden from future sight. In their visions Paul and Leto see the human race hunted to extinction by this prescient, implacable foe; it was only a matter of time.*
*To counter this, Leto embarked on a selective breeding program of his own; one that would favor genes that hid humans from prescience. The Scattering that ensued following Leto's death merely served to spread humanity - armed with these new genes - far and wide. The goal being that, if the prescient machines couldn't be defeated, then at least humanity would be given a fighting chance to escape their scrying vision, scattered in a diaspora across the galaxy to survive in hidden pockets here and there.*
*_THAT_** was the Golden Path; the safe and predictable order enforced through the machinations and control of a succession of Kwisatz Haderachs, which would have ultimately doomed humanity to extinction, replaced by a new paradigm of prescient-proof, chaotic, irascible, restless humans spreading throughout the cosmos, refusing to be bound by anyone or anything.*
quick Q because i genuinely don't know, wasnt there only a few people with the anti prescience genes alive when he died? surely you'd make sure it was a bit more widespread in the gene pool before you declare mission over?
@@dumpsterplayer2700 Yes, but what Leto set in motion ensured they would spread. Not all of humanity would gain immunity to prescience, but enough to protect them from extinction.
In an ironic twist I'm sure he appreciated, the very plan he set in motion was his undoing; he was killed because he couldn't fully see what was coming at the hands of the prescience-proof Siona. Which then became validation of his plan and "mission over"; if he, the God Emperor, could be killed by a prescience-proof conspirator within his own ranks, then that means his plan succeeded.
After which there's no point in his remaining in control of the Empire because he's no longer truly in control; he can not see the totality of the future anymore and manipulate the fates of mortals. No longer at the mercy of the prescient, their fate was now in their own hands; which was the goal all along.
If Paul Artreides saw the narrow way through, I guess that means he must have seen his son become a worm despot as well…
yes
It’s debatable since Paul initially saw only one child, not the twins, and their birth is one of the last times his prescience is used. He seemed to have at least anticipated the possibility by the time he returns in Children of dune tho
Leto weeded out the useless eaters.
Ahhh yes, Paul's deep love for Cheney
Now you see you miss the point. Leto causing all that suffering assured that mankind would never allow a tyrant like him to arise again. He wasn't crushing mankind's freedom, he was investing in it.
That's just not how humans work, bud. You expect everyone, billions upon billions upon billions... FOREVER, to never follow a charismatic leader ever again? That's crazy.
Two people in real life, can experience the same trauma, and then develop literally diametrically opposed responses to it. Imagine billions doing that.