"We won’t come back here, so we can’t leave Stalingrad!"
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- Опубликовано: 30 сен 2024
- A historical analysis of the military conference between Hitler and Zeitzler on the 12th of December 1942, which is very revealing in several respects. Discussing the situation at Stalingrad, the focus was whether they should reinforce Manstein, or the Italians. There was even talk of a landing in the Crimea.
This video is discussing events or concepts that are academic, educational and historical in nature. This video is for informational purposes and was created so we may better understand the past and learn from the mistakes others have made.
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📚 BIBLIOGRAPHY / SOURCES 📚
Full list of all my sources docs.google.co...
⚔️ If you like Stalingrad, you may also enjoy historian Anton Joly's RUclips channel "Stalingrad Battle Data". Link: / @armageddon4145
If you'd like to learn more about the 64th Army, check out Dann Falk's book on the 64th Army, and his website here: falkenbooks.com/
Historian Jason D. Mark also has a website where you can purchase his books from : www.leapinghor...
Check out Egor Kobyakov's Stalingrad articles here - warspot.net/us...
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ABOUT TIK 📝
History isn’t as boring as some people think, and my goal is to get people talking about it. I also want to dispel the myths and distortions that ruin our perception of the past by asking a simple question - “But is this really the case?”. I have a 2:1 Degree in History and a passion for early 20th Century conflicts (mainly WW2). I’m therefore approaching this like I would an academic essay. Lots of sources, quotes, references and so on. Only the truth will do.
You have to think of Fritz Todt’s early 1942 talk to Hitler, with tears in his eyes, saying that the war was unarguably lost as both Russia and America produced five times the bombers Germany did. Todt left soon after on a plane which mysteriously blew up in the air which Albert Speer was due to fly on but Hitler persuaded him to stay back for a while.
But they knew this before Barbarossa.
In fact America was all for Hitler invading Russia anyway, it just wasn't common knowledge.
The only thing keeping the Americans out of the war was the German russian invasion which collapsed after Stalingrad.
I firmly believe that it was Stalingrad catastrophe which bought America into the war, pearl harbour just being a catalyst, no American wanted to see a communist Europe.
I have to read about this. I knew about Todt but didn't know that Speer was going to be there.
I love these stenographs because they add a human element to a otherwise black and white war. One can be easily desensitized by reading statistic numbers and brief overviews of major events.
I fully agree. I'm not sure what the modern military does, but records like this are super-valuable, as are diaries and other reports made at the time. Anyone doing anything important should be writing everything down! Memoirs are less useful for obvious reasons.
They really help to see what was considered, what were the perspectives and what belives were held which in turn gives the context to what was decided.
@@TheImperatorKnight the emails are probably all archived on some spinning rust somewhere
@@TheImperatorKnight bua
@@TheVoiceTalk it took a couple seconds. Ok check got it
A brilliant entry and much relieved to hear the next Stalingrad installment is in the works.
You sound energized and much refreshed; the break clearly served it’s purpose
"You sound energized and much refreshed; the break clearly served it’s purpose"
There hasn't been an actual break, I've been working my **** off!
In fact, I worked until 3.30 am last night getting this video finished.
But I'm glad I paused Stalingrad because I think I would have had to do so anyway
“Best things come to those who wait”.
Unless, of course, you’re still waiting for The Winds of Winter to ever be completed by George R. R. Martin.
We can wait, it’ll be worth it.
@@TheImperatorKnight Understood. Your considerable efforts in compiling this amazing and comprehensive work are deeply appreciated
@@mikereger1186 Bro give it up he hasn't written a page in years.
Only a break from the Stalingrad series...
Mentioning the possibility of abandoning the 6th Army in order to concentrate on stabilizing the front and holding on to the gains in the Caucasus alone make this video worth the time. It's something I almost never see discussed and was always out there as a viable option. Instead we see never ending debates about how 6th Army could be saved or that they should've broken out, et al.
Yes, it's a very good point. I think TIKs video shows just how bad the situation was for the Germans in Dec '42 (compared to the 'high' of Nov '42). All the German shortages were finally hitting home, & the German High Command struggled to see or believe this after almost constant successes since 1939.
@@eze8970 That should realy be the end of the War.
Even more when the germans lost 50% of their casulties in the last two years of a 5 1/2 year long war.
Alot of death and suffering could be avoided for everyone.
But that wasnt a option for the Leadership.
@@henriklarssen1331 Paulus surrendered on the 31st of January. A week earlier on the 24th Roosevelt, at the close of the Casablanca conference, had declared the Allies policy of Unconditional Surrender. Not the brightest idea to have when you are reading your enemies mail and know they know the game is up. No, you offer your enemy a "Golden Bridge of escape" as the maxim from Sun Tzu has it. There is much point made of the inaccuracy of the "Madman Hitler" narrative by Lewis; in contrast this isn't the first bit of Roosevelt bonkers: despite also being able to read the Japanese mail; he had left them misunderstanding American terms for lifting the embargoes that led to the Japanese thinking Pearl Harbor; Strike South; and war with the US, however unlikely to succeed, was their only option. It wasn't only the Axis leaders that bore guilt; in the upper echelons I see no "heros" in WWII on either side.
@@henriklarssen1331 Yes. But 'on paper', they were still winning, & the 'wonder weapons' were supposedly not far off.
Hitler was always a gambler, who still thought he had a few rolls of the dice left.
@@stevewatson6839
"In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way."
-Franklin D. Roosevelt
There's absolutely nothing in any of the Hitler quotes which indicate he's concerned about prestige. German culture doesn't have much double-speak. What they say is what they mean.
Still, in general, as a german, I notice that often the Real meaning of something gets lost in Translation. So especially in more unknown quotes one needs to be aware of that.
As a non-native but arguably expert-level German speaker, and also perhaps an expert in double-speak in many languages, I respectfully disagree. From many perspectives, German seems very technical, unpoetic etc but make no mistake: One has a wide and varied choice of words, phrases, metaphors, euphemisms etc that one can employ when speaking German. German speakers are no less intelligent, motivated or literary than the rest of the world either. To me, the last sentence in your comment betrays something of a lack of familiarity or understanding of German language or perhaps culture/history. Yes, Germans are different to, for example, the English but again, make no mistake: Germans are not all simpletons and Hitler was more than capable of not expressing exactly what he felt. He was, after all, a political mastermind, with all that entails.
This is an absolutely brilliant video and gives an awesome perspective about the human perspective of H-man. This is the sort of humanizing perspective that I had always missed around Stalingrad... it proves almost every single broader strategic point you've talked about for WW2 and very much demonstrates the rationality of H-man at this point in time. He knew what he needed to do to win, and they were even aware that something big was coming but were unaware HOW big, and were helpless to stop it.
Honestly, it sounds like this whole book is fascinating and I might have to see if it's available in Ebook form.
far to often people try to make him out as if he was just insane, or somehow an idiot, instead of just evil. I've always hated that, not because i have any positive thoughts for the gentleman in question, but because i think dismissing his obvious intelligence in dangerous because it makes him out to be as some aberration that can't easily happen again.
@@petriew2018 Evil? even that is too simplistic. I'm getting the impression from some of the directly quoting Hitler literature that I've bought from Lewis' bibliography that it was dawning on him that a large number; and maybe most; of his assumptions and guiding principles were deeply flawed. What Lewis' work has brought out too is Hitler never actually had de facto control; there were a large number of competing authorities in the Reich, none of which could be said to be pulling in anything but the vaguest general same direction, and were more often than not in complete disagreement and pursuing their own agendas. A large part of this was Hitlers fault; and by commision as much as omission. It didn't help that the Allies, the UK in particular wouldn't stick to the script! 🙂 Shame about that. NOT.
Hitler's assumption and principles may be "flawed" in hindsight and in today's standard, but at that time whether it is flawed in the sense of true or false, is less important than whether it WORKED: Is Hitler's German master race concept flawed? Yes, according to modern science. But did this concept unite the German states and people, and build back up their confidence right after WW1, to a large degree, YES.
And sure there was a lot of authorities with some overlapping responsibilities in the Third Reich, but to say they are directly competing and disagreeing each other is just bullshiit exaggeration, there are still clear guideline on who do what, like Waffen SS were strictly under Wehrmacht operational control while SS only has administrative control, and parallel authority positions are often held by the same person, like town mayors were held by local Party leaders, SS and Police units were under the same SS officer (SS and Police leaders).
I believe you might enjoy watching the Hellstorm Documentary . and The Greatest Story Never Told Hitler .
@@petriew2018 agreed - it is a disservice to just call him a madman... if you do so, you wont see the next hitler coming.
Thanks for this TIK great to see the Stalingrad train is still chugging along! Long live Battlestorm Stalingrad!!!
Indeed it is! I've been doing the screenplay and helping my editor today in fact. Not sure when it'll be out yet because I'd rather take the time now to get the editor up to speed, but rest assured that I've certainly not abandoned it
@@TheImperatorKnight can you make a video on why Germans lost at battle of Moscow in depth?
@@ruberxwibebadhi Steady on, mate! Let the lad catch his breath. 🙂
I get the eagerness for loads of Battlestorms on different battles but I'm really stretched right now
@@TheImperatorKnight a short video might also do i am really curious what were the reasons to why Germany lost battle of Moscow.
There's probably a good deal of the sunk-cost fallacy in Hitler's decision
After all, the quote says that "Too much blood has been shed for this", and it's a very common mistake. It's not exactly "prestige", but it's still a form of overcommitment/not cutting your losses (assuming they could)
No doubt The Fuhrer was determined, but most people facing difficulties would give efforts to rescue or salvage the situation first rather than immediately abandoning ship. For example, someone running a company facing net loss would first try to change business practices rather than immediately selling the company, even if the company never recover their profits and eventually goes bankrupt, whereas the perfect avoidance of sunk-cost fallacy would mean the company should be sold the moment it lost a single cent, since (by hindsight) that is when the lost is at the minimal and should be cut, with any efforts later would just be "overcommitment".
Hitler: Is this railway fully done?
Underling: Yes, it is fully done.
Hitler: Is this really really done?
Underling (looks away uncomfortably): Well..........
Totalitarian economics in a nutshell. It's a wonder the Germans got as far as they did and it really shows the adage that he who f***s up the least tends to be the ones that wins. Once the Allies and Soviets stopped f***ing up so much as they had the tide of the war changed.
Yeah, the reason I included that entire part was because I was surprised how persistent Hitler was there, and he was right for being persistent. Zeitzler didn't tell him the full story, and if you think that one of the criticisms of Hitler was that he was making bad decisions, part of the reason why is because the generals weren't giving him all the relevant information, or were even being vague about it.
For whatever reason, Hitler clearly didn't believe Zeitzler here, suggesting that he had been let down in the past regarding information on the logistical situation.
@@TheImperatorKnight One of the key points I got from reading "Wages of Destruction" was how messed up their logistics were even before the war started. There were chromic problems with their domestic railroads during the 30s, causing all sorts of resource shortages. And of course no one wanted be seen responsible, so all the industry leaders pretended like their own department was doing great and someone else was responsible for the problems.
@@TheImperatorKnight In my humble opinion this has always been the achilles heel with dictatorships. They surround themselves with yes men and then get progressively fed worse and worse information, either out of fear or because that's what the yes men think they want to hear. It even happens to politicians in Western democracies. The longer they remain in power, the more they push out the competent people below them as potential threats and replace them with yes men. And the less effective their administration becomes with time.Just look at how bad the last terms of Thatcher and Blair became. You can argue they were bad from the start, but at least they knew how to make it look good at first. Term limits are such a good thing to implement for all politicians.
I think you should get like an honorary PhD or something for all the hard work you do on the massive Stalingrad series.
He'd need to be David Glantz level famous for that. Honorary degrees are so the university can gain clout from the association.
@@samsonsoturian6013 On the Gripping hand, I think there is enough work here (The site overall) to award an actual PhD if it were to be put in the required format. I certainly have on my shelves a fair few academic works that are just a waste of good trees in fact - as well as relative, and in comparison, to Lewis' endeavours.
@ A D • 2
There is nothing new to say about Stalingrad. This video is based on long-published sources. No scope, no PhD project.
@@DannyBoy777777 I can't help it if some wankers aren't paying attention. Fuck off, mate.
@@stevewatson6839 No, I won't you cunt.
Napoleon had the same issue with horse fodder. Not enough transport for fodder, horses die, not enough transport to supply men, they die. Not enough men to conquer Russia the army dies.
Hitler seems far from insane. For an amateur he has a decent grasp of things, especially given the circumstances.
4years ago I came for the tanks, but staid all these years because of the Logistic lessons (and Economy lessons) 👍
It’s interesting that one of the Roman generals who was defeated by Hannibal at Cannae was also names Paulus
I knew a retired British brigadier of logistics and he had an interest in history such as this. He would have agreed with your focus on the logistics not prestige and would have agreed with your assessment. Getting his perspective on the complexity and challenges which face modern logistics, with all our technology and engineering, going into recent war zones was fascinating.
I am the first, and tik, if you see this, I have a small history channel and I LOVE YOUR CHANNEL! I just hit 1000 subscribers, and you are a huge inspiration to me :)
Each time it sounds more like Hitler was a pretty grounded person, aside of the Aryan stuff. I want to add, besides of losing a position that would ruin the Caucasus mission, it sounds as Hitler understood that losing Stalingrad is basic so he can't block the oil sent to the North for the soviets. Great video and analysis, TIK.
Yeah.People too often mix Hitler the public speaker with Hitler in private or among the generals.Most of stories of deranged Hitler yelling out of his mind with his generals either are from last year of the war or were often intentional false testimonies of several generals like Halder and Manstein.
he was grounded it sounds like, just in the wrong things and still made irrational yet consistent decisions
This reinforces my idea that the Germans getting this far was the miracle, and that outright victory had escaped already.
In my opinion, victory was always out of reach. Germany never had a chance from the very beginning.
@@CMY187 indeed. I am not going to say luck aided them, but France was a poison pill. If Germany was at ck in France for even half a year more of heavier fighting- Barbarossa wouldn't happen. Events in the Pacific should not happen (indo China). Beating France defeated the Third Reich
Literally everyone back then disagreed with you.
If the Stalingrad Pocket had collapsed/surrendered at this time it would have released large Soviet units to help with the counter attack and put Army Group A in real danger....Paulus had to hold one way or another.
On the topic of the whole Georgians and blood thing, it seems like he was just associating their relation to Stalin and communism as the greater influence which is pretty ironic. At times his ideology can't grasp the idea that various ethnicities or nationalities can partake in all manner of beliefs rather than having them ascribed the way communism is.
Thank you Tik History for your dedication and commitment to the videos!
❤❤❤❤❤ one of your best videos. Tops Glatz
I have read six books directly on the battle of stalingrad and none explained Hitler's notion of having essentially no option but to sacrifice the 6th army to stabilize the front as clearly as you displayed in this video --I appreciate the detailed mapping and insight!
I was not aware of the repair timetable of the oil refineries down south and had just assumed that due to manpower shortages and poor logistics in the region, engineers had not been sent to facilitate repairs especially considering the degree of destruction wrought on the refineries when the soviets first retreated. You explain how this raises the stakes for the Germans who are in the conflict of dual prioritization to stabilize the front and to support / facilitate a potential breakout. It was easy, at least for me, to just assume that a breakout of the 6th army would take the priority, but I now see the greater picture and broader concerns at play especially when you mention the fragility and state of affairs of the Italians.
I must thank you for these videos, I am surprised how often they make me think in new ways despite my already extreme knowledge in these subjects.
Indeed, whenever I am in a "wait everyone is being stupid" I feel that means I am missing something. This video is one of those where people are indeed being logical.
This is one of TIKs best videos. I am very very impressed.
Really? I think it's one of my worst! 😂
Agree, it's a great insight into Hitler's thinking at this time.
@@TheImperatorKnight No, it was your standard package of excellence.
@@TheImperatorKnight I've seen people dance around the subject for 3x longer and not impart as much insight into it.
❤❤❤❤❤ very impressed!
I am glad you produced this chapter.
It does tie up some of the thinking going on behind the scenes and that Hitler was aware and calculating prior to Stalingrad's encirclement.
He just really had no assets any longer, and appears to realize this, if not admitting it.
You're slowly dipping your toe back into Stalingrad....careful....careful...
Hi TIK! New subscriber here (from the USA), and I gotta say I love your videos! I first came across your channel last year when your 5 hr. long "Hitler's Socialism" video showed up in my recommendations (which I fully agree with, as it makes much more sense than the prevailing narrative), but just started watching your videos these past few days. God bless, and keep up the good work!
Welcome! I'm glad you enjoyed the 5 hour video, and I hope you like the rest too 👍🏻
Real simple answer as to the number of tanks available for Manstein.
Tanks on hand does not mean tanks in service. Very easy for there to be a 20% difference between the two during the Russian winter.
Also got to remember how the Germans reported their vehicle strength.
A tank might be inoperable, awaiting repairs, but it would still listed in the fighting strength of the unit. Wonly when a tank was a total loss would it be removed from the lists
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I keep repeating the same question: The railroad bridge over the Don, at or near Kalatch. Its destruction by the Soviet army hampered the German supply of the 6th army in Stalingrad. If the Germans could have gotten all of the supplies into Stalingrad, that had been stockpiled at Kalach, would it have been enough? Enough to feed and arm units in the city to drive Chuikov across the Volga? To include more fodder and petrol so that when the encirclement happened the 6th army would have been a bit better off? Enough to allow the evacuation of the wounded and more medical supplies before the encirclement? Enough to allow a rapid response in the winter, when the only rapid movement is by rail and air. It was very fortunate for the Soviets that the bridge had been destroyed.
Logistics is an American "obsession." The American Civil war. The UK and the Americas built a pipeline across the Channel in June of 1944, floating harbors... The OKH knew before the war and before operation Barbarossa that they were never going to have enough fuel to win. The OKH ignored logistics. Instead of building giant siege guns, the Wehrmacht needed to devise a way to lay 10 kilometers of railroad track a day, designing portable railroad bridges.
If the goal was the oil fields of the Caucuses, then why go east of the Donetes river? Going further east only spreads your lines thinner. Would it have been better to drive to Baku and cut the Russians off from the oil and food of the Causesses? Stalingrad is in the wrong direction.
The Volga itself helps supply Russia the ability to hold out in the south. Some people say you can avoid Stalingrad and still get to the Volga. You still need to beat the Soviet armies in the Mountains to secure all that oil. Baku is very far away to fight against a supplied and dug in enemy. They also didn't need the Baku oil, just Maikop and Grozny.
This for me really is the most interesting part of the war, Germany’s last gasp for victory so it’s so interesting to watch this with the wealth of all the stenographs. Amazing work
Another point is that the oil from Maikop and Grozny would have a much shorter distance to cover, which would drastically reduce the strain on logistics, as a multiplier it would be traveling a different direction than most of the supplies (north-south instead of east-west).
I just finished Tooze’s book wages of destruction. Great book and didn’t they realize that the oil wells would have been destroyed before they got there? Germany just didn’t have the resources to win this war.
I think they realized the chance. Even in the east Japan invaded the Dutch East Indies for the oil. They had similar issues. The assumption being you can either get lucky (like the Allies and the Rhine bridges) or have enough time to get everything working again.
TIK, could you do a review of your bookshelf one day? Would be interesting to see what you have gathered, and to hear from you the significance of each book to you. Favourite book, avoid book and so on.
Yeah a few people have asked about this, so it's definitely something I need to do
Sad that most of the conference records were lost. Some one ( the generals) wanted them destroyed.
Thanks TIK!🙏🙏 , your programmes are really revealing why the Soviets had so much success late 1942 in the south, the Axis troops & their allies were totally exhausted, combined with the German High Command failing miserably to equip the troops with the right clothing.
With increasing Soviet ability & equipment, it makes sense why the previously unbeatable Germans started losing virtually everything after this.
As per your previous videos, the Germans really did only have a year & a bit to win WW2 (& probably hadn't disclosed this to their Allies!)
You can also see the influence of this war on cold War soviet army, why it didn't become professional and stayed as a huge conscription force. Lesson was, that even the best units wear down in heavy fighting, thus, If you think that the next war will be ww2-like, small professional forces won't be able to win it
As far as the "real Muslims", "real Turks" and "nordic blood" Armenians and Georgian are concerned, it might be that Hitler considered Muslims, and Turks, "reliable" because he assumed they were mostly anti-Semitic and anti-Communist. Hitler saw Jews as easily Communists, and felt reassured by somebody who might see the Jews and the Communists as enemies. That, though, might apply to Muslims in general, rather than to Turks, who at the time were quite a secular state and a secular "culture" in their upper classes. Also, the real conflicts between Muslims and Jews only happened after WWII, although the interwar period certainly gave a hint of the future. Armenians had already been allied to the Russian in WWI, while being in the Ottoman Empire many of them were working for the enemy (hence the massacres) and during WWII might have expected the possibility of a larger Armenian state from a Soviet victory, so Hitler's idea that Armenians might not be reliable allies makes sense. Georgians were unreliable in the sense that they might receive a favourable treatment by Georgian Stalin and Georgia would constitute a "nest of Communists" just like Stalingrad, a place of Russia where people is, or will be, grateful to Stalin. Basically I don't think Hitler is really interested in the racial question here, rather - and more pragmatically - he is worried about the reliability of soldiers who might have a "conflict of interest" in fighting alongside the Germans against the Soviet Union.
There. It is explained.
It is obvious from the fact that he said that Gergians might have some Nordic blood, but are completely disfavoured by Hitler.
They are disfavoured for the reason that Stallin is Georgian, bzt also because they share faith and culture with Russians, while muslims don't.
Muslims (checens, Azeris and others) were violently opposed to Russia for hundreds of years prior and saw Hitler as a means to finally brake free from Christian Russia (now even worse - communist). Georgians beccause of same faith had much better position in the Empire and then in the republic, because it was still dominated by the Russians who were still deeply distrusting of Caucasian muslims. And rightly so.
I already know this..Hitler would trust the Muslims troops because they are the mostly anti communist and Jews of course..
Taking the city of Stalingrad was about oil. The oil that came from Baku came up the Volga River and by taking the city of Stalingrad the vital supply of oil to the Soviet Union would be severed. Stalingrad sits at the great bend in the Volga and controlling the city would also control the river.
To some degree, a major degree I think, the purpose of any military campaign is to destroy your enemies army. Plz allow the oversimplification.
With this in mind, Stalingrad might not have begun as a main purpose of a campaign, but by the Russian reaction of holding Stalingrad at all costs, they create the need for German forces to make Stalingrad more central to the campaign.
I'm sure there's a proper metaphor, but the Germans in Stalingrad were like one who has a grip on a snake, but the snake refuses to die. They cannot let it go without becoming a victim of the snake's bite, but as the grip weakens, the rest of the snake has been free to turn the hunter into the hunted.
The possibility of winning depended on the defenders being no match for the invading forces. It didn't work and none of the efforts to adjust or reinforce in order to pull off a victory really had any likely hope. The failure of the campaign was inevitable.
Kinda seems to be a recurring theme, btw.
I imagine the final 17-24h Stalingrad video having an attachment with TIK saying "Sorry guys, didn't have enough time to put it here so here is a link of another 1h vid. to that conference".
One of the interesting points that isn't brought up: Hitler doesn't want to leave because getting men and equipment out of an area is even more difficult than getting them into an area.
In this video that is brought up.
From the quote about Nordic blood, Hitler clearly associates Turkic people with being Muslim, thus reliably anti Communist. Nordic blood traces to him means non Turkic, thus possibly pro Communist.
It might be remembered that Rommel achieved fame in part by working with the Alpini in the Great War. Thus Hitler's confidence in them.
Rommel and his unit were fighting with the Austrians AGAINST the Italians in the Battle of Karfreit / Carporetto in 1917
10:26 THIS is the definition of overextended. I am astonished to hear this. You don't learn this from the old West Point Atlas, or maps like that. I can't believe no one in the German High Command realized that they needed to consolidate and regroup further to the west for the winter.
WOW! I say again. WOW! What a revealing video this was. A masterpiece for those interested in the Eastern Front as well as the rest of the war. So many questions are answered in this video. A huge thank you for making and posting it.
The sad part of all this, sad for the Nazi's at least, there was no compelling strategic reason to split the forces in two and attack Stalingrad.
Side note: My daughter loved that old Retail tales video you did. Classic. She might not remember “TIK” but she now can say “Grade A Moron” with perfect enunciation ;)
Haha that made me laugh!
one of the most informed and well presented channels around. always a great way of breaking down the technical with real sources. thank you sir
i hated history so much in school just because i couldn’t speak much english and i had to memorize all the dates and stuff like that, but now all i do is watch documentaries about all the battles that occurred in the last century
Rational Evil Hitler is a more formidable yet believable historical character than Madman Evil Hitler.
But not as scary as a Hitler who uses the phrase ‘you know’ in the middle of a sentence.
>>not as scary as a Hitler who uses the phrase ‘you know’ in the middle of a sentence
Good on ya Tik - you're making history producing an epic of this size on Stalingrad
There's some peculiar logic going on here. Sixth Army can't break out because it would mean leaving all it's heavy equipment behind but he also slowly starts to realise they don't have the strength to break in. However if Sixth Army aren't relieved they lose that equipment anyway . Either way that equipment is lost. Why wasn't someone telling him this obvious fact ?
Because his generals were ensuring that they could break in. Like how they promised the airlift would work.
Your title reminds me of the "If I can not get the oil of the Caucasus, I must end this war" quote that Hitler had before in the series.
This is why I love this channel so much. This level of detail and interesting behind the scenes insights you get no where else on RUclips. Thanks TIK
The discussion of where to send the 17th Panzer made me wonder: what if, instead of going after Stalingrad, the Germans had gone up to the Don river and stopped there, established a nice strong defense line, and sent the mobile units of the 6th Army into the Caucusus to secure the oil?
Because the mobile units went from the Don to Volga at the shortest area, which made them arrive north of Stalingrad. If Stalingrad was a secure base for the Russians, allied supplies would still move up the river and reinforcements to the south would also ride the river down. Shutting down the Volga was seen as essential.
This is great stuff. So many interesting little details, not least H's cringe tangents where he seems to think his racial "insights" are really key strategic data that he needs to explain to his generals.
Did they really just have a stenographer in the room with them? Typing away in German steno? Not even encrypted or anything? Seems like a huge security risk. But maybe that's just how things were back then?
"... in 1931 so he was a committed national socialist."
Thank God they kept thinking that was more important than competence.
This is the concept of the "primacy of politics" over everything else. They believed that the problems in the economy or the military etc were because the people running the show weren't driven by "the Idea" or the National Socialist "world view" (the Weltanschauung).
They thought that if they put their guys in positions of responsibility, then this would sort out their problems. Of course, we know that that's not how things work.
Something doesn't add up here. 850 cubic metres is only the equivalent of about 12 ISO containers. Yet they also talk about 4.5 trains per day and needing a lot more. I'd expect a single heavy artillery battalion ( 150mm) to go through 50-100 cubic metres of ammo per day.
Nordic blood does not equal trustworthiness or combat ability. The nordic blood, in this particular context, is brought up to explain why the Georgians are not Turks (ie. an alien people). He says this in order that people should not confuse the two.
What Hitler respects about the Turks is their Muslim religion, which he thinks makes them good fighters. Georgians have no particular reputation as great fighters, certainly not in the service of Germany. Hitler is here mainly talking about the combat ability of non Germans. The common view today, due to decades of propaganda, is that Hitler valued all people according to their blood, but this is simply not true. Hitler does not decide if somebody is a good fighter based on their blood, but rather their actual combat record. Turks have it, Georgians do not.
I'm thinking the real madmen of the campaign are the manstein's of the army not H. He H was bug nuts in general with his race theories and final solutions and what not.... the evidence here that your presenting is fascinating and I think correct that the prestige myth is just that a myth. Top quality job on this once again. Looking forward to you finishing this battlestorm on your terms when you're ready.
It would be cool to do a video like this to study their response to Operation Bagration. Great work, TIK!
Or a video about this battle!
Operation Bagration would be a battlestorm all it's own. As a steel division 2 fan, I would like to learn more about the flagship campaign.
Oh hell yeah. Such an amazing feat accomplished within 3 weeks. I would consider this their magnum opus of deep battle.
Background to Operation Zitadel would be good as well... 2as long as ot doesn't lead to a mental breakdown
@@richardcowling7381 i imagine it would be the lenght of courland so it would be fine, although he could go all in and go from stalingrad and cover everything up until citadel, seeing how stalingrad draged into february and that he would certainly cover its aftermath he might as well cover the months in between for full context
One question: Why did Hitler, who seemed to have at least a decent grip on the Fall Blau situation, even bother with trying to occupy Stalingrad? Why not just complete the entire blocking line to the Caspian Sea, and thereby protect both the Sixth Army as well as his forces in the Caucasus attempting to seize the oil fields?
Spectacular! Your videos should be mandatory in all high school history classes! Thank you for all the research and hard work, plus video editing.
It is a great video. Thank you. However, I think the racism bit is overused by most. That conversation was clearly about the cultural and historical context, very much the same way as politicians’ nowadays. The reasoning, as recorded, does seem childish, but that is also typical and the reason why wars keep occurring and people keep dying for stupid reasons some maniac cooked up
I had stopped watching this channel about 3 years ago, because I thought the videos were not well done enough to satisfy any really hardcore Eastern Front history buff. The quality and the source material has risen dramatically however. Good job!
You stopped watching just before I started the Stalingrad series? Yeah, you've missed a lot! Welcome back
To be fair to Manstein - he never called Hitler stupid. What Mr TIK is doing here is what many historians do (but should avoid at all costs) - they interpret the actions of the historical persons and situations they study to fit their preconceived notions and views of what was going on at the time. Soft sciences are convenient for talkers and arguers. Anything goes. You can prover or disprove whatever you like.
Dilemma is what you want to force upon your enemies. Nothing but bad choices.
DOUGout
I am so pleased I stumbled upon your channel. Finally, a military series that goes into the details typically overlooked or left out. You have answered many of my questions as to why certain military decisions were made which, to me (+benefit of hindsight) I could not understand why, or I thought were outright stupid. You give the big picture and then the personal perspective of the Generals as to what they thought their situation was and the psychological atmosphere of the General staff
Enlightening and informative.
Did the Nazis take into consideration that the Russian would destroy the oil sites and likely fill the drill holes with cement? In regards to their claim to be producing oil in 6 months?
As always, well done. You get lots of unsolicited advice, so allow me.... I was in publishing for 45 years, owned a publishing company and worked in consumer, trade and association magazines. My opinion columns were especially liked by thousands of readers, and dearly hated by dozens. My advice is to focus on your target audience and disregard the haters. Totally. You will never please them, and they will never understand. Dance with the ones that brought you. You have admitted stress and burnout. Stop it. This should be fun. If you need a break, reread Gulliver's Travels. You may find a kindred spirit in Lemuel Gulliver, except of course, that he had more hair.
I understand, but it's difficult to do when history lies in the heart of the debate. Without the opposition, it's difficult to know if you're right or wrong. The pushback from the critics has caused me to dive deeper in the topics, unearthing information that I and many people didn't know. So in some ways I need the haters.
@@TheImperatorKnight Qualified yes. At the risk of being Pollyanna, it's possible that everything lies at the heart of the debate: micro 4/3 v. full-frame cameras, low-gluten v. high-gluten flour in pizza, guilt or innocence in a murder trial.... The thing is that you are suffering from what I call "being nibbled to death by a bunch of ducks." Debate demands rules, and ad hominem, of which you are the frequent recipient, is a fallacy, which is a worthless distraction. I will confess that I have had sport at the expense of idiots. There is a U.S. RUclipsr at Notarubicon that has an interesting take. He pins stupid comments at the top of his Comments and invites his viewers to mock them. Anyway, best of luck. We need you. Don't flame out.
@@kerryknudsen2649 there are a few youtubers in other areas (less serious ones) that have moderators, someone else that would see it as less personal because it isnt directed at them reading through comments picking out ones that present different viewpoints facts arguements etc but doing so atleast somewhat respectfully (I.E without all the character attacks or such) the way I've seen it from other youtubers its been to pick out the funny ones and making it so the the youtuber in question doesnt have to scan through the 5million comments saying the exact same thing
7:20 I gotta say the idea that him not being solely focussed on Stalingrad is a negative is just absurd to me.
Yes Stalingrad was important. With hindsight, it was probably the most important thing going on in December 1942. But regardless of the outcome around Stalingrad, the Germans are still fighting the Soviets elsewhere. There is a bit of a lull in North Africa, but that is just because the US and UK are building up for further offensives (and any toddler would have known that the offensive would resume when the Allies were ready). In late 1942, the u-boat losses were dramatically increasing while tonnage sunk by u-boats was generally flat (and about to take a nosedive). And Allied bombers were destroying important infrastructure (less than a week before this conference, they had just flattened the Phillips factory seriously harming radio production). The German leadership absolutely could not ignore any of those things to micromanage one part of one front even if they wanted to.
Stalingrad? Never heard of it, sounds interesting, maybe he could do a series about it. 😀
Nordic blood in georgians is possible. Nordic means aryan, aryan means indo european, and indo-europeans ruled and migrated to the middle east during the bronze age. Of course in this context, nordic sounds dumb.
I've got that book! I found most of it somewhat.... disappointing, as it consists of Hitler and co making very specific decisions and getting reports down to the battalion level of every unit in Europe. Rarely does he actually share any broader types of views on the military-strategic situation, but when he does I suppose is interesting. As a historical source though, it's certainly invaluable.
My friend, I gotta tell you that I think that your knowledge about biggest and most important battle in human history is simply THE BEST...in any kind of media: films, documentaries, books and everything what is produced...That`s really big thing !!!!
PS-I wish you continue series (of course when you got energy again), because you`ll finish one very big project for education next and next generations...Greeting from sunny Belgrade,SER...👍
Another great video TIK, thank you for all your hard work of researching to make these so people can get the real history
Great episode, I have never saw anyone doing similar - reviewing in such detail so important meetings. obviously hate hitler but after watching this, I feel I need to read more into him.
Any1 know why he always hates on manstein? Presume he thinks he's overrated
Goring ate the 6th Army food supplies
He had to maintain his girth some how.
TIK is the best history channel around :)
I think at 24:08 Hitler just gives a hypothetical, if they come back and by some miracle the materiel (guns, equipment etc.) stays there and isn’t salvaged by russians. Thats why he says it’s a ridiculous thought. But maybe it’s just my own way of interpreting it.
It's a valid interpretation. I wouldn't agree with that, simply because leaving equipment outside in all weather without proper maintenance will result in excessive wear and tear, rendering them inoperable, and Hitler would have known this... However, that doesn't necessarily mean that he wasn't considering that.
@@TheImperatorKnight yea that makes more sense. on other topic, at 5:43 you say there is no explanation for his distrust to Georgians but like a minute back he says that quite a lot of them would be attracted to Stalin and communism, which he hates. So maybe that would be an explanation or are you looking for one based on racism rather than their political following?
@@Worrun He also says he trusts the Muslims, so Hitler is sometimes more pragmatic then we realize.
Hi TIK,
thanks for your work. Its not the subject of this video but I want to say that you opened my eyes, there so many socialists everywhere. USA and Europe is full of them.
I read this book by James Prothro, "the dollar decade", he shows that in the 1920s a number of members of the US Chamber of Commerce and National Association of Manufactures tought that fascist Italy was the "most creditable development in human history". They also called Mussolini a "fine business executive".
Since Mussolini is obviously a socialist, as you brillantly showed, that means that these indivuduals are not true capitalists and free market friendly. These corporate leaders are definitely socialists scumbags. And our goverment is still full of these guys. It is scary.
I also found another scary thing. It concerns Ludwig Von Mises. He wrote in a book of 1927 : "It cannot be denied that Fascism and similar movements aiming at the establishment of dictatorships are full of the best intentions and that their intervention has, for the moment, saved European civilization". He then says that is a necessary evil iin order to fight communism. But this hypocrit. You can not support socialism in order to fight socialism, its just a matter of basic logic.
Again, since Mussolini is a socialist, that means that Mises supported socialism. I would suggest everybody that is a true capitalist and free market believer to stop read Mises. We can not afford to have our mind corrupted by traitors supporting socialists. Mises is definitely a traitor to the free market, like Mussolini.
Thanks again for your work TIK, you are definitely helping people to realise that socialism is everywhere and that we need to fight it to preserve our freedom (sorry for my bad english, i'm from belgium).
************* 25:40 the possible USSR dash to Rostov that cuts off 4th
I'm not sure how it lines up in the timeline but I'm sure the use of German trains to ship people to labor camps and concentration camps couldn't have helped the rolling stock situation. I know that it remained a priority for certain parts of German authority.
My dog! Excellent video TIK. True History here
Every time TIK recommends a book I haven’t read Amazon gets my money.
I would love to see episode of you going through that extensive collection you got behind you and give your opinions on them
Now being replayed in Bakhmut.
How can you believe or prove any of them said any of this stuff
This is an interesting counterpoint to the found Finnish audio tapes of Hitler in discussion with a Finnish Field Marshall about the decision to commit to Operation Barbarossa when they did.
Essentially the Germans were quite sure that the Soviets would eventually attack them and German Intelligence had a pretty fair assessment of Soviet industrial production numbers. And of course they knew well the troop numbers they would be facing. Based on that data the German High Command and Hitler realized that delay in the start of a war between themselves and the Soviets would be fatal. That what might be possible in 1941 would be far more difficult in 42 and quite impossible by 1943. Which is of course in essence the course that events took with Soviet mobilization and production steadily ramping up more and more over the course of the war.
There are several wild cards within that strategic picture that proved fatal to the Germans.
First The Germans had not intended to go to war with France and the UK in 39. The Western Allies' history of appeasement and diplomacy gave him no reason to believe they would. The reoccupation of the Rhein Industrial area, the annexation of Austria, the Sudetenland and then the rest of Czechoslovakia had met with nothing more than diplomatic protests. Why would the occupation of Poland be any different especially since the Molotov - Ribbentrop pact guaranteed the non response of the Soviets. And in essence despite their declaration of war the French and British did absolutely nothing to help the Poles. Hitler continued to hope for a negotiated peace with the western Allies throughout the Winter of 39-40 and even after the fall of France had hopped for a negotiated peace with the British. Given his experience before September of 39 that's not an unreasonable hope. Unfortunately for him it was a vain hope.
The second wildcard in the strategic situation was the Italian's military adventurism in the Balkans and North Africa. Hitler had no wish to be involved in either campaign but found it necessary to prop up his Italian allies or risk having a war on his doorstep with an Italian capitulation on top of that. Which is again, essentially what happened in 43 anyway. North Africa was bad enough as a drain on precious resources but the Balkans was absolutely untenable since almost all of the Axis oil supply came from that region. The timing the Italians picked for their campaign against Greece and the other Balkan states was particularly poor as it occurred just as the German logistical system was gearing up for Barbarossa and it caused a critical delay in the start of the campaign. Those precious weeks may likely have been the difference between the conquest of Moscow in early Autumn and being stopped at the gates in December.
The third wildcard was the Japanese decision to go forward with their conquest of the Philippines and the Southern Resource area rather than an attack on Siberia and the Northern Resource area. The Japanese had their own reasons for doing so best left to another discussion but suffice it to say involving the US in the shooting war pretty well sealed the doom of the Axis. By late 1942 Germany was expending ever more resources trying to stop the flow of materials to the Soviets from the Western Allies and was already starting to lose that struggle. While it is true that Germany had no obligation to declare war on the USA it's also logical to assume that Hitler had some hope that it would encourage the Japanese to do the same with the USSR. Unfortunately for him this was not the case. And even had the Germans not chosen to go to war with the USA it was assured that now that they were at war as well with another Axis nation they would continue to increase the supply of munitions, arms, foodstuff, raw materials and everything else that would be needed by the Soviets to win the war.
So the plan in 1942 was simple, secure the primary oil producing area of the Caucasus which would of course deny the Russians use of said supply as well, push forward in Africa to cut off the Suez Canal and deny that passage to the use of the Allies while possibly securing additional oil supplies in the Middle East and get both objectives accomplished before the USA could train and ship armies to the Western Front and before they could supply the Soviets with too much material assistance to be overcome. But it was simply too much by that point. There was too much front to guard in Russia from counter attack, too many troops on guard duty in Western Europe, too many German resources in North Africa and not enough support from the other Axis Nations to get it all done.
And for THAT we can all be eternally grateful, because a world run by the Nazis and the Imperial Japanese Army would not be a pleasant one to contemplate.
The more I listen is the more I am convinced that the history books are full of lies.
This was a great piece of analysis, giving a fascinating insight. Thank you TIK. You are always worth watching.
TIK, ever read "Islam and Nazi Germany's war"?
Thanks tik. Love your work
I'm a simple man. TIK uploads, I watch. Multiple times.
Thanks for the detailed accounting of why there was no breakout at Stalingrad. I finally have a complete picture, after decades of confusion on the topic. For your own good, you should consider putting Stalingrad aside for quite a while. Remember, you experienced extreme burnout over this topic. Best regards.
I don't think others will let me wait too long to continue Stalingrad
@@TheImperatorKnight Well, they've waited for Frank and Glanz. So, they can wait for you. One should never let the tail wag the dog. You are a historian of note in your own right. Don't work yourself into exhaustion just to please a few impatient fans. Good health is paramount.
@@TheImperatorKnight Then may I add my voice to the camp of long term health is more important , I would much rather prefer to get good stuff several years from now , then you suffering a burnout and perhaps not touching this subject again.
This is absolutely fascinating. Thank you for making a video on this.
Should have listen to Keitel...not invade Russia
Great! TiK posts! Bloody brilliant. Cheers from Tennessee
❤❤❤❤❤ Another Tenn Fan !!!!
@@lynnmcculloch-m4h Actually, no. I'm a retired vet and I follow Army football and I went to a number of different colleges. KU, UNC and U of F. Even have credits from American University Bonn W. Germany. LoL. Cheers
Good job on this one Tik!
Fantastic, balanced, non-biased perspective. Content like this is why I subscribe. Well done! ~RS
Great video as always TIK. Greetings from Brazil 🙋🏾♂️
Always an immediate watch!
This is you at the top of your game. Kudos!