A very late reply to this but I must admit ASL is a game I'd love to try and explore but I have a hard enough time finding people locally to play war games with as is. I suspect part of this is due to the nature of board game culture in the UK, at least from my experience so far. From my experience it seems as though local options fall down to miniature games which are dominated by Games Workshop (admittedly I there is a small group I play Flames of War with from time to time) or the board game scene appears to be dominated by various fantasy/sci-fi adventures or various other coop games. An excellent video and a great discussion. Keep up the excellent content.
Regarding that discussion at the end, I always felt that the main problem with getting new gamers into wargames was the lack of good "introductory" heavy wargames. Whilst it is fairly simple to delve into the (excellent) C&C system, it does not offer the depth and complexity of may of the Hex & Counter or Area Impulse games (to name a few general systems). On the other hand, getting into those heavier sort of games can be very difficult without a patient and experienced teacher. I think that if there were more games that offered a good breakdown of the "more advanced" systems or were more "user-friendly" (in regards to less experienced players, that is), the hobby would certainly get an additional boost of new and/or younger gamers. After all, war is as fascinating a subject and as appealing a way of approaching history as it ever was. The gamers are surely still there - we just need to make it easier for them to delve into some of these advanced systems.
man, another great one. I nearly lost it there at the end with Judd's number 1 especially when Greg tried to stop him. Funny stuff guys, really enjoyable watching the three of you talk games but this one really worked well in showing that the three of you don't always agree. Very enjoyable video fellas. Keep it up!
Being around since a certain era does not automatically mean you're still one of the best objectively. It's like Warhammer 40K. I'm a huge fan of the setting but the game itself is in its genre probably bypassed by many systems. However you have a large playerbase that slides it on to the next. Same with ASL (although I suspect it'll probably be shrinking at least somewhat). Also ASL like Warhammer 40K at their own 'segment' of the hobby are wargames with a 'pedigree' which also helps.
Fortress Europa is a great 2 player game. With 3 or 4 , it is a bit of a beer and beer game, no pretzels need apply. Some of my most tense games that went down to the very end were of Fortress Europa 2 player. The Milton Bradley version of course. There is a card which was house ruled that the US Player had to cry out "Wolverines" when it was played.
The ZOC system in Ardennes '44 (and Normandy '44, for that matter) is called "ZOC Bonds" - basically, any two friendly units with ZOCs that are 1 Hex apart project a "ZOC Bond" into that Hex (or Hexside), which prohibits enemy units from entering / crossing it.
I'm kind of along with what Judd said here. I'm of the mind that there's just something broken with the BGG ranking system. I'm not saying they are going about it the wrong way necessarily but I think there are enough variables over when people decide to rate a game (did they just buy it? how many plays? do they still feel the same after 20 plays or 20 years?), the Kickstarter rating effect and the variability around raters based on the pre-buy buzz versus actual purchases as measurement of popularity. So I think some games get stuck in high rankings which seem to require a meteoric shot to the target to get anything else to get by it.
1. We wargamers owe a lot to Twilight Struggle. It put GMT on the map and it spread among non wargamers. The moment such an aweful game like Pandemic Legacy (which simply destroys your components just to be able to resell each year a new copy) will get to number one on BGG, you'll realise the remarks on this game were not very smart. Yes, TS is too competitive for most of us wargamers. But wargaming and certainly GMT profited from this game, so great little projects of love like the upcoming Dauntless could be published too !.... 2. Combat Commander is only on place 6 ... because it is published and greatly supported by GMT... If Conflict of Heroes or Band of Brothers would have been published by GMT they would be up there in the top 10 too. Certainly the solo system of CoH is simply superb for wargamers. Without the complexity of Enemy Ardennes it succeeds in every way, at the same time if it would be in the hands of GMT, we would have had already all theaters covered and more..... 3. The list was quite good actually.
Great video! While I agree with Bart on the "intimidation factor" of ASL, its hard to say anything negative about a tactical level wargame that's been around since 1977, and continues to produce new material. The ASL starter kits are a great idea, I'd take it even a step further by suggesting a deluxe starter/core game. I bought SL when it first came out, liked it, but then got thrown off the horse with the changes that came with the follow on games as the system evolved. In one of the original SL expansions, I think it was Cross of Iron, the AFV rules from SL were scraped and replaced. ASL, even though I'm not a player of it, is much revered by me.
I was almost thrown off the horse of Squad Leader by GI: Anvil of Victory, with the introduction of ELR among other things. When ASL came out, I was still enough of a fan to give it a try, but it did not click. It wasn't until the Avalon Hill Game Assist Program (GAP) came out for my Apple II that I figured out what was going on. I've stayed with it since.
In watching you guys do your HAMTAG videos, I have given serious consideration to trying one or more of the ASL starter kits. You do a great service to ASL, you should consider doing a HAMTAG video on it. I mean, the game has been around in one form or another for nearly 40 years.
+Robert Moffatt Thanks Robert. I've thought about each of us doing a video where we spend some individual time with our favorite game and go into a little more depth. I have not pitched that to Judd and Greg yet. Bart
I enjoyed helping Chad design and play test the Combat Commander series. Yes it is abstract but it works. The system is smooth and well thought out. Private Adamson, American battle field promotion.
Thanks for this thoughtful analysis. Appreciate this is controversial, as 'overrated' suggests highly rated or that it has aged badly (compared to new designs) eg. Diplomacy was excellent as a fanzine or club hosted PBM. I liked your occasional comparisons and suggestions: 5. Successors, Diplomacy, Ogre GEV 4. Ardennes'44, D-Day dice, No Retreat (Russian front) 3. Hammer of the Scots, Fortress America, Twilight Struggle 2. StarWars X-Wing, COIN, Combat Commander (Europe) 1. Combat Commander (Pacific), ASL, Fire in the Lake Academics who have surveyed the 'Wargame' population, say we are only 200-300k with a high average age (and climbing fast). The publishers and marketing people know this and it is inevitable that new games will reflect that.
I think as the board game hobby continues to grow so will the war games. But they will continue to be different from the old hex and counter war games.
@@BondingWithBoardGamesRPGs There are certainly some great designers and wonderfully innovative games comming out now. We are probably in a golden age of gaming right now! But in 10-20 years? I wonder...
Loved the comments about Combat Commander. I recently learned it and wondered why it has such high marks on BGG. It feels more like a story telling engine than a tactical game because it emphasizes luck and random events while minimizing the impact of tactical decisions. It's cool, but not my favorite flavor of tactical game. Glad I'm not alone in that observation.
+Daveydavedave The one that killed it all for me is that mission in Combat Commander where para troopers drop behind you in a "real" firefight. Not once in history would paratroopers drop over a firefight. But some (non war) gamers found it incredibly realistic and fun ... among a few "famous" streamers of ... eurogames. Since that day I never looked back to it (nor that streamer). These men should stick to playing Carcassonne really.
I tried No Retreat I think it captures well the change from an early German superiority in quality to an overwhelming Soviet Army and the reversal in the direction the front is moving, however it kind of forces you into the same patterns which deducts from the re-playability of the game. That being said I think it's a good hex game and the rules are simpler than most other hex games I tired.
+Alex Barney Vietnam 1965-75 by Victory Games (not Victory Point Games) is the gold standard if you are so dedicated. Hearts & Minds is a brilliant design for many reasons that I'll talk about in some future video we haven't shot. It is a Herman-based Card Driven Game. (or OPS-based CDG). Operation Pegasus is a pocket game on the relief of Khe Sahn with excellent rules covering helicopter logistics. Silver Bayonet & First Team: Vietnam are great games covering Operation Silver Bayonet. First Team is a mind-blowing solitaire game. Silver Bayonet uses hidden movement, so it only works if you have a 2nd player. If you like DVGs leader series, Phantom Leader is pretty cool.
As an ASL player I agree that the barrier to entry is enormous. I even get intimidated by it. Now, Combat Commander is a different animal. I love it as well. It may not be tactically accurate, but damn is it fun and chaotic and fast. And in many ways it's more fun than ASL sometimes, and that barrier to entry is a fraction of what ASL is.
+Gustavo Rocha We've pretty much got our next six mapped out but I would love to do our Top 5 Tac. Might have to rule out some of my constant top games of all time however just to keep the list interesting...with a disclaimer at the front of course...COH anyone?
Forgive me for going off topic. ...although I haven't gone though all HAMTAG videos yet ...but have you guys discussed the old West End Games tank Leader series? ( East & West ect.) I just got these and I would be curious for your evaluation of this old John Hill design ?
Chief, when are we going to see a review of the Dune Dice Game you did an unboxing of? Real interested in that. Also great to see HAMTAG sticking together, how is your solo channel making out?
+aerosailor1979 After I get back from BGG Con I will shoot the Review.. HAMTAG is going great...we are a bunch of characters. So far I'm thrilled with the solo channel. A lot of work keeping the content flowing but fun work. The day job and family still come first so I'm working a lot of late nights.
Hi guys... Love your videos. Would it be possible to consider doing a top 5 war games that is appropriate for kids say between 8 - 18 years. Thanks much. Milton.
We did a video a while back on beginner wargames. That's probably as close as we'll get (knock on wood). But any game on that list is playable by an interested, intelligent teenager. Not sure about younger than that. May have to start with the kind of games I/we did. Risk and Stratego were my 8-year-old games.
+Greg Schmittgens +Milton Chen I agree I think our Beginner war-game top 5 has some perfect games on there for ages 8-18. My eight year old has tried some games from command and colors series and the plastic soldier pieces really bring the action alive for him. Bart
Some great observations in this vid, guys. I'm sure there will be those who will scream against some of the conclusions, but they were all very reasonable. Also... definitely agree: CoIN + Herbert's Dune = The Kwisatz Haderach of the CoIN series.
Diplomacy was one of the games which got me introduced to wargaming. I loved it at that point. Then I didn't play it for many years and tried it again and discovered that the magic had disappeared simply because everybody had gotten more experienced and knew all the tricks, so nobody could be convinced of anything.... it just ended up with people not bothering trying to form alliances. Now... in a game where you have actual military force behind your arguments, like Empires in Arms, the diplomacy is much better.
agree on D-day Dice. too much chrome, etc; not enough substance. I've enjoyed DVG Warfighter WWII much more so. Haven't had chance to play it yet with a friend; but solitaire is challenging and a lot of fun. WF certainly isn't perfect. There are some optional things you can use in the system that I don't think add much to the game play; but the good part about those is you can ignore them.
You guys are wonderful--so much better and informative than Dice Tower and other similar format groups explaining wargames. Loving all your work. I did like the comment of a COIN series in space! Honestly if I could find a game like that with reasonable asymmetry and replay-ability then I would purchase. I am writing this as I watch through the review. Now I am questioning Fire in the Lake! Ugh.
I hear they are working on COIN in space right now. I’m not sure about any detail but something is happening. Tom at The Dice Tower gave me and HAMTAG our start so he deserves some of the credit. 😁
Twilight Struggle is the best game that I got sick of playing. It's a good system, except for the fact that way too many swing events come down to one single die roll. The war events, the very first coup, the quagmire/bear trap event. You could be playing great but one of those die rolls completely screws over your game and 2-3 hours of effort is out the window. Also way too much of the game rides on the luck of your starting hand. If you get low cards or a ton of scoring cards first turn, you might as well shake your opponent's hand and concede. It's also tough teaching to new people because you HAVE to know a bunch of events before hand to be at all competitive. They really need to publish a new player helper that hightlights the most "gotcha" events (mostly in the early war): DeGalle, Blockade, Japan, Egypt, the war cards, Muslim Revolutions.
Hey, I wondered what had happened to HAMTAG on the Dice Tower. Here you are. What happened? So glad I found you. Just subscribed. My WarGame collection continues to grow. Keep the reviews coming, guys. For what it's worth, I feel that war-games are the ultimate expression of what boardgames should be. But I did grow up with Risk.
Nothing bad happened with the Dice Tower. Tom and I are still buds. I was getting burned out in general. When that happens to me I either stop what I'm doing or radically change it. Went for change and started my own channel. Tom lends advice and plugged my channel on the DT when it first came out. Bart
Bart Brunscheen That's great. Hope that you boys will expand and promote all the war games you can get your hands on. Play test new games the way they do on DT and introduce us to everything new and old. Looking forward to it all.
+David Curtis Watts Judd is doing some great reviews of war-games on the channel and very soon we will shoot a rapid fire solitaire game episode to mirror his geek list of 30 solos in 30 days...At first i thought it was a Han thing...Chief
You guys are not only easy to watch, your personalities all compliment each other. I love wargames and love HAMTAG talking about wargames, but I'd pretty much watch you guys talk about anything. It's like me reading Stephen King. I'd read his shopping list just to read what he wrote. By the way, thanks for NOT discussing your grocery shopping...
Before watching the video I'll throw in my picks: Risk- Obviously Axis & Allies- WHY IS THIS STILL SO POPULAR? The is zero decision making. The optimum first turn has been exactly scripted. 90% of the options aren't worth doing. You're just building infantry or building transports to get infantry places. NO OTHER PIECES ARE WORTH BUILDING. EVER. 2 infantry is always better than 1 armor, even when attacking. Technology isn't worth it. Naval units (other than transports for USA & Britian) aren't worth it. You follow the first turn script exactly, build nothing but infantry, and then it's just up to the dice. Even Risk has more decision making to it. The one and only reason people still play this game is because of the WWII theme. Samurai Swords/Shogun/Ikusa is a much much better entry in the Game Masters series. Battle Cry/Memoir '44- Whoever gets the better cards wins. Whoever gets the all out attack card will probably win. Most of the scenarios are very unbalanced. For some reason the games are still hugely popular. Ogre- Steve Jackson games to me have always been 100% theme 0% game. The idea of Ogre is cool, but there is one optimum setup to use and one optimum script to follow. No decisions, just who gets luckier with the dice. Diplomacy- Imbalanced sides, players being crippled with no chance to win but they have to keep playing. WAY too long playtime for the payoff. Cosmic Encounter- Some people consider it a war game. This game is TERRIBLE, but popular just because it's a "classic". Game design has evolved a lot since the 70. It's time to let this one go. Fortress America- Not quite as scripted as Axis & Allies, but still not varied enough. To me, it always felt like it was frustrating to one of the players. In the early game, the America player is frustrated by being overwhelmed. From mid to late game, the invading player is frustrated by stalling out and partisan attacks. It just never seemed to have a satisfying equilibrium; straight from flipping frustration from one player to another.
A word about COIN. I think COIN was a rather ingenious way of implementing the mechanical simplicity of euros into board wargames. If you don't care for most euros, you probably won't care for COIN.
As a miniature wargame I have to disagree. I don't play X-Wing but it's so high up because it has prepainted minis, a good IP and excellent mechanics while being pushed by a popular publisher. Hence it has reach, appeal and accessibility. To us miniature wargamers X-Wing could be a lifestyle game but many of us also see at as an excellent gateway game. As for the 'dicefest'. Miniature wargaming is about positioning and risk mitigation. As for Pacific vs Europe. Pacific Commander is more exotic, rarer thematically and more interesting thematically to many.
The only Mark Herman game I have is SPQR (that game is great!) although I have thought about buying The Peloponnesian War. I have watched a couple of reviews and play-throughs of the COIN-series and it's not for me. And, yes, the barrier of entry in ASL is too big for me. I've tried it a number of times but *sigh* those who played were either to caught up in the game or bad at teaching. This was in the 90's before ASL Starter Kit.
Dear friends, I must to give one sugestion... Please make vizual grafic with game name, when you speak about specific game. When I try to find something I need to search for 20 minutes, becouse I can not view topic. All other things, guys you are simply GREAT!
In more recent shows we either have the game on set or I will put a photo graphic in while we speak. Thanks for the feedback Nino. Always trying to make the show better. Chief
(Sigh) Okay..... mind racing at the moment. First... Keep doing what you are doing. A voice for the board wargame is soooo important. Greg, I can relate to many things you are saying. I'm 59 and I see the aging of the grognard. I see the price of our games being an issue for those new to the experience. And we are closer to the veterans of WWII and Korea and Vietnam.. so there is my interest in those topics. However... to Greg and Judd... X-Wing... boys... Stop it. This community is amazing. How many participants at the WBC were playing ASL? X-Wing world championships a couple of weeks ago had 260 players in one location. The Nationals at GenCon had 250 players. Two Regionals that I attended had 90+ each. Players at the Worlds were from all over the world. National Champions from Australia, France, Germany, Poland, Spain, and the list goes on. Judd, no it isn't like Wings of War/Glory. Wings of War/Glory is static and unchangeable. You pick your plane and play.. You have Eddie Rickenbacher's Spad but it is no different than any other spad. You fly Luke Skywalker in an X-Wing and it is different than a Rookie pilot. Plus X-Wing has variables that can be included or deleted from various ships. Yes I am an avid supporter for this game. But please just don't causally dismiss this as not being a war game. And Greg, yes, you close and roll some dice. But then what do you do? You get the hell out of the way and continue to jockey for position to get another chance to strike and take no damage. I am one of the older players but being with the young guys sure makes it fun and my son and I (he is now 29 and been playing war games since he was 5..started out with Battletech.) It makes me feel young as well and I've been accepted as a member of the group.. the old grumpy member but a memeber. ASL is still my all time favorite PvP. B-17 Queen of the Skies is my all time favorite solitare game. I am glad to see Judd on wargamers pay if forward. that is a wonderful group of people. Thanks guys for getting my blood pressure up. And great job. Chief, keep up the great work. Mark Tippett, Grognard since 1968
+Mark Tippett I played the game on a weekly basis. I had a lot of fun with it. I think it would be a blast if they transported it to the Babylon 5 universe because there, your ships would be obeying the laws of physics. But the 3rd dimension would be a bear to game.
Hey Judd, did you ever play the Babylon 5 board game. I still have it. Not much tactical but interesting. I have the major expansions but could generate little interest.
I used to own Babylon 5 Wars. It was like Star Fleet Battles for B5. I traded it, though. I also had the horrible B5 CCG. I guess it's not bad if you pour lots of money into the game, but the starter decks by themselves are worthless. I never played the modular game, if that's what you are talking about. The problem with B5 is that it has a very limited audience. :(
Yeah I understand that. I still have the B5Wars some where, but was talking about the modular game. We actually did play that a few times. The Star Trek Combat Simulator did see a great deal of play and I still own that as well. But now the big thing with the kids (the 20 to 30 somethings I game with) is X-Wing, Armada (I actually won a store championship playing that...even a blind hog finds an acorn once in a while), and Netrunner.
Interesting to hear Judd mention Astra Titanus as a better version of the Ogre idea. I don't really know wargames (though I enjoy the HAMTAG videos) but I do own Astra Titanus so it's nice to hear that a wargamer like Judd rates it as a decent example of its type.
Well, Fire in the Lake was my first COIN game and I love it, so much I got A Distant Plain (which I also enjoy), so there is that. I love the approach to the themes. Theme has a lot to do with it: most wargames I've played are about Napoleon, the First World War and the Second World War - and that's fine but helps explain why I rate both COIN games so high: there aren't many good games about these themes. I've played Empire of the Suns, by Mark Herman, and yes, it's a very good game that I'd love to own BUT the thing is I'm not that interested in the theme - this impacts the rating.
I have been wargaming since 1976. Most of the COIN games are, if you compare to say Twilight Struggle, more ofs hybrid wargames if you will. but at the end of the day, neither COIN, nor TS are really truly wargames, per se, in their truiest (read that traditional) sense.
I'm guessing that Greg isn't much of a miniature wargamer, but I might suggest him to take a look at an old WWII miniature game called 'Crossfire' - it would certainly show that not all miniature wargames are about "move first, roll well" ;) (But I totally agree, X-wing IS overrated!)
So I did go take a look. . .at crossfire.wargaming.info/. Not a whole lot of info there, but the rules themselves do appear to be in print. How easily could a newbie get into Crossfire? Based on my initial look, it's pretty dependent on sufficient terrain. Is that a big expenditure? But you're right. It looks to be outside my simplified field of view.
Glad to see that it's back in print, I didn't know that myself. It does require a lot of terrain, yes, but if you're just starting out, I'd suggest getting yourself some felt mats, and cut out some irregular shapes for woods/shrubbery etc. because you do need quite a lot of terrain for the game to really work. As for miniatures etc. you could probably use some of the counters from Conflict of Heroes or similar games with bigger counters for your first initial couple of games. So in short, I'd say It should be relatively easy to get into giving a go.
The module is a work of art in a live setting. The last time I played it by e-mail, it was a drag. I prefer to play where I play my headline card, insert 3 spaces, and then flip mine. You get my log, and start recording. When you see the 3 spaces, you insert yours and flip and then you see mine flip. That keeps it moving along. But the module wouldn't let me flip my card until both were out there. I haven't played it since. I guess I could go in and make the module more suited for PBEM, but I just don't like the game that much.
No vehicles in any version of Combat Commander. I believe that is a design decision/direction from Chad Jensen. But I'm not totally up on the background.
+Greg Schmittgens I think one of the folio expansions actually did include a tank option - might be Fall of the West but not sure (my CC stuff is currently packed away)
It is about infantry combat true. But having been in an infantry unit I can tell u there is nothing better then a tank in front of u. They could easily be worked in if the designers wanted them. But that's up to CC designers.
ASL, Up Front, Twilight Struggle, Coin - all systems which can make great games, but have very little correspondence with reality. And people today don't have time to either learn or play them.
+John Kantor I don't agree with this. I was a medic in a Light Infantry company and while games don't perfectly or really come close to simulated combat I think they show you a lot about fire and movement, ground troops supporting armor, movement under fire...I also think TS conveys the feelings and problems from a grand scale in the Cold War and COIN shows very nice asymmetrical modern military problems...and Up Front gave you some fog of war which is very hard to get in a perfect information war game. They offer quite a lot to reality...heck playing B-17 Queen of the Skies as a kid really brought home the horror and sudden death of what war is. Chief
+E Bur Our community is too small to talk about - terrible war games -. So please do not go that way. Besides I know a few wargames that are hated on BGG while I have a real love for them. It would not end well at all.
Good thoughts overall... but Twilight Struggle is a war game. Going to war doesn't end the game (and they occur often in the game). Going to DEFCON 1 and unleashing the nukes ends the game, since the cold war went hot. Combat Commander is AMAZING (Europe of course). I own several tactical systems, including Conflict of Heroes, Band of the Brothers, Memoir, etc... CC:E is the best overall game, so it's not overrated. The others are fun for what they do, but if I was to be asked to keep one, it'd be CC:E with no hesitation whatsoever. One of my only two 10s on BGG (the other being TS), though after playing it many times digitally, I can see where the card knowledge comes into play (and I'm gaining it too!) :)
I agree about Twilight Struggle. Various wars in that period (Korea, Arab-Israeli, Iran-Iraq, Pakistan-India, brush wars which can reignite) all play a part. Coups continually happen and they weren't all bloodless. Just because a) the game doesn't include nuclear annihilation as an option and b) the game resolves military conflicts at a macro-level along with other economic and political factors doesn't mean it can't be called a wargame. But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
+Kevin L. Kitchens (klkitchens) I disagree. Paratroopers landing over a firefight is so ridiculous, it shows CC is a joke in simulating things. It is just there because it sits bright in these awesome shiny GMT boxes on dealer's shelves. I think it is indeed - by far - the worst of the tactical systems at the moment. Almost anything other is ten times better.
The BoBo paratroopers landing wouldn't be planned, but of could and probably did happen from time to time. and that is what makes it so great. Those unplanned things are excellent.
Yet another great video. Have you guys done a top 5 solo war game list? I am finding it more and more difficult to get game time that lines up with others' schedules.
I can't agree more with your star wars x-wing, or other miniatures, opinion. I got excited and bought a ton of them as my first board game/miniatures game, and when we actually played it it was extremely basic and I was bored by the second round
Gentlemen if you please, Its time the sun set on twilight struggle. I think Combat commander's success is fueled by new wargamers. The barrier of entry for ASL has never been lower, Begin with starter kit and work your way up. Anything rated higher then ASL is overrated. Low counter density within an eastern front game can work if its tactical (see H&S GAMES upcoming Ostfront). Thankyou for your time.
My take on an overrated game: "The Civil War" / Victory games. It's a good classic game, but I've never found out how to play it without the strategy part in it disappearing when at some point the south can no longer risk having its army not in one place. It always ended up in monster stacks. And for that reason, I don't get that it's rate just above "World in Flames", which I find a solid 10.
Pretty much agree with Comat Commander being overrated. ASL and COIN series maybe. But not Successors as it wasn't talked about much like others. What Bart picks four out of five are not wargames actually and so the charge might be wrongly placed. I go with Judd's choice mostly.
Good discussion. I like the well informed reasons you guys gave for your picks. So many lists like this are full of reasons that feel more like whims or snark. But the convoluted logic to shoe horn Diplomacy in there was silly. It felt lazy. And Fortress America doesn't belong. It's Ameritrash in its fullest form and should be enjoyed as such. Thinking of it as a war game would ruin the fun.
Great video again. Regarding the digression about the aging audience of wargames, what would you recommend as an entry wargame for 20-30 yo already boardgamer? I've seen your video about introductory wargames, but this is more specifically about the already young boardgamers. play quite often with friends and chose 1775 Rebellion for instance that worked quite well. Falling Sky didn't. Greetings from Switzerland :)
Haha.... "Eu*Ro*Gamers" ... Took me a while ... but yeah... I haven't played Twilight Struggle yet, but from what I've seen I really wondered why it was called a "wargame" and I had the feeling (from several reviews) that knowing the deck was way too important.
Do one on the top five mechanics and top chromes, yeah that repetition syndrome/ top break through games and the most stupid rule ever. top 5 most obscure eras, Think there's only one game of The Indian mutiny British Empire ect Role play with Strategy?
I have the first edition of "Fortress America"… Kansas City is on my board. I bought it for the plastic mini's, and haven't looked back… try "Tobruck" from AH, or "Arab-Israeli War"… so many games that are better than them...
Judd... IF you like "Tactical"... try "Warfighter" by DVG games... Now I know you aren't a solo gamer, but Warfighter can be a multi-player game if everybody takes one soldier each as you can go through the mission. "Memoir 44"??? Try house rule this game... use a good game mechanic and use it with your mini's game. It's more appealing... just like "Battle Cry"
+Bonding With Board Games Did check out that video... the thing I like about Judd is his intelligence, and intensity to really "ring" the game experience when he plays. As the curious game player myself, I'm always tampering with the small stuff... trying to get more from the game system. I can only imagine Judd would be fun to sit across the table from, IF we both knew the game rules well. Here's a question?... I'm not up with the concept of the Vassel-Module thing... it sounds really interesting, but I am entirely mystified about it... also have never played any block games either... though they seem like an amazing challenge. I own "Wilderness War" but the rules are s till reading something akin to "stereo instructions", maybe it's just me... the mind works in frustrating ways. IF you have a yen... check out Marcowargamer's channel... he came up with some small publishers ("A Week in Hell", and "Phantom Menace") which are urban tactical warfare... he does a pretty good job of giving you the gist of how the game plays... and God only knows where he finds some of these small publisher games. It makes me wonder, ... who would be the better tactician between Judd and Greg... IF they played Tactics II, an ancient AH game, where the abstraction creates a more even playing field? Wish I had the patience to play ASL... have the big book but haven't tackled it yet... I was a little surprised to read that Greg prefers "Arab-Israeli War" over Panzer Blitz... I mean, each to his own... BUT my experience is that "Arab-Israeli War" is so stacked against the Arabs, why bother? Great counters, boards and such, but how can the Israeli's lose? For my tastes, I love the diversity of fighting machines and geography that Panzer Blitz and Panzer leader offer... the game offers a better "combined arms" approach, without the forever dice-chucking business of "Tobruk". What did you think of Mosby's Raiders, the solo AH game? That and "Blackbeard" are two of my most esoteric games.. I guess "Rictoffens War" can be added to that list as well. Take care and can't wait for more Hamtag...
Greg is a much better tactician than I am. That is one of the reasons I don't like Combat Commander. Greg taught it to me and I beat him. That is a sign that the game is broken. Greg taught me ASL and whooped me. The order of the universe is restored. He also trounced me in WWII: Barbarossa to Berlin and Wilderness War (and the dude is an awesome teacher). Then I won in Cuba Libre -- must be broken. :)
I'm afraid the war gaming demographic is aging up. I do love all the lighter war games coming into the market however. Both for myself (I'm a light weight) and because I think it brings in the younger generation.
Band of Brothers is completely over-rated. A single 2nd line German squad walks into two fully suppressed elite US paratroop squad's hex, and the paratroops die 80% of the time? That's anything but realistic. Sure the suppression system rocks, but those route checks make no sense.
I can think of them, too, but they aren't common. That's why Jim Krohn put so much research into the tactics of the war and made a system to model the tactics: assuming of course, that a player isn't going to do something asinine, such as put two squads in the open to get fully suppressed and then leave them there to get picked off in melee combat.
This Mark Herman cult?? ... I have, like, 10-12 games I would rate a 10 and I have *ZERO* Mark Herman games. ... and looking at what he has made, I have only been slightly tempted to buy a few of them. Like... I just bought "Falling sky", because it was the COIN game which sounded most interesting.... Fire in the Lake... not equal intriguing
+David Curtis Watts My point, exactly! I thought using Garth Brooks "Chris Gaines" album would be an apt comparison, also, but with a more limited audience.
Wow, not trying to be rude but I can't disagree on so many of your picks.... UGGGH.... Have I been gone that long from gaming and the DT that DT "reviewers" post that ASL, Twilight Struggle, Diplomacy, Combat Commander, and HOS are OVERRATED? Sad....
Fire in the lake. Overly complicated, and a shoehorned system. M44. Simply horrible CCA. See above but slightly better then M44 Sword of Rome: Too random for length
Do one on the top five mechanics and top chromes, yeah that repetition syndrome/ top break through games and the most stupid rule ever. top 5 most obscure eras, Think there's only one game of The Indian mutiny British Empire ect Role play with Strategy?
7 yrs later....I've found this.
I thoroughly enjoyed the conversation and angle where the discussion was focused on..
Great Stuff.!!
Great to have you viewing Advanced
A very late reply to this but I must admit ASL is a game I'd love to try and explore but I have a hard enough time finding people locally to play war games with as is. I suspect part of this is due to the nature of board game culture in the UK, at least from my experience so far. From my experience it seems as though local options fall down to miniature games which are dominated by Games Workshop (admittedly I there is a small group I play Flames of War with from time to time) or the board game scene appears to be dominated by various fantasy/sci-fi adventures or various other coop games.
An excellent video and a great discussion. Keep up the excellent content.
Thanks freefrag. Do me a favor and help spread the word.
Regarding that discussion at the end, I always felt that the main problem with getting new gamers into wargames was the lack of good "introductory" heavy wargames.
Whilst it is fairly simple to delve into the (excellent) C&C system, it does not offer the depth and complexity of may of the Hex & Counter or Area Impulse games (to name a few general systems). On the other hand, getting into those heavier sort of games can be very difficult without a patient and experienced teacher.
I think that if there were more games that offered a good breakdown of the "more advanced" systems or were more "user-friendly" (in regards to less experienced players, that is), the hobby would certainly get an additional boost of new and/or younger gamers. After all, war is as fascinating a subject and as appealing a way of approaching history as it ever was. The gamers are surely still there - we just need to make it easier for them to delve into some of these advanced systems.
russian campaign and battle for moscow? block games and cdg?
man, another great one. I nearly lost it there at the end with Judd's number 1 especially when Greg tried to stop him. Funny stuff guys, really enjoyable watching the three of you talk games but this one really worked well in showing that the three of you don't always agree. Very enjoyable video fellas. Keep it up!
+AstralHexEncounter Thanks Astra. We are having fun.
Being around since a certain era does not automatically mean you're still one of the best objectively. It's like Warhammer 40K. I'm a huge fan of the setting but the game itself is in its genre probably bypassed by many systems. However you have a large playerbase that slides it on to the next. Same with ASL (although I suspect it'll probably be shrinking at least somewhat). Also ASL like Warhammer 40K at their own 'segment' of the hobby are wargames with a 'pedigree' which also helps.
Fortress Europa is a great 2 player game. With 3 or 4 , it is a bit of a beer and beer game, no pretzels need apply. Some of my most tense games that went down to the very end were of Fortress Europa 2 player. The Milton Bradley version of course. There is a card which was house ruled that the US Player had to cry out "Wolverines" when it was played.
Awesome list. I really love when you guys get into depth in the explanation of the game and why it's on the list. Fired up
The ZOC system in Ardennes '44 (and Normandy '44, for that matter) is called "ZOC Bonds" - basically, any two friendly units with ZOCs that are 1 Hex apart project a "ZOC Bond" into that Hex (or Hexside), which prohibits enemy units from entering / crossing it.
Omer Hertz yep neat idea. advance any direction not so much. I've decided bulge games are not for me.
Thanks so much for this. I’ve been working too much of late and drifted away from my hobbies- y’all help to ground me. 👍👍
Thanks Tim.
Excellent explanations for the selections guys!
Another great video!
+john conner Thanks John. Chief
I'm kind of along with what Judd said here. I'm of the mind that there's just something broken with the BGG ranking system. I'm not saying they are going about it the wrong way necessarily but I think there are enough variables over when people decide to rate a game (did they just buy it? how many plays? do they still feel the same after 20 plays or 20 years?), the Kickstarter rating effect and the variability around raters based on the pre-buy buzz versus actual purchases as measurement of popularity. So I think some games get stuck in high rankings which seem to require a meteoric shot to the target to get anything else to get by it.
1. We wargamers owe a lot to Twilight Struggle. It put GMT on the map and it spread among non wargamers. The moment such an aweful game like Pandemic Legacy (which simply destroys your components just to be able to resell each year a new copy) will get to number one on BGG, you'll realise the remarks on this game were not very smart. Yes, TS is too competitive for most of us wargamers. But wargaming and certainly GMT profited from this game, so great little projects of love like the upcoming Dauntless could be published too !....
2. Combat Commander is only on place 6 ... because it is published and greatly supported by GMT... If Conflict of Heroes or Band of Brothers would have been published by GMT they would be up there in the top 10 too. Certainly the solo system of CoH is simply superb for wargamers. Without the complexity of Enemy Ardennes it succeeds in every way, at the same time if it would be in the hands of GMT, we would have had already all theaters covered and more.....
3. The list was quite good actually.
Great video! While I agree with Bart on the "intimidation factor" of ASL, its hard to say anything negative about a tactical level wargame that's been around since 1977, and continues to produce new material. The ASL starter kits are a great idea, I'd take it even a step further by suggesting a deluxe starter/core game. I bought SL when it first came out, liked it, but then got thrown off the horse with the changes that came with the follow on games as the system evolved. In one of the original SL expansions, I think it was Cross of Iron, the AFV rules from SL were scraped and replaced. ASL, even though I'm not a player of it, is much revered by me.
I was almost thrown off the horse of Squad Leader by GI: Anvil of Victory, with the introduction of ELR among other things. When ASL came out, I was still enough of a fan to give it a try, but it did not click. It wasn't until the Avalon Hill Game Assist Program (GAP) came out for my Apple II that I figured out what was going on. I've stayed with it since.
In watching you guys do your HAMTAG videos, I have given serious consideration to trying one or more of the ASL starter kits. You do a great service to ASL, you should consider doing a HAMTAG video on it. I mean, the game has been around in one form or another for nearly 40 years.
+Robert Moffatt Thanks Robert. I've thought about each of us doing a video where we spend some individual time with our favorite game and go into a little more depth. I have not pitched that to Judd and Greg yet. Bart
Well, the three of you are the best thing to happen to the hobby of wargaming that I've seen in the last several years. Keep up the great work!
I enjoyed helping Chad design and play test the Combat Commander series. Yes it is abstract but it works. The system is smooth and well thought out. Private Adamson, American battle field promotion.
Thanks Kris
Thanks for this thoughtful analysis. Appreciate this is controversial, as 'overrated' suggests highly rated or that it has aged badly (compared to new designs) eg. Diplomacy was excellent as a fanzine or club hosted PBM. I liked your occasional comparisons and suggestions:
5. Successors, Diplomacy, Ogre GEV
4. Ardennes'44, D-Day dice, No Retreat (Russian front)
3. Hammer of the Scots, Fortress America, Twilight Struggle
2. StarWars X-Wing, COIN, Combat Commander (Europe)
1. Combat Commander (Pacific), ASL, Fire in the Lake
Academics who have surveyed the 'Wargame' population, say we are only 200-300k with a high average age (and climbing fast). The publishers and marketing people know this and it is inevitable that new games will reflect that.
I think as the board game hobby continues to grow so will the war games. But they will continue to be different from the old hex and counter war games.
@@BondingWithBoardGamesRPGs There are certainly some great designers and wonderfully innovative games comming out now. We are probably in a golden age of gaming right now! But in 10-20 years? I wonder...
Loved the comments about Combat Commander. I recently learned it and wondered why it has such high marks on BGG. It feels more like a story telling engine than a tactical game because it emphasizes luck and random events while minimizing the impact of tactical decisions. It's cool, but not my favorite flavor of tactical game. Glad I'm not alone in that observation.
+Daveydavedave The one that killed it all for me is that mission in Combat Commander where para troopers drop behind you in a "real" firefight. Not once in history would paratroopers drop over a firefight. But some (non war) gamers found it incredibly realistic and fun ... among a few "famous" streamers of ... eurogames. Since that day I never looked back to it (nor that streamer). These men should stick to playing Carcassonne really.
+The BoBo I love carcassonne...and I've had those farmers drop in on my field like some kind of paratroop from the heavens...farmers
I tried No Retreat I think it captures well the change from an early German superiority in quality to an overwhelming Soviet Army and the reversal in the direction the front is moving, however it kind of forces you into the same patterns which deducts from the re-playability of the game. That being said I think it's a good hex game and the rules are simpler than most other hex games I tired.
Excellent video as always. You guys are awesome. Curious, what are some good Vietnam games?
+Alex Barney
Vietnam 1965-75 by Victory Games (not Victory Point Games) is the gold standard if you are so dedicated.
Hearts & Minds is a brilliant design for many reasons that I'll talk about in some future video we haven't shot. It is a Herman-based Card Driven Game. (or OPS-based CDG).
Operation Pegasus is a pocket game on the relief of Khe Sahn with excellent rules covering helicopter logistics.
Silver Bayonet & First Team: Vietnam are great games covering Operation Silver Bayonet. First Team is a mind-blowing solitaire game. Silver Bayonet uses hidden movement, so it only works if you have a 2nd player.
If you like DVGs leader series, Phantom Leader is pretty cool.
+Judd Vance You are asking questions in Judd language.
+Bonding With Board Games Thanks for the response Judd. I'll have to check some of these games out. Now if I can only find someone to play against.
If you can track down a copy of First Team: Vietnam, you don't have to. It's solitaire and doesn't feel like playing a solitaire game.
As an ASL player I agree that the barrier to entry is enormous. I even get intimidated by it. Now, Combat Commander is a different animal. I love it as well. It may not be tactically accurate, but damn is it fun and chaotic and fast. And in many ways it's more fun than ASL sometimes, and that barrier to entry is a fraction of what ASL is.
Very good points Valen...you are making me want to go play Combat Commander again
Combat Commander is great, at The Army War College, we played ASL.
Are you fellas in Kansas? I noticed the K-State shirt, and am a gamer in Manhattan, KS myself. Great show.
Yes. Wichita
Hey guys! What a wonderful work! Please, do a TOP 5 Tactical Wargames! HAMTAG!!!
+Gustavo Rocha We've pretty much got our next six mapped out but I would love to do our Top 5 Tac. Might have to rule out some of my constant top games of all time however just to keep the list interesting...with a disclaimer at the front of course...COH anyone?
Forgive me for going off topic. ...although I haven't gone though all HAMTAG videos yet ...but have you guys discussed the old West End Games tank Leader series? ( East & West ect.) I just got these and I would be curious for your evaluation of this old John Hill design ?
They may have been mentioned but nothing in great detail.
Chief, when are we going to see a review of the Dune Dice Game you did an unboxing of? Real interested in that. Also great to see HAMTAG sticking together, how is your solo channel making out?
+aerosailor1979 After I get back from BGG Con I will shoot the Review.. HAMTAG is going great...we are a bunch of characters. So far I'm thrilled with the solo channel. A lot of work keeping the content flowing but fun work. The day job and family still come first so I'm working a lot of late nights.
Hi guys... Love your videos. Would it be possible to consider doing a top 5 war games that is appropriate for kids say between 8 - 18 years. Thanks much. Milton.
We did a video a while back on beginner wargames. That's probably as close as we'll get (knock on wood). But any game on that list is playable by an interested, intelligent teenager. Not sure about younger than that. May have to start with the kind of games I/we did. Risk and Stratego were my 8-year-old games.
+Greg Schmittgens +Milton Chen I agree I think our Beginner war-game top 5 has some perfect games on there for ages 8-18. My eight year old has tried some games from command and colors series and the plastic soldier pieces really bring the action alive for him. Bart
Some great observations in this vid, guys. I'm sure there will be those who will scream against some of the conclusions, but they were all very reasonable.
Also... definitely agree: CoIN + Herbert's Dune = The Kwisatz Haderach of the CoIN series.
+Bobby F. Thanks Bobby, we are having a blast. Bring on Star Wars COIN.
Diplomacy was one of the games which got me introduced to wargaming. I loved it at that point.
Then I didn't play it for many years and tried it again and discovered that the magic had disappeared simply because everybody had gotten more experienced and knew all the tricks, so nobody could be convinced of anything.... it just ended up with people not bothering trying to form alliances.
Now... in a game where you have actual military force behind your arguments, like Empires in Arms, the diplomacy is much better.
Hammer of the Scots is absolutely a good choice. My wife got _so_ frustrated playing this one due to random elements.
Understood
Good show, not a complete wargamer but I appreciate the genre and your collective insight.
Thanks neeley. We have fun.
Great discussion; thx gents!
We have fun
agree on D-day Dice. too much chrome, etc; not enough substance. I've enjoyed DVG Warfighter WWII much more so. Haven't had chance to play it yet with a friend; but solitaire is challenging and a lot of fun. WF certainly isn't perfect. There are some optional things you can use in the system that I don't think add much to the game play; but the good part about those is you can ignore them.
You guys are wonderful--so much better and informative than Dice Tower and other similar format groups explaining wargames. Loving all your work. I did like the comment of a COIN series in space! Honestly if I could find a game like that with reasonable asymmetry and replay-ability then I would purchase. I am writing this as I watch through the review. Now I am questioning Fire in the Lake! Ugh.
I hear they are working on COIN in space right now. I’m not sure about any detail but something is happening. Tom at The Dice Tower gave me and HAMTAG our start so he deserves some of the credit. 😁
Re: VPG edition of no retreat - I agree, it is much cleaner and easier to play.
Twilight Struggle is the best game that I got sick of playing. It's a good system, except for the fact that way too many swing events come down to one single die roll. The war events, the very first coup, the quagmire/bear trap event. You could be playing great but one of those die rolls completely screws over your game and 2-3 hours of effort is out the window. Also way too much of the game rides on the luck of your starting hand. If you get low cards or a ton of scoring cards first turn, you might as well shake your opponent's hand and concede.
It's also tough teaching to new people because you HAVE to know a bunch of events before hand to be at all competitive. They really need to publish a new player helper that hightlights the most "gotcha" events (mostly in the early war): DeGalle, Blockade, Japan, Egypt, the war cards, Muslim Revolutions.
Great points dorpth
Hey, I wondered what had happened to HAMTAG on the Dice Tower. Here you are. What happened? So glad I found you. Just subscribed. My WarGame collection continues to grow. Keep the reviews coming, guys. For what it's worth, I feel that war-games are the ultimate expression of what boardgames should be. But I did grow up with Risk.
Nothing bad happened with the Dice Tower. Tom and I are still buds. I was getting burned out in general. When that happens to me I either stop what I'm doing or radically change it. Went for change and started my own channel. Tom lends advice and plugged my channel on the DT when it first came out. Bart
Bart Brunscheen That's great. Hope that you boys will expand and promote all the war games you can get your hands on. Play test new games the way they do on DT and introduce us to everything new and old. Looking forward to it all.
+David Curtis Watts Judd is doing some great reviews of war-games on the channel and very soon we will shoot a rapid fire solitaire game episode to mirror his geek list of 30 solos in 30 days...At first i thought it was a Han thing...Chief
You guys are not only easy to watch, your personalities all compliment each other. I love wargames and love HAMTAG talking about wargames, but I'd pretty much watch you guys talk about anything. It's like me reading Stephen King. I'd read his shopping list just to read what he wrote.
By the way, thanks for NOT discussing your grocery shopping...
Yet...and thanks
Interesting topic, thank you.
Thank you
Before watching the video I'll throw in my picks:
Risk- Obviously
Axis & Allies- WHY IS THIS STILL SO POPULAR? The is zero decision making. The optimum first turn has been exactly scripted. 90% of the options aren't worth doing. You're just building infantry or building transports to get infantry places. NO OTHER PIECES ARE WORTH BUILDING. EVER. 2 infantry is always better than 1 armor, even when attacking. Technology isn't worth it. Naval units (other than transports for USA & Britian) aren't worth it. You follow the first turn script exactly, build nothing but infantry, and then it's just up to the dice. Even Risk has more decision making to it. The one and only reason people still play this game is because of the WWII theme. Samurai Swords/Shogun/Ikusa is a much much better entry in the Game Masters series.
Battle Cry/Memoir '44- Whoever gets the better cards wins. Whoever gets the all out attack card will probably win. Most of the scenarios are very unbalanced. For some reason the games are still hugely popular.
Ogre- Steve Jackson games to me have always been 100% theme 0% game. The idea of Ogre is cool, but there is one optimum setup to use and one optimum script to follow. No decisions, just who gets luckier with the dice.
Diplomacy- Imbalanced sides, players being crippled with no chance to win but they have to keep playing. WAY too long playtime for the payoff.
Cosmic Encounter- Some people consider it a war game. This game is TERRIBLE, but popular just because it's a "classic". Game design has evolved a lot since the 70. It's time to let this one go.
Fortress America- Not quite as scripted as Axis & Allies, but still not varied enough. To me, it always felt like it was frustrating to one of the players. In the early game, the America player is frustrated by being overwhelmed. From mid to late game, the invading player is frustrated by stalling out and partisan attacks. It just never seemed to have a satisfying equilibrium; straight from flipping frustration from one player to another.
Nice line-up dorpth
Before I even started watching this, I already knew that Judd would have Combat Commander on this list.
A word about COIN. I think COIN was a rather ingenious way of implementing the mechanical simplicity of euros into board wargames. If you don't care for most euros, you probably won't care for COIN.
Judd in a nutshell
Way late on this but Red Dust Rebellion is coming
As a San Antonio partisan I agree that the omitting of KC was a travesty. Great job guys!
+LORDJAVI131
In the Ameri-trash video, I said that the new edition of Fortress America was "dead to me."
As a miniature wargame I have to disagree. I don't play X-Wing but it's so high up because it has prepainted minis, a good IP and excellent mechanics while being pushed by a popular publisher. Hence it has reach, appeal and accessibility. To us miniature wargamers X-Wing could be a lifestyle game but many of us also see at as an excellent gateway game. As for the 'dicefest'. Miniature wargaming is about positioning and risk mitigation. As for Pacific vs Europe. Pacific Commander is more exotic, rarer thematically and more interesting thematically to many.
Great incite Ronald. Thank you.
The only Mark Herman game I have is SPQR (that game is great!) although I have thought about buying The Peloponnesian War. I have watched a couple of reviews and play-throughs of the COIN-series and it's not for me.
And, yes, the barrier of entry in ASL is too big for me. I've tried it a number of times but *sigh* those who played were either to caught up in the game or bad at teaching. This was in the 90's before ASL Starter Kit.
Dear friends, I must to give one sugestion... Please make vizual grafic with game name, when you speak about specific game. When I try to find something I need to search for 20 minutes, becouse I can not view topic. All other things, guys you are simply GREAT!
In more recent shows we either have the game on set or I will put a photo graphic in while we speak. Thanks for the feedback Nino. Always trying to make the show better. Chief
Thank again fr a great video. 👍
U bet
(Sigh)
Okay..... mind racing at the moment.
First... Keep doing what you are doing. A voice for the board wargame is soooo important.
Greg, I can relate to many things you are saying. I'm 59 and I see the aging of the grognard. I see the price of our games being an issue for those new to the experience. And we are closer to the veterans of WWII and Korea and Vietnam.. so there is my interest in those topics.
However... to Greg and Judd... X-Wing... boys... Stop it.
This community is amazing. How many participants at the WBC were playing ASL?
X-Wing world championships a couple of weeks ago had 260 players in one location. The Nationals at GenCon had 250 players. Two Regionals that I attended had 90+ each. Players at the Worlds were from all over the world. National Champions from Australia, France, Germany, Poland, Spain, and the list goes on.
Judd, no it isn't like Wings of War/Glory. Wings of War/Glory is static and unchangeable. You pick your plane and play.. You have Eddie Rickenbacher's Spad but it is no different than any other spad. You fly Luke Skywalker in an X-Wing and it is different than a Rookie pilot. Plus X-Wing has variables that can be included or deleted from various ships. Yes I am an avid supporter for this game. But please just don't causally dismiss this as not being a war game.
And Greg, yes, you close and roll some dice. But then what do you do? You get the hell out of the way and continue to jockey for position to get another chance to strike and take no damage.
I am one of the older players but being with the young guys sure makes it fun and my son and I (he is now 29 and been playing war games since he was 5..started out with Battletech.) It makes me feel young as well and I've been accepted as a member of the group.. the old grumpy member but a memeber.
ASL is still my all time favorite PvP. B-17 Queen of the Skies is my all time favorite solitare game.
I am glad to see Judd on wargamers pay if forward. that is a wonderful group of people.
Thanks guys for getting my blood pressure up. And great job.
Chief, keep up the great work.
Mark Tippett, Grognard since 1968
+Mark Tippett
I played the game on a weekly basis. I had a lot of fun with it. I think it would be a blast if they transported it to the Babylon 5 universe because there, your ships would be obeying the laws of physics. But the 3rd dimension would be a bear to game.
+Mark Tippett Great points Mark.
Chief
Hey Judd, did you ever play the Babylon 5 board game. I still have it. Not much tactical but interesting. I have the major expansions but could generate little interest.
I used to own Babylon 5 Wars. It was like Star Fleet Battles for B5. I traded it, though. I also had the horrible B5 CCG. I guess it's not bad if you pour lots of money into the game, but the starter decks by themselves are worthless.
I never played the modular game, if that's what you are talking about. The problem with B5 is that it has a very limited audience. :(
Yeah I understand that. I still have the B5Wars some where, but was talking about the modular game. We actually did play that a few times.
The Star Trek Combat Simulator did see a great deal of play and I still own that as well. But now the big thing with the kids (the 20 to 30 somethings I game with) is X-Wing, Armada (I actually won a store championship playing that...even a blind hog finds an acorn once in a while), and Netrunner.
Interesting to hear Judd mention Astra Titanus as a better version of the Ogre idea. I don't really know wargames (though I enjoy the HAMTAG videos) but I do own Astra Titanus so it's nice to hear that a wargamer like Judd rates it as a decent example of its type.
+The Indie Ocean Especially Judd who has pet names for people who love Euro games....Chief
Well, Fire in the Lake was my first COIN game and I love it, so much I got A Distant Plain (which I also enjoy), so there is that. I love the approach to the themes. Theme has a lot to do with it: most wargames I've played are about Napoleon, the First World War and the Second World War - and that's fine but helps explain why I rate both COIN games so high: there aren't many good games about these themes. I've played Empire of the Suns, by Mark Herman, and yes, it's a very good game that I'd love to own BUT the thing is I'm not that interested in the theme - this impacts the rating.
COIN has stretched in a new direction for sure.
I have been wargaming since 1976. Most of the COIN games are, if you compare to say Twilight Struggle, more ofs hybrid wargames if you will. but at the end of the day, neither COIN, nor TS are really truly wargames, per se, in their truiest (read that traditional) sense.
Pretty thoughtful effort. Nice idea to explore this aspect. Keep up the good work.
Thanks. I need to get the gang back together again.
Do you play PC war games also? or is your interest mainly in these board games?
I'm guessing that Greg isn't much of a miniature wargamer, but I might suggest him to take a look at an old WWII miniature game called 'Crossfire' - it would certainly show that not all miniature wargames are about "move first, roll well" ;) (But I totally agree, X-wing IS overrated!)
So I did go take a look. . .at crossfire.wargaming.info/. Not a whole lot of info there, but the rules themselves do appear to be in print. How easily could a newbie get into Crossfire? Based on my initial look, it's pretty dependent on sufficient terrain. Is that a big expenditure? But you're right. It looks to be outside my simplified field of view.
Glad to see that it's back in print, I didn't know that myself. It does require a lot of terrain, yes, but if you're just starting out, I'd suggest getting yourself some felt mats, and cut out some irregular shapes for woods/shrubbery etc. because you do need quite a lot of terrain for the game to really work. As for miniatures etc. you could probably use some of the counters from Conflict of Heroes or similar games with bigger counters for your first initial couple of games. So in short, I'd say It should be relatively easy to get into giving a go.
I tend to take miniature wargames over regular wargames myself.
If it's Judd: Twilight Struggle plays very well on Vassal.
The module is a work of art in a live setting. The last time I played it by e-mail, it was a drag. I prefer to play where I play my headline card, insert 3 spaces, and then flip mine. You get my log, and start recording. When you see the 3 spaces, you insert yours and flip and then you see mine flip. That keeps it moving along. But the module wouldn't let me flip my card until both were out there.
I haven't played it since. I guess I could go in and make the module more suited for PBEM, but I just don't like the game that much.
ASL aside, I might have said the exact same words as the three of you. So glad I’m not the only one thinking the COIN series might be overrated.
👍
Wilderness War is my favorite war game.
Did Combat Commander ever allow you to play with Tanks?
No vehicles in any version of Combat Commander. I believe that is a design decision/direction from Chad Jensen. But I'm not totally up on the background.
+Greg Schmittgens
I think one of the folio expansions actually did include a tank option - might be Fall of the West but not sure (my CC stuff is currently packed away)
Combat Commander is about INFANTRY combat. The map scale doesn't allow for tanks.
It is about infantry combat true. But having been in an infantry unit I can tell u there is nothing better then a tank in front of u. They could easily be worked in if the designers wanted them. But that's up to CC designers.
That was an excellent video!
Great to see some opinions get a good airing.
+Bongo Clive Thank you Bongo...good times
Thumbs up just for that K-State polo!
You’ve made a friend
ASL, Up Front, Twilight Struggle, Coin - all systems which can make great games, but have very little correspondence with reality. And people today don't have time to either learn or play them.
+John Kantor I don't agree with this. I was a medic in a Light Infantry company and while games don't perfectly or really come close to simulated combat I think they show you a lot about fire and movement, ground troops supporting armor, movement under fire...I also think TS conveys the feelings and problems from a grand scale in the Cold War and COIN shows very nice asymmetrical modern military problems...and Up Front gave you some fog of war which is very hard to get in a perfect information war game. They offer quite a lot to reality...heck playing B-17 Queen of the Skies as a kid really brought home the horror and sudden death of what war is. Chief
So that means Judd that Fire in the Lake=Blind Faith =)
If it involves the Great One!!!
Great list, how about top 5 terrible war games you have played of all time or are no longer in your collection.
+E Bur
I could do ones not in my collection, but I haven't played 5 terrible wargames. I have played some pretty horrible Euros, though.
+E Bur Our community is too small to talk about - terrible war games -. So please do not go that way. Besides I know a few wargames that are hated on BGG while I have a real love for them. It would not end well at all.
Dune COIN? Holy shit that could work and be amazing!!
+Kyle Bailey YEP
Good thoughts overall... but Twilight Struggle is a war game. Going to war doesn't end the game (and they occur often in the game). Going to DEFCON 1 and unleashing the nukes ends the game, since the cold war went hot.
Combat Commander is AMAZING (Europe of course). I own several tactical systems, including Conflict of Heroes, Band of the Brothers, Memoir, etc... CC:E is the best overall game, so it's not overrated. The others are fun for what they do, but if I was to be asked to keep one, it'd be CC:E with no hesitation whatsoever. One of my only two 10s on BGG (the other being TS), though after playing it many times digitally, I can see where the card knowledge comes into play (and I'm gaining it too!) :)
I agree about Twilight Struggle. Various wars in that period (Korea, Arab-Israeli, Iran-Iraq, Pakistan-India, brush wars which can reignite) all play a part. Coups continually happen and they weren't all bloodless. Just because a) the game doesn't include nuclear annihilation as an option and b) the game resolves military conflicts at a macro-level along with other economic and political factors doesn't mean it can't be called a wargame. But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
+Kevin L. Kitchens (klkitchens) I disagree. Paratroopers landing over a firefight is so ridiculous, it shows CC is a joke in simulating things. It is just there because it sits bright in these awesome shiny GMT boxes on dealer's shelves. I think it is indeed - by far - the worst of the tactical systems at the moment. Almost anything other is ten times better.
The BoBo paratroopers landing wouldn't be planned, but of could and probably did happen from time to time. and that is what makes it so great. Those unplanned things are excellent.
+Kevin L. Kitchens (klkitchens)
Sainte-Mère-Église
+The BoBo I don't know about 10x better...I'll give you 1.25x better...Chief
Yet another great video. Have you guys done a top 5 solo war game list? I am finding it more and more difficult to get game time that lines up with others' schedules.
+TheProphet21
Go here: I'm playing 30 solitaire games in 30 days!
boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/198905/barteus-con-2015-convention-rest-us
+Judd Vance I'm going to try and get Judd to do a rapid fire review on all these games in his 30 solo 30...I'll call it the new Kessel run
+Judd Vance Thanks much
+Bonding With Board Games Looking forward to it
I can't agree more with your star wars x-wing, or other miniatures, opinion. I got excited and bought a ton of them as my first board game/miniatures game, and when we actually played it it was extremely basic and I was bored by the second round
Love the miniatures but yes game play lost me.
Gentlemen if you please,
Its time the sun set on twilight struggle.
I think Combat commander's success is fueled by new wargamers.
The barrier of entry for ASL has never been lower, Begin with starter kit and work your way up.
Anything rated higher then ASL is overrated.
Low counter density within an eastern front game can work if its tactical (see H&S GAMES upcoming Ostfront). Thankyou for your time.
My take on an overrated game: "The Civil War" / Victory games.
It's a good classic game, but I've never found out how to play it without the strategy part in it disappearing when at some point the south can no longer risk having its army not in one place. It always ended up in monster stacks.
And for that reason, I don't get that it's rate just above "World in Flames", which I find a solid 10.
What?! Heresy! Lol
I knew ASL would make someones list because....Rules.
Well, and chrome/dice rolling that passes as "realism'/detail.
A full step backward from the original (with the expansions) and I have said that for over 30 years.
Yep, TwilightStruggle is probably not a “war game”, but it’s a great game worth playing over and over.
It’s definitely a great game.
Pretty much agree with Comat Commander being overrated. ASL and COIN series maybe. But not Successors as it wasn't talked about much like others. What Bart picks four out of five are not wargames actually and so the charge might be wrongly placed. I go with Judd's choice mostly.
What is COIN?
Good discussion. I like the well informed reasons you guys gave for your picks. So many lists like this are full of reasons that feel more like whims or snark.
But the convoluted logic to shoe horn Diplomacy in there was silly. It felt lazy. And Fortress America doesn't belong. It's Ameritrash in its fullest form and should be enjoyed as such. Thinking of it as a war game would ruin the fun.
Thanks for commenting Cris. Good stuff.
Great video again. Regarding the digression about the aging audience of wargames, what would you recommend as an entry wargame for 20-30 yo already boardgamer? I've seen your video about introductory wargames, but this is more specifically about the already young boardgamers. play quite often with friends and chose 1775 Rebellion for instance that worked quite well. Falling Sky didn't.
Greetings from Switzerland :)
Haha.... "Eu*Ro*Gamers" ... Took me a while ... but yeah... I haven't played Twilight Struggle yet, but from what I've seen I really wondered why it was called a "wargame" and I had the feeling (from several reviews) that knowing the deck was way too important.
In hindsight... TS is a fine game. I have no problem with that deck knowledge is a major factor.
Do one on the top five mechanics and top chromes, yeah that repetition syndrome/ top break through games and the most stupid rule ever. top 5 most obscure eras, Think there's only one game of The Indian mutiny British Empire ect Role play with Strategy?
Great ideas, thanks Crop
Totally agree that TS is overrated! Disagree though about NRRF.
Understood
Successors is yet another piece of Berg tedious crap.
I have the first edition of "Fortress America"… Kansas City is on my board. I bought it for the plastic mini's, and haven't looked back… try "Tobruck" from AH, or "Arab-Israeli War"… so many games that are better than them...
+Jim Smith Good points
+Jim Smith keep up the good work guys... we can ALL discover new and forgotten games we might have missed... or listened to the hype too much.
Judd... IF you like "Tactical"... try "Warfighter" by DVG games... Now I know you aren't a solo gamer, but Warfighter can be a multi-player game if everybody takes one soldier each as you can go through the mission. "Memoir 44"??? Try house rule this game... use a good game mechanic and use it with your mini's game. It's more appealing... just like "Battle Cry"
+Jim Smith Judd is a big time solo war gamer. Check out his 30 games and 30 solo nights. Chief
+Bonding With Board Games Did check out that video... the thing I like about Judd is his intelligence, and intensity to really "ring" the game experience when he plays. As the curious game player myself, I'm always tampering with the small stuff... trying to get more from the game system. I can only imagine Judd would be fun to sit across the table from, IF we both knew the game rules well. Here's a question?... I'm not up with the concept of the Vassel-Module thing... it sounds really interesting, but I am entirely mystified about it... also have never played any block games either... though they seem like an amazing challenge. I own "Wilderness War" but the rules are s till reading something akin to "stereo instructions", maybe it's just me... the mind works in frustrating ways. IF you have a yen... check out Marcowargamer's channel... he came up with some small publishers ("A Week in Hell", and "Phantom Menace") which are urban tactical warfare... he does a pretty good job of giving you the gist of how the game plays... and God only knows where he finds some of these small publisher games. It makes me wonder, ... who would be the better tactician between Judd and Greg... IF they played Tactics II, an ancient AH game, where the abstraction creates a more even playing field? Wish I had the patience to play ASL... have the big book but haven't tackled it yet... I was a little surprised to read that Greg prefers "Arab-Israeli War" over Panzer Blitz... I mean, each to his own... BUT my experience is that "Arab-Israeli War" is so stacked against the Arabs, why bother? Great counters, boards and such, but how can the Israeli's lose? For my tastes, I love the diversity of fighting machines and geography that Panzer Blitz and Panzer leader offer... the game offers a better "combined arms" approach, without the forever dice-chucking business of "Tobruk". What did you think of Mosby's Raiders, the solo AH game? That and "Blackbeard" are two of my most esoteric games.. I guess "Rictoffens War" can be added to that list as well. Take care and can't wait for more Hamtag...
Greg is a much better tactician than I am. That is one of the reasons I don't like Combat Commander. Greg taught it to me and I beat him. That is a sign that the game is broken.
Greg taught me ASL and whooped me. The order of the universe is restored.
He also trounced me in WWII: Barbarossa to Berlin and Wilderness War (and the dude is an awesome teacher).
Then I won in Cuba Libre -- must be broken. :)
Also cannibalising of and customising of a game rules maps components, don't hear much about this,
HAMTAG!!!
+Daveydavedave HAMTAG!!!!
I started ASL when I was 25. I'm 30 now. But all the players here are 40+ yo tho
I'm afraid the war gaming demographic is aging up. I do love all the lighter war games coming into the market however. Both for myself (I'm a light weight) and because I think it brings in the younger generation.
I love Twilight Struggle. Who is the purple shirt bandit :p.
Judd Vance...He has his own fan base...call themselves the Juddaloes
Juddalosers* fixed that for you :p
Band of Brothers is completely over-rated. A single 2nd line German squad walks into two fully suppressed elite US paratroop squad's hex, and the paratroops die 80% of the time? That's anything but realistic. Sure the suppression system rocks, but those route checks make no sense.
Only a stupid American player would put two squads in the same hex.
Judd Vance wow..I can think of real world reasons why you would. poof there goes the Uber game. the vehicle combat is weak in this system too.
I can think of them, too, but they aren't common. That's why Jim Krohn put so much research into the tactics of the war and made a system to model the tactics: assuming of course, that a player isn't going to do something asinine, such as put two squads in the open to get fully suppressed and then leave them there to get picked off in melee combat.
Dune as a Coin game is right on the Money! Go HAMTAG!
COIN yes, amen.
This Mark Herman cult?? ... I have, like, 10-12 games I would rate a 10 and I have *ZERO* Mark Herman games. ... and looking at what he has made, I have only been slightly tempted to buy a few of them.
Like... I just bought "Falling sky", because it was the COIN game which sounded most interesting.... Fire in the Lake... not equal intriguing
That has changed...
I have way too many Mark Herman games now.
Chief, your wish has been granted! The Expanse = COIN in space
Boom. And ordered
You bashed the classic, Diplomacy!!!!! :(
Just talked about several games being overrated. No bashing.
Hook was rubbish!!!
+David Curtis Watts
My point, exactly! I thought using Garth Brooks "Chris Gaines" album would be an apt comparison, also, but with a more limited audience.
+David Curtis Watts Awww...I loved it...but I also liked Quigley Down Under...
Bonding With Board Games So did I, but Hook was still rubbish though.
Wow, not trying to be rude but I can't disagree on so many of your picks.... UGGGH.... Have I been gone that long from gaming and the DT that DT "reviewers" post that ASL, Twilight Struggle, Diplomacy, Combat Commander, and HOS are OVERRATED? Sad....
Just our list...what's yours?
Fire in the lake. Overly complicated, and a shoehorned system.
M44. Simply horrible
CCA. See above but slightly better then M44
Sword of Rome: Too random for length
Do one on the top five mechanics and top chromes, yeah that repetition syndrome/ top break through games and the most stupid rule ever. top 5 most obscure eras, Think there's only one game of The Indian mutiny British Empire ect Role play with Strategy?