Agreed. Unfortunately, LA and “woke Hollywood” has been an ageist culture for decades, and they’ve codified their own prejudice against older people/generations while maintaining this false righteousness of “wokeness”.
@@colincopland3665 The great irony is how often I hear the honorific "Ms." being pronounced 'miss' instead of 'miz'. The entire reason "Ms." was created back in the 1960s was because some feminists felt that "Miss" was parochial. They wanted something else, so "Ms." was created, Through continued usage over the decades, it became an accepted honorific. Seeing its pronunciation slip from 'miz' to 'miss', thereby returning it to sound like the honorific feminists were rejecting, is something I find amusing.
He's even on the record saying how he doesn't like world-building and all that, he only cares about the 2 hours the movie is playing (or whatever). And they put him in charge of the middle movie of a third trilogy.
My experience as a 62 year old woman still working at an office, is that the young people I work with think I’m an old lady who can’t teach them anything. After a while you give up trying to help and it’s frustrating. When I was younger I sought advice from older people and it helped me. Just because you can run circles around me when it comes to tech doesn’t mean you are smarter than me about everything else.
I’m 40 and I’m surrounded by a bunch of them and I laugh at their pronouns. Well your name is Rob no Sh*t your a he/him. Morons. Im glad I got to live a 1/4 of my life before social media.
Agree. I think some young people are just so full of ambitions that they are desperate to prove their values. The smart ones will quiet down a bit and be humble after they sense what working relationship or office politics like in the society. The arrogant ones will eventually learn the hard way, I have seen a few hitting the wall. One thing I cannot agree more, you character play a huge role in your entire career life. There is a saying: "If you possess great skills and didn't make it, it is your personalities".
I'm a 53 yo music producer. Music/Audio production is an incredibly complex thing, unlike so many people think, and it takes years/decades to become good at it. I'm telling you this because I encounter young people almost daily who just think they could make something incredible just because they breathe air, and they're also very lazy, and when I give them any advice I'm met with arrogance on the verge of just telling me to f-ck off ye old skunk! They "don't need any advice, especially from a boomer". I predict very hard life in front of these kids filled with depression and problems. So entitled and arrogant. When we were young, we used to love being given advice, because that meant we get knowledge for free an don't have to go through all the mistakes they've made when they were young to get where they are now. It's ridiculous how these millennials are. They don't know how stupid they are and truth will hit them really hard. After being discouraged one too many times, I don't involve in giving any advices anymore. F-ck them. Just ignore them and enjoy your life ma'am!
Good call. It's also an example of how, as a viewer, you don't have to share the same mindset as the lead character to enjoy the story. Seeing a flawed character develop and overcome, whilst also showing that we can all learn from each other, can be really satisfying. Anyway, get off my lawn.
Game of Thrones is actually the perfect example of unexpected vs just subversion. The Red Wedding was unexpected, and brilliant. No one had ever done that before: kill off half the main characters in a single scene. But it WAS justified by the story. Contrast that with season 8...also unexpected...but totally not consistent with the internal logic of the show.
Yeah, I was a huge fan of GOT and forgave them all the dumb mishaps until the end of season 7... season 8 felt like a really big middle finger. All story arcs were fucked up and the epic 3 hour long battle turned out to be watching to a black screen for 3 hours... yeah not that epic. And the end was just rushed shite.
@@hayleyb2254 4 years since that atrocity and it burns like it was yesterday. I tried to defend it for a while, but my denial was just one of the stages of grief I guess, all those hours spent building up to... nothing really. At least I enjoyed (most of) the journey.
When I was taking creative writing In highschooler way back in the 90s (class of 2000 here). I had a wonderful Teacher who was a published author. She would go on and on about the lasting nature of classic literature. Going all the way back to the Epic of Gilgamesh, The Iliad, and One Thousand and One Arabian Nights. She said, these stories last because the authors fallowed the rules to writing, or storytelling. Laid out of course in the latter, Arabian Nights. In the story Scheherazade sais, there are rules to a great story. 1: Never assume your audience is stupid, for even a moderate listener will find the holes in your story and hang onto them, like a fish in and net and the story is lost. 2: Build your Story around what you know. For when you tell the story you will have a deep passion for its telling. 3: What you don't know, research. For knowledge is the arrow of the teller's arsenal. The more you have of them the better off you will be. 4: if your audience is bored, you have failed. You must hook them, in the first few lines of the telling. Once the audience is hooked you own their attention. 5: Once you have the audience's attention, remember rule number 1. My teacher also told me to be a philosopher, not a professor. Philosophers talk about possibilities, Professors tell you how things are. Writers these days have no passion for their writing, no care for the rules. They don't want to tell good stories. They want to lecture you, like a professor. Except these are not vary learned people. There not smart, there not educated in a subject where they know just about everything. Their half-smart. They know just enough to sound credible, while too stupid to realize they don't know enough. & these people want to tell you how things really are.
Saw TFA in the theater. The whole time I was thinking "When do Han, Luke, and Leia save the day". Leia was hardly in it. Han died by letting someone just run a sword through him, and Luke shows up in the last 10 seconds with no lines. It was like a big FU from the writers. I felt cheated. Tried watching the second movie twice on Netflix. Could not get past the first 10 minutes either time. RO was not half bad IMHO. Maybe I watched RO because I am a Peter Cushing fan and I wanted to see him one last time on the big screen (even if it was CGI). After RO I completely wrote Star Wars off.
The underlying problem is not just that modern movies often contain a Mary Sue character. More often than not, every female character in modern movies are Mary Sues, and every male character is a dated cliche. Woman good; man bad. Ethnic characters good; white characters bad. Alphabet characters good; straight characters bad. No character archs. No transformations. No journeies; just political speeches disguised as entertainment.
That's been going on for decades. Go back and watch "The Mighty Ducks" (1992), or "Thelma and Louise" (1991), or "Fried Green Tomatoes" (1991) off the top of my head. The rot has gotten worse in the last few years, but it's been there for a long time. Most people didn't notice it because the writers had more skill back then.
Don't forget as soon as you noticed this pattern it pretty much gives the whole plot away. You know whos's gonna win and you know how they gonna win; with zero effort.
Easiest way to detect a _Mary-Sue_ movie: "Female empowerment" requires that women have their hair pulled back so tight it hurts - Movie posters prove it. Take a look at Ant Man posters, Rey in Star Wars, etc. Anytime you see that hairstyle on a movie poster or game cover, you know what you're getting....
I was saying that 20 years ago. TV commercials were the canary in the coalmine. White males became the only acceptable group who could get the pie in the face, so to speak. The kid, wife, black or Asian character always end up besting the dumb white dad.
What drives me nuts is how petite, slender women with tiny arms and legs can beat the hell out of bad ass burly men. This contributes to the myth that men and women are physical equals when it comes to combat. Certainly, firearms can level the playing field, but swordplay or hand to hand fighting is totally different.
@@atheinasophiajade1044 I know what you mean. My wife played competitive sports when young and still plays recreational sports today (as I did/do). There isn't a huge size difference between us. When we muck about and play fight she calls me cheap because I can grab both her wrists with one hand and tickle her with the other. As women go she is very strong but . . .
I think it's all rooted in the colleges. They treat writing like art. Someone literally poops on a canvas and you aren't allowed to say this is garbage. You just don't understand the art. This art isn't for everyone, etc. They treat writing like this. Like there is no bad writing, everyone gets an A because who am I to critique it. You end up with people who can't write, get pissed when you actually judge their writing because they aren't used to that, and just flounder around unable to string together a coherent thought.
Ive been in way too many writing groups with these kinds of ppl. Or they hide behind their forced diversity and say "you just dont like it because youre a bigot!" despite recieving valid criticism on the prose or dialogue or whatever. Ive been in writers groups where ppl just mindlessly compliment each other and if you say anything negative youre labelled a "hater" even tho the prose their writing isnt anywhere near publishable. Its wild. You need criticism in order to improve. If my critique partner doesnt critique, theyre just as bad as a critique partner who doesnt read and just spouts off grade ten essay writing rules.
Generational resentment is exactly it. The real resentment is that the boomer writers were so much better than they--creating classic beloved and moneymaking characters. Just like second-gen feminists addressed real issues like financial independence and legal inequities, while it's now all about petty microagressions and slamming men. What do you do when you're spoiled, ignorantly educated about everything in the past, and want to assert yourself without any real effort? Trash the old heroes and introduced ones who have no conflict other than getting the world to accept them as perfect the way they are. Millennials and Gen Z in a nutshell.
It can take years with an accumulation of life experience to get good at any skilled profession. I think a lot of these creativity issues is about management and investors looking for a "short cuts" to get better ROI. Yeah, the "woke agenda" as pushed by someone like Kathleen Kennedy is a big part of it also.
Those "petty microaggressions" you rightfully decry the modern 'feminists' inventing, are a TREMENDOUS LEVER OF CONTROL. Just about every part of our private intimate lives with the opposite sex is now regulated. When there isn't a law, there is, at least, a policy. Definitions of things such as abuse (very wide, often sexistly applied), consent (has to be 'perfect' consent, esp on college campuses but some of that is worming its way into the regular law and where it fails to be adopted its not from lack of the activists trying), manipulation (possible to see everywhere no good or neutral intent is ever considered) and grooming (Which should be defined as 'seductive behaviors designed to lead to sex', and not as buying a kid an ice cream cone) have been expanded ever wider, leading to not only mistrust between children and adults and men and women but also more legal and social peril for any type of intimate human relationship.
Anakin's/Luke's lightsaber. Han: Where did you get that? Maz: Good question for another time. Up till now we haven't got the answer. Which would have been pointless anyway, since the saber got destroyed.
@@patrickkelmer6290 It was JJ Abrams that set that up, the guy wrote Lost, multiple questions not getting answered in every episode, keeping people guessing and coming back for more, it's a trick the X-Files used for 11 seasons, sometimes the answers are provided along with a dopamine hit if your theory was even remotely close, sometimes JJ just forgets to follow up with teasers, but that's because he doesn't respect the audience, if he did he wouldn't have given us The Rise of Skywalker.
Honestly, I think Star Wars was doomed anyway. The content from the original trilogy isn’t so rich as to support endless spinoffs, sequels and prequels. Understandably, writers either end up adding something new (which inevitably takes it one step away from the original vision) or they explore some minutiae that doesn’t need exploring. Don’t get me wrong, the sequel trilogy is a textbook example of what not to do, but then so were the prequels. They only way Star Wars was going to remain a bulletproof cultural phenomenon was to leave it alone.
The most annoying thing for me are the relentless *SELF INSERTS* Hack writers who cant write to save their lives, so they just insert themselves - complete with their dysfunctional personalities - into the role of the protagonist. I've lost count of the number of movies, comics and other media this loathsome practice has ruined.
Yep. Also writers lack so much imagination nowadays that they just impose Los Angeles or New York City life in any period or location in human history. Like yo how many black were actually present in medieval europe?
that is like imo one of the hardest thing to do as a writer. to have enough selfawarenes not to write characters after yourself when you create a protagonist. I personally find it easier to write characters that were not made by me and i know how they act and behave. Most writers probably wont admit that but its the truth for the current generation and its why most entretaining media is in the gutter. How many times have we heard people say that they write a little of themselves into the character they write? if you are writing Batman that is an awful approach.
If you want racial diversity in a story, create a story to explain why it is that way and put it in a logical setting as well. A port city in the Mediterranean region, for example. A village in the middle of Northern Europe isn't going to work for that, and it makes the story unbelievable.
Real world politics need to stay out of movies. In-world politics are fine, working for the plot of the film, but most audiences watch movies to escape the real world, not be reminded of it. Not to say there aren't good political movies, but everything in its place, you know?
Disagree, the problem is not putting real world politics in movies, but how they're presented. For a story to put politics in it, it has to be in a way that either challenges our worldview or presents both its strenghts and flaws. Easy example is the (GOOD) Star Trek movies and episodes, in those, there's plenty of ideologies and moral compasses presented to us, but it's never shown to be the true and right way of thinking, which in turn allows the viewer to engage on them without feeling lectured or chastized for seeing things in a different way. Unfortunately, this requires skill, and as we've seen over the last decade, skilled writters aren't welcomed in Hollywood anymore XDD
what a dumb argument especially when you consider the fact some of the greatest films (and TV shows ), even in scifi genre has always been been political. For crying out the loud Fritz Lang's Metropolis is hands down one of the most political films ever made. The same can could be said about the many scifi films from the 50's, Star Trek included. Its seems to me like when those on the right/conservatives cry about Hollywood being political what they seem to crying about is the fact hollywood isn't making those things that espouse conservative virtues, yet seem to forget that hollywood is historically to the left.
@@gloriathomas3245 Hollywood is historically filled with perverts and morons (when you start looking at their personal lives), so I guess that makes perfect sense. However, the previous batch of morons wasn’t so stupid as to only make movies that were entirely left-wing and in many cases the films weren’t political at all. And they DEFINITELY didn’t make a habit of insulting their audiences. Put simply, Hollywood used to be pretty good about making things that would sell and resonate with most viewers at the time of production. Today, they cater to a loud minority that often doesn’t even consume the products they complain about.
Movies for modern audiences will die off... It's simply not sustainable for film studios to produce movies that are not even worth electricity to download them... And we already have good alternatives Asian movies lately look kinda good so they cannot afford to make many mistakes... I prefer watching movies with subtitles over anything that resembles a series like Batwoman or a movie like peter pan and Wendy... Just diligently vote with your wallet and change will come... 😊😊
The Critical Drinker's explanations (and reviews) of modern film / TV and storytelling are superb. He does film reviews like traditional reviewers but then goes onto place reviews in the context of storytelling and modern 'wokeness' etc. I learn so much from him about storytelling, modern learning and development, even ethics. All writers and movie fans should be familiar with his RUclips videos and broadcasts (and well as the rest of us).
I just watched Top Gun Maverick. Great movie. The funny thing is I KNEW Cruise was gonna be able to make it out alive but somehow that didn’t make it any less gripping. Writers seem to be so dismissive of what audiences WANT to see, as if a mark of being a good writer is to disappoint people.
Many writers over there seem to think of it as a competition: Them trying to outthink the audience. It's like having a Game Master in a TTRPG who thinks of their role as opposing the other players. It doesn't end well, not just because the writer has absolute power to do whatever they wish, but because the audience isn't (usually) here to try and outthink the writers. The audience is here for the ride, that's why we are suspending our disbelief in the first place. When you _don't_ try to 'subvert our expectations' to prove we aren't as 'smart' as you, everyone wins. The audience gets to feel like they understand the story, the work is fondly remembered, and the times you do deviate from the expected get positive treatment. If it doesn't work out, the audience isn't going to rake you over the coals, if it does, it gets praise. But when it becomes apparent the writer is approaching this from a place of hostility, then every 'subversion' even if well executed, becomes a thorn in the audience's side.
What i hate the most about woke Disney is that they blame all their mistakes on everyone but themselves. It's our fault that their movie wasn't successful, so they call us racist and make their fans insult us, because of a lie that Disney made up. I grew up with Disney movies and now they call me a racist and sexist, just because i don't like their movie? They're pathetic.
The Last Jedi was also a perfect example of misusing subversion. The first time they subverted the story I rolled my eyes. The third time, I had totally disconnected from the story. It is like a story by a 6-year old. Then the white knight came charging to save the damsel. And then the cook came in with the cake. And then the dragon became angry because he hurt his foot. And then they kissed and lived happily ever after.
I lost count of the numember of times I found myself muttering "are you fucking kidding me?" under my breath when TLJ took yet another "twist" that RJ obviously thought was clever subversion and was in actuality pushing the boarders of retardation.
the deliberate insertion of the trans gender kid and the awkward side story of that persons life that has zero relevance on the plot of the movie or tv show.
like how every horror movie has a token black kid that dies first, now every movie and show has a token trans kid that the main character has to support in a positive campy way. i dont watch star wars to hear ewoks bitching about how they would rather be wookies.
Good movie - "We need to get from point A to point B, but we have to pass through points C and D unexpectedly to get there and learn and grow as people thanks to the detour". Bad movie - "We need to get from point A to point B, but we're going to C because B doesn't matter anyway".
Subversion for subversion sake is a big one. At a basic level its actually probably the biggest. Plot after plot just devolves into nonsense with no pay off. The twist is always that something is way dumber than anyone in the audience could have guessed. So to look like they have outsmarted the audience the writers garbage their own foreshadowing and so render everything before the end, irrelevant. So yeah, Game of Thrones is still king of the trash heap on that one.
The last time this happened to me and I allowed it was Pokemon Moon. I felt that Team Skull wasn't that big of a threat, but then there was the opening cinematic and later the Aether Foundation and I wasn't surprised a single bit
Another modern writing troupe Drinker has touched on is the lack of character development that comes from the hero's journey. More protagonists are starting out as already-perfect individuals, and their quest is to break the barriers repressing their full potential. That's a terrible lesson to teach an audience because it says you don't need to study, train or practice to gain a proficiency or grow as a person. If you're not great at something on Day 1, the problem is that something or someone outside your control is holding you back, so you're not accountable for your shortcomings.
It's because men and women have different roles in storytelling. Men act, women are. Men are useless nobodies until they prove their worth to the audience, women start with a baseline of audience sympathy. You can write around it with characters like Ellen Ripley, but it's very easy to fall into the trap of writing female characters without any character flaws or adversity when your politics require that they not be written to be individuals, they are "Women characters". Modern writers aren't aware of this because they have internalised the false proposition that men and women are equal and can be interchanged with no difficulty.
One of the terms coined for what you were both talking about is a screenwriting term called "Chekhov's Gun" which is, if you have a moment in your movie where an important object is set up (like a gun) then there must be a payoff by the third act in which we see that object given a purpose (shoot the gun). So this trend of subversion for subversions sake is a really irritating gimmick which has certainly been made famous by the likes of Rian Johnson who seem to think its clever when it's actually very irritating and ultimately the audience feels like they have wasted their time because they were fed a ton of pointless information that had no pay off.
I think one reason writers have written “woke” movies and lost their audiences is because they were never amongst the public. Many of today's writers went to elite high schools and elite colleges. They never met or worked with the regular public. Only similar “woke” folks with “woke” experiences. I have been working my way through a “Twilight Zone” anthology. I read about Rod Serling’s background. He was a combat paratrooper in WWII. One thing about guys like Serling, William Wyler, or director John Ford is that they mixed with people from all walks of life. They ate, worked with, socialized with, and fought alongside people ranging from Texas cowboys to coal miners to Ivy leaguers. They met people from such broad backgrounds and learned from them. They could write to, relate to, appeal to, and reach these people with their stories, shows and movies. The could mix messages into projects in ways the audience could understand without preaching because they knew how to relate to their audience.
It's almost as if they had a DIVERSE background of experiences from which to draw from... But true diversity comes from people who look different according to modern writers.
There is definitely a disconnect between the elite writers, studio execs etc. than the mainstream audience, You are right that in WW2, the Vietnam war, the Korean War a lot of writers and actors were mingled with middle American whether it was Eddie Albert invading a Japanese Island, Michael Caine nearly getting killed in the Korean War and the Director Oliver Stone was in Vietnam. Gene Rodenberry was a progressive, but he was a fighter pilot and a cop before becoming a writer, these people understood the struggles of everyday people and could connect.
Woke doesn’t mean elite , or Black people would not have created the term as they are among the most marginalized people in the USA . Elites are the problem , yes. White , wealthy , mostly male writers and directors.
Films that make people think are a good thing; films that tell people what to think are propaganda. For example, most modern documentaries on political or social issues are actually just propaganda. They don't start with questions and seek answers, they start with the conclusion and look for things that support that conclusion.
When they said that writers should grab you attention in the first few lines I think of Star Wars IV where that big ass Star destroyer appears and fills the entire theater screen for 10 seconds before the screen changes. I was hooked on Star Wars after that until Disney.
All of this is great! I couldn't agree more. I'm particularly annoyed by the ubiquitous Mary Sue trend of today, as well as the constant spoon feeding of writer's social politics, but the one that really got me thinking was "subversion for subversion's sake". It reminded me of the show Heroes. First season everyone was wild for it, and a big part of that was the promise that Hiro would become a bad-ass. We all watched to see how that developed, but season after season went by, and it never happened, in fact the character just became some of a parody of the bumbling buffoon he was in season 1. Heroes tried to reinvent itself every season to win people back but the fans hated it. Meanwhile the answer was in front of the writers the entire time. Just give the fans what you promised them
The sad thing about Game of Thrones is that we will never see that level of hype and excitement for a series ever again. That is the one show I can think of that could have gone 10 (maybe even 12) seasons without overstaying its welcome. Even if they were to do a restart on the books and do them properly, it would never again reach that level of anticipation.
@@blackswan4486 I doubt they're smart enough. The most likely explanation is a lack of talent and effort on the part of the showrunners and GRRM having long ago run out of ideas and forgetting what made his books so good in the first place.
I don’t know that the problem with Rey, at least in _The Force Awakens,_ was proactive wokeness… I saw it more as just lazy writing. JJ thought that since she was a woman, and that was a first for a _Star Wars_ 1A lead character, that people would like the character no matter what, and they didn’t have to bother giving her any depth or compelling motives.
If you were to tell me….. that all my favorite stories or movies, in any format and all the major ones like Hollywood, we’re going to be not only destroyed but with prejudice! Yeah I would of not believed it! Stories and their heroes and characters are what I enjoy the most in my life. 😢
Loved every word of this, from both of you! Really loved in particular that you mentioned that a good storyteller early on in the story gives the audience promises of how the story will or might end. And when that never happens, especially if the story even does a total 180 away from said promise, then the story is an absolute shit disaster of a let-down! The promise becomes a lie. And who in their right mind wants to PAY to be lied to!? No matter if we are talking about cinema or streaming or whatever, the audience is meant to pay for the story. Who wants to pay to be lied to? Or pass on the word that you should go & see this thing if it all ends with a lying disappointment? If you care for someone you don't want to pass a lie on to them! And all this leads down to that today's entertainment, with very few exceptions, are no longer what I call re-watchable. Why did our massive franchises once become the massive hits they became? Not only because the story teller KEPT their promises in the story itself, the promise was in fact so satisfying that so many of us wanted to experience it again! Willing to PAY for it again! Hence why often SW audiences back in the day, or even during the Prequels, saw these films several times & then buying the films several times in different formats as they came along. ROTJ just recently managed to pull a small world audience to it's 40th anniversary on the big screen, despite the fact that there was no marketing for it's re-release & far more importantly that all who care for the film already owns it & can see it at home whenever they want, but some decided to go & PAY to see it again anyway! because ROTJ is a movie that keeps its story promises! Because the film has a red thread to all the previous films, included the Prequels. Because the film has re-watchability. And it was made by people that wanted to keep their promise, not lie to us just because they feel like it & thinks that makes them cool.
Test audiences hated the original ending to National Lampoons Vacation. It had Wally World closed and the Griswold's went to the owner's house and wrecking his backyard party. The test audience said the whole movie they talked about Wally World, we want to see them in Wally World.
The best possible way is to stop paying any attention. Vote with your wallet and embrace the Iron Age. There are a lot of indie creators with amazing comics, games, movies, and books.
I actually really like subversion of expectations as a plot device WHEN it's used intelligently. I absolutely love Attack on Titan's subversion of they typical anime trope of "work together as a team, trust your friends, work hard, and you can succeed!" (spoilers for Season 1 below) When the Female Titan is chasing the Levi squad in the forest, we get this entire flashback scene which is supposed to make us feel all warm and fuzzy about the members of the team trusting each other. The squad first didn't trust Eren, but then they came to trust him and even put their lives in his hands. Likewise, Eren comes to realize that if they can do that for him, he can do the same for them. He decides to trust them after the flashback, and it's set up to be this total anime moment of "trust your teammates and you can do amazing things!". However, with a few swift moves, the female titan goes on to ENDS all our heroes without any struggle. The squad does not die heroically. They are all quickly swatted like flies. BUT this trope/expectation subversion isn't just there to "hahaha we subverted the audience's expectations!". It's there to make us think- to ask ourselves if we are living with rose colored glasses on, and it's telling us that even though it's nice, warm, and fuzzy to live with those glasses on, in the end our unrealistically optimistic views of the world CANT save us from the cruel realities of life. It's setting up a major theme for the anime - sometimes traditional heroes don't win. Sometimes the monsters win.
And that's why I have no interest in AoT. I watch stuff for escapism. I want heroics and fuzzy feels. That's why I have zero interest in 95% of modern Hollyweird and Disney and just watch Hololive VTubers and play games.
@Zephyre Razortail That's fine, you do you, but I wouldn't equate AoT to modern Hollywood stuff. Stories can be dark without being shit. Today Hollywood may be dark shit, but that doesn't mean all dark stories are shit.
That's fucking AWESOME, you guys were talking about old guys passing on their knowledge, and how it isn't done anymore, and the first thought in my head was Maverick!
I just watched Transformers: Bumblebee for the first time and didn't like it for most of the exact reasons mentioned here. Angsty Boss Chick lead. Dopey out of touch Stepdad. Jokes ruining the levity of every emotional moment. Black and Brown Kids Good vs White and Asian Kids Bad. Social Messaging smacking you in the face every five seconds. Impossible Situations. I really don't understand it's popularity.
I think there is something to be said about the generational change. When Star Wars came out in 1977, there were a lot of old people around who had fought in World War I and there were working-aged people who had been adults during the Great Depression and World War II. The old people back then really had earned their respect and definitely had wisdom to offer. The old people of today have lived through, what, the British Invasion and the largest economic growth in world history? I can see how kids these days don't respect their elders the way my generation did.
It certainly is. Though nothing new under the sun. It's just the same old, the difference is that the western morals have gone mentally ill. I can still remember the news in the 90's, how the west is better then the rest and we have to spread our liberal thoughts about the liberation of women etc. over to this backwater place with cavemen called the Middle East. Backwards thinking I think the muslims got the right idea. Coz where did it take us? Well you only have to look at the destruction of the family unit and the amount of divorces of the boomers and how utterly miserable western women in general feel after their so called 'liberation'. Currently it's more of the same, we've gone back to the Middle East with our 'liberal' ideas except now we have mentally ill woke diversity/equity/gender is a social construct material littering the garbage dumbs outside Bagdad, decaying under the desert sun, a memorial to how fucked up the west has become since.
tell me you're a moron without telling me you're a moron.. let me remind you that all your freedom of speech and civil rights you owe it to your boomer grandpa..
"Conspicuous Diversity" . Genius, I love it. I also love the movies in historical contexts where the woman is "conspicuously diverse" when people of the time would have nailed her to a cross for her brash bullying in the name of female equality. Leads me to the young kids these days who cancel great heroes because they did something that we consider not woke now. These fools, in their childish hubris think they would have been brave enough not to follow the crowd of the time when they are only following the crowd blindly today.
Once upon a time, writers told their stories. On occasion, those stories would also convey a message, but the message was usually incidental, and not the focus of the story. Today, writers begin with a message, and try to craft a story around it. Big difference; and it doesn't work.
Yep, the message wasn't spelled out in big bold characters and yelled at the audience, but people actually had to do some thinking for themselves and not everyone really even got the message. Now it's all about the message and it's so clear what the message is. I mean if the first 5 minutes of a show or movie is just screaming a message as loud as possible in my ear, then I'll just shut it off and never return to it again.
I mean, overall, I agree. Especially when it comes to movies. But historically, both ways have been done. For that matter, most literature and story-writing throughout history has had some purpose of conveying a message, since books, plays, etc. were expensive to make and distribute, and someone powerful with money (and a political interest) had to pay for it. If you want an example, take Plato's works about Atlantis in the books Timaeus and Critias, written 2300 years ago. Historians agree that Plato most likely made the entire story up to convey a very political message about the ideal state and that Athens should be more like it was in the "good old days", when it allegedly was more like Sparta and defeated the Atlanteans through its martial spirit, rather than its contemporary "decadent" state Plato thought it had ended up in. Or for that matter, most religious texts and stories, have been written by men as a way to justify their political power. I'd wager that even during the 20th century, we can find very many books and movies written with an ideological intent, be they communistic ones in the Eastern Block and China, or Freedom-ones in the West. Pretty sure for example that 1984, which I consider to be one of the best books out there, was very much intentionally written to convey a message about anti-totalitarianism. That goes for animal-farm as well. Point is, I agree to hell and back with the assessment that too many movies today are overtly and impolitly politicised, and in a way which comes at the expense of the quality of the story, but as a historian, I'd just want to point out that it is far from a new occurrence, and that there also are many good stories out there where the writer has begun with a message, and then have successfully tried to craft a story around it afterwards. :)
I've made this same point myself, and compare it to Christian fiction back in the 70s and 80s. The story always took a back seat to the message, and so was always a crappy story. Modern writers are doing the same thing, only woke-ism is the religion.
@@jeezus666 _Yep, the message wasn't spelled out in big bold characters and yelled at the audience_ Or if it was, it was done artfully and entertainingly. See some of the speeches from the movie _Network_ for example. There's a definite point of view being clearly expressed, but it's done so damn well, with the writing and acting top-notch.
Honestly, I read DC more than Marvel as a kid, but I still had some and read enough of them to remember being annoyed, even as a kid, by the pervasive quips and banter, in combat, no less. Seemed to be a trait of the comics, so it never surprised me it was in the movies
There likely is a small market for woke girl-boss action movies. Hollywood should make as many of these sort of films as the market will bear. The market for male fantasy action films is undoubtably MUCH larger. If Hollywood is too stupid or stubborn to service this market someone else will. Within a few years AI will have dramatically increased the number of people who can make films with good production values. If Hollywood ever had a monopoly on shaping people's thoughts... it certainly won't for much longer.
@@primmakinsofis614 Dude, I grew up in the 80s and 90s and guess what? I see no absolutely no difference in what today compared to back then. For crying out loud tons of TV shows and movies made back would be considered "woke" going by the definition being thrown around.
Girl-boss action movie with good writing = good Girl-boss action movie with bad writing = bad This isn't tricky. If you want movies featuring strong male leads, may i suggest the majority of movies from any year ever?
Artistic / Theatrical License is something everyone understands. It allows storytellers and movie makers to be creative in writing and making casting decisions for a movie. People also understand that forced diversity has nothing to do with the creative process. Once you make something a requirement, and stipulate its various components, it's no longer a work of art; it's a product.
As a young filmmaker who has been to a festival it just seems like EVERY movie being made is about someone’s identity or a MESSAGE. Not all ofcourse but unfortunately way too many.
Can you imagine how the movie Top Gun: Maverick would have turned out if modern woke writers had anything to do with it? Maverick would have been a washed-up old man sent to train new pilots for their mission. They wouldn't have listened to him, because he has nothing to teach them as they're all brilliant pilots already, especially the female pilots. Then a badass boss babe, probably a black lesbian, would have been the one to successfully complete the mission after saving Maverick from certain death (because he's now useless) and she saves the day and is the real hero of the movie. Yawn!
Man, I'm glad brainless people didn't touch it. Saw it recently and it's been YEARS since I loudly cheered. Even tho I know he'll be fine, there was tension. Also love that Maverick is the best of the best of the best. After years of deconstructed and ruined heroes, I needed that.
So you just want your man characters to not change or develop at all and have no flaws whatsoever? This is childish, you just want your characters to stay the same and not be challenged at all.
@@SoyboyPeter Totally the opposite! Most male characters in movies have flaws, need training, and need to improve. Whereas most female characters in today's movies are perfect from the get-go, basically Mary Sues. An example would be Rey in Star Wars, or Mulan in the live-action movie.
I was a big fan of Magnum p.i.. When they did the re-boot, they dropped off the old British Sergeant Major who had been a tough old bloke in his day and who'd learned a lot of wisdom. Instead, they brought in a woman to be equal to Magnum. Then, they had episodes where she was involved in gun fights and fist fights and car chases - equal to that of Magnum. Except it was obvious to everyone watching that she was a good-looking girl cast for her eyes and her body, and the idea that she could punch a 6'2" 250 lbs man and knock him out on one punch was just rediculous.
The sad thing about Marvel Humor (TM) is it used to actually be extremely quick witted and really fun. It was even funny. I thought maybe people just got burnt out on it / fatigue, but went and watched some Avengers era movies - they hold up. Sharp banter being bounced off each other so fast and it might even qualify as clever quite often. The quality has degraded, horribly, over time.
Subversive Diversity, I love that term. I noticed it in Sandman when the entire cast was apparently queer or gay, I couldn't help but wonder how the world was populated.
I want you all to take a moment and imagine something. The Critical Drinker hosting the Oscars, roasting everybody, and at the end he says, "anyway, that's all I've got for today; Go away now!". A sweet fantasy.
Brandon Sanderson is an amazing author. I read his books for decades. More of his works should have movies or cartoons. And he should at least be consulted during the writing process.
I think the excessive use of subversion started with Lost, the TV series. The thing about modern viewers is that we have social media. The audience is smarter in the sense that we see a lot of movies and shows, and we can discuss all of it online. And sometimes, the audience will foresee the ending. Then the writers try to make a new one that the audience cant foresee. But you cant be smarter than everyone all the time. So, "subversion" is an easy way out.
That is definitly a major factor in bad writing decisions in media. TV, Films, Games, I'm sure it's in books too. The writers convey things well, the audience collectively figures out where it is going, and then instead of saying "Yes! We did it!" the writers/management panics that "No! They can't know ahead of time! Change it!" The results never standing up to the original idea, because it can't have the same time, creative drive or proper build up. The go to example for me would be Mass Effect, where some folks took the clues from the first two games and figured out the rough outline of the twist. They could do that because both collectively they can throw more work hours at it, and because people proposed everything under the sun. The things that fit with the info the audience have tend to stand out and get support because of it. Instead of going through with the original plan and maybe after the fact saying "Congratulations on figuring it out ahead of time!" they derailed everything just to avoid that guess being correct.
Lost was an absolute disaster. I have so little trust into television series I don't even bother with them. The gall of studios wanting to have their cake and eat it too by leaving a story unfinished so they have the option for a second season then deciding to not do another one is insulting. There are thousands of books that exist that have actual endings. If I'm going to invest 10 hours of my time into something that doesn't wrap anything up and then is never finished so they can have 'options', nope. Get lost I say! I'll spend 10 hours reading a book.
@@SuperMegaWoofer3000 Lost is when you try to build on show on the surprise factor only, then you find out that you cant outwit your audience forever but you keep going bc the money is so good.
I agree with what they were saying about the older characters. It reminds me of Eric Ericson’s final stage: Generationalism vs. Stagnation. It seems like the majority of Hollywood writers focus on the latter.
"Supplanted by a new generation which is far better" aptly describes what's happening today. If you are over 45 years old, you know s&%t but that 20-something is vastly superior in "correct" knowledge and experience (after all, the old experience is the wrong experience). Wisdom is not valid anymore nor is exceptional life experience. Unless, of course, you are an elder from some lost tribe or indigenous group that has little experience in the modern world.
There is another one. The Fast and The Furious: Tokyo Drift. Han of the Franchise teaches a teenager, (The usual Thirty something playing a Teenager.) how to drift. There is a hero's journey and all of the other good stuff that is in a movie where the main hero is put into a situation where he fails, has his butt handed to him and then has to have a Master teach him so yes, he can save the day and win the girl over and a happily ever after, (In a way.)
I absolutely hated Star Wars for making Luke Skywalker a potential killer and the reason Kylo Ren turned bad. I’m all for flawed heroes but this wasn’t a flaw, it was lazy writing and totally out of character after everything Luke had seen and done in Eps IV-VI.
That's why how i met your mother ending sucked. The whole show was building an expectation of us to meeting the mother at the end, only for it to be robin all along
Who knew that the 80s would end up being the golden age of modern movie making. Where folks enjoyed just watching a movie not a lecture from the most pampered elites on the planet.
You missed how Glass Onion: - made the white guy the villain (of course); and then made them stupid - made all minority characters virtuous Then there’s Enola Holmes - so Sherlock is now inferior to Enola, and criminal genius Moriarty is recast as a black woman
At the start of Game of Thrones, I decided to try the books. I went to my local book store and opened one of the books in a random place and read. It went on for two pages talking about a random minor person and then killed them. I put it down and left someone who wastes that much paper and my time for nothing wasn't worth it.
The later books used random throwaway characters as a POV character to show off what the important side characters were doing. That was kind of weird... But the books were actually good, even when nothing significant happened.
8:40 Wow, I have never thought of this. It is so accurate, they way society looks at boomers with disgust MUST have some weight in why we cant get the import old mentor characters anymore!
Skyfall was the most egrecious example of "deconstructed hero" for me. I stopped watching Bond movies after that. I liked Daniel Craig as Bond, but I didn't need to see a broken loser with mommy issues.
The promises can be subverted but fullfilled at the same time. Tidus, in final fantasy x, wanted to ho back to his home in zanarkand. And man, he did, but in a subverted way...
I felt a bit like a cheap whore for liking Top Gun 2 as much as I did. I laughed at the spots where I was supposed to laugh, I was on the edge of my seat when I was supposed to be, etc. It was an extremely predictable, derivative script, but it was executed with so much passion and directorial skill that I bought it hook, line and sinker. It's not great art and it wasn't delusional about its purpose - it's just a VERY fun two hour diversion with no alterier motives for existing.
That's not necessarily a bad thing. Yeah, it might be simple and predictable, but I think people miss that. It's the same, I feel, with villains who are just evil because they are. People wanted every villain to have this tragic backstory and some are just craving for just an evil person
It is pretty easy to get caught up in thinking you’re an expensive whore. At the end of the day, if the price is right everyone is cheap, just have to give us what we really want. We don’t always know what that is but we know it when we see it.
All that needs to happen is that people stop watching it, if they don't like it. These shows and films will have to call it quits, if they're not making enough money.
The lack of the old wise mentor is intentional. The writers today think that the older generation are "boomers" and should be discarded and ignored and that the current generation is better and just knows better and more.
Lol "other factors". Way to sugar coat it. The "other factors" that negate the pay gap include trivial matters like: Hours worked Job roles Experience Qualifications Little things like that 😂 Also re industries that pay a certain gender more: Men get paid more in sport for two main reasons A) males sports attract more interest and revenue B) women on average do not financially support the sports that they advocate equal pay for. If women watched female sports they would attract more viewers than male sports and therefore more money. Incidently there are also more female voters than male voters so if women supported a female candidate they would have a massive advantage over any male opponents.... but they don't
We need more Mr. Miyagi. and less Rey.
The irony of how Ms. Rey almost phonetically sounds like misery.
Agreed. Unfortunately, LA and “woke Hollywood” has been an ageist culture for decades, and they’ve codified their own prejudice against older people/generations while maintaining this false righteousness of “wokeness”.
But only a black gay woman Mr Miyagi.
@@colincopland3665 The great irony is how often I hear the honorific "Ms." being pronounced 'miss' instead of 'miz'. The entire reason "Ms." was created back in the 1960s was because some feminists felt that "Miss" was parochial. They wanted something else, so "Ms." was created, Through continued usage over the decades, it became an accepted honorific.
Seeing its pronunciation slip from 'miz' to 'miss', thereby returning it to sound like the honorific feminists were rejecting, is something I find amusing.
More Mr. Miyagi, *no* Rey.
Imagine being Rian Johnson and thinking "what Star Wars needs is passive aggression and office politics."
Admiral gender studies was totally a great leader and not a massive traitor who got most of the Resistance destroyed by sheer incompetence.
At least Rian Johnson has found his place making pretentious mistery movies that are in fact absolute nonsense
He's even on the record saying how he doesn't like world-building and all that, he only cares about the 2 hours the movie is playing (or whatever). And they put him in charge of the middle movie of a third trilogy.
@@mrbigglezworth42 Rui😢😢😢x😢👌
And an injection of 3rd wave feminism
My experience as a 62 year old woman still working at an office, is that the young people I work with think I’m an old lady who can’t teach them anything. After a while you give up trying to help and it’s frustrating. When I was younger I sought advice from older people and it helped me. Just because you can run circles around me when it comes to tech doesn’t mean you are smarter than me about everything else.
They’re entitled now.
I’m 40 and I’m surrounded by a bunch of them and I laugh at their pronouns. Well your name is Rob no Sh*t your a he/him. Morons. Im glad I got to live a 1/4 of my life before social media.
Agree. I think some young people are just so full of ambitions that they are desperate to prove their values. The smart ones will quiet down a bit and be humble after they sense what working relationship or office politics like in the society. The arrogant ones will eventually learn the hard way, I have seen a few hitting the wall. One thing I cannot agree more, you character play a huge role in your entire career life. There is a saying: "If you possess great skills and didn't make it, it is your personalities".
I'm a 53 yo music producer. Music/Audio production is an incredibly complex thing, unlike so many people think, and it takes years/decades to become good at it. I'm telling you this because I encounter young people almost daily who just think they could make something incredible just because they breathe air, and they're also very lazy, and when I give them any advice I'm met with arrogance on the verge of just telling me to f-ck off ye old skunk! They "don't need any advice, especially from a boomer". I predict very hard life in front of these kids filled with depression and problems. So entitled and arrogant. When we were young, we used to love being given advice, because that meant we get knowledge for free an don't have to go through all the mistakes they've made when they were young to get where they are now. It's ridiculous how these millennials are. They don't know how stupid they are and truth will hit them really hard. After being discouraged one too many times, I don't involve in giving any advices anymore. F-ck them. Just ignore them and enjoy your life ma'am!
They are all going to Hell MAm
Because Clint was in control, Gran Torino is a good example of the old man setting a guide for the lost young man.
Great film IMO
Good call. It's also an example of how, as a viewer, you don't have to share the same mindset as the lead character to enjoy the story. Seeing a flawed character develop and overcome, whilst also showing that we can all learn from each other, can be really satisfying.
Anyway, get off my lawn.
Good call but not really a recent example though.
I was thinking of Clint also.
A masterpiece. Clint may be the last example of the Awesome Old Man.
Game of Thrones is actually the perfect example of unexpected vs just subversion. The Red Wedding was unexpected, and brilliant. No one had ever done that before: kill off half the main characters in a single scene. But it WAS justified by the story. Contrast that with season 8...also unexpected...but totally not consistent with the internal logic of the show.
Yeah, I was a huge fan of GOT and forgave them all the dumb mishaps until the end of season 7... season 8 felt like a really big middle finger. All story arcs were fucked up and the epic 3 hour long battle turned out to be watching to a black screen for 3 hours... yeah not that epic. And the end was just rushed shite.
4 years on. I'm still bitter!
The red wedding was from the original author. Season 8 was not. Writers matter.
@@hayleyb2254 4 years since that atrocity and it burns like it was yesterday. I tried to defend it for a while, but my denial was just one of the stages of grief I guess, all those hours spent building up to... nothing really. At least I enjoyed (most of) the journey.
"Unexpected" if you hadn't read the books, at least.
Although they didn't do Lady Stoneheart.
When I was taking creative writing In highschooler way back in the 90s (class of 2000 here). I had a wonderful Teacher who was a published author. She would go on and on about the lasting nature of classic literature. Going all the way back to the Epic of Gilgamesh, The Iliad, and One Thousand and One Arabian Nights. She said, these stories last because the authors fallowed the rules to writing, or storytelling. Laid out of course in the latter, Arabian Nights. In the story Scheherazade sais, there are rules to a great story.
1: Never assume your audience is stupid, for even a moderate listener will find the holes in your story and hang onto them, like a fish in and net and the story is lost.
2: Build your Story around what you know. For when you tell the story you will have a deep passion for its telling.
3: What you don't know, research. For knowledge is the arrow of the teller's arsenal. The more you have of them the better off you will be.
4: if your audience is bored, you have failed. You must hook them, in the first few lines of the telling. Once the audience is hooked you own their attention.
5: Once you have the audience's attention, remember rule number 1.
My teacher also told me to be a philosopher, not a professor.
Philosophers talk about possibilities, Professors tell you how things are.
Writers these days have no passion for their writing, no care for the rules. They don't want to tell good stories. They want to lecture you, like a professor.
Except these are not vary learned people. There not smart, there not educated in a subject where they know just about everything. Their half-smart.
They know just enough to sound credible, while too stupid to realize they don't know enough.
& these people want to tell you how things really are.
Great explanation
Like the explanation. We live during an epidemic of midwits.
Great comment... needs far far more likes.
Well said!
Made it to rule 4 and got bored. Nice example.
Chewbacca dying on that ship was very emotional, finding out he was on another ship altogether 30 seconds later, not so much.
Saw TFA in the theater. The whole time I was thinking "When do Han, Luke, and Leia save the day". Leia was hardly in it. Han died by letting someone just run a sword through him, and Luke shows up in the last 10 seconds with no lines. It was like a big FU from the writers. I felt cheated. Tried watching the second movie twice on Netflix. Could not get past the first 10 minutes either time. RO was not half bad IMHO. Maybe I watched RO because I am a Peter Cushing fan and I wanted to see him one last time on the big screen (even if it was CGI). After RO I completely wrote Star Wars off.
The underlying problem is not just that modern movies often contain a Mary Sue character. More often than not, every female character in modern movies are Mary Sues, and every male character is a dated cliche.
Woman good; man bad. Ethnic characters good; white characters bad. Alphabet characters good; straight characters bad. No character archs. No transformations. No journeies; just political speeches disguised as entertainment.
That's been going on for decades. Go back and watch "The Mighty Ducks" (1992), or "Thelma and Louise" (1991), or "Fried Green Tomatoes" (1991) off the top of my head. The rot has gotten worse in the last few years, but it's been there for a long time. Most people didn't notice it because the writers had more skill back then.
Don't forget as soon as you noticed this pattern it pretty much gives the whole plot away. You know whos's gonna win and you know how they gonna win; with zero effort.
Easiest way to detect a _Mary-Sue_ movie: "Female empowerment" requires that women have their hair pulled back so tight it hurts - Movie posters prove it. Take a look at Ant Man posters, Rey in Star Wars, etc. Anytime you see that hairstyle on a movie poster or game cover, you know what you're getting....
I was saying that 20 years ago. TV commercials were the canary in the coalmine. White males became the only acceptable group who could get the pie in the face, so to speak. The kid, wife, black or Asian character always end up besting the dumb white dad.
Lol no that’s not what’s happening lol conservatives are dumb grublins. Lol also rey was explained why she’s powerful
What drives me nuts is how petite, slender women with tiny arms and legs can beat the hell out of bad ass burly men. This contributes to the myth that men and women are physical equals when it comes to combat. Certainly, firearms can level the playing field, but swordplay or hand to hand fighting is totally different.
Too many of the writers admired Buffy and missed the supernatural source of her powers. They just saw "average girl kicks ass - yay me!"
I'm pretty sure that's a fetish thing.
As a very capable female electrician these girls my size with less muscle pulling off stuff that would get me killed
😅 so sick of it.
@@atheinasophiajade1044 I know what you mean. My wife played competitive sports when young and still plays recreational sports today (as I did/do). There isn't a huge size difference between us. When we muck about and play fight she calls me cheap because I can grab both her wrists with one hand and tickle her with the other. As women go she is very strong but . . .
Hard Candy. E. Page has 4 face-off fights with the man she's attacking and wins all 4.
I think it's all rooted in the colleges. They treat writing like art. Someone literally poops on a canvas and you aren't allowed to say this is garbage. You just don't understand the art. This art isn't for everyone, etc. They treat writing like this. Like there is no bad writing, everyone gets an A because who am I to critique it.
You end up with people who can't write, get pissed when you actually judge their writing because they aren't used to that, and just flounder around unable to string together a coherent thought.
aka Rian Johnson syndrome
Try writing something that portrays traditional values and white men in a good light and good luck getting an A...
I have attended a few fiction writing workshops in my time. They are packed full of lefty, precocious, ego-centric, talentless wannabes.
Ive been in way too many writing groups with these kinds of ppl. Or they hide behind their forced diversity and say "you just dont like it because youre a bigot!" despite recieving valid criticism on the prose or dialogue or whatever. Ive been in writers groups where ppl just mindlessly compliment each other and if you say anything negative youre labelled a "hater" even tho the prose their writing isnt anywhere near publishable. Its wild. You need criticism in order to improve. If my critique partner doesnt critique, theyre just as bad as a critique partner who doesnt read and just spouts off grade ten essay writing rules.
Generational resentment is exactly it. The real resentment is that the boomer writers were so much better than they--creating classic beloved and moneymaking characters. Just like second-gen feminists addressed real issues like financial independence and legal inequities, while it's now all about petty microagressions and slamming men. What do you do when you're spoiled, ignorantly educated about everything in the past, and want to assert yourself without any real effort? Trash the old heroes and introduced ones who have no conflict other than getting the world to accept them as perfect the way they are. Millennials and Gen Z in a nutshell.
It can take years with an accumulation of life experience to get good at any skilled profession. I think a lot of these creativity issues is about management and investors looking for a "short cuts" to get better ROI. Yeah, the "woke agenda" as pushed by someone like Kathleen Kennedy is a big part of it also.
Kathleen Kennedy is a Baby Boomer too.
Yess, thats a good comment
Those "petty microaggressions" you rightfully decry the modern 'feminists' inventing, are a TREMENDOUS LEVER OF CONTROL. Just about every part of our private intimate lives with the opposite sex is now regulated. When there isn't a law, there is, at least, a policy. Definitions of things such as abuse (very wide, often sexistly applied), consent (has to be 'perfect' consent, esp on college campuses but some of that is worming its way into the regular law and where it fails to be adopted its not from lack of the activists trying), manipulation (possible to see everywhere no good or neutral intent is ever considered) and grooming (Which should be defined as 'seductive behaviors designed to lead to sex', and not as buying a kid an ice cream cone) have been expanded ever wider, leading to not only mistrust between children and adults and men and women but also more legal and social peril for any type of intimate human relationship.
Perfect comment 👏
Anakin's/Luke's lightsaber.
Han: Where did you get that?
Maz: Good question for another time.
Up till now we haven't got the answer. Which would have been pointless anyway, since the saber got destroyed.
I really love how Rian Johnson just destroyed everything.
@@patrickkelmer6290 The trilogy would have been complete and utter trash with or without Rian Johnson's involvement.
@@patrickkelmer6290
Kathleen "Oath-Breaker Self-Insert" Kennedy and her acolytes destroyed Disney Wars.
@@patrickkelmer6290 It was JJ Abrams that set that up, the guy wrote Lost, multiple questions not getting answered in every episode, keeping people guessing and coming back for more, it's a trick the X-Files used for 11 seasons, sometimes the answers are provided along with a dopamine hit if your theory was even remotely close, sometimes JJ just forgets to follow up with teasers, but that's because he doesn't respect the audience, if he did he wouldn't have given us The Rise of Skywalker.
Honestly, I think Star Wars was doomed anyway. The content from the original trilogy isn’t so rich as to support endless spinoffs, sequels and prequels. Understandably, writers either end up adding something new (which inevitably takes it one step away from the original vision) or they explore some minutiae that doesn’t need exploring. Don’t get me wrong, the sequel trilogy is a textbook example of what not to do, but then so were the prequels. They only way Star Wars was going to remain a bulletproof cultural phenomenon was to leave it alone.
Rather than comedic relief, now we have dramatic relief
There's no relief . . .
I was reading some trashy Korean romcom comic, and I liked how suddenly murder happened.
It's amazing how much the Drinker blew up overnight. I didn't think he'd be a guest on a bunch of podcasts. I'm glad I found his videos.
The most annoying thing for me are the relentless *SELF INSERTS* Hack writers who cant write to save their lives, so they just insert themselves - complete with their dysfunctional personalities - into the role of the protagonist. I've lost count of the number of movies, comics and other media this loathsome practice has ruined.
Yep. Also writers lack so much imagination nowadays that they just impose Los Angeles or New York City life in any period or location in human history.
Like yo how many black were actually present in medieval europe?
She-Hulk is an excellent example of this loathsome practice.
that is like imo one of the hardest thing to do as a writer. to have enough selfawarenes not to write characters after yourself when you create a protagonist. I personally find it easier to write characters that were not made by me and i know how they act and behave. Most writers probably wont admit that but its the truth for the current generation and its why most entretaining media is in the gutter. How many times have we heard people say that they write a little of themselves into the character they write? if you are writing Batman that is an awful approach.
Kathleen Kennedy literally sees rey as herself. Or how she wishes she was 😂
I would say not so much hacks as raging narcissists.
If you want racial diversity in a story, create a story to explain why it is that way and put it in a logical setting as well. A port city in the Mediterranean region, for example. A village in the middle of Northern Europe isn't going to work for that, and it makes the story unbelievable.
Or the capital of an empire, like Rome, or Babylon. It's not difficult, they're just lazy SJWs (redundant, I know).
"What do you mean there were no black viking kings?"-some wanna be writer.
@@Scarlet_moon. "What do you mean there were no black female Viking kings?!"
@@OscarSchneegans Look up Jarl in "Vikings valhalla".
@@Scarlet_moon. "What do you mean there weren't any black female trans disabled vegan Viking kings?!"
Real world politics need to stay out of movies. In-world politics are fine, working for the plot of the film, but most audiences watch movies to escape the real world, not be reminded of it. Not to say there aren't good political movies, but everything in its place, you know?
Disagree, the problem is not putting real world politics in movies, but how they're presented. For a story to put politics in it, it has to be in a way that either challenges our worldview or presents both its strenghts and flaws. Easy example is the (GOOD) Star Trek movies and episodes, in those, there's plenty of ideologies and moral compasses presented to us, but it's never shown to be the true and right way of thinking, which in turn allows the viewer to engage on them without feeling lectured or chastized for seeing things in a different way. Unfortunately, this requires skill, and as we've seen over the last decade, skilled writters aren't welcomed in Hollywood anymore XDD
@@jackmesrel4933 the way new trek vs star trek handled the issue of illegal immigration is a great example for your comp
what a dumb argument especially when you consider the fact some of the greatest films (and TV shows ), even in scifi genre has always been been political. For crying out the loud Fritz Lang's Metropolis is hands down one of the most political films ever made. The same can could be said about the many scifi films from the 50's, Star Trek included. Its seems to me like when those on the right/conservatives cry about Hollywood being political what they seem to crying about is the fact hollywood isn't making those things that espouse conservative virtues, yet seem to forget that hollywood is historically to the left.
@@gloriathomas3245 Hollywood is historically filled with perverts and morons (when you start looking at their personal lives), so I guess that makes perfect sense. However, the previous batch of morons wasn’t so stupid as to only make movies that were entirely left-wing and in many cases the films weren’t political at all. And they DEFINITELY didn’t make a habit of insulting their audiences. Put simply, Hollywood used to be pretty good about making things that would sell and resonate with most viewers at the time of production. Today, they cater to a loud minority that often doesn’t even consume the products they complain about.
@@gloriathomas3245you typed so many words and said so little.
Movies for modern audiences will die off... It's simply not sustainable for film studios to produce movies that are not even worth electricity to download them...
And we already have good alternatives Asian movies lately look kinda good so they cannot afford to make many mistakes... I prefer watching movies with subtitles over anything that resembles a series like Batwoman or a movie like peter pan and Wendy...
Just diligently vote with your wallet and change will come... 😊😊
And the writer and actor walkouts will hopefully quicken that process.
Haven't been to the movies since convid and in not going back
The Critical Drinker's explanations (and reviews) of modern film / TV and storytelling are superb. He does film reviews like traditional reviewers but then goes onto place reviews in the context of storytelling and modern 'wokeness' etc. I learn so much from him about storytelling, modern learning and development, even ethics. All writers and movie fans should be familiar with his RUclips videos and broadcasts (and well as the rest of us).
I just watched Top Gun Maverick. Great movie. The funny thing is I KNEW Cruise was gonna be able to make it out alive but somehow that didn’t make it any less gripping. Writers seem to be so dismissive of what audiences WANT to see, as if a mark of being a good writer is to disappoint people.
Many writers over there seem to think of it as a competition: Them trying to outthink the audience. It's like having a Game Master in a TTRPG who thinks of their role as opposing the other players. It doesn't end well, not just because the writer has absolute power to do whatever they wish, but because the audience isn't (usually) here to try and outthink the writers. The audience is here for the ride, that's why we are suspending our disbelief in the first place. When you _don't_ try to 'subvert our expectations' to prove we aren't as 'smart' as you, everyone wins. The audience gets to feel like they understand the story, the work is fondly remembered, and the times you do deviate from the expected get positive treatment. If it doesn't work out, the audience isn't going to rake you over the coals, if it does, it gets praise. But when it becomes apparent the writer is approaching this from a place of hostility, then every 'subversion' even if well executed, becomes a thorn in the audience's side.
What i hate the most about woke Disney is that they blame all their mistakes on everyone but themselves. It's our fault that their movie wasn't successful, so they call us racist and make their fans insult us, because of a lie that Disney made up. I grew up with Disney movies and now they call me a racist and sexist, just because i don't like their movie? They're pathetic.
Wowza, you do hate anyone that isn’t white don’t ya 🤨
Because we filthy plebs should all bow before them just because they breathe air.
That is not just with Disney that is with everything. You can't criticize the terrible writing without being called racist or sexist.
The Last Jedi was also a perfect example of misusing subversion. The first time they subverted the story I rolled my eyes. The third time, I had totally disconnected from the story.
It is like a story by a 6-year old. Then the white knight came charging to save the damsel. And then the cook came in with the cake. And then the dragon became angry because he hurt his foot. And then they kissed and lived happily ever after.
I lost count of the numember of times I found myself muttering "are you fucking kidding me?" under my breath when TLJ took yet another "twist" that RJ obviously thought was clever subversion and was in actuality pushing the boarders of retardation.
"I'm going to intentionally disappoint the fans/audience" should have got him the boot but kathleen bought it.
the deliberate insertion of the trans gender kid and the awkward side story of that persons life that has zero relevance on the plot of the movie or tv show.
I think that "Close" (2022) did that without all the usual baggage.
The last of us 2
like how every horror movie has a token black kid that dies first, now every movie and show has a token trans kid that the main character has to support in a positive campy way. i dont watch star wars to hear ewoks bitching about how they would rather be wookies.
the day i see "six foot tall ewok goes through conversion therapy" im out.
Good movie - "We need to get from point A to point B, but we have to pass through points C and D unexpectedly to get there and learn and grow as people thanks to the detour".
Bad movie - "We need to get from point A to point B, but we're going to C because B doesn't matter anyway".
Subversion for subversion sake is a big one. At a basic level its actually probably the biggest. Plot after plot just devolves into nonsense with no pay off. The twist is always that something is way dumber than anyone in the audience could have guessed. So to look like they have outsmarted the audience the writers garbage their own foreshadowing and so render everything before the end, irrelevant. So yeah, Game of Thrones is still king of the trash heap on that one.
The last time this happened to me and I allowed it was Pokemon Moon. I felt that Team Skull wasn't that big of a threat, but then there was the opening cinematic and later the Aether Foundation and I wasn't surprised a single bit
Another modern writing troupe Drinker has touched on is the lack of character development that comes from the hero's journey. More protagonists are starting out as already-perfect individuals, and their quest is to break the barriers repressing their full potential. That's a terrible lesson to teach an audience because it says you don't need to study, train or practice to gain a proficiency or grow as a person. If you're not great at something on Day 1, the problem is that something or someone outside your control is holding you back, so you're not accountable for your shortcomings.
It's because men and women have different roles in storytelling. Men act, women are. Men are useless nobodies until they prove their worth to the audience, women start with a baseline of audience sympathy. You can write around it with characters like Ellen Ripley, but it's very easy to fall into the trap of writing female characters without any character flaws or adversity when your politics require that they not be written to be individuals, they are "Women characters". Modern writers aren't aware of this because they have internalised the false proposition that men and women are equal and can be interchanged with no difficulty.
One of the terms coined for what you were both talking about is a screenwriting term called "Chekhov's Gun" which is, if you have a moment in your movie where an important object is set up (like a gun) then there must be a payoff by the third act in which we see that object given a purpose (shoot the gun). So this trend of subversion for subversions sake is a really irritating gimmick which has certainly been made famous by the likes of Rian Johnson who seem to think its clever when it's actually very irritating and ultimately the audience feels like they have wasted their time because they were fed a ton of pointless information that had no pay off.
I think one reason writers have written “woke” movies and lost their audiences is because they were never amongst the public. Many of today's writers went to elite high schools and elite colleges. They never met or worked with the regular public. Only similar “woke” folks with “woke” experiences.
I have been working my way through a “Twilight Zone” anthology. I read about Rod Serling’s background. He was a combat paratrooper in WWII. One thing about guys like Serling, William Wyler, or director John Ford is that they mixed with people from all walks of life. They ate, worked with, socialized with, and fought alongside people ranging from Texas cowboys to coal miners to Ivy leaguers. They met people from such broad backgrounds and learned from them. They could write to, relate to, appeal to, and reach these people with their stories, shows and movies. The could mix messages into projects in ways the audience could understand without preaching because they knew how to relate to their audience.
Great point. Really well said. Writers today lack the same kind of life experience.
It's almost as if they had a DIVERSE background of experiences from which to draw from... But true diversity comes from people who look different according to modern writers.
There is definitely a disconnect between the elite writers, studio execs etc. than the mainstream audience, You are right that in WW2, the Vietnam war, the Korean War a lot of writers and actors were mingled with middle American whether it was Eddie Albert invading a Japanese Island, Michael Caine nearly getting killed in the Korean War and the Director Oliver Stone was in Vietnam. Gene Rodenberry was a progressive, but he was a fighter pilot and a cop before becoming a writer, these people understood the struggles of everyday people and could connect.
Woke doesn’t mean elite , or Black people would not have created the term as they are among the most marginalized people in the USA . Elites are the problem , yes. White , wealthy , mostly male writers and directors.
Great post! I’m a huge Rod Serling/Twilight Zone fan. Serling was also a boxer in his early life.
Based Critical Drinker. Well done for getting him in for exposure and conversation.
Films that make people think are a good thing; films that tell people what to think are propaganda. For example, most modern documentaries on political or social issues are actually just propaganda. They don't start with questions and seek answers, they start with the conclusion and look for things that support that conclusion.
Brilliant move having Drinker on with an more serious conversation.
When they said that writers should grab you attention in the first few lines I think of Star Wars IV where that big ass Star destroyer appears and fills the entire theater screen for 10 seconds before the screen changes. I was hooked on Star Wars after that until Disney.
All of this is great! I couldn't agree more. I'm particularly annoyed by the ubiquitous Mary Sue trend of today, as well as the constant spoon feeding of writer's social politics, but the one that really got me thinking was "subversion for subversion's sake". It reminded me of the show Heroes. First season everyone was wild for it, and a big part of that was the promise that Hiro would become a bad-ass. We all watched to see how that developed, but season after season went by, and it never happened, in fact the character just became some of a parody of the bumbling buffoon he was in season 1. Heroes tried to reinvent itself every season to win people back but the fans hated it. Meanwhile the answer was in front of the writers the entire time. Just give the fans what you promised them
The sad thing about Game of Thrones is that we will never see that level of hype and excitement for a series ever again. That is the one show I can think of that could have gone 10 (maybe even 12) seasons without overstaying its welcome. Even if they were to do a restart on the books and do them properly, it would never again reach that level of anticipation.
I firmly believe they did it on purpose
First time?
@@blackswan4486 I doubt they're smart enough. The most likely explanation is a lack of talent and effort on the part of the showrunners and GRRM having long ago run out of ideas and forgetting what made his books so good in the first place.
I don’t know that the problem with Rey, at least in _The Force Awakens,_ was proactive wokeness… I saw it more as just lazy writing. JJ thought that since she was a woman, and that was a first for a _Star Wars_ 1A lead character, that people would like the character no matter what, and they didn’t have to bother giving her any depth or compelling motives.
"I bypassed the compressor."
Girl, you just literally ripped it out...
If you were to tell me….. that all my favorite stories or movies, in any format and all the major ones like Hollywood, we’re going to be not only destroyed but with prejudice! Yeah I would of not believed it! Stories and their heroes and characters are what I enjoy the most in my life. 😢
Make your own "fan-fic", that's all these corporate ip owners do anyway
Loved every word of this, from both of you!
Really loved in particular that you mentioned that a good storyteller early on in the story gives the audience promises of how the story will or might end. And when that never happens, especially if the story even does a total 180 away from said promise, then the story is an absolute shit disaster of a let-down! The promise becomes a lie. And who in their right mind wants to PAY to be lied to!? No matter if we are talking about cinema or streaming or whatever, the audience is meant to pay for the story. Who wants to pay to be lied to? Or pass on the word that you should go & see this thing if it all ends with a lying disappointment? If you care for someone you don't want to pass a lie on to them!
And all this leads down to that today's entertainment, with very few exceptions, are no longer what I call re-watchable. Why did our massive franchises once become the massive hits they became? Not only because the story teller KEPT their promises in the story itself, the promise was in fact so satisfying that so many of us wanted to experience it again! Willing to PAY for it again! Hence why often SW audiences back in the day, or even during the Prequels, saw these films several times & then buying the films several times in different formats as they came along. ROTJ just recently managed to pull a small world audience to it's 40th anniversary on the big screen, despite the fact that there was no marketing for it's re-release & far more importantly that all who care for the film already owns it & can see it at home whenever they want, but some decided to go & PAY to see it again anyway! because ROTJ is a movie that keeps its story promises! Because the film has a red thread to all the previous films, included the Prequels. Because the film has re-watchability. And it was made by people that wanted to keep their promise, not lie to us just because they feel like it & thinks that makes them cool.
Salute! Excellent comment! BRAVO! ❤
Test audiences hated the original ending to National Lampoons Vacation. It had Wally World closed and the Griswold's went to the owner's house and wrecking his backyard party. The test audience said the whole movie they talked about Wally World, we want to see them in Wally World.
My pet peeve, a series set in 1800s England with a Lord who is black - the UK upper class at that time did not have people who were black.
I use to have a new fav movie every 10 years. Not anymore, it’s still the Matrix from 1999 and terminator 2 from 1992😊
The best possible way is to stop paying any attention. Vote with your wallet and embrace the Iron Age. There are a lot of indie creators with amazing comics, games, movies, and books.
I actually really like subversion of expectations as a plot device WHEN it's used intelligently. I absolutely love Attack on Titan's subversion of they typical anime trope of "work together as a team, trust your friends, work hard, and you can succeed!" (spoilers for Season 1 below)
When the Female Titan is chasing the Levi squad in the forest, we get this entire flashback scene which is supposed to make us feel all warm and fuzzy about the members of the team trusting each other. The squad first didn't trust Eren, but then they came to trust him and even put their lives in his hands. Likewise, Eren comes to realize that if they can do that for him, he can do the same for them. He decides to trust them after the flashback, and it's set up to be this total anime moment of "trust your teammates and you can do amazing things!".
However, with a few swift moves, the female titan goes on to ENDS all our heroes without any struggle. The squad does not die heroically. They are all quickly swatted like flies. BUT this trope/expectation subversion isn't just there to "hahaha we subverted the audience's expectations!". It's there to make us think- to ask ourselves if we are living with rose colored glasses on, and it's telling us that even though it's nice, warm, and fuzzy to live with those glasses on, in the end our unrealistically optimistic views of the world CANT save us from the cruel realities of life. It's setting up a major theme for the anime - sometimes traditional heroes don't win. Sometimes the monsters win.
i disagree on one point, they didnt die without a fight, they even take her down and you get to see how good they are for a minute
And that's why I have no interest in AoT. I watch stuff for escapism. I want heroics and fuzzy feels.
That's why I have zero interest in 95% of modern Hollyweird and Disney and just watch Hololive VTubers and play games.
@@blacklightvirus5204 that's fair
@Zephyre Razortail That's fine, you do you, but I wouldn't equate AoT to modern Hollywood stuff. Stories can be dark without being shit. Today Hollywood may be dark shit, but that doesn't mean all dark stories are shit.
@@audreyandremington5265 Sorry yeah. But they're just both that I have no interest in watching. That's it.
That's fucking AWESOME, you guys were talking about old guys passing on their knowledge, and how it isn't done anymore, and the first thought in my head was Maverick!
At least we got Maverick
Shows how desperate people are 😂
@@simonfilmfan4899 yeah, desperate for good entertainment... we've been starved from it.
I just watched Transformers: Bumblebee for the first time and didn't like it for most of the exact reasons mentioned here. Angsty Boss Chick lead. Dopey out of touch Stepdad. Jokes ruining the levity of every emotional moment. Black and Brown Kids Good vs White and Asian Kids Bad. Social Messaging smacking you in the face every five seconds. Impossible Situations. I really don't understand it's popularity.
I think there is something to be said about the generational change. When Star Wars came out in 1977, there were a lot of old people around who had fought in World War I and there were working-aged people who had been adults during the Great Depression and World War II. The old people back then really had earned their respect and definitely had wisdom to offer.
The old people of today have lived through, what, the British Invasion and the largest economic growth in world history? I can see how kids these days don't respect their elders the way my generation did.
It certainly is. Though nothing new under the sun. It's just the same old, the difference is that the western morals have gone mentally ill. I can still remember the news in the 90's, how the west is better then the rest and we have to spread our liberal thoughts about the liberation of women etc. over to this backwater place with cavemen called the Middle East. Backwards thinking I think the muslims got the right idea. Coz where did it take us? Well you only have to look at the destruction of the family unit and the amount of divorces of the boomers and how utterly miserable western women in general feel after their so called 'liberation'. Currently it's more of the same, we've gone back to the Middle East with our 'liberal' ideas except now we have mentally ill woke diversity/equity/gender is a social construct material littering the garbage dumbs outside Bagdad, decaying under the desert sun, a memorial to how fucked up the west has become since.
tell me you're a moron without telling me you're a moron..
let me remind you that all your freedom of speech and civil rights you owe it to your boomer grandpa..
It’s wild how they’re gonna do the exact same character deconstruction thing with Indy. It just shows how they haven’t learned and just don’t care.
"Conspicuous Diversity" . Genius, I love it. I also love the movies in historical contexts where the woman is "conspicuously diverse" when people of the time would have nailed her to a cross for her brash bullying in the name of female equality. Leads me to the young kids these days who cancel great heroes because they did something that we consider not woke now. These fools, in their childish hubris think they would have been brave enough not to follow the crowd of the time when they are only following the crowd blindly today.
How do we stop this? Stop watching their movies. For those who worship Mammon, poverty is like damnation.
What bothers me is all the "special effects" wrapped around a thin plot.
Oh they’re special alright
@@richardconforti6271 Look at any 2023 film trailer. Soulless bland garbage that looks like a video game. No fun or entertainment.
Remove the shitty plot, and suddenly Transformer movies are good, though not necessarily movies.
Once upon a time, writers told their stories. On occasion, those stories would also convey a message, but the message was usually incidental, and not the focus of the story.
Today, writers begin with a message, and try to craft a story around it. Big difference; and it doesn't work.
Yep, the message wasn't spelled out in big bold characters and yelled at the audience, but people actually had to do some thinking for themselves and not everyone really even got the message. Now it's all about the message and it's so clear what the message is. I mean if the first 5 minutes of a show or movie is just screaming a message as loud as possible in my ear, then I'll just shut it off and never return to it again.
I mean, overall, I agree. Especially when it comes to movies.
But historically, both ways have been done. For that matter, most literature and story-writing throughout history has had some purpose of conveying a message, since books, plays, etc. were expensive to make and distribute, and someone powerful with money (and a political interest) had to pay for it.
If you want an example, take Plato's works about Atlantis in the books Timaeus and Critias, written 2300 years ago.
Historians agree that Plato most likely made the entire story up to convey a very political message about the ideal state and that Athens should be more like it was in the "good old days", when it allegedly was more like Sparta and defeated the Atlanteans through its martial spirit, rather than its contemporary "decadent" state Plato thought it had ended up in.
Or for that matter, most religious texts and stories, have been written by men as a way to justify their political power.
I'd wager that even during the 20th century, we can find very many books and movies written with an ideological intent, be they communistic ones in the Eastern Block and China, or Freedom-ones in the West. Pretty sure for example that 1984, which I consider to be one of the best books out there, was very much intentionally written to convey a message about anti-totalitarianism. That goes for animal-farm as well.
Point is, I agree to hell and back with the assessment that too many movies today are overtly and impolitly politicised, and in a way which comes at the expense of the quality of the story, but as a historian, I'd just want to point out that it is far from a new occurrence, and that there also are many good stories out there where the writer has begun with a message, and then have successfully tried to craft a story around it afterwards. :)
I've made this same point myself, and compare it to Christian fiction back in the 70s and 80s. The story always took a back seat to the message, and so was always a crappy story. Modern writers are doing the same thing, only woke-ism is the religion.
@@jeezus666 Yes. I think it was Chocolat, I got the message in the first five or ten minutes... chocolate good, religion bad. And I turned it off.
@@jeezus666 _Yep, the message wasn't spelled out in big bold characters and yelled at the audience_
Or if it was, it was done artfully and entertainingly. See some of the speeches from the movie _Network_ for example. There's a definite point of view being clearly expressed, but it's done so damn well, with the writing and acting top-notch.
Honestly, I read DC more than Marvel as a kid, but I still had some and read enough of them to remember being annoyed, even as a kid, by the pervasive quips and banter, in combat, no less. Seemed to be a trait of the comics, so it never surprised me it was in the movies
Had no idea Tom Green was so versed in screen writing
My bum is on this film
Cool interview
Critical drinker has precisely and exactly explained why I haven't spent a penny on Movie theatre/Hollywood box office movies, in YEARS.
Well, that's just you. Even the Drinker has found at least a couple movies each year to shower praise on
Fucking nailed that with Maverick.
Can always trust a fellow Scot!
There likely is a small market for woke girl-boss action movies. Hollywood should make as many of these sort of films as the market will bear. The market for male fantasy action films is undoubtably MUCH larger. If Hollywood is too stupid or stubborn to service this market someone else will. Within a few years AI will have dramatically increased the number of people who can make films with good production values. If Hollywood ever had a monopoly on shaping people's thoughts... it certainly won't for much longer.
And you're wrong. I guess you never lived through the 80's.
@@gloriathomas3245 If you can't see the difference between the style of storytelling in the 1980s versus the 2020s, you need to look again.
@@primmakinsofis614 Dude, I grew up in the 80s and 90s and guess what? I see no absolutely no difference in what today compared to back then. For crying out loud tons of TV shows and movies made back would be considered "woke" going by the definition being thrown around.
Girl-boss action movie with good writing = good
Girl-boss action movie with bad writing = bad
This isn't tricky.
If you want movies featuring strong male leads, may i suggest the majority of movies from any year ever?
This was a great talk we need to honor the our old heroes and do them justice!
Artistic / Theatrical License is something everyone understands. It allows storytellers and movie makers to be creative in writing and making casting decisions for a movie. People also understand that forced diversity has nothing to do with the creative process. Once you make something a requirement, and stipulate its various components, it's no longer a work of art; it's a product.
The mindset of, we gotta tear down the past and start again is scary. That was the mindset behind the Cultural Revolution
They should make a comedy movie called Not another strong female character
or not another token trans character for no reason.
Dude, that would be, unironically, a banger,
And bashed into oblivion by Twitter.
Is that all you incels worry about lmao? oh no a female lead...ive never seen people so worried about bullshit. Who cares?
As a young filmmaker who has been to a festival it just seems like EVERY movie being made is about someone’s identity or a MESSAGE. Not all ofcourse but unfortunately way too many.
Can you imagine how the movie Top Gun: Maverick would have turned out if modern woke writers had anything to do with it? Maverick would have been a washed-up old man sent to train new pilots for their mission. They wouldn't have listened to him, because he has nothing to teach them as they're all brilliant pilots already, especially the female pilots. Then a badass boss babe, probably a black lesbian, would have been the one to successfully complete the mission after saving Maverick from certain death (because he's now useless) and she saves the day and is the real hero of the movie. Yawn!
Man, I'm glad brainless people didn't touch it. Saw it recently and it's been YEARS since I loudly cheered. Even tho I know he'll be fine, there was tension.
Also love that Maverick is the best of the best of the best. After years of deconstructed and ruined heroes, I needed that.
@@zephyrerazortail5478 Totally agree.
So you just want your man characters to not change or develop at all and have no flaws whatsoever? This is childish, you just want your characters to stay the same and not be challenged at all.
@@SoyboyPeter Totally the opposite! Most male characters in movies have flaws, need training, and need to improve. Whereas most female characters in today's movies are perfect from the get-go, basically Mary Sues. An example would be Rey in Star Wars, or Mulan in the live-action movie.
lovely to see Critical Drinker's eyes for a change
I was a big fan of Magnum p.i.. When they did the re-boot, they dropped off the old British Sergeant Major who had been a tough old bloke in his day and who'd learned a lot of wisdom. Instead, they brought in a woman to be equal to Magnum. Then, they had episodes where she was involved in gun fights and fist fights and car chases - equal to that of Magnum. Except it was obvious to everyone watching that she was a good-looking girl cast for her eyes and her body, and the idea that she could punch a 6'2" 250 lbs man and knock him out on one punch was just rediculous.
You are interviewing The Drinker? You got good taste mate so you gained another subscriber!
The whole dam building is on fire 🔥 and everyone inside it says, “this is fine, no problems here” thanks for purging yourself Hollywood
The sad thing about Marvel Humor (TM) is it used to actually be extremely quick witted and really fun. It was even funny.
I thought maybe people just got burnt out on it / fatigue, but went and watched some Avengers era movies - they hold up. Sharp banter being bounced off each other so fast and it might even qualify as clever quite often. The quality has degraded, horribly, over time.
I used to go to the movies 2 or 3 times a month. I havent been to the movies because of this since 2017.
Subversive Diversity, I love that term. I noticed it in Sandman when the entire cast was apparently queer or gay, I couldn't help but wonder how the world was populated.
I want you all to take a moment and imagine something. The Critical Drinker hosting the Oscars, roasting everybody, and at the end he says, "anyway, that's all I've got for today; Go away now!". A sweet fantasy.
THAT I would watch! I've not watched any Oscars show in 20+ years.
The first movie that really hit me hard regarding subverting expectations. To Live and Die in L.A.
One of my favorites .
Hold up. You mean to tell me that the crtical drinker..... Is not always drunk?
I question my life now.
Brandon Sanderson is an amazing author. I read his books for decades. More of his works should have movies or cartoons. And he should at least be consulted during the writing process.
I think the excessive use of subversion started with Lost, the TV series. The thing about modern viewers is that we have social media. The audience is smarter in the sense that we see a lot of movies and shows, and we can discuss all of it online. And sometimes, the audience will foresee the ending. Then the writers try to make a new one that the audience cant foresee. But you cant be smarter than everyone all the time. So, "subversion" is an easy way out.
That is definitly a major factor in bad writing decisions in media. TV, Films, Games, I'm sure it's in books too. The writers convey things well, the audience collectively figures out where it is going, and then instead of saying "Yes! We did it!" the writers/management panics that "No! They can't know ahead of time! Change it!" The results never standing up to the original idea, because it can't have the same time, creative drive or proper build up. The go to example for me would be Mass Effect, where some folks took the clues from the first two games and figured out the rough outline of the twist. They could do that because both collectively they can throw more work hours at it, and because people proposed everything under the sun. The things that fit with the info the audience have tend to stand out and get support because of it. Instead of going through with the original plan and maybe after the fact saying "Congratulations on figuring it out ahead of time!" they derailed everything just to avoid that guess being correct.
@@Sorain1 this is exactly whan i meant, but worded better.👍
Lost was an absolute disaster. I have so little trust into television series I don't even bother with them. The gall of studios wanting to have their cake and eat it too by leaving a story unfinished so they have the option for a second season then deciding to not do another one is insulting. There are thousands of books that exist that have actual endings. If I'm going to invest 10 hours of my time into something that doesn't wrap anything up and then is never finished so they can have 'options', nope. Get lost I say! I'll spend 10 hours reading a book.
@@SuperMegaWoofer3000 Lost is when you try to build on show on the surprise factor only, then you find out that you cant outwit your audience forever but you keep going bc the money is so good.
I’m subscribed to both of these guys!.!.
WE LIVE IN ANIMAL FARM. THEY DON'T WANT KIDS TO LISTEN TO THEIR ELDERS
I agree with what they were saying about the older characters. It reminds me of Eric Ericson’s final stage: Generationalism vs. Stagnation.
It seems like the majority of Hollywood writers focus on the latter.
"Supplanted by a new generation which is far better" aptly describes what's happening today. If you are over 45 years old, you know s&%t but that 20-something is vastly superior in "correct" knowledge and experience (after all, the old experience is the wrong experience). Wisdom is not valid anymore nor is exceptional life experience. Unless, of course, you are an elder from some lost tribe or indigenous group that has little experience in the modern world.
There is another one. The Fast and The Furious: Tokyo Drift. Han of the Franchise teaches a teenager, (The usual Thirty something playing a Teenager.) how to drift. There is a hero's journey and all of the other good stuff that is in a movie where the main hero is put into a situation where he fails, has his butt handed to him and then has to have a Master teach him so yes, he can save the day and win the girl over and a happily ever after, (In a way.)
Non sunglasses Drinker scares me
I absolutely hated Star Wars for making Luke Skywalker a potential killer and the reason Kylo Ren turned bad. I’m all for flawed heroes but this wasn’t a flaw, it was lazy writing and totally out of character after everything Luke had seen and done in Eps IV-VI.
drinker's actually a pretty good looking guy. no wonder tatyana is so into him.
That's why how i met your mother ending sucked. The whole show was building an expectation of us to meeting the mother at the end, only for it to be robin all along
Who knew that the 80s would end up being the golden age of modern movie making. Where folks enjoyed just watching a movie not a lecture from the most pampered elites on the planet.
You missed how Glass Onion:
- made the white guy the villain (of course); and then made them stupid
- made all minority characters virtuous
Then there’s Enola Holmes - so Sherlock is now inferior to Enola, and criminal genius Moriarty is recast as a black woman
Imagine what Endgame would have looked like had the Russo's not stood up to Feige?
'my time was abused' is such a great phrase to throw at Thrones season 8
At the start of Game of Thrones, I decided to try the books. I went to my local book store and opened one of the books in a random place and read. It went on for two pages talking about a random minor person and then killed them. I put it down and left someone who wastes that much paper and my time for nothing wasn't worth it.
The later books used random throwaway characters as a POV character to show off what the important side characters were doing.
That was kind of weird...
But the books were actually good, even when nothing significant happened.
8:40 Wow, I have never thought of this. It is so accurate, they way society looks at boomers with disgust MUST have some weight in why we cant get the import old mentor characters anymore!
Skyfall was the most egrecious example of "deconstructed hero" for me. I stopped watching Bond movies after that. I liked Daniel Craig as Bond, but I didn't need to see a broken loser with mommy issues.
Next 2 were even worse. So good decision on your part.
I lost interest after Craig's first movie. Grew up with Brosnan's Bond, so the realistic approach didn't appeal to me.
The promises can be subverted but fullfilled at the same time. Tidus, in final fantasy x, wanted to ho back to his home in zanarkand. And man, he did, but in a subverted way...
I felt a bit like a cheap whore for liking Top Gun 2 as much as I did. I laughed at the spots where I was supposed to laugh, I was on the edge of my seat when I was supposed to be, etc. It was an extremely predictable, derivative script, but it was executed with so much passion and directorial skill that I bought it hook, line and sinker. It's not great art and it wasn't delusional about its purpose - it's just a VERY fun two hour diversion with no alterier motives for existing.
That's not necessarily a bad thing. Yeah, it might be simple and predictable, but I think people miss that. It's the same, I feel, with villains who are just evil because they are. People wanted every villain to have this tragic backstory and some are just craving for just an evil person
I think it might be worth examining why you felt that way. Because I don't think that's rational and I doubt it came from inside yourself.
It is pretty easy to get caught up in thinking you’re an expensive whore. At the end of the day, if the price is right everyone is cheap, just have to give us what we really want. We don’t always know what that is but we know it when we see it.
All that needs to happen is that people stop watching it, if they don't like it. These shows and films will have to call it quits, if they're not making enough money.
spoiler alert re Guardians
I have no objections to leading female characters, but at least cast ones that are hot.
The lack of the old wise mentor is intentional. The writers today think that the older generation are "boomers" and should be discarded and ignored and that the current generation is better and just knows better and more.
They don’t even respect Gen X
I'm 23 and have been called a boomer for my opinion of movies and shows
The Hollywood studios preach diversity and inclusion, except when it comes to diversity of opinion, then it is the old group think thing.
Not even spider man animation escapes!!! Trans content subliminally present in the movie??? Really??? Sony, really??? You think people are blind???
I found you today, and mate!!!
I’ll be watching you a lot from now on.
Great content.
Lol "other factors". Way to sugar coat it.
The "other factors" that negate the pay gap include trivial matters like:
Hours worked
Job roles
Experience
Qualifications
Little things like that 😂
Also re industries that pay a certain gender more:
Men get paid more in sport for two main reasons
A) males sports attract more interest and revenue
B) women on average do not financially support the sports that they advocate equal pay for. If women watched female sports they would attract more viewers than male sports and therefore more money.
Incidently there are also more female voters than male voters so if women supported a female candidate they would have a massive advantage over any male opponents.... but they don't