STACKING; Changing All End Game Designs | Factorio DLC "Space Age" | FFF-393 Bulk Inserter
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- Опубликовано: 30 июл 2024
- FACTORIO SPACE AGE
Factorio: Space Age continues the player's journey after launching rockets into space. Discover new worlds with unique challenges, exploit their novel resources for advanced technological gains, and manage your fleet of interplanetary space platforms.
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Hello, I (kovarex) am the developer who made the generic/parametrised blueprints. I wasn't doing it just to "make things generic" but it was motivated by specific designs I had in my playthgouth which were very annoying/cumbersome to properly configure whenever I built the blueprint.
For the dependent parameters, one nice example is a bot mall blueprint with requester/provider chests. I can use the dependent ingredient parameters to request the proper items, while the number formulas could be to calculate proper counts of items based on the recipe crafting speed and ingredient need for the specific recipe. But there are certainly more examples.
I do think it's something I'm going to have to play around with to get the hang of, where faster belts are obvious in how they'll be used
This is the most exciting one yet! Going to be very awesome to use this with lots of complex builds! The QOL fixes that have come in the recent FFF are just mind-blowing.
Whether the parametrized blueprint feature gets accepted or not depends on how the user interface evolves. It is too crude right now. Having less copies of the same blueprint is great.
if you @factorio3375 indeeed are kovarex, could you then perhaps look into the possibility to zoom in on our blueprints, it would be particularly helpfull for us, that builds large blueprints, and dident notice a small misplaced item, and want to remove it. :D
Hi Kovarex. The game you guys made has changed my life
8:35 You have a very specific play style, Nilaus. Most people don't play that way, and will of course have pain points you don't.
The benefits of bulk inserters also apply to loading/unloading trains, so even though they may lose in shorter distances, they're still relevant for longer distances.
What I liked about Deadlock's Stacking in regards to trains was that I could basically compress a 200 Stack of plates into a compressed 40 Stack, and then my Stack Inserte actually moved like 10 items of those at ones, which made loading and unloading of trains so much faster.
The name collision is very confusing so they should hopefully clear that up.
I believe you aren't seeing the benefits of parametrized blueprints yet as we haven't gotten all the new features yet. When I was watching your last megabase playthrough, I noticed you were doing a lot of copying and pasting from one block to the next, especially at the train loading and unloading. Parametrized blueprints for that in and of itself would be more useful, especially when you had a bug or two when you forgot to change a parameter, and all of a sudden, a block wasn't working properly. If we're going to have more than one base, on different planets, and asteroids, we don't want bugs to pile up and go unnoticed for long periods of time. Also, as others suggested, you/we may want to have quality stations, so the recipe would be the exact same, only the quality changes, and that would be useful as a parameter.
New Player in 2.0: "Oh, stack inserter. What does this do?"
Veteran player: "It moves multiple items at once."
"Cool. What about this bulk inserter?"
"It moves items in a stack."
"Like the stack inserter?"
"No, not at all. The stack works with bulk and the bulk inserter makes stacks."
"-_-"
Yeah, I hope the adjust the names!
Seems they did
The obvious solution to train fuel is electric trains. Ah, a man can dream.
With overhead wires…
@K-o-R That would be great, won't need dedicated fuel station fore each factory stations.
Would be great if rails carried power. No need to lay tracks, then go back and build power poles.
Like an oversize train set. Doubles as an electric fence for biters!
Really hope that the long inserter will:
* Get one more stack upgrade so it has a hand size of 4 instead of 3, so it can grab full stacks
* Will in some way be fast enough to grab from 60/s belts
Long inserters are awesome. They make designs more interesting, and are amazing for complex recipes or assembly lines with many inputs. Let's hope they'll still be nice to use.
Top quality long inserters will be 150% faster though.
@@sillymonkey725 Let's hope that it will be fast enough to grab from 60/s belts!
@@kazaakas 150% faster makes them 25% faster than current fast inserters are. Never had an issue with those ever, unless power was low. And if they can't grab from tier 4 belts, then that's pretty bad.
Configurable inserters ftw.
I think you overlooked a scenario where the Parametrised Blueprints will be GREAT, which is not so strange since we haven't played with it yet. But imho it will be really good for quality builds where you build a lot of something and recycle most of it just to get higher quality. :)
Yes, that was the #1 motivation, for all the feature set (dependent parameters, number fomrulas etc), #2 are unloading station, #3 are bot based mall items, and there are more.
So the parameterized blue prints become useful to me mostly because you can set recipes in assemblers with parameters. There are then special values that contain all the ingredients and products so you should be able to make generic 2, 3, 4 etc, input rail outpost blueprints that auto-config when stamping down a blueprint. I'm pretty sure generic blueprints can change part of the station name. (they look like they are implemented as text find-and-replace function call) So I think they will allow more station designs to have 3-4 click configuration than now. Particularly multi-drop station designs will benefit.
Fyi, with multi-drop stations you can use buffer quantity to set train priorities. So that's one place where x, 2x, etc would help me.
I've never seen the point in Multi item stations, you can't realisticly support more than 1-2 blue belts per wagon at most.
Sooo I guess they're potentially practical for smaller builds where you have no reason to "just make it bigger", it'd have to take several different item and not consume any of them in any real quantity.
Leaving pretty much just robot frames as the only candidate as far as I can tell, tho that is just for vanilla.
When you talked about stack inserters not stacking, you really got your inner product manager come to light!
I wasn't bothered by the name until he brought it up, and now I think they absolutely need to address it. Also, the other bulk inserter is gonna be long-handed, right? It just has to be.
You have stacks on the belt vs. stacks as in full inventory slots.
@@callum.dokkodoactually, no
the second placeholder was for the filter bulk one, but now that they considered removing filter inserters entirely, there will be just one new inserter: bulk
Really looking forward for the DLC.
About half the features will be merged into the main game without the DLC, but I also want the DLC :>
when is it coming up
Im really looking forward to those crazy blueprints where you barely understand what will happen when you deploy it.
u can indeed use parameterised blueprint to change the icons in the train stop name❤
cant wait for this DLC! its been over a year since i last played and it keeps creeping into my brain more and more often that i should play again.
i realy hope they release it soon!
Play Satisfactory or Dyson Sphere Program instead, they're way better than Factorio these days
@@ZM-dm3jg already did ;)
Thanks Nilaus. I've been waiting to hear your take on these updates. I have to admit though, I thought you were going to geek out over the parameterized blueprints but you proved me wrong :) I appreciate hearing your point of view.
the old stack one should be called bulk because it is a indefinite amount. the new one should be stack inserter, because it does actually that, stacks. but yeah, nothing is better than the piling inserter 😂
I imagine this use case for parameterized blueprints: a generic city block of assemblers that take 3 inputs and have 1 output could have the stations and assemblers all configured at once when you stamp it down
Hmm... Filter burner inserters? Possibly some use in the early game for single- belt ore smelting, with iron ore on one side and copper on the other?
I wonder if inserters will have filters right from the start or if we'll have to get the ability to filter somewhere down the tech tree.
@@andrewplehn4805The Devs haven't mentioned locking filtering behind research anywhere as of yet so it's highly likely it's just something we get from the get go
The answer is stacked trains. 😮
Doble decked trains or x4
Maybe reach stack is 4x bigger in a train. Instead of throwing all the items in, they play stack tetris and fit 4x as much
@rookiebeotch
That would be great, lowering train amount, improving UPS in mega bases. I would even be good with lowering train speed for double trains by 50% for realism.
It`s been a long time since i last saw a Nilaus video in my recomendations. Pressed LIKE instantly. Also, it`s been a long time since i last played Factorio, so i`m eager to see your new Blueprints
was wondering when that huge info leak from factorio devs would end up on your channel nilaus :p thanks as always for the video from one of the most helpful people in the game community cheers!!!!
The visual bugs in the clips are what surprises me the most. The shadows on the final video are jumping around like crazy. Makes me think that this is a very recent addition.
going to be super interesting for sure!
Man, great changes and great sumarized video
i think with higher quality trains and the new rails (more rail angles, elevated rails) trains will still be relevant in scale compared to endgame 240/s belts. another thing i really like is how only bulk inserters can stack, so maybe we will see like a normal blueprint and at the end a "8 to 2 belt stacker"? maybe the blueprints will all use bulk inserters for output? love the concept, and hopefuly less belts also means better performance
I am following some discussions online somewhere else. It is crazy how some people struggle to fully realize how this will change logistics: bulk inserters and a new convey belt tier.
Parameterized blueprints allow you to do the dyson sphere program 3 input recipe without having to change the recipe in 32 assemblers.
Factorio ILS confirmed?!?
(There's even the possibility of mega-base-scale blueprints involving multiple RAIL-unload stations, filtered inserters, assemblers that can ALL be configured by clever assignment of parameters) meaning, you could have a generic blueprint that includes stations and factories, and everything gets set up for what that "section" of a mega base BUILDS based on what you assign it to when stamped down. Parameters can also likely configure filtering on inserters, balancers, logistics items, and items NOT YET released/discussed yet in FFF.
I hate how thick a BUS can get. This is so much more clean.
Yeah you raise a good point about trains. We'll still want to use trains for long distance hauling, but for them to keep pace with the crazy new belts we'll need even more trains on the track which will slow down train throughput (even with new intersectionless train track designs becoming available).
You can still unload trains with bulk inserters, or unload the trains into boxes with fast or stack inserters and then bulk from box to belt, meaning trains may still be viable for long haul travel while stacking may be viable for short to medium distances
Holy crap dude. I've been playing Dyson Sphere project again because of your series where you like a madman took on what was it 25 bases? I'm just doing "normal" difficulty and building in these factory games always feels so complex. I downloaded your entire blueprint folder on google drive. Been helping a metric ton but my god my head still spins lol
The bulk inserter is a game changer for me
I assume with parameterized blueprints you can get away with less blueprints in general, having like a small amount generic blueprints for a big variety of builds sounds very useful to me, and having less blueprints serving more scenarios sounds amazing. Maybe this is not helping hardcore omega base builders, but for me as a casual this sounds really good.
Don't worry about trains, they won't disappear because of green belts and stacks. They won't even lose any ground.
Bulk inserters and green belts are locked behind techs found on other planets. Not trains.
I expect those tier 4 belts to be very, VERY expensive. Look at the cost difference between red and blue ones. By how many folds will they raise the cost for the next tier? Also, rewind to the quality feature they announced. They said that at best (meaning, when using grade A+ quality modules), top quality items will be 50+ times the cost or normal ones. They are not afraid of creating resource dumps. I got a feeling those belts will be one too.
As it is in 1.1, it is easy for an average experience player to build tracks that let 1 cargo wagon through per second, on average. That's accounting for locomotives, distance between trains, the need for crossings where trains have to wait. etc. With the addition of elevated rails, 2 tracks crossing on the same elevation never happens. What was an easy 1 wagon per second will probably become 1.5 to 2 wagons per second. Let's say just 1.5. Wagons carry at least 3k items on average. So a track has an easy possible throughput (not maximum) of 4.5k items per second. That is using all the conservative estimations. That's the capacity of over 18 green belts with stacked items. Over long distance, that is just ridiculous to imagine, on all levels. But especially the crafting cost. Rails are dirt cheap. Then add the fact that even the slow production items likely need a dedicated belt, even if that belt is 20% full. So the 18 belts are not enough anymore. On top of that, I doubt barrels are making a big comeback. Meaning that all fluids should be moved by trains still. If the rail infrastructure is there, might as well use it for all non fluids too.
Bulk inserters, because of their capacity, make train loading/unloading even better.
Those devs love trains so much, I would not be surprised if something, be it new fuel or techs or whatever else, made the trains even faster.
I would not be surprised if loading/unloading also get a boost better than bulk inserters, or if wagons got a capacity boost.
The good old trains are not going anywhere.
I think the complexity with parameterised blueprints solves some niche issues/is a QoL improvement for some people/designs. If someone doesn't want to use them it doesn't particularly affect them.
RED TRAINS FASTER WAAAGH!
I really love these. Do more. Hearing the opinion of somebody who’s passionate about the subject is the same reason why we watch political commentators or streamers reading patch notes and you talking about blog entries ❤
12:40 - i'm sure they didnt change the bulk and stack names to mess with you 😆
I can't wait for a mod to provide us with stack mini loaders 😊
commenting to tell the algo i want more of this
My poor robots are gonna need some serious capacity upgrades to deal with this bulk stacker. Also I really hope trains get a capacity upgrade or just a straight up new and better train cars to unlock.
We definitely need stacked cargo wagons
Not sure how yet, but I bet some smart people out there will find some really good uses with those parameter options for things like the supply rockets and space stations.
I personally do not share your opinion regarding the Parametrised blueprints... Just wrapping up a 5k SPM LTN/City block base, and being able to have a generic LTN loader/unloader BP with a neat pop-up whenever i place it to assign station name and thresholds will be a game changer in terms of expanding. Also, while not applicable to many vanilla builds, for mod packs like bobs+angels, having a generic blueprint for ore refining/ore sorting with recipies and filters as parameters will be a very welcome QOL.
Now we just need to separate blueprints from the inventory and into their own easier accessible interface and default them into that when creating instead of clustering the inventory.
A parameterised build for a x to y balancer would be amazing quality of life IMHO.
It would be evil to make, but just imagine.
Also, I'm hoping to use it as a reminder for "don't forget station names". We have all been there....
Stack inserter -> express inserter | bulk inserter -> stack inserter
stacks and bulks
They could add train capacity as a research. Will fix the use for them compared to belt stackedbulked.
Higher quality inserters move faster, so they can empty trains faster, I still think that trains will be very useful for long haul travel but maybe not for the shorter stuff, plus you still have to get to the point where you have them unlocked
Yea true. Also, trains! Wheeee
I imagine the new greens belt and stacking will be comparatively expensive compared to trains. Probably not a problem for mega bases but before that it may be cost prohibitive to replace trains.
I bet that busses will have stack balancers every so often similar to how they have lane balancers.
With the introduction of numerous new concepts, I hope the developers will actively seek feedback from external sources to understand how end-users perceive the game. This approach would contribute to the creation of a well-rounded product upon release. In the past, the game underwent development with continuous feedback, yielding absolutely outstanding results. While the developers have likely gained valuable insights on what to do and what to avoid, I believe maintaining a short feedback loop remains beneficial.
I understand the want/need to not go into these posts blind (so you can think about it/prepare, and have the content be more digestible especially for newer audiences) but I would love to see initial reactions and what trains of thought you end up going down.
Perhaps a recorded or streamed live reaction to the post then summarised content later?
Either way, appreciate your thoughts!
The pain of semi-generic blueprints isn't bad in vanilla, but in more complex mods I think the parameterized blueprints can make a huge difference!
There is always a little ork within everyone of us =)
We have seen updates for trains, belts and inserters. Really hoping they also introduce some gamechanging thing for bots, seeing. Wishing that the happily ever after crying bot is a wink to this weeks FFF.
They had the update to make bots smarter, so they have technically done bots as well
They're changing the names!! They've listened to you!! They just confirmed it in the latest FFF (and I watched this video 10 minutes before that lol)
In the ir3 mod i would put 3 stations named fuel and a train limmit of 7, the problem is the trains would spend more time fueling up then moving goods..
It worked but 50 hours in it showed it wasnt a good sulution
Factorio goes full DSP 😀
i imagine these super high level belts and inserters will be locked behind very high level research
It is always interesting when someone has an idea: "we need to do x to solve y" and then someone goes: yeah... but what if we generalize that?!?...
this is huge
Can't wait to pile sheet and wire coils in my sea block game for insane capacity. Who needs warehouses anyway?
Use case
Make blueprints for 1/2/3/4 inputs 1 output and just past them where you need with single parametr of output
On the blueprint thing, while I wouldn't use it in my blueprints... I can see it being useful in mods for automation if a mod tool wanted to make some self building base mod using blueprints...
Some benefits of parameterization will not be understood until the game is actually released....there are new resources, new planets, new recipes, new inserter capabilities... A LOT.....to the expansion (and a lot unknown) ----there will be uses for things like interrupts, parameterization of blueprints, etc that we haven't really even begun to scratch the surface yet...
The bulk inserters that stack, ah! They should have a different design. Instead of an arm that moves things it should be a sort of conveur that raises and drops the items into a tall rectangle, once a few items fall, they are on top of each other, and would be pushed forward into the belt, already as a stack, using a two piston pneumatic. Could have burner stack inserters that make a good puff of smoke when pushing or electric ones with smokeless pneumatics or even more advanced ones with magnets.
I want a roboport train with a remote control like the spiderton. I wanna be able to wallace and gromit a train and have it lay power lines and rails as it moves. You could even add a battle wagon to the train. Like an armor train car that uses cannon shells
We have temporary stops that kind of act like a remote control especially for manual trains, and we have the artillery wagons which work like a mobile version of the artillery turret, I think you might even be able to get the spidertron to follow the train and just have a roboport in that
If you'd waited just a few days to put this out, you wouldn't have had to gripe about the stack/bulk confusion.
@StormCrow42 Possibly devs changed name only because Nilaus was confused :) If he wouldn't make video, then devs wouldn't change it.
15:50 that means spaghetti are incoming :D
I think the biggest key is whether storage in trains also gets stacked so you could transfer 4 times the capacity. will see
I think higher quality trains and train cars might help here, I know that high quality spidertrons have a bigger inventory so perhaps that will also be true of train cars, but also higher quality inserters move faster so they can therefore empty trains faster which would increase train throughput
"Red ones go faster" WOT THAT GIT JUST SAY?!
Biggest thing I'm thinking of... New Smelting Design based on 4x the size basically lol
4th wall broken forever! Nilaus looks like Rowan!!?? (VLDL)
So to be clear this is not a vanilla upgrade right? I'm not familiar with factorio roadmap so don't really know if cool upgrades like this are only available from mods or will be eventually added to the original game. I have nothing against mods but I usually prefer to play vanilla in most games, in the case of factorio mods are overwhelming!
I wonder if they'll add hoppers for trains for quicker loading and unloading.
Higher quality inserters move faster so stack inserters would at the highest level move 2.3 times faster than their normal quality counterparts meaning they could also empty a train 2.3 times faster, which should help with throughput because it would mean being able to get twice as many trains through a station in the same timeframe
I was kinda on-board with the critique of the train-unloading, but for the parameterized blueprints, BAD TAKE. These will be amazing.
It would be really cool if they added something similar to a piler from DSP and something that's 6x6 that gives you full belts for unloading trains. Bob's warehouses and loaders already do the full belt part, but nothing to pile that I've found. I just don't like the way inserters unload trains
idk, parametrized blueprints seem to be super useful to me
"*Practically every setting and number you can have in an entity can be reconfigured by this feature. Inserter filters, assembler recipes, circuit network settings, combinator configuration, logistic requests, inventory filters, even rich text icons.*" Taken from the FFF, so I'm pretty sure rich text icons (train station names) are included in this.
I don't really understand why you're negative about this feature and its use cases when you popularized cityblock designs, something this will probably be great for, especially when combining the new flexible train schedules (even the current schedule system would probably work with this) with this feature.
Imagine if, when pasting down your DSP blueprints for 1, 2 or 3 item inputs and one output, you just have to set one variable and nothing else. Not having to set the in or outputs for the PLS, not having to set the recipes in the crafters, just a single pop-up, two clicks and you're done. Or a personal ick I have; setting the filter on a storage chest, recipe in assembler and limiting the inserter. Doesn't take long, but god is it annoying to do more than once.
And the best part; it's completely optional, if you don't like it you don't need to interact with it. Just because the average user won't use it, doesn't mean it's not useful or nice to have.
ty for the summary! We've had faster belts in K2 for a while, but the new stacking is novel. Blueprint metadata looks janky af
was down to get my pc's water cooling rebuild at the place i recommended you to so im on my laptop until i get it back heard about your problem hope you find a solution.
They need to add bigger train wagons or i don't see a point in using them over belts
We need base+megabse in the book v2
Yeah, they really gotta rename the inserters lol or swap the names as bulk is more fitting for the variant that we have now.
fff-394 "So in 2.0, Stack inserters will be renamed to Bulk inserters, and the new inserter which can place stacks of items on belts, will take the name of Stack inserter."
This guy really spent a full minute of the video getting caught up in bulk/stack word semantics like he won’t call them green circuits half the time anyway
lol
You are right, beacon is something eye cathing. Beacon on shoree for ships. Having lines of beacons of somewhat counter-productive.
Stacking four high on belts? Totally not stolen from Dyson Sphere Program, we swear!
Is that like the Deadlocks Stacking mod?
it's an old idea
I'd rather have the trains work like LTN without having to manually route each train.
*Community asks Factorio devs for more programing features.*
*Factorio devs provides us with more than we asked.*
Nilaus:
"Nah man, too generic, good old 'do it by hand' is better, less GUI"
Sorry i cant agree with that, I love your content but I think not enough thought was put into your analysis. You are not obliged to use the GUI not even these features, like most complex stuff in Factorio, they are completely optional, you know that, you know how much care is put into not overwhelming the player with optional stuff. I'm going to use this simply always. Since I only play with my blueprints.
Adding Yet Another Belt Tier sounds kinda... meh. Why not add tier 5 at this point? I'm hoping T4 belts they are somehow mechanically different aside from being faster.
I think your playstyle makes the parameterized blueprints not very useful. I think it's aimed more at players who are iterating on their blueprints quite a bit as they go, and/or building out their base in small increments rather than building large arrays all at once. Suboptimal, sure, but I think probably pretty common.
Current Factorio is becoming more and more unplayable by the week.
Sat there playing like "damn the new expansion would fix this in a second how on earth could I live with this for this long"