This video is a great illustration of the difference between the god Christians claim to believe in and the one they believe they are communicating with and will meet.
Don't get too excited. These are the things that will happen in 2024: 1) Trump is assassinated and the Civil War starts 2) The economic crash 3) More illegal immigration to white Christian countries 4) The right to vote is abolished 5) Atheists will become even more ridiculous 6) The price of food and petrol will reach absurdity 7) More gay rights and sexual perversion propaganda 8) WWIII will start 9) Freedom will be a thing of the past 10) Everyone will blame God, instead of blaming Satan
Happy new year! Question for you. A lot of your videos (I think all of the ones I've watched) seem to be really hammering how terrible the God of the Bible is based on an understanding of Scripture that honestly no real Christian actually believes. Sure there are millions of people with their own interpretations of things but as far as Christian doctrine as taught by the Church, God is not at all this tyrant demanding love. He doesn't "need" anything. He is a perfect being with 0 needs. This is sound Christian doctrine. “The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, nor is he served by human hands, *as though he needed anything*, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything” (Acts 17:24-25) “I have no need of a bull from your stall or of goats from your pens, for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills. I know every bird in the mountains, and the creatures of the field are mine. If I were hungry I would not tell you, for the world is mine, and all that is in it” (Ps. 50:10-12) “'Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him?’ for from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever! Amen” (Rom. 11:35-36) So when God "requires" love, He doesn't require it and then force us to do it. He is the creator and He is decreeing to His lowly created beings what is "required" of them. What is good and beneficial for "life" as you accurately quoted "This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live" (Deut 30:19). You say this is putting a gun to your head so that's not really a choice. But if the creator of the universe says "I designed you to be a creature that was built to love Me and worship Me, therefore, choose these things and it will be well with you" you still have a choice to go against your "design". But you do so at your own peril. If you lived 5000 years ago and I traveled back in time and presented you with a lamborghini and I said this will allow you to travel quickly over land, but only pour this special liquid (gasoline) from the future into this location right here (gas tank) and it will operate as intended, otherwise bad things will happen and then I leave. Now you decide that you want to pour the gasoline all over the top of the car and place it on your altar to your god and light it on fire as a sacrifice and it explodes did you have a choice to NOT be harmed? Of course, and you chose to do what YOU wanted instead of what I told you because I know better. And you suffer the consequences. The same is true of the relationship between human beings and God. The only difference is, we are both the human AND the car in this situation. God is telling us how to properly operate the human "vehicle". We can choose to listen and obey or we can choose to do whatever we think is best. The traveler doesn't "need" the lamborghini any more than God "needs" human beings. But if the lamborghini is to operate properly then it "needs" gasoline in the gas tank. Human beings "need" to love God and each other and that's just how we were designed. Not doing so is detrimental to our very existence. I think a lot of your content is centered around an erroneous view of humanity's relationship to God. We are the clay and he is the potter, He can do with us as He pleases. This is repeated in both the Old and New Testament Yet you, Lord, are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand. (Isaiah 64:8) Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? (Romans 9:21) So, if we use the entire Bible's message, I think God is also pretty clear on this subject. He reprimands Job as well (Job 38 and 39) for not knowing his "place". If you simply want to say God doesn't exist that is one thing, but I don't think it is fair that just because you can string together some verses from the Old and New Testament that seem to support a "contradictory" view that you dismiss the narrative of the Bible story. There are answers out there for all the slavery stuff, all the supposed contradictions, all the I love you but I also will send you to hell to burn forever etc. There are explanations and they aren't contradictory. Life is complex, life has nuance, mercy and justice are opposite ends of the spectrum. A being that claims to be perfectly merciful and perfectly just I would expect to have complex things going on. I don't expect to be able to fully comprehend a being that has the power to create ex nihilo. Like how do you even explain that? My hope for you my friend is that 2024 brings a lost sheep back to the fold. Your critiques and reasoning and logical thinking are a gift, a gift I pray will one day be used to bring more people into the light of truth that leads to life. Wishing you the best this year.
Imagine a parent who says "love me or I'll lock you in the garden shed...and set it in fire" it really helped me deconvert thinking of him as an actual person
To be completely honest, as a kid being taught that all of the Bible is true, it didn't teach me to think about what was right and wrong, it just taught me to accept whatever this almighty, powerful being said, because he was the highest being on the totem pole, and if you wanted to survive, you'd best do his bidding.
And on top of that, your brothers and sisters are trying to gaslight you by saying that “our parents aren’t actually sending you to the shed. You’re sending yourself.”
Imagine simply commanding that your significant other, children, etc love you, otherwise you will lock them in your torture chamber basement for the entire rest of their lives. Then call yourself the greatest most just perfect unconditional lover of all. Truly disgusting yet laughable.
If you take into account that the Jewish vision of god was as a petty tyrant of a small bronze-are kingdom it makes much more sense. Those royals were getting up to all sorts of horrible things with their own families so of course the "King of Kings" would be even greater in his tyrannical behavior. This sort of flawed deity is fine in a pantheistic religion where you don't expect your gods to be perfect. The problem comes when you try to throw out all the other gods and claim ultimate perfection for your ancient god of tyranny and warfare. Things get even worse when you try to claim that your god of death and justice is not a separate deity and that your goddess of peace and forgiveness is just some sort of nebulous spirit. "The three are one" my fluffy behind. "Mary isn't a goddess and certainly isn't the Holy Spirit"...poppycock! Sorry, I guess I've had a lot of time to think about all this silliness. I like fantasy novels and games so I've seen a lot of carefully crafted religions over the years. When I compare Christianity to those fictional religions it often comes up woefully short.
I remember being very confused as a child about what love is because my emotions would tell me one thing and the Bible would tell me something very different.
Yes… because your emotions are wrong. Not always.. if the Bible made you feel like you didn’t deserve love?? I don’t know why or how. I’m thinking you rejected things like “love your enemies.” Which is exactly what it sounds like. Like.. there’s no conversation for that I don’t know what to tell you. Having grace for those who hurt you is important so you can receive it from others. Or are you perfect and never in need of grace? Have you never felt relief from being treated in a way you didn’t deserve? Do that for others.
@@samherrick5920you made a lot of nothing points and didn’t show him any compassion at all. Just told him he was wrong without any real context. Typical Christian I suppose I’m not surprised.
@@truehzrecords There is nothing typical about me. Just hear what you want to hear so you can say that. I am so tempted to go over this whole conversation I forgot about to prove what a sad straw man that is what you just said, that I “made a bunch of nothing points” but I don’t have time. But remember that I am not typical. I suggest you seek to meet more atypical Christians who are willing to converse the way I am.
@@Equinox2149"Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming?" You fullfilled this prophecy.
I remember an old church hymn from my childhood --"Trust and OBEY, for there's NO other way to be "happy in Jesus", then to trust and OBEY!" The OBEY thing is definitely a biggy !
This is yet another psychological trap used to keep people stuck in Christianity. By God simply declaring there is no fear in love, it puts the responsibility on the believer to not be scared by all of the horrific threats in the Bible.
Thinking of this type of 'love' as a man-made concept genuinely reflects on how a woman and children were to view the husband and father in ancient times. With fear and obedience. And of course punishment was the reward if they strayed from this path.
I agree with your comments about the woman and children. This was at the time of what is called the patriarch arrangement However Christ progressed this teaching and he is spoken of as being head of the congregation and gave his life for us So this is not a dictatorial role But rather we respect what he tells us, about God's will, because we know they both care for us and instruct us wisely His role is to protect us. And that was the role that was assigned to the husband. To guide the family, together with his wife. with the guidance of the creator and Jesus.
If either one of my daughters decided that they didn't want a relationship with me, my first reaction would NOT be to punish her. My immediate reaction would be heartbroken but wishing only the best life for her. My love doesn't stop at what they do, but who they are. And they will always be my children. Apparently my love for my children is greater than God's is for us. To quote Hulk, "Puny god."
Exactly. I don't know any loving parent who would condemn their child to an eternity of suffering for ANY reason. And an eternity of suffering for any kind of finite crime, let alone the "sin" of not loving someone you've never seen or heard or felt, is ridiculous.
Ever read the story of the Prodigal Son? That's exactly what it is about. One thing's for sure, the person who told this parable was NOT a person to threaten people with hell, ever.
@@DoloresLehmann yes, but look how it's framed.. he's irresponsible, ends up destitute and his only safety net is to go back to daddy who should have taught him how to be responsible in the first place. Why'd he give his inheritance early anyway, knowing he'd squander it? He didn't have to. And it's the example of how god can just forgive you on your death bed, no matter how bad of a person you were. It's a convenient story where now the son is forever under his father's thumb. And the older son always was. That's my interpretation.
If someone told me "Love me -- it's a command!" I'd lol, and then think they are crazy. And I used to wonder why on Earth I should "love god more than my mom and dad". It never made any sense to me. Now, as an adult, I understand that no all-loving or all-kind god would need worshiping, along with fear and obedience. it's the demand from a male who feels week, unconfident, and seeks approval. Typically for those ancient times, when men could only imagine "Love" as obedience and fear. Happy new year everyone!
I love God more than my own family because they are no existential without Him. All that is mine is because of Him and He is worthy to be loved especially after He revealed His greatest love for all humanity. Eternal torture is nowhere in scripture so Satan is really deceived many
This completely shreds any argument about how god gave us free will so we could freely love him, more positive reinforcement in my mind:) thanks dude you’re awesome !!
If God is omnipotent and omniscient... free will has no meaning. LIFE HAS NO MEANING He knows what we will do. Everything From birth to death... What's the point of it?
@@WhiteSwarm The randomness of life that still comes to a point where we can communicate through letters via keyboards, to computers, to servers, to everywhere in the world is a testament that reality is far beyond what some old text has to offer. ( Any religion is, I submit, a 'boat anchor' to the advancement of humanity).
@@WhiteSwarm That is exactly how I feel. Well, except for life having no meaning. Here are some lines from the short story "Anthem" by Ayn Rand: "I am. I think. I will. My hands...My spirit...My sky...My forest...This earth of mine...What must I say besides? These are the words. This is the answer. I stand here on the summit of the mountain. I lift my head and I spread my arms. This, my body and spirit, this is the end of the quest. I wished to know the meaning of things. I am the meaning. I wished a warrant for being: I need no warrant for being, and no word of sanction upon my being. I am the warrant and the sanction. It is my eyes which see, and the sight of my eyes grants beauty to the earth. It is my ears which hear, and the hearing of my ears gives its song to the world. It is my mind that thinks, and the judgment of my mind is the only searchlight that can find the truth. It is my will that chooses, and the choice of my will is the only edict I must respect. Many words have been granted me, and some are wise and some are false, but only three are holy: “I will it!” Whatever road I take, the guiding star is within me; the guiding star and the lodestone which point the way. They point but in one direction. The point to me."
When I was a child living in a pretty rough neighborhood, there was a gang leader who tried to force me and my siblings to join his gang or suffer the consequences for not doing so. I absolutely agree, coercion, threats, blackmail, terror, and torture isn't love.
@@Bojan12 Of course it's different but my experience has a lot of parallels to religious dogmas and doctrines. Me being a child is parallel to me being impressionable. My rough neighborhood is parallel to a world full of suffering. The gang leader is parallel to the religious leader. Trying to force me and my siblings to join his gang or suffer the consequences is parallel to religious ideology that attempts to convert groups of people to accept it or suffer the consequences of verbal threats, judgement, and ultimately eternal torture for not joining the religion(Gang). I used my actual experience as an analogy so yes it's different but there are many parallels.
@MrCanis4 Here is a quote from the short story "Anthem" by Ayn Rand: "I owe nothing to my brothers, nor do I gather debts from them. I ask no one to live for me, nor do I live for any others. I covet no man's soul, nor is my soul theirs to covet. I am neither friend nor foe to my brothers, but such as each of them shall deserve of me. And to earn my love, my brothers must do more than to have been born. I do not grant my love without reason, nor to any chance passer-by who may wish to claim it. I honor men with my love. But honor is a thing to be earned." Pretty much what you said. But this was written decades ago.
I haven’t watched your stuff in a couple of weeks. Sometimes the ptsd hits me if I watch too much of this kind of content. I’m really glad you did this video. I hate the defense for god. It’s no different than someone being in abusive relationship. “I do this because I love you.” “Look at all I’ve done for you”. It’s gross, and I’m glad there are people like you to call it out.
I once worked for a woman who told me that her father loved her with all his heart. If she did something wrong, he'd tie her to a tree in the back yard and leave her there overnight. He wouldn't allow her to go wrong. That's how much he loved her.
@@blueStarKitt7924ironically, it’s these kinds of stories that makes me think there’s no god. Any god that has the power to stop it, and doesn’t is a cuck of a god.
For me, the enormous moral problem of a Christian god is that he commands that he be loved above all things. Christians are not surprised that the god, with the characteristics that they attribute to him, orders that he be loved above all things. When I ask why God gives such an order, Christians dodge the answer and argue the reasons why the believer should love him. But they can never explain why God has such a need that not obeying him results in eternal torture.
@rboland2173 In my impression, a believer defends his belief, on which he has built his way of interpreting the world and the rules that he must follow for his survival (he interprets that he is his soul) with tooth and nail. In the same way as if you tried to cut off his hands. If you take that away from him, he wouldn't know how to survive. I suppose all of us defend the core of our interpretation of reality. But some of us are more risky, less afraid of trying to survive in a chaotic and very uncontrollable world. When reality contradicts our most basic and important intuitions, we suffer greatly and are paralyzed. Both believers and atheists. To get inside someone, they must trust us. For a believer, asking him about the core of his interpretation of reality (which has already shown cracks due to dissonance, which he calls a crisis of faith) is completely identical to suffering a physical attack. Religion should not be taught to children. It is something that can only be offered to adults.
There not BOTHERD AT ALL. by YWH TORT CHAMBER The BABY, PREGNANT WOMAN, ANIMLS, INSCETS GENOCIDER COMMANDS to take INNOCENT WOMANA AND CHILDREN EAT FLESH STOONE WOMAN and WOMAN CHILDREN SLAVERY yes ywh, Spawn LOVE
Interesting, I have found that Christians are pretty well hated among most other groups. I have also found that Christians make up the vast majority of donations and non profits globally. Perhaps that is in spite of their beliefs, but this seems like an odd case to make. After all, love is an action too is it not?
There is nothing paradoxical I see in Brandon and his followers love for this channel. And I predict in the new year we`re going to see a rise in subs. And no one will be commanded to or made a threat of fear or punishment. That`s genuine love and a Happy New year to everyone!
This channel is not a perfect one. There are times when some people in the comments catch a mistake on a video, or Brandon needs to iterate something in a different context. But damn, this channel and others in the atheist/skeptic community have been so great. I just hope everyone realizes the impact they’re making to people like you and I who’re working on freeing oneself from the shackles religion can sneak onto us.
Argh, is it next Sunday yet? Damn but this was a good one! This was one of the big questions I had all my life that I got very good at just ignoring. I remember when I finally admitted I was an atheist, asking my wife if she was worried that because I "fell out of love with God" that I could also fall out of love with her, as I have heard some evangelical spouses declare. She wasn't worried, as it turns out, which is good, because, as I said then and say now, the kind of love I have for my wife and kids, the kind of self-sacrificial love that causes me to put their needs ahead of mine and rejoice that they even exist...I NEVER felt that kind of love for Jesus. And felt very guilty about it. But it was entirely because coerced love isn't love.
Personally I think belief in anything is probably a bad idea. It seems to me that belief usually amounts to unthinkingly and often unfeelingly accepting someone else's story about how things are. My aim these days is to have fewer and fewer beliefs; they get in the way of knowledge, and possibly also of truth.
@@Bojan12 I see what my eyes cannot, too -- and I don't see that as something I come to by belief: it's something I open to, experience, and then know. Belief is tricky, because we become so blinded by it. I'm actually doing my best to either dissolve beliefs or hold them very lightly, in the understanding that new experience and knowledge may well make me change my belief.
@@sundayoliver3147 Since I witnessed power of God there is nothing that I do not believe anymore. He opened my eyes completely and shocked me greatly how much I actually did not know. Faith is really something incredible and beyond any understanding that is why it is one of the main keys into God’s Presence
Love for God is not about selflessness but about submission. You must, not only do everything that God wants, but you must love it and do it eagerly. It's meant to totally crush your wants and individually to serve another like in some sort of sick dungeon erotic roleplay.
This is the problem with an "all loving" God. It's clear there's a severe expectation to worship him and the love thing is for the sake of public relations
Happy 2024, Brandon, to you and your family! Another thoughtful, cogent presentation - I wish these sorts of discussions were possible in churches, where people could openly air their doubts and issues with faith instead of being hammered at to ‘believe, believe, believe!’ Your discussion reminded me of Les Miserables, where the convict Jean Valjean, released after 19 years, is invited to stay with the Bishop and given dinner and a place to sleep. He steals silver plates and silverware, and runs away as he’s used to hiding and scrapping for everything . The police bring Valjean back, and the Bishop says that Valjean forgot the candlesticks which were a gift as well - the Bishop does not demand punishment for Valjean, and he makes no demands of him - he freely gives Christianity focuses intensely upon the crucifixion of Jesus as a sacrifice for the sin and evil of humankind - and humans in return, should rightly respond in obedience and love. In Star Trek V: The Final Frontier, James T Kirk asks, “What does God need with a starship?” What does an Eternal, N-dimensional, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent Being need with human love? Shouldn’t humans love God not out of fear or command? Is not God big enough not to require anything of humans?
The fact that it is commanded and comes with threats is why I find it ridiculous when Christians then say that God's love is unconditional. The fact is love is and can never be unconditional. Love for anyone is always based on certain conditions. The problem with God's love and the love of all narcissists and abusers is that it is based on the wrong conditions.
Right! If god love was truly unconditional there would no Hell, maybe an after-death rehab or whatever to prepare you for heaven. But why would god make people in the first place just to love & obey him. What the Hell does the creator of everything even get out of that?
It kinda like Stockholm Syndrome but not exactly. It's more like a narcissistic forced abusive love where you are walking on eggshells in fear of messing up and being punished. But you think it's love because everyone else tells you that it is. Brandon I am all over the place with this response because it is triggering me in a bad way. Thanks for this video. Happy New Years
I feel your pain. Christians love to rescue their beliefs by telling us, "But don't worry! God has forgiven all of your screw ups! No need to walk on eggshells." But for me, I live in agony because in my heart and mind, I KNOW I'm a complete failure to God. How can a child find peace when his father keeps telling him he is a daily disappointment to him? How can a kind, sincere child live a healthy, happy life knowing he is essential worthless garbage in his father's eyes? It is soul crushing. As a struggling Christian, this is the pain I constantly feel. Christians act like I should feel great about God's mercy. Yet, I feel like a complete loser and disappointment. How can this be healthy for a child? And, like you said, this loving father has essentially predetermined that the vast majority of my brothers and sisters I live with will roast with their flesh burning off for eternity. How can anyone find comfort in this religion?? I am trying so, so hard. But man, I'm like you, walking on eggshells. The more I think, the weaker my faith in Christianity.
@@RichRocketMan I have never looked at god as a person on mercy but more like something to constantly fear. I always thought he was looking for ways to punish me. And laughing about it the entire time. I did not attention church out of love it was always out of fear
I had a brother like that growing up. You never knew when he was going to snap. Any little thing would set him off. Saying no to any demand potentially would result in physical assault or broken possessions. (if he didn't just straight up steal them anyway) He even could have potentially killed me on a couple of occasions growing up. One of my friends even admitted she lived in fear for my life on a near daily basis and expected one day to get the call saying he killed me. Even worse, when he was hauled away in a stretcher to a mental institution as a kid, I cried and wrote him a letter saying how much I loved him. I definitely don't love him anymore and since he was sentenced to 60 years in prison, I no longer need to live in fear of him.
Thank you Brandon. I have used your videos as a learning tool and as a defense against those who are STILL trying to reindoctrinate me (although I think that has more to do with all the money I gave to the church over the years). I have been called every name in the book for not conforming to the biblical standard of womanhood (having babies and domestic slavery). You and Kristi Burke released me from the shackles ⛓️⛓️💥 of christianity, and I am forever grateful. I am doing life on my own now (evangelical family and friends are now gone), so I am on a journey of self-discovery and travel to find my atheist tribe. Happy New Year and all the best to you and yours🎉🎉❤!!!
We should talk sometime. My family is deeply religious and they are giving me a little space but waiting on me to come back to the church. I have only walked away 2 months ago. But I have had questions my entire life.
@imjustsayingthough2261 I totally sympathize. Even as a child, many things in the Bible disturbed me when it came to the treatment of women and children, but I was always dismissed by my parents, my pastors, other women, my sunday school teachers, everyone. They all tried to convince me that God loves women, but the Bible itself totally contradicts that. That "God" is a misogynistic psychopath.
I am thrilled to hear you have made it out and happy to have helped in any regard. Thanks for being here and for sharing. Wishing you well on this amazing and terrifying journey out!
Life can be very rough sometimes, but when *YOU* own it, are curious, careful and kind, it is then that one really lives ! Virtual hugs through the internet !! Never stop finding the joy in big things and the smallest. Religion keeps people with wings from flying.
I came from an abusive household and as I got older I learned what toxic relationships were and how abusers/manipulators use various manipulative tactics to keep their victims from reaching out, leaving them, getting help etc. and as someone who was still a self proclaimed Christian at the time, I was honestly horrified at the similarities between these tactics and “relationships” and how we were supposed to “love” god and how he “loved” us. Needless to say, it became an extremely important part of my deconstruction
From childhood I was taught God's love is unconditional (especially when preached by Billy Graham) and yet when I got a bit older I thought "okay, unconditional love with a condition" 12:49 and then there are those denominations that demand the addition of baptism (Adult baptism, mind you, not that heretical infant baptism) AND the addition of the baptism of speaking in tongues to be a "real" Christian...
Let's say someone wants to believe in the Christian God but doesn't get baptized. So if they don't take the magical bath then God will still despise them and send them to hell? I never really thought about what baptism is. I know my parents had me baptized as a baby but I never cared about that.
No, Gods love is definitely conditional. Even after someone is saved, they have to work to keep it. Whereas unconditional love is a gift where the person giving doesn’t expect anything in return. God expects you bear fruit or you will be cut off and thrown into the fire. He’s a psycho
Happy new year, Brandon. The O.T. demand for obedience is tolerable because it's achievable; the N.T. demand for love is incomprehensible, ridiculous, altogether impossible. The new covenant didn't make things better, it made it worse.
I don’t think either was achievable but i hear you overall. It only gets worse and the NT is not the breath of fresh air its claimed to be. And happy new year, friend!
This one hit too hard. I kept nodding my head through out the video because every word Brandon said was a point. God's love has always been conditional, and the first time i noticed this was in the ten commandments read to the israelites by Moses. Almost every commandment ended with "for I am the Lord your god who brought you out of slavery.' Sounded so much like a guardian constantly reminding their adopted children that they helped bring them out of misery or the orphanage.
There's another observation that I find interesting and telling: The first few commandments are quite wordy, and try to justify or explain themselves. Those are the ones that concern God, and specifically establish the power hierarchy with God at the top. The other commandments are very brief and contain no justification or explanation, they are the "social" commandments, i.e. they are about the relationship between people. My conjecture is that the social commandments need no explanation because they were self-evident even then, i.e. the people already knew them. It is indeed hard to imagine that people who had been living in Egypt, in the most advanced civilization of the time, could have been unaware that murder or theft is bad! The long commandments, however, are not self evident. They establish something new, the absolute dominance of a single God who cannot be questioned and must be obeyed. Hence the explanations and justifications. Putting those two types of commandments together into a single package is a cunning trick to make them appear inseparable. Even though the social commandments are undoubtedly much older than the God of the Israelites, it now looks as if all the commandments came from him as a coherent package. The trick works to this day, as we can see. Christians still believe that the ten commandments are from God, and that they are the foundation for all morals.
I think I was born atheist. Or at least with the inclination. My family was Christian and I remember my first theological WTF moment. I'd learned that I was supposed to love God above all things. I wasn't even in grade school yet, but I had questions. I asked my mother if I had to love God more than her and my dad and she said, yes, I did. This worried me for a long time. My family was my world, but I'd never even seen God.
Thinking is the enemy of religion. Even being raised in a pretty heavily Christian family, I never felt anything for religion. It was boring and an obligation. Then in the 5th grade I decided I wanted none of it because I couldn't shake the feeling Christianity and Christians didn't like girls.
There are studies that indicate that there is likely a biological component to spiritual faith. It can be temporarily induced by stimulating certain regions of the brain and religiosity seems to have a genetic component.
@@Hitoshura844 I don't see how it can be a genetic component when newer generations are less religious than the previous. Religion is only about filling gaps in human knowledge and controlling people. Usually the more critical thinking and logic you possess, the less likely you are to be religious or eventually stop being religious. Mentally unstable people who don't think too much cling to religion.
To be spammed at the podium with 'agape love', and the confidence upon saying such throughout my teenage years while in church, and how it's comically presented now is just great. Thanks, Brandon. Way to further build on the potential of atheism. 👍 See everyone in 2024.
Can love be genuine if you're forced to do it at gunpoint? I was a Christian for over 20 years. I thought that I loved God, but looking back the big smile on my face was just hiding the terror that I felt inside of me. I sacrificed every part of my life to God as he commanded and then I would brag to unbelievers about the freedom I had in Jesus.
sorry You were allowed to carry on apathy, our hearts have some growing to do even after accepting christ and if our apathy isn't addressed it can come out as pride and work based salvation when our purpose with christ is to gain empath.
@@icoleman007 I appreciate your take on me, but trust me, you don't know my story at all. It's a long one and far more complicated than just not having the right attitude or enough faith. Christians love to think that if someone stops believing in God then they must have been doing it wrong.
@@aheartonfire7191 Okay. But that's a C.S. Lewis style argument. You're basically saying that you believe that God exists because it would be kind of depressing if he didn't exist.
You are probably sick of me fanboying over you by now, but once again you are hitting the nail on the head! also you are speaking all the doubts and thoughts that where deemed evil that I have had for years! pleas dont ever stop preaching the real truth! Thanks to you I now proudly say I am an atheist! thank you so much, you have done more for me in a month than Christianity have done in years (oh, have I really been trapped in this for years?). hope you have had a good well earned rest this Christmas and I hope the new year gives you all that you want and need :D
If God commands people to love, and sincere love is necessary, why are there sociopaths who can't process or form meaningful attachments to other individuals? If someone's brain is just wired in such a manner that they CAN'T express or feel what other people call "love," how can they love God with all their heart/mind/strength even if they want to? Also, if God's love is merely analogous to the human concept of "love," which kind of love is God commanding us to have? If God doesn't love the way we humans love, then it seems like we can't love God the way God would love God. EDIT: Also, if obedience is the way love is shown, God can't love us, because God doesn't and cannot obey us.
If God truly loved someone, they wouldn't force, threaten, or command anyone to love him or her or it. He would allow them to go their own way in this life and when they were ready they would allow them to die or rest instead of suspending their soul or whatever being endures after our death in perpetual torment for a period of time that is unfathomable and torment them in ways they couldn't even conceive in their worst lucid nightmares or night terrors. Thank you so much for the logic and reason you brought to this research where it would be shunned and feared in the church even persecuted.
A better concept (which maybe didn't exist at that time) would be empathy. Understand that others are like you. Understand that they have the flaws and bad judgment just like you do. Just like love, empathy is the opposite of hate but different and more nuanced.
Love you Brandon. These presentations make the huge and blatant plot holes in that ancient text so obvious, it is amazing. To be able to steelman the ideas and then point out the inconsistencies the way you do is truly artful. Hopefully it helps the hard of thinking to be less sucked in by smooth talkin' preachers and gets them to be much more discerning about reality. Please continue this service to humanity. Far too much time is taken up being distracted by religion, which could be used to support public service, prevent wars by engaging with other, help prevent diseases through good practices and avoid poverty by voting for people who have been researched to be honorable, knowledgeable people. Amen.
Bang on once again! Love cannot be forced or demanded. You make it so perfectly clear. I hope you can feel the 'love' we are all throwing your way. Happy New Year!
Again, wow! A great analysis. You said it all…this god’s ‘love’ is not Love at all. It’s an imbalance of power…abusive at its core, direct from the bloody Bronze Age of emperors and kings. We do not need any more ‘kings’. Thanks for your overwhelming body of insightful work!
I turned on notifications for you for these very topics. You bring items up that I would have never thought of and have been paramount in my questioning of whether I actually believe in this God. I was a campus minister with a local church for 2 years and decided to quit because I started heavily questioning God when I started asking questions on how to reach Gen Z which is arguably one of the more irreligious generations we've seen at least within the west (probably thanks to the internet). Just wanted to thank you for helping in the process.
Gen Z is a very skeptical generation. That is both a blessing and a curse 🙂 Freedom from religion allows for much greater (albeit harder) opportunities to make the world a better place. Teach discernment, encourage curiosity, be an example of kindness, for that we will all be grateful !! (That witnessing sh-t is just annoying at best and extremely disappointing at worse... proclaiming not to behave like a complete destructive jerk is admirable...but - "because of jesus (not his real name)" is simply admitting a lack of self awareness.
I'm sorry you had to go through such a hard time to find your own religious position. Still, I hope you can look back and feel that you did some good as a councilor even if you weren't successful as a missionary. If you ever want to get back into something similar without the religious baggage, I've heard that Hospices are always looking for grief councilors. If you want to minister to those in need without the proselytizing that might be a good fit for you.
As always, you have given me a lot to think about. I am going to share this video and summarize its main points on Facebook because I feel my Christian friends will at least read my comments on the video, even if they won't watch the video.
"We don't hate the sinner," they say. "We hate the sin." lol....yeah, then why are you such douchebags? Only a Christian (like WLC) can say with a straight face that genociding babies is good for them, and a loving act. "They go straight to heaven!"
When I was a child I was told that God loves us and we go to heaven when we die if we are good instead of remaining dead. That seemed fair to me. One day in church I learned about the other option. My love for God totally disappeared and I have not been able to separate him from Satan ever since. Your video was on point. There is nothing that can force me to love anyone that wants to force me to love them. I can't even pretend like most Christians are doing.
But Jesus died for me on that cross so that I don’t go there and He will forgive me of my past and heal me and if I would end up in Hell, it would be because I did bad things and I have. God is also Holy and will judge the world. Our justice system and judges in today’s world are corrupt and I’m so glad Jesus will judge each and everyone of us. We need it.
Great video! I remember having some of this discussion with my mother, and her comeback was that God commands us to love because WE need it, not him. Still, I only found this convincing for a short time because if God made us with that need, it still says something about his wants or desires.
As always Brandon, great points and discussion. I love that you bring up these very valid concerns with religious texts and beliefs. The xenophobic, conditional and threatening love is not the way. But it’s great that you always present these contrasts to bring home important concepts like real love without all of the ugly religious distortions. Keep up the good work!
Happy New Year Brandon!!! I appreciate all your work and dedication and wish you a productive and pleasant 2024 for you and all your family. Always take care and keep showing the true love that is earned and not commanded over threats of fire and torment
I love that your name is Brandon. Same as my brothers. He just had twin boys and every reminder of him, my SIL, or the twins makes me feel true warmth and love. God I want to hold them. They were premature so I have to wait till February. Thats real love. If they don't love me, I would love them just the same.
"God says, 'You MUST love me', which is to say that you are required to do that which would only be acceptable if done voluntarily." The philosopher Alan Watts said that, and the guy had even been an Anglican minister for a while, but he realized that Christianity just wasn't the way to go for him. He found the Eastern religions much more coherent, and especially in the case of Buddhism, which CAN be Atheistic, depending on how you practice it.
@@MindShift-Brandon, he had a very interesting life, but the weird thing about him was his death, actually. He was sick and he knew it, from what I understand, so he went off to his country house to live alone with his son Mark, who he called in to live with him specifically for when he died. He actually had Mark cremate and scatter his body along his estate literally so that people couldn't build some kind of shrine to him, which is CREEPY, but that's how famous he was. And the whole cremation and scattering bit went down less than a day after he died. He just wanted the job done quickly and secretly by the sounds of it. I don't know how true any of this is, by the way, but, again, so famous that people tell stories about him. I've heard his daughter Anne talk about this: how she hated being called "Alan Watts' daughter" rather than just Anne, you know?
It's becoming more and more apparent to me that God was invented by narcissists wanting to be given unconditional love and loyalty and unchallenged, unquestioned power by everyone they met as God's "chosen" prophet or divine leader.
It's amazing how deeply the indoctrination goes. Not until I hear you say it the way you do did I even start to question what's wrong with being commanded to love God! But you're right. If God is love, there's no need for the command.
Well, after all I have learned from you: Commanding to be loved is gods only chance to get some. There is none to be expected on the basis of his track record. 🤣 Thank you for all you do and Happy New Year to you Brandon.
@@Bojan12Two things: 1. Ted Bundy had many fans, just like many criminals. He was kind of a hero for then, for some, God. 2. If God really saved you from something, how are you required to love him? He created the troubles you are in the first place. He is just a powerful psycho, with whom no one would want to have a relationship
Forgot to say my previous comment: congratulations on your well-deserved success with your channel in 2023. Can't wait to see how it grows with a full year in 2024!
If you demand love, you don't deserve it. Anyone that doesn't understand that, doesn't understand what love is. Also, based on the biblical definitions, god doesn't love anyone.
@@Bojan12 I'm not. I understand what love is, unlike the made up christian god. If you believe in the christian god then you're the stupid one. That thing is the most horrible being ever made up by people.
I love IT! Ha! Brandon, you keep knocking them out of the park. Many years ago RUclipsr, "Non-Stamp collector" did a series on free will that point out the same as you with a touch of humor. Your work is really good, clean, clear and to the point.
This has me thinking of when I used to keep pet rats, over the course of several years. As a rule, domesticated rats are sociable and affectionate, and I enjoyed building relationships with them, even the ones that where more shy. (think dogs, but potato-sized and with little hands). There was one exception in a female (who was older, had been alone in the petstore, and had wheel-tail, so no knowing what sort of background she'd had) who was outright mean. I had to be very careful reaching in the cage for anything and always keep track of where she was, since she liked to lunge and bite if you got too close. If I took the rats out for playtime, I had to be sure I had good footwear one or just keep a close eye out, because she'd nip my toes. She didn't love me, she didn't like or trust me at all. This didn't affect the fact that I was responsible for her well-being, and the thought of punishing her for it would seem ridiculous, not in spite of but *because* of the huge power imbalance between us. Similarly, if you kept an ant farm, what difference does it make whether the ants believed in you or not? Could you really be bothered to suss out the good, believing ants from the 'bad' nonbelievers? Devise a punishment/reward system for them? It would be unbelievably pathetic.
Excellent point! To expand on the ant analogy: Christians also often say that as he's the creator, you must be submissive because he's so much more powerful. Well, the ant mother (queen) isn't powerful at all! All ants in the colony descend from her, so in a sense she's their creator, but she is totally dependent on them and has no power to discipline or even crush them. The notion of "you have to obey your creator" is bullshit.
I love your videos. I recently deconverted and you have a way of explaining things that really gets through to me. Thanks for the hard work, I sincerely appreciate it!
It hurts me that I know my parents will always place their faith above any relationship with me. Their "Great Commission" demands they step on my boundaries no matter what I say. This is why fundamentalists are always going to be difficult to be around. They won't stop because their Sky Daddy comes first.
My first relationship was with someone with undiagnosed BPD. The love I received was very conditional based on how he was feeling or if I did certain things for him. When I couldn't take it and would say I'd like to leave, he would threaten self harm or self-exit from this plane. I didn't want to cause him any pain and I couldn't see any way out despite my friends and family begging me to leave him. I would sob in my car begging God to get me out of the relationship, one way or another. I had stopped going to church because of him and in a way, started deconstruction as well. Too much of the behavior in the "Great Book" was mirrored in front of me. I had dedicated my life to God, feeling that maybe someone would love me if I imagined it. Learning to love myself has been a more satisfying journey. Thank you for these videos, Brandon. You help keep the voice of my mother out of my head.
Hi Brandon, really appreciate your videos as I am also going through deconstruction, although private and hard to accept sometimes. Thank you for making relevant, thought-provoking content!
My very religious mother would say, when I was growing up, that love is unconditional. In the next breath she'd threaten me with disownment when I did or said something she didn't like. The message I got: love is conditional based on obedience. Reading their bible is one way of not believing, experiencing how its followers interpret it to justify their behavior, is another.
God loves you. God loves you so much that he created the world just for you, and all that he demands is that you love him back, no matter what he does, or he'll send you to hell to suffer in torment forever. God loves you.
@@MindShift-Brandon dude. Ever since your appearance on “the line”. I instantly subbed and watch your content. I like your conversation style. Keep up the great work!
Thank you for your commentary! I actually went out and bought a Bible today. I've been an atheist for about 20 years now (I feel so old!). I didn't stop believing because of any logical argument, but more so because I felt like that connection was becoming hollower as time went on, to the point that it's like a kid growing up and realizing Santa doesn't exist. I spent a few years grieving that loss of faith. But getting into the atheist world back in the early 2000s was eye-opening as it helped me not only deconstruct Christianity as a whole, but the thought-process behind the concept of a deity and the afterlife. There are long bouts of time where I won't put much thought into being an atheist, but occasionally I will get back into consuming atheist/skeptics content. Your work has been really eye-opening! Despite going to K-12 Catholic schools, I've never actually read the Bible. My religious education was more about pulling out topical passages or hearing it read aloud in church. There are several stories that you have shared from the Bible that I had never heard before or had been contextualized very differently from how I grew up. Because of this, I want to spend time this year reading through the Bible, so I can interpret it for myself and have a better ground to stand on when talking to the religious believers in my life. Thank you for the hard work you do in bringing these subjects to life and creating an opportunity for people to chat about these ideas. Happy New Years!
Comically in reference to new v old testament consistency, I love that the books of enoch aren’t connonically recognized in christian books, yet Christ references him.
Very instructive, very persuasive. But I can say that Theology when it becomes at odds with itself, as in the examples you teach, it gets put on the shelf and is way secondary to the community that church brings. Community is in the forefront, singing, eating, networking is the more compelling reasons to belong. Very good vid.
You have again hit this one right out of the park, and the discussion is getting very close to the central core issue in Christianity. I agree completely with everything you have said, with one stipulation at the beginning of the material: When I desperately became a Christian in 1973 I was a person who was unable to love others selflessly, my upbringing had groomed me to be forced to always look out for myself and my interests first and only to a few others around me if it suited my needs. I found the Bible's blunt and stark and simple command to love God and others the exact thing I needed to begin breaking out of my tomb of lovelessness, the simple plain unadorned command of God to love others was the exact 'baby-step' beginning that I needed to begin practicing the expanding lifestyle and character habit of love; I especially liked the part of it that said that I was to do acts of love towards others EVEN WHEN I DID NOT HAVE THE FEELINGS FOR IT; it was this blunt and clear instruction of love from the God of the Bible that finally got the ball rolling in my personality for the first time in my life and I was extremely grateful. However, decades later I have come to see the downside and abuse of this as you point out here, that God oftentimes does want us to love primarily for HIS benefit and not for ours and it easily becomes oppressive and regimented against us. I can hardly wait for your follow-up message next Sunday, it's going to be even better than this one.
When your love for a deity is rewarded by being stricken with stomach cancer and dying one week after graduating from high school, the threat of punishment for not loving said deity means nothing.
Interesting timing on this topic. Just a couple weeks ago I had a discussion with my Dad about choosing to love versus spontaneous love, romantically speaking. I say it’s mostly spontaneous (pheromones and all that); he says it’s a choice (more brain driven). Never understood how people could say they love God/Jesus. How do you love someone you don’t actually know? I could appreciate the supposed sacrifice (although He could just say I was forgiven for my “sins”) but love? Just couldn’t do it. I tried really hard but, I need a physical being to muster up actual love! Am I too literal? And wouldn’t God rather we WANT to love Him than HAVE to love Him? That would always be my preference! Thanks for the thought provoking discussion!
Thanks for the comment! As someone who really thought i had a relationship with god, love made sense to me. But it was so obviously imaginary and constructed looking back. Unrequited to the full extent if the word.
@@emro164 Like you, I have been studying world religions (especially near-east religions) for a few years. Really seems the Bible is a mashup of the Atra Hasis, Epic of Gilgamesh, the works of Homer, the Enuma Elish, Osiris and many other mythologies. The idea man has a soul was primarily Plato’s hypothesis, it is most likely just the human brain. With hundreds of virgin births, savior gods, resurrections, etc. the entire idea any of it is real seems ridiculous. I appreciate your attempt to explain how one could love Jesus but, believing he taught about love (only half the time) still doesn’t provide an interactive relationship to enable one to love him. One could love the idea of him but, that isn’t knowing Jesus the person, only about Jesus. Not the same at all. I need feedback, dependability, kindness, compassion, etc. An invisible entity cannot do those things. Too remote, silent and untouchable.
8:14 *Garth Ennis'* _Preacher_ is a comic that takes God to be exactly that. God in that fiction was so empty inside and so desperate for validation, that that is _exactly_ the kind of love He wanted. I have got to get that comic.
This video makes it sound like God manipulates people into loving him, kind of like in a manipulative relationship. Especially when you mention how he says he loves you unconditionally, but if you don't love him back then he will send you to eternal torment, but it is your fault being sent there because you chose it. This sounds eerily similar to a woman that's stuck in an abusive relationship with a manipulative man, and my first instinct is to tell the woman that she needs to leave because this is very bad for her. That she deserves so much better than an abuser like him. It takes years for a person to get over a manipulative relationship like that. The whole, "why do you make me beat you? Why couldn't you have just loved me? It's all your fault." Is very manipulative.
The only difference is imagine a world where everyone is against the abused wife, and keeps telling her to stay with the abusive man because he's actually not abusive. (Despite everyone being aware of what's going on, but imagine people somehow still deny it's abuse) Every time she tries to run away, they tell her she needs to stay with and obey him, imagine if everyone said it's her fault if he punishes her. And he's gracious enough to give her freewill by making her choose between getting set on fire in his basement or loving him forever.
@@F100-b7i These analogies are really helpful! I've also been told recently by loved ones that my pride is on par with Satan because I have rejected Jesus' love.
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Back from my break and excited for 2024. Happy New Year, all!
This video is a great illustration of the difference between the god Christians claim to believe in and the one they believe they are communicating with and will meet.
Happy New Year!...and may the next bring us all MUCH better tidings...
Welcome back! Hope your break was refreshingly relaxing 😊
Don't get too excited. These are the things that will happen in 2024:
1) Trump is assassinated and the Civil War starts
2) The economic crash
3) More illegal immigration to white Christian countries
4) The right to vote is abolished
5) Atheists will become even more ridiculous
6) The price of food and petrol will reach absurdity
7) More gay rights and sexual perversion propaganda
8) WWIII will start
9) Freedom will be a thing of the past
10) Everyone will blame God, instead of blaming Satan
Happy new year! Question for you. A lot of your videos (I think all of the ones I've watched) seem to be really hammering how terrible the God of the Bible is based on an understanding of Scripture that honestly no real Christian actually believes. Sure there are millions of people with their own interpretations of things but as far as Christian doctrine as taught by the Church, God is not at all this tyrant demanding love. He doesn't "need" anything. He is a perfect being with 0 needs. This is sound Christian doctrine.
“The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, nor is he served by human hands, *as though he needed anything*, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything” (Acts 17:24-25)
“I have no need of a bull from your stall or of goats from your pens, for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills. I know every bird in the mountains, and the creatures of the field are mine. If I were hungry I would not tell you, for the world is mine, and all that is in it” (Ps. 50:10-12)
“'Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him?’ for from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever! Amen” (Rom. 11:35-36)
So when God "requires" love, He doesn't require it and then force us to do it. He is the creator and He is decreeing to His lowly created beings what is "required" of them. What is good and beneficial for "life" as you accurately quoted
"This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live" (Deut 30:19).
You say this is putting a gun to your head so that's not really a choice. But if the creator of the universe says "I designed you to be a creature that was built to love Me and worship Me, therefore, choose these things and it will be well with you" you still have a choice to go against your "design". But you do so at your own peril. If you lived 5000 years ago and I traveled back in time and presented you with a lamborghini and I said this will allow you to travel quickly over land, but only pour this special liquid (gasoline) from the future into this location right here (gas tank) and it will operate as intended, otherwise bad things will happen and then I leave. Now you decide that you want to pour the gasoline all over the top of the car and place it on your altar to your god and light it on fire as a sacrifice and it explodes did you have a choice to NOT be harmed? Of course, and you chose to do what YOU wanted instead of what I told you because I know better. And you suffer the consequences.
The same is true of the relationship between human beings and God. The only difference is, we are both the human AND the car in this situation. God is telling us how to properly operate the human "vehicle". We can choose to listen and obey or we can choose to do whatever we think is best. The traveler doesn't "need" the lamborghini any more than God "needs" human beings. But if the lamborghini is to operate properly then it "needs" gasoline in the gas tank. Human beings "need" to love God and each other and that's just how we were designed. Not doing so is detrimental to our very existence.
I think a lot of your content is centered around an erroneous view of humanity's relationship to God. We are the clay and he is the potter, He can do with us as He pleases. This is repeated in both the Old and New Testament
Yet you, Lord, are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand. (Isaiah 64:8)
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? (Romans 9:21)
So, if we use the entire Bible's message, I think God is also pretty clear on this subject. He reprimands Job as well (Job 38 and 39) for not knowing his "place".
If you simply want to say God doesn't exist that is one thing, but I don't think it is fair that just because you can string together some verses from the Old and New Testament that seem to support a "contradictory" view that you dismiss the narrative of the Bible story. There are answers out there for all the slavery stuff, all the supposed contradictions, all the I love you but I also will send you to hell to burn forever etc. There are explanations and they aren't contradictory. Life is complex, life has nuance, mercy and justice are opposite ends of the spectrum. A being that claims to be perfectly merciful and perfectly just I would expect to have complex things going on. I don't expect to be able to fully comprehend a being that has the power to create ex nihilo. Like how do you even explain that? My hope for you my friend is that 2024 brings a lost sheep back to the fold. Your critiques and reasoning and logical thinking are a gift, a gift I pray will one day be used to bring more people into the light of truth that leads to life. Wishing you the best this year.
Imagine a parent who says "love me or I'll lock you in the garden shed...and set it in fire" it really helped me deconvert thinking of him as an actual person
The apologetics against this are terrible but the fact they even try is pretty horrific.
Right?!
To be completely honest, as a kid being taught that all of the Bible is true, it didn't teach me to think about what was right and wrong, it just taught me to accept whatever this almighty, powerful being said, because he was the highest being on the totem pole, and if you wanted to survive, you'd best do his bidding.
Exactly right.
And on top of that, your brothers and sisters are trying to gaslight you by saying that “our parents aren’t actually sending you to the shed. You’re sending yourself.”
Imagine simply commanding that your significant other, children, etc love you, otherwise you will lock them in your torture chamber basement for the entire rest of their lives. Then call yourself the greatest most just perfect unconditional lover of all. Truly disgusting yet laughable.
It really is so obvious and simple. I cant believe it ever took me so long to see clearly.
That's narcissism at its finest. Lol.
I had an ex with that attitude. He ended up in prison.
Yet overly simplistic. I bet every Christian you tried this on didn’t buy it.
If you take into account that the Jewish vision of god was as a petty tyrant of a small bronze-are kingdom it makes much more sense. Those royals were getting up to all sorts of horrible things with their own families so of course the "King of Kings" would be even greater in his tyrannical behavior.
This sort of flawed deity is fine in a pantheistic religion where you don't expect your gods to be perfect. The problem comes when you try to throw out all the other gods and claim ultimate perfection for your ancient god of tyranny and warfare.
Things get even worse when you try to claim that your god of death and justice is not a separate deity and that your goddess of peace and forgiveness is just some sort of nebulous spirit. "The three are one" my fluffy behind. "Mary isn't a goddess and certainly isn't the Holy Spirit"...poppycock!
Sorry, I guess I've had a lot of time to think about all this silliness. I like fantasy novels and games so I've seen a lot of carefully crafted religions over the years. When I compare Christianity to those fictional religions it often comes up woefully short.
I remember being very confused as a child about what love is because my emotions would tell me one thing and the Bible would tell me something very different.
For sure!
Yes… because your emotions are wrong. Not always.. if the Bible made you feel like you didn’t deserve love?? I don’t know why or how. I’m thinking you rejected things like “love your enemies.” Which is exactly what it sounds like. Like.. there’s no conversation for that I don’t know what to tell you. Having grace for those who hurt you is important so you can receive it from others. Or are you perfect and never in need of grace? Have you never felt relief from being treated in a way you didn’t deserve? Do that for others.
@@samherrick5920you made a lot of nothing points and didn’t show him any compassion at all. Just told him he was wrong without any real context. Typical Christian I suppose I’m not surprised.
@@truehzrecords There is nothing typical about me. Just hear what you want to hear so you can say that. I am so tempted to go over this whole conversation I forgot about to prove what a sad straw man that is what you just said, that I “made a bunch of nothing points” but I don’t have time. But remember that I am not typical. I suggest you seek to meet more atypical Christians who are willing to converse the way I am.
@samherrick5920
My guy just assumed what had the child confused lmao
Did you watch the video at all?😭
The command to conjure love for an absent 'father' is a strong candidate for Christianity's worst feature.
Yupp. Love the abuser or be punished for eternity. Also the abuser will only truly show themselves after the fact.
Exactly
Agreed!
Didn't come back with the milk for the past 2000 years.
@@Equinox2149"Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming?"
You fullfilled this prophecy.
Another mic drop video. "A gun to the head is never a free choice." Excellent. Thank you.
Appreciate that! Thanks for being here.
I remember an old church hymn from my childhood --"Trust and OBEY, for there's NO other way to be "happy in Jesus", then to trust and OBEY!" The OBEY thing is definitely a biggy !
"There is no fear in love" = Behave and there's nothing you need worry about. Misbehave and you're gonna have reason to fear.
Yes. A bit different spin than how it usually gets sold.
This is yet another psychological trap used to keep people stuck in Christianity. By God simply declaring there is no fear in love, it puts the responsibility on the believer to not be scared by all of the horrific threats in the Bible.
Thinking of this type of 'love' as a man-made concept genuinely reflects on how a woman and children were to view the husband and father in ancient times. With fear and obedience. And of course punishment was the reward if they strayed from this path.
Exactly! Just par for the course of this time period. Not divine by any stretch of the imagination
Ancient times? Loads of men still enforce this BS
Afghanistan today.
I agree with your comments about the woman and children.
This was at the time of what is called the patriarch arrangement
However Christ progressed this teaching and he is spoken of as being head of the congregation and gave his life for us
So this is not a dictatorial role
But rather we respect what he tells us, about God's will, because we know they both care for us and instruct us wisely
His role is to protect us.
And that was the role that was assigned to the husband.
To guide the family, together with his wife.
with the guidance of the creator and Jesus.
@@MindShift-Brandon That's why we needed
Jesus
To reinstate God's standards.
To put humans on the right road.
If either one of my daughters decided that they didn't want a relationship with me, my first reaction would NOT be to punish her. My immediate reaction would be heartbroken but wishing only the best life for her. My love doesn't stop at what they do, but who they are. And they will always be my children. Apparently my love for my children is greater than God's is for us. To quote Hulk, "Puny god."
Yes!!!
Exactly. I don't know any loving parent who would condemn their child to an eternity of suffering for ANY reason. And an eternity of suffering for any kind of finite crime, let alone the "sin" of not loving someone you've never seen or heard or felt, is ridiculous.
Ever read the story of the Prodigal Son? That's exactly what it is about. One thing's for sure, the person who told this parable was NOT a person to threaten people with hell, ever.
Well, I think God would have that drink now.
@@DoloresLehmann yes, but look how it's framed.. he's irresponsible, ends up destitute and his only safety net is to go back to daddy who should have taught him how to be responsible in the first place. Why'd he give his inheritance early anyway, knowing he'd squander it? He didn't have to. And it's the example of how god can just forgive you on your death bed, no matter how bad of a person you were. It's a convenient story where now the son is forever under his father's thumb. And the older son always was. That's my interpretation.
If someone told me "Love me -- it's a command!" I'd lol, and then think they are crazy. And I used to wonder why on Earth I should "love god more than my mom and dad". It never made any sense to me. Now, as an adult, I understand that no all-loving or all-kind god would need worshiping, along with fear and obedience. it's the demand from a male who feels week, unconfident, and seeks approval. Typically for those ancient times, when men could only imagine "Love" as obedience and fear.
Happy new year everyone!
Yep! It was written by weak insecure racist men for weak insecure racist men to enslave women and other races to boost their fragile ego.
I love God more than my own family because they are no existential without Him. All that is mine is because of Him and He is worthy to be loved especially after He revealed His greatest love for all humanity. Eternal torture is nowhere in scripture so Satan is really deceived many
@@Bojan12 good for you. And I'm happy my love for my dearest ones is the strongest feeling I'm capable of.
@@Viky.A.V. My was too like that. But not anymore
@@Bojan12 So....if you heard a voice in your head saying it was God and he ordered you to murder your family, you'd do it without a second thought?
This completely shreds any argument about how god gave us free will so we could freely love him, more positive reinforcement in my mind:) thanks dude you’re awesome !!
My absolute pleasure. Thanks for the kind words back!
If God is omnipotent and omniscient... free will has no meaning.
LIFE HAS NO MEANING
He knows what we will do. Everything
From birth to death...
What's the point of it?
@@WhiteSwarm The randomness of life that still comes to a point where we can communicate through letters via keyboards, to computers, to servers, to everywhere in the world is a testament that reality is far beyond what some old text has to offer. ( Any religion is, I submit, a 'boat anchor' to the advancement of humanity).
@@WhiteSwarm life is what you make it, have fun and see what you can accomplish, I honestly don’t believe god is up there and is any of the omnis
@@WhiteSwarm That is exactly how I feel. Well, except for life having no meaning. Here are some lines from the short story "Anthem" by Ayn Rand: "I am. I think. I will.
My hands...My spirit...My sky...My forest...This earth of mine...What must I say besides? These are the words. This is the answer.
I stand here on the summit of the mountain. I lift my head and I spread my arms. This, my body and spirit, this is the end of the quest. I wished to know the meaning of things. I am the meaning. I wished a warrant for being: I need no warrant for being, and no word of sanction upon my being. I am the warrant and the sanction.
It is my eyes which see, and the sight of my eyes grants beauty to the earth. It is my ears which hear, and the hearing of my ears gives its song to the world. It is my mind that thinks, and the judgment of my mind is the only searchlight that can find the truth. It is my will that chooses, and the choice of my will is the only edict I must respect. Many words have been granted me, and some are wise and some are false, but only three are holy: “I will it!”
Whatever road I take, the guiding star is within me; the guiding star and the lodestone which point the way. They point but in one direction. The point to me."
When I was a child living in a pretty rough neighborhood, there was a gang leader who tried to force me and my siblings to join his gang or suffer the consequences for not doing so. I absolutely agree, coercion, threats, blackmail, terror, and torture isn't love.
That is completely different
@@Bojan12 Of course it's different but my experience has a lot of parallels to religious dogmas and doctrines. Me being a child is parallel to me being impressionable. My rough neighborhood is parallel to a world full of suffering. The gang leader is parallel to the religious leader. Trying to force me and my siblings to join his gang or suffer the consequences is parallel to religious ideology that attempts to convert groups of people to accept it or suffer the consequences of verbal threats, judgement, and ultimately eternal torture for not joining the religion(Gang). I used my actual experience as an analogy so yes it's different but there are many parallels.
@@Bojan12 are you trying to justify the gang leaders actions
God def acts like a gang leader.
@@resaucefull444No because he is not God and he does not love her and he does not own her while God does
Brilliant. Former Mormon missionary here, I absolutely LOVE your videos. This one in particular.
Thanks so much, Mike! Appreciate that
I thought the Mormon God was a bit nicer. Extra chance after death, levels of heaven. Do you still see the Mormon God as evil?
@@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr Where did you pull "evil" out of what he said?
@@mindoablues Well the biblical God IS evil. I'm just wondering if this ex-Mormon sees the nicer version as also evil.
@@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr I gotcha! I misinterpreted the tone, so I apologize
You cannot force Love. You can only earn Love.
100%!
@MrCanis4 Here is a quote from the short story "Anthem" by Ayn Rand: "I owe nothing to my brothers, nor do I gather debts from them. I ask no one to live for me, nor do I live for any others. I covet no man's soul, nor is my soul theirs to covet. I am neither friend nor foe to my brothers, but such as each of them shall deserve of me. And to earn my love, my brothers must do more than to have been born. I do not grant my love without reason, nor to any chance passer-by who may wish to claim it. I honor men with my love. But honor is a thing to be earned." Pretty much what you said. But this was written decades ago.
Amen!!❤
Exactly
And Jesus is worthy of it. What He did is incredible and mind blowing and deserves every bit of love
I haven’t watched your stuff in a couple of weeks. Sometimes the ptsd hits me if I watch too much of this kind of content.
I’m really glad you did this video. I hate the defense for god. It’s no different than someone being in abusive relationship. “I do this because I love you.” “Look at all I’ve done for you”. It’s gross, and I’m glad there are people like you to call it out.
Totally understand! And thank you!
I once worked for a woman who told me that her father loved her with all his heart. If she did something wrong, he'd tie her to a tree in the back yard and leave her there overnight. He wouldn't allow her to go wrong. That's how much he loved her.
@@pixel9548 Jesus fucking Christ! I hope that isn’t real.
@optimus_rhymes6955 Unfortunately, it really can be real. I've heard stories like that.😰😰🤮😞
@@blueStarKitt7924ironically, it’s these kinds of stories that makes me think there’s no god. Any god that has the power to stop it, and doesn’t is a cuck of a god.
For me, the enormous moral problem of a Christian god is that he commands that he be loved above all things. Christians are not surprised that the god, with the characteristics that they attribute to him, orders that he be loved above all things. When I ask why God gives such an order, Christians dodge the answer and argue the reasons why the believer should love him. But they can never explain why God has such a need that not obeying him results in eternal torture.
100%!
@rboland2173 In my impression, a believer defends his belief, on which he has built his way of interpreting the world and the rules that he must follow for his survival (he interprets that he is his soul) with tooth and nail. In the same way as if you tried to cut off his hands. If you take that away from him, he wouldn't know how to survive.
I suppose all of us defend the core of our interpretation of reality. But some of us are more risky, less afraid of trying to survive in a chaotic and very uncontrollable world.
When reality contradicts our most basic and important intuitions, we suffer greatly and are paralyzed. Both believers and atheists.
To get inside someone, they must trust us. For a believer, asking him about the core of his interpretation of reality (which has already shown cracks due to dissonance, which he calls a crisis of faith) is completely identical to suffering a physical attack.
Religion should not be taught to children. It is something that can only be offered to adults.
There's no hatred like "Christian love"
Yes sir.
Sooo many examples of the hate as a consequence of 'christian love' it would fill up the internet.
Is that what Christian parents tell their children when there beating the crap out of them for minor offenses.?
There not BOTHERD AT ALL. by YWH TORT CHAMBER The BABY, PREGNANT WOMAN, ANIMLS, INSCETS GENOCIDER
COMMANDS to take INNOCENT WOMANA AND CHILDREN
EAT FLESH
STOONE WOMAN and WOMAN CHILDREN
SLAVERY
yes ywh, Spawn LOVE
Interesting, I have found that Christians are pretty well hated among most other groups. I have also found that Christians make up the vast majority of donations and non profits globally. Perhaps that is in spite of their beliefs, but this seems like an odd case to make. After all, love is an action too is it not?
😔😞😞😢
Basically… “Love me or burn”
Sounds like an abusive relationship.
Pass
Just what you would expect from a narcissist.
Do not be so quick to
There is nothing paradoxical I see in Brandon and his followers love for this channel. And I predict in the new year we`re going to see a rise in subs. And no one will be commanded to or made a threat of fear or punishment. That`s genuine love and a Happy New year to everyone!
So kind, Zach! Thank you very much! Cheers
This channel is not a perfect one. There are times when some people in the comments catch a mistake on a video, or Brandon needs to iterate something in a different context.
But damn, this channel and others in the atheist/skeptic community have been so great. I just hope everyone realizes the impact they’re making to people like you and I who’re working on freeing oneself from the shackles religion can sneak onto us.
@@trythelight8319 I couldn`t agree more!
Argh, is it next Sunday yet? Damn but this was a good one! This was one of the big questions I had all my life that I got very good at just ignoring. I remember when I finally admitted I was an atheist, asking my wife if she was worried that because I "fell out of love with God" that I could also fall out of love with her, as I have heard some evangelical spouses declare. She wasn't worried, as it turns out, which is good, because, as I said then and say now, the kind of love I have for my wife and kids, the kind of self-sacrificial love that causes me to put their needs ahead of mine and rejoice that they even exist...I NEVER felt that kind of love for Jesus. And felt very guilty about it. But it was entirely because coerced love isn't love.
Perfectly said! Thanks for sharing this. You are right on.
Most hated home decor: signs around people's houses ordering me to "BELIEVE".
Personally I think belief in anything is probably a bad idea. It seems to me that belief usually amounts to unthinkingly and often unfeelingly accepting someone else's story about how things are. My aim these days is to have fewer and fewer beliefs; they get in the way of knowledge, and possibly also of truth.
@@sundayoliver3147To me it is opposite by belief I see what my eyes cannot
@@Bojan12 I see what my eyes cannot, too -- and I don't see that as something I come to by belief: it's something I open to, experience, and then know.
Belief is tricky, because we become so blinded by it. I'm actually doing my best to either dissolve beliefs or hold them very lightly, in the understanding that new experience and knowledge may well make me change my belief.
@@sundayoliver3147 Since I witnessed power of God there is nothing that I do not believe anymore. He opened my eyes completely and shocked me greatly how much I actually did not know. Faith is really something incredible and beyond any understanding that is why it is one of the main keys into God’s Presence
Love for God is not about selflessness but about submission. You must, not only do everything that God wants, but you must love it and do it eagerly. It's meant to totally crush your wants and individually to serve another like in some sort of sick dungeon erotic roleplay.
And the roleplay with god isn't even consensual.
This is the problem with an "all loving" God.
It's clear there's a severe expectation to worship him and the love thing is for the sake of public relations
It is most beautiful thing because He made it to be that way
Happy 2024, Brandon, to you and your family!
Another thoughtful, cogent presentation - I wish these sorts of discussions were possible in churches, where people could openly air their doubts and issues with faith instead of being hammered at to ‘believe, believe, believe!’
Your discussion reminded me of Les Miserables, where the convict Jean Valjean, released after 19 years, is invited to stay with the Bishop and given dinner and a place to sleep. He steals silver plates and silverware, and runs away as he’s used to hiding and scrapping for everything . The police bring Valjean back, and the Bishop says that Valjean forgot the candlesticks which were a gift as well - the Bishop does not demand punishment for Valjean, and he makes no demands of him - he freely gives
Christianity focuses intensely upon the crucifixion of Jesus as a sacrifice for the sin and evil of humankind - and humans in return, should rightly respond in obedience and love.
In Star Trek V: The Final Frontier, James T Kirk asks, “What does God need with a starship?” What does an Eternal, N-dimensional, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent Being need with human love? Shouldn’t humans love God not out of fear or command? Is not God big enough not to require anything of humans?
Thank you for this wonderful comment. Not only was it so kind but mixing Les Mis with Star Trek is no easy task!
Truly Brilliant !!!
Paraphrasing Forrest Gump, "And that's all that needs to be said about that."
@MindShiftSkeptic Exactly!😂❤🙏
Yes.🙏❤️
The fact that it is commanded and comes with threats is why I find it ridiculous when Christians then say that God's love is unconditional. The fact is love is and can never be unconditional. Love for anyone is always based on certain conditions. The problem with God's love and the love of all narcissists and abusers is that it is based on the wrong conditions.
Well put!
I agree, the Hebrew Bible shows how conditional God’s love is. The New Testament follows it up with his conditionality
Right! If god love was truly unconditional there would no Hell, maybe an after-death rehab or whatever to prepare you for heaven. But why would god make people in the first place just to love & obey him. What the Hell does the creator of everything even get out of that?
It kinda like Stockholm Syndrome but not exactly. It's more like a narcissistic forced abusive love where you are walking on eggshells in fear of messing up and being punished. But you think it's love because everyone else tells you that it is. Brandon I am all over the place with this response because it is triggering me in a bad way. Thanks for this video. Happy New Years
Sorry for the trigger. It really is amazing how abusive the concept that so many of us were subjected to for so long is. Happy new years!
It's being in an abusive relationship. I've been there. It sucks.
I feel your pain. Christians love to rescue their beliefs by telling us, "But don't worry! God has forgiven all of your screw ups! No need to walk on eggshells." But for me, I live in agony because in my heart and mind, I KNOW I'm a complete failure to God. How can a child find peace when his father keeps telling him he is a daily disappointment to him? How can a kind, sincere child live a healthy, happy life knowing he is essential worthless garbage in his father's eyes? It is soul crushing. As a struggling Christian, this is the pain I constantly feel. Christians act like I should feel great about God's mercy. Yet, I feel like a complete loser and disappointment. How can this be healthy for a child? And, like you said, this loving father has essentially predetermined that the vast majority of my brothers and sisters I live with will roast with their flesh burning off for eternity. How can anyone find comfort in this religion?? I am trying so, so hard. But man, I'm like you, walking on eggshells. The more I think, the weaker my faith in Christianity.
@@RichRocketMan I have never looked at god as a person on mercy but more like something to constantly fear. I always thought he was looking for ways to punish me. And laughing about it the entire time. I did not attention church out of love it was always out of fear
I had a brother like that growing up. You never knew when he was going to snap. Any little thing would set him off. Saying no to any demand potentially would result in physical assault or broken possessions. (if he didn't just straight up steal them anyway) He even could have potentially killed me on a couple of occasions growing up. One of my friends even admitted she lived in fear for my life on a near daily basis and expected one day to get the call saying he killed me. Even worse, when he was hauled away in a stretcher to a mental institution as a kid, I cried and wrote him a letter saying how much I loved him.
I definitely don't love him anymore and since he was sentenced to 60 years in prison, I no longer need to live in fear of him.
Thank you Brandon. I have used your videos as a learning tool and as a defense against those who are STILL trying to reindoctrinate me (although I think that has more to do with all the money I gave to the church over the years). I have been called every name in the book for not conforming to the biblical standard of womanhood (having babies and domestic slavery). You and Kristi Burke released me from the shackles ⛓️⛓️💥 of christianity, and I am forever grateful.
I am doing life on my own now (evangelical family and friends are now gone), so I am on a journey of self-discovery and travel to find my atheist tribe. Happy New Year and all the best to you and yours🎉🎉❤!!!
Congratulations! I'm sorry about your family but that's a lot of courage to stick to your guns and stand up for yourself being an autonomous human.
We should talk sometime. My family is deeply religious and they are giving me a little space but waiting on me to come back to the church. I have only walked away 2 months ago. But I have had questions my entire life.
@imjustsayingthough2261 I totally sympathize. Even as a child, many things in the Bible disturbed me when it came to the treatment of women and children, but I was always dismissed by my parents, my pastors, other women, my sunday school teachers, everyone. They all tried to convince me that God loves women, but the Bible itself totally contradicts that. That "God" is a misogynistic psychopath.
I am thrilled to hear you have made it out and happy to have helped in any regard. Thanks for being here and for sharing. Wishing you well on this amazing and terrifying journey out!
Life can be very rough sometimes, but when *YOU* own it, are curious, careful and kind, it is then that one really lives !
Virtual hugs through the internet !! Never stop finding the joy in big things and the smallest. Religion keeps people with wings from flying.
Happy New year to you and your family Brandon! 2023 you gave us wisdom we could never repay! Here’s to more growth and wisdom 2024! 🎉
So very kind. Thank you! Cheers
I came from an abusive household and as I got older I learned what toxic relationships were and how abusers/manipulators use various manipulative tactics to keep their victims from reaching out, leaving them, getting help etc. and as someone who was still a self proclaimed Christian at the time, I was honestly horrified at the similarities between these tactics and “relationships” and how we were supposed to “love” god and how he “loved” us. Needless to say, it became an extremely important part of my deconstruction
From childhood I was taught God's love is unconditional (especially when preached by Billy Graham) and yet when I got a bit older I thought "okay, unconditional love with a condition"
12:49 and then there are those denominations that demand the addition of baptism (Adult baptism, mind you, not that heretical infant baptism) AND the addition of the baptism of speaking in tongues to be a "real" Christian...
Yes. Its right there in the bible.
Let's say someone wants to believe in the Christian God but doesn't get baptized. So if they don't take the magical bath then God will still despise them and send them to hell? I never really thought about what baptism is. I know my parents had me baptized as a baby but I never cared about that.
@@suicune2001No and there will be many who were not baptized in Heaven
@@Bojan12 Prove it.
No, Gods love is definitely conditional. Even after someone is saved, they have to work to keep it. Whereas unconditional love is a gift where the person giving doesn’t expect anything in return. God expects you bear fruit or you will be cut off and thrown into the fire. He’s a psycho
Happy new year, Brandon. The O.T. demand for obedience is tolerable because it's achievable; the N.T. demand for love is incomprehensible, ridiculous, altogether impossible. The new covenant didn't make things better, it made it worse.
I don’t think either was achievable but i hear you overall. It only gets worse and the NT is not the breath of fresh air its claimed to be. And happy new year, friend!
Someone walks up to you " you be my friend. If you don't I'll beat the crap out of you every day till you do. So will you be my friend?"
So many analogies that put this in perspective
That is not how it works
Perfect. Well thought out and well expressed.
Thanks, Ron! Appreciate that.
Freely love me or else!
Can’t wait for the next part of this video!
Thanks!
Imaginary things cannot survive without love
This one hit too hard. I kept nodding my head through out the video because every word Brandon said was a point.
God's love has always been conditional, and the first time i noticed this was in the ten commandments read to the israelites by Moses. Almost every commandment ended with "for I am the Lord your god who brought you out of slavery.' Sounded so much like a guardian constantly reminding their adopted children that they helped bring them out of misery or the orphanage.
Great point!
There's another observation that I find interesting and telling: The first few commandments are quite wordy, and try to justify or explain themselves. Those are the ones that concern God, and specifically establish the power hierarchy with God at the top. The other commandments are very brief and contain no justification or explanation, they are the "social" commandments, i.e. they are about the relationship between people.
My conjecture is that the social commandments need no explanation because they were self-evident even then, i.e. the people already knew them. It is indeed hard to imagine that people who had been living in Egypt, in the most advanced civilization of the time, could have been unaware that murder or theft is bad!
The long commandments, however, are not self evident. They establish something new, the absolute dominance of a single God who cannot be questioned and must be obeyed. Hence the explanations and justifications. Putting those two types of commandments together into a single package is a cunning trick to make them appear inseparable. Even though the social commandments are undoubtedly much older than the God of the Israelites, it now looks as if all the commandments came from him as a coherent package.
The trick works to this day, as we can see. Christians still believe that the ten commandments are from God, and that they are the foundation for all morals.
Happy new year!
Missed this, thanks so much!
I think I was born atheist. Or at least with the inclination. My family was Christian and I remember my first theological WTF moment. I'd learned that I was supposed to love God above all things. I wasn't even in grade school yet, but I had questions. I asked my mother if I had to love God more than her and my dad and she said, yes, I did. This worried me for a long time. My family was my world, but I'd never even seen God.
Everyone is born atheist. It takes training and teaching to make us believe specific god concepts.
Thinking is the enemy of religion. Even being raised in a pretty heavily Christian family, I never felt anything for religion. It was boring and an obligation. Then in the 5th grade I decided I wanted none of it because I couldn't shake the feeling Christianity and Christians didn't like girls.
There are studies that indicate that there is likely a biological component to spiritual faith. It can be temporarily induced by stimulating certain regions of the brain and religiosity seems to have a genetic component.
@@Hitoshura844 Fascinating stuff. I read something about that a while back.
@@Hitoshura844 I don't see how it can be a genetic component when newer generations are less religious than the previous. Religion is only about filling gaps in human knowledge and controlling people. Usually the more critical thinking and logic you possess, the less likely you are to be religious or eventually stop being religious. Mentally unstable people who don't think too much cling to religion.
To be spammed at the podium with 'agape love', and the confidence upon saying such throughout my teenage years while in church, and how it's comically presented now is just great. Thanks, Brandon. Way to further build on the potential of atheism. 👍 See everyone in 2024.
Cheers!
Magnificent overview, Brandon. It's impossible to look at this any other way. Brilliant!
Thanks, Glenn. Many would disagree ha but i think its all just too clear.
Can love be genuine if you're forced to do it at gunpoint? I was a Christian for over 20 years. I thought that I loved God, but looking back the big smile on my face was just hiding the terror that I felt inside of me. I sacrificed every part of my life to God as he commanded and then I would brag to unbelievers about the freedom I had in Jesus.
Thanks for sharing
sorry You were allowed to carry on apathy, our hearts have some growing to do even after accepting christ and if our apathy isn't addressed it can come out as pride and work based salvation when our purpose with christ is to gain empath.
@@icoleman007 I appreciate your take on me, but trust me, you don't know my story at all. It's a long one and far more complicated than just not having the right attitude or enough faith. Christians love to think that if someone stops believing in God then they must have been doing it wrong.
@@4dojo
If I go away from Christ, all I have left is this world.
@@aheartonfire7191 Okay. But that's a C.S. Lewis style argument. You're basically saying that you believe that God exists because it would be kind of depressing if he didn't exist.
Happy New Year my friend!
So kind and generous! Thanks so much
You are probably sick of me fanboying over you by now, but once again you are hitting the nail on the head! also you are speaking all the doubts and thoughts that where deemed evil that I have had for years! pleas dont ever stop preaching the real truth! Thanks to you I now proudly say I am an atheist! thank you so much, you have done more for me in a month than Christianity have done in years (oh, have I really been trapped in this for years?). hope you have had a good well earned rest this Christmas and I hope the new year gives you all that you want and need :D
So kind and no worries at all. I have a few people that were this for me during my deconstruction and i am honored to get to pay it forward with you.
@@MindShift-Brandon Thank you =)
That was intense, Brandon. You have a way of hitting the nail on the head.
Thank you. Appreciate you being here
If God commands people to love, and sincere love is necessary, why are there sociopaths who can't process or form meaningful attachments to other individuals? If someone's brain is just wired in such a manner that they CAN'T express or feel what other people call "love," how can they love God with all their heart/mind/strength even if they want to?
Also, if God's love is merely analogous to the human concept of "love," which kind of love is God commanding us to have? If God doesn't love the way we humans love, then it seems like we can't love God the way God would love God.
EDIT: Also, if obedience is the way love is shown, God can't love us, because God doesn't and cannot obey us.
Yes. These are excellent issues to point out.
Inly by being born again one can love God otherwise you cannot and never will because you cannot see or know Him to do
Happy New Year to all and especially those who start their journey out of the craziness that's Christianity in 2024!!🎉🎈🥳
Love that, Jenna. Thanks for being here.
So excited to sit down when I have more time to really listen to this content … immediately subscribed !
Thats so nice to hear. Welcome!
If God truly loved someone, they wouldn't force, threaten, or command anyone to love him or her or it. He would allow them to go their own way in this life and when they were ready they would allow them to die or rest instead of suspending their soul or whatever being endures after our death in perpetual torment for a period of time that is unfathomable and torment them in ways they couldn't even conceive in their worst lucid nightmares or night terrors. Thank you so much for the logic and reason you brought to this research where it would be shunned and feared in the church even persecuted.
So well said! Thanks for the comment and the kindness
We are not the ones who will command God what to do
@Bojan12 what does that mean? Is that supposed to be some sort of empty threat? 😡
@@thegametroll6264His jealousy burn like Hottest Fire which hurts and destroys everything that have ignited it
👍🏾I’ve been saying this. Nobody else sees it, I don’t understand why nobody can see this. Amazing! Happy new year!🎆
Thanks, cheers!
Always Grateful!
As am i for your support. Thanks!
A better concept (which maybe didn't exist at that time) would be empathy. Understand that others are like you. Understand that they have the flaws and bad judgment just like you do. Just like love, empathy is the opposite of hate but different and more nuanced.
I like that
Love you Brandon.
These presentations make the huge and blatant plot holes in that ancient text so obvious, it is amazing. To be able to steelman the ideas and then point out the inconsistencies the way you do is truly artful. Hopefully it helps the hard of thinking to be less sucked in by smooth talkin' preachers and gets them to be much more discerning about reality.
Please continue this service to humanity. Far too much time is taken up being distracted by religion, which could be used to support public service, prevent wars by engaging with other, help prevent diseases through good practices and avoid poverty by voting for people who have been researched to be honorable, knowledgeable people.
Amen.
What a comment. Thanks so much for the love and kindness! This was very encouraging
Bang on once again! Love cannot be forced or demanded. You make it so perfectly clear. I hope you can feel the 'love' we are all throwing your way. Happy New Year!
Thanks so much! Cheers!
Again, wow! A great analysis. You said it all…this god’s ‘love’ is not Love at all. It’s an imbalance of power…abusive at its core, direct from the bloody Bronze Age of emperors and kings. We do not need any more ‘kings’.
Thanks for your overwhelming body of insightful work!
What a comment! Thank you so very much
I turned on notifications for you for these very topics. You bring items up that I would have never thought of and have been paramount in my questioning of whether I actually believe in this God. I was a campus minister with a local church for 2 years and decided to quit because I started heavily questioning God when I started asking questions on how to reach Gen Z which is arguably one of the more irreligious generations we've seen at least within the west (probably thanks to the internet). Just wanted to thank you for helping in the process.
Thank you for this! Appreciate the support and am so glad to have been able to help!
Gen Z is a very skeptical generation. That is both a blessing and a curse 🙂
Freedom from religion allows for much greater (albeit harder) opportunities to make the world a better place. Teach discernment, encourage curiosity, be an example of kindness, for that we will all be grateful !! (That witnessing sh-t is just annoying at best and extremely disappointing at worse... proclaiming not to behave like a complete destructive jerk is admirable...but - "because of jesus (not his real name)" is simply admitting a lack of self awareness.
I'm sorry you had to go through such a hard time to find your own religious position. Still, I hope you can look back and feel that you did some good as a councilor even if you weren't successful as a missionary.
If you ever want to get back into something similar without the religious baggage, I've heard that Hospices are always looking for grief councilors. If you want to minister to those in need without the proselytizing that might be a good fit for you.
As always, you have given me a lot to think about. I am going to share this video and summarize its main points on Facebook because I feel my Christian friends will at least read my comments on the video, even if they won't watch the video.
Glad to provide anything that helps one question
There’s no better hate like “Christian love” .
"We don't hate the sinner," they say. "We hate the sin."
lol....yeah, then why are you such douchebags?
Only a Christian (like WLC) can say with a straight face that genociding babies is good for them, and a loving act. "They go straight to heaven!"
😔😞😞😢
@@blueStarKitt7924 it’s sad because it’s true
@@KeytarKris Yes.🙁
What about muslin “love” 😇
When I was a child I was told that God loves us and we go to heaven when we die if we are good instead of remaining dead. That seemed fair to me. One day in church I learned about the other option. My love for God totally disappeared and I have not been able to separate him from Satan ever since. Your video was on point. There is nothing that can force me to love anyone that wants to force me to love them. I can't even pretend like most Christians are doing.
Indeed!
But Jesus died for me on that cross so that I don’t go there and He will forgive me of my past and heal me and if I would end up in Hell, it would be because I did bad things and I have. God is also Holy and will judge the world. Our justice system and judges in today’s world are corrupt and I’m so glad Jesus will judge each and everyone of us. We need it.
It is called commitment
what a great video.....another eye opener...thanks a million 🙂
So glad to hear. Thanks!
Great video! I remember having some of this discussion with my mother, and her comeback was that God commands us to love because WE need it, not him. Still, I only found this convincing for a short time because if God made us with that need, it still says something about his wants or desires.
As always Brandon, great points and discussion. I love that you bring up these very valid concerns with religious texts and beliefs. The xenophobic, conditional and threatening love is not the way. But it’s great that you always present these contrasts to bring home important concepts like real love without all of the ugly religious distortions. Keep up the good work!
Thanks so much!
What is love? Baby don’t hurt me, don’t hurt me no more!
Lol!
Possibly your most powerful video yet, Brandon, I look forward to part two. Happy new year!
Many thanks for that! Cheers!
Happy New Year Brandon!!!
I appreciate all your work and dedication and wish you a productive and pleasant 2024 for you and all your family. Always take care and keep showing the true love that is earned and not commanded over threats of fire and torment
Happy new year! And thank you dearly.
I love that your name is Brandon. Same as my brothers. He just had twin boys and every reminder of him, my SIL, or the twins makes me feel true warmth and love. God I want to hold them. They were premature so I have to wait till February.
Thats real love. If they don't love me, I would love them just the same.
Happy new year! Congratulations for ending 2023 on 31K+ subscribers, and I hope you'll get many more in 2024.
Thank you very much! Cheers!
"God says, 'You MUST love me', which is to say that you are required to do that which would only be acceptable if done voluntarily." The philosopher Alan Watts said that, and the guy had even been an Anglican minister for a while, but he realized that Christianity just wasn't the way to go for him. He found the Eastern religions much more coherent, and especially in the case of Buddhism, which CAN be Atheistic, depending on how you practice it.
Thats a perfect way to put it! Good ol Watts!
@@MindShift-Brandon, he had a very interesting life, but the weird thing about him was his death, actually. He was sick and he knew it, from what I understand, so he went off to his country house to live alone with his son Mark, who he called in to live with him specifically for when he died. He actually had Mark cremate and scatter his body along his estate literally so that people couldn't build some kind of shrine to him, which is CREEPY, but that's how famous he was. And the whole cremation and scattering bit went down less than a day after he died. He just wanted the job done quickly and secretly by the sounds of it. I don't know how true any of this is, by the way, but, again, so famous that people tell stories about him. I've heard his daughter Anne talk about this: how she hated being called "Alan Watts' daughter" rather than just Anne, you know?
It's becoming more and more apparent to me that God was invented by narcissists wanting to be given unconditional love and loyalty and unchallenged, unquestioned power by everyone they met as God's "chosen" prophet or divine leader.
I think you are on to something
It's amazing how deeply the indoctrination goes. Not until I hear you say it the way you do did I even start to question what's wrong with being commanded to love God! But you're right. If God is love, there's no need for the command.
It does indeed!
Well, after all I have learned from you: Commanding to be loved is gods only chance to get some. There is none to be expected on the basis of his track record. 🤣 Thank you for all you do and Happy New Year to you Brandon.
Haha! Thats funny and true. Thank you! Cheers
Wrong I fell in love with Him when He saved me from demons and suicide. I absolutely fell in love
@@Bojan12Two things:
1. Ted Bundy had many fans, just like many criminals. He was kind of a hero for then, for some, God.
2. If God really saved you from something, how are you required to love him? He created the troubles you are in the first place. He is just a powerful psycho, with whom no one would want to have a relationship
@@TruthSeeker-c6z I love Him and always will
@@Bojan12 Good, but please don't judge people who love other things more.
Happy New Year to all my fellow heathens!
Cheers!
I really want a horror movie based on the Bible and “god” being the main villain.
God isn't a villain lol
No thanks I do not want anymore pain
Forgot to say my previous comment: congratulations on your well-deserved success with your channel in 2023. Can't wait to see how it grows with a full year in 2024!
Thanks, Doug!
If you demand love, you don't deserve it. Anyone that doesn't understand that, doesn't understand what love is. Also, based on the biblical definitions, god doesn't love anyone.
Perfectly put!
Do not be stupid
@@Bojan12 I'm not. I understand what love is, unlike the made up christian god. If you believe in the christian god then you're the stupid one. That thing is the most horrible being ever made up by people.
@@Bojan12he isn’t, unlike you
@@Bojan12he isn’t, unlike you.
I get excited whenever I see a new Mindshift video! This is one of your best! Happy New Year, Brandon!
Jareth: "I ask for so little. Just fear me. Love me. Do as I ask, and I shall be your slave."
Sarah: "You have no power over me..."
I love IT! Ha! Brandon, you keep knocking them out of the park. Many years ago RUclipsr, "Non-Stamp collector" did a series on free will that point out the same as you with a touch of humor. Your work is really good, clean, clear and to the point.
Thats very motivating to hear. Thank you!
This has me thinking of when I used to keep pet rats, over the course of several years. As a rule, domesticated rats are sociable and affectionate, and I enjoyed building relationships with them, even the ones that where more shy.
(think dogs, but potato-sized and with little hands).
There was one exception in a female (who was older, had been alone in the petstore, and had wheel-tail, so no knowing what sort of background she'd had) who was outright mean. I had to be very careful reaching in the cage for anything and always keep track of where she was, since she liked to lunge and bite if you got too close. If I took the rats out for playtime, I had to be sure I had good footwear one or just keep a close eye out, because she'd nip my toes.
She didn't love me, she didn't like or trust me at all.
This didn't affect the fact that I was responsible for her well-being, and the thought of punishing her for it would seem ridiculous, not in spite of but *because* of the huge power imbalance between us.
Similarly, if you kept an ant farm, what difference does it make whether the ants believed in you or not? Could you really be bothered to suss out the good, believing ants from the 'bad' nonbelievers? Devise a punishment/reward system for them? It would be unbelievably pathetic.
Excellent point! To expand on the ant analogy:
Christians also often say that as he's the creator, you must be submissive because he's so much more powerful. Well, the ant mother (queen) isn't powerful at all! All ants in the colony descend from her, so in a sense she's their creator, but she is totally dependent on them and has no power to discipline or even crush them.
The notion of "you have to obey your creator" is bullshit.
I love your videos. I recently deconverted and you have a way of explaining things that really gets through to me. Thanks for the hard work, I sincerely appreciate it!
My pleasure! So glad to be helping
It hurts me that I know my parents will always place their faith above any relationship with me. Their "Great Commission" demands they step on my boundaries no matter what I say.
This is why fundamentalists are always going to be difficult to be around. They won't stop because their Sky Daddy comes first.
I feel this too
My first relationship was with someone with undiagnosed BPD. The love I received was very conditional based on how he was feeling or if I did certain things for him. When I couldn't take it and would say I'd like to leave, he would threaten self harm or self-exit from this plane. I didn't want to cause him any pain and I couldn't see any way out despite my friends and family begging me to leave him. I would sob in my car begging God to get me out of the relationship, one way or another. I had stopped going to church because of him and in a way, started deconstruction as well. Too much of the behavior in the "Great Book" was mirrored in front of me. I had dedicated my life to God, feeling that maybe someone would love me if I imagined it. Learning to love myself has been a more satisfying journey. Thank you for these videos, Brandon. You help keep the voice of my mother out of my head.
Great show Brandon 👏. Happy New Year 🎊
Thanks! Happy new year
Hi Brandon, really appreciate your videos as I am also going through deconstruction, although private and hard to accept sometimes. Thank you for making relevant, thought-provoking content!
Glad to be of help. I know how hard it is. Just keep learning!
@@MindShift-Brandon Thank you again! I'll keep learning, definitely.
My very religious mother would say, when I was growing up, that love is unconditional. In the next breath she'd threaten me with disownment when I did or said something she didn't like. The message I got: love is conditional based on obedience.
Reading their bible is one way of not believing, experiencing how its followers interpret it to justify their behavior, is another.
Brandon, you are helping me immensely. THANK YOU!!!
So glad to hear!
God loves you. God loves you so much that he created the world just for you, and all that he demands is that you love him back, no matter what he does, or he'll send you to hell to suffer in torment forever. God loves you.
Thanks!
Thanks so much for this, David!
Great videos. Thank you! ❤
Thanks for being here!
@@MindShift-Brandon dude. Ever since your appearance on “the line”. I instantly subbed and watch your content. I like your conversation style. Keep up the great work!
@Nicky_Dore thats awesome to hear! Thanks so much!
Great video Brandon! I definitely don’t think that free will even exists when love is commanded.
Thank you for your commentary! I actually went out and bought a Bible today. I've been an atheist for about 20 years now (I feel so old!). I didn't stop believing because of any logical argument, but more so because I felt like that connection was becoming hollower as time went on, to the point that it's like a kid growing up and realizing Santa doesn't exist. I spent a few years grieving that loss of faith. But getting into the atheist world back in the early 2000s was eye-opening as it helped me not only deconstruct Christianity as a whole, but the thought-process behind the concept of a deity and the afterlife. There are long bouts of time where I won't put much thought into being an atheist, but occasionally I will get back into consuming atheist/skeptics content. Your work has been really eye-opening! Despite going to K-12 Catholic schools, I've never actually read the Bible. My religious education was more about pulling out topical passages or hearing it read aloud in church. There are several stories that you have shared from the Bible that I had never heard before or had been contextualized very differently from how I grew up. Because of this, I want to spend time this year reading through the Bible, so I can interpret it for myself and have a better ground to stand on when talking to the religious believers in my life. Thank you for the hard work you do in bringing these subjects to life and creating an opportunity for people to chat about these ideas. Happy New Years!
Love that! Happy new years and good luck working your way through
Comically in reference to new v old testament consistency, I love that the books of enoch aren’t connonically recognized in christian books, yet Christ references him.
Yes tge Book of Enoch is Word of God
Very instructive, very persuasive. But I can say that Theology when it becomes at odds with itself, as in the examples you teach, it gets put on the shelf and is way secondary to the community that church brings. Community is in the forefront, singing, eating, networking is the more compelling reasons to belong. Very good vid.
Thank you and for sure. Most christian love is within the ingroup, not god…he just gets all the credit.
You have again hit this one right out of the park, and the discussion is getting very close to the central core issue in Christianity. I agree completely with everything you have said, with one stipulation at the beginning of the material: When I desperately became a Christian in 1973 I was a person who was unable to love others selflessly, my upbringing had groomed me to be forced to always look out for myself and my interests first and only to a few others around me if it suited my needs. I found the Bible's blunt and stark and simple command to love God and others the exact thing I needed to begin breaking out of my tomb of lovelessness, the simple plain unadorned command of God to love others was the exact 'baby-step' beginning that I needed to begin practicing the expanding lifestyle and character habit of love; I especially liked the part of it that said that I was to do acts of love towards others EVEN WHEN I DID NOT HAVE THE FEELINGS FOR IT; it was this blunt and clear instruction of love from the God of the Bible that finally got the ball rolling in my personality for the first time in my life and I was extremely grateful. However, decades later I have come to see the downside and abuse of this as you point out here, that God oftentimes does want us to love primarily for HIS benefit and not for ours and it easily becomes oppressive and regimented against us. I can hardly wait for your follow-up message next Sunday, it's going to be even better than this one.
Too kind! Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
When your love for a deity is rewarded by being stricken with stomach cancer and dying one week after graduating from high school, the threat of punishment for not loving said deity means nothing.
I’ve been deconstructing for a long time and I’m very appreciative of your content, it’s certainly helping the process along
Interesting timing on this topic. Just a couple weeks ago I had a discussion with my Dad about choosing to love versus spontaneous love, romantically speaking. I say it’s mostly spontaneous (pheromones and all that); he says it’s a choice (more brain driven). Never understood how people could say they love God/Jesus. How do you love someone you don’t actually know? I could appreciate the supposed sacrifice (although He could just say I was forgiven for my “sins”) but love? Just couldn’t do it. I tried really hard but, I need a physical being to muster up actual love! Am I too literal? And wouldn’t God rather we WANT to love Him than HAVE to love Him? That would always be my preference! Thanks for the thought provoking discussion!
Thanks for the comment! As someone who really thought i had a relationship with god, love made sense to me. But it was so obviously imaginary and constructed looking back. Unrequited to the full extent if the word.
You better want to love him or you will suffer.
@@emro164 Like you, I have been studying world religions (especially near-east religions) for a few years. Really seems the Bible is a mashup of the Atra Hasis, Epic of Gilgamesh, the works of Homer, the Enuma Elish, Osiris and many other mythologies. The idea man has a soul was primarily Plato’s hypothesis, it is most likely just the human brain. With hundreds of virgin births, savior gods, resurrections, etc. the entire idea any of it is real seems ridiculous. I appreciate your attempt to explain how one could love Jesus but, believing he taught about love (only half the time) still doesn’t provide an interactive relationship to enable one to love him. One could love the idea of him but, that isn’t knowing Jesus the person, only about Jesus. Not the same at all. I need feedback, dependability, kindness, compassion, etc. An invisible entity cannot do those things. Too remote, silent and untouchable.
8:14 *Garth Ennis'* _Preacher_ is a comic that takes God to be exactly that. God in that fiction was so empty inside and so desperate for validation, that that is _exactly_ the kind of love He wanted.
I have got to get that comic.
Thank you for this.
You got it, Tony. Happy new years!
You spoke big facts!!! 100%!! ❤❤
This video makes it sound like God manipulates people into loving him, kind of like in a manipulative relationship. Especially when you mention how he says he loves you unconditionally, but if you don't love him back then he will send you to eternal torment, but it is your fault being sent there because you chose it.
This sounds eerily similar to a woman that's stuck in an abusive relationship with a manipulative man, and my first instinct is to tell the woman that she needs to leave because this is very bad for her. That she deserves so much better than an abuser like him.
It takes years for a person to get over a manipulative relationship like that. The whole, "why do you make me beat you? Why couldn't you have just loved me? It's all your fault." Is very manipulative.
Exactly this.
❤
The only difference is imagine a world where everyone is against the abused wife, and keeps telling her to stay with the abusive man because he's actually not abusive. (Despite everyone being aware of what's going on, but imagine people somehow still deny it's abuse) Every time she tries to run away, they tell her she needs to stay with and obey him, imagine if everyone said it's her fault if he punishes her. And he's gracious enough to give her freewill by making her choose between getting set on fire in his basement or loving him forever.
@@F100-b7i So... The typical Evangelical Christian marriage. 😂
@@F100-b7i These analogies are really helpful! I've also been told recently by loved ones that my pride is on par with Satan because I have rejected Jesus' love.