Note: The modern EN417 canister is designed to a European Standard applicable to cartridges with a total capacity of between 50 ml and 1 000 ml, designed to contain liquefied petroleum gas or stabilized mixtures of liquefied petroleum gas with propadiene and/or methyl acetylene and/or di-methyl-ether or equivalent, where the pressure developed by the contents of the cartridge at 50 °C does not exceed 13,2 bar (13 atmospheres). These cylinders easily contain the pressures that result from using 80% butane / 20% propane, so it's perfectly safe to fill one with pure butane. The vapor pressure of butane is approximately 2 times lower than an 80/20 mix of butane & propane. Each canister should only be refilled 3-4 times. After that the seal can become compromised.
I was about to ask about how often to use a cannister for refills, due to the likelihood of a seal/seam becoming compromised. I was born under a lucky star, it seems, as I usually hand mine in for recycling, after three refills, but, on the rare occasion, have pushed my luck and re-used a cannister four times. Thank you for uploading and I'm now subscribed to your channel!
Thanks Marty, this is really helpful. I began doing this with propane last year for car camping, from my 20lb tank that I can fill for one dollar a pound into those one pound canisters that are close to ten bucks now. I didn't know I could do this for my backpacking canisters as well. I hate to take a partially full canister that adds weight and volume to my pack. But I guess I should be able to use them to top off others. This is potentially a lot better for the environment too, as I bet many people throw their partials out. Using the cans more than once could mean fewer cans in the landfill, and certainly less fuel wasted.
I have learned SO MUCH from you. Thank you for passing along this knowledge. I honestly had no idea so many configurations were possible with a square tarp. 🙂
I’m pretty new to backpacking and your content has been excellent learning material. It’s great to learn from someone with your experience and proven trail time. Thank you and keep up the great content 👍🏻
Cool hack. For clarity Marty, you’re basically transferring from the large can into the stubby cans because the stubby cans are better insulated and therefore perform better at colder temperatures than the large can, right?
Hi Neil. The tall cans are not really stable and therefore are not suited for use in the backcountry. The tall cans are for bigger stoves, typically used in homes or for car camping. So the basic reason for transferring to the stubby cans is because the stubby cans are the ones most of us us on our hikes. The stubby cans aren't insulated, they're just made of thicker metal. The reason for that is because they're sold around the world to store a variety of different fuel blends with different pressures. They're built to a European standard, and are rated for liquids that will generate a pressure up to 13 atmospheres at 50C. They're perfect for butane, but they couldn't be used for pure propane. The best cold temperature fuel would be propane, but the canisters would have to be too thick to be economical in small formats. This tip (refilling with butane) is really only good for summer camping. Cheers.
You can refill the 1 lb propane tanks in a similar fashion from the standard 15 lb tank on your patio grill, just like Marty demonstrated the small empty needs to go in the freezer.
I use the half empty cans when we lose power, when we go on a Dayhike in the spring and want a hot lunch, and kayak touring where space and weight is no issue. Never thought about refilling them. 👍👍
Thanks for the scientific explanation on fuel and canisters. Also, glad to see you're okay with this now. Down here I can get the big 440 gram Coleman brand blended fuel at Wal-mart for way cheaper than MSR. I've been topping off or refilling for quite a while. Never used the pure butane though. But like you said, those cans are super cheap!
Thanks. Mentoring is one of my responsibilities as a professional engineer, I like passing on knowledge, but I'm not cut out to be an actual teacher. I don't like routine.
So cool! PV=nRT practicum, I guess? Another blogger showed that the smaller canister, full, yields 12 boil times per 500ml of water. (sea level?). I think that's correct.
Overfilling is not just a matter of vapor pressure. Butane does have a lower vapor pressure than propane, but if you add too much butane and there is not enough vapor space left, when the liquid warms up and expands it will eventually end up taking all the space in the canister and will absolutely overpressure the canister and cause it to burst. Since butane and propane have a very similar density, do not fill over the gross weight regardless of whether it is butane or propane or isobutane. A nominally full canister is mostly liquid with some vapor space. It is critical to leave enough vapor space to allow for thermal expansion of the liquid, regardless of the composition of the liquid that is in it..
Hey Marty, greetings from Ohio. Thanks for taking time to make enjoyable/informative videos. Seeing your sailboat in the shop made me wonder if you have ever considered making sailing videos for the channel?
Thanks for the kind words Paul. That sailboat in a 1968 Flying Dutchman that competed in several Olympics over the year (under different owners, not me). It's a 2-person boat that is extremely fast and requires a lot of work to sail. I tried making a video, but it's too distracting when sailing this thing. My dream is to buy a large boat and sail around the Mediterranean for a few years. When I start that adventure in the next few years I'll change the theme of my channel.
Valve ordered thanks for the demo Marty! One question not related to fuel but related to your kayak in the background (time stamp 16:58) are they the 10 foot or the 12 foot pelican ? I'm looking at getting the 12foot model and was just wondering if you are happy with yours? Thanks Ernie.
Costco specials. Pelican model KY10 (2018). They were $399.99 each, and came with oar, spray skirts (which we never use) and a roof-top carrier. We use them all the time. I've gone down the Bow River with no issues. 10' fits in the back of my pickup without too much overhang. Also a bit lighter than the 12'. Fun at the lake.
Thanks Marty, I have several of the small MSR cartridges that are half full or less. What do you do? I don't want to take two or three partial cartridges on a trip, and if I just keep buying new ones, I'll have more partial ones. This solves that. Good work.
Well shit. I just dropped off close to 10 partially used cans to nearside fire station. And was thinking what a waste it was. Keep this stuff coming Marty. Great info.
@@Martyupnorth I leave my unripe bananas in the fridge, (in a sealed container, so it's gas doesn't hasten the other fruit and veg) to ripen. I prefer soft bananas and they reach that stage when the peel turns black.
Thanks Marty now you've got me thinking. If you take a full butane and empty red and fill "as much as you can", how much product goes into the red? What we care about is pressure, not liquid content so if it "holds" 300 instead of 211 would there be any issue in overfilling? Or, does there need to be some space in the red for the fuel to vaporize before exiting the can? Which leads to - what about the whisper lite that can use inverted canisters where the design heats the liquid fuel in a tube just before it goes to the burner. With that design, you should be able to use pure Butane without a problem and seeing as the canister is only a carrying vessel, it could be loaded as much as it'll take. Finally, if both canisters have the same internal pressure but there is more fuel in the top canister, won't gravity pull that fuel down anyway? I "think" that's how the small fuel transfer valve you have was designed to work to transfer fuel from partially used canisters to other partially used canisters.
Hey Don, It's all about pressure. Actually, vapour pressure to be exact. The EN417 canister is designed to handle 13 atmospheres of pressure at 50 Celsius. Above that the seam will come apart. Pure n-butane has a vapour pressure of 5 atm at 50C so it's fine. Even at 80C the vapour pressure of butane is only 10 atm. Propane, on the other hand, reaches 5 atmospheres at only 1.4C, and quickly climbs to 10 atm at 26.9C. Loading an EN417 with pure propane is definitely not recommended, as it would blow around 30C. Mixtures of butane/propane fall in between. In theory there is no need to leave a vapour space in the canister. You should be able to fill right to the top if you are confident in the exact composition of the product. In the propane industry practice is to limit fill to 80% capacity. That's because the specification allows up to 2% ethane, which has a very high vapour pressure. I decided to verify. The empty canister weights 101 g, which means I loaded it with 113 g of butane. The specific gravity of butane is roughly 0.6, so that equates to 188 ml. I measured the full volume of the canister by water displacement, and it's approximately 250 ml, which is 72% (give or take). I think your comment on gravity is correct. A fluid is a fluid, and that would definitely be the case with water. I thought about equalization in the video because I was holding the assembly horizontally. I love these chats, and I absolutely knew you'd comment once you saw this video. Cheers my friend.
Thanks for the video. If you know the mix is 20% propane to 80% butane, do you think there is any issue with using the propane adapter to fill the 20% first of the total with the green propane canister and then the 80% butane?
You don't have to go into Chinatown. Here in Calgary stores like T&T carry them... most Asian stores do. I really like even the standard portable butane stove for car camping. Cheap light fuel and the stove is light too. I also have a adapter so I can use a pocket stove that rests on the ground with a butane tank. Handy stuff!!!
Thanks for the tip Tobi. It's much appreciated. I love visiting T&T, they have such amazing variety of foods. If you watched a few of my buddy Chef Evan's videos, you'll see gourmet meals that he prepared for us on the trail, and many of his ingredients come from T7T and other Asian stores. Chef makes a Korean BBQ sauce from scratch that's out of this world. Cheers.
Nice to see an expert do this - most reassuring You make a good point at the end re the number of uses that I haven't seen elsewhere, namely "Each canister should only be refilled 3-4 times. After that the seal can become compromised." I assume one can get these seals although I suspect they might need to be a certain material and not common O rings from a general hardware Have you any thoughts on this?
It's not a simple o-ring. It's a check valve. I would't risk replacing it. Just get used canisters at your recycle depot. Ours has a whole section of propane and butane canisters that people drop off.
Thanks for replying and clarifying. Is that valve intended to prevent over-filling by the way? I only ask as I have never heard mention of that valve in all the videos about refilling these cannisters. I'm sure hoping that you say yes as that would relieve the stress of over-filling and hassle of having to degas if you did. Would that be the case?
@@tuberider1171 No. It's an internal check valve designed to keep the butane from escaping when the stove is removed. When you scrw in the stove it pushes on the valve.
@@Martyupnorth hey .. well that makes sense. Many thanks for all your information .. of all of the RUclips videos posted yours is my go to for information By the way. Have you ever refilled to the MSR %, i.e. with Butane 80% and 20% Propane?
Nice video and I see you have what I call a dis to dat(adapters) you actually have 2 dis to dats. I’m a mechanic and when I need fittings and go to our parts department I give them 2 different fittings and tell them I need a dis to dat… thanks for video
Good video. So, Theoretically, if you can fill that butane canister with roughly 60-70 grams of butane, could you fill it first with 5 - 10 grams of propane THEN fill the rest with butane and make a winter mixture... theoretically? I just bought a half dozen adapters off Amazon and am getting into gas fuelled products to use in relation with my wood, briquettes, electrical fuelled etc. setup for variety. Thank you in advance. =)
You are correct. You can make your own winter mix. Start with the butane, and add the propane. I don't think you would be able to do it the othe way around because the vapor pressure of propane is much higher. Let us know how that turns out.
Hi Marty, thanks for sharing the video, it inspired me a lot, it's the best video on this topic I've ever seen on youtube. I have a question when using butane fuel, is the product of pure butane combustion the same as that of a mixture of isobutane and propane? MSR reactor stove recommends using their canister as the only fuel. Will butane combustion lead to more carbon deposition, especially in porous media combustion, which will lead to stove plug? Which is the cleaner fuel? I would appreciate it if you could take the time to answer this question. Take care. Tevin.
Great question. Generally speaking, the products of combustion for any fuel are always water and carbon dioxide. As you suggest, for that to happen, the ratio of fuel to air has to be optimum. It also depends on the elevation. The soot/carbon deposit/plugging occurs when there isn't enough air. In this case the fuels are virtually identical. The blend when you buy the canisters is 80% butane/20% propane. The refill is 100% butane. In summer you won't notice any difference. In winter you will, but it will manifest itself as a lazy flame. A good test is to check the bottom of you pot or pan. If it's clean, then so will you burner. Cheers.
What would happen if you chill both below 0.4 C and just let the liquid butane drip down to the lower canister? Or are the valves too restrictive for the liquid?
Here's one like the model I used in the video. www.amazon.ca/Adapter-Filling-Canister-Backpacking-Camping/dp/B08CBGXQQK/ref=rtpb_7?pd_rd_w=gRAK9&pf_rd_p=164a4ce0-05d6-485d-91f8-34f2925e3c30&pf_rd_r=2GSWQDY63RQ5BZPE7QPM&pd_rd_r=2f499c31-a3be-4e54-8e69-ea6e833a6768&pd_rd_wg=ch4Gp&pd_rd_i=B08CBGXQQK&psc=1
This one is cheaper, but should work as well. It just doesn't have a valve, so a little riskier. www.amazon.ca/Adapter-Filling-Canister-Backpacking-Camping/dp/B08CBGXQQK/ref=rtpb_7?pd_rd_w=gRAK9&pf_rd_p=164a4ce0-05d6-485d-91f8-34f2925e3c30&pf_rd_r=2GSWQDY63RQ5BZPE7QPM&pd_rd_r=2f499c31-a3be-4e54-8e69-ea6e833a6768&pd_rd_wg=ch4Gp&pd_rd_i=B08CBGXQQK&psc=1
The full butane bottle is too flimsy for backcountry use. It also has a cheap valve that is easily damaged and could accidentally release all the content. The big bottles are designed for home use, and basically have to be stored upright. The little canisters are rugged, safer and can be just tossed inside a backpack.
I have the orange adapter for the butane to the vertical cans and i would be careful with using it right on a stove even one that is a remote stove with a "rat tail" as i have had them leak and that's just asking for problems in the wrong circumstances. I only use them to refill now.
@@Martyupnorth Also some of the adapters like the orange one have bad tolerances on the fitting and can leak through the fitting as well which is also a problem at times. It's all made in Chy-Na soooooooo .... lol
Why don't you screw all the adaptors together and then weigh them seperately from the cannister to be filled. Add this to the weight of the receptor canister. That way you can do your fill by disconnecting the supply canister only to creep up on say 180 gm of fuel, or whatever you decide you need in your refilled canister without having to screw and unscrew everything several times.
@@Martyupnorth Uffff thanks, is there a propane canister that i can refill. not the coleman bottle, but something like the MSR canister but in propane ?
@@TheStryderPrime Not to my knowledge. Propane is cheaper as a fuel, but more dangerous to store. It has a high vapor pressure, so that's why the Coleman tanks are so heavy. If you filled a small cartride with propane, it would rupture if the temperature got above 10-15C because the propane would "boil". Don't risk it.
@@TheStryderPrime I did refill my Gas Torch canister with propane. The Canister was about 30% filled, and i added some propane to it but i was using a Pressure gauge to make shure that i do not exeed the pressure inside the can. Winter gas mixture has a pressure around 3,5 - 4,5 Bar at 20°C and 4-5 Bar at 25°C I was only abe to get it to 3/4 full and was already over normal pressure. I did refill in little steps and keep looking at the Pressure. Now i have about 5,5 Bar 25°C Also its easy to overfill a little canister with a propane tank, also dangerous, nobody want to be near a can with like 200g propane pop... Now i have to keep the can colder than normal, because the vapor pressure is now a good amount higher than normal. It would not survive the 50°C pressure test anymore, so its not possibile to transport insite my car in the summer. That is okay in my case, because i use it only for my gas torch. Next time i will fist add butane (if its empty) then the propane :-)
Send me a e-mail at martinbelanger2015@gmail.com. I'll share my phone and we can have a chat. It's harder and harder to get drawn for elk. I usually hunt in 404, along the Highwood River. Took two 6x6 trophy from there in the last decade.
@@Martyupnorth Exactly, too full to toss out and too empty to justify taking up space in your backpack. And I already have a hard time figuring out what should stay and what should go and getting it all to fit, especially on longer trips, and I have very large volume backpacks...so I need less challenges when it comes to gear and stay or go choices!
Some people want the 110g canister filled for their Jetboil stoves, they nest nicely in the pot. Butane cans are too tall for some users, but yes, an adapter works too, I use one myself for a Trangia burner.
Of course he'll tell you that., he wants to sell you a new one for 4x the cost. But, there might be some truth to his statement. As a business owner he's not allowed to sell you a refilled canister, just like he's not allowed to sell you a refilled tube of tooth paste. I'm a private citizen, and as far as I'm concerned it's no body's business if I refill a canister.
@@Martyupnorth Indeed. I replace them every couple of years after so many refills just to avoid rusting and whatnot. No issues so far. Same with the green propane bottles. I just make sure that its got the same amount of weight as the original amount so that its not over-pressurized. Also best to always check them out before heading out there to see if they are leaking in the valve of the bottle and replace as needed. If you hear hissing and or smell when shaking it that's a sure sign :) Whats funny is they don't recycle the butane in those canisters if there is any left but they sure as hell get back the propane from the green ones which is why they take them back at most depots. I wouldn't be surpirsed to learn one day that some outfill somewhere is collecting them and refursbishing them are turning them back to service (the green propane bottles i mean).
@@draekko_ I've been to a few countries where refilled ones (the 1 litre propane bottles) are delivered to people's homes every day because they have no other means of cooking. Some third-world countries take recycling and reusing to a whole new level.
Shhh....I occasionally exceed the speed limit. I keep my eye pealed for the highway patrol and I'm extra alert for other vehicles when breaking the law.😁
Note: The modern EN417 canister is designed to a European Standard applicable to cartridges with a total capacity of between 50 ml and 1 000 ml, designed to contain liquefied petroleum gas or stabilized mixtures of liquefied petroleum gas with propadiene and/or methyl acetylene and/or di-methyl-ether or equivalent, where the pressure developed by the contents of the cartridge at 50 °C does not exceed 13,2 bar (13 atmospheres). These cylinders easily contain the pressures that result from using 80% butane / 20% propane, so it's perfectly safe to fill one with pure butane. The vapor pressure of butane is approximately 2 times lower than an 80/20 mix of butane & propane. Each canister should only be refilled 3-4 times. After that the seal can become compromised.
Thanks for the advice from 🇫🇷 😉
I was about to ask about how often to use a cannister for refills, due to the likelihood of a seal/seam becoming compromised.
I was born under a lucky star, it seems, as I usually hand mine in for recycling, after three refills, but, on the rare occasion, have pushed my luck and re-used a cannister four times.
Thank you for uploading and I'm now subscribed to your channel!
Thank you for a clear and expert demo, too much foolish advice on youtube fails to recognise that not all canisters are alike.
Thanks Marty, this is really helpful. I began doing this with propane last year for car camping, from my 20lb tank that I can fill for one dollar a pound into those one pound canisters that are close to ten bucks now. I didn't know I could do this for my backpacking canisters as well. I hate to take a partially full canister that adds weight and volume to my pack. But I guess I should be able to use them to top off others. This is potentially a lot better for the environment too, as I bet many people throw their partials out. Using the cans more than once could mean fewer cans in the landfill, and certainly less fuel wasted.
Thanks Jason. Great point on reducing waste. I should have mentioned that in the video as well. Take care. Marty
Can I ask, Jason, by _tank,_ do you mean bottle, such as those for caravans, etc?
Super helpful hack. I have a few partially filled MSR canisters from a previous trip, I now know what to do with them. Thanks man.
Glad it was helpful!
I have learned SO MUCH from you. Thank you for passing along this knowledge. I honestly had no idea so many configurations were possible with a square tarp. 🙂
I’m pretty new to backpacking and your content has been excellent learning material. It’s great to learn from someone with your experience and proven trail time. Thank you and keep up the great content 👍🏻
Welcome aboard!
Cool hack.
For clarity Marty, you’re basically transferring from the large can into the stubby cans because the stubby cans are better insulated and therefore perform better at colder temperatures than the large can, right?
Hi Neil. The tall cans are not really stable and therefore are not suited for use in the backcountry. The tall cans are for bigger stoves, typically used in homes or for car camping. So the basic reason for transferring to the stubby cans is because the stubby cans are the ones most of us us on our hikes.
The stubby cans aren't insulated, they're just made of thicker metal. The reason for that is because they're sold around the world to store a variety of different fuel blends with different pressures. They're built to a European standard, and are rated for liquids that will generate a pressure up to 13 atmospheres at 50C. They're perfect for butane, but they couldn't be used for pure propane.
The best cold temperature fuel would be propane, but the canisters would have to be too thick to be economical in small formats. This tip (refilling with butane) is really only good for summer camping. Cheers.
You can refill the 1 lb propane tanks in a similar fashion from the standard 15 lb tank on your patio grill, just like Marty demonstrated the small empty needs to go in the freezer.
I use the half empty cans when we lose power, when we go on a Dayhike in the spring and want a hot lunch, and kayak touring where space and weight is no issue. Never thought about refilling them. 👍👍
While putting canister in Freezer.. "Hunny Bunny won't be too happy." lol
Thanks for the scientific explanation on fuel and canisters.
Also, glad to see you're okay with this now. Down here I can get the big 440 gram Coleman brand blended fuel at Wal-mart for way cheaper than MSR. I've been topping off or refilling for quite a while. Never used the pure butane though. But like you said, those cans are super cheap!
You should be a science teacher for your next career. Awesome Marty
Thanks. Mentoring is one of my responsibilities as a professional engineer, I like passing on knowledge, but I'm not cut out to be an actual teacher. I don't like routine.
So cool! PV=nRT practicum, I guess? Another blogger showed that the smaller canister, full, yields 12 boil times per 500ml of water. (sea level?). I think that's correct.
Overfilling is not just a matter of vapor pressure. Butane does have a lower vapor pressure than propane, but if you add too much butane and there is not enough vapor space left, when the liquid warms up and expands it will eventually end up taking all the space in the canister and will absolutely overpressure the canister and cause it to burst. Since butane and propane have a very similar density, do not fill over the gross weight regardless of whether it is butane or propane or isobutane.
A nominally full canister is mostly liquid with some vapor space. It is critical to leave enough vapor space to allow for thermal expansion of the liquid, regardless of the composition of the liquid that is in it..
Hey Marty, greetings from Ohio. Thanks for taking time to make enjoyable/informative videos. Seeing your sailboat in the shop made me wonder if you have ever considered making sailing videos for the channel?
Thanks for the kind words Paul. That sailboat in a 1968 Flying Dutchman that competed in several Olympics over the year (under different owners, not me). It's a 2-person boat that is extremely fast and requires a lot of work to sail. I tried making a video, but it's too distracting when sailing this thing. My dream is to buy a large boat and sail around the Mediterranean for a few years. When I start that adventure in the next few years I'll change the theme of my channel.
I too have a dream of open ocean sailing and living later in life. Looking forward to whatever content you decide to produce.
Valve ordered thanks for the demo Marty! One question not related to fuel but related to your kayak in the background (time stamp 16:58) are they the 10 foot or the 12 foot pelican ? I'm looking at getting the 12foot model and was just wondering if you are happy with yours? Thanks Ernie.
Costco specials. Pelican model KY10 (2018). They were $399.99 each, and came with oar, spray skirts (which we never use) and a roof-top carrier. We use them all the time. I've gone down the Bow River with no issues. 10' fits in the back of my pickup without too much overhang. Also a bit lighter than the 12'. Fun at the lake.
ruclips.net/video/9KDBPLApy5k/видео.html This is a video taken by my buddy Eric when he came for a visit 2 summers ago. He's 6'4"
So I assume I could refill the small 100 g containers from a 450 g size of Iso in the same manner, correct?
Yes. Let gravity do the work. Little one on the bottom. A difference in temperature helps a lot.
Thanks Marty, I have several of the small MSR cartridges that are half full or less. What do you do? I don't want to take two or three partial cartridges on a trip, and if I just keep buying new ones, I'll have more partial ones. This solves that. Good work.
So how do you move the gas from canisters with less to the ones with more to top them off? What’s the trick there?
@@RoeMega25
The same process with a different adapter, cooling the one to be filled and warming the one to be filled from.
Well shit. I just dropped off close to 10 partially used cans to nearside fire station. And was thinking what a waste it was. Keep this stuff coming Marty. Great info.
More bananas in the freezer too! 😂
🍌
She loves making banana bread, banana muffins etc....
@@Martyupnorth Damn right!!! 🤤
@@Martyupnorth
I leave my unripe bananas in the fridge, (in a sealed container, so it's gas doesn't hasten the other fruit and veg) to ripen.
I prefer soft bananas and they reach that stage when the peel turns black.
I imagine putting a small hand warmer/heat pack on the top can will help speed up the transfer?
Thanks Marty now you've got me thinking. If you take a full butane and empty red and fill "as much as you can", how much product goes into the red? What we care about is pressure, not liquid content so if it "holds" 300 instead of 211 would there be any issue in overfilling? Or, does there need to be some space in the red for the fuel to vaporize before exiting the can?
Which leads to - what about the whisper lite that can use inverted canisters where the design heats the liquid fuel in a tube just before it goes to the burner. With that design, you should be able to use pure Butane without a problem and seeing as the canister is only a carrying vessel, it could be loaded as much as it'll take.
Finally, if both canisters have the same internal pressure but there is more fuel in the top canister, won't gravity pull that fuel down anyway? I "think" that's how the small fuel transfer valve you have was designed to work to transfer fuel from partially used canisters to other partially used canisters.
Hey Don, It's all about pressure. Actually, vapour pressure to be exact. The EN417 canister is designed to handle 13 atmospheres of pressure at 50 Celsius. Above that the seam will come apart. Pure n-butane has a vapour pressure of 5 atm at 50C so it's fine. Even at 80C the vapour pressure of butane is only 10 atm. Propane, on the other hand, reaches 5 atmospheres at only 1.4C, and quickly climbs to 10 atm at 26.9C. Loading an EN417 with pure propane is definitely not recommended, as it would blow around 30C. Mixtures of butane/propane fall in between.
In theory there is no need to leave a vapour space in the canister. You should be able to fill right to the top if you are confident in the exact composition of the product. In the propane industry practice is to limit fill to 80% capacity. That's because the specification allows up to 2% ethane, which has a very high vapour pressure.
I decided to verify. The empty canister weights 101 g, which means I loaded it with 113 g of butane. The specific gravity of butane is roughly 0.6, so that equates to 188 ml. I measured the full volume of the canister by water displacement, and it's approximately 250 ml, which is 72% (give or take).
I think your comment on gravity is correct. A fluid is a fluid, and that would definitely be the case with water. I thought about equalization in the video because I was holding the assembly horizontally. I love these chats, and I absolutely knew you'd comment once you saw this video. Cheers my friend.
Thanks for the video. If you know the mix is 20% propane to 80% butane, do you think there is any issue with using the propane adapter to fill the 20% first of the total with the green propane canister and then the 80% butane?
I did that but I have red that 80% butane should go first and than 20% propane. Even just 20% propane portion alone may/will burst a can
Dangerous and not worth the risk. Leep propane away from butane canisters. Never fill the butane canister with propane.
You don't have to go into Chinatown. Here in Calgary stores like T&T carry them... most Asian stores do. I really like even the standard portable butane stove for car camping. Cheap light fuel and the stove is light too. I also have a adapter so I can use a pocket stove that rests on the ground with a butane tank. Handy stuff!!!
Thanks for the tip Tobi. It's much appreciated. I love visiting T&T, they have such amazing variety of foods. If you watched a few of my buddy Chef Evan's videos, you'll see gourmet meals that he prepared for us on the trail, and many of his ingredients come from T7T and other Asian stores. Chef makes a Korean BBQ sauce from scratch that's out of this world. Cheers.
I worked at the Kaybob plant in Fox Creek, Alberta, from 1991-1995.
Nice to see an expert do this - most reassuring
You make a good point at the end re the number of uses that I haven't seen elsewhere, namely "Each canister should only be refilled 3-4 times. After that the seal can become compromised."
I assume one can get these seals although I suspect they might need to be a certain material and not common O rings from a general hardware
Have you any thoughts on this?
It's not a simple o-ring. It's a check valve. I would't risk replacing it. Just get used canisters at your recycle depot. Ours has a whole section of propane and butane canisters that people drop off.
Thanks for replying and clarifying. Is that valve intended to prevent over-filling by the way? I only ask as I have never heard mention of that valve in all the videos about refilling these cannisters. I'm sure hoping that you say yes as that would relieve the stress of over-filling and hassle of having to degas if you did. Would that be the case?
@@tuberider1171 No. It's an internal check valve designed to keep the butane from escaping when the stove is removed. When you scrw in the stove it pushes on the valve.
@@Martyupnorth hey .. well that makes sense. Many thanks for all your information .. of all of the RUclips videos posted yours is my go to for information
By the way. Have you ever refilled to the MSR %, i.e. with Butane 80% and 20% Propane?
@@Martyupnorth
I thought it also meant how it's held together and maintains it's shape, ie, the seam running down the side and around the bottom?
Excellent video! Thanks! How do you call that adapter? I will try to find it online.
Nice video and I see you have what I call a dis to dat(adapters) you actually have 2 dis to dats. I’m a mechanic and when I need fittings and go to our parts department I give them 2 different fittings and tell them I need a dis to dat… thanks for video
Crown Outdoor & Tactical (Inglewood) had those small MSR canisters last time I was there.
Good video. So, Theoretically, if you can fill that butane canister with roughly 60-70 grams of butane, could you fill it first with 5 - 10 grams of propane THEN fill the rest with butane and make a winter mixture... theoretically?
I just bought a half dozen adapters off Amazon and am getting into gas fuelled products to use in relation with my wood, briquettes, electrical fuelled etc. setup for variety.
Thank you in advance. =)
You are correct. You can make your own winter mix. Start with the butane, and add the propane. I don't think you would be able to do it the othe way around because the vapor pressure of propane is much higher. Let us know how that turns out.
@@Martyupnorth Awesome, thank you for the heads up, it'll be a while but I'll try to remember to report back, have an awesome day! =D
Hi Marty, thanks for sharing the video, it inspired me a lot, it's the best video on this topic I've ever seen on youtube.
I have a question when using butane fuel, is the product of pure butane combustion the same as that of a mixture of isobutane and propane? MSR reactor stove recommends using their canister as the only fuel. Will butane combustion lead to more carbon deposition, especially in porous media combustion, which will lead to stove plug?
Which is the cleaner fuel?
I would appreciate it if you could take the time to answer this question.
Take care. Tevin.
Great question. Generally speaking, the products of combustion for any fuel are always water and carbon dioxide. As you suggest, for that to happen, the ratio of fuel to air has to be optimum. It also depends on the elevation. The soot/carbon deposit/plugging occurs when there isn't enough air. In this case the fuels are virtually identical. The blend when you buy the canisters is 80% butane/20% propane. The refill is 100% butane. In summer you won't notice any difference. In winter you will, but it will manifest itself as a lazy flame. A good test is to check the bottom of you pot or pan. If it's clean, then so will you burner. Cheers.
Thank you for taking the time to help me figure this out, it's very clear now, and wish you all the best.😀
Interesting video, thanks Marty! Also, you DO have a lot of bananas haha ,D
Yes I do!
Great video Marty
What would happen if you chill both below 0.4 C and just let the liquid butane drip down to the lower canister? Or are the valves too restrictive for the liquid?
That should work fine.
Can you provide a link to the adapter on Amazon please?
Here's one like the model I used in the video. www.amazon.ca/Adapter-Filling-Canister-Backpacking-Camping/dp/B08CBGXQQK/ref=rtpb_7?pd_rd_w=gRAK9&pf_rd_p=164a4ce0-05d6-485d-91f8-34f2925e3c30&pf_rd_r=2GSWQDY63RQ5BZPE7QPM&pd_rd_r=2f499c31-a3be-4e54-8e69-ea6e833a6768&pd_rd_wg=ch4Gp&pd_rd_i=B08CBGXQQK&psc=1
This one is cheaper, but should work as well. It just doesn't have a valve, so a little riskier. www.amazon.ca/Adapter-Filling-Canister-Backpacking-Camping/dp/B08CBGXQQK/ref=rtpb_7?pd_rd_w=gRAK9&pf_rd_p=164a4ce0-05d6-485d-91f8-34f2925e3c30&pf_rd_r=2GSWQDY63RQ5BZPE7QPM&pd_rd_r=2f499c31-a3be-4e54-8e69-ea6e833a6768&pd_rd_wg=ch4Gp&pd_rd_i=B08CBGXQQK&psc=1
Just search for words like "Adapter Gas Refill Butane Canister" and something should show up.
why refil instead of using the full one i dont understand can you please answer me that im confused
The full butane bottle is too flimsy for backcountry use. It also has a cheap valve that is easily damaged and could accidentally release all the content. The big bottles are designed for home use, and basically have to be stored upright. The little canisters are rugged, safer and can be just tossed inside a backpack.
@@Martyupnorth thank you for taking the time to answer me ,
Thank you fella. What are the potential dangers of doing this? Is there anything to be weary off?
If you grossly overfill, the cartridge will vent if the ambient temperature gets too hot. You’d have to overfill by probably 50% before that happens.
Great tips ! Thank You !
Glad it was helpful!
I have the orange adapter for the butane to the vertical cans and i would be careful with using it right on a stove even one that is a remote stove with a "rat tail" as i have had them leak and that's just asking for problems in the wrong circumstances. I only use them to refill now.
I agree. The large bottles are designed for home use. They're too fragile for backcountry use. It would be so easy to puncture one accidentally.
@@Martyupnorth Also some of the adapters like the orange one have bad tolerances on the fitting and can leak through the fitting as well which is also a problem at times. It's all made in Chy-Na soooooooo .... lol
Very helpful indeed
Glad you think so!
Great video! Thank you
Glad you liked it!
Why don't you screw all the adaptors together and then weigh them seperately from the cannister to be filled. Add this to the weight of the receptor canister. That way you can do your fill by disconnecting the supply canister only to creep up on say 180 gm of fuel, or whatever you decide you need in your refilled canister without having to screw and unscrew everything several times.
Sometimes when I'm filming, I forget the obvious.
Marty this is gold LOL
We call oil "black gold". Cheers.
Haven’t checked in for a while. Looks like I’ve got a bit of catching up to do!
Can you fill this Canister with propane ?
No. The vapor pressure of propane is much higher than butane.
@@Martyupnorth Uffff thanks, is there a propane canister that i can refill. not the coleman bottle, but something like the MSR canister but in propane ?
@@TheStryderPrime Not to my knowledge. Propane is cheaper as a fuel, but more dangerous to store. It has a high vapor pressure, so that's why the Coleman tanks are so heavy. If you filled a small cartride with propane, it would rupture if the temperature got above 10-15C because the propane would "boil". Don't risk it.
@@Martyupnorth PERFECT !! thanks so much for your time, ill go for propane for base camp and isobutane for BACKPACKING !!!!
@@TheStryderPrime I did refill my Gas Torch canister with propane.
The Canister was about 30% filled, and i added some propane to it but i was using a Pressure gauge to make shure that i do not exeed the pressure inside the can.
Winter gas mixture has a pressure around 3,5 - 4,5 Bar at 20°C and 4-5 Bar at 25°C
I was only abe to get it to 3/4 full and was already over normal pressure.
I did refill in little steps and keep looking at the Pressure.
Now i have about 5,5 Bar 25°C
Also its easy to overfill a little canister with a propane tank, also dangerous, nobody want to be near a can with like 200g propane pop...
Now i have to keep the can colder than normal, because the vapor pressure is now a good amount higher than normal.
It would not survive the 50°C pressure test anymore, so its not possibile to transport insite my car in the summer.
That is okay in my case, because i use it only for my gas torch.
Next time i will fist add butane (if its empty) then the propane :-)
@martyupnorth care to chat elk with an elk noob? I saw your vid and would love to pick your brain a bit. Thanks!
Send me a e-mail at martinbelanger2015@gmail.com. I'll share my phone and we can have a chat. It's harder and harder to get drawn for elk. I usually hunt in 404, along the Highwood River. Took two 6x6 trophy from there in the last decade.
I wish I knew they could be refilled, I have about 25 or 30 empty and partially full ones.
The partial ones were always the worse. How many times have you ever taken two half tanks on a trip? Cheers.
@@Martyupnorth Exactly, too full to toss out and too empty to justify taking up space in your backpack. And I already have a hard time figuring out what should stay and what should go and getting it all to fit, especially on longer trips, and I have very large volume backpacks...so I need less challenges when it comes to gear and stay or go choices!
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Just put a converter on stove and use can butane
Some people want the 110g canister filled for their Jetboil stoves, they nest nicely in the pot. Butane cans are too tall for some users, but yes, an adapter works too, I use one myself for a Trangia burner.
The wide base of the MSR can is more stable.
I wouldn't feel safe carrying one of those flimsy cans of butane in my pack. Walls are too twin, and the nozzle is too easy to squeeze.
It is not legal to refill and use iso butane canister in canada one of the camping store salesman told me
Of course he'll tell you that., he wants to sell you a new one for 4x the cost. But, there might be some truth to his statement. As a business owner he's not allowed to sell you a refilled canister, just like he's not allowed to sell you a refilled tube of tooth paste. I'm a private citizen, and as far as I'm concerned it's no body's business if I refill a canister.
@@Martyupnorth Indeed. I replace them every couple of years after so many refills just to avoid rusting and whatnot. No issues so far. Same with the green propane bottles. I just make sure that its got the same amount of weight as the original amount so that its not over-pressurized. Also best to always check them out before heading out there to see if they are leaking in the valve of the bottle and replace as needed. If you hear hissing and or smell when shaking it that's a sure sign :) Whats funny is they don't recycle the butane in those canisters if there is any left but they sure as hell get back the propane from the green ones which is why they take them back at most depots. I wouldn't be surpirsed to learn one day that some outfill somewhere is collecting them and refursbishing them are turning them back to service (the green propane bottles i mean).
@@draekko_ I've been to a few countries where refilled ones (the 1 litre propane bottles) are delivered to people's homes every day because they have no other means of cooking. Some third-world countries take recycling and reusing to a whole new level.
so long time back I order adapter for same purpose but never used it coz i was worried about that illegal issie🤣🤣🤣🤣
Shhh....I occasionally exceed the speed limit. I keep my eye pealed for the highway patrol and I'm extra alert for other vehicles when breaking the law.😁
Excellent video sir.please send me one on payment.
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