@@jacbox3889 thank you! Found it here. I was 15 years old then. Man I wish I had understood this more then. So grateful to repent of iniquities inherited from cultural teachings and teach my kiddo correctly. ruclips.net/video/jAsNMWwRXvs/видео.htmlsi=LgAdvkuN3Xm1EgES
I can’t tell you how much I appreciate your scholarship on this issue! I found your video because this has nagged at me for some time and I was trying to understand why people assume Moses was a polygamist, if there was something I had missed. Your research and understanding is a powerful example of why we will never reach the correct and true understanding of polygamy until righteous women study and proclaim what is obvious to us. We just see things differently than men! And we will not be able to understand true doctrine without both perspectives. I very much look forward to watching the other videos you have made. Thank you again.
I’m kind of stewing about how 6 men are listed by name in D&C 132, and 2 of them were specifically condemned by the Lord in Jacob 2, Another 2 have no scriptural evidence of having more than one wife, and the last 2 had extraordinary circumstances in regard to their other wives. Not quite the law for “all” it was sold as by the leaders in 1852 conference. I appreciate your focus on discovering truth so I don’t go (too far) down the path of judging early leaders of the church.
Josephus in his writings (2.10.2) shows that Moses, as a General of Egypt, married an Ethiopian princess to end a war. He is tells a detailed story about it. He then confirms the other marriage in Midian.
@@cid9953 Yes, also in apocryphal scripture, in the book of Jasher As a young man, Moses went to Africa when he was exiled from Egypt. He gained admiration and favor with the Ethiopians to the point that he was asked to be their king when their king had died. They offered the Ethiopian queen to be his wife. According to the account he did not live with her as a wife(no relations) because of the covenants and teachings of God and his father's. Not to marry outside of the covenant. This woman, the Ethiopian queen was the "wife" that Miriam was upset about. It was not Ziphorah. He was only "married" to the Ethiopian woman during his reign in Africa for many years and until the queen asked Moses to step down because her biological son, who was the son of the deceased king came to age and was able to rule as king. As the story goes the Ethiopians gave many gifts to Moses because of their great love and admiration for him and sent him on his way. When he left he headed for Midian where he met Ziphorah and married her and had his two sons with her.
Or not, Her scholarship is poor. Josephus in his writings (2.10.2) shows that Moses, as a General of Egypt, married an Ethiopian princess to end a war. He is tells a detailed story about it. He then confirms the other marriage in Midian. There are two ancient witnesses and one modern. It is sure.
@@cid9953 She hasn't claimed to be infallible. Quite the opposite. Even if she were to get something wrong...that doesn't change that she is genuine. Josephus. Ahhhh...Josephus. Apparently you believe the words of Josephus are canon? If he said it...its 100% right take it to the bank true?! Might want to spend a little time looking into who funded Josephus' record...the motives of the people who kept it and could have altered it...etc. Josephus is interesting for sure...but to be taken for a grain of salt compared to scripture (which also has its issues).
I really appreciated this episode. It never made sense to me before where this Ethiopian wife came from. It was like she had appeared out of nowhere. I wondered if Zipporah had died! And then I found out that Moses was supposedly a polygamist, and it didn’t make sense to me because there is no story of him having multiple wives in the Bible.
Polygamy was not practiced by ancient Egyptians, who had a fairly modern, egalitarian approach to marriage. Moses would not typically have been exposed to the idea of polygamy, unless there were some kingly, duty or obligation to unite through marriage with a neighboring kingdom to avoid war.
I mentioned parallel structure in a comment two episodes ago, so I'm happy to hear you mention it here in this episode! Understanding Israelite writing style is crucial to having the best interpretation of the scriptures, both in the Bible and the BoM!
Wow! This was informative! I enjoyed this episode very much. Your enthusiasm for truth is contagious! I have to be honest though: that listening to these episodes had been a bit of an emotional rollercoaster for me. Polygamy has been an extremely painful teaching for me. Listening to you share your research (of which you use excellent sources) as well as reading the comments of those who don't share your same conclusions is really causing me to ponder more about the doctrines of the church. I'm wrestling with it, and though it is difficult, I feel like I'm finally starting to think a little deeper, rather than just accepting what I was taught. I'm also praying for you as you prepare and present your research. You have dared to go where I could not bring myself to go. Thank you for your courage.
Her scholarship is poor. Josephus in his writings (2.10.2) shows that Moses, as a General of Egypt, married an Ethiopian princess to end a war. He is tells a detailed story about it. He then confirms the other marriage in Midian. There are two ancient witnesses and one modern. It is sure.
@@cid9953 yes, thank you for bringing this up I recently learned of the possibility that Moses was married to a princess or queen in addition to Zipporah. However, from looking into it, it appears that the marriage was never actually consummated. I guess we can't know for sure.
@@elizabethh9764 LOL! How ignorant your comment is. You did not look into it very far, as Josephus records the consummation in his record: “No sooner was the agreement made, but it took effect immediately: and when Moses had cut off the Ethiopians, he gave thanks to God, and consummated his marriage, and led the Egyptians back to their own land.” Just the same, who records the consummation of their marriage? As if that were any proof that the marriage was transient; you are grasping at straws. As the host points out, years later Moses’ brother and sister bring up the marriage as an accusation against him. Surely, it was still relevant at that time; at least, I have more evidence suggesting that it was current then you do that it was not a significant event in Moses' life. Only persons seeking a particular history have a hard time believing that Moses was a polygamist. That's all this channel is; an attempt to rewrite history according to one's own desire.
@@cid9953 Thanks for sharing. I'm really curious to know in all your research and understanding if Moses was married to both the Ethiopian princess and Zipporah at the same time? I'd be interested to hear your take on this if you have a minute to share your insight. Oh, and I did find the source for my previous comment. I should have included it. I can share the quote and reference if you're interested in taking a look at it. Thanks again for engaging.
It makes perfect sense that Moses had only one wife, for he taught: “Neither shall he [or any man or King…this includes Abraham, Jacob, King Solomon and King David, Brigham Young and all those who got lured away into the false security of polygamy and added] multiply wives to himself, that his heart… turn…away…from the commandment…keep all the words of this law.” (Old Testament | Deuteronomy 17:14-20). What do you think the Lord was referring to when he said to “remember” the Book of Mormon [Do you think that includes (Jacob 1, 2: 24-30 and 3 having “one wife”) and “remember” the “former commandments;” do you think that includes…(Deuteronomy 17: 14-20) “Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart…turn…away…from the commandment…[to] keep all the words of this law” and (D&C 49: 15-17 having “one wife”) and “remember” the “new covenant” (Jeremiah 31: 31-33; Hebrews 8: 7-13; 12: 24; D&C 76: 62-70; 84: 57; 107:19; Lectures on Faith 7:15-17)]. The answer is obvious; the eternal pattern is to have only one wife! The “whole church” today is still “under condemnation” until it repents of “bearing false witness,” that the Prophet Joseph Smith was a polygamist and remove D&C 132 and put D&C 101 of 1835 back in, along with Lectures on Faith as it was when Joseph was here…this is a simple thing to do! To “repent” and become the true “Children of Christ” (Mosiah 5:7-10). What is there to be ashamed of that we can’t repent of of past mistakes. unless pride follows us individually or collectively as a Church to the grave and beyond. You shared some wonderful insights with this episode 10. Thank you!
Josephus in his writings (2.10.2) shows that Moses, as a General of Egypt, married an Ethiopian princess to end a war. He is tells a detailed story about it. He then confirms the other marriage in Midian.
@@cid9953 yes but he didn't consumate the marriage according to the book of Jasher nor did he live with both women at the same time. He had no children with the Ethiopian queen, Adoniah. He left her then married Zipphorah.
So good!! Such great insights and research. When I have questions that I take to the Lord, He always tells me to dig deeper instead of just following the mainstream or the accepted societal view. And wow, has that journey been INCREDIBLE. The Lord will always take us deeper when we desire and when we are ready for more.
Her scholarship is poor. Josephus in his writings (2.10.2) shows that Moses, as a General of Egypt, married an Ethiopian princess to end a war. He is tells a detailed story about it. He then confirms the other marriage in Midian. There are two ancient witnesses and one modern. It is sure.
Interesting that Miriam was 'put out of camp' for a entire week. Exiled for her skin condition. Isn't that how God helps us learn our lessons? The minute we judge others, boy look out! Here it comes. We are challenged in life with the exact lesson. Reminds of the meme, 'Soon as you say "My child would never" Here they come, nevering like they never nevered before!'
The ethnicity issue might also be why Jethro wanted to leave and go back to his people... when his daughter was also sent back possibly for this same cause... I don't believe they were separate issues..
Her scholarship is poor. Josephus in his writings (2.10.2) shows that Moses, as a General of Egypt, married an Ethiopian princess to end a war. He is tells a detailed story about it. He then confirms the other marriage in Midian. There are two ancient witnesses and one modern. It is sure.
Moses went to great lengths to prevent his becoming a king or Pharoah, and to prevent there being a Mosaic 'dynasty' after him. That explains why he gave the priesthood to his brother Aaron (instead of keeping it for himself and his sons), and it also explains why Moses completely disenfranchised the Levites (his own family) when he denied them any inheritance in the land -- shocking! He is like George Washington in a way (GW never had any children who might succeed him).
One more thing... when the Israelites were made captives of Babylon, all the records of the people were destroyed and while in Babylon they made new records... so they changed some things according to their own agendas... as we know there were no Pharisee or Saducee or Talmud etc.. before this captivity
You brought of some good points. But I don't find the link between Midian and Lush/Ethiopia to be very convincing. Also the Numbers 12 text goes out of it's way to twice emphasize that Moses had married the Ethiopian woman. That seems out of place if she was already his wife for decades. But even if the Ethiopian woman was a different wife, there isn't really any proof that Moses was married to them at the same time. The text is just too ambiguous. I think the best we can say is that Moses was at one point monogamous and may or may not have been polygamous at another point.
Hi Michael, thanks for engaging. I understand your thoughts but I see it very differently. Moses and Zipporah may have been married for decades, but the Israelites were not necessarily aware of that. We don't know exactly how or when Moses sent his wife and sons away, but it seems to have been quite early on -- before his encounters with Pharaoh and in Egypt, and certainly before he led the children of Israel out of Egypt. Jethro, on his own accord, as a wise man/prophet and mentor to his son in law brought her back, as is discussed in Exodus 18 and Numbers 10. The accusation and disapproval of his wife comes right after that. It seems very clear to me. If there were no disapproval of his wife, why would he send her away? If "the Ethiopian" were a different wife, why would Aaron and Miriam be so incensed about Moses's marriage to her, and yet not have a problem with his marriage to a Midianite? Where is a single shred of evidence of a second marriage? If Zipporah were dead and this were a second marriage, why would Jethro come back a second time and again give advice? (It seems so clear to me that these are two accounts of the same visit when Jethro brought his daughter and grandsons back to Moses -- clearly disapproving of Moses's willingness to send them away.) There are so many more pieces that all go together to make the case. I appreciate that others see it differently, it is just so clear to me that it is hard to understand why.
Her scholarship is poor. Josephus in his writings (2.10.2) shows that Moses, as a General of Egypt, married an Ethiopian princess to end a war. He is tells a detailed story about it. He then confirms the other marriage in Midian. There are two ancient witnesses and one modern. It is sure.
@@cid9953 LOL, thanks for the feedback. Here are some questions: What sources did Josephus use to support his biography of Moses in 2.9 and 2.10? Moses lived perhaps 1500 years before Josephus (we don't know the exact dates) so he couldn't have firsthand information, and we have no insight of what records he may have had access to or how accurate they may have been. It is most likely that his only source of Moses' life was, like ours, the Torah. There were not likely any other records. It is entirely possible that his ancient history of Moses was historical fiction, expanding on the obscure verse about his Ethiopian wife. But, far more important, the events described occurred before Moses left Egypt. Tharbis, the Ethiopian princess, would have been his first wife, who he married while still the prince of Egypt. Please explain why Miriam and Aaron would be just fine meeting Moses when he came back to Egypt and working with him and sustaining him as a prophet, but then suddenly, out of the blue, decided that his first marriage, which would have occurred decades before, was a deal breaker for them. There are so many other significant problems with this idea, but for now, I'll leave it at that. Needless to say, I'm not terribly impressed with your scholarship.
Can you do a video on the law of moses and why it seemingly allows multiple wives? There's such little subject matter, and polygamy is never addressed head on. I would guess that if it's in the law of moses the Jews would be practicing it today, but it's not mainstream to my knowledge Deuteronomy 21:13-17 Deuteronomy 25:5-12 Exodus 21:1-11 Deuteronomy 21:15-17 Deuteronomy 17:14-20
If one believes that God loves both his sons and his daughters, then polygamy cannot be of God. Period. This is because it hurts women; and it also hurts men because it makes impossible a truly loving and romantic union which I know is eternal and the way God lives. Celestial marriages are not a group thing and can't be. It's impossible. I also come from polygamist early church ancestry and I can also say that the ancestors I know of who lived it---it was so sad and no one was happy. Besides which, it was never legal. There is no way I believe Joseph Smith lived that way. His own words loudly say otherwise. Sadly, we are still practicing a version of it today by men whose wives have died and the man takes another wife and has her sealed to him. The wife who died gets zero say in it. If one believes in polygamy, one must then believe that men are superior and God really doesn't love his daughters much and Jacob 2 is just meaningless somehow.Which I know it isn't. So I don't think Moses lived polygamy. Thanks Michelle for your in-depth study and willingness to put up with mean and rude people sometimes:)
The change of name Jethro, also called Reuel, or Hobab were probably due to which language people used... same with the identity of Moses' wife... midianite, etheopean ..et..
I think it was both Jethro and the Lord. I think Moses received good counsel from a good leader, felt Jethro was right, then went to the Lord for confirmation and the Lord revealed to Moses the truth of what Jethro stated and what Moses had learned. We should all do the same- receive good counsel and seek confirmation from the Lord. Next, is the translation differences confirming "as far as it is translated correctly." Side note that Moses received the Melchizedek from Jethro (DC 84:6) and Ethiopian/Kush(as you mentioned means black) further showing the concept of blacks and the priesthood.
Her scholarship is poor. Josephus in his writings (2.10.2) shows that Moses, as a General of Egypt, married an Ethiopian princess to end a war. He is tells a detailed story about it. He then confirms the other marriage in Midian. There are two ancient witnesses and one modern. It is sure.
Her scholarship is poor. Josephus in his writings (2.10.2) shows that Moses, as a General of Egypt, married an Ethiopian princess to end a war. He is tells a detailed story about it. He then confirms the other marriage in Midian. There are two ancient witnesses and one modern. It is sure.
Polygamy was mandated and even sanctioned by the Law of Moses. Levirate Marriage practices are outlined in Deuteronomy 25:5-6. The Practice of Levirate marriage did not make any conditions on whether or not the brother-in-law was married. The scripture reads: 5If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of a husband's brother unto her. 6 And it shall be, that the firstborn which she beareth shall succeed in the name of his brother which is dead, that his name be not put out of Israel. If the brother of the deceased was already married, it did not relieve him from the responsibility of the law, he was required to marry the widow of his brother in order to raise up seed unto him "that his name be not put out of Israel" The widow with no children, upon the death of her husband, was automatically considered to be betrothed, or engaged,, to the next brother in the family of her now deceased husband. This practice was not just a custom, but an integral part of the religious law at the time of Jesus. Ancient Israel was fervent in keeping the Law of Moses.
Thank you for engaging. I'm trying to understand how you see that particular scripture as relevant. Are you saying that Moses was a polygamist? And if so, did he have a brother that died to cause his polygamy? Are you saying this scripture shows that polygamy is of God and is an eternal doctrine necessary for exaltation? To me, that would be quite a stretch. I also wonder how we should prioritize scriptures, especially when they contradict. The Law of Moses is a big hairy complicated mess that none of us really understand. Deuteronomy 17:17 says men should not multiply wives. Leviticus 18:16 prohibits marrying your brother's wife, directly contradicting 25:5-6. It is likely that the reason for 25:5-6 is that wives were considered the property of the family and were not allowed to marry outside the family. Also non virgins were often not considered eligible for marriage, which is very sad. I am so grateful we don't still have all of these sexist and unfair rules which cause so many problems and required strange solutions. In general, I think we are much better off looking to the far clearer and more loving teachings of Christ and the Book of Mormon. Both require that widows be cared for, and none require that the women marry anyone (in other words, be forced to prostitute themselves0) in order to be taken care of. Mosiah 21 is a great example. Verse 10 "Now there were a great many widows in the land, and they did cry mightily from day to day, for a great fear of the Lamanites had come upon them." Verse 21 "17 Now there was a great number of women, more than there was of men; therefore king Limhi commanded that every man should impart to the support of the widows and their children, that they might not perish with hunger; and this they did because of the greatness of their number that had been slain." James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. When we try to use cherry picked snippets from the overwhelmingly complex and ill understood law of Moses (which was a lower low) to try to support strange claims of what is supposed to be a much much higher law, we are on very shaky ground.
I once considered Levirate marriage as an exception to monogamy, too, until I researched it more. While the scriptures don’t explicitly make an exception for already-married brothers in Levirate marriage, there is also no evidence to support that they were required to take on the widow even if they were married. Even modern rabbis who have studied the Mosaic law their whole lives are hesitant to say a word about it because there is not enough evidence or precedent.
How poor your supposition is. Could it be possible, having referred to Josephus, that you are unaware of the absolutely strong support Josephus is to the idea that Moses had multiple wives? Josephus in his writings (2.10.2) shows that Moses, as a General of Egypt, married an Ethiopian princess to end a war. He is tells a detailed story about it. He then confirms the other marriage in Midian. After speaking with so many apologists and others, this is the first time you are informed of this? Now it doesn't matter how you try to twist the scriptures, Moses was married to an Ethiopian woman while in Egypt, and then Marries a Midianite woman in exile. There are two ancient witnesses, and a stronger modern third. That means there are two wives. It doesn’t matter that there were no children by one marriage, not all women bear. But it is sure, Moses was a polygamist. Miriam, like you, had a problem with it and was struck leprose. Be more careful! There are two reliable sources; Three, including the word of God Himself in Sec. 132.
Here are some questions: What sources did Josephus use to support his biography of Moses in 2.9 and 2.10? Moses lived perhaps 1500 years before Josephus (we don't know the exact dates) so he couldn't have firsthand information, and we have no insight of what records he may have had access to or how accurate they may have been. It is most likely that his only source of Moses' life was, like ours, the Torah. There were not likely any other records. It is entirely possible that his ancient history of Moses was historical fiction, expanding on the obscure verse about his Ethiopian wife. Also, the events described would have occurred before Moses left Egypt. Tharbis, the Ethiopian princess, would have been his first wife, who he married while still the prince of Egypt. It is very strange that this important royal marriage would be left out of the record. But far more important, please explain why Miriam and Aaron would be just fine meeting Moses when he came back to Egypt and working with him and sustaining him as a prophet, but then suddenly, out of the blue, one day in the desert, decided that his first marriage, which would have occurred decades before, was a deal breaker for them. You really need to explain this huge problem if you want to support your claim. I will be curious to hear your thoughts. There are so many other significant problems with this idea, but for now, I'll leave it at that.
@@MichelleBStoneI know that Christ quotes scriptures that are not in the Bible. Josephus lived near the same time and likely had access to the same records. How quick you are to judge the resources of a guy who lived about 1900 years before you, and yet you don’t see the direct hypocrisy in doing so. In your vid, you reference Josephus as if he is a quality source, yet now you attempt to degrade his quality. His quality is much enhanced when it easily conforms to inspired writings, as in this case. The issue I wished to expose is that you claim the Bible is the only source that Moses had multiple wives, knowing full well Josephus supports and reinforces the Bible story as it is written. You knew there is a second ancient source, yet you lie and say the Bible is the only one. Whether I am a scholar or not is irrelevant. I did not claim to be, you did. I did not claim "this one scripture is the ONLY source...", you did. You lied and knowingly did so. It is apparent that you were aware of this record, as you have a quick and ready answer for it. Your intent is not to enlighten, but darken the minds of people. You are as the fouls of the air in the parable of the sower and as the scribes and pharisees of Matt 23 (vs. 13&27). I have clearly torn down your lies, those who listen to you will have the opportunity to read my words and be reminded of the truth and see you for what you are. The Sheep’s clothing is removed and we see a naked wolf. They are still free to follow you, but they also have the chance to be better informed.
@@cid9953 Wow, feeling rather grandiose, aren't you. That was amusing. To answer your accusation, no, I hadn't heard this claim. Even after all the years of interacting with polygamy apologists nobody has brought up this passage of Josephus until now (perhaps because Moses wasn't a central topic of discussion.) So, thank you. I very much appreciate the additional reference. I didn't even see it in Ogden Kraut's awful book, "Polygamy and that Bible," which will be a future episode. However, as seems to usually be the case with claims of polygamists, it took about 15 minutes to find it, read it, and see the insurmountable problems with it. I find it interesting that instead of responding to those problems, you instead chose to insult and condemn me. Fascinating how that happens LOL Again, if you want to make the claim that Moses was a polygamist, and that Josephus proves it, please explain the following: Why was there no record of the marriage between Moses, the Prince of Egypt and the Princess of Ethiopia -- especially when it ended a war, and when so much is said about Moses's marriage to Zipporah? When Moses fled, what happened to Tharbis? Unless he took her with him (which it is clear he didn't) it was a clear case of abandonment, which would mean that Moses would be, at most, a serial monogamist, not a polygamist. Those are different things. Third, and by far most critical, why in the world would Miriam and Aaron suddenly, out of the blue, decide that a marriage they had no problem with whatsoever and that occurred decades before and was for all intents dissolved, was now a central issue that disqualified Moses from his position? And why would their sudden disapproval coincide perfectly with Jethro bringing Zipporah and their sons back to Moses? Can you see how impossible this is? This claim is so illogical it defies reason. But it is a good illustration of how desperate polygamists are to justify their extremely weak claims. I find it astounding that you put so much effort into claiming Moses had two wives, as if that would prove anything anyway. Where was Moses commanded to take multiple wives? Where did he command the people to take multiple wives? Where did he teach that it was the means of exaltation? Or that it was necessary to fulfill the Abrahamic covenant? Or anything else that latter-day polygamists claimed? There is not good reason to believe that Moses was a polygamist, and your claims reveal your lack of logic and rather desperate motivated reasoning. But beyond that, even if Moses were a polygamist, which he wasn't, you still would have SO MANY insurmountable problems with your theology that only keeping people in spiritual blindness (which you do) would ever convince them that it was correct.
@@MichelleBStone LOL extremely weak claims? Here are my claims: 1) Christ; 2) Joseph Smith; and 3) you: Joseph Smith - a prophet, whom you (by virtue of your membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and quoting his other revelations, etc.) testify is a prophet, received a revelation in which the Lord told him Moses was a polygamist; 4) The Bible says he was; 5) Josephus says he was; and, 6) My own testimony through revelation. You think you have anything close to these? “What greater witness can you have then from God” (D&C 6:23)? I have even you as a witness; while you have vain imaginations. I can imagine details and context that would answer your questions. These would be projections and prove no more than your postulations do. Most of your questions stem from your imagined context. There are many things that do not make sense or are difficult to understand, this in no way diminishes their truthfulness. When Nephi encountered them he inquired of the Lord; while others talked among their ignorant selves (1Nephi 10&11 & 15:3&8-11). That we do not have details is no proof that something did or did not happen. At times it is very difficult to be sure of timing, causation, and sequence in the scriptures. Seeking revelation, as Joseph did (Sec. 132), is a better answer than making things up. If this is the first time you heard about Josephus’ account, perhaps you are way to quick to dismiss it because of the faulty context you have built up on the subject. What other details have you missed in your over-eagerness to disprove polygamy? The records are sound, confirmatory, and are clearly against your imaginative narrative. You should at least edit your video now and include Josephus’ account. The vid is currently lying. Multiple times I have had hard questions. I have inquired of the Lord and received revelations. I know revelation is a true principle and I recommend it as the solution to all struggling on this or other topics (Moroni 10:3-5). I am talking about God speaking to man and explaining things, not inspiration or simply having good feelings. Through revelation I know God lives, I know He loves me and all people. I know Christ is our Savior and more. I know that the Book of Mormon is true and that Joseph Smith was a true prophet. Section 132 is a true revelation given to a true prophet. This does not mean that people understand it well (you and other members of the church say things that suggest misunderstanding). It does mean eternal marriage is a true principle, polygamy is instituted at times by God, and the prophets mentioned were polygamists. I have no further interest in supporting your channel, even to offer a voice of reason. The gutter is not the place to disseminate truth.
@@cid9953 First, I am not able to edit the video -- It seems you know very little about podcasting. I can potentially make a new short video about it, and in the meantime, I hope people will engage in the comments and read what you have said. The evidence that 132 was from Joseph Smith is deeply problematic. You have to take a LOT of things on faith, and trust statements from people who repeated proved themselves untrustworthy. The Bible does not teach that Moses was a polygamist -- quite the opposite. You are entitled to your revelation. I recommend watching the episode 11 "Verse 1 -- Preconceptions and Concubines" for some insight into motivated reasoning and how preconceptions can affect revelation. You are deeply affected by motivated reasoning. You completely ignore anything and everything that does not support your bias and then jump all over the slightest hint of a tiny point you feel you can exploit to give yourself permission to throw out any difficultly, just to make yourself again comfortable in your false tradition. If you want to believe Moses was a polygamist, fine, go ahead. You can ignore or attempt to explain away all the facts that make that impossible or irrelevant by claiming "We don't know everything, " but it does not strengthen your claim. But, if you at all care about truth, why not also engage on the other issues? You should try to come up with counter points or explanations for the rest of the massive evidence the proves that polygamy never was of God. It is SO EASY to pick apart one simple factoid from one single podcast -- as if I should be expected or required to know every single possible thing anybody has ever said in defense of polygamy in order to speak about it. That is a requirement no scholar or expert at any level in any field could be held to. I appreciate you bringing up this piece of information. As I have always done with every piece of information on this topic, I have studied it out, honestly considered it, and found it to be very lacking. You are entitled to your revelation (motivated as it may be) and I am entitled to mine. People with no scriptural backing or other evidence to support their claims often want to get into a battle of revelation which reminds me of an elementary school playground, "My revelation can beat up your revelation!" I find that extremely unhelpful when seeking truth.
I love that Pres Hinkley condemned polygamy. Said it's not doctrinal and it is not a Church issue. That makes me happy. Thank you for your videos.
I didn't know that!
Yes, I believe it was the Larry King interview. It might have been the 60 min interview, it escapes me right now.@@sisknothinbutruth2684
Thank you! Do you have a reference for this that we can look up?
@@ashleysb3 RUclips: Pres. Gordon B Hinkley on Larry King (Full Interview). Around 12 min.
@@jacbox3889 thank you! Found it here. I was 15 years old then. Man I wish I had understood this more then. So grateful to repent of iniquities inherited from cultural teachings and teach my kiddo correctly. ruclips.net/video/jAsNMWwRXvs/видео.htmlsi=LgAdvkuN3Xm1EgES
I can’t tell you how much I appreciate your scholarship on this issue! I found your video because this has nagged at me for some time and I was trying to understand why people assume Moses was a polygamist, if there was something I had missed. Your research and understanding is a powerful example of why we will never reach the correct and true understanding of polygamy until righteous women study and proclaim what is obvious to us. We just see things differently than men! And we will not be able to understand true doctrine without both perspectives. I very much look forward to watching the other videos you have made. Thank you again.
I love your insight about women's scholarship. Thank you for this comment. I am so happy you found this!
I’m kind of stewing about how 6 men are listed by name in D&C 132, and 2 of them were specifically condemned by the Lord in Jacob 2, Another 2 have no scriptural evidence of having more than one wife, and the last 2 had extraordinary circumstances in regard to their other wives. Not quite the law for “all” it was sold as by the leaders in 1852 conference.
I appreciate your focus on discovering truth so I don’t go (too far) down the path of judging early leaders of the church.
Josephus in his writings (2.10.2) shows that Moses, as a General of Egypt, married an Ethiopian princess to end a war. He is tells a detailed story about it. He then confirms the other marriage in Midian.
@@cid9953 Yes, also in apocryphal scripture, in the book of Jasher As a young man, Moses went to Africa when he was exiled from Egypt. He gained admiration and favor with the Ethiopians to the point that he was asked to be their king when their king had died. They offered the Ethiopian queen to be his wife. According to the account he did not live with her as a wife(no relations) because of the covenants and teachings of God and his father's. Not to marry outside of the covenant. This woman, the Ethiopian queen was the "wife" that Miriam was upset about. It was not Ziphorah. He was only "married" to the Ethiopian woman during his reign in Africa for many years and until the queen asked Moses to step down because her biological son, who was the son of the deceased king came to age and was able to rule as king. As the story goes the Ethiopians gave many gifts to Moses because of their great love and admiration for him and sent him on his way. When he left he headed for Midian where he met Ziphorah and married her and had his two sons with her.
@@littleredhen3218 Woah! I'll have to look that up! It's fascinating what was left out of the Bible.
I'm over here judgin' all over the place!
@@schminckiette It's fascinating what was 'taken out' of the Bible.
I had a lot of driving over 2 days and listened to all of your videos in a row! Great work. You are transparently authentic.
Thank you. What a meaningful comment. I really appreciate that.
Or not, Her scholarship is poor. Josephus in his writings (2.10.2) shows that Moses, as a General of Egypt, married an Ethiopian princess to end a war. He is tells a detailed story about it. He then confirms the other marriage in Midian. There are two ancient witnesses and one modern. It is sure.
@@cid9953 She hasn't claimed to be infallible. Quite the opposite. Even if she were to get something wrong...that doesn't change that she is genuine.
Josephus. Ahhhh...Josephus. Apparently you believe the words of Josephus are canon? If he said it...its 100% right take it to the bank true?! Might want to spend a little time looking into who funded Josephus' record...the motives of the people who kept it and could have altered it...etc. Josephus is interesting for sure...but to be taken for a grain of salt compared to scripture (which also has its issues).
@@cid9953 Margaret Barker who is one of the translators of the Dead Sea Scrolls says that historian was an anti-christ.
I really appreciated this episode. It never made sense to me before where this Ethiopian wife came from. It was like she had appeared out of nowhere. I wondered if Zipporah had died! And then I found out that Moses was supposedly a polygamist, and it didn’t make sense to me because there is no story of him having multiple wives in the Bible.
Polygamy was not practiced by ancient Egyptians, who had a fairly modern, egalitarian approach to marriage. Moses would not typically have been exposed to the idea of polygamy, unless there were some kingly, duty or obligation to unite through marriage with a neighboring kingdom to avoid war.
Great insight. Thanks.
I mentioned parallel structure in a comment two episodes ago, so I'm happy to hear you mention it here in this episode! Understanding Israelite writing style is crucial to having the best interpretation of the scriptures, both in the Bible and the BoM!
It's also very refreshing to hear you discuss racism in the scriptures without bringing false and harmful ideas of critical theory into it
Wow! This was informative! I enjoyed this episode very much. Your enthusiasm for truth is contagious! I have to be honest though: that listening to these episodes had been a bit of an emotional rollercoaster for me. Polygamy has been an extremely painful teaching for me. Listening to you share your research (of which you use excellent sources) as well as reading the comments of those who don't share your same conclusions is really causing me to ponder more about the doctrines of the church. I'm wrestling with it, and though it is difficult, I feel like I'm finally starting to think a little deeper, rather than just accepting what I was taught.
I'm also praying for you as you prepare and present your research. You have dared to go where I could not bring myself to go. Thank you for your courage.
Her scholarship is poor. Josephus in his writings (2.10.2) shows that Moses, as a General of Egypt, married an Ethiopian princess to end a war. He is tells a detailed story about it. He then confirms the other marriage in Midian. There are two ancient witnesses and one modern. It is sure.
@@cid9953 yes, thank you for bringing this up I recently learned of the possibility that Moses was married to a princess or queen in addition to Zipporah. However, from looking into it, it appears that the marriage was never actually consummated. I guess we can't know for sure.
@@elizabethh9764 LOL! How ignorant your comment is. You did not look into it very far, as Josephus records the consummation in his record: “No sooner was the agreement made, but it took effect immediately: and when Moses had cut off the Ethiopians, he gave thanks to God, and consummated his marriage, and led the Egyptians back to their own land.”
Just the same, who records the consummation of their marriage? As if that were any proof that the marriage was transient; you are grasping at straws. As the host points out, years later Moses’ brother and sister bring up the marriage as an accusation against him. Surely, it was still relevant at that time; at least, I have more evidence suggesting that it was current then you do that it was not a significant event in Moses' life. Only persons seeking a particular history have a hard time believing that Moses was a polygamist. That's all this channel is; an attempt to rewrite history according to one's own desire.
@@cid9953 Thanks for sharing. I'm really curious to know in all your research and understanding if Moses was married to both the Ethiopian princess and Zipporah at the same time? I'd be interested to hear your take on this if you have a minute to share your insight.
Oh, and I did find the source for my previous comment. I should have included it. I can share the quote and reference if you're interested in taking a look at it. Thanks again for engaging.
@@elizabethh9764 Margaret Barker who helped translate the Dead Sea Scrolls believes Josephus was an anti-Christ.
It makes perfect sense that Moses had only one wife, for he taught:
“Neither shall he [or any man or King…this includes Abraham, Jacob, King Solomon and King David, Brigham Young and all those who got lured away into the false security of polygamy and added] multiply wives to himself, that his heart… turn…away…from the commandment…keep all the words of this law.”
(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 17:14-20).
What do you think the Lord was referring to when he said to “remember” the Book of Mormon [Do you think that includes (Jacob 1, 2: 24-30 and 3 having “one wife”) and “remember” the “former commandments;” do you think that includes…(Deuteronomy 17: 14-20) “Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart…turn…away…from the commandment…[to] keep all the words of this law” and (D&C 49: 15-17 having “one wife”) and “remember” the “new covenant” (Jeremiah 31: 31-33; Hebrews 8: 7-13; 12: 24; D&C 76: 62-70; 84: 57; 107:19; Lectures on Faith 7:15-17)].
The answer is obvious; the eternal pattern is to have only one wife! The “whole church” today is still “under condemnation” until it repents of “bearing false witness,” that the Prophet Joseph Smith was a polygamist and remove D&C 132 and put D&C 101 of 1835 back in, along with Lectures on Faith as it was when Joseph was here…this is a simple thing to do! To “repent” and become the true “Children of Christ” (Mosiah 5:7-10). What is there to be ashamed of that we can’t repent of of past mistakes. unless pride follows us individually or collectively as a Church to the grave and beyond. You shared some wonderful insights with this episode 10. Thank you!
Josephus in his writings (2.10.2) shows that Moses, as a General of Egypt, married an Ethiopian princess to end a war. He is tells a detailed story about it. He then confirms the other marriage in Midian.
@@cid9953 yes but he didn't consumate the marriage according to the book of Jasher nor did he live with both women at the same time. He had no children with the Ethiopian queen, Adoniah. He left her then married Zipphorah.
So good!! Such great insights and research. When I have questions that I take to the Lord, He always tells me to dig deeper instead of just following the mainstream or the accepted societal view. And wow, has that journey been INCREDIBLE. The Lord will always take us deeper when we desire and when we are ready for more.
Her scholarship is poor. Josephus in his writings (2.10.2) shows that Moses, as a General of Egypt, married an Ethiopian princess to end a war. He is tells a detailed story about it. He then confirms the other marriage in Midian. There are two ancient witnesses and one modern. It is sure.
Interesting that Miriam was 'put out of camp' for a entire week. Exiled for her skin condition. Isn't that how God helps us learn our lessons? The minute we judge others, boy look out! Here it comes. We are challenged in life with the exact lesson.
Reminds of the meme, 'Soon as you say "My child would never" Here they come, nevering like they never nevered before!'
The ethnicity issue might also be why Jethro wanted to leave and go back to his people... when his daughter was also sent back possibly for this same cause... I don't believe they were separate issues..
This is fascinating! Thank you for all your time and research!!! I love your knowledge and your enthusiasm.
Her scholarship is poor. Josephus in his writings (2.10.2) shows that Moses, as a General of Egypt, married an Ethiopian princess to end a war. He is tells a detailed story about it. He then confirms the other marriage in Midian. There are two ancient witnesses and one modern. It is sure.
Moses went to great lengths to prevent his becoming a king or Pharoah, and to prevent there being a Mosaic 'dynasty' after him. That explains why he gave the priesthood to his brother Aaron (instead of keeping it for himself and his sons), and it also explains why Moses completely disenfranchised the Levites (his own family) when he denied them any inheritance in the land -- shocking! He is like George Washington in a way (GW never had any children who might succeed him).
One more thing... when the Israelites were made captives of Babylon, all the records of the people were destroyed and while in Babylon they made new records... so they changed some things according to their own agendas... as we know there were no Pharisee or Saducee or Talmud etc.. before this captivity
Daniel and his friends also were known by two or three names, so this makes so much sense.
So interesting! Good work putting all of that together!
Wow! I love that you pointed out that because she was racist, she gets sent out of camp. They sent Moses's wife out!
You brought of some good points. But I don't find the link between Midian and Lush/Ethiopia to be very convincing. Also the Numbers 12 text goes out of it's way to twice emphasize that Moses had married the Ethiopian woman. That seems out of place if she was already his wife for decades. But even if the Ethiopian woman was a different wife, there isn't really any proof that Moses was married to them at the same time. The text is just too ambiguous. I think the best we can say is that Moses was at one point monogamous and may or may not have been polygamous at another point.
Hi Michael, thanks for engaging. I understand your thoughts but I see it very differently. Moses and Zipporah may have been married for decades, but the Israelites were not necessarily aware of that. We don't know exactly how or when Moses sent his wife and sons away, but it seems to have been quite early on -- before his encounters with Pharaoh and in Egypt, and certainly before he led the children of Israel out of Egypt. Jethro, on his own accord, as a wise man/prophet and mentor to his son in law brought her back, as is discussed in Exodus 18 and Numbers 10. The accusation and disapproval of his wife comes right after that. It seems very clear to me. If there were no disapproval of his wife, why would he send her away? If "the Ethiopian" were a different wife, why would Aaron and Miriam be so incensed about Moses's marriage to her, and yet not have a problem with his marriage to a Midianite? Where is a single shred of evidence of a second marriage? If Zipporah were dead and this were a second marriage, why would Jethro come back a second time and again give advice? (It seems so clear to me that these are two accounts of the same visit when Jethro brought his daughter and grandsons back to Moses -- clearly disapproving of Moses's willingness to send them away.) There are so many more pieces that all go together to make the case. I appreciate that others see it differently, it is just so clear to me that it is hard to understand why.
Her scholarship is poor. Josephus in his writings (2.10.2) shows that Moses, as a General of Egypt, married an Ethiopian princess to end a war. He is tells a detailed story about it. He then confirms the other marriage in Midian. There are two ancient witnesses and one modern. It is sure.
@@cid9953 LOL, thanks for the feedback. Here are some questions: What sources did Josephus use to support his biography of Moses in 2.9 and 2.10? Moses lived perhaps 1500 years before Josephus (we don't know the exact dates) so he couldn't have firsthand information, and we have no insight of what records he may have had access to or how accurate they may have been. It is most likely that his only source of Moses' life was, like ours, the Torah. There were not likely any other records. It is entirely possible that his ancient history of Moses was historical fiction, expanding on the obscure verse about his Ethiopian wife.
But, far more important, the events described occurred before Moses left Egypt. Tharbis, the Ethiopian princess, would have been his first wife, who he married while still the prince of Egypt. Please explain why Miriam and Aaron would be just fine meeting Moses when he came back to Egypt and working with him and sustaining him as a prophet, but then suddenly, out of the blue, decided that his first marriage, which would have occurred decades before, was a deal breaker for them. There are so many other significant problems with this idea, but for now, I'll leave it at that.
Needless to say, I'm not terribly impressed with your scholarship.
Can you do a video on the law of moses and why it seemingly allows multiple wives? There's such little subject matter, and polygamy is never addressed head on. I would guess that if it's in the law of moses the Jews would be practicing it today, but it's not mainstream to my knowledge
Deuteronomy 21:13-17 Deuteronomy 25:5-12 Exodus 21:1-11 Deuteronomy 21:15-17 Deuteronomy 17:14-20
Wasn't the Mosaic Law admittedly a lesser law? God withheld things from them, right? D&C 84:25 and Deut 10:1-2 (JST)
@@davidmyers2407 Great point. And Christ spoke against many practices
Brilliant episode.
If one believes that God loves both his sons and his daughters, then polygamy cannot be of God. Period. This is because it hurts women; and it also hurts men because it makes impossible a truly loving and romantic union which I know is eternal and the way God lives. Celestial marriages are not a group thing and can't be. It's impossible. I also come from polygamist early church ancestry and I can also say that the ancestors I know of who lived it---it was so sad and no one was happy. Besides which, it was never legal. There is no way I believe Joseph Smith lived that way. His own words loudly say otherwise. Sadly, we are still practicing a version of it today by men whose wives have died and the man takes another wife and has her sealed to him. The wife who died gets zero say in it. If one believes in polygamy, one must then believe that men are superior and God really doesn't love his daughters much and Jacob 2 is just meaningless somehow.Which I know it isn't. So I don't think Moses lived polygamy. Thanks Michelle for your in-depth study and willingness to put up with mean and rude people sometimes:)
The change of name Jethro, also called Reuel, or Hobab were probably due to which language people used... same with the identity of Moses' wife... midianite, etheopean ..et..
I think it was both Jethro and the Lord. I think Moses received good counsel from a good leader, felt Jethro was right, then went to the Lord for confirmation and the Lord revealed to Moses the truth of what Jethro stated and what Moses had learned. We should all do the same- receive good counsel and seek confirmation from the Lord. Next, is the translation differences confirming "as far as it is translated correctly." Side note that Moses received the Melchizedek from Jethro (DC 84:6) and Ethiopian/Kush(as you mentioned means black) further showing the concept of blacks and the priesthood.
The word Ethiopian in Numbers comes from a Hebrew word meaning Cushite, or a descendant of Cush, meaning Noah's son Ham.
Ethiopian was was once the name of the African continent and the people on it.. like Asians are from Asian..
all caught up, and have enjoyed and shared your videos,
Her scholarship is poor. Josephus in his writings (2.10.2) shows that Moses, as a General of Egypt, married an Ethiopian princess to end a war. He is tells a detailed story about it. He then confirms the other marriage in Midian. There are two ancient witnesses and one modern. It is sure.
Cwic media has a great video about the curse on Lamanites not being about skin color
Thanks. I'll check it out.
You made some very interesting points.
LOL, interesting good, or interesting bad? 😉
@@MichelleBStone Convincing might be a better word. I thought you made some very strong arguments.
Her scholarship is poor. Josephus in his writings (2.10.2) shows that Moses, as a General of Egypt, married an Ethiopian princess to end a war. He is tells a detailed story about it. He then confirms the other marriage in Midian. There are two ancient witnesses and one modern. It is sure.
In Hebrew, Roo-El is friend of God. Hobab means Cherished
Polygamy was mandated and even sanctioned by the Law of Moses. Levirate Marriage practices are outlined in Deuteronomy 25:5-6. The Practice of Levirate marriage did not make any conditions on whether or not the brother-in-law was married.
The scripture reads:
5If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of a husband's brother unto her.
6 And it shall be, that the firstborn which she beareth shall succeed in the name of his brother which is dead, that his name be not put out of Israel.
If the brother of the deceased was already married, it did not relieve him from the responsibility of the law, he was required to marry the widow of his brother in order to raise up seed unto him "that his name be not put out of Israel"
The widow with no children, upon the death of her husband, was automatically considered to be betrothed, or engaged,, to the next brother in the family of her now deceased husband. This practice was not just a custom, but an integral part of the religious law at the time of Jesus. Ancient Israel was fervent in keeping the Law of Moses.
So you're saying polygamy is levitical.....?
Thank you for engaging. I'm trying to understand how you see that particular scripture as relevant. Are you saying that Moses was a polygamist? And if so, did he have a brother that died to cause his polygamy?
Are you saying this scripture shows that polygamy is of God and is an eternal doctrine necessary for exaltation? To me, that would be quite a stretch.
I also wonder how we should prioritize scriptures, especially when they contradict. The Law of Moses is a big hairy complicated mess that none of us really understand. Deuteronomy 17:17 says men should not multiply wives. Leviticus 18:16 prohibits marrying your brother's wife, directly contradicting 25:5-6. It is likely that the reason for 25:5-6 is that wives were considered the property of the family and were not allowed to marry outside the family. Also non virgins were often not considered eligible for marriage, which is very sad. I am so grateful we don't still have all of these sexist and unfair rules which cause so many problems and required strange solutions.
In general, I think we are much better off looking to the far clearer and more loving teachings of Christ and the Book of Mormon. Both require that widows be cared for, and none require that the women marry anyone (in other words, be forced to prostitute themselves0) in order to be taken care of. Mosiah 21 is a great example. Verse 10 "Now there were a great many widows in the land, and they did cry mightily from day to day, for a great fear of the Lamanites had come upon them." Verse 21 "17 Now there was a great number of women, more than there was of men; therefore king Limhi commanded that every man should impart to the support of the widows and their children, that they might not perish with hunger; and this they did because of the greatness of their number that had been slain."
James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
When we try to use cherry picked snippets from the overwhelmingly complex and ill understood law of Moses (which was a lower low) to try to support strange claims of what is supposed to be a much much higher law, we are on very shaky ground.
That is a conjecture without an example of this happening
I once considered Levirate marriage as an exception to monogamy, too, until I researched it more. While the scriptures don’t explicitly make an exception for already-married brothers in Levirate marriage, there is also no evidence to support that they were required to take on the widow even if they were married. Even modern rabbis who have studied the Mosaic law their whole lives are hesitant to say a word about it because there is not enough evidence or precedent.
How poor your supposition is. Could it be possible, having referred to Josephus, that you are unaware of the absolutely strong support Josephus is to the idea that Moses had multiple wives? Josephus in his writings (2.10.2) shows that Moses, as a General of Egypt, married an Ethiopian princess to end a war. He is tells a detailed story about it. He then confirms the other marriage in Midian. After speaking with so many apologists and others, this is the first time you are informed of this?
Now it doesn't matter how you try to twist the scriptures, Moses was married to an Ethiopian woman while in Egypt, and then Marries a Midianite woman in exile. There are two ancient witnesses, and a stronger modern third. That means there are two wives. It doesn’t matter that there were no children by one marriage, not all women bear. But it is sure, Moses was a polygamist. Miriam, like you, had a problem with it and was struck leprose. Be more careful! There are two reliable sources; Three, including the word of God Himself in Sec. 132.
Here are some questions: What sources did Josephus use to support his biography of Moses in 2.9 and 2.10? Moses lived perhaps 1500 years before Josephus (we don't know the exact dates) so he couldn't have firsthand information, and we have no insight of what records he may have had access to or how accurate they may have been. It is most likely that his only source of Moses' life was, like ours, the Torah. There were not likely any other records. It is entirely possible that his ancient history of Moses was historical fiction, expanding on the obscure verse about his Ethiopian wife.
Also, the events described would have occurred before Moses left Egypt. Tharbis, the Ethiopian princess, would have been his first wife, who he married while still the prince of Egypt. It is very strange that this important royal marriage would be left out of the record. But far more important, please explain why Miriam and Aaron would be just fine meeting Moses when he came back to Egypt and working with him and sustaining him as a prophet, but then suddenly, out of the blue, one day in the desert, decided that his first marriage, which would have occurred decades before, was a deal breaker for them. You really need to explain this huge problem if you want to support your claim. I will be curious to hear your thoughts.
There are so many other significant problems with this idea, but for now, I'll leave it at that.
@@MichelleBStoneI know that Christ quotes scriptures that are not in the Bible. Josephus lived near the same time and likely had access to the same records. How quick you are to judge the resources of a guy who lived about 1900 years before you, and yet you don’t see the direct hypocrisy in doing so. In your vid, you reference Josephus as if he is a quality source, yet now you attempt to degrade his quality. His quality is much enhanced when it easily conforms to inspired writings, as in this case. The issue I wished to expose is that you claim the Bible is the only source that Moses had multiple wives, knowing full well Josephus supports and reinforces the Bible story as it is written. You knew there is a second ancient source, yet you lie and say the Bible is the only one. Whether I am a scholar or not is irrelevant. I did not claim to be, you did. I did not claim "this one scripture is the ONLY source...", you did. You lied and knowingly did so. It is apparent that you were aware of this record, as you have a quick and ready answer for it. Your intent is not to enlighten, but darken the minds of people. You are as the fouls of the air in the parable of the sower and as the scribes and pharisees of Matt 23 (vs. 13&27). I have clearly torn down your lies, those who listen to you will have the opportunity to read my words and be reminded of the truth and see you for what you are. The Sheep’s clothing is removed and we see a naked wolf. They are still free to follow you, but they also have the chance to be better informed.
@@cid9953 Wow, feeling rather grandiose, aren't you. That was amusing.
To answer your accusation, no, I hadn't heard this claim. Even after all the years of interacting with polygamy apologists nobody has brought up this passage of Josephus until now (perhaps because Moses wasn't a central topic of discussion.) So, thank you. I very much appreciate the additional reference. I didn't even see it in Ogden Kraut's awful book, "Polygamy and that Bible," which will be a future episode. However, as seems to usually be the case with claims of polygamists, it took about 15 minutes to find it, read it, and see the insurmountable problems with it. I find it interesting that instead of responding to those problems, you instead chose to insult and condemn me. Fascinating how that happens LOL
Again, if you want to make the claim that Moses was a polygamist, and that Josephus proves it, please explain the following:
Why was there no record of the marriage between Moses, the Prince of Egypt and the Princess of Ethiopia -- especially when it ended a war, and when so much is said about Moses's marriage to Zipporah? When Moses fled, what happened to Tharbis? Unless he took her with him (which it is clear he didn't) it was a clear case of abandonment, which would mean that Moses would be, at most, a serial monogamist, not a polygamist. Those are different things.
Third, and by far most critical, why in the world would Miriam and Aaron suddenly, out of the blue, decide that a marriage they had no problem with whatsoever and that occurred decades before and was for all intents dissolved, was now a central issue that disqualified Moses from his position? And why would their sudden disapproval coincide perfectly with Jethro bringing Zipporah and their sons back to Moses? Can you see how impossible this is?
This claim is so illogical it defies reason. But it is a good illustration of how desperate polygamists are to justify their extremely weak claims. I find it astounding that you put so much effort into claiming Moses had two wives, as if that would prove anything anyway. Where was Moses commanded to take multiple wives? Where did he command the people to take multiple wives? Where did he teach that it was the means of exaltation? Or that it was necessary to fulfill the Abrahamic covenant? Or anything else that latter-day polygamists claimed? There is not good reason to believe that Moses was a polygamist, and your claims reveal your lack of logic and rather desperate motivated reasoning. But beyond that, even if Moses were a polygamist, which he wasn't, you still would have SO MANY insurmountable problems with your theology that only keeping people in spiritual blindness (which you do) would ever convince them that it was correct.
@@MichelleBStone LOL extremely weak claims? Here are my claims: 1) Christ; 2) Joseph Smith; and 3) you: Joseph Smith - a prophet, whom you (by virtue of your membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and quoting his other revelations, etc.) testify is a prophet, received a revelation in which the Lord told him Moses was a polygamist; 4) The Bible says he was; 5) Josephus says he was; and, 6) My own testimony through revelation. You think you have anything close to these? “What greater witness can you have then from God” (D&C 6:23)? I have even you as a witness; while you have vain imaginations.
I can imagine details and context that would answer your questions. These would be projections and prove no more than your postulations do. Most of your questions stem from your imagined context. There are many things that do not make sense or are difficult to understand, this in no way diminishes their truthfulness. When Nephi encountered them he inquired of the Lord; while others talked among their ignorant selves (1Nephi 10&11 & 15:3&8-11). That we do not have details is no proof that something did or did not happen. At times it is very difficult to be sure of timing, causation, and sequence in the scriptures. Seeking revelation, as Joseph did (Sec. 132), is a better answer than making things up. If this is the first time you heard about Josephus’ account, perhaps you are way to quick to dismiss it because of the faulty context you have built up on the subject. What other details have you missed in your over-eagerness to disprove polygamy? The records are sound, confirmatory, and are clearly against your imaginative narrative. You should at least edit your video now and include Josephus’ account. The vid is currently lying.
Multiple times I have had hard questions. I have inquired of the Lord and received revelations. I know revelation is a true principle and I recommend it as the solution to all struggling on this or other topics (Moroni 10:3-5). I am talking about God speaking to man and explaining things, not inspiration or simply having good feelings. Through revelation I know God lives, I know He loves me and all people. I know Christ is our Savior and more. I know that the Book of Mormon is true and that Joseph Smith was a true prophet. Section 132 is a true revelation given to a true prophet. This does not mean that people understand it well (you and other members of the church say things that suggest misunderstanding). It does mean eternal marriage is a true principle, polygamy is instituted at times by God, and the prophets mentioned were polygamists.
I have no further interest in supporting your channel, even to offer a voice of reason. The gutter is not the place to disseminate truth.
@@cid9953 First, I am not able to edit the video -- It seems you know very little about podcasting. I can potentially make a new short video about it, and in the meantime, I hope people will engage in the comments and read what you have said. The evidence that 132 was from Joseph Smith is deeply problematic. You have to take a LOT of things on faith, and trust statements from people who repeated proved themselves untrustworthy. The Bible does not teach that Moses was a polygamist -- quite the opposite. You are entitled to your revelation. I recommend watching the episode 11 "Verse 1 -- Preconceptions and Concubines" for some insight into motivated reasoning and how preconceptions can affect revelation.
You are deeply affected by motivated reasoning. You completely ignore anything and everything that does not support your bias and then jump all over the slightest hint of a tiny point you feel you can exploit to give yourself permission to throw out any difficultly, just to make yourself again comfortable in your false tradition. If you want to believe Moses was a polygamist, fine, go ahead. You can ignore or attempt to explain away all the facts that make that impossible or irrelevant by claiming "We don't know everything, " but it does not strengthen your claim. But, if you at all care about truth, why not also engage on the other issues? You should try to come up with counter points or explanations for the rest of the massive evidence the proves that polygamy never was of God. It is SO EASY to pick apart one simple factoid from one single podcast -- as if I should be expected or required to know every single possible thing anybody has ever said in defense of polygamy in order to speak about it. That is a requirement no scholar or expert at any level in any field could be held to. I appreciate you bringing up this piece of information. As I have always done with every piece of information on this topic, I have studied it out, honestly considered it, and found it to be very lacking. You are entitled to your revelation (motivated as it may be) and I am entitled to mine. People with no scriptural backing or other evidence to support their claims often want to get into a battle of revelation which reminds me of an elementary school playground, "My revelation can beat up your revelation!" I find that extremely unhelpful when seeking truth.