Early Analysis: Midair Collision March 7, 2023 Winter Haven, FL
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- Опубликовано: 8 фев 2025
- On March 7, 2023, a Piper Warrior and a Piper J-3 Cub on floats collided over Lake Hartridge, just east of Winter Haven Regional Airport in Winter Haven, Florida. Sadly, all four people on board the airplanes perished in the accident. The AOPA Air Safety Institute gives an early look into the factors surrounding the crash and addresses notable portions of the flight and highlights areas the NTSB will likely probe.
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I was flying at Winter Haven a few weeks ago holding short of the runway waiting on traffic to land that was on final when a seaplane took off from the lake and cut straight across the approach end of the runway. My instructor and me were dumbfounded. I never want to do traffic pattern work out there ever again.
It was the same instructor I am afraid
And I was looking at that school for seaplane training. Not anymore
Ive flown out of Jack Brown's and KGIF. A few of us were talking a week prior how WH is a perfect storm for a collision...
@@rafborrero Excellent choice.
Some of those seaplane have radios,,they'll make you turn it off
Zachary mace was a coworker and a dear friend, he was one of the kindest and funniest people in our workspace and he will be missed by every life he touched. His constant joyous attitude and quick thinking jokes were something I’ll never forget. He was incredibly knowledgeable in every field he had interest in. When it came to piloting it was even that much more obvious. He was a couple years ahead of me in pilot school even tho he was a year younger than me and whenever I had a question he was more than happy to help. I just wanted to say please don’t take any life for granted, hug your loved ones, tell them u appreciate them because you never know when tragedies like this will occur. We were supposed to be pilots together but now my first mentor is gone. I love you dearly Zach and I’ll miss you forever❤️
So sorry for your loss. I too lost a great mentor and friend a couple years ago. My heart aches for you.
I've had a similar experience, but not at a seaplane base and well before we had ADS-B. It happened at a non-towered airfield in Colorado back in 1995 as I was flying a C-172, doing touch and goes on an early spring afternoon. There was no other traffic in the pattern at the time. I was flying a left traffic pattern, making my standard radio calls and no one was replying to them. Upon my fifth circuit, I began my base turn to final when suddenly, a J-3 Cub appeared about 50 feet in front of me. I veered hard to my right, added full power and proceeded to ciimb, while keeping the Cub in my view. The Cub had entered from the right and turned in front of me just as I was turning on to the final approach leg.
After having the crap scared out of me, I re-entered the pattern, did a full stop landing and taxied to the ramp, parking next to the Cub that had nearly collided with me. After shutdown, as I got out of the Cessna, I approached the pilot of the Cub, an elderly gentleman with a younger chap who was riding as his passenger. I said to him, "Do you know that you cut me off on final just a few minutes ago? Did you even see me?" He just gave me a blank stare and said "no, I did not". He didn't even have a radio with him, which wasn't required in the airspace we were both flying in.
Since that day, I've been extra vigilant when flying in to any non-towered airport. Even with ADS-B, it can still be a challenge, especially when traffic volume is high. I think the requirement of having a working radio and ADS-B out to operate in the entire NAS is a must. It's a small investment that has great benefits. Perhaps in this case it would have helped prevent this collision from occurring.
Fly safe and fly often.
I had a seaplane take off at the same time I did after a touch and go on runway 23 at KGIF. I'm sure it seemed much closer than we actually were but I had to actively turn to avoid the cub on the my upwind leg. This is the only landing I've done there and I immediately left the pattern and said "never again". Unbelievable that this is a SOP for Jack Brown's and it's no surprise that this accident happened.
This is a great example of just because you can do it, doesn't mean you should do it. Given the proximity to the airport and the increase in traffic in this area. It is probably time to accept change and update the Cubs with more modern equipment. While it is not a sure thing, a radio and ADS-B are just two more tools that could have prevented this tragedy.
would not be surprised if this was a case of being banned from updating there equipment for "safety reasons"... the equipment being either "a fire hazard", untested "uncertified to be used in flight" or too heavy "effecting the weight balance of the plane".
It's crazy in this day and age that anyone doesn't have a radio. How much is an ICOM handheld?
@@marcusvaldes I think the lightest radio devices are 200grams, maybe 300grams, but I am not sure the tower can communicate with such. I think, promoting the creation of tower frequency capable light devices is something we do need to work on
An adsb would have done nothing, both aircraft don't have the gear to see adsb
@@KaisTheFireWarrior If they both had it, it would have done something.
I've flown at this airport throughout private, instrument, commercial. It's a miracle this accident hasn't happened sooner since this is a known problem at winter haven. Theres been several instances where I've had to change course in the pattern to avoid the cubs
It sure is a funky situation. Same problem exists with helicopters that typically fly lower right hand patterns. If someones altitude is off it can get interesting for sure.
@@TheAirplaneDriver The FAR has changed for helicopters and they are required to fly the same pattern as airplanes.
@@SuperZman3333 Interesting. I was not aware of that. I just checked the FAA’s digital AIM and it still shows RP at 500’ AGL for helicopters. Can you point me to where that has been changed? I don’t doubt you….I’m just not finding it. Thanks.
@@TheAirplaneDriver You are correct that it states that we have the option to fly RP but says that it depends on airport and if we are practicing auto's or not. Otherwise we will still follow standard traffic patterns. It used to say and how I was initially trained was that we fly opposite pattern not matter what but that changed a few years back. The reason we fly closer to runway is our glide distance is shorter than that of a fixed wing. Now it does say that if we are going direct to ramp than we are to avoid the traffic pattern which is usually the case and for us to interfere with fixed wing is extremely rare. The majority of my interactions with fixed wing is when I hover taxi and the fixed wing is not paying attention and is heading straight for me but that is a whole other issue in itself. Also on a side not, the AIM is just for informational purposes and with that you and I are both correct about traffic pattern. Also wasn’t trying to say you were wrong or anything just pointing it out from perspective of a heli pilot.
@@SuperZman3333 Thanks the explanation. I am aware of the purposes of the AIM. I would contend that it is more than informational…more an extension of the FAR’s. You are certainly right though, it is not the FAR’s. Is the procedure for helicopter pattern in the FAR’s?
No worries…this is a good discussion.
As a helicopter pilot I always assume the fixed wing traffic can’t see me and I fly accordingly (like motorcycles that drive “defensively”). Judging by the comments it seems the J3’s don’t do that. Also, these days an iPad with a ADSB receiver is cheap considering the amount of situational awareness it gives you around the busy pattern.
The visuals done for this video are top notch! Thanks for producing some of the best aviation accident videos! You guys are saving lives!
Don't give them too much credit there. That was the default Cub from the new Microsoft Flight Simulator. The rest was just Google Earth images.
I was good friends with the instructor on board the cadet. She and I went through flight training together at Polk State from Student pilot to commercial pilot. Such a tragedy that 4 souls had their lives cut short.
She is missed at the airside center
Why would the Cub not have had at least a portable aviation radio, if for no other reason than safety and traffic awareness in a busy piece of airspace? The floatplane base is immediately under the traffic pattern for the airport.
Two aircraft operating in two different airports would have been on different frequencies so, if anything, it would have made matters worse. Flarm would have saved the day.
Both airports operate off of the same CTAF frequency: 123.050. Having a handheld radio would have improved situational awareness.
@@KeithWhittingham "...made matters worse." Lol wut?
@@KeithWhittingham These two airports utilize the same frequency…
@@jhfisk Show me where the frequency is documented
I had three classes with Zach. I remember him as a funny and smart person. He was my age. I took off from KBOW (Bartow) right after the accident had occurred. I have been cut off before at Winter Haven and NEVER go over there. It's a scary airport.
I was flying out of KBOW the day before and the day after. Practicing diversions to KGIF... Such a crazy, unsafe airport and the pattern is always full of students
So the sea base folks have been flying pretty much through an airport's traffic pattern with no transponder or radio for decades. How long before one of their aircraft ends up a bit higher than planned for whatever reason. Who has ever thought this was acceptable is beyond me.
Under
@@therealxunil2 there's not really an "under" with traffic patterns, airplanes go all the way down to the runway, and when you're flying "under" someone's base you can only hope they don't descend fast enough. In this case it would appear that the floatplane was very high as the collision occurred immediately after the base was called, so probably around 200 feet below TPA. Regardless, you do that crap long enough - something bad will happen. Doing that without ADSB or radio is completely suicidal in my view.
Especially being ‘under’ at the approach end. Being ‘under’ is always risky but it’s most risky at the approach end where aircraft are descending.
Another way to state that would be that the Winterhaven traffic has been flying through the seaplane base traffic pattern for years. Both are FAA charted approved public use airports, neither has “priority” over the other.
@@skydvrboy I don't think what seaplanes do is a standard traffic pattern, they appear to have invented their own thing. I don't know much about float plane operations, but the pattern described in this video seems very idiosyncratic.
Prayers for the families involved and my daughter who is the best friend of Faith the instructor 🛐💔
Great video Richard. Will be interesting to see what if any changes to procedures will happen there. One thing at 5:30 when you have the map having the J-3 coming in from the Northeast... that Mode-C Veil is only 2NM from the airport to the NE. I wonder if the J-3 was coming in from the North or even circling in from the NW, otherwise he was inside the mode-c moments before the collision.
Though without an electrical system, the mode-c veil means nothing at all for the J-3.
@@ansonmoxness5403 True by the letter of §91.225(e), but §91.13(a) also applies. Should a J-3 be flying without ADS-B in congested airspace between two Mode-C veils while NORDO? This quadruple fatality makes a tragic argument against it.
I agree with the praise of Richard’s video. AOPA’s ASI videos are an invaluable (and free!) continuing education program for pilots of every age and proficiency.
I've based my airplanes out of KGIF for over 20 years, love this airport and am gutted by the tragedy. I used to have a J-3 on wheels and have also flown at Brown's. I always used a handheld in my J-3 and would consider that the bare minimum to have aboard and use. KGIF is a prime candidate for new remote tower technology, but just having everyone up on com is the single best policy to mitigate risk.
I attained my Seaplane rating at Jack Brown’s back in 2012. While I think the instructor had a handheld for listening, the Cub was not equipped. We never climbed more than 500 ft agl, and most other traffic was above us.
We also landed at some other lakes that were a bit farther away from the main airport.
Were you at that altitude in the airspace of a traffic pattern on a final base leg of a runway?
"Most traffic was above us..." yes, "most" is the key word here. It takes just ONE student below traffic at the wrong time. You were lucky not to become a statistic.
I fly a C-150 in North Carolina. Every airport I fly to (even mid week) have crowded traffic patterns due to all the new students wanting a career in aviation. I find it difficult to get any pattern work due to crowded airspace.
Glad to see enthusiasm for flying. Just be careful, and if you have a bad feeling about something, bug out and practice something else and live to fly another day.
I am truly amazed that ADS-B in and out are not required in ALL planes in ALL airspace. And it's just crazy to fly without a radio in 2023.
Agreed. I have to admit I was shocked to learn that radios aren't required equipment on all GA aircraft.
Surely radios are compulsory - thats insane.
There are less than 20 mid airs in the US each year out of a total of about 1,000 GA crashes a year. Compared to the other reasons for aircraft falling out of the sky…CFIT, VMC into IFR conditions, aircraft in flight failures, fuel exhaustion/starvation, etc., collisions are pretty scarce. When you consider the millions of GA flight hours and operations per year, your chances of having a mid air are about as statistically relevant as having a car accident because a goat fell off an overpass and hit your windshield.
If you have ever taught anyone to land an airplane, you would know that this aspect of instruction is highly intense and the students are task saturated. Keeping eyes peeled on an iPad or glass display looking for traffic is absolutely the wrong thing to do when landing or teaching someone to land.
There are two basic ways to avoid this kind of issue: 1. eyes OUTSIDE the cockpit always (except brief moments needed to cross check instruments) while employing proper scan techniques and 2. proper pattern entry procedures. Radio helps but never should be relied on. ADS B in/out is a nice adjunct to M1A1 eyeballs, but not essential. Only eyeballs are essential.
Mandating ADS B would provide a statistically insignificant improvement to the GA safety record. Best to focus resources on other issues that need fixing.
@@TheAirplaneDriver but Surely communication radios should be compulsory.
@@rinzler9775 ADS-B In and out is NOT a communication radio. It's just a super transponder that broadcasts and receives location information . And costs a lot to buy and install - especially in an airplane that may not have an electrical system, like most J-3s...
I second the comment from ALK// Winterhaven is too busy for this practice, Turning right base for the seaplane base with no radio in Winterhaven left traffic is pretty crazy IMHO Damn// my condolences for all the family's who are involved, easily mitigated IMHO
With today's technology, there is no reason why the J3 doesn't carry a handheld radio. In Socal, older training airplanes carry ADSB in such as the Sentry with iPad to provide situation awareness in the congested practice area and around the busy class D airspace.
Sentry is ADS-B IN, not OUT.
Would it not make sense to have some sort of ADS-B IN and at least a portable radio on ALL aircraft being used for training? The work load on a student pilot is huge, and these tools just help establish situation awareness.
@@samborlon The warrior had ADS-B out. So while both having out and in capability would be ideal, if the J-3 had an ADS-B in receiver paired to an iPad, then they would’ve been alerted to the traffic. You’ll find very few aircraft these days without ADS-B out, except for those like that J-3 cub who basically never leave the home airport.
@@RomansFiveDotEight You're right. I didn't realize the Warior had ADSB-OUT.
Even if they had ADSB IN, they still wouldn’t have seen the cub since they’re not equipped with ADSB out.
I just cannot wrap my mind around this situation. Having training patterns in an uncontrolled area with other low altitude traffic paths crossing is call for a trouble already. And non one remains concerned all these “60 years” about having a training (!) seaplane fleet right at the side. And not equipped with a 400 bucks simple radio or tablet with adsb. How could it be in y.2023? And both those were “teaching”! Just insane. Heart with the families(((
Great analysis as always. Thank you sir for your service!
This reminds me my local airport where there are seaplane operations in close range with landplanes. The only difference is that airport is towered, while this one is not. Great analysis as always!
The age of the student pilot in the Warrior was just 19 and his flight instructor 23 and newly married. Such a tragedy all the way around.
She was 24
@@gumbyshrimp2606 Ok? 23, 24..big deal.
So sad at any age my friend
@@gumbyshrimp2606 family friend here she turns 24 in may… so 23
@@atomic7088 she "was turning" 24
When I hear "they have been doing it for 60 years like that", I knew the reason for the crash. Those procedures might be adequate 60 years ago - today they certainly are not.
KGIF is a hazardous airport to stay clear of. I went there once and encountered a runway incursion and a seaplane below me out of nowhere cutting me off on final.
Accidents don’t just happen surprisingly. As others have noted, there have been several close calls already. But no one took it seriously enough to take any action.
I was departing rwy 23 at GIF once and a seaplane was climbing off the lake, somewhat in the same direction but our paths were converging. I couldn't see it at all from the left seat, but my instructor did and took over to make an early crosswind to put some distance between us.
See and avoid at its best!
@@EllsworthJohnson-ui1xm It is my understanding that Jack Brown's and others take pride in not having a radio, Its murder to me
I like your sober, no nonsense early analyses. Here as a private pilot myself, I find it unacceptable that the seaplane is not mandated to have a radio, even a handheld one for monitoring the traffic at the adjacent real airport. And I also find it unacceptable that the seaplane was flying a pattern that is in conflict with the land based pattern. The seaplane should be required to fly over the center of the land field, to both see the windsocks and determine what other traffic is in the land pattern before joining their own pattern for the lake. Approaching in opposition to the base leg of the landing runway is asking for trouble. And yes a tablet with ForeFlight could give the NORDO seaplane situational awareness in addition to proper procedure to mesh with the runway pattern, and a handheld comm radio.
Glad you said this
I would think you should definitely stay on the ground, period. You have no concept of those operations. This has been going on for many many years, and worked fine. So one accident, attributed to "both aircraft" should change everything.
@@EllsworthJohnson-ui1xm Anyone who believes that because an extremely unsafe practice has gone on for years without incident, means it is OK, needs a brain adjustment. And it is not attributed to "both aircraft", it is clearly the fault of the NORDO seaplane as the Piper was on a proper circuit, with correct callouts at every stage of the pattern work. The seaplane approached in opposition to the base leg of the land based pattern. Read the majority of the comments from those who have direct experience with this SNAFU!
Colonel McSpadden
Thank you for this report. I am not a pilot but am trying to understand these accidents.
Thank you. Such an unfortunate and sad accident and loss of life. RIP to all lost.
Hearing the Left-Base call and the immediate ELT broke my heart.
With air powered generators for electronics such as transponders and radios or adsb-in devices like the iLevil Bom there are inexpensive ways to improve communication and awareness on older non-electrical planes.
Richard didn’t comment about how a simple hand held radio may have made a difference in this situation. Condolence to both families involved.
This was a very unfortunate accident. I have been planning to attain my CPL-ASES with Jack Brown's school for a while. Thanks for the great breakdown.
As a CFI who teaches in the PA-28, I try to remain as diligent as possible for the low wing descending into high wing scenario. This was definitely the perfect storm. RIP to all on board.
I was planning on flying with them too. I will never step foot in that organization without radios or adsb in busy winter Haven. That’s criminal
@@javev1772 strongly agree. I don’t get the whole “they did it that way for decades!”. And? 4 people died regardless, and in an event that seems to be pretty preventable with at least self announced radio calls. As soon as I heard it, I shook my head at such an utterly stupid practice that contributed to drastic consequences.
This wasn't low wing descending into high wing, this was a head on collision.
Also in the Cub the instructor was sitting in the back, and he wouldn't have had much or any view forward.
Great video.
Great analysis and presentation! Yes- the stars aligned with the obvious result this time, but I'm surprised that it hasn't occurred before now. I am betting that the sea plane base will be required to at least carry portable radios so as to at least monitor, and therefore be aware, of any traffic that they should avoid.
Times change, and so do procedures. This accident may be what it takes to overhaul their SOP at these fields. RIP to all.
It's really insane that this type of accident could occur while the seaplane is "following regs". This student pilot is doing touch n goes, doing everything correctly, and basically get drilled in the face right after turning base with no radio call from anyone else, this is unacceptable.
Amen
I blame the FAA also.
@@jahnkaplank8626That's stupid. The government isn't there to prevent you from doing stupid or dangerous things. "The government" is just people like you and me. They aren't there to babysit you.
Thanks for the video. One thing that AOPA can do today to help avoid future accidents is to push the FAA to allow portable ADS-B out systems like the uavionix skyecho. They are battery powered and can be dropped on the glareshield of any aircraft. This would have also prevented the crash of the UPS Caravan when it hit a powered parachute west of Houston.
Ask just about any pilot and they have at least one experience where traffic information may have saved their bacon.
Nice analysis. It's time for the seaplane guys to accept radios, transponders, and adsb.
I would assume you have no problem donating the money to any seaplane pilot that needs such equipment. Always easy to spend others money. How about you can not fly unless you give an equal amount to someone else.
How not having a radio and a traffic detection device is not mandatory for EVERY aircraft is beyond me.
We have a cub and always carry a handheld. I booked my husband a seaplane rating with JB this spring and I’m reconsidering it until at least a handheld can be carried
Thanks for these videos. Very informative. 👍👍🛩️🛩️🛩️
Forty-five-degree entry to downwind-Recommended by the Aeronautical Information Manual, this entry requires you to fly a 45-degree angle to the midpoint of the downwind leg, at which point you will join the flow of traffic on the downwind at the specified pattern altitude. It enables you to more easily see and be seen as you enter the pattern.
The J3 needed a hand radio if they was going to be that close to the airport. there is no excuse for not knowing what is going on at the airport they are landing near.
Having a radio and knowing what is going on is NOT synonymous. Have you ever attempted to use a handheld in the cockpit?
@@Pilot_Tony If you can’t operate a radio in your aircraft around an active traffic pattern then don’t fly.
@@Pilot_Tony I've seen you speaking up against people mentioning how a handheld could have helped prevent this tragedy. I do agree with the others who say that, the airport they were flying from has 80,000+ operations per year which is 219+ per day. I'm guessing that most of that is consolidated over a 12 hour period. While not required to have a radio not having one in such close proximity to an airport like this is bad airmanship and likely to lead to issues.
@@Pilot_Tony okay, old crusty pilot that pinned Wilbur’s wings on…just because it’s legal doesn’t make it safe. See and avoid has led to many a low-wing vs high-wing mid airs. In this analysis, he stated that it was probable that the Cub pilot was looking into the Sun for a white airplane. The low wing was making short approaches (power-off 180°s for commercial training). He likely turned with the cub under him and couldn’t see it until they were head on. They were both on bad and as the cub turned base (high wing) he couldn’t see the piper likely above him.
A radio could have made all of the difference. If you’re flying in that busy airspace without a radio, it doesn’t make you edgy, cool, or salty. It doesn’t make you a good pilot because your see and avoid skills are so good. It makes you irresponsible and dangerous. It’s irresponsible and dangerous for a school to not have a freaking handheld that goes out on each flight. I’d bet my checking account that the school will have radios from this point forward, if they remain in business.
@@JuanTyme you have never attempted to use a handheld in cockpit, have you?
I flew out of Winter Haven airport back in 1987. I flew out of there every day for a month. My friend Marvin had an airplane too. We would fly all over Florida in those days. Sun n fun was a great air show that we both flew into that day. We landed on Dolphin island to watch the Thunder Birds do an air show. What great times, but I’m soooo saddened to hear about 4 Pilots getting killed at Winter Haven airport in a mid-air collision! God rest their souls. 😭
Did my SES rating at Jack Browns . Knowing the proximity to Winter Haven I took an ICOM hand held with me but the Cubs have an intercom using headsets so I could not hear the ICOM. Did a lot of flying in and out of Winter Haven/Gilbert both fixed wing and helicopter and out has gotten busy over the years. Bottom line is SEE AND AVOID. Yes, it might have been a perfect storm type situation but the end result is unacceptable. I've spent hundreds of hours in traffic patterns with gliders and tow planes and one must continually be looking.
It is Time to make ADS-b out mandatory for all planes in all air spaces. With tail, light systems and others. It is certainly not cost prohibitive as perhaps it once was.
The J3 doesn't have a radio or ADSB.. A Sporty's PJ2 portable handheld radio is 250 bucks. Get one and turn it on when around an airport.
It doesn't even have to be that fancy or expensive. I've got two Icom A22 handhelds (from the 1980's) in my experimental. Both of them were under $100 on ebay and work great. This crash was 100% preventable had the J-3 simply been listening to the Warrior on frequency. Horrible!
As a student pilot I dreaded performing pattern work at Winter Haven, KGIF, I used to refer to them as cowboys ! as they would fly traffic patterns with no radios or ADFB, It was a free-for-all. It brings the stress levels up. You're constantly worried about conflicts.
I think it's time they do away with this old regulation of no radio on older planes. I agree with an earlier comment It's irresponsible to fly without a radio in a congested area and I think it's just to save a buck.
So let's restrict all ultra lites at any field where there is general aviation, and gyrocopters, etc. Yeah, makes sense. If you feel you can not handle the stress, quite flying. A tremendous number of those 'cowboys' you refer to have been airline and corporate pilots, and I guarantee we have much more ability that you.
When I trained over 20 years ago, I was amazed to learn radios/transponders weren't required in Class E and G airspace. As a "rusty pilot" returning to GA, ADS-B and ELT's are definitely a good thing for towered fields, but also add cost to an already exorbitantly priced endeavor. Further, to be useful to other pilots, ADS-B IN is required. Having recently returned to flying, I was shocked by the increase in radio traffic, some doing pattern work as I soon will. I don't think the answer is requiring ADS-B, but I'm amazed radios STILL aren't a requirement. Then again, there were CFI's on both planes. Technology and money can't fix everything.
ADS-B Out is required only in class A,B and C airspaces. ADS-B In is not a requirement by the FAA yet.
@@BeAManPodkast right.
I have owned a Cub and always had a handheld wired to an external antenna. We don't need an electrical system to drive it--just keep it changed in the hangar-- and it works adequately to help at controlled and non tower airports. Seems like Jack Brown needs to think more about safety. Also, with the number of low volume airports I have seen with control towers, this one seems to need attention.
Although regulations allow it, tough to believe the j3 had no radio or even a handheld. I hope this changes.
Not likely for a long time. Now that the accident happened, who knows how many law suits will be filed, and if the sea plane base planes suddenly begin to use hand helds (which I think would be a good thing) it would give the appearance of guilt, so due to our litigious society, don't look for it soon.
ALL manned aircraft should have radios, no exceptions.
They should also have tcas mandatory.
Before people start yelling at me about the expense listen. You have enough money to have a plane you can afford a collision avoidance device.
You can have ten radios onboard but if you’re not using them or actively listening it doesn’t matter.
Don’t mean squat if they don’t use them, and in most regards, they don’t.
And all pilots feeling that way should be grounded, no exceptions. Totally absurd, and I assume you are not a pilot. But you seem to give unmanned aircraft a free pass for some reason?
Inevitable. Aircraft operating close to an airport without a radio. Rediculous.
Two aircraft operating in two different airports would have been on different frequencies so, if anything, it would have made matters worse. Flarm would have saved the day.
@@KeithWhittinghamBoth Jack Browns and Winter Haven are on the same frequency specifically because of the mixed use air space. All it would have taken was a handheld radio to avoid this.
@@someguyontheinternet7165 As far as I can see JB has no official frequency.
Two different airfields using the same frequency doesn't simplify matters. Having to build up a model of two active intersecting circuits in your head is difficult and outside the realm of most pilots. It would make matters worse.
Flarms would almost certainly prevented the incident.
@@KeithWhittingham That's what the approach plates and a proper briefing are for.
RIP it's always hard to watch when we lose members in the aviation community. May they soar proudly in heaven. Blue skies and tailwinds.
There is no reason why all aircraft shouldn’t have radios and adsb out at this point
Just because that is how you have always done it, doesn't make it the correct way. Radio's, GPS, ADS-B.. Come on people, let's get with the times. This is uncalled for in this day and age.
The single thing that scares me the most about flying in GA, is other airplanes without radios or ADS-B.
If you’re in an ultralight or a glider, fine, but if you’ve got an engine which can power a radio, you should have one. Period.
I sincerely hope the AOPA will, if not push for, at least not block, any attempts to make radios required equipment.
4 lives. There’s no argument against having a radio worth 4 lives.
Gliders and ultralights usually have radios and ads-b nowadays.
Even paragliders, so they get noticed by airplanes.
But yeah, if it's not mandatory, someone will always cheap out.
@@svr5423 Great, all the more reason that it should be mandatory for all aircraft.
Excellent analysis as usual. Thanks for this. Honestly, I cannot believe this has not happened earlier at these facilities over the years....the entire operation with Winter Haven landing west seems a bit suspect given the close proximity to the Cubs patterns. Anyway, hopefully some good policies with come of this sad event. Rules in aviation are too often written in blood.
The FAA handbook states 1,000 feet AGL not MSL. I looked at my charts and can not find the approved procedure to fly at the lower altitude. One obvious problem is the turn to final, on the piper, is typically at 500 feet AGL, the same as the other plane. One plane a little high the other a little low?😢 The piper had ADSB out. I'm interested in its last reported altitude.
This reminds me of one instance when I had just took off from my home base and heard a call from someone entering the pattern. I never saw the other plane, and it scared the hell out of me. The sun was not in my eyes. It just felt too close for comfort. I guess in WWII, I would have been the one who got shot down.
I wonder if short approaches should be NA for rwy 29 at Winterhaven because the constant attention to the runway and the large descent rate distracts from see and avoid of the floatplane traffic
Interesting thought- because in some accounts, the Piper PA-28 Warrior was down to 471 feet MSL as he turned left base to RWY 29 at KGIF where the midair occurred over Lake Hartridge with the J-3 Cub. RWY 29 is 4001 x 60 ft. The obstructions to RWY 29 are a 5 ft. fence, lighted, 240 ft. from runway, 250 ft. left of centerline, 8:1 slope to clear. I have never flown out of KGIF, but I have flown out of Lakeland and other airports in that area. Why was the PA-28 Warrior relatively low, so far out on base leg over Lake Hartridge ? Maybe I am missing something here. To me however, the J-3 Cub crew never imagined nor expected a powered aircraft to be that low on a base leg to RWY 29 at KGIF. I know that the Warrior was engaged in possibly "making short approaches " but if you look at both a map of that area in addition to the ADS-B data plot, the Warrior previously had made their downwind-base final turns much more extended out and almost to the eastern shoreline of Lake Hartridge before turning base/final. This time, when the midair occurred it was on the far western shore of the Lake Hartridge and the downwind to base turn occurred at an altitude of less than 500 feet.
Why would the cub, with no radio, fly into a traffic pattern of an airport at pattern altitude without keeping a sharp eye out?
What happened to the general rule that when flying over the traffic pattern at an untowered airport always stay at least 500' above pattern altitude? It appears that the Cub entered the traffic pattern of KGIF where it should not have.
No, the existing policy at JB's Sea Plane Base is for the Cub's to stay BELOW 500' feet as they fly their circuits and during entry/exits from their own patterns. Interesting thought- because in some accounts, the Piper PA-28 Warrior was down to 471 feet MSL as he turned left base to RWY 29 at KGIF where the midair occurred over Lake Hartridge with the J-3 Cub. RWY 29 is 4001 x 60 ft. The obstructions to RWY 29 are a 5 ft. fence, lighted, 240 ft. from runway, 250 ft. left of centerline, 8:1 slope to clear. I have never flown out of KGIF, but I have flown out of Lakeland and other airports in that area. Why was the PA-28 Warrior relatively low, so far out on base leg over Lake Hartridge ? Maybe I am missing something here. To me however, the J-3 Cub crew never imagined nor expected a powered aircraft to be that low on a base leg to RWY 29 at KGIF. I know that the Warrior was engaged in possibly "making short approaches " but if you look at both a map of that area in addition to the ADS-B data plot, the Warrior previously had made their downwind-base final turns much more extended out and almost to the eastern shoreline of Lake Hartridge before turning base/final. This time, when the midair occurred it was on the far western shore of the Lake Hartridge and the downwind to base turn occurred at an altitude of less than 500 feet.
So the J3 didn't even have a handheld radio? I have flown a J3 and used a handheld radio, foreflight with a Sentry to monitor traffic. i am not sure why anyone would fly without these basic safety tools today.
You are assuming. There was an instructor in each of the planes.
I was just about to ask if those 3D graphics were done in FS2020 (I got it recently and, as I will never be able to get a medical, I've been doing a *lot* of flying in it), but then I saw the credit at the end. Impressive that a consumer-level sim is now good enough to be used for depicting safety-of-flight issues like this.
Meanwhile, I think the single simplest solution here would be to change Winter Haven's RWY 05 pattern to a right-hand pattern, to reduce the odds of such head-on closing situations between landplanes on approach to 05 and seaplanes coming back to the seaplane base. Perfect solution? No, but it would certainly reduce the risk in and of itself, regardless of equipment on either aircraft.
Between the information provided in these videos and FS2020, it's quite possible to plan out and fly some of the routes they talk about and really SEE how easy it is to get into trouble. Ones like the high altitude flight that went up the wrong mountain valley and couldn't turn round or go over really hit home the level of prolonged helplessness you end up with from one mistake.
I was thinking maybe have the seaplanes follow the southern edge of the lake as they come in, but I suspect there are noise restrictions in place that make both solutions impossible. What are saved lives and extra safety in exchange for some noise that would be blocked out with a bit of double glazing and insulation?
But the Warrior should not have been stationary in the J3's windscreen since it had just turned base. That's a 90 degree turn with wings banking and un-banking, so no way would it have been stationary. But it is crazy to me that they are allowed to operate at the sea plane base without radio, so close to another airport. That is just an accident waiting to happen and sadly it now did.
Was the Warrior's ADS-B capable of pinpointing its very last altitude (from GPS?) as it collided with the J3 Cub? I am not informed how it operates but I imagine it would have, I guess, as preliminary NTSB report indicates where the collision occured.
Yeah, it was totally worth saving a few quid on ADS-B and radio equipment.
At least a handheld, for monitoring and callouts in the pattern.
1. The seaplane approach conflicts with the circuit.
2. The seaplane ops is not synched with the Airport. It should be treated as another runway.
3. What happened in the airport tower.
4. Might be worth checking with LHR, as there's a flying club just to the west.
Got my float rating in a j3 about 30 years ago, at JBSB, got a feeling the club in the accident was the plane I used
I flew the Cherokee in the crash many times
Why would the J3 not have ADSB out? I thought current regs required ALL aircraft to have ADSB out as of a few years ago.
This is so sad. I cant help wonder what the instructors where looking at when entering a know busy airport area...
As long as the regulations don't require pilots to talk at uncontrolled airports, things like this will continue to happen which is ridiculous because this accident was 100% preventable. All that J-3 needed on board was a handheld radio which could have been bought on ebay for under $100. In 14 years of flying I've had two close calls and both of them involved THE OTHER PILOT not communicating on the frequency.
Unconscionable to not have at least a radio in the J3.
No adsb and no radio in a non-towered airport flying the wrong way through the pattern?!? Bad idea right? Ok we’ll twist the altimeter knob before takeoff, perfectly safe… what’s the worst that could happen.
It would be fascinating to hear the logic behind not having a radio and adsb from the Cub driver.
The only reason is cost. And that cost is not more than a few hundred for at least a portable radio. Truly silly stuff.
Adsb would have done nothing
@@KaisTheFireWarrior
Can you expand on the conclusivity of your statement?
@@MyGoogleRUclips both aircraft don't have the gear to SEE other aircraft with ADSB, I know the cub don't because it has no electrical, and I definitely know the Cherokee didn't because I used to fly that plane and it doesn't even have a GPS installed let alone a screen to see other aircraft
So if the cub had ADSB, it wouldn't have saved anyone.
@@KaisTheFireWarrior Thank you for the explanation.
I was listening to a podcast about medical supply drones, and how it was so much easier to impliment them in Rwanda than in the States. Because EVERY aircraft in Rwanda has to have ADSB or the equivalent, maintaining seperation isn't a difficult problem there. It never occured to me that a country like the US hasn't made it mandatory for all aircraft to be so equipped. The cost of the equipment and fitment is so trivial compared to the costs of ownership, maintenance and insurance of an aircraft. We're a quarter way through the 21st century -how is this still a thing?
I wonder how many privately owned aircraft there are in Rwanda.
Where I live it is only mandatory if you are going into controlled airspace. Otherwise it is visual flight rules as in you have to visually keep separation from other aircraft as you can not assume they have a radio or transponder.
Catherine makes a good point here, too. But as we "saturate" our airspace in the U.S., there are going to be further requirements put in place that allow for an automated separation of aircraft of all types. It's just like putting signal lights on highways/streets and "cloverleaf intersections" on freeways. Higher density in any transportation system requires more control to operate safely.
R.I.P TO FAITH AND ZACHARY!!! I knew faith for about 4 years she was a classmate of mine during instrument ground I stopped training for 2 years and came back and she became a flight instructor.. I spoke to her 3 weeks ago and I can't believe this happened. I go to sunrise currently and we've been closed for 2 weeks. .. can't believe this. Winter Haven airport is literally 5min away from my house. And I used to see the yellow cub fly past my house all the time... what a tragedy
I made a comment before watching the video. And this was the first time I heard the radio call recording... I I'm so upset man.
@@jflightexpthat was the hardest part of this video for sure
I just read a huge amount of the comments, here, and people bring up some great points.
1. By FAA Regulations that old aircraft doesn't require a radio, ADS-B, or a transponder. In modern times this a recipe for a collision. I fly with an instructor that has a WWII-vintage Cub equipped with a radio, but no transponder or ADS-B out. He does fly with ForeFlight and a Sentry Lite ADS-B receiver. At least have something, never have nothing.
2. Looking out the window constantly scanning for traffic: Obviously yes there's no argument against that, but here's my technology argument. I drive my wife's Subaru with Eye Sight. When it's on, it will not permit me to hit the car in front of me. I can be picking something up off the floor not looking forward and it will automatically slam on my brakes if the car ahead of me slammed on its brakes. Technology is here to assist humans. ADS-B alone won't auto-pilot an aircraft away from a collision, but it will warn the pilot of another aircraft in proximity so the pilot can look for the other aircraft.
3. BLUETOOTH HEADSETS!!!! I didn't read anyone mention that ForeFlight on an iPad with ADS-B from an ADS-B receiver like my Sentry ANNUNCIATES the ADS-B/TIS-B traffic warning loud and clear in my A20 Bluetooth headsets. All day long I'm HEARING "Traffic 2 o'clock 3 miles same altitude", in my Bluetooth A20. This argument that pilots have to look down at their screens to notice ADS-B traffic is simply not true with Bluetooth.
4. TIS-B. A transponder generates your position and modern ADS-B/TIS-B is broadcasted by towers to ADS-B receivers like Sentry and GDL-50/52 and ANNUNCIATED by ForeFlight. While this isn't always 100% reliable (your signal must make it to ATC and you have to be in range of a tower) every possibility to display your position to another aircraft helps.
5. Do they really have to have a converging traffic pattern for that sea base ????
TIS-B isn't needed at close range, ADS-B in devices will pick up the other transponders directly. If the FAA would just allow battery powered portable ADS-B out units, you could make cheap low power units that would work just fine for collision avoidance.
Two days prior to this there was a fatal crash at Lantana airport in Palm Beach county. Flight instructor and student pilot were ferrying a Diamond DA40, N804ER, from Kentucky. The pilot was an experienced flight instructor with over 700 hours, and an unknown amount of additional flight hours in his 5 years flying helicopters in the Army. The crash was just off of Runway 28 numbers seemingly after an approach for Rwy 10. Very disheartening to say the least.
ADS-B
High wing / low wing blind spots could have factored in as well. Seems less likely if the collision was head on though.
A question that lingers in my mind (having spent a day at Jack Brown's a week before this tragedy, in its radio-equipped Super Cub) was why the Polk State Warrior chose to do pattern work at Winter Haven when other relatively quiet airports - with no seaplane operations - were available, and not much further from Lakeland than Winter Haven. I'm thinking here in particular of Bartow Executive (towered) and Lake Wales.
I also want to caution strongly against believing that ADS-B is some kind of a cure-all when it comes to avoiding mid-air collisions. It's a helpful technology for sure, but it has serious and well-documented limitations. All too often in my own flying experience, even in pancake-flat Florida in a late-model technologically advanced aircraft, I've visually spotted other aircraft - both in the vicinity of an airport and even en route - that never popped up on the "fish finder".
It's unfortunate that it has to take lost of 4 lives to consider safety protocols to make that area safer. I have a feeling at minimum FAA should ban touch on goes for Winter Haven airport and also bring Seaplane base operators to modern aviation by requiring ADSB and radios in all their airplanes.
Seems pretty clear. High wing and low wing aircraft in conflict wing configurations create a blind spot with the two planes at slightly different altitudes. Classic collision hazard discussed in private pilot ground school as well as the handbook.
Why wouldn't the Cub enter the pattern, then break it off at the key position, and proceed to the lake to the south, away from the pattern?
I can understand not having ADSB or it being an expensive outlay for budget ranged aviation but radios should be mandatory on any aircraft that requires a licence or is above a certain weight and size.
Never approached Brown's that way on many flights there. Very unusual and not in conformance I believe with their standard procedure to fly close to Gilbert Field there and under that traffic pattern . Always approached from the north , east or due south of Jack Brown's and not by flying over the close by lakes other than Lake Jessie. In my opinion seaplane should not have been there.
Thanks, but quite a useless opinion. I have know people who think all 'little aircraft' should not be there.
I like having ADS-B in our aircraft…although it’s not 100% full proof it helps keep myself and my family safer while flying
Why would you not even have a handheld at this point?!?! While I’ve met some of the greatest people in the pilot community, I’ve also encountered some of the most arrogant and inconsiderate. Completely avoidable and a damn shame.
At Swansea UK it’s busy with high wing Icarus and low wing P38 planes from both schools…can’t imagine life with no radios…there are still close calls…yesterday with Icarus taxing to T/O with me on final. This with parachuting adjacent.
Wow. No handheld radio, no portable ADS-B in receiver (like a Sentry) paired with Foreflight. Things that just makes sense to have when your plane has no electrical.
It is the "independent, purist, no distractions" flying culture pitted up against the "technology assistance minded" culture showing up in this matter and the conversation we are seeing here. And just like this midair collision, they are continuing to collide.
Wouldn’t a hand held radio be an option for the Cub?
Yes, some cub pilots use hand heads.
Yes.
Absolutely. A Sporty's PJ2 even accepts regular aviation headset plugs without adapters...
It wouldn't have made a difference in this case and maybe would have exacerbated the problem.
@@KeithWhittingham I totally disagree. The J3 would have known there was a plane announcing base. Totally irresponsible of the flight school not to equip their Cubs with handheld radios.
The FAA needs to require ADS-B and radios in all aircraft for controlled airspace (Class A, Class B, Class C, Class D, and Class E airspace). The safety of pilots should be its utmost responsibility. Even while a pilot may be looking for traffic, a low wing planes and high wing planes have their blind spots. If the Cub had a radio, the Cub could have heard where the Warrior was in its traffic pattern and take appropriate action and vice versa. It amazes me the Cub would fly into the traffic pattern and not go the other way. It could be because it is Mode C and the Cub does not have a transponder.
If the actual MSL altitude is zero on the water - wouldn't the actual MSL altitude at Winterhaven be 143 feet ?
Runway 11/29 shows to be Elevation: 143.0 ft.
How about requiring radios (hand held) for Jack Brown planes?
Given the small margins for error and lack of radios, the midair was bound to happen sooner or later. Having no communications and conflicting flight paths is a recipe for disaster. A handheld VHF could have prevented four fatalities.