No, no you’re quite wrong with the caption in the thumbnail. It’s probably best that you don’t try to surmise what other people do and do not have in their heads. As we’ll see below, you statistically haven’t got the capacity to imagine what other people may or may not know. Spaced armour* is for defeating projectiles. It ruins the necessary standoff distance of shaped-charge ammunition and causes ball ammunition to run untrue, thereby limiting its stopping power via a tumble or a deflection. Say, do try to remember that you are a RUclipsr. Statistically you’ve got fewer brain cells than the average cabbage. Though, you may be of the tiny percentage (it’s something very low, less than 3%) that isn’t cabbagesque, though from what I’ve heard in the past, I’m sticking with the stats. *How it’s spelt when using the English Language albeit a French word fog up. Unless you think you’re French of course… Most Americans pretend to be anything other than American, though I don’t suppose anyone should blame them for that. If I woke up from this dream to find myself an American citizen, in America. I’d be very thankful of the ease in which one can secure oneself a firearm over there.
I know the original purpose. Stopping AT rifles. The sides of panzer 3, 4, and early panthers were thin enough at rifles could penetrate them. That’s why the panther G and on have a thicker side to stop them
Yes, you are correct. The side skirts would cause the AT rifle rounds to tumble after penetrating the side skirting, robbing them of the energy needed to penetrate the actual side armor of the tank.
@@christophervanoster You have collect it from Eric Iddle he might make you sing for it Spam! Spam! Spam! Spam! Lovely spam! Wonderful spam! Spam spa-a-a-a-a-am spam spa-a-a-a-a-am spam Lovely spam! Lovely spam! Lovely spam! Lovely spam! Spam spam spam spam!
Those plate pieces (4x4s or 6x8s) with flat (non studded) tops plus those little wing wedge pieces that are common in Star Wars sets are a good solution. They're widely available in gray, too.
@@gen1945the technic beam pieces with the holes along the side might work? Using the pin swivel joints that have a bit of a standoff might work. Then maybe using those low profile 2x1 L brackets to clip to the plate, but on the perpenticule end stick a 1x2 technic piece with a hole to receive the standoff joint. It would be more sturdy and wouldn't require using super glue or anything.
The Schurzen make the Panzer IV look more modern from the side, a very cool aesthetic. Unlike the body kit my friend put on his 1994 Acura Integra. Makes it just look all janky with that goofy wing and everything.
Fun fact about spacing of HEAT rounds. I-TOW achived over 20% increase just byt puting fuse on a thingy. Due to this US soldiers were issuied instruction that in case of war one can simply upgrade TOW to I-TOW by slaping wooden pole of specified diameter and length
With putting some to protect both turret and hull of the later-model Panzer IVs, from a distance, a "greenhorn" US tanker might mistake them for a Tiger. This is probably why so many accounts of facing Tiger tanks and getting the worse of it, when the German records indicate no Tiger units were in that area.
THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU! For properly explaining the mechanisms or HEAT rounds. This is the best casual/enthusiast explanation I have seen about them.
I've been watching your videos for a while now, it's nice to see the face behind the voice. Keep up the great work you do. More of you would be great...you do it well.
I made the classic blunder when playing Battlegroup a while back. Thought I'd save some points and didn't put skirts on my StuG. It most definitely did not get destroyed by a lucky shot from a Soviet anti-tank rifle through the side in a way that it would've survived had it been given skirts.
Before I watch - originally intended against AT rifles. Note that the first German tanks these things appeared on were Panzer III and IV - they had something around 30mm of side armour - which could be penetrated by Soviet AT-rifles, such as PTRD-41 at relatively long distances even. Hilariously - Soviets initially believed these side skirts were made to make the identification of the vehicles more difficult - disguising older tanks as Tigers.
Outstanding video on spaced armor that's richly illustrated, it provides an excellent tutorial on the aspects of both the armor and the weapons designed to defeat it, very well done! 👍
Fascinating video, really enjoyed that one. Since the Soviets looked at a prototype "T-44-100" which featured 6mm thick skirts for anti-HEAT purposes and yet the following T-54/55/62 lacked these entirely, they most likely came to a similar if not the same conclusion? Keep up the great work with the videos. 👍👍
The Soviets played around with side skirts and other spaced armor of various types during the cold war but most of the time it ends up being more of a hassle than its worth. Integrating composite materials into your armor seems to be the best solution
@@verysurvival Sorry right away, Schürzen is plural so changing the title to “what were Schürzen actually for” would be more accurate. Brother I think the title of a video is more important than someone’s comment on it, so my grammar barely matters in this case
Thing is the Red Army issued these AT rifles in huge numbers. Like on Platoon level. So every time a german tank attacked, it was pretty much sure to be fire at by these rifles. Even if the rounds didn't penetrate (the theoretical max penetration that might penetrate a Panther's side armor required point blank range) they could do damage to tracks and exposed equipment and if nothing else, un nerve the crew by constant hits. So protection against 14,5mm AT rifles as essential even if they rarely killed any of the german medium tanks outright, even in 1941.
Similar style of sideplates also exists under the name of breaker plate, where a relatively thin but extremely well-hardened piece was used as spaced armor, because it was not technically possible at the time to make THICK such well-hardened plates(or rather, at least not in massproduction), they couldn't be used as part of the overall armor, but placed as spaced plates, using only the thinner plates, they were meant to deform KE penetrators, or "defang" the EFPs of HEAT warheads(because the extreme hardness of the plate means that the EFP takes slightly more energy to penetrate, which means that when it hits the main armor, it is more blunted and slightly slower, meaning that the armor has greater chance of stopping it). "schurzen" Came about at least in part specifically due to the rapid deployment of the PTRD and PTRS 14.5mm rifles that USSR put over 400 thousand in service during WWII. As these were of such high penetration and caliber that they were capable of serious damage against anything without enough armor. Going through 30mm was common, 20mm was effectively guaranteed, and 40mm was not unheard of, even more happened.
To stop antitank rifles. The Fins, did a better job, they just bolted extra armor to the weak spots, then they didn't have to worry about the skirts getting pulled off on trees etc.
Glass at certain thicknesses is more effective than the same thickness of steel. You also get the benefit of reduced weight over steel which is why you see glass and other materials used for composite armor. According to one of the documents they rated it about equal to aluminum. Gets into a lot of math regards to the forces at play and the density of materials which I didn't really want to delve into for this particular video
Were the wire mesh schurzen also originally designed to defeat AT rifle rounds? Or was the wire mesh less effective against AT rifle rounds and more intended to defeat shaped charges? Thank you in advance.
@@ConeOfArc Thank you for your quick reply! I was wondering if the wire mesh would be less effective against AT rifle rounds given the open spaces in the mesh, but perhaps they were a tight enough mesh to also have a high percentage chance of interfering with AT rifle rounds as well. Thanks, again!
It's funny that the Allies used anti-tank rifles, like the Boyes , early in the war.. 1939-40 era but found them near useless against anything other than an armoured car, half-track or panzer 1... Even panzer 11 and 111 were near impervious. But soviets used anti-tank rifles years after...
Protection against anti-rifles and the spalling caused by those rounds,. Anti-rifles rarely penetrated but they did cause spalling. When the Germans were fighting the Russians in 1941. the Rsusians had alot of ATR's shooting at German AFV's . Through sheer number of Russian this was an issue causing causing casualties. It was worse with German SPG's since singular vehicles had no flank "offense" to knock out such ATR's taking pot shots at them. Armor skirts later worked against "sticky" bombs of course, and then they worked against HEAT rounds . There is no question about it. But the original German skirts were never intended as HEAT /spaced armor round protection , but they did so at times as the war progressed.
Interesting weapon tech, thanks! I saw AT rifles used heavily in a Soviet film about the Battle of Kursk (Liberation on the Mosfilm channel) and didn't take it as being realistic. I was wrong!
The effectiveness of spaced armor depends not only on the thickness of the extra armor but also the space between the armor and the main tank armor. The effective jet from a HEAT warhead is a fixed distance. The jet treats the empty space the same as actual armor. So for example f the HEAT warhead will penetrate 100mm/10cm of armor like the original bazooka had the penetrating jet only would go that far and still be effective. So a plate thick enough to detonate the warhead 10cm away from the tank’s main armor has the same effect of adding 10cm of armor to the tank and would totally prevent the warhead from damaging it. This stopped being as effective when warheads started getting more and more powerful so the spaced armor would need to be further and farther away from the tank.
Yes and no. The air between the spaced armor and the main armor does reduce the penetration slightly, but the jet is not a fixed length. You can see proof of this in the video clip of the BMP being shot as the jet goes MUCH further than the ~400mm of penetration that weapon can achieve. To effectively stop a HEAT round you either need an astronomical amount of spacing before the main armor plate or something denser than air. That is why composites work well at stopping HEAT because they are able to reduce the energy before it achieves penetration.
@@ConeOfArc Indeed.If memory serves correctly US Ordnance depot did a study on this in 1944 fixing a sherman with specially made plastic or plastic-cement compound.. The results was that the amount of physical layering required made it beefier than a jumbo, very little overal improvement in protection,and massive amount of added weight, along with the added issues.
I always believed the side skirts or called screens. And were used to protect against heat and explosive ammunitions. Mainly because of games. But don't really realized the real purpose in real life. If you watched World of Tanks video on how shells work, you know screens and space armor are resistant to those shells.
It's a weird case of it being a half truth because spaced armor does do a little to reduce some heat shells, but overall it's fairly ineffective against them. HEAT rounds in general are a largely misunderstood topic and I learned a lot myself while working on this video
If you ever feel silly for falling for myths about Second World War armour, remember that the 'authoritative' texts of the 80s, those that are *still* sold by institutions like The Tank Museum (though sometimes with qualifications), explicitly state that Schutzen was for HEAT. They also say some other nonsense which has since been overtaken by common sense.
@ConeOfArc the internet has done so much for our ability to argue with each other. And sometimes, if we're lucky,it results in genuinely intelligent people realising they were wrong about something. The evolving 'status quo' on WW2 armour is very interesting to watch
Slat armor is still a form of spaced armor. I did not really get into the modern forms of spaced armor during this video though as it is not super relevant to the topic of Schürzen. As I mentioned in the video though there are modern systems which function differently than typical spaced plates
Glass at certain thicknesses is more effective than the same thickness of steel. You also get the benefit of reduced weight over steel which is why you see glass and other materials used for composite armor. According to one of the documents they rated it about equal to aluminum. Gets into a lot of math regards to the forces at play and the density of materials which I didn't really want to delve into for this particular video
nope. You've just read that only book where its very famous author made that mistake and you're just repeating it. You mean to say that the Russians had rifles that could destroy German tanks? No need for field cannons or AT cannons? Really? No, Russian "anti-tank" rifles were useless during WWII, like all other similar weapons in the world. In fact, it was the specific explosive used by the Russians in APHE shells that made the Russian shells explode very easily. This 5-10mm thick screen on sides of German tanks, could not stop Russian APHE projectile, but it detonated the shells explosive outside the tank, and only projectile fragments reached the actual armor. Just in case, I repeat: I'm not talking about HEAT shells. We are talking about Russian APHE shells.
I read the original German documents showing Hitler approving the side skirts for use against AT rifles. The German trials showed that the side skirts were useless against larger AT weapons www.panzer-elmito.org/panzertruppe/temas_diversos/informes/panzerschuerzen_06-02-1943_D.html
The PIAT's warhead was devastating IF it impacted normally to the targeted armor plate. The trouble was, it was a short-range weapon to being with. A "Tommy" had to get close to the tank in order to have a chance against it, and was likely to be taken out by panzergrenadiers, other German tanks firing MGs at their threatened "brother" to ward off stalkers, or grenades launched from the tank itself. If fired from more than about 25 yards, the weapon had to be "arced" to reach the target, and this make it likely that the warhead would detonate away from a "normal" direction, making its HEAT jet of superheated molten metal ineffective against the target's armor. FWIW, this was the same problem with the German Panzerfaust and Panzerschrek weapons, and unlike the PIAT, their back blast was a hazard to the assistant, and also gave away the weapon's position. The German "solution" was to get agile, nimble teenagers of the "HiterJugend" to wield these things in often suicidal attacks against Allied and Soviet armor, in hopes of being decorated by their Fuhrer, I suppose.
APHE is fairly simple, the shell enters the armor and a bursting charge inside it explodes. This creates a secondary bit of shrapnel outside of the frags caused by the shell piercing the armor making it more deadly. Where games like War Thunder get it wrong is they make the fragmentation as a sphere when it should be a cone from where it detonates
@@gumarkuk depends on the exact shell. Contact or sometimes proximity fusing. Timer would not be practical as it'd need manual setting prior to every shot based on the distance to target, seriously slowing down the rate of fire. Plus the delay would be too short to be accurate given the relatively crude nature of WW2 timers (many had the delays measured in hours with an accuracy of 10-20 minutes).
Grab some of my merch now and save 5% with the code CONEFRIDAY until December 6th: coneofarc.gunjigraphics.com
if i were to be older i would have
No, no you’re quite wrong with the caption in the thumbnail. It’s probably best that you don’t try to surmise what other people do and do not have in their heads. As we’ll see below, you statistically haven’t got the capacity to imagine what other people may or may not know.
Spaced armour* is for defeating projectiles. It ruins the necessary standoff distance of shaped-charge ammunition and causes ball ammunition to run untrue, thereby limiting its stopping power via a tumble or a deflection.
Say, do try to remember that you are a RUclipsr. Statistically you’ve got fewer brain cells than the average cabbage. Though, you may be of the tiny percentage (it’s something very low, less than 3%) that isn’t cabbagesque, though from what I’ve heard in the past, I’m sticking with the stats.
*How it’s spelt when using the English Language albeit a French word fog up. Unless you think you’re French of course… Most Americans pretend to be anything other than American, though I don’t suppose anyone should blame them for that. If I woke up from this dream to find myself an American citizen, in America. I’d be very thankful of the ease in which one can secure oneself a firearm over there.
The Schurzen side skirts were initially intended to protect against anti-tank rifle projectiles, weren't they?
Pin this comment
Yes, later they helped stop Heat rounds. Just another benefit.
_"The Skirts side skirts"_
Ok, ok, we get it, you're talking about skirts, right? 😘
There’s a video about that on RUclips 😂😂😂😂
And worked against larger AT projectiles and worked against HEAT.
I know the original purpose. Stopping AT rifles. The sides of panzer 3, 4, and early panthers were thin enough at rifles could penetrate them. That’s why the panther G and on have a thicker side to stop them
Yes, you are correct. The side skirts would cause the AT rifle rounds to tumble after penetrating the side skirting, robbing them of the energy needed to penetrate the actual side armor of the tank.
You just won a 50-year-old case of Spam.
@@wwmoggy Only 50-years-old? So it's still well within its "best by" date. Score!
@@wwmoggy awesome. So is it being shipped or do I need to collect it myself?
@@christophervanoster You have collect it from Eric Iddle he might make you sing for it Spam! Spam! Spam! Spam!
Lovely spam! Wonderful spam!
Spam spa-a-a-a-a-am spam spa-a-a-a-a-am spam
Lovely spam! Lovely spam! Lovely spam! Lovely spam!
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All I know is that the schurzen makes it really hard to make a custom lego model of a panzer 4
Those plate pieces (4x4s or 6x8s) with flat (non studded) tops plus those little wing wedge pieces that are common in Star Wars sets are a good solution. They're widely available in gray, too.
@ the hard part is getting that connected to the hull. ive tried every possible connection type and all of them fall off easily
@@gen1945the technic beam pieces with the holes along the side might work? Using the pin swivel joints that have a bit of a standoff might work. Then maybe using those low profile 2x1 L brackets to clip to the plate, but on the perpenticule end stick a 1x2 technic piece with a hole to receive the standoff joint. It would be more sturdy and wouldn't require using super glue or anything.
I like my shutzen when it’s made of LEGO because I love attaching crap tons of leaves to it
The Schurzen make the Panzer IV look more modern from the side, a very cool aesthetic. Unlike the body kit my friend put on his 1994 Acura Integra. Makes it just look all janky with that goofy wing and everything.
Interesting fact:
_The Integra performs horribly against anti-tank rifles despite being over 50 years younger._
Also had a tendency to kick dust right into the air intakes or fall off. Reports from the field aren't too positive about them
@ConeOfArc for every action....
@@sergeipohkerova7211 Spicerack
Finally someone properly explains stand-off distance and why spaced armor can work both for and against you
Fun fact about spacing of HEAT rounds. I-TOW achived over 20% increase just byt puting fuse on a thingy. Due to this US soldiers were issuied instruction that in case of war one can simply upgrade TOW to I-TOW by slaping wooden pole of specified diameter and length
The biggest advantage of Schurzen was that they made Pz III, Pz IV and StuG III the most beautiful tanks of WW2.
With putting some to protect both turret and hull of the later-model Panzer IVs, from a distance, a "greenhorn" US tanker might mistake them for a Tiger. This is probably why so many accounts of facing Tiger tanks and getting the worse of it, when the German records indicate no Tiger units were in that area.
THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU! For properly explaining the mechanisms or HEAT rounds. This is the best casual/enthusiast explanation I have seen about them.
I've been watching your videos for a while now, it's nice to see the face behind the voice. Keep up the great work you do. More of you would be great...you do it well.
I made the classic blunder when playing Battlegroup a while back. Thought I'd save some points and didn't put skirts on my StuG. It most definitely did not get destroyed by a lucky shot from a Soviet anti-tank rifle through the side in a way that it would've survived had it been given skirts.
Before I watch - originally intended against AT rifles. Note that the first German tanks these things appeared on were Panzer III and IV - they had something around 30mm of side armour - which could be penetrated by Soviet AT-rifles, such as PTRD-41 at relatively long distances even.
Hilariously - Soviets initially believed these side skirts were made to make the identification of the vehicles more difficult - disguising older tanks as Tigers.
Great video as always bro! The fact that you were able to show irl footage was sick af
Excellent analysis!
Big thanks to Armored Archives!
gerrmany: makes 45 ton panther which is almost immune from fire to the front
Soviet guy with a big rifle: I’m about to end this man’s whole career
5 mm steel that attached on the side of the Panther: "Nein"
Outstanding video on spaced armor that's richly illustrated, it provides an excellent tutorial on the aspects of both the armor and the weapons designed to defeat it, very well done! 👍
It also have unintentional effect of making tank nerds aroused
Great content. Thank you!
Fascinating video, really enjoyed that one. Since the Soviets looked at a prototype "T-44-100" which featured 6mm thick skirts for anti-HEAT purposes and yet the following T-54/55/62 lacked these entirely, they most likely came to a similar if not the same conclusion? Keep up the great work with the videos. 👍👍
The Soviets played around with side skirts and other spaced armor of various types during the cold war but most of the time it ends up being more of a hassle than its worth. Integrating composite materials into your armor seems to be the best solution
you just explained how HEAT rounds dont function how I exactly thought they did, and for that I learned something new.
There's spaced armor and then there's turtle tanks!🤣🤣
One of the best explanations I've seen... TY!
I know it’s not a tank, but I’d love to see a video on the M26 Dragon Wagon someday. It’s definitely one of my favorite vehicles.
WT taught me that, no HEAT won't be stopped cus the jet of the heat is still powerful enough, even if detonating with some air gaps.
Excellent Presentation 👍👍👍
5:19 california's big squirt 💀
Sorry right away, Schürzen is plural so changing it to what were Schürzen actually for would be more accurate
Funny to complain about language with an incomprehensible sentence 😂😂😂😂😂
@@verysurvival Sorry right away, Schürzen is plural so changing the title to “what were Schürzen actually for” would be more accurate. Brother I think the title of a video is more important than someone’s comment on it, so my grammar barely matters in this case
Missed ya cone, hope you’re doing well man and keep up the excellent work
Schürzen makes tank look cooler
Thing is the Red Army issued these AT rifles in huge numbers. Like on Platoon level. So every time a german tank attacked, it was pretty much sure to be fire at by these rifles. Even if the rounds didn't penetrate (the theoretical max penetration that might penetrate a Panther's side armor required point blank range) they could do damage to tracks and exposed equipment and if nothing else, un nerve the crew by constant hits. So protection against 14,5mm AT rifles as essential even if they rarely killed any of the german medium tanks outright, even in 1941.
Similar style of sideplates also exists under the name of breaker plate, where a relatively thin but extremely well-hardened piece was used as spaced armor, because it was not technically possible at the time to make THICK such well-hardened plates(or rather, at least not in massproduction), they couldn't be used as part of the overall armor, but placed as spaced plates, using only the thinner plates, they were meant to deform KE penetrators, or "defang" the EFPs of HEAT warheads(because the extreme hardness of the plate means that the EFP takes slightly more energy to penetrate, which means that when it hits the main armor, it is more blunted and slightly slower, meaning that the armor has greater chance of stopping it).
"schurzen"
Came about at least in part specifically due to the rapid deployment of the PTRD and PTRS 14.5mm rifles that USSR put over 400 thousand in service during WWII.
As these were of such high penetration and caliber that they were capable of serious damage against anything without enough armor. Going through 30mm was common, 20mm was effectively guaranteed, and 40mm was not unheard of, even more happened.
„What were the Schürzen actually for?“ would be correct
To stop antitank rifles.
The Fins, did a better job, they just bolted extra armor to the weak spots, then they didn't have to worry about the skirts getting pulled off on trees etc.
4:18 Wait what’s this about glass being effective against HEAT?
Glass at certain thicknesses is more effective than the same thickness of steel. You also get the benefit of reduced weight over steel which is why you see glass and other materials used for composite armor. According to one of the documents they rated it about equal to aluminum. Gets into a lot of math regards to the forces at play and the density of materials which I didn't really want to delve into for this particular video
Since the schurzen were very light weight they also acted as flotation devices to help the vehicles with river crossings.
As long as you remembered to inflate them!
Curator cone of arc at the tank museum
Dig Skirtz😮😂❤❤❤Looks Kool, even put them on a "Whirlwind" I built ...even made them for cars that didn't have them
Were the wire mesh schurzen also originally designed to defeat AT rifle rounds? Or was the wire mesh less effective against AT rifle rounds and more intended to defeat shaped charges? Thank you in advance.
From what I read the wire mesh was about as effective as the solid plates and was lighter. IIRC the only issue was it was more costly to make them
@@ConeOfArc Thank you for your quick reply! I was wondering if the wire mesh would be less effective against AT rifle rounds given the open spaces in the mesh, but perhaps they were a tight enough mesh to also have a high percentage chance of interfering with AT rifle rounds as well. Thanks, again!
That's the question I also had, re mesh skirts
@@davidk6269 According to the German test report both performed the same
As far as i remember, the wire mesh variant was issued because they found out that the original one tend to clogged dust and dirt inside
It's funny that the Allies used anti-tank rifles, like the Boyes , early in the war.. 1939-40 era but found them near useless against anything other than an armoured car, half-track or panzer 1... Even panzer 11 and 111 were near impervious. But soviets used anti-tank rifles years after...
Why didn't the Germans put side skirts on 251 halftracks too? Given they usually accompany with Panzer IVs and faced AT rifles fire too.
I remember watching a vid on the ptrs-41, and hearing that Germans installed the skirts to stop the rifle
what *were* Schürzen for*
Noch ein deutscher find ich gut
@@anton33779 Ja, leider juckt das den Ami nich
Jep it buggs me too
Protection against anti-rifles and the spalling caused by those rounds,.
Anti-rifles rarely penetrated but they did cause spalling. When the Germans were fighting the Russians in 1941. the Rsusians had alot of ATR's shooting at German AFV's . Through sheer number of Russian this was an issue causing causing casualties. It was worse with German SPG's since singular vehicles had no flank "offense" to knock out such ATR's taking pot shots at them.
Armor skirts later worked against "sticky" bombs of course, and then they worked against HEAT rounds .
There is no question about it. But the original German skirts were never intended as HEAT /spaced armor round protection , but they did so at times as the war progressed.
Interesting weapon tech, thanks! I saw AT rifles used heavily in a Soviet film about the Battle of Kursk (Liberation on the Mosfilm channel) and didn't take it as being realistic. I was wrong!
Cool vid, thanks!
I need to revisit the Heritage Museum.
I could tell that was the AHM.
Give the people more Jumbo Shermans.
The effectiveness of spaced armor depends not only on the thickness of the extra armor but also the space between the armor and the main tank armor. The effective jet from a HEAT warhead is a fixed distance. The jet treats the empty space the same as actual armor. So for example f the HEAT warhead will penetrate 100mm/10cm of armor like the original bazooka had the penetrating jet only would go that far and still be effective. So a plate thick enough to detonate the warhead 10cm away from the tank’s main armor has the same effect of adding 10cm of armor to the tank and would totally prevent the warhead from damaging it. This stopped being as effective when warheads started getting more and more powerful so the spaced armor would need to be further and farther away from the tank.
It's incredible how you can be so wrong so confidently
Yes and no. The air between the spaced armor and the main armor does reduce the penetration slightly, but the jet is not a fixed length. You can see proof of this in the video clip of the BMP being shot as the jet goes MUCH further than the ~400mm of penetration that weapon can achieve. To effectively stop a HEAT round you either need an astronomical amount of spacing before the main armor plate or something denser than air. That is why composites work well at stopping HEAT because they are able to reduce the energy before it achieves penetration.
@@ConeOfArc Indeed.If memory serves correctly US Ordnance depot did a study on this in 1944 fixing a sherman with specially made plastic or plastic-cement compound.. The results was that the amount of physical layering required made it beefier than a jumbo, very little overal improvement in protection,and massive amount of added weight, along with the added issues.
Modern heat rounds look like missiles
could you please explain the concept of the APFSDS?
The German middle finger to the KV2 lads.
I wanted to know for a while.
I always believed the side skirts or called screens. And were used to protect against heat and explosive ammunitions. Mainly because of games. But don't really realized the real purpose in real life. If you watched World of Tanks video on how shells work, you know screens and space armor are resistant to those shells.
It's a weird case of it being a half truth because spaced armor does do a little to reduce some heat shells, but overall it's fairly ineffective against them. HEAT rounds in general are a largely misunderstood topic and I learned a lot myself while working on this video
Any Warthunder Player will tell you that its protection against AP is nonexistent and against HEAT its... questionable.
Perchance.
Yea
The true reason is to preserve the modesty of your tank and ensure she is properly dressed for public outings.
The title should say what were Schürzen... because you used the plural form
Were*
So, it is what i think
One thing with the title really bugs me. Schürzen is a plural and he uses „was“ instead of „were“.
I wonder if anti-tank rifle veterans suffered from shoulder problems in later life .
Where is that New England Tank Museum?
Link is in the description
@@ConeOfArc Did you just literally update to include 😂
Great video..
But... Maybe more important
How is the chap of Armored Archives? It has been quiet for more then a year on his side.
😢
He's been focused on projects outside of RUclips
@ConeOfArc
Thanks, I always loved that guy.
Such a loss for the youtube viewer.
If you talk to him, say we (I) miss him.
interesting
If you ever feel silly for falling for myths about Second World War armour, remember that the 'authoritative' texts of the 80s, those that are *still* sold by institutions like The Tank Museum (though sometimes with qualifications), explicitly state that Schutzen was for HEAT.
They also say some other nonsense which has since been overtaken by common sense.
Part of that confusion comes from the original testing being done prior to them knowing what they were for
@ConeOfArc the internet has done so much for our ability to argue with each other.
And sometimes, if we're lucky,it results in genuinely intelligent people realising they were wrong about something.
The evolving 'status quo' on WW2 armour is very interesting to watch
Soviet anti tank rifles which reeked havoc on Soviet tanks on the eastern front
Dude, you are mixing spaced armor and slat armor against shaped charges.
Slat armor is still a form of spaced armor. I did not really get into the modern forms of spaced armor during this video though as it is not super relevant to the topic of Schürzen. As I mentioned in the video though there are modern systems which function differently than typical spaced plates
Is it for at rifles ? Then it is what I think
These skirts were big canvases for crews to paint sexy women on them
World of tanks was right all along
Glass is more effective than spaced armor made of metal. Interesting.
Glass at certain thicknesses is more effective than the same thickness of steel. You also get the benefit of reduced weight over steel which is why you see glass and other materials used for composite armor. According to one of the documents they rated it about equal to aluminum. Gets into a lot of math regards to the forces at play and the density of materials which I didn't really want to delve into for this particular video
@@ConeOfArc Thanks for the additional info. 🙂
@@ConeOfArc how does it play out with tempered/layered glass?
if you played warthunder :D
I know what side skirts do because I invented them.
Just trust me.
nope. You've just read that only book where its very famous author made that mistake and you're just repeating it.
You mean to say that the Russians had rifles that could destroy German tanks? No need for field cannons or AT cannons? Really?
No, Russian "anti-tank" rifles were useless during WWII, like all other similar weapons in the world.
In fact, it was the specific explosive used by the Russians in APHE shells that made the Russian shells explode very easily. This 5-10mm thick screen on sides of German tanks, could not stop Russian APHE projectile, but it detonated the shells explosive outside the tank, and only projectile fragments reached the actual armor.
Just in case, I repeat: I'm not talking about HEAT shells. We are talking about Russian APHE shells.
I read the original German documents showing Hitler approving the side skirts for use against AT rifles. The German trials showed that the side skirts were useless against larger AT weapons
www.panzer-elmito.org/panzertruppe/temas_diversos/informes/panzerschuerzen_06-02-1943_D.html
i think for heat?
No anti tank rifles
@ yeah that too
watch the video maybe?
Not even watching it. It was used to defeat Russian Anti tank rifles
The PIAT's warhead was devastating IF it impacted normally to the targeted armor plate. The trouble was, it was a short-range weapon to being with. A "Tommy" had to get close to the tank in order to have a chance against it, and was likely to be taken out by panzergrenadiers, other German tanks firing MGs at their threatened "brother" to ward off stalkers, or grenades launched from the tank itself. If fired from more than about 25 yards, the weapon had to be "arced" to reach the target, and this make it likely that the warhead would detonate away from a "normal" direction, making its HEAT jet of superheated molten metal ineffective against the target's armor.
FWIW, this was the same problem with the German Panzerfaust and Panzerschrek weapons, and unlike the PIAT, their back blast was a hazard to the assistant, and also gave away the weapon's position. The German "solution" was to get agile, nimble teenagers of the "HiterJugend" to wield these things in often suicidal attacks against Allied and Soviet armor, in hopes of being decorated by their Fuhrer, I suppose.
All I know is that they are a pain in the butt to paint. Heavy and awkward.
I cant find how real APHE work 😢
APHE is fairly simple, the shell enters the armor and a bursting charge inside it explodes. This creates a secondary bit of shrapnel outside of the frags caused by the shell piercing the armor making it more deadly. Where games like War Thunder get it wrong is they make the fragmentation as a sphere when it should be a cone from where it detonates
How explodes was tringger? Timer? Contact fuse?
@@gumarkuk depends on the exact shell. Contact or sometimes proximity fusing.
Timer would not be practical as it'd need manual setting prior to every shot based on the distance to target, seriously slowing down the rate of fire. Plus the delay would be too short to be accurate given the relatively crude nature of WW2 timers (many had the delays measured in hours with an accuracy of 10-20 minutes).
2 point answer:
1. Stopping anti-tank rifle rounds in the early parts of the war.
2. Hindering HEAT weapons in later parts of the war.
rpg 6 been defeated by armor impossible like the German armor is as good of a protection provided from cow fat
Grug Guh (1st)