No need to ever apologise for the "length of your wind", Paul. Of course there are many people who just want the "bare bones" of your answers delivered as quickly as possible. Equally though, there are many of us who like how eloquently you can put "meat on the bones" through your personal experiences and testimony
That was a most enjoyable "long in winded" story Paul - I personally didn't think was too long at all - it showcased and answered the question at hand by sharing some insights into some of those special learning moments and interactions that you enjoyed with Arnie - thanks for sharing, the journey never ends for any of us.
No need for apologies, your humility and honesty is so refreshing, I am totally taken aback, and throughly impressed. BHK preamp, you say...at the time it's an aspirational product, but I'm going to get one. Thanks for sharing.
@Thom Moore but he's talking about BHK preamp not the BHK amp. I've never used a BHK preamp I don't have an opinion about it but, in my humble experience, a good tube preamp improves the sound a lot... or distorts the sound in a beautiful way if you prefer ;)
I have used passive preamps and variable output dacs for a number of years and they do sound fine in isolation. If you are building a system it is a great place to start. However, if you add a good active preamp (preferably valve) you will almost always prefer it. Soundstage opens up, imaging improves, and sense of drive and energy increases and voices are more fleshed out.
I remember those men from your book, and I remember their rising stars from when we were much younger. Its a real shame that today's younger guys don't get to see the truly breath-taking rise of high-fidelity audio like we did. I remember walking into a department store in the Cielo Vista Mall in El Paso in 1976 and looking at the new and awesome Pioneer SX-series receivers. They were so wonderful. Right beside them were the new Marantz units, and right across from their door was another hi-fi store selling equally compelling gear. That's when Maxell made the ad with the kid in the chair with his hair blown back from the JBL LS-100. It made a huge statement that everyone connected with. What a blessing high fidelity reproduction is. So your "long winded" explanations carry the weight of history, and of context. Valuable commodities in the days of "we want the answer now".
Its feels good when answer in my mind matches the one you give. That happens about 90 percent of times. I am not an engeneer but unless its very scintific our explanations don't differ much either. I am consuming too much Paul... lol... Respect for you sir...
All kudos to you Paul, lesser men would not admit to being wrong or outmanned. I like that you just tell the truth as you find it & don't lord it over others when they are wrong and you right, that's pretty rare.
I use my dac as a pre amp, works great. It's an ADI-2 dac and it has XLR outs and all kinds of control. I plan on possibly getting a preamp when I upgrade to monoblocks.
I love your HUMBLENESS. You are a great person. I totally love your knowledge and wisdom about audio equipment. Especially because that's the way you are. I commend you for that. If I ever need any information I always watch one of your videos.
Nice talk, I have experienced this myself. It may be an impedance mismatch or a preamp with bandwidth limitations. Once I connected a cd player to a wonderful amp. It then sounded thin and lacking in bass response. Added a preamp and it sounded amazing. I just needed to keep trying.
The only thing I replaced in my audio system this year was a preamp. That change made my system sound much.much.much better. So I am now a believer in getting the very best preamp you can afford. By the way y new preamp is a Hybrid. Solid state with two tubes.
@Luke Schneider I bought a Frank Van Alstine preamp. Cost about $1100.00. The preamp I retired was also one of Frank's preamp's. I had it for about 8 years or so. Cheers Charlie
Sometimes it depends on the components. Just went to have a good audition of a pair of LS50. Heard them a few times before but never a serious session. So the dealer had a CD player, streamer/DAC and integrated amp from a UK manufacturer. All 3 components are from its midrange series. Same series. The LS50 sounded horrid. Then the dealer removed the streamer/DAC from the chain. The sound opened up a lot. Was much better. It was a $1,500 unit. But ...
awdadw adwad ... ssssshhhh ... you need to keep that a secret. 😂🤣 I know what you are saying. The reviewers have gone past the line in their over enthusiastic reviews.
I have a FiiO X5 hand held DAC/Music player with a digital output, and with an appropriate RCA cable, I have it plugged directly into my Rega BRIO. It works great and I listen to my music collection that is on FLAC file over my speakers.
I did the same thing, I put a Schitt Saga plus preamp between a Dac Magic 200M with a pair of Adam T7V studio monitors and my system literally opened up on a whole different level
Paul, love how honest you are about listening to competing products, I own a Calypso preamp with NOS TUBES, a very good balanced piece of gear. I borrowed a PS AUDIO power plant 12 and wow even better, hoping to buy one next year. 👍 looking forward to hearing your new speakers, bring them to Montreal next year for the audio show.
Well Paul, that's a good story, but it raises a new question: what were these preamps (either your BHK or the other brand's) doing that the Direct Stream DAC and the lesser preamps both were unable to do? I suspect it may have to do with the input and output impedance of the components involved, and perhaps some very mild filtering going on due to DC coupling caps in the signal path as well, whose corner frequency is affected by the characteristic impedances. Could that be it? The right preamp acts as a buffer and reduces the reactivity of the source component to the amp it's plugged into? If anyone has a good answer, I'm very curious to get to the bottom of this!
none of that should open the sound stage or create the air around instruments he was describing it seems likely it was doing some sort of signal processing, would be interesting to compare the waveforms and see what actually was different.
@@Antimonkat Well I don't have enough technical/electrical engineering/psychoacoustics knowledge to explain exactly why, but I bet it could, theoretically. Impedance mismatches could cause a slight rolloff of bass frequencies, or maybe even some sort of dynamic compression of the signal or maybe some slight changes in the distortion characteristics. Idk if we'd hear that as a difference in soundstage or "space" but I wouldn't discount the idea..
I remember a time when Hi-fi was simple to set up and operate. You just connected the record deck, cassette player and CD player to your amp, then wire the amp to your speakers Now you need a degree in advanced physics just to connect a CD player to an amp. Pre amps? DACs?
Most good dac-preamps that have good processing like a RME ADI 2 for example as probably all you need except you want really high end stuff then a good dedicated pre might be worth considering.
Excellent question . Even better response . We appreciate your input and guidance . There is no one in the audiophile community that contributes their knowledge and experience as much as you . Many things cannot be validated in measurements . That doesn't mean it isn't so .
@Thom Moore ... How many confirmed scientific facts have been proven false when new materials and methods of measurements surfaced ? There was a time when the consensus of the smartest believed the earth was flat . There is much to learn . Many, who believe they know more than others are truly the most ignorant . Thank you for confirming this to be fact .
@Thom Moore . . I agree with you in regards to the ridiculous prices people will pay for cables . However to declare that audio technology has been solved is a moronic statement . There are many variables that remain unresolved . There are factors that exist that currently cannot be measured and have yet to be discovered . When I was younger I reached a point where I decided I have learned more information than I could possibly put to use . Now that I am older I have accepted the fact that I am lacking in many regards . The education system has focused their curriculum in fields that will benefit society . Better audio reproduction is not very high on the list . The advancements achieved over the last 5 decades has been significant . Fortunately , we have people like Paul that continue to push the envelope and put in the effort to increase the quality of audio reproduction . Those overpriced cables provide the funds needed to keep the labs stocked with the equipment and personnel required to improve audio reproduction . Have you noticed an improvement in audio over the last 20 years ? If the answer is yes than why are you criticizing Paul ? You should be grateful . No good deed goes unpunished .
@Thom Moore ... You are free to disagree . You are entitled to your opinion . However , I am curious . When you are typing in your responses , do you do so with an angry face ? Why so intense ?
@Thom Moore ... Outstanding response . You are intelligent and entertaining. Conflicting opinions are beneficial to all . Sometimes we get caught up in our beliefs and get blinded by anger . I find that I learn a great deal more when i listen to opposing viewpoints . This is why we have 2 ears and 1 mouth . We must learn to listen twice as much as we speak . That is the path to increase our intelligence.If you surround ourselves with people who always agree with you , you will not learn anything new . Audio reproduction has improved immensely over the years and I support all efforts to continue the trend . Progress may be made in small increments at this point but why complain . At the end of the day we are all benefiting. I have yet to meet someone who enjoys and wants bad audio .
Hi. I am not a Audiophile at all but my question is...If you are striving to extract the best sound from the recorded source surely it can only be as good as the sources recording. How can you make a old or poor recording better when the dynamic range wasn't there in the first place when it was mastered.??
Why not build a better preamp section into your Direct Stream DAC ? Wouldn't this resolve the concern of having to have a separate preamp? This would give you a direct line to the amps and a better overall sound.
DACs have TosLink, Coaxial, USB, BlueTooth inputs. All of them can have external switchers to add more than one source of one kind, and a user is not limited to the number of the input sockets provided in the particular pre-amp. aliexpress.com/item/32852823220.html
5 лет назад+6
Yeah, but why does it make a difference? Could impedance matching have anything to do with it? Just because you can drive a power amp with a headphone out jack, doesn't mean you should.
I love your long stories, Paul. They’re extremely entertaining and well said. Please keep being long winded! That being said, my dream rig is a BHK 250 and preamp. Can I have one for Christmas if I’ve been a good boy?
@@EJP286CRSKW Some DACs have convenient volume control with no THD degradation when volume level is low. If you are about maximum Vrms of DACs vs Pre-amps then most Amps have maximum Vrms sensitivity of 1-2V that can load 29dBV gain Amps up to 100-400W with 8 Ohms impedance speakers, while DACs and Pre-amps can have 2-4 Vrms output. More than enough for most amps to show full power on 8 Ohms speakers.
very interesting talk. just one question: preamps have their own DAC built in. so when using an external DAC where do u plug in the output of the external DAC to the preamp? in other words how do u bypass the built in DAC of the preamp?
It seems that I came here to learn a DIFFERENT angle on the question. My version of this question is not "what sounds best" necessarily. What I was hoping to learn is whether connecting a DAC into say a "CD" input of an integrated amp, would be self-defeating, BECAUSE it might just go right into the lower quality DAC of the integrated amp? Would THIS essentially ruin the idea of using a separate DAC, in the first place? I do understand that using a high quality pre-amp seems to make sense either way; but again, in a diagram, what path is happening for 'external' input amplification?
I have a question as I've been reading about this the last few days. Does the difference the preamp made have to do with impedance matching between the dac and the power amp vs between the preamp and power amp?
I suspect the difference was in hidden EQ processing of the signal in the pre-amp. It just highlights some frequencies like 5 kHz, 8-10 kHz bands (+6dB), and suddenly listener starts to hear additional details. I tried it with EQ, and those highlights add some magic you probably could hear from Hi-End devices that cost 10x of regular system instead of $100 for EQ.
You're avoiding one important fact. Most of DAC's and most of the power amps, and I am talking about units with XLR output and input, do not have volume control. So if you want to hook up those without a pre-amp, be my guest. If you do survive the first two seconds of music, your loudspeakers won't. Period.
It’s simple, you can connect a DAC to a power amplifier or even powered speakers directly provided the output of the DAC has volume control and can output enough level. I run several setups like this including some active speakers. Adding a preamp most certainly doesn’t improve the audio fidelity!
Thom Moore I suspect Paul’s story is about the fact that tubes can ADD even harmonic DISTORTION and some people find that to be an improvement. Personally I prefer the pure original audio signal with nothing added.
Hi Paul. could i please ask after you answered most of what i was searching for. There is all sorts of discussions about different types of Op amps on a computer sound card. This led me to search for the possibilities of direct from the Dac overriding the opamp (i assume the opamp being a preamp. i know it would need decoupling ect: Then i could use my own preamp of choice. thanks Paul i enjoyed your video
I rather tend to believe Paul is talking about the fact that some people like the ADDED effect of even harmonic distortion from tube amps. Personally I prefer the cleaner audio going direct. I’m not saying that impedance is irrelevant but usually your DAC is with low enough output impedance to drive any power amp equally as well as a preamp. Do you have some example?
great info, and much appreciated. I would like to ask if there is any way to add a larger amplifier to the wireless receiver for my sound bar. The part that sends signal to my subwoofer, and rear speakers, as i would love to add several more speakers to the system, since i have several rockford fosgate 4inch speakers laying around. but dont really have money to purchase an entire new set up.. my goal is to try and slightly emulate dolby atmos, i know the signal wont be correct and audio will only play from 2 channels but MORE surround sound is always better than less lol thanks
But why did one preamp succeed and the other fail? Higher quality, but what parts? Or where the two components just not meant to be, with uncorectible input/output characteristics?
So your Direct Stream DAC needs help to sound better? A pre amp is only needed if you need to adjust tone, switch inputs or to boost the volume going to your power amp.
I have an a/v receiver with a cheap headphone out jack. Doesn't power anything above 60ohms well and can't even power my Hifiman Sundara's well either due to low sensitivity rating. Question, can my receiver be the DAC and have an Amp that I plug into my headphones and then I would plug that amp into my reciever......where? Optical Out I have. Would that work? (I don't have a pre-amp out rca) Any comments about this problem, I'd appreciate. thanks.
im currently having mic problem. i just bought this usb DAC digital to analog audio soundcard and it has 3.5mm jack so when i plug my 3.5mm jack on my steelseries arctis 3 it sounds great! but the problem is the MIC IS NOT WORKING. would love to hear if someone can help.
Well, most DAC these days have a volume control so it acts like a preamp too. I have heard the Stellar gain cell and we added a preamp to it. Brought it to the next level. Infact, I tried many similar price DACs and adding a highend preamp does make a positive difference.
@@ThomasAndStereo That is interesting. I don't doubt it. I guess my point was more to the high end stuff that the majority can afford (like the PSA Stellar series). Adding a high-end pre to a Stellar system is a good sized investment on a system geared to be affordable(ish). (Love your videos by the way)
@@stonefree1911 Thanks Gregory. All these high end dac sounds great as preamp but from my experience, 99% of them can benefit from a good preamp. Only way to be convince is to spend time doing AB test. It's really hard to imagine and I completely understand that. The difference can be picked up in seconds while some take longer listening sessions. One story that pops to my mind is my friend who owns a DIY speaker system. He has the Hegel HD30 and thought his DAC was good enough as a preamp given it's like $4k. I changed his mind by lending him my preamp. That is just one story and I have others too. Thanks for watching my videos.
Thomas & Stereo hi Thomas, I have a Sprout100, and I’m looking to buy a power amp now and then buy a Schiit Freya+ in a few months. Any recommendations on a power amp to pair?i have a Denafrips Ares2 dac, so want a power amp that suits the Freya+ and Ares2
@@shahidyt I know many people will probably suggest the Vidar. I have it and it's fine. Nothing mind-blowing like the Freya. Also, I don't know how it compares to amps in its price range so I am not going to make a video on it. Regarding what other amps to suggest, it depends on your budget. Sub $1k I actually don't have a lot of experience.
Someone educate me: So I am looking at a few classical music box sets, which are either released as CD with free downloadable 24/192 WAV and FLAC files in stereo and surround, OR SACD hybrids without download. Now, how does that HQ file quality compare to SACD? And is the word true that there is no audible difference between CD and SACD? Does it make a difference at least on an "expensive" system? I only recently got my first SACD disc in 2019, but did not even have an opportunity to play it...
SACD uses DSD encoding instead of PCM (used by WAV and FLAC files), usually, DSD sounds better than PCM but it really depends on the DAC (some DACs sounds better with DSD others with PCM) but the differences are very subtle not a night and day thing. If the source/mix is good both formats will sound amazing and pretty similar. Based on my humble subjective not scientific and probly wrong experience: I prefer SACD/DSD over PCM most of the time, it just sounds more analog (and I'm an analog guy). But You have to take into account that SACD is not a versatile format at all... you cannot rip a SACD to your PC/Mac easily and you cannot take the digital output of your SACD player and just connect it to a DAC easily neither... high chances you will have to rely on the analog output of your SACD player instead if you want to hear the native DSD signal.. so if your SACD player is not very good (or not at the same level of the rest of the system) well you are f... :D In a nutshell: go SACD if you really love the format and know its perks and caveats. if you want versatility go CD/wav/flac instead.
Thanks Paul! Though there is still confusion here, if I understand correct it’s the preamp opamps that define the sound and the air of it, is it not better to implement these opamps in the DAC? PS: love the video’s! Best regards Mario from Belgium.
It's helpful to think of ther system rather than the components within the system if you can. It's one long chain. Op amps can be alright if properly implemented by designers that know what to listen for, but the better products (at least sonically) rely upon discrete circuitry or a hybrid version of that. The idea of a separate preamplifier adding to the chain to improve the sound of a DAC is one that's always been difficult for me to wrap my head around, but if the preamp's of a certain quality it's always true. Go figure.
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio ah yes the synergy of the combined system, something I also have trouble to wrap my head around, thanks very much for your reply! ;-)
when using a tube preamplifier you will always color the sound! The sound that is on a CD disc should be recreated as much as possible and then you can't have a tube preamplifier! you must have the best possible DAC
it's not about perfect recreation, but most enjoyable one. Adding a pre will colour the sound, usually make it more spacious and 3d and that is what is usually wanted - pleasurement of listening. I also tried going with a studio grade DAC to various power amps and it was good, but adding a good pre was always making it more enjoyable presentation.
@@awdadwadwad1723 well written. Many use equipment such as a preamplifier as an equalizer to get the sound you want, but then you color the sound and change the original sound! In many cases you do not have good speakers or sound source.
Nope is not about perfect recreation. There is no such thing as that and also not wanted. I want to have the best soundstage and sound that suits me. If i want to hear it as the producer i just buy a cheap studio monitor and listen as the recording folks do it. And that is a very boring sound.
Hi Paul, Perhaps you can assist me please. I own DAC amps for my headphones. I recently bought a Bravo V3. It has L & R rca outlets, but my desktop PC ( Lenovo 23" all in one pc) only has HDMI and USB at the back. I've seen on Ebay, a box with hdmi ( with a lead hdmi to hdmi) to connect pc to said box. Then , also on the box is rca outlets.I haven't bought it yet, because I think it's meant to connect to a television. Whether it will do the job, I don't know. I also own a IFI dac amp that has a ' printer cable ' female ' at the back . It came with the cable usb male / printer male, which is a no brainer. As well as that , it has rca L & R , which I haven't used ( I have no way of connecting it to PC via rca - same problem as the Bravo V3. I'm making do with the IFI dac , but am keen to get the Bravo V3 working. Can you point me in the right direction as to what to buy please. Regards Glenn from Australia
OMG, you think your 7 minute explanations are long winded? It's not Yessongs, okay buddy? Sheesh Paul, according to your view count, there's lots of folks who like to listen to your stories! Keep on Truckin'.
I have a question. I have a amp, but it doesnt have a dac built into it. So i have to now purchase a amp and a dac seperate. How would i connect those two?
These are good i own one: www.amazon.co.uk/Fisual-Havana-Custom-Stereo-Metres-Black/dp/B012BB2B1G/ref=sr_1_15?keywords=Fisual+Havana&qid=1576447096&sr=8-15
Why can't you just build that feature into the DAC it's programmable instead of the preamp? a panning feature just like a bass and treble knob on the remote/app, so the customer can adjust the soundstage depth and width. This would be a lot better for the customer setup considering the size of the room material, speakers. Just because it sounds good on your reference system doesn't mean it's going to sound good for everybody else, as you are aware when you do shows! Now there's another great idea for you Mr McGowan. Curious to understand why the preamp from the other company was so much better than yours and is that still the case lol
@@awdadwadwad1723 what a load of nonsense clearly you're not audiophile if you did you would use it. What do you think manufacturers do with their equipment when designing it?
Thom Moore the writer was talking about a power amp, NOT an integrated. It might benefit you to actually listen, read and comprehend the subject at hand, for a change, rather than blindly attacking him as is your norm. He isn’t my hero. I just don’t harbor a totally irrational, blinding hate for him as you seem to have.
Thom Moore Oh, as a power amp does not include a DAC, it would be insane for it to have a USB input, the digital equivalent of a “road to nowhere”. And as for Amazon searches, at best, Amazon gets a D-. Their search engine sucks.
i wonder, does this stuff make people happy in the long run? i imagine that if I were to by expensive stuff to add color to my specific system I would ultimately feel unfulfilled and a little bit cheated. guess that you cant have it both ways, its great that there is a market for abstract eccentric heartfelt electronics and I guess you cannot say its fake and real at the same time. Being a total audio atheist and all I still get totally carried away subconsciously by all this mumbo jumbo about single components making all the difference. I cant help to think that there must be a better more honest way to do it (like every audio idiot before me I suppose)
Well yes but why on earth would you want to plug DAC (Dreadful Audio Compression) into an amp and have BASP (Bad Audio Sound Projection) forwarding into your existing listening sound area? You need to have your head tested if this is your regular form of audio pleasure, better to have a nice cold beer and think about planning your next holiday to somewhere hot 🍺🌝👍😀
calling a DAC a Dreadful Audio Compression is funny.. Compressors, gates and expanders deal with compression and if you were referring to compressing and decompressing the data (as in encoding/de-encoding it) when required, today's processors have no issues with that kind of workload. cheers!
you can call him over and play him something and say "i'll show you something" then pretend to do something with the system but not actually doing anything and play it again and he'll be like "HOLY MOLY!!" because that's just the way it is. actually at this point, i really wonder if any of those stories were true. you know, he could just make them up to prove his point, who knows?
![If you can't hear this then you're not an audiophile [See description for link to followup video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/48PxwspDvrE/mqdefault.jpg)
No need to ever apologise for the "length of your wind", Paul.
Of course there are many people who just want the "bare bones" of your answers delivered as quickly as possible. Equally though, there are many of us who like how eloquently you can put "meat on the bones" through your personal experiences and testimony
It also means something else in the UK haha
Unfortunately the lengthy answer did not explain the most important thing: how the pre-amp affects sound and why!
That was a most enjoyable "long in winded" story Paul - I personally didn't think was too long at all - it showcased and answered the question at hand by sharing some insights into some of those special learning moments and interactions that you enjoyed with Arnie - thanks for sharing, the journey never ends for any of us.
...man i love his honesty! Tough to find honest people like Paul those days!
R E S P E C T ! ! !
No need for apologies, your humility and honesty is so refreshing, I am totally taken aback, and throughly impressed. BHK preamp, you say...at the time it's an aspirational product, but I'm going to get one. Thanks for sharing.
@Thom Moore but he's talking about BHK preamp not the BHK amp. I've never used a BHK preamp I don't have an opinion about it but, in my humble experience, a good tube preamp improves the sound a lot... or distorts the sound in a beautiful way if you prefer ;)
So nice to have you in the family, telling stories and tech things. I almost agree in all the cases. Keep it up, Paul.
I have used passive preamps and variable output dacs for a number of years and they do sound fine in isolation. If you are building a system it is a great place to start.
However, if you add a good active preamp (preferably valve) you will almost always prefer it. Soundstage opens up, imaging improves, and sense of drive and energy increases and voices are more fleshed out.
I remember those men from your book, and I remember their rising stars from when we were much younger. Its a real shame that today's younger guys don't get to see the truly breath-taking rise of high-fidelity audio like we did. I remember walking into a department store in the Cielo Vista Mall in El Paso in 1976 and looking at the new and awesome Pioneer SX-series receivers. They were so wonderful. Right beside them were the new Marantz units, and right across from their door was another hi-fi store selling equally compelling gear. That's when Maxell made the ad with the kid in the chair with his hair blown back from the JBL LS-100. It made a huge statement that everyone connected with. What a blessing high fidelity reproduction is. So your "long winded" explanations carry the weight of history, and of context. Valuable commodities in the days of "we want the answer now".
Its feels good when answer in my mind matches the one you give. That happens about 90 percent of times. I am not an engeneer but unless its very scintific our explanations don't differ much either. I am consuming too much Paul... lol... Respect for you sir...
Thom Moore ha ha...
All kudos to you Paul, lesser men would not admit to being wrong or outmanned. I like that you just tell the truth as you find it & don't lord it over others when they are wrong and you right, that's pretty rare.
I use my dac as a pre amp, works great. It's an ADI-2 dac and it has XLR outs and all kinds of control. I plan on possibly getting a preamp when I upgrade to monoblocks.
I love when you throw in your history into your videos.
I love your honesty Paul, respect from England
I love your HUMBLENESS. You are a great person. I totally love your knowledge and wisdom about audio equipment. Especially because that's the way you are. I commend you for that.
If I ever need any information I always watch one of your videos.
Objectivity is the shorter path to what you really want, than subjectivity is. Love ya for this Paul.
Finally I agree with you Paul! :) My system sounds sooo much better with a tube preamp!
Thank you Paul for your honisty and wisdom...
Yeap! One of my friend is running JRiver that streams to his directstream DAC who's plugged directly into his bhk amp ;)
Nice talk, I have experienced this myself. It may be an impedance mismatch or a preamp with bandwidth limitations. Once I connected a cd player to a wonderful amp. It then sounded thin and lacking in bass response. Added a preamp and it sounded amazing. I just needed to keep trying.
Thanks for answering my question in such detail Paul, really appreciate it.
The only thing I replaced in my audio system this year was a preamp. That change made my system sound much.much.much better. So I am now a believer in getting the very best preamp you can afford. By the way y new preamp is a Hybrid. Solid state with two tubes.
@Luke Schneider
I bought a Frank Van Alstine preamp. Cost about $1100.00. The preamp I retired was also one of Frank's
preamp's. I had it for about 8 years or so.
Cheers
Charlie
Sometimes it depends on the components.
Just went to have a good audition of a pair of LS50. Heard them a few times before but never a serious session.
So the dealer had a CD player, streamer/DAC and integrated amp from a UK manufacturer. All 3 components are from its midrange series. Same series.
The LS50 sounded horrid. Then the dealer removed the streamer/DAC from the chain. The sound opened up a lot. Was much better.
It was a $1,500 unit. But ...
I have never heard ls50 sounding any better than ok. But yet there are people swearing on them xD
awdadw adwad ... ssssshhhh ... you need to keep that a secret. 😂🤣
I know what you are saying. The reviewers have gone past the line in their over enthusiastic reviews.
I have a FiiO X5 hand held DAC/Music player with a digital output, and with an appropriate RCA cable, I have it plugged directly into my Rega BRIO. It works great and I listen to my music collection that is on FLAC file over my speakers.
Not many will say I'm wrong, when they are!!, love your content, interesting+I learn things
“A Mighty Wind” - one of my favorite CDs.
I wish they were longer.they are that good. Thanks paul
I did the same thing, I put a Schitt Saga plus preamp between a Dac Magic 200M with a pair of Adam T7V studio monitors and my system literally opened up on a whole different level
Paul, love how honest you are about listening to competing products, I own a Calypso preamp with NOS TUBES, a very good balanced piece of gear. I borrowed a PS AUDIO power plant 12 and wow even better, hoping to buy one next year. 👍 looking forward to hearing your new speakers, bring them to Montreal next year for the audio show.
Well Paul, that's a good story, but it raises a new question: what were these preamps (either your BHK or the other brand's) doing that the Direct Stream DAC and the lesser preamps both were unable to do? I suspect it may have to do with the input and output impedance of the components involved, and perhaps some very mild filtering going on due to DC coupling caps in the signal path as well, whose corner frequency is affected by the characteristic impedances. Could that be it? The right preamp acts as a buffer and reduces the reactivity of the source component to the amp it's plugged into? If anyone has a good answer, I'm very curious to get to the bottom of this!
none of that should open the sound stage or create the air around instruments he was describing it seems likely it was doing some sort of signal processing, would be interesting to compare the waveforms and see what actually was different.
@@Antimonkat Well I don't have enough technical/electrical engineering/psychoacoustics knowledge to explain exactly why, but I bet it could, theoretically. Impedance mismatches could cause a slight rolloff of bass frequencies, or maybe even some sort of dynamic compression of the signal or maybe some slight changes in the distortion characteristics. Idk if we'd hear that as a difference in soundstage or "space" but I wouldn't discount the idea..
I remember a time when Hi-fi was simple to set up and operate. You just connected the record deck, cassette player and CD player to your amp, then wire the amp to your speakers Now you need a degree in advanced physics just to connect a CD player to an amp. Pre amps? DACs?
@@petermitchell6348 Welcome to the 20th century. Lol
You can plug a hair dryer into an amp if it has the right plug put on it. But, I wouldn't suggest it.
I like it when the length of your wind is extended. Too often, the length of your wind leaves me wanting a little more...
A humble man. Subscribed and than k you for your knowledge.
Paul,
Thanks for the long answers. I like to know the why. Maybe in the long run that makes everyone smarter.
But he did not tell why
Most good dac-preamps that have good processing like a RME ADI 2 for example as probably all you need except you want really high end stuff then a good dedicated pre might be worth considering.
that's a nice looking work station!
have a nice evening Paul!
Even with you Paul everyday is a school day.
Excellent question . Even better response . We appreciate your input and guidance . There is no one in the audiophile community that contributes their knowledge and experience as much as you . Many things cannot be validated in measurements . That doesn't mean it isn't so .
@Thom Moore ... How many confirmed scientific facts have been proven false when new materials and methods of measurements surfaced ? There was a time when the consensus of the smartest believed the earth was flat . There is much to learn . Many, who believe they know more than others are truly the most ignorant . Thank you for confirming this to be fact .
@Thom Moore . . I agree with you in regards to the ridiculous prices people will pay for cables . However to declare that audio technology has been solved is a moronic statement . There are many variables that remain unresolved . There are factors that exist that currently cannot be measured and have yet to be discovered . When I was younger I reached a point where I decided I have learned more information than I could possibly put to use . Now that I am older I have accepted the fact that I am lacking in many regards . The education system has focused their curriculum in fields that will benefit society . Better audio reproduction is not very high on the list . The advancements achieved over the last 5 decades has been significant . Fortunately , we have people like Paul that continue to push the envelope and put in the effort to increase the quality of audio reproduction . Those overpriced cables provide the funds needed to keep the labs stocked with the equipment and personnel required to improve audio reproduction . Have you noticed an improvement in audio over the last 20 years ? If the answer is yes than why are you criticizing Paul ? You should be grateful . No good deed goes unpunished .
@Thom Moore ... You are free to disagree . You are entitled to your opinion . However , I am curious . When you are typing in your responses , do you do so with an angry face ? Why so intense ?
@Thom Moore ... Outstanding response . You are intelligent and entertaining. Conflicting opinions are beneficial to all . Sometimes we get caught up in our beliefs and get blinded by anger . I find that I learn a great deal more when i listen to opposing viewpoints . This is why we have 2 ears and 1 mouth . We must learn to listen twice as much as we speak . That is the path to increase our intelligence.If you surround ourselves with people who always agree with you , you will not learn anything new . Audio reproduction has improved immensely over the years and I support all efforts to continue the trend . Progress may be made in small increments at this point but why complain . At the end of the day we are all benefiting. I have yet to meet someone who enjoys and wants bad audio .
Hi. I am not a Audiophile at all but my question is...If you are striving to extract the best sound from the recorded source surely it can only be as good as the sources recording. How can you make a old or poor recording better when the dynamic range wasn't there in the first place when it was mastered.??
You can't, you can just hear the flaws with much more clarity.
NO,,, we dont ALL need the 'quick' answer. do _your_ thing...your way. it works & i love it.
Once In a While You Can Gets Shown The Light In The Strangest of Places If you Look at it Right or in this case Listen to it Right
Why not build a better preamp section into your Direct Stream DAC ? Wouldn't this resolve the concern of having to have a separate preamp? This would give you a direct line to the amps and a better overall sound.
An advantage to a proper, great sounding pre-amp is it's ability to help you manage your various inputs.
DACs have TosLink, Coaxial, USB, BlueTooth inputs. All of them can have external switchers to add more than one source of one kind, and a user is not limited to the number of the input sockets provided in the particular pre-amp.
aliexpress.com/item/32852823220.html
Yeah, but why does it make a difference? Could impedance matching have anything to do with it? Just because you can drive a power amp with a headphone out jack, doesn't mean you should.
I have your old 1st gen PS Audio gear & tuner. Great stuff!
Great advice Paul! If it works, it works. No need to add downstream components unless they specifically enhance/richen the sound.
Always some awesome wisdom. Thanks Paul. BTW, no need to apologize. IMHO, better to take the time to explain something vs. not providing details.
Now Paul, only your wind 💨smells like roses 🌹 😀
Those gadgets on the top shelf look very oldschool and cool. It would be interesting to know what they are.
Test equipment.
I love your long stories, Paul. They’re extremely entertaining and well said. Please keep being long winded! That being said, my dream rig is a BHK 250 and preamp. Can I have one for Christmas if I’ve been a good boy?
No, I like quick answers
So glad you make these videos
In my opinion, if your DAC have an output impendance quite low (below 200 ohm) with low noise then its OK to directly plug to your power amp
Team 101 Audiophile It's either OK or it isn't. Whether it's your opinion is irrelevant. You've left out the rather important issue of level.
@@EJP286CRSKW
Some DACs have convenient volume control with no THD degradation when volume level is low. If you are about maximum Vrms of DACs vs Pre-amps then most Amps have maximum Vrms sensitivity of 1-2V that can load 29dBV gain Amps up to 100-400W with 8 Ohms impedance speakers, while DACs and Pre-amps can have 2-4 Vrms output. More than enough for most amps to show full power on 8 Ohms speakers.
Alexander Belov I don't know why you're telling me. I'm the one who mentioned it.
Respect you from #Algeria ❤🇩🇿
I'm with you on that one, Paul. If you're not the best pitcher, just make sure the person who is gets picked for "your" team. 👽🖖"Na-nu"
very interesting talk. just one question: preamps have their own DAC built in. so when using an external DAC where do u plug in the output of the external DAC to the preamp? in other words how do u bypass the built in DAC of the preamp?
Good question
It seems that I came here to learn a DIFFERENT angle on the question. My version of this question is not "what sounds best" necessarily. What I was hoping to learn is whether connecting a DAC into say a "CD" input of an integrated amp, would be self-defeating, BECAUSE it might just go right into the lower quality DAC of the integrated amp? Would THIS essentially ruin the idea of using a separate DAC, in the first place? I do understand that using a high quality pre-amp seems to make sense either way; but again, in a diagram, what path is happening for 'external' input amplification?
What quality is the DAC in A Cambridge AXR100 receiver. Not sure if I should use this rather than the DAC in my Denon CDC 600NE?
The length of one's wind is usually never a problem butt the odor of one's wind is always a problem
Thanks Paul, even to my old dumb ass your explanation made sense!
I have a question as I've been reading about this the last few days. Does the difference the preamp made have to do with impedance matching between the dac and the power amp vs between the preamp and power amp?
I suspect the difference was in hidden EQ processing of the signal in the pre-amp. It just highlights some frequencies like 5 kHz, 8-10 kHz bands (+6dB), and suddenly listener starts to hear additional details.
I tried it with EQ, and those highlights add some magic you probably could hear from Hi-End devices that cost 10x of regular system instead of $100 for EQ.
Great story Paul
New camera Paul? The colors have changed and sharper.... Looks like a Canon?
So exactly what does a preamp do to the signal?
You're avoiding one important fact. Most of DAC's and most of the power amps, and I am talking about units with XLR output and input, do not have volume control. So if you want to hook up those without a pre-amp, be my guest. If you do survive the first two seconds of music, your loudspeakers won't. Period.
Hahaha! Just put a kink in your XLR cables to slow down the flow of electrons.
There are external components for this. E.g.
aliexpress.com/item/32857859719.html
It’s simple, you can connect a DAC to a power amplifier or even powered speakers directly provided the output of the DAC has volume control and can output enough level. I run several setups like this including some active speakers. Adding a preamp most certainly doesn’t improve the audio fidelity!
Thom Moore I suspect Paul’s story is about the fact that tubes can ADD even harmonic DISTORTION and some people find that to be an improvement. Personally I prefer the pure original audio signal with nothing added.
I enjoyed this story
Hi Paul. could i please ask after you answered most of what i was searching for. There is all sorts of discussions about different types of Op amps on a computer sound card. This led me to search for the possibilities of direct from the Dac overriding the opamp (i assume the opamp being a preamp. i know it would need decoupling ect: Then i could use my own preamp of choice. thanks Paul i enjoyed your video
It's all about impedance matching, a subject that doesn't get nearly the attention it should in audiophile circles.
I rather tend to believe Paul is talking about the fact that some people like the ADDED effect of even harmonic distortion from tube amps. Personally I prefer the cleaner audio going direct. I’m not saying that impedance is irrelevant but usually your DAC is with low enough output impedance to drive any power amp equally as well as a preamp. Do you have some example?
great info, and much appreciated. I would like to ask if there is any way to add a larger amplifier to the wireless receiver for my sound bar. The part that sends signal to my subwoofer, and rear speakers, as i would love to add several more speakers to the system, since i have several rockford fosgate 4inch speakers laying around. but dont really have money to purchase an entire new set up.. my goal is to try and slightly emulate dolby atmos, i know the signal wont be correct and audio will only play from 2 channels but MORE surround sound is always better than less lol thanks
Do they make sound systems that pick up the ultra high definition today without going through all this trouble?
But why did one preamp succeed and the other fail? Higher quality, but what parts? Or where the two components just not meant to be, with uncorectible input/output characteristics?
Does this apply to the Stellar DAC as well?
because preamp have opa chip make open stage nice sound
The Bob Ross of audio
So your Direct Stream DAC needs help to sound better? A pre amp is only needed if you need to adjust tone, switch inputs or to boost the volume going to your power amp.
I tried many DACS (including PSaudio) in the same price range doing AB test and all of them benefit from the help of a high-end preamp.
@@ThomasAndStereo Why would that be?
@@phomchick I have absolutely no idea but it's my experience. Perhaps an engineer can explain it. Me, I just listen.
@@ThomasAndStereo the logical conclusion is that certain high-end preamps must add a euphonious distortion that you find pleasing.
@@phomchick yup, That is one logical explanation.
I have an a/v receiver with a cheap headphone out jack. Doesn't power anything above 60ohms well and can't even power my Hifiman Sundara's well either due to low sensitivity rating.
Question, can my receiver be the DAC and have an Amp that I plug into my headphones and then I would plug that amp into my reciever......where? Optical Out I have. Would that work? (I don't have a pre-amp out rca)
Any comments about this problem, I'd appreciate. thanks.
is it bad to plug a headphone DAC into the Buttkicker amp?
So i can listen to digital signal, and split it to my seat shaker?
im currently having mic problem. i just bought this usb DAC digital to analog audio soundcard and it has 3.5mm jack so when i plug my 3.5mm jack on my steelseries arctis 3 it sounds great! but the problem is the MIC IS NOT WORKING. would love to hear if someone can help.
Can you get better than cd quality through a 3.5mm audio in?
Get a PS Audio Stellar Gain Cell DAC, it's both a preamp and DAC and sounds AMAZING! Trust me. (little surprised Paul didn't mention this....)
Well, most DAC these days have a volume control so it acts like a preamp too. I have heard the Stellar gain cell and we added a preamp to it. Brought it to the next level. Infact, I tried many similar price DACs and adding a highend preamp does make a positive difference.
@@ThomasAndStereo That is interesting. I don't doubt it. I guess my point was more to the high end stuff that the majority can afford (like the PSA Stellar series). Adding a high-end pre to a Stellar system is a good sized investment on a system geared to be affordable(ish). (Love your videos by the way)
@@stonefree1911 Thanks Gregory. All these high end dac sounds great as preamp but from my experience, 99% of them can benefit from a good preamp. Only way to be convince is to spend time doing AB test. It's really hard to imagine and I completely understand that. The difference can be picked up in seconds while some take longer listening sessions. One story that pops to my mind is my friend who owns a DIY speaker system. He has the Hegel HD30 and thought his DAC was good enough as a preamp given it's like $4k. I changed his mind by lending him my preamp. That is just one story and I have others too. Thanks for watching my videos.
Thomas & Stereo hi Thomas, I have a Sprout100, and I’m looking to buy a power amp now and then buy a Schiit Freya+ in a few months. Any recommendations on a power amp to pair?i have a Denafrips Ares2 dac, so want a power amp that suits the Freya+ and Ares2
@@shahidyt I know many people will probably suggest the Vidar. I have it and it's fine. Nothing mind-blowing like the Freya. Also, I don't know how it compares to amps in its price range so I am not going to make a video on it. Regarding what other amps to suggest, it depends on your budget. Sub $1k I actually don't have a lot of experience.
Leave the wind long, it is better than to be breaking it...
Someone educate me: So I am looking at a few classical music box sets, which are either released as CD with free downloadable 24/192 WAV and FLAC files in stereo and surround, OR SACD hybrids without download. Now, how does that HQ file quality compare to SACD? And is the word true that there is no audible difference between CD and SACD? Does it make a difference at least on an "expensive" system? I only recently got my first SACD disc in 2019, but did not even have an opportunity to play it...
SACD uses DSD encoding instead of PCM (used by WAV and FLAC files), usually, DSD sounds better than PCM but it really depends on the DAC (some DACs sounds better with DSD others with PCM) but the differences are very subtle not a night and day thing. If the source/mix is good both formats will sound amazing and pretty similar.
Based on my humble subjective not scientific and probly wrong experience: I prefer SACD/DSD over PCM most of the time, it just sounds more analog (and I'm an analog guy). But You have to take into account that SACD is not a versatile format at all... you cannot rip a SACD to your PC/Mac easily and you cannot take the digital output of your SACD player and just connect it to a DAC easily neither... high chances you will have to rely on the analog output of your SACD player instead if you want to hear the native DSD signal.. so if your SACD player is not very good (or not at the same level of the rest of the system) well you are f... :D
In a nutshell: go SACD if you really love the format and know its perks and caveats. if you want versatility go CD/wav/flac instead.
thanx MAN
Thanks Paul! Though there is still confusion here, if I understand correct it’s the preamp opamps that define the sound and the air of it, is it not better to implement these opamps in the DAC? PS: love the video’s! Best regards Mario from Belgium.
It's helpful to think of ther system rather than the components within the system if you can. It's one long chain. Op amps can be alright if properly implemented by designers that know what to listen for, but the better products (at least sonically) rely upon discrete circuitry or a hybrid version of that. The idea of a separate preamplifier adding to the chain to improve the sound of a DAC is one that's always been difficult for me to wrap my head around, but if the preamp's of a certain quality it's always true. Go figure.
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio ah yes the synergy of the combined system, something I also have trouble to wrap my head around, thanks very much for your reply! ;-)
when using a tube preamplifier you will always color the sound! The sound that is on a CD disc should be recreated as much as possible and then you can't have a tube preamplifier! you must have the best possible DAC
it's not about perfect recreation, but most enjoyable one. Adding a pre will colour the sound, usually make it more spacious and 3d and that is what is usually wanted - pleasurement of listening. I also tried going with a studio grade DAC to various power amps and it was good, but adding a good pre was always making it more enjoyable presentation.
@@awdadwadwad1723 well written. Many use equipment such as a preamplifier as an equalizer to get the sound you want, but then you color the sound and change the original sound! In many cases you do not have good speakers or sound source.
@@awdadwadwad1723 so? Just buy a Bose system!
7029100 except bose sounds like shit. Thin spiked trebles and muffled af bass
Nope is not about perfect recreation. There is no such thing as that and also not wanted. I want to have the best soundstage and sound that suits me. If i want to hear it as the producer i just buy a cheap studio monitor and listen as the recording folks do it. And that is a very boring sound.
Nice
Hi Paul, Perhaps you can assist me please. I own DAC amps for my headphones. I recently bought a Bravo V3. It has L & R rca outlets, but my desktop PC ( Lenovo 23" all in one pc) only has HDMI and USB at the back. I've seen on Ebay, a box with hdmi ( with a lead hdmi to hdmi) to connect pc to said box. Then , also on the box is rca outlets.I haven't bought it yet, because I think it's meant to connect to a television. Whether it will do the job, I don't know. I also own a IFI dac amp that has a ' printer cable ' female ' at the back . It came with the cable usb male / printer male, which is a no brainer. As well as that , it has rca L & R , which I haven't used ( I have no way of connecting it to PC via rca - same problem as the Bravo V3. I'm making do with the IFI dac , but am keen to get the Bravo V3 working. Can you point me in the right direction as to what to buy please. Regards Glenn from Australia
W4S 10th edition DAC2V2SE
Discrete class A output stages
So in summary, YES connect dac directly into amp UNLESS you have a really good preamp.
Loud as h, but sure. Unless you got a source like a pc or a digital streamer that got a volume control.
OMG, you think your 7 minute explanations are long winded?
It's not Yessongs, okay buddy?
Sheesh Paul, according to your view count, there's lots of folks who like to listen to your stories!
Keep on Truckin'.
I have a question. I have a amp, but it doesnt have a dac built into it. So i have to now purchase a amp and a dac seperate. How would i connect those two?
Use RCA cables
@@Jordonater do different types of rca affect sound quality or? It doesnt matter which one i use?
@@aichan5235 You just need to make sure you have two cables. 1 for left and 1 for right. I would say not to spend to much but get some with shielding.
@@aichan5235 What type of length do you need?
These are good i own one: www.amazon.co.uk/Fisual-Havana-Custom-Stereo-Metres-Black/dp/B012BB2B1G/ref=sr_1_15?keywords=Fisual+Havana&qid=1576447096&sr=8-15
Hi Paul
Why can't you just build that feature into the DAC it's programmable instead of the preamp? a panning feature just like a bass and treble knob on the remote/app, so the customer can adjust the soundstage depth and width. This would be a lot better for the customer setup considering the size of the room material, speakers. Just because it sounds good on your reference system doesn't mean it's going to sound good for everybody else, as you are aware when you do shows! Now there's another great idea for you Mr McGowan.
Curious to understand why the preamp from the other company was so much better than yours and is that still the case lol
Becouse we are real audiophiles and do not ever use EQ or DSP. If the gear doesn't sound good in you room you get a different one.
@@awdadwadwad1723 what a load of nonsense clearly you're not audiophile if you did you would use it. What do you think manufacturers do with their equipment when designing it?
All USB DAC’s Can be connect to an AMP very simple answer again
Most amps do not have USB, and no power amps ever do.
A USB DAC is not connected to an amp via USB but via it’s output ports. Just to keep it simple.
Flemming Nybo but, those outputs normally are not variable, unless it’s a DAC/Preamp. Stand alone DACs are fixed output almost always.
Thom Moore the writer was talking about a power amp, NOT an integrated. It might benefit you to actually listen, read and comprehend the subject at hand, for a change, rather than blindly attacking him as is your norm. He isn’t my hero. I just don’t harbor a totally irrational, blinding hate for him as you seem to have.
Thom Moore Oh, as a power amp does not include a DAC, it would be insane for it to have a USB input, the digital equivalent of a “road to nowhere”. And as for Amazon searches, at best, Amazon gets a D-. Their search engine sucks.
i wonder, does this stuff make people happy in the long run?
i imagine that if I were to by expensive stuff to add color to my specific system I would ultimately feel unfulfilled and a little bit cheated.
guess that you cant have it both ways, its great that there is a market for abstract eccentric heartfelt electronics and I guess you cannot say its fake and real at the same time. Being a total audio atheist and all I still get totally carried away subconsciously by all this mumbo jumbo about single components making all the difference. I cant help to think that there must be a better more honest way to do it (like every audio idiot before me I suppose)
Yes ! you can !!! m No ! you can !!! (can can) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes We Can !!! - Barack Obama
Well yes but why on earth would you want to plug DAC (Dreadful Audio Compression) into an amp and have BASP (Bad Audio Sound Projection) forwarding into your existing listening sound area? You need to have your head tested if this is your regular form of audio pleasure, better to have a nice cold beer and think about planning your next holiday to somewhere hot 🍺🌝👍😀
Lay off.
mag 1981 truth hurts you know don’t knock it 🤓
calling a DAC a Dreadful Audio Compression is funny..
Compressors, gates and expanders deal with compression and if you were referring to compressing and decompressing the data (as in encoding/de-encoding it) when required, today's processors have no issues with that kind of workload.
cheers!
Durox Kilo well my full explanation of DAC can be found on this channel by searching for the video What Is DAC ? 👍😀
@@sheer2waist637 ok, thanks
you can call him over and play him something and say "i'll show you something" then pretend to do something with the system but not actually doing anything and play it again and he'll be like "HOLY MOLY!!" because that's just the way it is. actually at this point, i really wonder if any of those stories were true. you know, he could just make them up to prove his point, who knows?
I don't believe Paul works that way...
If you actually paid attention to the entire video you would know you are wrong.
@@stonefree1911 suit yourself.
@@Bannockburn111 about what?
@Thom Moore good comeback bro.