Shoma's FP concept is his skating journey coach's suggestion Choreography: Kenji Miyamoto story in his heart "Mirror in the mirror" he likes this work He says he will have it completed by the World Championships. Coach is saddened by NHK's scoring and suggests resignation from GPF But Shoma participated. He said he wanted to perform to make his coach happy. The 2019 coach saved him. His motivation is to express his coach's work. I can not speak English Sorry for the confusing text
Regarding the still face: Shoma reminds me of Patrick Chan in this regard. Both of their expression comes from the blade and body movement, Shoma of course having more lovely arms but I was just watching some of Patrick's old programs and when Alyssa made the comment about his still head, it reminded me of how I watched Patrick. For me, there is no need of excess facial expression, what the body and blade just draw my attention.
Shoma's still head is a myth, he uses head and I like it each time. As for the still face it's quite normal I guess - fk has its own language, body language not face
wow to say that you don't connect emotionally to a skater that you said is perfect and really good because he doesn't move his head is just so lame and silly , that's just an excuse....you just don't like him.......then what about ugly, stiff and awkward moves you connect emotionally with that??????☹😵😵💫
I'm so, so glad Alissa and Dave had that whole section on spins because it is absolutely true--skating culture as a whole have shown very little care for quality spins while they are more than happy to write aggressive essays and debates on what is and what is not "textbook" jumping. There were several instances when the judges actually rewarded poor laybacks and change-foot combos with comparable, if not even higher GOEs, than that of Alissa's back when she competed! The two otherwise-lovely skaters Dave briefly mentioned regarding the layback were one of those instances.
I've noticed that Dave advocates that skaters abandon programs somewhat frequently. I respectfully disagree. In non-Olympic years, I think it's so important for the skaters to experiment and step outside their comfort zones so that they find what does and doesn't work for them. Sticking with old programs or with formulas that have worked in the past is a recipe for staleness. I think Rion Sumiyoshi has good upside potential. I'm interested in seeing how she develops. Whether or not I agree with everything or nothing, always appreciate hearing Dave's opinion and those of his guests - thank you!
I think it depends on the stakes. For a skater like Shoma, it genuinely doesn't matter whether he gets a gold or bronze at Worlds. I don't even think it matters to Shoma that much lol (Although I'd love to see Dancing On My Own again 😭). But for a skater like Jun or Hana or Kevin music and packaging is the difference between a bronze and 8th place. If you're not in the conversation then I'd say changing programs after the Grand Prix makes a lot of sense, not that I'm advocating that any of the skaters above in particular should change their programs. But if your season isn't going well and you're just barely in the conversation for a medal, then you need every bit of fire power you can get imo.
To suggest that SHOMA change his FP is shocking to me. That program is a work of art that Shoma believes in so strongly. It's going to be epic when it's performed to the standard Shoma has set for himself. It's already so beautiful that it moves me to tears every time!
Madison Chock as a future consultant for packaging would be brilliant. I really appreciated Alissa's perspective here. She's such a beautiful skater herself. She made some really good points. Her comments about how spins seem to be devalued was very interesting. She made a great observation about skaters being lazy by using what they KNOW will get the level instead of choosing difficulty AND aesthetics.
She reminds me of a Sasha Cohen of ice dance now; great packaging, great pictures, not the best skating skills, but you forgive it for the performance (but in no way can she match or top my queen Sasha)
Something to note: Mao and Jia are not same in terms of figure skating age. Like Alina Zagitova did, Jia Shin will be making her senior debut in the Olympic season for 2026, but Mao, born a couple months later, will have to stay in juniors for a year longer. Mao will have to wait for the 2030 Olympics, reminds me of how Japanese fans were so sad that Mao Asada couldn't make it to the 2006 Olympics while doing much harder content at junior worlds than any senior woman in Torino.
Missed the golden opportunity and during then, technical like triple axel was not so appreciated. Mao actually did 2, one in combination. Salute. To me, Mao Asada is always special.
Thank you for this episode, I missed Jonathan but also loved this discussion so very much. Kaori’s programs this year as not as captivating like last year’s ones but boy do I Love them anyway ahah they’re growing on me, competition by competion. Love the fact that she’s skating like a champion- that 3 loop 2 toe (was it a toe?) at the end of her free was amazinggg! Loena doesn’t convince me that much, especially for the free (she sells the short much better). I love Yelim’s programs this year and I’m so sad she hasn’t been consistent. Other random things: I love the quietness of shoma’ skating. Omg, it brought me to tears. Next level. Also, loved the Italians this time around! They were pissed about NHK trophy and it showed in their performance, in the power and confidence they displayed. Thank u for an other insightful tsl!
Hi there! Just wanted to comment on your comment about the Italians (and also agree with you about Kaori's programs this season). Oof, you're so right! I could literally see Charlène's intensity, but for me, that sort of took me out of what is typically a gorgeous program, especially the RD. Imo, the intention was there, but she didn't emote for me quite as well as she otherwise has this season, quite possibly because anger (or frustration or annoyance or something along those lines) seemed to be the overarching emotion I sensed. But hey, that's just me. I respect everyone's opinions, so feel free to disagree! (As if you need permission, haha) However, after establishing the lead that they did with their RD, I do feel that she emoted far better in their FD. To be quite honest, while I 1,000% respect the hell out of the Italian team, I don't really love them quite as much as others do (mostly referring to the FS subreddit in this sense, lol). And WHOA ... at NHK, when Charlène acted the way she did to Lilah after F/G's win, I lost a bit of respect for her. Like, hold up a second. You are EXCELLENT at what you do! You know this! Lilah didn't call her and Lewis's elements or score their own program! If she absolutely *had* to be angry about it, I wish she'd have directed that anger toward the judges and/or tech panel, not the athletes. It was very much giving sore loser vibes. Camaraderie is always the way to go and we see it all the time! They should be praising and lifting each other up, not acting salty about it and being rude to another skater/team. Not to mention, literally any and everyone who follows Ice Dance speculated that the podium at the GPF would be C/B, G/F, and G/P, in some particular order. Lilah and Lewis just aren't quite there yet (especially in terms of skating skills). I do know that Lilah's dad is rich and pours a lot of money into the sport, but as far as I've seen in terms of competitions (pretty much all I can afford to since I'm a crazy FS fan, lol), Lilah has always been supportive of the Italians when she and Lewis compete against them and Charlène and Marco win (which is essentially EVERY time, so Lilah and Lewis winning one single time is really not that deep and it wouldn't have hurt for her to be happy for Lilah one single time). Charlène is obviously highly competitive, which can be great fuel for great programs, if channeled well, but directing her anger for getting silver at another skater is absolutely NOT it for me. Plus, silver is still pretty darn impressive and the Italians would have still qualified for the GPF even with just bronze! So yeah, that left a really bad taste in my mouth, especially since it was the final GP event in the series before the GPF. And I want to like them so much! (I do love Marco, though ... he seems like a very stable and solid partner and really knows how to keep it together, apparently.) At any rate, I was thrilled that C/B won at the GPF! I've been following them for years, and in the absence of all the former incredible ID teams that came before (like P/C - my GOATs - but I love so many teams), they are definitely due for many, many golds in the "wait-your-turn" discipline that is Ice Dance! Needless to say, I am quite excited for Worlds! It will be quite interesting since it's in Montreal and 4 of the 5 top teams train at IAM, so I imagine it will be REALLY close and a real nail-biter! Geez ... I apologize for the unintentional essay. Thanks for reading all that and I hope you have a wonderful day! :)
I totally agree judging needs to take a better look at the spins. They're just tossing out numbers when there's so much difference between a good spinner and someone who just completed a spin as a requirement.
Clarifying some confusion about Shoma's Great Spirit program --Great Spirit was choreographed for Shoma in 2018-2019 but was as an EX to be used in 2019 summer ice shows. He began 2019-2020 without a coach. The Great Spirit EX was reworked to be suitable as his SP for the 2019-2020 season. When he had his 2019 IdF disastrous 9th place finish, Stephane happened to be at that same competition with Koshiro and Deniss. He suggested to Shoma that possibly he could help, and Shoma went to Champery just to train for a while. Stephane was with Shoma for his Rostelecom Cup assignment, where he placed 4th, missing the podium by .38. At 2019 J-Nats, he just sorta kinda let it slip that Stephane would be his new coach. He skated Great Spirit there and won J-Nats that year.
Great Spirit is one of the greatest men's short programs of all time, in my opinion. But Shoma could skate around in circles for the duration of a program, and I'd be enthralled! Confused, but enthralled. LOL
@@christinethorp3684 Agree 100%. I was thrilled when he made it his SP. That 2019 Nats performance was epic! I've lost track of how many times I've watched it!!!!
Thank you for very interesting conversation. But I was confused when you said that Shoma’s programs don’t work, and Ilya’s Spanish short is a brilliant solution. This may be true, but the difference in the basic skills of both skaters is so big that no costume or monotonous music can level it out. This difference is about the same as between Patrick Chan and Kevin van der Perren. The Japanese can just skate in a circle and it will be at 9.50.
We are discussing what is good for the skater. Ilias’s short is the best he can do for now. There is a lower ceiling in terms of ability. Shoma has far more ability. In my opinion, previous Shoma programs would give him more of a competitive advantage artistically over Ilia. And the judges would also need to differentiate more.
@@TheSkatingLesson Why do you think that the Spanish theme is the best solution now? The Spanish style is one of the most complex in choreography; it requires very clear lines in all poses, aplomb, sharpness, graphic poses and precise forms. This requires high quality skills, but performer doesn’t have any skills. Malagueña can only be successful if the performer has a high level of skill. To me this looks like Maxim Kovtun only worse.
@@DeserveGoldagree, but Americans doesn't understand this, it's like Isabeau and other Russians doing the Egypt boring hand move all the time when an oriental music start to play...
@@DeserveGold There's a reason why Malaguena is warhorse and for a period of time it seemed like everyone at every level was using it. It's "easy" music to skate to; Put on a Spanish outfit, sprinkle some cliche Spanish poses throughout the performance and you have a program. I like the version of Malaguena chosen for Ilia's SP, and he has complicated choreography. I do agree that his poses don't have the sharpness of lines that you would see from a trained dancer. That's something his choreographer should work with him on to take his performance up another level.
@@DeserveGold Hi there, I have to be honest. From your messages, it sounds like you are emotional about the results and not understanding what I am trying to be diplomatic about saying. Ilia has a lower artistic ceiling, but the Malaguena program brings out the best of what he can do. Shae-Lynn did a good job of maximizing what he is good at. It has those hops and arm movements that make Ilia look more engaged and engaging. It brings out the best of what he can currently do. It brings him to about a low 8 in my opinion (performance). I think Ilia's free at the GPF was in the 7s for me. Shoma is capable of being at or close to a 10. His current programs don't have the emotion that he is usually able to deliver and captivate us with (Dancing On My Own, Bach's Air of a G String). Thus, his current programs are a low 9 for me, when he should usually be at a 9.5 to 9.75 for performance. I firmly believe that Shoma needs to switch his programs to force the judges to recognize more of a difference between him and Ilia (and him and Yuma, which could be even more critical).
The skater doing the quads a few years ago was Rika Kihira, who also did 3As. She was Japanese number one OVER Kaori. She got hurt or she would be the one going for three championships now.
@@deirdrekiely6187 What are you talking about? Sakamoto is 2 years older than Rika. Rika made her senior debut the year after Kaori went to the Olympics. Rika won her 2 National titles after Kaori won her first national title.
Hana Yoshida was so good. Her short was a little sloppy but I love the music, it’s so different and she showed versatility with a contrasting long program style. She is SO powerful, and her back and shoulders are Sasha-cohen-straight on her landings. The final sit spin was so fast and centered too.
I think she's amazing. I'm surprised people don't seem to get her free program. They need to watch some videos of birds, maybe cranes. I'm not sure if she's a crane, but it seems like it.
I agree with Alissa that Yuma was off here in both programs and wasn't really giving the same energy or emotion that we saw from him at NHK. He kept landing on the inside edge on a lot of his jumps, which is unusual for him. Usually he lands on that beautiful, flowing outside edge that has become his signature. Hopefully he can finally skate a clean free at Japanese Nationals.
GPF winner Alyssa is famous in Japan as well. Alyssa's spin is gorgeous George Winston's program is very popular Alyssa's statement was used by Shoma's haters. "High PCS is not appropriate" i was sad about that
I didn’t like Shoma’s long program at all when I first saw it. Like Alisa said before, it is a very challenging music to skate with. But every time he skates, it grows on me. Adam Rippon said on his podcast, “I hate the music, but I love it when Shoma skates.“
I really, really like Shomas new programs. When I listen you complaining about them, I think we live in different realities. But ok, cultural differences I guess 😅
I don’t love Shoma’s new free program, especially the music or the costume, but I so admire what he’s done with it. Shoma is reaching for his own brand of perfect skating now and it is absolutely mesmerizing to watch him. Dave, I think you are fascinated more by the competitive and political aspects of skating. Shoma still feels a responsibility to compete (of course he does, he’s Japanese and has Duty stamped on his soul), but his goal is to perfect his artistic skating with Stephane by his side.
I don't know. Shoma is my favourite ever but the artistic direction since he has been with Lambiel and led by Lambiel is a miss for me. I still love watching him skate and i still think he is the best but i truly miss when Shoma soared to the music and when his programs built towards the end. This all concept of liminal music that Lambiel seems to be going for as to showcase Shoma's gorgeous skating and movements might be a good idea in theory but it's still kind of a miss in my opinion. The free is ok but the short really is a tough listen.
Honestly, I think these are some of Shoma’s most expressive programs. I have images of him skating on a pond in the rain in the daylight with his free. It’s so gorgeous.
Dave on that discussion about the mental aspect, I think Mao Shimada is actually another one. Her reaction after coming second in the short was quite shocking to me. I don’t think she is at all equipped not to win. She made one small mistake but looked absolutely devastated. I hope she can hold up mentally over the coming years.
I hope the pressure isn't coming from her coaching team. My sense is she is a perfectionist and is upset when she doesn't skate clean. I hope she is able to cope with mistakes because they will happen.
@@sohlangan Agreed, I didn't get the impression it was coming from the coach in this case, I think she just has very high expectations of herself. And of course has never lost a competition internationally as far as I know, so she will have to learn how to deal with this - it's gonna happen at some point.
Yes, I am a bit worried too. But as everyone else here I’m also inclined to believe that unhealthy pressure is not coming from the coaches. Hana Yoshida has the same coaching team and she kinda always look happy, no matter what. And she has lost and made mistakes multiple times but was given time to gently develop, cause they obviously trust her potential, and now she is rising. Fingers crossed for her success! As for Mao, she is still very young and needs to mature, really hope her team is helping her with it.
Omg Alissa, you're killing me with your Shoma takes, I say that in a non-aggressive way LOL. Because I get that everyone has their own opinions but it just BLOWS MY MIND that her main complaint about Shoma is that she can't connect emotionally because personally that was the #1 thing that drew me to him! I feel everything! That being said, I do agree that his free program isn't the best. I WANT to like it more than I actually like it. I really do LOVE the SP though.
My biggest takeaway from the GPF was Nina's free program. It seemed to be constructed by someone who doesn't understand music with its different highs and lows and punctuations. And even when there seemed to be some thought involved in timing moves to the music, the moves were incomplete. The composition mark should be much lower. I think she has real promise and potential, but that free program is glaringly off. Maybe I was so bothered because the music itself is lovely, but the actual program seemed so disconnected from it. Also, does anyone else remember that Rostelecom when Alexander Samarin took the gold? His performance was WORK in the worst way. Yes, he landed hard jumps. There was zero artistry and zero enjoyment from him (or me!) in that performance. Shoma Uno competed there, too. He fell a lot. It was one of his worst outings. Samarin outscored Shoma in components, and I remember thinking that I would much rather watch Shoma fall with style than watch Samarin skate even his best. So go ahead and nitpick Shoma; we all want to see him improve and be his best. But I know that watching Shoma's quad flip will always be easier for me than watching skaters like Samarin or Grassl at their best.
A difference of 1.0 between 4Lz and 4A is obviously too small, considering that the difference between 2Lz and 2A is 1.2 and the difference between 3Lz and 3A is 2.1. Logically, the difference between 4Lz and 4A should be greater than 2.1. Something around 15 for 4A would appear reasonable to me. By the way, I have always wondered who decides the scale of values and what procedure is used for that. Is there a report documenting the process? I also think that the multiplicative factor of the PCS for both the men's SP and FP should be increased - an outstanding TS for the SP is about 60-65 points and an outstanding TS for the FP is about 110-125. In contrast, the max. PCS is 50 and 100 points, respectively. Such adjustment would benefit skaters who are particularly strong in the PCS.
I agree with Dave about Ilia. He seems very Russian, to me. But Alissa's comments were interesting, since she knows him from Stars on Ice. I agree that he will get better in his presentation. But right now, I don't connect with him like I did with Nathan.
On a lighter note, isn't it amazing that Japan had at least 1 medalist in the past 17 GPFs (men)? Curious to know which program/s (of Shoma) is/are liked by Dave and Jonathan and who would they choose as choreographer for him (aside from Bourne, Lambiel, Higuchi, Miyamoto and Wilson).
Ya. Honestly if Russia comes back I don’t know how it’s going to ever grow in North America again .I appreciate the skating from them but it’s hard to have a level playing field with such different systems. I don’t want to watch them win every medal again
What can they do in regards to doping? I think the biggest change they can make is to change the rules that only three random skaters get tested at each competition and have it be all medalists and three others chosen at random.
I think Dave clearly forgets geopolitics when talking about summer and winter sports. It’s very different with winter sports where so many northern countries dominate, countries who are and always have been threatened by Russia, there is no way those countries are willing to host Russian athletes. I live in northern Europe, I know how massive this opposition is. And you both are wrong when you say that no one is talking about Ukraine anymore. Maybe not where you are, but remember Ukrainian war is still the only one conflict in the world when the big power unprovoked invades another sovereign country and continues to threaten the rest of the world with nuclear weapons. This gives totally different geopolitics which plays a role for sports as well.
IJS keeps rewarding “mediocre” skating as long as you have the jumps, which is why there are no (except for a very few) “real” stars anymore. Until it is applied correctly and/or weighted to be more at par with the ceiling of technical content… IJS was supposed to be the answer to the judging politics but really has been a more sophisticated tool to push a skater up and down the rankings
Part of it is the scoring system. Ilia can get 120 in TES but another skater with lower TES but more artistry can only, in theory, get 100 in PCS. Since no one gets all 10s, the best PCS is probably 97 or 98.
@@skatefan9495 Yes, Which is why the PCS factor multiplier needs to be adjusted so it can be at par with the tech points. But at the same time it needs to be applied correctly. It’s pretty laughable that the difference between Shoma and Ilia is only less than a point. It’s like we have no eyes.
@@Purplechemist395You’re suggesting going back to 6.0 system, a corrupt judging system which leads to a lot of big scandals? This is a different era. Figure skating has no stars not because it’s lacked of artistic skaters. Actually there are still many artistic skaters such as Jason Brown, Kevin Aymoz. But they won’t become a star coz they are pretty weak technically. The prerequisite of becoming a star is having difficult jumps. Like it or not, most of fans watching singles figure skating today prefer hard jumps over artistry. If artistry is the priority, ice dance should’ve been the most popular discipline but in fact it’s much less popular than single’s skating.
I was in the arena too watching the final. The truth is Ilia is more of a star than any other skaters, even Shoma Uno. He got the loudest screams and most plushies. The audience like him the most, especially the young girls 😂All the figure skating fans on China’s social media were talking about him. So being a star doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with being artistic.
Re: 80s songs --- Is anyone as shocked as I am that NO ONE picked PETER GABRIEL, KATE BUSH, or TALKING HEADS?!? Too little love for moody or alternative 80s. (David Byrne was such an ambassador of dance, too!) If I missed someone dancing to these artists, please correct me!
SO agree with Peter Gabriel and no one skating to Kate Bush (esp after last year's Running Up That Hill) Dave Byrne - you are inspired!! Yes! I would have loved some Sade or Yazoo (they had a different name in the USA)/Alison Moyet and no Whitney Houston or Tina Turner?
@@mammaotter5886 Can you imagine a New Order RD or ABC/Duran Duran/Spandau Ballet/Thompson Twins/Flock of Seagulls/Psychedelic Furs/The Cure even Wham (not just George Michael)
I so needed Wham, Duran Duran, Soft Cell, The Smiths, New Order, Joy Division, The Cure, Alison Moyet (Yazoo), Dire Straits, Culture Club, Madonna, Lionel Ritchie, Stevie Wonder and more Eurythmics (other than Sweet Dreams). Talking of Stevie Wonder - can you picture Fear/Gibson doing a Stevie Wonder FD in a coming season based around Sir Duke??
Alissa, like you - it took me a long time to "get" Shoma. Prior to him joining Stephane - I could take or leave Shoma. I would watch him, agree he was talented but felt "meh". Then he went to Stephane, and the first thing I saw was Japanese Nationals and his SP to Great Spirit, and a new Shoma emerged. I've loved him from that moment to now. I would happily just watch him do edge exercises and basic skating skills and enjoy the elegance of it - a bit like watching Javi and Yuzu just skating up and down the ice with their amazing skating skills.
Shoma was still with his Japanese coaches when he did that "Great Spirit" short program, which was before the 2018 Olympics. Shoma didn't move to Stephane until about 2020.
I also didn’t really start to appreciate Shoma as much until he went to Stephan either. He just seemed to believe in himself more after that & it translated into his skating.
I agree, I could watch Shoma just skate up and down a rink forever. Shoma adopted Stephane as his coach during the 2019 Grand Prix season. His programs at that point were Great Spirit and Dancing on My Own. He beat Yuzuru Hanyu for the first time at 2019 Japanese Nationals and moved to Champery, Stephane’s rink, in 2020. So Stephane was his new coach the year he had that electrifying skate to Great Spirit.
On quads active skater few years back that were non-Rissian, i can think of Rika Kihira. Her triple axel and quad salchow. It's not easy for women skater to attempt quads, risk of injury. Missing her's skating and positive attitude be it win or loss.
Loving the section on judges being overly generous with top skaters having bad spins. Even if a spin had decent speed and positions towards the end, if it traveled and took them a while to pull it in, there should be minuses
I hope Ilia continues to do things on his own terms. Last thing he needs is everyone tell him how he has to be. If the Russian style is to his taste, I hope he fully embraces and adds his own to it! So excited watching his progress!
I read somewhere that Kaitlyn and Jean-Luc had planned a rhythm dance to "With or Without You" but who knows if we will ever see it. Fingers crossed we do. I agree with Alissa that if they skate it perfectly, Piper and Paul could edge Chock and Bates with that RD, but that's a big if. I feel very torn because I honestly love both Wuthering Heights and Pink Floyd as programs. And I've hated Pink Floyd for decades so if those two can have me reconsider my feelings and listen to Dark Side of the Moon 43 times this year, which my Apple Music says I did, then I salute them. It must be that Dali dress or the gummies I ate.
Thoughts are with Jonathan! :( I would love Alissa's take on the junior dance team that won .... they were incredible, and I thought they had the best skating skills out of all the dance teams, junior and senior. I predict they will be on top in a couple of years! Great episode as always :)
There are some artists or movies from the 80s that haven't been represented yet. No one has done Van Halen, Dirty Dancing, a John Hughes film theme, Fame, the Police, Wham, and the Bangles. There are of course more, but instead of so many Prince and MJ routines. Also an 80s aerobic routine, which I believe Papadakis and Cizeron have done, but I feel could still be fun.
I love the fact that Chock and Bates is not a parody or the 80’s, they are dancing to Queen and the choreo is on the mark. I prefer that to the ridiculous over the top program of the Italians, and I think Piper and Paul’s first music is not impactful enough, and they don’t make enough of the fantastic driving beat and percussion highlights of Addicted to Love. I also think their ballroom holds don’t match the era.
I do agree here. My comment about Chock and Bates was in response to judges feeling that Top Gun wasn’t 80s enough. It has caused me to look at everything with the question of whether it gives the look and feel of the 80s as opposed to merely being a song from the 80s or film from the 80s.
I love the Italians both programs music is fun for the short beautiful for the free I just don’t like the outfits for the short but performance is great
I don't understand Paul's 80's outfit. Piper's is cool. I also don't know why they're doing traditional dance holds, it looks out of place with the music and the theme.
Thank you for another engaging informative and entertaining TSL. Thoughts are with Jonathan. Loved the discussions on spins - would really like them to be worth more, marked correctly, and acknowledgement that a held position in the correct manner, is better than several dodgy positions. My moments of seniors: Ilia's quad axel (still slightly confused: rules; two axels in the SP are permitted? There was an "x" in the boxes) in the SP; Kevin's step sequence in the SP and choreo seq in the FP; Hana's triple axel; Kaori - presence of mind and athleticism; double toe on the end of triple loop right at the end of her program; anything Deanna does (even when it's not perfect - love her!). JPG - Mao Shimada - triple axel and quad toe and wow, PLEASE I want to know more: - USA Ice Dance Leah NESET / Artem MARKELOV - and their coach (used to dance with Maxim Shabalin) - I thought they had (the best sort of) "Russian" quality.
Remember when Alyssa Liu was competing against the Russians, and her first jumping pass in the SP was 3A 3T, then a 2A and another triple - she got around the one axel type jump by putting the 3A as the start of a combination. Junior GP Final 2019 I believe.
Ilia's quad axel was counted as a solo jump after he did the jump combination and 3A. The reason it was initially invalidated is because the 4A is essentially a new element in the SP that the actual computer system had not accounted for; because it hadn't been recognized as a solo jump before, it was counted as an axel type jump and was invalidated. This meant that later, the call had to be validated manually, which was what occurred after Ilia had done his 3A. The initial invalidated call was probably why one judge left a -5, although there are a multitude of reasons it's most likely that the judge did not see that it was later validated, and left the -5 there because an element that isn't allowed as per the requirements gets an automatic -5 GOE (this appears to be a new rule for this season only).
I do appreciate you saying the bit about Ilia appearing very Russian, I've thought that many times watching him. He's sort of filling the role of a Russian man.
When people describe Isabeau's skating as "light" and "delicate", what does this mean in terms of speed, skating skills and mastery of the blade? How does one skate "light"? Skate "delicate"? Or are these nice ways for saying she skates slowly and in small patterns? No snark here. I'm genuinely curious.
Ilia's victory was fair but it wasn't memorable at all. People compare him to Nathan but Nathan is miles ahead of Ilia in terms of interpretation and quality. Ilia only has jumps but they aren't aesthetically good jumps, they don't have flow and they are just crashing in the ice dramatically...
Ilia has a lot more than jumps, I love his performances, both sp and free skate. Personally for me his free skate was the most exciting and amazing in this competition, I watched it for about 20 times.
@@alexander28110 good for you. But as Spanish person his sp was embarrassing since he doesn't have that quality to get into that music. And his fp was chaotic, just a mix of jumps with big music and cheap costume. There are juniors with much more style than him. And he is 19, he is not going to be better, he just don't have big presence in the ice. But well, I am happy you enjoyed him 😉
Not memorable? 6 quads including a quad axel! All the figure skating fans on China’s social media were talking about it after the free skate. I was in the arena too watching the competition live. Ilia is the most popular skater of all. His popularity even surpasses the veteran Shoma Uno. Hard to believe it coz this is his second senior season. Many audience came to see him compete. That is why the organizer makes the men’s free last event on the agenda. Not a single audience left. The audience like him very much, especially the young girls😂 lots of plushies…
@@ChastakenI find your words more embarrassing, trying so hard to devalue a skater who has so much talent and hard work. Anyway you can go on hating on him. Ilia goes Ilia’s way, ofc a way to success. If I wasn’t there watching the final, I wouldn’t find out how popular he is becoming in reality coz there’re haters like you online always whining. But there are more people who like him and support him. He is attracting many young audience to this aged sport. And the aged audience like you obviously can’t appreciate him. Different generations have different tastes.
Dave, I agree with you on two things. First, Kao. I find I’m very distracted by his look on the ice:lack of overall packaging, and my goodness the hair! Maybe Shoma could point him in the right direction as his hair has improved over the years. Second, I had the very same thoughts on Ilia. The Succession program feels very Russian to me. His gaining appeal and attention in the US will depend on young people being able to relate to the programs he puts out there. Both programs this season miss the mark in that regard. Technically he’ s exciting to watch though, and that will pull some people in even if the programs are rather dull.
The thing about antidoping, is that it's not to prevent cheating(simply because it's impossible, the dopers are always a step ahead), but it is a means of harm reduction. If there were no antidoping whatsoever, we would be seeing people keel over left and right etc. Sure it doesn't stop everything, but it would be so much worse if there wasn't testing. I'm a cycling fan, so I've thought a lot about doping. Cycling has more testing than almost any other sport, but we still see more and more unbelievable performances, antidoping definitely is not perfect, and they should always be striving for improvement, but inherently there is only so much they can do.
I so LOVE the German Pair team. I can't wait to see their journey. I would love to see what Christopher Dean or John Kerr could do for Deanna and Max. Unconvential thought - yes. But could be spectacular.
I believe Rika injured herself trying to do the quads trying to compete with the junked up Russians that pushed her out of being fit for Olympics (and almost everything else since).
I think competing against the Russians really hurt the ladies field - some of them ruined their bodies trying to compete technically, like Wakaba and Young, and I think it ruined everyone's confidence.
I say this as someone who grew up watching Yagudin and Plushenko: Ilia may be American, but his lines, hands, fingertips and even cheekbones are Russian. For this reason, I don't think that making him look or act more American is a better way to improve his artistry than working on what he already has. It will be good enough once it's fully polished. The love/hate emotional response seems to fire him up more than being liked by everyone anyway. What his team needs to do immediately, though, is to get their act together in terms of how they dress him. His outfit in the free program was so badly cut that it completely overwhelmed him. He looked like a primary school boy wearing his older brother's suit.
@@TheSkatingLesson I've always admired his head movement because it seems instinctual with the crescendos of the music. But I think what Alissa means is that his body carries the momentum of the music so beautifully, but his face and expressions do not. Yes he's clearly intense and I love that, but it starts to feel one-note as performance expression. Every program regardless of style lately, has the same emotional approach from him: intense and serious. He's not one to take on characters, and I wish he had done that more in his earlier career to build more versatility. His body seems to take on the character of the music in such a sophisticated fashion, and yet it doesn't extent fully to the soul like a Yuzuru Hanyu type. Shoma has been my personal favorite Japanese skater for many years, but I do agree he is a tad reserved where I wanna see him really explode from the spirit. That Piazzolla 2016-17 long program he did was sensational and captured him at his best, imo. But these last few years I agree...it's muted, minimalist, and in a way that only enhances this particular problem.
@deepfocuslens What did you think of Shoma's Ex: Come Together? I thought he was showing a lot of very emotional facial expression there. I tend to think this year's programs do not require such facial expression - rather it is supposed to shave off all and focus on his musicality and body movements and the beauty of the choreography,
lol have you seen the audience’s reaction? He got the loudest screams and most plushies from the audience. You guys better not just sit at home watching the live stream and bla blah. Get one ticket to watch him compete live and you’ll find how exciting that is. But anyway that’s your opinion.
@@yolandaguo7153 he won’t become a global superstar purely from people watching live. He’s not telegenic (eyes too close together) and has no sponsors even over a year after his first 4A.
@@potatochip-8 That means figure skating is a dying(or died) sport in America, sad… If he was Chinese or Japanese or even Russian, he would already get lots of commercials, endorsements, and sponsors.
@@yolandaguo7153 he is less popular than Nathan was at the same point in his career. At least Nathan had sponsors, more mainstream press coverage, like Time Magazine and NYTimes. Nathan even had Japanese sponsors and Ilia has none from any country.
@@AndrewSchwepps Ilia was born and raised in the US, so he is just as American as every white American here. Exclusionary anti-immigrant ideology is antithetical to the history and evolution of the US.
I could not agree more. And I also agree that the progress from last year is impressive. I’m all American and quite thrilled with him. A little weary with the Japanese clones. I do wish Shomo would do a program with more rhythm. Saw him do one many years ago in a Detroit Skate America. He is musical/has real rhythm. It doesn’t have to be classical.
Russia will never stop doping. The fact that the ISU is too scared to enforce it is just a non-stop, blatant slap-in-the-face of the athletes/countries that do behave.
Another great show thank you. I was looking forward to this! I don't connect to Shoma's programmes this year either. He is a stunning skater, but its Yuma I am invested in. The result was correct IMHO, but I didn't enjoy Malinin's programmes. Much credit to him though for pushing the sport technically. But I wouldn't go back and watch Malinin's programmes again.
This video has been translated into Japanese and published for the Japanese audience. It is clear that Alissa does not like Shoma. She said, "Shoma doesn't want to give up 4F, because he was the first one to succeed in 4F. If she knew Shoma, she would never have said that. I felt that Alissa did not like Shoma in every word she said. I don't think Alissa is anti Shoma. She just doesn't like Shoma.
25:43 Actually, both Mao and Jia are ineligible to compete in Milan because of the age requirement... So they have to wait until 2029-2030. And we have no idea if Mao will still be able to execute ultra-c elements in 6 years So I'd say they're equal in terms of senior potential, although Mao does appear to be more talented
I have always been a fan of Alissa Cziny's skating and now love her commenting here. I've been binge watching videos of her and Kurt's adorable act where she skates to "Skating" and he skates to many Christmas classics. It's outstanding and funny, and sweet. ❤
Ilia's jumps are beautiful, and he has great promise. Would love to see him work with Paul Wylie on posture, spins, and presentation. Disagree about American fans, I think he has full support, love him. Looking foward to seeing him develop. I think Yuma could win olympics, he plays the long game and he is also developing his own style.
@@TheSkatingLesson Thank you for responding. This is interesting. I feel like we need a section preceding any event giving insight into who knows who and the political ranking of the athletes so that we can understand how they scored.
You know I will defend Piper and Paul until my death haha I love them and I love the literary free they have this season (call me biased because I almost always love the themes they choose). I agree so much that Chock and Bates are truly amazing this year and I would say Laurence is a gift to the sport (she is in an elite tier of skaters with the likes of Savchenko, etc). La/La are looking very promising this season and I agree the transition between competitive eras that Charlene and Marco have managed is flawless. Such a testament to their abilities as skaters!
Global superstar? Maybe to the Russian market but he doesn’t have much appeal to the North American market. Does he even have any sponsors yet? Nathan already had a lot of major brand sponsorship in comparison.
He is becoming the most popular male skater in competitive field (I was in Beijing watching the final live). Chinese fans love him very much to my surprise , considering this is just his second senior season. North America market of figure skating? Does it exist? Didn’t it die long time ago? 😂The emerging big markets of figure skating are in Asia. Ilia can def be popular in Asian markets such as Japanese and Chinese(not sure about the Korean tho) market. I met many young girls who came to see him in the arena😂
@@yolandaguo7153 where are his Chinese and Japanese sponsors then? Nathan was sponsored by Japanese companies. Figure skating is not popular in China - not at all comparable to Japan or Russia … and he’s not popular in Japan compared to skaters from there.
@@potatochip-8 You’re correct that figure skating is not very popular in China, but still has much bigger market potential than North America. Skate America is held in a very small arena and most of the audience are grandmas… 2023 Grand Prix Final is held in a big arena, and almost full on free skate day even without one Chinese skater. The audience are also much younger. I came across many Chinese fans who spent thousands of Yuan traveling from other part of China to Beijing to see him compete, and they wanted to buy tickets to see him compete again at Four Continents Championship next month in Shanghai if Ilia is in. The popularity of Ilia will def grow in Japan as well if he keeps winning titles. Actually before he wins any major title, he has already been invited to many ice shows in Japan. Talking about the sponsors, he will def have that if he becomes the next olympic favorite before 2026. This is just his second senior season.
@@yolandaguo7153 Ilia’s agent Ari has connections to the skating shows and got him invited. It’s not an indication of him being super popular in Japan. The general public there has no clue who he is, as is the same in China. No way would he become similarly as popular as Hanyu in China. Nathan (also American) already had a lot of sponsors after his first senior season and more mainstream press coverage.
@@potatochip-8 Maybe he doesn’t get much press coverage in the US because of his russian roots? Most American people are russian-phobia lol. And he speaks Russian sometimes. I actually think his coach, his father, should speak to him in English in public. But that’s not a big deal. We all know America is an immigration country. I wouldn’t say his popularity will be the same as Hanyu. Hanyu becomes so popular in Japan and China mainly because he’s the first Asian men’s figure skating olympic champion. Ilia is not Asian. But considering this is just his second senior season and he hasn’t won any championships, his popularity is great already.
Me too, and my heart goes out for him, I like him the most. I saw him “live” once and Gosh, did he lit the ice!!! Really, not only the rink, but the whole city quarter around
Yep, totally separate track from “Christmastime is Here” which opens the special. It’s lovely, I’ve always wanted to skate to it. Dave, you did know Charles Schulz was a skater himself, didn’t you?
Really like the input from a top skater. Any chance Ashley Wagner would do one? Or maybe just an interview? She's so opinionated, which in my book is a great thing!
Hana Yoshida has a lot of potential to be competition for Kaori but she's not a good sp skater and her lutz technique scares the crap out of me. I think her takeoff is too quick and she doesn't really stretch her free leg before picking. The entire takeoff just looks very rushed.
I tried to give Ilia a chance, but the kid just doesn’t have the it factor. Him and his agent Ari are pushing this narrative that he’s a superstar - frankly, it’s cringeworthy. Legends are anointed by others, not by themselves.
Alissa is a FABULOUS and very informative, professional co-host! I love her technical and artistic reviews. She is a total professional. WOW. She is a natural. Thanks Dave for breaking down the GP Finals! You are the best.
The fact that nobody chose DeBarge song Rhythm Of The Night for the rhythm dance ☹️. I would have chosen Rhythm Of The Night and I Like It. Has anyone ever skated to DeBarge songs?
I am very fed up up the Russian Russian Russian coverage in TSL. It's been dominating every TSL presentation. At the very least, it should be a footnote or mention at the end and not a lead story.
Then this probably isn’t the right channel for you. Russia has historically and will likely always continue to be a major player in figure skating. Their involvement or non-involvement impacts the sport.
@sleuthewild Me too. I honestly do suspect Dave is doing some covered lobbying for them, no matter his criticism. But he seems to have bought this old myth about their greatness
OMG I LIIIIIIIVE for "This time I know it's for real" so friggin catchy and that video is camp as all get out. It's such a kinda not super popular song but me and this bartender a a gay bar in the west village always play it and now the DJ plays it downstairs on the dance floor and I've heard it elsewhere, OMG if this was an icedance program I'd fall right the hell out my chair!
So disappointed that there was no coverage of Neset and Markelov in your review. They are much better (at least for me) than the majority of seniors. Also, what on earth was that pairs coverage? Ten minutes rumbling about Deanna and that’s your pairs done? Boo!
Dave answered why I can't warm up to Ilia. I would like him if he just embraced being Russian. He is a young Alexei Yagudin with his comments earlier this year that he needs to be gay to improve his PCS combined with his swagger.
I have one word "Trusova" why aren't her pcs scores under 6 (as per the ISU video in which she features, demonstrating skating skills that should score no more than 6).
Madison Chock has great lines, posture and body movement. However, her skating skills are still lacking. She is one of the weakest female ice dance world champions in over 20 years. The judges rewards their performance quality, no issue with. But the judges giving them 9.50 and 9.75 in SS is disgusting. They beat the Italians in Skating skills, which is an abomination.
Exactly... Honestly Italians should be like 0,5/ 0,75 points in front of C/B in skating skills and a full point if not even more ahead of Gilles Poirier... The Candians really have bad skating skills and someone still get 9s/9,25s.
I love Fear and Gibson b/c that chick? Fear? Oh... that's just her last name b/c besides that?! She has none. Also Lewis Gibson gives me short king vibes and I think he's so ridiculously good looking and such a little pocket elf that I want for the holidays.
Shoma's FP concept is his skating journey
coach's suggestion
Choreography: Kenji Miyamoto
story in his heart
"Mirror in the mirror"
he likes this work
He says he will have it completed by the World Championships.
Coach is saddened by NHK's scoring and suggests resignation from GPF
But Shoma participated.
He said he wanted to perform to make his coach happy.
The 2019 coach saved him.
His motivation is to express his coach's work.
I can not speak English
Sorry for the confusing text
大切な事を伝えてくれてありがとう😭😭😭
@@sk7844 あまりに酷い評価が悔しかったので😭
同じくです…😭
ただ1つ言える事は「嫌い」という感情であってもその人の心を支配してる事に変わり無い。好き嫌いという感情が生まれることは強烈な魅力がある証だと思う。
昌磨さん流石やで‼︎‼︎‼︎🔥
最後の二行
The 2019 coach saved him. His motivation is to express his coach's work. の部分、意味が分からない。
日本語で書いてくれますか？
Regarding the still face: Shoma reminds me of Patrick Chan in this regard. Both of their expression comes from the blade and body movement, Shoma of course having more lovely arms but I was just watching some of Patrick's old programs and when Alyssa made the comment about his still head, it reminded me of how I watched Patrick. For me, there is no need of excess facial expression, what the body and blade just draw my attention.
Shoma's still head is a myth, he uses head and I like it each time. As for the still face it's quite normal I guess - fk has its own language, body language not face
wow to say that you don't connect emotionally to a skater that you said is perfect and really good because he doesn't move his head is just so lame and silly , that's just an excuse....you just don't like him.......then what about ugly, stiff and awkward moves you connect emotionally with that??????☹😵😵💫
I'm so, so glad Alissa and Dave had that whole section on spins because it is absolutely true--skating culture as a whole have shown very little care for quality spins while they are more than happy to write aggressive essays and debates on what is and what is not "textbook" jumping.
There were several instances when the judges actually rewarded poor laybacks and change-foot combos with comparable, if not even higher GOEs, than that of Alissa's back when she competed! The two otherwise-lovely skaters Dave briefly mentioned regarding the layback were one of those instances.
Alissa's spins were/are glorious - I go back and revisit them often!
5:53 Olympics News
18:54 Junior Women (Mao Shimada vs Jia Shin)
28:49 Golden Spin/ Kevin Aymoz/ Trauma in Skating
46:31 Women
- 46:45 Kaori Sakamoto
- 50:20 Isabeau Levito
( 54:10 Aside about 2011 Nationals for Czisny and her coaching change )
- 1:03:07 Hana Yoshida and Rion Sumiyoshi
- 1:06:16 Niina Petrõkina (I think Dave meant Nina Pinzarrone)
- 1:07:32 Loena Hendrickx
1:10:18 Men
- 1:10:29 Shoma Uno
- 1:15:55 Yuma Kagiyama
- 1:19:00 Kao Muira
- 1:20:40 Ilia Malinin
1:27:32 Pairs
- 1:27:38 Stellato-Dudek/Deschampe
- 1:37:14 Conti/Macii
1:43:39 Dance
- 1:43:43 Fear/Gibson
- 1:48:09 Fournier Beaudry/Sørensen
- 1:52:51 Lajoie/Lagah
( 1:54:53 ‘80s Music)
- 1:58:07 Gilles/Poirier
- 2:00:48 Chock/Bates
Thank you!
amazing
Thank you so much. I like to skip ahead to the discussions I'm most interested in. Then if I have time, go back to the general chat.
Thanks so much!!!
THANK YOU
I've noticed that Dave advocates that skaters abandon programs somewhat frequently. I respectfully disagree. In non-Olympic years, I think it's so important for the skaters to experiment and step outside their comfort zones so that they find what does and doesn't work for them. Sticking with old programs or with formulas that have worked in the past is a recipe for staleness.
I think Rion Sumiyoshi has good upside potential. I'm interested in seeing how she develops.
Whether or not I agree with everything or nothing, always appreciate hearing Dave's opinion and those of his guests - thank you!
I think it depends on the stakes. For a skater like Shoma, it genuinely doesn't matter whether he gets a gold or bronze at Worlds. I don't even think it matters to Shoma that much lol (Although I'd love to see Dancing On My Own again 😭). But for a skater like Jun or Hana or Kevin music and packaging is the difference between a bronze and 8th place. If you're not in the conversation then I'd say changing programs after the Grand Prix makes a lot of sense, not that I'm advocating that any of the skaters above in particular should change their programs. But if your season isn't going well and you're just barely in the conversation for a medal, then you need every bit of fire power you can get imo.
To suggest that SHOMA change his FP is shocking to me. That program is a work of art that Shoma believes in so strongly. It's going to be epic when it's performed to the standard Shoma has set for himself. It's already so beautiful that it moves me to tears every time!
I think Shoma has a good camel. Even Jenny Kirk has said on TSL Live that his camel is good. I don't understand what you find so wrong with it.
Madison Chock as a future consultant for packaging would be brilliant.
I really appreciated Alissa's perspective here. She's such a beautiful skater herself. She made some really good points. Her comments about how spins seem to be devalued was very interesting. She made a great observation about skaters being lazy by using what they KNOW will get the level instead of choosing difficulty AND aesthetics.
Madison’s packaging is impeccable!
She reminds me of a Sasha Cohen of ice dance now; great packaging, great pictures, not the best skating skills, but you forgive it for the performance (but in no way can she match or top my queen Sasha)
@@zb6070 Sasha was amazing
I wouldn't compare.
Yes, agree. Alissa perspective is excellent.
I believe you liked Shoma’s I love you very much. Why you change your opinion so fast?
Something to note: Mao and Jia are not same in terms of figure skating age. Like Alina Zagitova did, Jia Shin will be making her senior debut in the Olympic season for 2026, but Mao, born a couple months later, will have to stay in juniors for a year longer. Mao will have to wait for the 2030 Olympics, reminds me of how Japanese fans were so sad that Mao Asada couldn't make it to the 2006 Olympics while doing much harder content at junior worlds than any senior woman in Torino.
Missed the golden opportunity and during then, technical like triple axel was not so appreciated. Mao actually did 2, one in combination. Salute. To me, Mao Asada is always special.
Thank you for this episode, I missed Jonathan but also loved this discussion so very much.
Kaori’s programs this year as not as captivating like last year’s ones but boy do I Love them anyway ahah they’re growing on me, competition by competion. Love the fact that she’s skating like a champion- that 3 loop 2 toe (was it a toe?) at the end of her free was amazinggg! Loena doesn’t convince me that much, especially for the free (she sells the short much better). I love Yelim’s programs this year and I’m so sad she hasn’t been consistent.
Other random things: I love the quietness of shoma’ skating. Omg, it brought me to tears. Next level.
Also, loved the Italians this time around! They were pissed about NHK trophy and it showed in their performance, in the power and confidence they displayed. Thank u for an other insightful tsl!
Hi there! Just wanted to comment on your comment about the Italians (and also agree with you about Kaori's programs this season). Oof, you're so right! I could literally see Charlène's intensity, but for me, that sort of took me out of what is typically a gorgeous program, especially the RD. Imo, the intention was there, but she didn't emote for me quite as well as she otherwise has this season, quite possibly because anger (or frustration or annoyance or something along those lines) seemed to be the overarching emotion I sensed. But hey, that's just me. I respect everyone's opinions, so feel free to disagree! (As if you need permission, haha) However, after establishing the lead that they did with their RD, I do feel that she emoted far better in their FD.
To be quite honest, while I 1,000% respect the hell out of the Italian team, I don't really love them quite as much as others do (mostly referring to the FS subreddit in this sense, lol). And WHOA ... at NHK, when Charlène acted the way she did to Lilah after F/G's win, I lost a bit of respect for her. Like, hold up a second. You are EXCELLENT at what you do! You know this! Lilah didn't call her and Lewis's elements or score their own program! If she absolutely *had* to be angry about it, I wish she'd have directed that anger toward the judges and/or tech panel, not the athletes. It was very much giving sore loser vibes. Camaraderie is always the way to go and we see it all the time! They should be praising and lifting each other up, not acting salty about it and being rude to another skater/team. Not to mention, literally any and everyone who follows Ice Dance speculated that the podium at the GPF would be C/B, G/F, and G/P, in some particular order. Lilah and Lewis just aren't quite there yet (especially in terms of skating skills).
I do know that Lilah's dad is rich and pours a lot of money into the sport, but as far as I've seen in terms of competitions (pretty much all I can afford to since I'm a crazy FS fan, lol), Lilah has always been supportive of the Italians when she and Lewis compete against them and Charlène and Marco win (which is essentially EVERY time, so Lilah and Lewis winning one single time is really not that deep and it wouldn't have hurt for her to be happy for Lilah one single time). Charlène is obviously highly competitive, which can be great fuel for great programs, if channeled well, but directing her anger for getting silver at another skater is absolutely NOT it for me. Plus, silver is still pretty darn impressive and the Italians would have still qualified for the GPF even with just bronze! So yeah, that left a really bad taste in my mouth, especially since it was the final GP event in the series before the GPF. And I want to like them so much! (I do love Marco, though ... he seems like a very stable and solid partner and really knows how to keep it together, apparently.)
At any rate, I was thrilled that C/B won at the GPF! I've been following them for years, and in the absence of all the former incredible ID teams that came before (like P/C - my GOATs - but I love so many teams), they are definitely due for many, many golds in the "wait-your-turn" discipline that is Ice Dance! Needless to say, I am quite excited for Worlds! It will be quite interesting since it's in Montreal and 4 of the 5 top teams train at IAM, so I imagine it will be REALLY close and a real nail-biter!
Geez ... I apologize for the unintentional essay. Thanks for reading all that and I hope you have a wonderful day! :)
I totally agree judging needs to take a better look at the spins. They're just tossing out numbers when there's so much difference between a good spinner and someone who just completed a spin as a requirement.
Clarifying some confusion about Shoma's Great Spirit program --Great Spirit was choreographed for Shoma in 2018-2019 but was as an EX to be used in 2019 summer ice shows. He began 2019-2020 without a coach. The Great Spirit EX was reworked to be suitable as his SP for the 2019-2020 season. When he had his 2019 IdF disastrous 9th place finish, Stephane happened to be at that same competition with Koshiro and Deniss. He suggested to Shoma that possibly he could help, and Shoma went to Champery just to train for a while. Stephane was with Shoma for his Rostelecom Cup assignment, where he placed 4th, missing the podium by .38. At 2019 J-Nats, he just sorta kinda let it slip that Stephane would be his new coach. He skated Great Spirit there and won J-Nats that year.
Great Spirit is one of the greatest men's short programs of all time, in my opinion. But Shoma could skate around in circles for the duration of a program, and I'd be enthralled! Confused, but enthralled. LOL
@@christinethorp3684 Agree 100%. I was thrilled when he made it his SP. That 2019 Nats performance was epic! I've lost track of how many times I've watched it!!!!
Thank you for very interesting conversation. But I was confused when you said that Shoma’s programs don’t work, and Ilya’s Spanish short is a brilliant solution. This may be true, but the difference in the basic skills of both skaters is so big that no costume or monotonous music can level it out. This difference is about the same as between Patrick Chan and Kevin van der Perren. The Japanese can just skate in a circle and it will be at 9.50.
We are discussing what is good for the skater. Ilias’s short is the best he can do for now. There is a lower ceiling in terms of ability. Shoma has far more ability. In my opinion, previous Shoma programs would give him more of a competitive advantage artistically over Ilia. And the judges would also need to differentiate more.
@@TheSkatingLesson Why do you think that the Spanish theme is the best solution now? The Spanish style is one of the most complex in choreography; it requires very clear lines in all poses, aplomb, sharpness, graphic poses and precise forms. This requires high quality skills, but performer doesn’t have any skills. Malagueña can only be successful if the performer has a high level of skill. To me this looks like Maxim Kovtun only worse.
@@DeserveGoldagree, but Americans doesn't understand this, it's like Isabeau and other Russians doing the Egypt boring hand move all the time when an oriental music start to play...
@@DeserveGold There's a reason why Malaguena is warhorse and for a period of time it seemed like everyone at every level was using it. It's "easy" music to skate to; Put on a Spanish outfit, sprinkle some cliche Spanish poses throughout the performance and you have a program.
I like the version of Malaguena chosen for Ilia's SP, and he has complicated choreography. I do agree that his poses don't have the sharpness of lines that you would see from a trained dancer. That's something his choreographer should work with him on to take his performance up another level.
@@DeserveGold Hi there, I have to be honest. From your messages, it sounds like you are emotional about the results and not understanding what I am trying to be diplomatic about saying. Ilia has a lower artistic ceiling, but the Malaguena program brings out the best of what he can do. Shae-Lynn did a good job of maximizing what he is good at. It has those hops and arm movements that make Ilia look more engaged and engaging. It brings out the best of what he can currently do. It brings him to about a low 8 in my opinion (performance). I think Ilia's free at the GPF was in the 7s for me.
Shoma is capable of being at or close to a 10. His current programs don't have the emotion that he is usually able to deliver and captivate us with (Dancing On My Own, Bach's Air of a G String). Thus, his current programs are a low 9 for me, when he should usually be at a 9.5 to 9.75 for performance.
I firmly believe that Shoma needs to switch his programs to force the judges to recognize more of a difference between him and Ilia (and him and Yuma, which could be even more critical).
The skater doing the quads a few years ago was Rika Kihira, who also did 3As. She was Japanese number one OVER Kaori. She got hurt or she would be the one going for three championships now.
Kaori was new on the scene when Rika was injured. Rika has not been able to regain her 3Axel like she had years before.
@@deirdrekiely6187 What are you talking about? Sakamoto is 2 years older than Rika. Rika made her senior debut the year after Kaori went to the Olympics. Rika won her 2 National titles after Kaori won her first national title.
@@deirdrekiely6187Kaori literally debuted on the Seniors on Rika’s JGP breakthrough season.
Interestingly I don’t think so
Rika wasnt consistent
I really hope Ilia’s team watches this because a Sandra program is EXACTLY what he needs next year! 🤞🏻🙏🏻
Mark Hanretty said later that Kao Muira had a stomach sickness that prevented him from being at the practices.
Hana Yoshida was so good. Her short was a little sloppy but I love the music, it’s so different and she showed versatility with a contrasting long program style. She is SO powerful, and her back and shoulders are Sasha-cohen-straight on her landings. The final sit spin was so fast and centered too.
I enjoyed her, too!
I think she's amazing. I'm surprised people don't seem to get her free program. They need to watch some videos of birds, maybe cranes. I'm not sure if she's a crane, but it seems like it.
I agree with Alissa that Yuma was off here in both programs and wasn't really giving the same energy or emotion that we saw from him at NHK. He kept landing on the inside edge on a lot of his jumps, which is unusual for him. Usually he lands on that beautiful, flowing outside edge that has become his signature. Hopefully he can finally skate a clean free at Japanese Nationals.
Thanks for putting the show together so fast!
❤️🙏
GPF winner Alyssa is famous in Japan as well.
Alyssa's spin is gorgeous
George Winston's program is very popular
Alyssa's statement was used by Shoma's haters.
"High PCS is not appropriate"
i was sad about that
I didn’t like Shoma’s long program at all when I first saw it. Like Alisa said before, it is a very challenging music to skate with. But every time he skates, it grows on me. Adam Rippon said on his podcast, “I hate the music, but I love it when Shoma skates.“
I really, really like Shomas new programs. When I listen you complaining about them, I think we live in different realities. But ok, cultural differences I guess 😅
Complain is a strong word! They aren’t my favorite for him. His own skating has such high standard.
I don’t love Shoma’s new free program, especially the music or the costume, but I so admire what he’s done with it. Shoma is reaching for his own brand of perfect skating now and it is absolutely mesmerizing to watch him. Dave, I think you are fascinated more by the competitive and political aspects of skating. Shoma still feels a responsibility to compete (of course he does, he’s Japanese and has Duty stamped on his soul), but his goal is to perfect his artistic skating with Stephane by his side.
I don't know. Shoma is my favourite ever but the artistic direction since he has been with Lambiel and led by Lambiel is a miss for me. I still love watching him skate and i still think he is the best but i truly miss when Shoma soared to the music and when his programs built towards the end. This all concept of liminal music that Lambiel seems to be going for as to showcase Shoma's gorgeous skating and movements might be a good idea in theory but it's still kind of a miss in my opinion. The free is ok but the short really is a tough listen.
I really love them, too! More than ever, I feel he's reaching a place where it's just beyond words.
Honestly, I think these are some of Shoma’s most expressive programs. I have images of him skating on a pond in the rain in the daylight with his free. It’s so gorgeous.
Dave on that discussion about the mental aspect, I think Mao Shimada is actually another one. Her reaction after coming second in the short was quite shocking to me. I don’t think she is at all equipped not to win. She made one small mistake but looked absolutely devastated. I hope she can hold up mentally over the coming years.
I hope the pressure isn't coming from her coaching team. My sense is she is a perfectionist and is upset when she doesn't skate clean. I hope she is able to cope with mistakes because they will happen.
Her coach looks ok with her mistake. It's her, perfectionist but if she is able to get it over after a cry. It's ok.
@@sohlangan Agreed, I didn't get the impression it was coming from the coach in this case, I think she just has very high expectations of herself. And of course has never lost a competition internationally as far as I know, so she will have to learn how to deal with this - it's gonna happen at some point.
Yes, I am a bit worried too. But as everyone else here I’m also inclined to believe that unhealthy pressure is not coming from the coaches. Hana Yoshida has the same coaching team and she kinda always look happy, no matter what. And she has lost and made mistakes multiple times but was given time to gently develop, cause they obviously trust her potential, and now she is rising. Fingers crossed for her success! As for Mao, she is still very young and needs to mature, really hope her team is helping her with it.
She probably does perfect run throughs in practice, and then misses in competition.
So disappointing
Omg Alissa, you're killing me with your Shoma takes, I say that in a non-aggressive way LOL. Because I get that everyone has their own opinions but it just BLOWS MY MIND that her main complaint about Shoma is that she can't connect emotionally because personally that was the #1 thing that drew me to him! I feel everything! That being said, I do agree that his free program isn't the best. I WANT to like it more than I actually like it. I really do LOVE the SP though.
My biggest takeaway from the GPF was Nina's free program. It seemed to be constructed by someone who doesn't understand music with its different highs and lows and punctuations. And even when there seemed to be some thought involved in timing moves to the music, the moves were incomplete. The composition mark should be much lower. I think she has real promise and potential, but that free program is glaringly off. Maybe I was so bothered because the music itself is lovely, but the actual program seemed so disconnected from it.
Also, does anyone else remember that Rostelecom when Alexander Samarin took the gold? His performance was WORK in the worst way. Yes, he landed hard jumps. There was zero artistry and zero enjoyment from him (or me!) in that performance. Shoma Uno competed there, too. He fell a lot. It was one of his worst outings. Samarin outscored Shoma in components, and I remember thinking that I would much rather watch Shoma fall with style than watch Samarin skate even his best. So go ahead and nitpick Shoma; we all want to see him improve and be his best. But I know that watching Shoma's quad flip will always be easier for me than watching skaters like Samarin or Grassl at their best.
A difference of 1.0 between 4Lz and 4A is obviously too small, considering that the difference between 2Lz and 2A is 1.2 and the difference between 3Lz and 3A is 2.1. Logically, the difference between 4Lz and 4A should be greater than 2.1. Something around 15 for 4A would appear reasonable to me.
By the way, I have always wondered who decides the scale of values and what procedure is used for that. Is there a report documenting the process?
I also think that the multiplicative factor of the PCS for both the men's SP and FP should be increased - an outstanding TS for the SP is about 60-65 points and an outstanding TS for the FP is about 110-125. In contrast, the max. PCS is 50 and 100 points, respectively. Such adjustment would benefit skaters who are particularly strong in the PCS.
I agree with Dave about Ilia. He seems very Russian, to me. But Alissa's comments were interesting, since she knows him from Stars on Ice. I agree that he will get better in his presentation. But right now, I don't connect with him like I did with Nathan.
I miss Nathan so much!!
On a lighter note, isn't it amazing that Japan had at least 1 medalist in the past 17 GPFs (men)?
Curious to know which program/s (of Shoma) is/are liked by Dave and Jonathan and who would they choose as choreographer for him (aside from Bourne, Lambiel, Higuchi, Miyamoto and Wilson).
I have no faith in the ISU doing anything regarding the systemic doping issue in Russia.
Or anything about the blatant overscoring. :/
Ya. Honestly if Russia comes back I don’t know how it’s going to ever grow in North America again .I appreciate the skating from them but it’s hard to have a level playing field with such different systems. I don’t want to watch them win every medal again
What can they do in regards to doping? I think the biggest change they can make is to change the rules that only three random skaters get tested at each competition and have it be all medalists and three others chosen at random.
@@DSQueeniealready how it's done
So much nicer to watch clean sport. I won't be watching any future dopefests.
I think Dave clearly forgets geopolitics when talking about summer and winter sports. It’s very different with winter sports where so many northern countries dominate, countries who are and always have been threatened by Russia, there is no way those countries are willing to host Russian athletes. I live in northern Europe, I know how massive this opposition is. And you both are wrong when you say that no one is talking about Ukraine anymore. Maybe not where you are, but remember Ukrainian war is still the only one conflict in the world when the big power unprovoked invades another sovereign country and continues to threaten the rest of the world with nuclear weapons. This gives totally different geopolitics which plays a role for sports as well.
IJS keeps rewarding “mediocre” skating as long as you have the jumps, which is why there are no (except for a very few) “real” stars anymore. Until it is applied correctly and/or weighted to be more at par with the ceiling of technical content… IJS was supposed to be the answer to the judging politics but really has been a more sophisticated tool to push a skater up and down the rankings
Part of it is the scoring system. Ilia can get 120 in TES but another skater with lower TES but more artistry can only, in theory, get 100 in PCS. Since no one gets all 10s, the best PCS is probably 97 or 98.
@@skatefan9495 Yes, Which is why the PCS factor multiplier needs to be adjusted so it can be at par with the tech points. But at the same time it needs to be applied correctly. It’s pretty laughable that the difference between Shoma and Ilia is only less than a point. It’s like we have no eyes.
@@Purplechemist395You’re suggesting going back to 6.0 system, a corrupt judging system which leads to a lot of big scandals? This is a different era. Figure skating has no stars not because it’s lacked of artistic skaters. Actually there are still many artistic skaters such as Jason Brown, Kevin Aymoz. But they won’t become a star coz they are pretty weak technically. The prerequisite of becoming a star is having difficult jumps. Like it or not, most of fans watching singles figure skating today prefer hard jumps over artistry. If artistry is the priority, ice dance should’ve been the most popular discipline but in fact it’s much less popular than single’s skating.
I was in the arena too watching the final. The truth is Ilia is more of a star than any other skaters, even Shoma Uno. He got the loudest screams and most plushies. The audience like him the most, especially the young girls 😂All the figure skating fans on China’s social media were talking about him. So being a star doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with being artistic.
Re: 80s songs --- Is anyone as shocked as I am that NO ONE picked PETER GABRIEL, KATE BUSH, or TALKING HEADS?!? Too little love for moody or alternative 80s. (David Byrne was such an ambassador of dance, too!) If I missed someone dancing to these artists, please correct me!
SO agree with Peter Gabriel and no one skating to Kate Bush (esp after last year's Running Up That Hill) Dave Byrne - you are inspired!! Yes! I would have loved some Sade or Yazoo (they had a different name in the USA)/Alison Moyet and no Whitney Houston or Tina Turner?
80's New Wave is so under represented!
@@mammaotter5886 Can you imagine a New Order RD or ABC/Duran Duran/Spandau Ballet/Thompson Twins/Flock of Seagulls/Psychedelic Furs/The Cure even Wham (not just George Michael)
I'm sure I've heard Kate Bush. Can't remember who though.
I so needed Wham, Duran Duran, Soft Cell, The Smiths, New Order, Joy Division, The Cure, Alison Moyet (Yazoo), Dire Straits, Culture Club, Madonna, Lionel Ritchie, Stevie Wonder and more Eurythmics (other than Sweet Dreams). Talking of Stevie Wonder - can you picture Fear/Gibson doing a Stevie Wonder FD in a coming season based around Sir Duke??
Alissa, like you - it took me a long time to "get" Shoma. Prior to him joining Stephane - I could take or leave Shoma. I would watch him, agree he was talented but felt "meh". Then he went to Stephane, and the first thing I saw was Japanese Nationals and his SP to Great Spirit, and a new Shoma emerged. I've loved him from that moment to now. I would happily just watch him do edge exercises and basic skating skills and enjoy the elegance of it - a bit like watching Javi and Yuzu just skating up and down the ice with their amazing skating skills.
Shoma was still with his Japanese coaches when he did that "Great Spirit" short program, which was before the 2018 Olympics. Shoma didn't move to Stephane until about 2020.
I also didn’t really start to appreciate Shoma as much until he went to Stephan either. He just seemed to believe in himself more after that & it translated into his skating.
Yes, others tend to view him as No 2 in Japan, overshadowed by Yuzuru. Both are good skaters.
I agree, I could watch Shoma just skate up and down a rink forever. Shoma adopted Stephane as his coach during the 2019 Grand Prix season. His programs at that point were Great Spirit and Dancing on My Own. He beat Yuzuru Hanyu for the first time at 2019 Japanese Nationals and moved to Champery, Stephane’s rink, in 2020. So Stephane was his new coach the year he had that electrifying skate to Great Spirit.
Actually, Great Spirit was an exhibition program for Shoma in summer 2018, redone as a competitive program for the 2019 season.
On quads active skater few years back that were non-Rissian, i can think of Rika Kihira. Her triple axel and quad salchow. It's not easy for women skater to attempt quads, risk of injury. Missing her's skating and positive attitude be it win or loss.
Loving the section on judges being overly generous with top skaters having bad spins. Even if a spin had decent speed and positions towards the end, if it traveled and took them a while to pull it in, there should be minuses
I hope Ilia continues to do things on his own terms.
Last thing he needs is everyone tell him how he has to be. If the Russian style is to his taste,
I hope he fully embraces and adds his own to it! So excited watching his progress!
I read somewhere that Kaitlyn and Jean-Luc had planned a rhythm dance to "With or Without You" but who knows if we will ever see it. Fingers crossed we do. I agree with Alissa that if they skate it perfectly, Piper and Paul could edge Chock and Bates with that RD, but that's a big if. I feel very torn because I honestly love both Wuthering Heights and Pink Floyd as programs. And I've hated Pink Floyd for decades so if those two can have me reconsider my feelings and listen to Dark Side of the Moon 43 times this year, which my Apple Music says I did, then I salute them. It must be that Dali dress or the gummies I ate.
Thoughts are with Jonathan! :( I would love Alissa's take on the junior dance team that won .... they were incredible, and I thought they had the best skating skills out of all the dance teams, junior and senior. I predict they will be on top in a couple of years! Great episode as always :)
They were amazing - so much potential - I would love to know more about their coach too!
what happened to Jonathan?
@@yosily same. Where’s Jonathan
There are some artists or movies from the 80s that haven't been represented yet. No one has done Van Halen, Dirty Dancing, a John Hughes film theme, Fame, the Police, Wham, and the Bangles. There are of course more, but instead of so many Prince and MJ routines. Also an 80s aerobic routine, which I believe Papadakis and Cizeron have done, but I feel could still be fun.
Dirty Dancing would have been a great program concept, esp. with the iconic Baby & Johnny dance lift!! 🤩 So sad no one jumped on this theme
I love the fact that Chock and Bates is not a parody or the 80’s, they are dancing to Queen and the choreo is on the mark. I prefer that to the ridiculous over the top program of the Italians, and I think Piper and Paul’s first music is not impactful enough, and they don’t make enough of the fantastic driving beat and percussion highlights of Addicted to Love. I also think their ballroom holds don’t match the era.
I do agree here. My comment about Chock and Bates was in response to judges feeling that Top Gun wasn’t 80s enough. It has caused me to look at everything with the question of whether it gives the look and feel of the 80s as opposed to merely being a song from the 80s or film from the 80s.
I love the Italians both programs music is fun for the short beautiful for the free I just don’t like the outfits for the short but performance is great
I don't understand Paul's 80's outfit. Piper's is cool. I also don't know why they're doing traditional dance holds, it looks out of place with the music and the theme.
I’m old enough to remember that guys did dress like that in the 80s. In Australia we would call them a total spunk 🤣
So happy you made a video for my routine Sunday! Too bad I just starting listening to this at 2am. Sleep will have to wait
Thank you for another engaging informative and entertaining TSL. Thoughts are with Jonathan. Loved the discussions on spins - would really like them to be worth more, marked correctly, and acknowledgement that a held position in the correct manner, is better than several dodgy positions.
My moments of seniors: Ilia's quad axel (still slightly confused: rules; two axels in the SP are permitted? There was an "x" in the boxes) in the SP; Kevin's step sequence in the SP and choreo seq in the FP; Hana's triple axel; Kaori - presence of mind and athleticism; double toe on the end of triple loop right at the end of her program; anything Deanna does (even when it's not perfect - love her!). JPG - Mao Shimada - triple axel and quad toe and wow, PLEASE I want to know more: - USA Ice Dance Leah NESET / Artem MARKELOV - and their coach (used to dance with Maxim Shabalin) - I thought they had (the best sort of) "Russian" quality.
Remember when Alyssa Liu was competing against the Russians, and her first jumping pass in the SP was 3A 3T, then a 2A and another triple - she got around the one axel type jump by putting the 3A as the start of a combination. Junior GP Final 2019 I believe.
@@hellsbellsmichellebut are two axels aloud if one is not in combination?
Ilia's quad axel was counted as a solo jump after he did the jump combination and 3A. The reason it was initially invalidated is because the 4A is essentially a new element in the SP that the actual computer system had not accounted for; because it hadn't been recognized as a solo jump before, it was counted as an axel type jump and was invalidated. This meant that later, the call had to be validated manually, which was what occurred after Ilia had done his 3A. The initial invalidated call was probably why one judge left a -5, although there are a multitude of reasons it's most likely that the judge did not see that it was later validated, and left the -5 there because an element that isn't allowed as per the requirements gets an automatic -5 GOE (this appears to be a new rule for this season only).
OMG Alissa is giving glam today! Such a natural beauty so when she dolls up she REALLY is luminous!
I MISS the classic layback displayed by Angela!
100%
I do appreciate you saying the bit about Ilia appearing very Russian, I've thought that many times watching him. He's sort of filling the role of a Russian man.
When people describe Isabeau's skating as "light" and "delicate", what does this mean in terms of speed, skating skills and mastery of the blade? How does one skate "light"? Skate "delicate"? Or are these nice ways for saying she skates slowly and in small patterns? No snark here. I'm genuinely curious.
Ilia's victory was fair but it wasn't memorable at all. People compare him to Nathan but Nathan is miles ahead of Ilia in terms of interpretation and quality. Ilia only has jumps but they aren't aesthetically good jumps, they don't have flow and they are just crashing in the ice dramatically...
Ilia has a lot more than jumps, I love his performances, both sp and free skate. Personally for me his free skate was the most exciting and amazing in this competition, I watched it for about 20 times.
@@alexander28110 good for you. But as Spanish person his sp was embarrassing since he doesn't have that quality to get into that music. And his fp was chaotic, just a mix of jumps with big music and cheap costume. There are juniors with much more style than him. And he is 19, he is not going to be better, he just don't have big presence in the ice. But well, I am happy you enjoyed him 😉
@@kathhqq7ok :)
Not memorable? 6 quads including a quad axel! All the figure skating fans on China’s social media were talking about it after the free skate. I was in the arena too watching the competition live. Ilia is the most popular skater of all. His popularity even surpasses the veteran Shoma Uno. Hard to believe it coz this is his second senior season. Many audience came to see him compete. That is why the organizer makes the men’s free last event on the agenda. Not a single audience left. The audience like him very much, especially the young girls😂 lots of plushies…
@@ChastakenI find your words more embarrassing, trying so hard to devalue a skater who has so much talent and hard work. Anyway you can go on hating on him. Ilia goes Ilia’s way, ofc a way to success. If I wasn’t there watching the final, I wouldn’t find out how popular he is becoming in reality coz there’re haters like you online always whining. But there are more people who like him and support him. He is attracting many young audience to this aged sport. And the aged audience like you obviously can’t appreciate him. Different generations have different tastes.
Neset & Markelov, Chock & Bates, Jia Shin and Ilia Malinin were the only skaters I watched, who have the X factor for me.
Dave, I agree with you on two things. First, Kao. I find I’m very distracted by his look on the ice:lack of overall packaging, and my goodness the hair! Maybe Shoma could point him in the right direction as his hair has improved over the years.
Second, I had the very same thoughts on Ilia. The Succession program feels very Russian to me. His gaining appeal and attention in the US will depend on young people being able to relate to the programs he puts out there. Both programs this season miss the mark in that regard. Technically he’ s exciting to watch though, and that will pull some people in even if the programs are rather dull.
The thing about antidoping, is that it's not to prevent cheating(simply because it's impossible, the dopers are always a step ahead), but it is a means of harm reduction. If there were no antidoping whatsoever, we would be seeing people keel over left and right etc. Sure it doesn't stop everything, but it would be so much worse if there wasn't testing.
I'm a cycling fan, so I've thought a lot about doping. Cycling has more testing than almost any other sport, but we still see more and more unbelievable performances, antidoping definitely is not perfect, and they should always be striving for improvement, but inherently there is only so much they can do.
I so LOVE the German Pair team. I can't wait to see their journey.
I would love to see what Christopher Dean or John Kerr could do for Deanna and Max. Unconvential thought - yes. But could be spectacular.
Yes, Germans...are gem.
I didn’t like the Chock/Bates FD at the beginning of the year. However, I really loved it this weekend.
I think it was Rika Alissa was trying to think of who was doing quads a few years ago.
Yes!
Rika Kihira-quad salchow
I believe Rika injured herself trying to do the quads trying to compete with the junked up Russians that pushed her out of being fit for Olympics (and almost everything else since).
I think competing against the Russians really hurt the ladies field - some of them ruined their bodies trying to compete technically, like Wakaba and Young, and I think it ruined everyone's confidence.
And Rika Kihira :(
So true. I fear Wakaba will never be the same and that’s so sad.
Finally got through the whole show; was amazing to hear you two banter! And the tea!
❤️❤️🙏
I say this as someone who grew up watching Yagudin and Plushenko: Ilia may be American, but his lines, hands, fingertips and even cheekbones are Russian. For this reason, I don't think that making him look or act more American is a better way to improve his artistry than working on what he already has. It will be good enough once it's fully polished. The love/hate emotional response seems to fire him up more than being liked by everyone anyway.
What his team needs to do immediately, though, is to get their act together in terms of how they dress him. His outfit in the free program was so badly cut that it completely overwhelmed him. He looked like a primary school boy wearing his older brother's suit.
Shoma does move his head though. I don't get that dig 😂
Obviously he 'uses his head', but Alissa is saying that he doesn't use it to enhance the choreography and expression.
@@TheSkatingLesson I've always admired his head movement because it seems instinctual with the crescendos of the music. But I think what Alissa means is that his body carries the momentum of the music so beautifully, but his face and expressions do not. Yes he's clearly intense and I love that, but it starts to feel one-note as performance expression. Every program regardless of style lately, has the same emotional approach from him: intense and serious. He's not one to take on characters, and I wish he had done that more in his earlier career to build more versatility. His body seems to take on the character of the music in such a sophisticated fashion, and yet it doesn't extent fully to the soul like a Yuzuru Hanyu type. Shoma has been my personal favorite Japanese skater for many years, but I do agree he is a tad reserved where I wanna see him really explode from the spirit. That Piazzolla 2016-17 long program he did was sensational and captured him at his best, imo. But these last few years I agree...it's muted, minimalist, and in a way that only enhances this particular problem.
@deepfocuslens What did you think of Shoma's Ex: Come Together? I thought he was showing a lot of very emotional facial expression there. I tend to think this year's programs do not require such facial expression - rather it is supposed to shave off all and focus on his musicality and body movements and the beauty of the choreography,
Ilia Malinin's programs remind me of Sashka Trusova - no expression, no choreography, no emotions... focused only on jumping and getting points.
Both very dull to watch
lol have you seen the audience’s reaction? He got the loudest screams and most plushies from the audience. You guys better not just sit at home watching the live stream and bla blah. Get one ticket to watch him compete live and you’ll find how exciting that is. But anyway that’s your opinion.
@@yolandaguo7153 he won’t become a global superstar purely from people watching live. He’s not telegenic (eyes too close together) and has no sponsors even over a year after his first 4A.
@@potatochip-8 That means figure skating is a dying(or died) sport in America, sad… If he was Chinese or Japanese or even Russian, he would already get lots of commercials, endorsements, and sponsors.
@@yolandaguo7153 he is less popular than Nathan was at the same point in his career. At least Nathan had sponsors, more mainstream press coverage, like Time Magazine and NYTimes. Nathan even had Japanese sponsors and Ilia has none from any country.
When i saw Ilia in his new costume i thought with a jolt "my gosh! He looks so Russian!" 😅
Hes Russian with US passport.
@@AndrewSchwepps Ilia was born and raised in the US, so he is just as American as every white American here. Exclusionary anti-immigrant ideology is antithetical to the history and evolution of the US.
@@AndrewSchweppswell I mean if you’re gonna be like that no one is American except Native Americans lol
@@DSQueenie”Native” Americans crossed over from Russia.
@@Appaddict01 they were the first humans in North America though. If we’re gonna go all the way back we are all South African!
I love all the "Sandra should work with" suggestions. If she does, you guys need to get the credit, lol.
I could not agree more. And I also agree that the progress from last year is impressive. I’m all American and quite thrilled with him. A little weary with the Japanese clones. I do wish Shomo would do a program with more rhythm. Saw him do one many years ago in a Detroit Skate America. He is musical/has real rhythm. It doesn’t have to be classical.
kao sick during gpf
Russia will never stop doping. The fact that the ISU is too scared to enforce it is just a non-stop, blatant slap-in-the-face of the athletes/countries that do behave.
I wasn’t a great spinner, Alyssa .. and I couldn’t agree more. Spins do matter ! And, your spins are gorgeous ❤
Another great show thank you. I was looking forward to this! I don't connect to Shoma's programmes this year either. He is a stunning skater, but its Yuma I am invested in. The result was correct IMHO, but I didn't enjoy Malinin's programmes. Much credit to him though for pushing the sport technically. But I wouldn't go back and watch Malinin's programmes again.
Tastes differ. I have watched Ilia’s programs at GPF 50 times so far. But Shoma’s and Yuma’s, twice maybe.
@@yolandaguo7153 each to their own. The world would be a dull place if we all liked the same.
Come for the recap and opinions, stay for the free therapy session to get you ready for the week ahead!
Love when you have great episodes!!!!! Another job very well done!
Good point about Ilia !!! and for the record Hana Yoshida's free is about a crane which is Japan's sacred bird !!!
I think that program is amazing!
This video has been translated into Japanese and published for the Japanese audience. It is clear that Alissa does not like Shoma. She said, "Shoma doesn't want to give up 4F, because he was the first one to succeed in 4F. If she knew Shoma, she would never have said that. I felt that Alissa did not like Shoma in every word she said.
I don't think Alissa is anti Shoma. She just doesn't like Shoma.
Did it ever occur to you that the translation isn’t really capturing her tone?
Thanks for the shoutout for the Estonian skater Niina Petrokina :D I know you meant Nina Pinzarrone, but loved it nonetheless hehe (1:06:15)
My bad
25:43
Actually, both Mao and Jia are ineligible to compete in Milan because of the age requirement...
So they have to wait until 2029-2030. And we have no idea if Mao will still be able to execute ultra-c elements in 6 years
So I'd say they're equal in terms of senior potential, although Mao does appear to be more talented
Jia is eligible, Mao is not
I have always been a fan of Alissa Cziny's skating and now love her commenting here. I've been binge watching videos of her and Kurt's adorable act where she skates to "Skating" and he skates to many Christmas classics. It's outstanding and funny, and sweet. ❤
Ilia's jumps are beautiful, and he has great promise. Would love to see him work with Paul Wylie on posture, spins, and presentation. Disagree about American fans, I think he has full support, love him. Looking foward to seeing him develop. I think Yuma could win olympics, he plays the long game and he is also developing his own style.
Will Mao be allowed to compete at Japanese Nationals as a senior?
She competes at JNats as a junior. She can put 3A in her SP while it is not allowed in junior competitions. She can really challenge Kaori.
Dave, I wish you discussed the Junior Gan Prix Dance event too. Would love to hear your thoughts
I think Eteri did beautiful work helping Kiliakov politically.
@@TheSkatingLesson Thank you for responding. This is interesting. I feel like we need a section preceding any event giving insight into who knows who and the political ranking of the athletes so that we can understand how they scored.
You know I will defend Piper and Paul until my death haha I love them and I love the literary free they have this season (call me biased because I almost always love the themes they choose). I agree so much that Chock and Bates are truly amazing this year and I would say Laurence is a gift to the sport (she is in an elite tier of skaters with the likes of Savchenko, etc). La/La are looking very promising this season and I agree the transition between competitive eras that Charlene and Marco have managed is flawless. Such a testament to their abilities as skaters!
Global superstar? Maybe to the Russian market but he doesn’t have much appeal to the North American market. Does he even have any sponsors yet? Nathan already had a lot of major brand sponsorship in comparison.
He is becoming the most popular male skater in competitive field (I was in Beijing watching the final live). Chinese fans love him very much to my surprise , considering this is just his second senior season. North America market of figure skating? Does it exist? Didn’t it die long time ago? 😂The emerging big markets of figure skating are in Asia. Ilia can def be popular in Asian markets such as Japanese and Chinese(not sure about the Korean tho) market. I met many young girls who came to see him in the arena😂
@@yolandaguo7153 where are his Chinese and Japanese sponsors then? Nathan was sponsored by Japanese companies. Figure skating is not popular in China - not at all comparable to Japan or Russia … and he’s not popular in Japan compared to skaters from there.
@@potatochip-8 You’re correct that figure skating is not very popular in China, but still has much bigger market potential than North America. Skate America is held in a very small arena and most of the audience are grandmas… 2023 Grand Prix Final is held in a big arena, and almost full on free skate day even without one Chinese skater. The audience are also much younger. I came across many Chinese fans who spent thousands of Yuan traveling from other part of China to Beijing to see him compete, and they wanted to buy tickets to see him compete again at Four Continents Championship next month in Shanghai if Ilia is in. The popularity of Ilia will def grow in Japan as well if he keeps winning titles. Actually before he wins any major title, he has already been invited to many ice shows in Japan. Talking about the sponsors, he will def have that if he becomes the next olympic favorite before 2026. This is just his second senior season.
@@yolandaguo7153 Ilia’s agent Ari has connections to the skating shows and got him invited. It’s not an indication of him being super popular in Japan. The general public there has no clue who he is, as is the same in China. No way would he become similarly as popular as Hanyu in China. Nathan (also American) already had a lot of sponsors after his first senior season and more mainstream press coverage.
@@potatochip-8 Maybe he doesn’t get much press coverage in the US because of his russian roots? Most American people are russian-phobia lol. And he speaks Russian sometimes. I actually think his coach, his father, should speak to him in English in public. But that’s not a big deal. We all know America is an immigration country. I wouldn’t say his popularity will be the same as Hanyu. Hanyu becomes so popular in Japan and China mainly because he’s the first Asian men’s figure skating olympic champion. Ilia is not Asian. But considering this is just his second senior season and he hasn’t won any championships, his popularity is great already.
Kevin reminds me of Pogorilaya when he falls 😭😭 sorry not sorry 😭😭🤣 I get so nervous seeing him skate!
Me too, and my heart goes out for him, I like him the most. I saw him “live” once and Gosh, did he lit the ice!!! Really, not only the rink, but the whole city quarter around
Russ athletes are not neutral
Do you trust the ISU to rule that way?
They are not 💯
DAVE I'm shocked you don't know the Charlie Brown "Skating" song off the top of your head!
Yep, totally separate track from “Christmastime is Here” which opens the special. It’s lovely, I’ve always wanted to skate to it. Dave, you did know Charles Schulz was a skater himself, didn’t you?
Really like the input from a top skater.
Any chance Ashley Wagner would do one? Or maybe just an interview? She's so opinionated, which in my book is a great thing!
Both Chock and Bates and Piper and Paul programs appeal. That said Madison seems a bit like a a pretty picture vs. Piper really skates more.
Hana Yoshida has a lot of potential to be competition for Kaori but she's not a good sp skater and her lutz technique scares the crap out of me. I think her takeoff is too quick and she doesn't really stretch her free leg before picking. The entire takeoff just looks very rushed.
I tried to give Ilia a chance, but the kid just doesn’t have the it factor. Him and his agent Ari are pushing this narrative that he’s a superstar - frankly, it’s cringeworthy.
Legends are anointed by others, not by themselves.
Alissa is a FABULOUS and very informative, professional co-host! I love her technical and artistic reviews. She is a total professional. WOW. She is a natural. Thanks Dave for breaking down the GP Finals! You are the best.
"Skating" is my program music. I hope no one sees me do it after having seen Alissa's, lol.
Hana Yoshida’s 3A kind of scared me, she just throws herself so fast!
The fact that nobody chose DeBarge song Rhythm Of The Night for the rhythm dance ☹️. I would have chosen Rhythm Of The Night and I Like It. Has anyone ever skated to DeBarge songs?
I am very fed up up the Russian Russian Russian coverage in TSL. It's been dominating every TSL presentation. At the very least, it should be a footnote or mention at the end and not a lead story.
Hahahha. Russia makes everything more interesting
Then this probably isn’t the right channel for you. Russia has historically and will likely always continue to be a major player in figure skating. Their involvement or non-involvement impacts the sport.
@sleuthewild Me too. I honestly do suspect Dave is doing some covered lobbying for them, no matter his criticism. But he seems to have bought this old myth about their greatness
I can’t believe Lewis and Gibson FD is growing on me. It was such cringe when I first saw it.
Ikr?
I haven’t seen Alyssa in years. She’s all grown up now. I’m glad she’s still involved in skating.
She also appeared on the Skate America and Skate Canada recaps.
OMG I LIIIIIIIVE for "This time I know it's for real" so friggin catchy and that video is camp as all get out. It's such a kinda not super popular song but me and this bartender a a gay bar in the west village always play it and now the DJ plays it downstairs on the dance floor and I've heard it elsewhere, OMG if this was an icedance program I'd fall right the hell out my chair!
Why can't I find any videos of Kevin from the finals?
Opera browser. Set the VPN. Skating ISU channel.
So disappointed that there was no coverage of Neset and Markelov in your review. They are much better (at least for me) than the majority of seniors. Also, what on earth was that pairs coverage? Ten minutes rumbling about Deanna and that’s your pairs done? Boo!
Dave answered why I can't warm up to Ilia. I would like him if he just embraced being Russian. He is a young Alexei Yagudin with his comments earlier this year that he needs to be gay to improve his PCS combined with his swagger.
Believe me, Ukraine's war isn't forgotten in Europe...
is she referring to Rika? in 15:15
Ilia skating is ugly. Isn’t it? Why his component scores are 9 instead of 6?
Agree. Ilia is no Plushenko, Yagudin, or Hanyu. Perhaps eventually he will develop charisma and artistry, but it's not there yet
He is overscored in PSC and GOE. Took the tun away from that competition.
I think it is quite fair. He got 80 plus components, giving the time and good cheographer with the program he will improve
He got fucking 87+, also with a fall... It's ridiculous
I have one word "Trusova" why aren't her pcs scores under 6 (as per the ISU video in which she features, demonstrating skating skills that should score no more than 6).
Madison Chock has great lines, posture and body movement. However, her skating skills are still lacking. She is one of the weakest female ice dance world champions in over 20 years. The judges rewards their performance quality, no issue with. But the judges giving them 9.50 and 9.75 in SS is disgusting. They beat the Italians in Skating skills, which is an abomination.
Exactly... Honestly Italians should be like 0,5/ 0,75 points in front of C/B in skating skills and a full point if not even more ahead of Gilles Poirier... The Candians really have bad skating skills and someone still get 9s/9,25s.
I love Fear and Gibson b/c that chick? Fear? Oh... that's just her last name b/c besides that?! She has none. Also Lewis Gibson gives me short king vibes and I think he's so ridiculously good looking and such a little pocket elf that I want for the holidays.
Illia has swagger . Yes dave. He has charisma like few others have.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣